Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 25, 2004
Red Lights Flashing

Doug Noland of Prudent Bear started his weekly Credit Bubble Bulletin on Friday with the words “It has the feel of an unfolding bear market.” Martin Goldberg, author at Financial Sense, titled his Thursday market wrap-up “Something big is about to happen.”

For years the US has over consumed and under saved. Foreigners have financed the difference between consumption and savings so far, confident in US politics and the US economy. This is changing.

The US war adventure in Iraq has helped to push oil prices up 100% in only one year. This is an oil shock for the global economy. Take a look at this chart and predict where the oil price may go.

Oil chart
The Saudis say they are pumping whatever they can. Seeing these prices and imaginating the “love” the Saudis have for a Bush administration let me doubt that they are telling the truth.

According to Morgan Stanley the US needs to attract $2.6 billion per business day to stay liquid. Foreign buying of US equities slowed to an average of just $0.6 billion of US equities in the first seven months of 2004 – only 10% of the $5.7 billion monthly average in 2000-2003.

With less demand for US$ assets the Dollar will sink relative to other currencies. When the US$ did sink to $1.30 per Euro in February, the Euro Central Bank did threaten to intervene. This stopped the slide at that time. Last week the Euro finance ministers agreed to favour a stronger Euro. Finance Minister Nicolas Sarkozy of France said, “A strong currency is better when commodity prices are high.” With the Euro higher, oil will be cheaper for Euro countries. This will offset losses in exports.

The Japanese and Chinese Central Banks have not yet arrived at this conclusion. The current exchange rate is around 107 yen per US$. At 105 the Japanese Central bank will threaten to intervene, at 100 yen/US$ it will intervene. But what happens if oil goes to $70/barrel? Japan is importing all its oil and at a certain price point it will come to the same conclusion as Mr. Sarkozy. Better to buy cheaper oil than to waste money to keep the US$ up. At that point the US$ will go down some 25%.

With the US$ going lower who will buy US treasuries? Currently treasuries only give some 4% in interest. This is not enough to compensate for the risk of a sinking US$. Therefore treasuries will sink in value and their interest rate will go up. This may not happen immediately (see Japanese intervention), but the long term trend is obvious.

Rising interest rates are bad for the bond markets. There are trillions in bonds in the market. Fannie Mae alone has a book of business of $2.282 Trillion. It has sold Mortgage Backed Securities (MBS) of about this value and lent the money to US homeowners. Many of these loans are with Adjustable Rate Mortgages (ARM). When interest rates go up, this bubble will burst. Fannie Mae being under SEC investigation and in de-facto receivership does not help to keep ones confidence.

The stock markets show divergences. Since January the DOW is in a downtrend. But for the last two weeks the DOW did fall while the NASDAQ did rise. What is the rational of Google being evaluated at $46 billion when the company makes a profit of only $105 million? If you buy a Google share you will get an interest rate of 0.2% plus a serious downside risk. This is the sentiment of early 2000 and the result will be similar.

Often there are external events that trigger the fall of nervous markets. The US election is right at the door. If the election is contested, as it is likely, what will happen with confidence in the US democracy, in the US debt position, in the US markets?

Markets anticipate it is said. If this is true and the markets do anticipate problems after the election what will they do this week?

Comments

This is the optimistic scenario!

Posted by: Greco | Oct 25 2004 9:11 utc | 1

FALL…….and Bush is out like a January Christmas tree

Posted by: anna missed | Oct 25 2004 9:23 utc | 2

Something I did want to write about for a while, but didn´t had even facts to prove my thoughts.
US brand giants suffer a sales slump in ‘old Europe’

Many of the best-known US brands are suffering a sales slump in “old Europe”, raising questions about whether anti-Americanism is adding to local difficulties caused by slow economic growth.

McDonald’s said last week that a sudden deterioration in the German appetite for some of its menu items had all but eliminated its sales growth in Europe.
Coca-Cola, which makes 80 per cent of its profits outside North America, also had a sharp decline, selling 16 per cent less to Germans than this time last year. It is writing off $392m (£214m) to reflect impaired business assets there. Companies play down any political link, pointing to more immediate issues such as changes to recycling laws and a cool European summer.

My stepson’s clique decided, after the Iraq war started, to stop drinking Coca Cola and Pepsi and not eat at McDonalds. It looks like this has been effective.

Posted by: b | Oct 25 2004 10:22 utc | 3

Brad DeLong’s point of view:
The Current World Economic Situation
on whether or not loose monetary policy is especially dangerous as a creator of potential bubbles.
I did not read it yet.

Posted by: MarcinGomulka | Oct 25 2004 13:18 utc | 4

A nice fall in the $ would be a nice pre-election reality-based kick-in-the-butt for Bush…
Landslide, I’m telling you…
But Kerry will have a nasty mess on his hands, and he will need all the help he can get not to be blamed for it right from the start. No circular firing squads, please!

Posted by: Jérôme | Oct 25 2004 13:51 utc | 5

Key charts that deserve further discussion:
blaming China
My comment: China, Japan tilt the wage*currency advantage to their favor, cancel out adjustment mechanisms (Where is India in this picture?)
Brad asks: 30% dollar decline?
China gets capital-intensive components for labour-intensive processing. ( notice: Brad is a free trader. Krugman, too.) Foreign firms relocating, not Chinese businesses undercutting others.
My comment: China is driving up commodity prices worldwide. Polish bankrupt coal mines became profitable since coal prices doubled. Scrap metal prices went way up ( national newspapers have reports of bums stealing gutter covers, electrical lines) They must be building a lot infrastructure.
I think Brad overestimates Ricardian comparative advantage. China can produce everything industrial and is in the process of acquiring the know-how. IMHO, China assembles motherboards from Taiwanese chipsets, but does not assemble computers for export (casus Dell).
Do investors have confidence that fiscal sanity will return?
My comment: Kerry would face spending curbs from a Republican Senate. Bush does not.
Hint to Kerry: once in power, kill ALL Republican perks & pork barrells for the hardcore Red States. Balance the budget.

Posted by: MarcinGomulka | Oct 25 2004 15:02 utc | 6

Thanks for these economics-oriented threads.
Based on what is said here and elsewhere, U.S. currency collapse would be a drag on the global economy, no? For example, I do not see how such calamity would benefit china or india. Would like to know more how these pieces might fit together.

Posted by: slothrop | Oct 25 2004 15:12 utc | 7

Bernhard and others who know about these things-
it is my understanding that it will not be so bad for European nations for the Euro to rise because oil prices are rising. This rise in value would help to offset the cost of oil then, right?
However, what would be the expected outcome if exports are more expensive?
Also, from the article posted earlier about China and India…they want to sell to invest in infrastructure and (in the case of China, at least) in minerals, etc. to continue to power their modernization.
How does this affect Europe? I know, for the U.S. it helps to devalue the dollar (which is needed anyway for trade, right?) While it hurts when the U.S. wants to finance its debt…hurts Americans because interest rates will rise.
What I don’t understand (well, I understand it politically, but not rationally), is why the U.S. doesn’t start the push to alternative fuel sources while, at the same time, stop the pork for oil program in the U.S.
If alternative fuels are “localized,” wouldn’t that help to create jobs that also create infrastructure…new infrastructure? Couldn’t a program like that be the equivalent to Eisenhower’s interstate hwy program?
I realize that the right wing in America would not and could not go for decreased military spending on worthless hardware (pork for oil, part 2), but I don’t know why a dem couldn’t sell a program like this to the American people (because it has to be sold, no doubt) as an alternative to wars over resources…and to explicitly TELL AMERICANS that this entire issue relates to almost all of the problems in the middle east.
…the other problem, Israel and Palestine, is another issue. however, if America didn’t feel the need to have Israel as a base in the region, surely America would have some more leverage with the Israeli govt when it comes to that whole issue, too.
This sounds so basic to me. That’s why I wonder how many ways I’m all wrong.

Posted by: fauxreal | Oct 25 2004 21:44 utc | 8

I´ll try to answer some questions in a later comment but for now just drop some links I stumbled on:
China set to buy Canadian

In an exclusive interview with The Globe and Mail in Beijing this week, Chinese Foreign Minister Li Zhaoxing made it plain that the controversial $7-billion takeover of Noranda Inc. is just a small element in a much more ambitious strategy of investment in Canada’s resources sector to feed China’s voracious appetite for raw materials.
“Given our rapid economic growth, we’re facing an acute shortage of natural resources,” the Foreign Minister told The Globe.
“No matter how plentiful our natural resources, when you divide them by our population of 1.3 billion, the figure will be very small,” he said.

China is investing their US$ in resources. This will increase. How about your commodity investments?

Posted by: b | Oct 25 2004 21:58 utc | 9

To bad I didn´t put this into the original piece. This is the essence of the current stock market.
The last time the Nasdaq was making a new 30 day high and the Dow was making a new 30 day low at the same time(as it happened Friday 10/22/04)was March 10, 2000!
Does anyone remember March 2000 and what happend to their 401k or other investments during the following months?
Red Lights Flashing!

Posted by: b | Oct 25 2004 22:02 utc | 10

@slothrop and fauxreal
Any rebalance of the global economy system will now hurt everybody severly. But prolonging the current imbalances will hurt everybody even more. The right thing after the bubble burst of 2000 would have been a tightening by the Fed, i.e. higher interest rates and less money supply to get the “bad stuff” out of the system. Greenspan didn´t do so for political reasons.
it will not be so bad for European nations for the Euro to rise because oil prices are rising. This rise in value would help to offset the cost of oil then, right?
Yes. Europe will lose some % in exports and it will hurt, but domestic demand can stay alive if oil does not hit too hard. When the US consumers will see their heating bill next spring it will be devastating to consumer spending.

China and India want to keep their people alive and most of their people employed. This is their main concern. Without a suppressing and closed “communist” model, this can only be done by industrialising. We should welcome this.

What I don’t understand (well, I understand it politically, but not rationally), is why the U.S. doesn’t start the push to alternative fuel sources while, at the same time, stop the pork for oil program in the U.S.
You are not alone on this one. Bush’s program to “go to Mars” was stupit. The US needs a decade program for alternative fuels. Invest 100 billion for ten years and get rid of 200 billion of “defense” spending each year and the world and the US will be in better shape.
That is the key but AIPAC may not agree to such a strategy….

Posted by: b | Oct 25 2004 22:27 utc | 11

China: well, considering that the US had no clue about the Pakistani nuclear program until their first test, and had barely any clue about the Indian program, that they weren’t much better with both Iranian and N Korean programs, both underestimated, and that they were pretty misinformed about the Iraqi programs, both the real ones before 1991, which were underestimated before being cancelled in 1991/2, and highly overestimated recently, I’d risk a suggestion about China’s massive accumulation of resources these last 2 years. Common wisdom is that there’ll be a confrontation of some kind in, say, 30 years, between China and US. My suspicion is that they’re massively pushing for industrialisation to a point the Western intelligence, notably the US one, really has no clue, and that they’re aiming to be on par with the US in a far shorter time, say 10 years. In a very short time, their overall industrial capacity will be superior to the American one – partly thanks to bringing down entire factories to rebuild them there -, and when this will happen, it may well be too late for the US.
According to figures that appeared here some time ago, China increased by 15% its oil consumption in one year. Now, they’re buying so much they’re doubling the prices of some resources in just one or two years.
Oil is at 50+ $ to stay. And the Chinese know the production will soon go down, and are very busy making sure they won’t be left hanging when it happens.

Posted by: Hans Schmidt | Oct 25 2004 23:11 utc | 12

Hans,
unfortunately we can not look into their hearts to see the real motives of their elite. It’s either a pro-employment campaign to urbanise the poor rural population (which is really happening) or as you say, a grab for industrial capacity. What will happen to all those new-build factories when the US stops importing Chinese christmas toys? I have no idea how much they care about financials or unemployed riots. As long as everyone feels a little on a day better then yesterday, nobody will think about changing the regime.
My guess is that the Chinese basicily are trapped in a routine: if it feels good, do more of the same until it breaks. Maybe they will switch from a pro-export policy to Military Keynesianism. To stimulate the high tech sector.
But the US has a good stategic counter-plan: hold the oil reserves tight. Don’t steal, just be ready to stop the flow at any time. (casus Japan 1940)
If we lay all moral issues aside, regime change in Iraq was the correct move. Thus it preempted a Chinese move at a later time. Question is, how you hold Iraq?

Posted by: MarcinGomulka | Oct 26 2004 0:29 utc | 13

Wow.
Marc, you are talking about real politic now. I wonder what others have to say about your point that taking Iraq was the right move.
Strategically it makes sense if you can hold it. My issue with that question is that a good deal of the confusion now in Iraq seems to point to a strategy of messing shit up in the middle east. That leads to such chaos that the only result is a flattening attack with overwhelming technological might, of course that is the nuclear option.
I’m afraid that the goal of fuel-efficient vehicles is somewhat restrained by the weight of the lead-lined gas tanks required to run on radioactive hydrocarbons.

Posted by: jonku | Oct 26 2004 0:46 utc | 14

How do you “hold the oil reserves tight”? How, for example, could the US, even as an occupying force in Iraq, “control” the flow of oil out of the ground and into the marketplace? What are the costs involved? What would this action do to the price of oil that the US would have to buy from other places?
I’m certainly not an economist, and these questions are not rhetorical….

Posted by: alabama | Oct 26 2004 4:35 utc | 15

@ MarcinGomulka | October 25, 2004 08:29 PM
“If we lay all moral issues aside, regime change in Iraq was the correct move. Thus it preempted a Chinese move at a later time. Question is, how you hold Iraq?”
The only problem, moral issues aside, is that this regime change may be correct in real politik terms, but it was executed by real idiots based upon faulty intel …because they refused to consult with those who might actually know a thing or two about the region (according to the guy who wrote Imperial Hubris.)
The way this whole misadventure was created reminds me of the Larsen cartoon of the scientist with a entire chalkboard full of equations with one section which reads, “And then a miracle occurs.”
The same people who made this decision are the same ones who were part of Bush Sr.’s “Team B” who totally overestimated the Soviet threat because the “CIA had it wrong.” Yes, they did…there estimates were also over the top.
Of course, hawks use this to say, “See. This worked because we bankrupted the USSR, combined with support for the mujahadeen in Afghanistan….which also gave us Al Qaeda…but so what if there’s a little blow back, huh? got the job done against the evil commies.
that was also the rationale (evil commie stopping) for the US taking over the Vietnam mess — cause those dominoes were surely going to topple if Vietnam didn’t stay under our control…
that was also the rationale for installing Saddam in the first place, in the CIA assisted coup of 1963, and here we are full circle there. wonder how long before we declare the new govt our enemy?
It’s enough to make you an isolationist, at least militarily.
Our entire foreign policy seems to consist of trying to fix previous foreign policy decisions that were all based upon interference that resulted in horrific abuses to the people were supposedly were trying to keep free.
I dunno, but it seems like the “winner take all” attitude that has persisted for decades has been a part of the problem, not the solution.

Posted by: fauxreal | Oct 26 2004 6:48 utc | 16

I too am not an economist but I see the advantage of controlling the oil of Iraq. I believe control consists of determining how much oil is produced. Having the capacity to produce 4 or 5 million barrels per day means that if you open the faucet wide open you can flood the market and bring the price down, if you close the tap the price will go up. Since it is not your country you don’t have to worry about hurting the local population either.
I probably would have supported the invasion of Iraq had these been the stated motives. All this bullshit about fighting terrorism and bringing democracy to the middle-east is just that and nearly everyone knew it.

Posted by: Dan of Steele | Oct 26 2004 7:15 utc | 17

I don´t get it folks.
Why does China has to be seen as an enemy? An economic competitor, yes. But that is any country in this world. But why should China be seen as unfriendly?
Oil control by the US – again why? If you need oil, buy it. There are people desperate to sell it. To conquer a country to control oil is robbery and mass murder at large.
The economics of oil can be controlled on two sides. Supply is only one side and to control supply while not being King of Saudi Arabia demands to give up the values that are the base of our republics.
Why not control demand? If the US and other developed countries would cut their oil demand by half, nobody would be able to use oil for blackmail.
The Iraq war will cost the US $25 billion (already committed) plus $70 billion (see todays NYT) in 2005. The Iraq war is therby more costly than WW-1 (in adjusted US$). If this money would be used on alternative energy research, there would be an oil glut.

Posted by: b | Oct 26 2004 7:30 utc | 18

b,
I totally agree that your solution is the best or at least the better one. Problem is that it just won’t happen. People do the right thing when there are no other alternatives.
As long as there is greed and avarice in the world, high minded ideas will take the back seat. Believe me, I am not a warmonger and take no pleasure in this. I do however enjoy a pretty good lifestyle which has been afforded me by the economic policies of my country. So I guess I understand that those things did not happen by magic, rather it is a result of powerful taking from weak.
All things considered I would rather be on the strong side.

Posted by: Dan of Steele | Oct 26 2004 7:50 utc | 19

b,
Also, a part of what you suggested had already been proposed by Al Gore when he was vice president. He challenged US industry to create a supercar, using composites and other materials from the aviation industry to build an extremely light and fuel efficient automobiile.
That went nowhere because fuel prices were very low at the time. I see no way any of us can change the quarter to quarter profit/loss mentality of US big business. We will get alternative energy when it is much cheaper than oil.

Posted by: Dan of Steele | Oct 26 2004 7:57 utc | 20

@ MarcinGomulka
China considers coal liquefaction project with Sasol
BLOCKQUOTE>25-08-04 China is mulling a $ 6 bn coal project with South African company Sasol that could give the energy-hungry mainland an additional 6 mm tpy of oil. In September a Sino-South Africa team would begin studying the feasibility of building two coal liquefaction production bases in northern Shaanxi province and Ningxia autonomous region.
“This marks China’s strengthened efforts in finding substitute energy and its attempts to counteract price fluctuations in the global crude oil market,” Zheng Xinli, deputy director of the policy research office of the communist party’s central committee, was quoted as saying.
Coal liquefaction is the conversion of coal into synthetic fuels. Liquid and solid products from coal can be used for fuelling vehicles, power generators as well as yielding materials for chemicals.
China’s increasing dependency on Middle East oil and rising crude prices have spurred a new sense of urgency in the country to guarantee its energy supplies as the economy continues to expand at record pace.
A net importer of petroleum products since 1993 and of crude oil since 1996, China is reliant on overseas producers for one third of its demand. To reduce its reliance on foreign crude oil, China started coal liquefaction efforts in 2001 and has managed to keep down what are generally considered expensive production costs to $ 20 per barrel, Zheng said.
China is interested in coal liquefaction on a large scale as the country’s coal reserves of some 1 tn tons account for 70 % of its total energy reserves.

Posted by: Anonymous | Oct 26 2004 8:35 utc | 21

At the central ontological core of the dominionist world view is this “pass” that is givin to the instrument of power, to perform any&all actions including those that may violate known ethical&moral parameters, to assume the grand mission (illusion) of preparing humankind and the physical world for the second coming. Translated, and by extension, this is a methodology that relies on on the fundamental assumption that success in domination is expressed in the survival of the dominator over the other — rendering the other mute — and therefore non-existant — let alone the contrary. The sad fact that this tautology of action receives any legitimacy, be it in the religious or the political world is a sordid reflection on the capacity of the human imagination. And also it is clear that as the progress of such a tautology gains momentum the feeding frenzy of power in this respect, will always devour not only those that enable the power but also, eventually also those that are the perveraors of it. In many respects, this is what history is — and until history is seen as this, other alternatives will remain in the dark. As long as we see survival exclusively as the elimination of the other, be it for God, or the “strategic advantage”, or any other winner take all characterizations of culture, the story will remain the same ad-infinitum.

Posted by: anna missed | Oct 26 2004 8:45 utc | 22

As the subject of “control of oil” has cropped up again, may I remind you of the post I wrote on this a few weeks back:
Control of Oil Part I
Part II

Posted by: Jérôme | Oct 26 2004 8:57 utc | 23

Thank you for the links, Jerome, which in fact I perused when you posted them first. Then, as now, the question becomes the following: isn’t there something that prevents those who control oil (in the many ways you describe such control) from witholding it from the market completely, as it were? If so, does it matter? Or to put it another way, are there instances of oil being massively witheld? Movements of oil can be interdicted by military means, certainly, but that’s another question. To put it yet another way: during the “oil shocks” of the ’70’s, I had the impression that OPEC ran the marketplace. But then along came Marc Rich and others busily providing the spot market. So there would appear to be no such thing as cornering oil; and if you can’t corner a commodity, how can you be said truly to control its suppliers? Prompting another question: why would one or another provider then wish to opt out of the market (granted the various local issues of opportunity spelled out in your posts)? And given all the mediating processes involved in production and marketing, I can’t suppose that “an owner” can really buy the oil thus “owned” at a price below the one set by the market as a whole…..Or should I?

Posted by: alabama | Oct 26 2004 14:23 utc | 24

From anna missed above:
“As long as we see survival exclusively as the elimination of the other … the story will remain the same.”
Well said! This is a good time to mention the game theory concepts of the “zero-sum game” and the “non-zero sum game.”
In the zero-sum game, there is a fixed amount of some desirable thing, let’s say money. So for one player to win, the other has to lose. This does actually apply to some scenarios, for example the oil supply.
However the non-zero sum game rewards cooperation, at least as I understand it. So in the case of oil we can step back and see that cooperating to develop alternative energy sources, more efficient systems and so on is a net win for all parties. Better technology, “getting more for less” fuel.
This type of thinking goes on all the time in military planning and think tanks.
To ignore the non-zero-sum game and say “I want to be on the winning side” is to overlook the fact that this strategy can be successfully answered by the other players cooperating to defeat the first party.
Non-zero sum techniques defeat the zero-sum strategy.

Posted by: jonku | Oct 26 2004 16:09 utc | 25

from Dan of Steele-
“As long as there is greed and avarice in the world, high minded ideas will take the back seat. Believe me, I am not a warmonger and take no pleasure in this. I do however enjoy a pretty good lifestyle which has been afforded me by the economic policies of my country. So I guess I understand that those things did not happen by magic, rather it is a result of powerful taking from weak.
All things considered I would rather be on the strong side.”
This statement makes me want to cry. If everyone gives in to the idea that power will out, then, yes, it will.
People in America fought in the streets for rights you now consider basic and your due. But the power in America did not consider them your due. The same people who did not consider them your due, philosophically, are the same people in power in the U.S. now. When they start to fuck you personally, will you care then?
But why should anyone else care, if they’ve still got theirs?
With that attitude, abolition would have never occurred, and we’d still get to watch lynchings…only now on Fox.
Whatever. I’m ready to leave America, if Bush wins, and maybe if he doesn’t. I’m trying to put myself in a position to do so as soon as I can.
I don’t want to be one of the ones holding a gun to the rest of the world’s head because of fucking greed.

Posted by: fauxreal | Oct 26 2004 18:54 utc | 26

dan of steel
like fauxreal – i too found what you said to be unimaginably cruel, empty of heart(as the chinese might say) & & as bob dylan once sagely suggested “i’ve flown with wings & i’ve dined with kings & i’ve never been too impressed”
if what you said was your tuth & not a provocation – i can’t imagine the sadness that mustl lie at the centre of your castle
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Oct 26 2004 19:12 utc | 27

One day China will be the enemy, because at some point China will be THE energy consumer, like the US is now. Therefore it will behave in the same grabastic way, only with total disregard for ‘freedoms’, ‘world opinion’, etc.

Posted by: MarcinGomulka | Oct 26 2004 19:16 utc | 28

In February 2003, a month before the U.S. invasion of Iraq, a 101-page document came my way from somewhere within the U.S. State Department. Titled pleasantly, “Moving the Iraqi Economy from Recovery to Growth,” it was part of a larger under-wraps program called “The Iraq Strategy.”
The Economy Plan goes boldly where no invasion plan has gone before: the complete rewrite, it says, of a conquered state’s “policies, laws and regulations.” Here’s what you’ll find in the Plan: A highly detailed program, begun years before the tanks rolled, for imposing a new regime of low taxes on big business, and quick sales of Iraq’s banks and bridges—in fact, “ALL state enterprises”—to foreign operators. There’s more in the Plan, part of which became public when the State Department hired consulting firm to track the progress of the Iraq makeover. Example: This is likely history’s first military assault plan appended to a program for toughening the target nation’s copyright laws…..
And when it comes to oil, the Plan leaves nothing to chance—or to the Iraqis. Beginning on page 73, the secret drafters emphasized that Iraq would have to “privatize” (i.e., sell off) its “oil and supporting industries.” The Plan makes it clear that—even if we didn’t go in for the oil—we certainly won’t leave without it……
Adventure Capitalism

Posted by: Machiavelli | Oct 26 2004 19:43 utc | 29

fauxreal & remembereringgiap
Now hold on just a damn minute. My attitude has got nothing to do with it. I can agonize and wring my hands just as well as you can. What I said is what I see happening in the world, it is not my desire that it be so and I do what I can to make the world a better place. I try to be a good father and not preach hatred to my children, I try to understand other people and their points of view.
I am far less intellectual than the rest of you and no where near as passionate as you remembereringgiap, that does not mean that I can not observe how things seem to work.
When any of you give up what you have and go practice sustenance farming in some semi-arid land then you can tell me I am heartless because I prefer to have a few material things. I don’t know who said it but I too have been poor and I have been rich, I will tell you that rich is better.

Posted by: Dan of Steele | Oct 26 2004 20:18 utc | 30

dan of steel
i know the north of italy quite well – semi arid it may be – but is more of a paradise than life in the cities/jungles
it was the sentiment that you expressed dan – that made me feel horror – yes, that is the word – i have devoted my life to struggle – outiside or organisations but always with communities – & almost exclusively amongst the dispossessed. it is my preference, it is my duty & it is my heart. i could not live otherwise nor would i want to for it is amongst those people that i have found many things that i could have never found if i had remained within a literary milieu for example, or the world of theatre or of film
i came into this world with a hard heart, with a ‘fanatic heart’, as i’ve expressed to alabama & it is those people – who have never been abstractions for me – that have filled my life with whatever joy i possess
no doubt i have failed them from time to time as perhaps i have failed myself – but it is to them – to their ‘poverty’ that i write everything i do. it is to them that i can be corrected – it is to them that i owe whatever gifts i have & i will always be in debt to them
but the world of power & of means is not the world i want to live in – i want to survive – i am not a martyr through there may be renouncement in my soul – but survival means i do not have to diminish the other & i do all in my power to do the opposite
i do not think i am particularly passionate – i have never here or anywhere else made a case for my or anyone else’s more lofty existence – even with the people i argue with i have respect – but in the end i respect what woody guthrie had on his guitar -no dount written by cisco houston – this guitar kills fascists & yes those, that enemy i will fight to the day i die -at every level that is open to me
i do not think either i or fauxreal was judging you, dan of steele because judgement in that sense means absolutely nothing at all – as you said it is the exemplariness of our lives that are the teachers & the measure
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Oct 26 2004 20:38 utc | 31

I am glad that game theory has been mentioned, as well as the very important concepts of win-win vs win-lose. This made a good chunk of my PhD dissertation (entitled ” Game theory and its application to define what the independence of a country is. application to the Ukraine” or more simply, “the independence of Ukraine”) and is a subject very dear to my heart.
And it is a fundamental subject to understand the positive side of our economic system. I don’t have the time to go into it now, but for those interested, I would suggest the following readings:
Robert Axelrod “The Evolution of Cooperation”
Mathew Maly “Russia As It Is: Transformation of a Lose/Lose Society”

Posted by: Jérôme | Oct 26 2004 20:46 utc | 32

Thank you remembereringgiap
I do not have the skills needed to help the dispossessed, I see myself more like Boxer in Animal Farm. So I do what I can and am a firm believer in what “goes around, comes around”.
I would also like to dispel the thought that I am farming in northern Italy, I am not. I did however grow up on a farm in North Dakota and know something about it.

Posted by: Dan of Steele | Oct 26 2004 20:53 utc | 33

alabama
if a producer controlling a large enough part of the oil production withholds its deliveries, there could be a physical shortage as neither demand nor other supply are elastic enough in the short run to bring the market back to equilibrium even with a large price increase. This is of course only possible if there are no stockpiles available to supply the market in the meantime.
In the 70s, OPEC controlled a larger share of production than today (above 40% vs less than a third today) and their targeted boycott managed to create shortages. As we all know, there are products, especially in the energy sector (like electricity) where shortages are simply not tolerated by the population or the economy and even a temporary shortage creates a rela political crisis, if not necessarily a geopolitical one.
The West learnt the lesson, created stockpiles to prevent the effects of a short term (up to 3 months at least) disurpution of supply, and tried with some success to reduce oil demand (some with more determination than others, see France’s relentless nuclear programme). So today, you’d need a much longer boycott to have actual shortages. However, the effect on prices, especially at a time when spare production capacity is very scarce and demand is still very unelastic (individual transport and petrochemicals) would be very big – and apparently sufficient to create another political crisis in all consuming countries, where the consumers take it as a “human right” to have cheap and plentiful gasoline.
To reply to your question in other terms – today, nobody needs to withhold oil to get prices higher, because the demand-supply equilibrium is so close to the breaking point. Thus the prices go even higher, no because of an actual shortage, but simply because of the non-zero probability of any kind of supply-reducing incident (whether voluntary like a boycott or a strike or unvoluntary like ouragans in the Gulf of Mexico) which would send prices to double or triple the current level. Today’s 55$/b is made up of let’s say 35$/b as the current “equilibrium price” and a 20% chance that the price will jump (by 100$) to 135$/b – or a 50% chance that it will jump to 85$/b for any unforessen reason.
As b mentioned, Europeans now seem willing to tolerate a stronger Euro because that allows them (us) to get cheaper oil; this will certainly encourage the twin movement of oil up and dollar down, with oil/euro changing much less. Europe is willing to let the full consequences of the oil shock fall on the US, which is an another interesting dynamic to follow…

Posted by: Jérôme | Oct 26 2004 21:08 utc | 34

jérôme was that thesis at science po or ens or somewhere else altogether
my administrator/mediateur culturel is in fact an economist at least his training is that field – is it published
just curious – but i know as i warned someone else curiosity killed the cat
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Oct 26 2004 21:11 utc | 35

neither did i dan – i just listened

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Oct 26 2004 21:12 utc | 36

I think the cringe I personally admit to feeling when I first read Dan’s provocative comment was a cringe of recognition as well as sorrow. We — people who have the means and leisure time to sit at computers chatting in a literary way about the issues that trouble us — are clearly “winners” in a global game of very high stakes. I admit to a natural, but ethically troubling, sense of good fortune in having been born pale rather than brown, inside rather than outside the AngloAmerican power bloc, etc. — clearly it is better not to be bombed than to be bombed. It is better not to go hungry than to starve.
However, the triumph of brute power is not necessarily a given. Thought experiments are several: in the triumph of Gandhi’s non violent resistance movement in the face of heavily armed and funded State repression; in the interesting period in Japanese history when the culture managed to refuse the new technology of fire-arms; in any solidarity movement whose members accept risk, suffering, even death rather than betray their friends and comrades; in the eventually successful prosecution of the worst of the crime bosses who once ran Chicago and other major US cities. Brute power does not always win in the sense of getting its own way and bashing down all opposition; and it does not always win in the larger sense of actually achieving something worth having.
In all the rhetoric about the “inevitability” of “winners and losers,” of thieving and bullying, selfishness and brutality, there is an implicit riddle of scale. Let’s say we accept, for argument’s sake, the truism that selfishness and power will always carry the day, that human nature is rotten to the core, the strong will always smash and possibly eat the weak — and that we would sensibly and selfishly rather be on the winning side: therefore, imperial expansion is a winning strategy, and much though we might tut-tut over it and wish that things were otherwise, that’s just reality. Now, what happens if we scale that argument back down from international to intranational?
That would mean that, say, California should not negotiate or dicker with Oregon or Washington over water rights — it should just exercise its massive economic power and population power, and either starve them of trade or invade them outright, to secure total control over water from the NW. After all, that would be a winning strategy: we want the resource, it is essential to us, we must control it at any cost. And we could scale it down even further: if my neighbour has a 60 inch TV screen and I rather covet it, why should I not simply march over there, bash him over the head, and take it? After all, if I’m capable of bashing him over the head and thus “winning,” then it’s a winning strategy for me to take his stuff and improve my own standard of living. I mean, he’s not a relative or anything.
In fact, why should I exempt relatives from this reasoning? If my brother has a nicer house than I have, or I visit him and notice that he has a good stock of canned chicken soup of which my own larder is a bit short, why not just steal his soup, or kill him and inhabit his house? There’s a reason for the OT stricture about not coveting thy neighbour’s ox (or whatever else).
In other words, if it is pragmatic and correct in international terms to believe that “what’s right is what’s right for Me,” or that morality/ethics aka neighbourly/familial relations are just a wishful fantasy and have no real-world application, then where do we draw the line of scale, that delimits the scale on which such relationships are appropriate and necessary? Is criminal behaviour magically legitimate if only it is done on a grand enough scale?
One way to look at this is that at some point in human evolution we applied “rules” and standards of ethical conduct and reciprocity only to our own kin group. (“Me and my brothers against the world.”) People outside our kin group were fair game, people inside had to be treated according to certain conventions and had “rights”. Then we agglomerated into larger and more abstract groupings: tribes, castes, nation-states, language groupings, “races”. People outside our Whatever were fair game, but people inside had to be treated according to some kind of rules of fair play or ritual and had “rights”.
Some of us still think, consciously or un, that people outside our nation-state (or, I suspect, more persuasively outside our skin colour and language family, or outside our religion) are fair game: it is no sin to cheat or kill the Unbeliever. Some of us think that this way of thought is too deeply wired ever to change, that we can never agglomerate as human beings on any level higher than the nation-state or the religious cult/church/faith. Some would say we’re not even too good at that — we’re not too good at agglomerating in any size much larger than the village.
What does remain clear is that the behaviour of the US in Iraq would be flagrantly antisocial and illegal if it were mimicked by one neighbour on my block against another; it would be illegal and barbaric and flagrant if it were mimicked by my institution against another rival institution — UC bombs and invades Cal Tech to steal compute power! — it would be illegal and barbaric if it were mimicked by the State of California against the State of Washington; it would be illegal and barbaric if it were mimicked by France against Germany. And anyone who said, in any of those cases, “Well power will out, the strong will trample the weak, and there is not much we can do about it,” would be considered quite a strange person — because we have a long tradition of laws, restrictions, conventions, and so forth that have defined such abuses of power as illegitimate.
What’s at stake here in many ways is the fragile attempt at extending the conventions of civilised life upward to a larger scale: the scale of international relations. The Bush Regime categorically denies any such supranational legal structure. They are, geopolitically speaking, like a fanatical tribesman who believes that it isn’t murder if you kill one of that other tribe, only if you kill one of your own (or if one of those other people dares to kill one of your own).
This highly solipsistic morality — exceptionalism, failure to generalise — might be called the root of barbarism. There was a time when its smaller-scale forms were accepted — when it would have been laughable to suggest a future in which relations between France and Germany might be regulated by international law or the constraints of a federation-like body such as the EU. Imagine explaining the EU to a European living in the rather volatile 1700’s!
There was a time fairly late in the game when, e.g. Germans (under the Kaiser or that other nasty man) or the French (under Napoleon) thought that “power will out,” might maketh right, and there was nothing very much wrong with making a strong imperial bid for domination of the other guy’s territory and resources. I sincerely hope that we are not going to revert to such a state of affairs.
And I sincerely hope that there will be a time, may it come soon, when behaviour like invading someone else’s country to control the oil — even if their skin and hair is on average darker than yours and their GDP doesn’t put them in the Big League — is considered just as shocking and uncivilised and illegal as it would for me to bash my neighbour over the head and steal his TV. It is rational to pursue self-interest, but it is barbaric to pursue self-interest to the point of committing crimes, killing people, stealing things. Whether next door or across an ocean.
I have often said that Americans (all AngloAmericans and to some extent all G8 denizens) are trapped in the role of Mama Corleone. We are kept in style, living a life of luxury or at least security and ease, by criminal means — let us not quibble, the numbers are quite plain: the rest of the world hungers so that we may overeat, the rest of the world cannot afford kerosene to cook with because our SUVs and airplanes drive up the cost of fossil fuel. Whole forests fall and tribes are decimated so that we may build crappy furniture out of chipboard, or import cheap meat for vile McBurgers. Whole oceans are fished to extinction, condemning coastal populations to hunger, so that we can gorge on cheap fish. And I haven’t even got to the impacts of mineral and fossil extraction. Our advanced mercantile economies were founded on the massive infusion of stolen bullion, slaves, and other resources from the “New World” — a world some of whose cultures were actually far older than our own. Large numbers of us live on land very recently plundered — within living memory, almost — from its original inhabitants. The role of theft and murder in our pre-eminence is no more deniable than it is for the Corleone Famiglia, so let’s not mince words.
So, the question before us is, do we remain a pack of Mama Corleones — nice, kind, sweet, virtuous within our immediate purview — and resolutely blind and deaf to any clue about the Don’s business? Do we continue to believe that whatever benefits our Famiglia is OK, or at least inevitable, and that whatever the Don does to “protect his family” is justified regardless of who has to lose so that we may “win”? Or do we, like Michael’s young wife Kay, risk the Don’s wrath by “asking him about his business”? Do we reject the Don’s patronage in favour of a life possibly less luxurious, possibly less “safe” even, but one not based (or less based) on criminal proceedings? Do we try to “make the Family legitimate”? To make our business affairs conform to some conventional code of law and due process, rather than considering every rival an enemy and every conflict of interest a mortal struggle best resolved by swift and decisive murder?
It may “make strategic sense” to invade other countries, but it also makes strategic sense to knock over gas stations, deal hard drugs to kids, steal other people’s TVs, and sell our kids to whorehouses for a profit rather than accept the expense of raising and educating ’em. We have an ethical sense that prevents us from seeing those kinds of strategies as acceptable or desirable. When are we going to scale that ethical sense up to a radius of more than a few hundred miles? Now seems like as good a time as any.

Posted by: Anonymous | Oct 26 2004 22:16 utc | 37

oops that was me at 0616, but you knew that just by the sheer length of the post didn’t you… the bouncer let me in without my id card 🙂

Posted by: DeAnander | Oct 26 2004 22:18 utc | 38

De – go read Axelrod, if you haven’t, seriously. One word (ok 3): “iterated prisoner’s dilemna”.
RGiap – EHESS. I have the text available in French if you are interested.

Posted by: Jérôme | Oct 26 2004 22:27 utc | 39

I’m going OT, but it’s also on, in the wider scheme of things…
Dan- when I was born and going to school in the 1960s in the south, my grandparents did not have indoor plumbing. In America. They were also farmers and they had eight children…children were free farm hands. I bet you know this well.
Yet, as white people, we were far better off than many of the black families I knew.
I was chosen, while in elementary school, for “advanced” classes and was taken to college campuses and was told that I, too, could do something other than get pregnant at 16.
And that was true. Not that I’ve been a great success, but I’ve had an incredibly wonderful life, compared to what my prospects were when I was younger. My entire family and my larger community benefited from a govt that really cared, rather than spouted words and did nothing but pay off its base.
My marriage fell apart not too long ago and I have given up just about everything I had in order to allow my children to be with both parents and to stay where they are until they are old enough to make their own decisions. One of my children is high-functioning autistic, so this is a big deal.
I have no health insurance. I do not make a living wage, even as a Phi Beta Kappa student, because of where I live…for my children. I’m back in school and I’m trying to scrounge up a way to pay for a masters. If my car messes up, if I get sick, I am SOL. The stress of living in this way makes everything harder.
Where I live isn’t “Bush’s” fault, but believe me, if people were paid a living wage, my life would be better. If people had single pay health care, my life would be better. I’m never going to go to a fundie church for anything, so Bush’s “faith-based” bullshit makes me sick. Fundie bullshit was the problem, not the solution, when I was growing up.
So it’s hard for me to hear people talk about being pretty well off and they’ll let things happen…which was the way your post sounded to me.
Yet I know the feeling. I’ve felt the same way sometimes…it’s all too much…they don’t listen, why should I care.
But my children will have to grow up in the America AND THE WORLD I help to create, will have to deal with how my generation deals with energy and security and foreign policy, and I want them to have a better way than endlessly “fixing” bad policy based upon ideological hatreds and the greed of the richest of the rich.
And I want the rest of the children in this world to have the same hope for a sane future. And their parents, too.

Posted by: fauxreal | Oct 26 2004 22:36 utc | 40

jérôme
yes i would be interested & i think so would my administrator who follows your posts
deanander – exquisite/true/here/now/forever/breath giving strength
i’ve often thought that the people or individuals who are strong often have one weakness that is not in fact a weakness – it is doubt. & the strength of weak (as in bush/cheny archetypes) is that they somehow touch this achilled heel & we do our own demolition – they just have to begin the process but really reading posts like that & also of fauxreal i identify the natural beauty, the natural power, the natural good sense of us ordinary people living through extraordinary times
fauxreal – as with the post of deanander i find strength in your words feel something human & burning
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Oct 26 2004 22:52 utc | 41

@DeAnander et al
More abstract but in that direction The Sources of American Legitimacy in Foreign Affairs. Good historic description (debunking Kagan) and the essence:

There is no simple and direct route to the recovery of U.S. legitimacy. The years when the United States appeared as the hope of the world now seem long distant. Washington is hobbled by a reputation for the reckless use of force, and it is going to take a long time to live that down. World public opinion now sees the United States increasingly as an outlier-invoking international law when convenient, and ignoring it when not; using international institutions when they work to its advantage, and disdaining them when they pose obstacles to U.S. designs.
The United States has gone down a road in which the use of force has become a chronic feature of U.S. foreign policy, and the country’s security has been weakened rather than bolstered as a consequence. It is true, of course, that the American public does not like the idea of deferring to others, but it may come to see the advantages of doing so once it appreciates that enterprises undertaken on a unilateral basis must be paid for on a unilateral basis. Ultimately, however, the importance of legitimacy goes beyond its unquestionable utility. Certainly the leaders who earned the United States’ reputation for legitimacy in the post-World War II era believed it to be a good in itself. For its own sake, and for the sake of a peaceful international order, the nation must find its way back to that conviction again.

Posted by: b | Oct 26 2004 22:59 utc | 42

An Analysis of US Foreign Policy coming from some institute in India that I’ve never heard of before. Pretty well footnoted, as much as I’ve read so far. It will take me a while to read it all, thought I’d throw the link out in case someone else wants something substantial to chew on. Not so much a bar snack as a serious sit-down dinner.
R’giap, sometimes all it takes is “common” sense, as in the sense of commoners. Jerome I have made note of your author — am familiar with Prisoners Dilemma and have some notion what iteration might produce, but will look it up, sounds interesting.

Posted by: DeAnander | Oct 26 2004 23:11 utc | 43

A film you’re unlikely to see on US TV
There are several rather important documentaries from the last couple of years that most Americans will never see — even those Amis who know of them and want to see them will have a hard time managing this, unless they become available as NTSC DVDs. Damn! voluntary censorship is just as stifling as the official kind.

Posted by: DeAnander | Oct 26 2004 23:24 utc | 44

Are the Chinese starting to put financial pressure on the US?
Taiwan calls Powell speech ‘big surprise’- Secretary of State emphasizes ‘one China’ policy

TAIPEI, Taiwan – Secretary of State Colin Powell has angered Taiwanese officials and lawmakers by making unusually strong comments denying that the island is an independent nation and suggesting Taiwan should unify with China.

Posted by: Fran | Oct 27 2004 5:39 utc | 45

@Fran – you may be up to something

Another bear: Buttonwood: The parable of the cats

The dollar looks in danger of plunging, the price of oil continues to surge, gold is going up and world growth is slowing. Oh, and America is about to hold an election that could create as much uncertainty as it removes. Small wonder that there are a few growls from financial markets. Buttonwood has a nasty feeling that something worse is in store.

Posted by: b | Oct 27 2004 10:09 utc | 46

Thanks, fauxreal, for real.

Posted by: beq | Oct 27 2004 11:28 utc | 47

DeAnander is so breathtakingly eloquent, if I had known he had posted what he did, I wouldn’t have bothered with my dirt and grit online scratchings.
The funny thing is, in person, no one assumes I started out as a red dirt girl. In fact, they assume just the opposite. For a variety of reasons, I feel more affinity with my European ex-in laws than I do with my origins. No doubt that’s why I feel at home here at the Moon. Even so, my ex-in laws are also examples of the virture of a more social democracy too.
I do not understand why the nascar crowd doesn’t understand where their interests are best served in American politics, because it most certainly is not in Bush’s economic policies. Well, I do undertstand, according to Rich’s “What’s the Matter with Kansas.”
Style beats substance, even among those who would never open the covers of Vogue…

Posted by: fauxreal | Oct 27 2004 17:46 utc | 48

What I should have said in that damned earlier post was that if our government had trusted us with the truth and given us the real reason for invading, I would have been more inclined to support it.
That is something that bothers me a lot, this ever more accepted belief that we cannot handle the truth, that we must be fed carefully crafted half-truths and lots of outright lies so that we will act in our own best interests.
I agree with fauxreal that Deanander says this a lot better and I would like to thank him for his kindness.
While I am at it, thanks Fran for great links, the Taiwan story should be a lot bigger than it is. We were ready to defend Taiwan with nukes and the like and now they have been sold down the river. What is up?

Posted by: Dan of Steele | Oct 27 2004 20:20 utc | 49

Well Dan, hmmm… suppose Bush and Co had come to you 4 years ago and said, “Hey Dan, the SUV-driving vote is really important to us; we all know Americans would really howl if they had to change their energy-squandering ways in the least… but oil supplies are looking a wee bit tight, so if Americans aren’t willing to conserve quite a bit, we’re gonna have to invade Iraq and kill quite a lot of people to get control over an important source of supply. Now, Dan, would you rather we kill all those people and destabilise the region and turn the US into a pseudo-Spartan corporate-militarist repressive state in support of our war program, OR would you rather pay $7/gallon for gas, turn your thermostat down a notch and wear a sweater indoors in January, use public transit more often, and eat less long-haul groceries?”
I’d like to think that if they had put the matter that brutally, that honestly, that in fact you wouldn’t have been won over to supporting their war, but would have reached for a sweater 🙂 I mean, they weren’t saying, “it’s us or them, either they starve or we starve.” That’s guaranteed to bring out the worst in all of us — when it’s your kids or someone else’s kids faced with imminent death, the ol’ gene machine speaks strongly. But that’s not the case. If they were being honest all they could say is, “it’s our luxuries or their necessities: either we live a bit less luxuriously or they starve, get blown up, etc.”
I’m not saying everyone would cede some luxury rather than condem others to suffering and death — there are alway a hard core of selfish people (Marie Antoinette Syndrome) who would rather drive over a peasant than get the new gilding on their chariot wheels muddy. But would you, really, truly, have been inclined to support their invasion if they had explained its direct benefits to you personally, the ways in which it is intended to prop up a way of life, a consumption pattern, that isn’t all that long for this world anyway? Somehow I have my doubts 🙂 It’s true that being treated like a grownup is less insulting than being treated like a kiddie (shut up and colour), but some propositions are offensive, surely, even from one grownup to another.

Posted by: DeAnander | Oct 27 2004 21:33 utc | 50

BTW, there’s a certain opportunity cost in the US’ dogged insistence on fossil fuel supremacy: in pursuing it so obsessively they are falling behind in other technologies.

Ten years ago, American companies owned 50 percent of the market for solar photovoltaic panels – the key technology necessary for solar power. Today, says Thomas Werner, CEO of SunPower, a solar-technology company based in Silicon Valley, the United States has just a 10 percent share.
Yet even as the U.S. has lost its lead in solar, the worldwide demand for it, and other renewable power sources, such as wind, has surged. According to one report, solar and wind power generation capacity has grown by more than 30 percent annually over the past five years. That’s the kind of growth market high-tech venture capitalists and entrepreneurs are normally desperate for.

from the article ‘How George Bush Lost the Sun’ at Salon.com, you may have to subject yourself to ads to view the article.

Posted by: DeAnander | Oct 28 2004 6:26 utc | 51

@ DeAnander
First and foremost I am completely against invasions of any kind. I will however fight to defend my home and family from people who wish me harm and I believe this is my right and duty.
The reasons you state are the actual ones for this invasion and I am completely against them and was from the beginning. When I saw the twin towers in flames my comment to others was that now many innocent people would have to die. I knew that there was going to be revenge and nothing I could say or do was going to stop the troglodytes from extracting their pound of flesh. I am labeled “palestinian” or “raghead lover” by many of the people I work with and they probably do not really trust me because I am often critical about our motives.
Yes, I would like to be treated as an adult and that really was the kernel of the statement. Sometimes you do have to do things that are very unpleasant and though we try to be kind to others it is foolish to believe that there are not those who wish you harm.
I don’t want it sugar coated, just lay it all out and let me decide whether it is worth doing. Of course this will never happen because if ordinary folk could decide whether to go to war or not, there would no longer be war. The people in charge know this and have stated so clearly…..

“Why, of course, the people don’t want war,” Goering shrugged. “Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.”
“There is one difference,” I pointed out. “In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.”
“Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.”

Posted by: Dan of Steele | Oct 28 2004 8:05 utc | 52

Jérôme,
My Master Thesis in Economics was: >>Algorithmisation of the Shapley-Shubik Index. Application for the analysis of Poland’s position in the EU-Constitution negotiations.<< BTW, have you seen that: 10 Nobel Laureates against Bush
Akerlof, Arrow, Kahneman, Klein, McFadden, North, Samuelson, Sharpe, Solow, Stiglitz

Posted by: MarcinGomulka | Oct 28 2004 15:50 utc | 53

@Dan I had a feeling that was exactly your position, just checking 🙂 and I agree with you that I will however fight to defend my home and family from people who wish me harm and I believe this is my right and duty. What’s bugging me is that I strongly believe that BushCo means all of us — me, my home, my hometown, my family, not to mention millions of other people’s families — great harm, and I am not sure how to fight.

Posted by: DeAnander | Oct 28 2004 16:14 utc | 54

De
I come to sites like this one to learn how to fight the bastards. I think I have to understand what is going on before I could do anything at all. I don’t want to be the Black Knight yelling “Come here, I’ll bite you”
Thanks to you and many others I believe I am getting a glimpse into this crap. I will tell you that it is not pretty.

Posted by: Dan of Steele | Oct 28 2004 16:26 utc | 55

@Dan you know the catch phrase “not a nice monkey”? someone used it once, I forget who, to describe the sorry-ass human race. And when I see Chimpy in still or video the phrase irresistibly scrolls across my mental text-crawl space. I spent some of my youth yelling “Come Here I’ll Bite You”, but that’s what youth is for. Now I wish to conserve my strength and try to “strike the root”. Problem is, we seem to be in a mangrove swamp of nastiness and I’m not sure which root is which or whether any of them is vulnerable to my poor tools of reason and verbiage. Feeling very much in solidarity w/you at this moment.

Posted by: DeAnander | Oct 28 2004 16:33 utc | 56

Here is a premise you can kick around if you care to: The current ruling cabal has determined that reason and verbiage cannot/will not stand in the way of their conquering the world.
It makes sense that mere language and logic be irrelevant. The true rationale for the torture, murder, theft going on is impossible to see by us simple mortals who have been raised and trained under a different set of standards than have these reptilian usurpers. I am now constantly jolted by attempts advanced daily by thinking intelligent humans to categorise these crimes in a familiar judicial context. They are missing the point.
It isn’t like you have the right to complain that your rights are being violated. It isn’t like the perps expect to have to defend themselves before a jury of their peers. None of this applies here. The irrelevance of law has been openly blatantly clearly stated by the Cheneyites repeatedly, and yet we cling to the hope that somehow in the end they will come around and be civilised.
We are in a war to the end and no rules apply. Mother Earth cannot support her billions of greedy inhabitants; only the strongest and wisest will survive. Wake up.

Posted by: rapt | Oct 28 2004 18:37 utc | 57