Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 24, 2004
Open W. Thread

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They tried this little trick U.S. to Loan Strategic Reserve Crude Oil to keep the curde prices from rising further. Prices did go down about $1/barrel and jumped up again the same day: Oil Prices Rise Again As Production Lags.
The chart says $52.50/barrel end of next week. Mr. George W. Bush, your Middle East friends do not like you anymore. Please tell us why.

Posted by: b | Sep 24 2004 19:52 utc | 1

Aljazeera has a new oil price article Is OPEC losing control over oil price?

Investec Bank analyst Evers agrees. “These US inventory figures tell me that Saudi is struggling with light crude [production]. The stocks that they said would make it to the markets just don’t seem to be appearing and demand is far far stronger than the figures say. It’s a fact of life. This doesn’t bode well.”

Repeated promises of increased production by Saudi Arabia and OPEC have failed to calm the markets. Some even doubt those production increases have occurred at all as inventories fail to fill. OPEC has already admitted that its members were breaking their own stipulated quotas.

Mr. George W. Bush, please tell us why crude is going to $70/barrel end of October?

Posted by: b | Sep 24 2004 20:34 utc | 2

While I am not mr. Bush, I will try to answer your question B. It is because speculators have become dominant in global oil markets with their hedge funds and instruments of speculation. They blame instability and bid the prices up, then turn around and bet prices will go down. They make money both ways.
It is pure playing in money. Oil is being minipulated to suck the lifes blood out of the people of the globe. Now, how many speculators are there comepared to the global population. Not many. A minority of poeple are f—— the rest as always.
Until people rebel against Bushie and his speculative friends bend over.
These hedge funds on this scale is a fairly new thing. They are the reason the market has been flat for four years.

Posted by: jdp | Sep 24 2004 22:00 utc | 3

my friends & comrades
unfortunately i feel quite, quite ill this night but when i see the face & hear the words of the butcher rumsfield i feel a hatred, a pure, refined hatred as i rarely feel & have felt
i remember only two other times in my life – that of nixon announcing the bombings of hanoi haiphong & the bombing of moncada palace with the poet leader salvador allende assasinated
these men, whom ms klein so accurately describes are less than men – they are beasts & they are holding the world hostage to their terror.
there is not an ounce of decency, human decency in them
they are literally & without question the scum of the earth – they merit neither our prayers nor any respect for their words. their words, as are the words of all tyrants full of a hatred of ordinary people because it is only ordinary people who can exhibit extraordinary courage & beauty
the neocons are just the last in a line of people haters & be in no doubt about that – just the physical body language of a bush a cheney, a rumsfield or rice express their open & clear disdain for us
willy reich would have had a field day with their character armour – for they are the death instinct articulated
but who would believe it would come to this – fools, absolute fools who cannot see this side of next week clearly let alone a year or a decade shit all over the place including in their own nest & from that shitty little nest fly all the halliburtons & their criminal strategists
no i have rarely felt this hatred but i feel it for them & forever
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 25 2004 1:20 utc | 4

Rememberinggiap:
I’m not intending to be glib, but there are lots of reasons to dislike that smarmy fool Rumsfeld. What exactly set you off? Was it his accidental slip about the Iraqi elections?
JDP:
I believe that oil speculation is only a small part of the rise in prices. Click here for a good article on the issue. One of its most important points:

A near doubling of crude prices over the past 18 months amidst record OPEC production can no longer simply be ascribed to the work of idle investment bankers, simply turning their speculative attentions away from dotcoms and telecoms to “the black gold rush”. The reality is that dramatic changes in underlying fundamentals have gone unnoticed for years by the majority of investors. The world is now losing more than a million barrels of oil a day to depletion – twice the rate of two years ago – according to a new analysis published this month in Petroleum Review, the oil and gas magazine of the Energy Institute in London.

Gotta love that dismal science.

Posted by: Harrow | Sep 25 2004 1:41 utc | 5

yes, the caligula like emarkes he made about the elections are the straw that have broken the camels back
that permanent sneer on bush’s face
the absultely stupid sub sub subhuman version of the already imbecilic gary cooper by rumsfield
that false air of learnedness behind wolfowitz edward teller induced glare
that insufferable bully like for of cheney
those house servants rice & powell as undignified as a human can be & a mockery of the grander of a w.e. dubois
the thug administrators garner bremer & the killer negroponte, the sociopaths amitige, ridge & tenet
as groteseque as the worst burlesque
these people are ugly, very ugly indeed

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 25 2004 2:02 utc | 6

(sorry i seem to be typing with my knuckles)
yes, the caligula like remarks he made about the elections are the straw that have broken the camels back
that permanent sneer on bush’s face
the absultely stupid sub sub subhuman version of the already imbecilic gary cooper by rumsfield
that false air of learnedness behind wolfowitz edward teller induced glare
that insufferable bully like form of cheney
those house servants rice & powell as undignified as a human can be & a mockery of the grandeur of a w.e. dubois
the thug administrators garner bremer & the killer negroponte, the sociopaths armitige, ridge & tenet
as groteseque as the worst burlesque imaginable
these people are ugly, very ugly indeed

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 25 2004 2:18 utc | 7

From ‘Generation Reagan,’ the thoughts of a young Republican, at redstate.org:
“When history records in stone and metal the impact my generation had on the world, the monument built will be of the scope and grandeur of the World War II Memorial rather than the depressing, infuriating, almost apologetic Wall.”
Need I say that this American, in his late twenties-early thirties, is not in the military -in other words, not a direct participant in the glorious confrontation for which he anticipates a glorious memorial? Soldiers concern themselves with a lot of things. Future memorials are not among them.
I visited the new WWII memorial this past summer with my maternal grandmother, my grandfather (in fact, both of my grandfathers) having fought in that conflict. We went to dinner afterward and she asked me what I thought of it. I thought it was hideous. A neo-Greco-Roman monument on steroids. It is a monument to our present-day pretenses to martial glory and grandeur, not an eloquent and moving statement on war and sacrifice and suffering past. Not even an interesting visual statement on that particular victory. And certainly not a compelling homage to the millions of citizen soldiers who won that war.
On the other hand, I very much like the Vietman memorial, and think it may be our finest. Interesting, that.

Posted by: Pat | Sep 25 2004 2:46 utc | 8

You say it like it is r’giap. It’s what I’ve been feeling and wanting to be able to articulate as well as you just did. Say it again and say it more often. That’s the NLP I’ll welcome.
Except for Iraq’s 200 B barrels of proven untaped reserve, the world has hit the peak where our energy availability, and everything that depends on it, are in a permanent (baring an energy miracle) period of decline. The growing GNP over the era of rising oil production is now reversing and the world is sliding down the inevitable decline slope of the GNP and going to have to endure all the ramifications. If the our empire could only secure Iraq’s reserves we could stave off the inevitable for maybe another 5 years. This is where I think their minds are directed.
The despots are trying to hold on and know that when the oil filled petri dish starts to evaporate, the growing number of peasants with emptying bellies are going to start to react. And not favorably toward them. There’s still far more of us underlings who are being screwed that the elite who are screwing us.
Rising oil prices are anathema to the short sighted oil elite. They hope to be able to keep us at bay until… what then? They don’t know.
But I think we do.
This to me is not totally bleak. We have developed, stored and made available the plethora of information and wisdom gleaned and passed down for eons by our species. We have the potential to affect the direction of this bifurcation. We here on this Moon are a part of that whether we yet realize it or not.

Posted by: Juannie | Sep 25 2004 2:48 utc | 9

Re: My 10:46 post:
The most appropriate monuments to war, of course, are cemetaries. And what cemetaries have in common with the Vietnam War Memorial is the naming of the lost.

Posted by: Pat | Sep 25 2004 3:21 utc | 10

Pat,
I find it very puzzling in the midst of war to be ruminating about memorials to it as this young Republican is.
After all, isn’t that ONE memorial you really don’t want to end up on? It seems kind of morbid to me … it seems more appropriate to let a war end, ponder on its meaning (in this case, absolutely none) and then come up with an appropraite design.
I agree with you about the Vietnam Memorial Walls. Very appropriate, very powerful, very moving. But then I may be prejudiced because it was the war of my generation and I have friends listed there.

Posted by: SusanG | Sep 25 2004 3:33 utc | 11

Jim Kolbe the openly gay republican congressman from Arizona, on having to divert Iraq funds from reconstruction to security:
————-snip————–
“Reducing supplies of potable water and increasing sewage will adversely affect the health and well-being of millions of Iraqis, but I see no alternative,” said Rep. Jim Kolbe, chairman of the foreign operations subcommittee that held the hearing.
——————————–
No alternative but to adversely affect millions of Iraqis?
Which of course will make Iraqis more hostile.
Leading to the need for more security and less reconstruction.
And this is the leadership that is going to win in November?
As Bernhard said a while back:
Would someone please drop a brain on Washington?

Posted by: koreyel | Sep 25 2004 3:43 utc | 12

Speaking of Murder Inc i.e. Bushco using NLP they’ve also been using visual hypnotic methods in a way that I have thought was a little too obvious but whatever works; W’s “psychedelic” tie during his infamous press conference a few months ago. the “wallpaper” backgrounds with repeated messages whenever they give public appearances, his opening for miss Bush using the baseball jerseys w/41 on all of them, and way back, w/ the Gore commerical w/ the rat in it…
too many examples to mention at the RNC but the unspeakably weird
background pattern they used during Laura Bush’s speach was pretty amazing.
Even more amazing than the absence of any discussion about these methods by anyone of importance.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 25 2004 4:05 utc | 13

@SusanG
My father was in Vietnam during the Tet Offensive. A young, forward artillery officer and jack-of-all-trades, at the time. When he returned home the first thing his father said to him was, “If you go back, you’re a damn fool.” My father didn’t disagree.
He went on to serve twenty-seven more years in the Army (without another tour in Vietnam) and was of an extraordinary generation of Army officers, determined that there should never be a repetition of the unforgivable past.
That generation has passed flag officer rank into retirement and a new one has taken its place.
Here we are.

Posted by: Pat | Sep 25 2004 4:06 utc | 14

Susan:
After all, isn’t that ONE memorial you really don’t want to end up on? It seems kind of morbid to me …
Not so much morbid, I think, as megalomaniacal. Maybe that’s too harsh… hubristic. Kind of like an ambitious conqueror (or as Pat points out, someone living vicariously through soldiers) planning his glorious monument before the war has even begun. Of course, I assumed this individual was thinking of the Iraqi-Irano-Syrian war. Luckily, for those of us who won’t die in this holy war, the Mall is running out of space for titanic, Albert Speerian monuments. Something more somber and reflective for the Iraq debacle will be necessary.

Posted by: Harrow | Sep 25 2004 4:09 utc | 15

Maybe…just maybe…
Breaking the Veil ?
Bucky Fuller said way back in 1965 that right now we have the capability to feed, house and clothe everyone on the planet sufficiently that everyone would live like billionaires. So why hasn’t this happened? Because those at the top want remain the exlusive shareholders of such graces. To sacrifice their exclusivity would be to sacrifice power and control. Since fear ultimately rules these people, that fear will keep them stuck in this struggle for power. Unfortunately for them, their days of power and control are coming to an end. Despite the signs all around of us of increasing repression, surveillance and control, there is no way the system can sustain itself much longer.
Aung San Suu Kyi once said “It is not power that corrupts but fear. The fear of losing power corrupts those who wield it, and fear of the scourge of power corrupts those who are subject to it.”
Nothing can be solved when you exist in a state of fear.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 25 2004 4:55 utc | 16

From The Interrogators, by Chris Mackey and Greg Miller:
A few days later, when I was following up on some questions with the Runner, I brought him a book from a collection our troops had retrieved from a house in Kandahar. They were tourist books about Afghanistan, from the mid-1979s, older than most of the soldiers I was surrounded by. The faded color pictures depicted an Afghanistan before Soviet intervention. There were pictures of the Hotel Intercontintential, with its bar and pool. There was a picture of an Afghan tour guide wearing a New York Mets hat. One photo showed a line of Wesern tourists riding donkeys down a moutain path. Ther were also photos of bazaars, uniformed schoolchildren, and the Bedouin-esque “belly dancer restaurants,” all relics of a formerly energetic, optimistic society. I didn’t know much about the troubles that led the Russians to invade, but the book left me with the perception that this crappy place ahd been derailed from a brighter future.
I let the Runner look at the book while I was jotting down some information he had provided. He was taken by it, asked me all kind of questions about it that I couldn’t answer. Long after our interrogation, when I would pass by the main cages late at night, he would spot me and approach the wire. “Can I see the book again?” he would ask in Pashtu, motioning his hands as if her were flipping through a book’s pages. One time, in a fit of compassion, I had the guards take him upstairs. I sat in a chair and wrote a report, unrelated to him, while he flipped through the pages again. There was no translator, so I could not undrestand the questions he asked me. I used that old book several other times, and it always provoked a response that demonstrated to me these people had a desire to be part of a real country. They wanted lights that worked and food on their plates and hotspitals with doctors and medicines. Instead, they had gotten swatted by the wreching ball of history and their own self-inflicted wounds. Some of them were the enemy, full of hate for Americans like me. But often it was easier to feel sorry for even those guys than it was to hate them back.

Posted by: Pat | Sep 25 2004 6:13 utc | 17

Is this the next minefield Bush has to cross?
Remarkably, little of Bush’s dealings with Germany has received public scrutiny, partly because of the secret status of the documentation involving him. But now the multibillion dollar legal action for damages by two Holocaust survivors against the Bush family, and the imminent publication of three books on the subject are threatening to make Prescott Bush’s business history an uncomfortable issue for his grandson, George W, as he seeks re-election.
How Bush’s grandfather helped Hitler’s rise to power
For quite some time I have been avoiding any disscusions about the US with a friend of mine, because her categorical response would be “all Americans are just plain stupid”. Now she has lived and traveled a lot in the US. After reading the following articles I am on the verge of agreeing with her, it’s people like you of MoA who keep me from agreeing wholeheartedly with her.
Demonstrating that stupefying ignorance can be bipartisan, another Ohioan interviewed for the same article said she is against the war in Iraq (news – web sites) because, like 42 percent of her fellow Americans, she thinks Iraq was behind 9/11: “We shouldn’t be over there building them back up because they didn’t build our towers back up.” She is wrong on so many levels that it makes my brain hurt.
TRIUMPH OF THE STULTOCRACY
CALLER (in a very airy voice): Good morning. I’m going to vote for President Bush because, after all, you know, God made us there, you know, in His image, free from any black color and all [Host looks up, surprised]. The only church that Kerry can go to is where they say the Black Mass, and that is in the Merriam-Webster Pocket Book dictionary, where it says that that is the devil worshippers. [Host looks uncomfortably off-camera, at producer?] I would never vote for, you know, Senator Kerry.e every effort to give you the same booth again, or very nearSo, definitely, I would never vote for, you know, Senator Kerry.
the rest is here

Posted by: Fran | Sep 25 2004 6:41 utc | 18

The Financial Times via NYT is debasing the myth of Zarqawi The devil America knows

apart from reports that he once lived in an al-Qaeda camp in Afghanistan, no concrete evidence to prove Mr Zarqawi’s involvement with al-Qaeda – or that is even alive – has emerged.
Jordanian-born Mr Zarqawi and his group have undoubtedly committed atrocities. But experts say their powers are exaggerated and a Zarqawi myth is being deliberately created.

Islamist experts in London who are familiar with al-Qaeda figures say they know little about Mr Zarqawi and regard his growing notoriety as “an American story”

Posted by: b | Sep 25 2004 7:17 utc | 19

@ Fran
My parents live in one such mentioned, economically depressed counties in Ohio, that votes resoundingly republican. While they are politically informed (& democratic) they too are vexed. My dad has done political cartoons in the local papers since his retirement some tears ago, and has often hit the stone wall (with the editors) on content critical of the republican agenda — they now just refuse, to even consider his antiwar pieces.
There is a (strong) tendency to discount this phenomena, of people voting their own economic self interest down the river, in favor of some pie in the sky social agenda, as being stupid muskrat trapping hicks. I think this is a wrongheaded approach, which incidentally, only feeds the mistrust these people have developed of the educated – the elite – those that wish to impose their values on them – from those that think that they are better. In a nutshell, I think these people have become victimized, on probably every political, cultural, and social level possible. From the city bound flight from the dimishing rural (farming,mining,etc.) opportunities, the democrats abandonment of unions and regulation, to the never ending media assault against more traditionally held values. My town back there has also suffered the Wal-Mart melt down, or should I say burn down, as the Mart drove the local business out, rents and mortgages cant be paid, so in came the arsonists, an so the town just slowly burns down. All this is to say that many of these people, essentially, have been set adrift with family life dispersed, diminishing employment, and no clear sense of the future — it should not be suprising that they should both seek refuge in both religion and patriotism, no matter how misguided. In some ways it’s an almost rational response to their dilemma, if did’nt only dig their hole deeper.

Posted by: anna missed | Sep 25 2004 8:33 utc | 20

anna missed, thanks for your comment. I can to a certain degree emphasize when you explain it this way: In some ways its an almost rational response to their dilemma, if did’nt only dig their hole deeper.. What is so challenging is not their digging their own holes. I could accept that, but that they may pull us down in to their hole. I think this creates this ‘damn’ feeling of helplessness, not being able to vote or influence the elections in anyway and though, it becomes easier to declare all Americans as stupid.
As I said in my former post, what keeps me from falling in the same trap as my friend is posts like yours and other posters here on MoA and the Annex.

Posted by: Fran | Sep 25 2004 8:53 utc | 21

Some reads from todays press:

SEAL – the US finest soldiers: 3 Commandos Charged With Beating of Prisoners just some beating – unfortunatly the prisoners died.

Rajiv Chandrasekaran of WaPo takes big shot at Bremer and civilians in the Pentagon Demise of Iraqi Units Symbolic of U.S. Errors – Rebuilding Hindered by Past Mistakes

Experts See a Wider Threat – The network has evolved into a looser, ideological movement that may no longer report to Bin Laden. Critics say the White House focus is misdirected.
Long compilation on the organisation of Islamic terror groups – good overview.

More Iraqi civilians killed by U.S. forces than by insurgents, data shows

Operations by U.S. and multinational forces and Iraqi police are killing twice as many Iraqis – most of them civilians – as attacks by insurgents, according to statistics compiled by the Iraqi Health Ministry and obtained exclusively by Knight Ridder.

Posted by: b | Sep 25 2004 9:26 utc | 22

It’s getting even worse!
DISEASE IN IRAQ – Hepatitis Outbreak Laid to Water and Sewage Failures

Posted by: Fran | Sep 25 2004 10:26 utc | 23

War on Terra memorial? Isn’t it too presumptuous? Like, say, Mussolini planning his triumphant entrance into Alexandria, riding a white horse?
Oil: well, the really bad news is that most Chinese badly want a car, because it shows how they’re part of the rising middle-class, and even moreso it would show to everyone that China is now a real powerhouse. They’re now banning the once-ubiquitous bikes from the major cities.
Zarqawi: I’ve heard that basically he was so full of himself that no Al-Qaeda leader in Afghanistan wanted to deal with him and he quickly left in search of some areas where he could have his own tiny group. Looks like he may just be an opportunist who found that Iraq was one of the only places where AQ wasn’t already all over the place.
Anna missed: The logic would say that these people are ripe for the communist party. Except there’s no serious communist party in the US. As you said, they have no solid future, and this imho is one of the biggest sins of the Democratic party: they don’t have a plan, a vision of the future, except “fixing the few flaws of the current system” and promises about a booming economy – a good economy never made a vision for the future of a society. Of course, most of the world’s Left suffers from this, it’s not limited to the Dems.
“Operations by U.S. and multinational forces and Iraqi police are killing twice as many Iraqis – most of them civilians – as attacks by insurgents”
I suppose Bush (or Allawi) will not state the US troops are anti-Iraqi…

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Sep 25 2004 11:06 utc | 24

There we go again, the sky is falling and we are running out of oil. While we may be falling a million barrels a day, underlying reasons exist.
First, speculators are the main reason oil prices are high. Second, many large areas of oil in the middle east are untapped. The southwest coast of Saudi Arabia has not ben explored completely. When Iraq is statble, which it will be someday, it has 180 billion barrels of “known” reserves, and the rest unexplored. There could be 300 billion barrels of recoverable oil in the canadian oil sands. That doesn’t include untapped deep water sources, the continent of Africa, on and on and on. Another reason oil is up is China is buying and storing oil without need (they still have massive reserves), pushing
up world prices.
Peak oil is a red herring at this time. And any article saying we’ve hit peak is just a shill for speculators.

Posted by: jdp | Sep 25 2004 12:46 utc | 25

re war memorials: I recently visited the new WWII Memorial and found it sterile and lacking in inspiration. Not at all a suitable memorial. The Wall always moves me, and I have been to it many times.
What would a suitable memorial to the Iraq war look like? Perhaps something invoking slavery and ignorance, as many of the solidiers there are being forced to stay in the military against their wills, in order to allow the majority here to continue on in its materialistic empty fog.

Posted by: maxcrat | Sep 25 2004 13:19 utc | 26

@jdp – I disagree on your oil arguments
Speculators:
(I am one of them, but on a very, very small scale) can not move markets over days and month against fundamentals. Speculators try to anticipate were markets are going and put bets on their guesses – sometimes it works out, most the times it does not (hedge fonds in 2004 have overall lost). For a speculator a market going down is just as profitable as a market going up – if his guess is right and if he knows his tools.
Medium Term High prices:
The reason prices are high is because supply currently can hardly fulfill demand. Oil demand is not immediate elastic. If prices increase it takes quite a long time before demand goes down (i.e. people shred their SUV and buy a hybrid). It even takes longer before supply goes up, as new field development takes up to ten years. These time lags are working now. Increased demand in China and India was not anticipated by the producers. There was no money invested in new explorations. The consequences will be average oil prices in the $50 region for the next 5 years or so.
Short Term High Prices:
One third of the platforms in the Gulf of Mexico are still offline due to hurricane Ivan, some were destroyed. An important supply source has thereby been reduced and will stay so for some weeks or month.
Another reason for high prices is increased risk through US action in the Middle East (Iran).
One suspected reason is that Saudi Arabia has promised to increase production but has not really done so, either because the have no spare capacity, or because they want a different US president – both plausible – your choice.
Strategic Reserve:
The strategic oil reserve build in China has not even started. China decided to build a strategic reserve only in spring this year. The first depot will be up next year, the other two depots are planed for 2006. On the other side the US is still adding some 110,000 barrels/day to its reserve (without need? because the ME will get pieceful in future years? because Irak will be stable?).
Peak oil:
It is not important if world production peaks now or in five years. It will peak in the this decade. There are more reserves and alternatives but they come at a higher price and thereby with a need for the economy to adopt to higher prices.

Posted by: b | Sep 25 2004 15:08 utc | 27

A FREE book on the positive economics of oil conservation downloadable at Winning the Oil Endgame.

Posted by: b | Sep 25 2004 15:11 utc | 28

I wish the myriad sordid revelations of the Bush family’s historic avarice would mean something. For slightly most americans, everything that condemns Bush is a lie. I’ve spent 8 years studying media and culture, and my own foxnews-watching parents dismiss my claims about Bush/Iraq et al. as my own baseless opinions. For them, like so many americans, the only truth is that which can only be justified by insisting that everything else is a lie.
We live in the most wicked times, and those for whom the ‘truth’ will be an increasing harm, demand more of their own destuction. They deserve it.

Posted by: slothrop | Sep 25 2004 15:52 utc | 29

b,
I must wholely disagree with your premises. My stock broker through Citibank/Solomon-Smithbarney stated to me in no uncertain terms that speculators have added $10-15 per barrel to oil prices. Also, China has started storing oil. You only need to pump the oil back into old wells. This is not rocket science. I worked the oil fields for eight years and I saw storage practises first hand. If China isn’t buying to fill reserves than their buying to save their own reserves. Since oil on the world market is pegged to the US dollar, China is getting a forty percent discount due to currency munipulation. I’d buy other peoples oil at that cut rate myself.
Don’t buy into bullshit bills of goods. We have been hearing the oil endgame for years. While I agree we must concentrate on alternatives to the oil and gas society, the oil endgame is far from over. Further, prices are being munipulated due to several other factors. 1. Just intime inventory 2. Lack of refining capacity 3. Instability as an excuse.
The great majority of US oil comes from a few places. Canada, Mexico, Nigeria and Venuzuela. Alaskan Oil goes to Japan. All but Nigeria have promised stable oil supplies. Nigeria is having some trouble, but it looks like it is under control. Doesn’t it seem odd to you that after the Chavez re-election, oil speculators have moved to other excuses for pumping up oil prices. Even after he promised stable oil flow.
Well, I have someplace to go. Good posting.

Posted by: jdp | Sep 25 2004 16:14 utc | 30

——More Rummy——-
“It’s a tough part of the world,” he said, adding that nowhere — and certainly not major American cities — is entirely peaceful. “We had something like 200 or 300 or 400 people killed in many of the major cities of America last year. . . . What’s the difference? We just didn’t see each homicide in every major city in the United States on television every night.”
———————–
Someone call an exorcist please.
Everytime this guy opens his mouth he spews vomit.
Obviously he is possessed.
Comparing American urban violence to Iraqi cities?
Bless his black heart.

Posted by: koreyel | Sep 25 2004 16:44 utc | 31

By the way…
I did some research on Kolbe after my post up above. I was partly wrong about the openly gay comment.
Funny how the fear of being “routed” changed his voting position too–
————snips—————
Two years later, Rep. Jim Kolbe (R-Ariz.) faced a similar threat when he received word that Advocate magazine was working on a story outing him after he voted in favor of the Defense of Marriage Act, which bans federal recognition of same-sex marriages.
….
“That I am a gay person has never affected the way that I legislate,” Kolbe said at the time. “Even members of Congress should be allowed to have personal lives.”
———–then and now————
Kolbe was outed by journalist Kurt Wolfe after voting for DOMA; he’s since acknowledged that he’s gay, and has defended his pro-DOMA vote, saying, “I also believe that if the citizens of Hawaii believe it to be in their public interest to permit same-sex marriages, they should be permitted to do so. By the same token, other states — as Arizona has done — should be allowed to define marriage differently, and not be required to accept the definition adopted by others.”

Posted by: koreyel | Sep 25 2004 17:01 utc | 32

I’ve mentioned this before, possibly on the old Billmon site, and I hardly ever post over here, because I’m not nearly on the intellectual level of most of the brilliant people who post here on a regular basis. Hats off to all of you. This site is truly a blessing. But I feel that there is an aspect to this argument that is not mentioned enough. Perhaps I am incorrect or off-base, but —–
Regarding the oil crisis in general, have we forgotten how the Bushies and most of those in his administration have made most of their money? Most of them are/were oilmen. I think it’s naive to believe that these guys aren’t manipulating prices and swimming in profits. I understand, of course, that there are some other factors, and they’re all legitimate (instability in Iraq and Middle East in general, supply and demand, peak oil, etc…), but people were fooled into thinking that there was actually an energy crisis in the summer of ’02 (or was it ’03?) with California and Enron. We only recently found out that they were actually manipulating the market and supply to make a shitload of money. I think we are seeing (at least to some extent) a encore performance here. We all know that it’s not below their moral compass to do something like that.
This group of assholes has been trying to establish a foothold in the Middle East for decades (see this article for details on the “thirty year itch.” It’s pretty fascinating. Most of you have probably already read it. Anyhoo —–
Any thoughts?

Posted by: dc | Sep 25 2004 17:19 utc | 33

@jdb
Please ask your stock brocker (I hope for your financial health you are long oil companies and short about everything else) how speculators should be able to add a premium of 45% ($15 on top of 33$/barrel = $48/barrel) on a worldwide transacted commodity. I fail to understand that economic reasoning. Maybe my economy professors didn´t teach it, because they want to cash that money.
China setting up strategic oil reserve (7 Feb, 2004)

In an effort to reverse the growth of its dependence on foreign oil, China – a huge oil producer and once an exporter – is establishing a 70-75-day strategic petroleum reserve in four locations, and the first phase is scheduled to be completed in 2007. By 2020, China is expected to import 60 percent of its oil.
Total price tag: at least US$725 million for the four locations, scheduled to be completed by 2010 – maybe.

China is importing 2.4 million barrels per day this year (the US about 11 mb/d). To have a meaningful reserve of some 60 days imports, like the US has, they would have to store 144 million barrels, quite a few tanker loads. How may old oil wells would you fill with this? One just does not. You either use salt caverns to store reserves, like the US does or you build tanks, as China will.
Manipulation:
– Just in time inventory is not manipulation of “speculators” but an economic decision of the producer who uses this inventory
– Lack of refining capacity is not manipulation of “speculators” but an economic decision of oil companies and investors.
– Instability is not an “excuse” its a fact. Did the risk on oil operation disruption increase the last 2 years or did it fall?
It does not matter if US import countries are stable if there is unstability elsewhere. Nigeria will be happy to sell to Italy if Italy is willing to pay $60/b because of trouble in Lybia and the US only wants to pay $40/b.
Oil is a worldwide market working at economic rules. Now one may like to change that, like the US in Iraq, but that is a different discussion.

Posted by: b | Sep 25 2004 17:45 utc | 34

so sorry when the syphlitic simians speak from the white house. their dementia is deadening. literally & metaphorically.
you tell me, really if there is a qualitative difference between their maladorous ejaculations & those within the elites in the time of nazi germany
in the same way that the dwarf goebbels could cry for total war without ever having to pay the cost (&in his case suicide constituted yet another vanity), in the same way that speer could speak highly of his work in war production hid the reality of slave workers dying in their tens of thousand in the worst way imaginable, in the way that the ‘intellectual’ rosenberg could speak of the ‘east’, the prfessor, the lawyers, the diplomats the doctors within that elite were allowed to articulate their niezschean hatred of the herd
& so too today, the neoconservatives are given free access in their hatred of the people & of the state
& to remind that the opposite exists the judges falcone & borsellino – became the state were the state in absence of the state – & you can read their utterances as a love for the people. a love for the people for which they would die – while the ganster andreotti will die in his bed gloating over his sins
so too bush & co. they gloat. gloat like unimaginable animals that appear in our nightmares. animals that roam through the worst aspects of our character. in this life i think the great majority of us struggle against this venality, this corruption of the soul & because we are not buddha – we do not succeed but these monsters drown in their own corruption
& as each week passes it appears more hallucigenic -these nightmares that these criminals force upon us
at this moment – i apologise – for any incoherence in my posts – but i’m running from one side of the hyperglycemic to the other with increasing does of insulin – it is so early in the treatment that i feel like i have lived physically like a warrior for fifty years & at the moment i feel a little caged – even without the vertiginous side effects i’m feeling for the insulin
but as i sd these criminals seem to embody actuellement the darker feeling i am experiencing
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 25 2004 17:53 utc | 35

oh koreyel
you are so correct
hearts do not come blacker than rumsfield
perhaps only the deranged progeny of jesus christ & j edgar hoover roy cohn & joseph mccarthy – in the form has a blacker heart
& as we all know cheney has no heart at all
& bush a spawn of something or other & possesses no recogniasable human organs
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 25 2004 17:57 utc | 36

Laura Rozen at warandpiece.com offers Richard Beeston’s observations on Iraq (published in The Spectator):
So why is it that the snuff movies, which are being deliberately distributed by the killers, are being snapped up in their thousands on DVDs across Iraq? A year ago Iraqis liked nothing better than buying illicit pornography or video footage of Saddam Hussein’s henchmen torturing and killing their victims. It was assumed that this lurid fascination would wear off now that, after 40 years of state television, Iraqis have access to 24-hour satellite television.
But no, something more disturbing is at work here. In the latest video to hit the streets an Egyptian man, accused of spying for the Americans, is paraded before a camera and has his head severed in a matter of seconds by a powerfully built executioner. Before the murder the video shows footage filmed from the camera of an American warplane that fires a missile into a crowded street; and then pictures of Iraqi civilian victims of the fighting.
The unmistakable message, sent by the fanatical Tawhid wal Jihad (Unity and Holy War) group, is clear. All non-Muslims and even their Muslim collaborators deserve to be executed in the most brutal manner conceivable as punishment for occupying Iraq. A year ago most Iraqis would dismiss these actions as the work of fanatics bent on plunging the country into civil war. After all, the same group is responsible for blowing up the United Nations building a year ago and killing scores of Shia Muslims during their pilgrimage earlier this year in an attempt to spark sectarian strife.
Worryingly the group, led by Abu Musab al-Zarkawi, a Jordanian with links to al-Qa’eda, is no longer a fringe movement but is finding a receptive audience for its message. This month, when heavy fighting erupted on Haifa Street — a main artery through central Baghdad where the old British embassy is located — the group’s distinctive black flag with a yellow circle suddenly sprang up on balconies and lampposts throughout the neighbourhood. Where once the group was accused of being a front for foreign fighters from Syria and Saudi Arabia,
now it is clear that Iraqis too are joining the call, or at least adopting the same tactics.
Beheadings and executions of Nepalese contract workers, Turkish truck drivers, American civilians and ordinary Iraqis accused of collaborating with the Americans are now commonplace. The lucky ones are shot, but many turn up with their severed heads bound to their bodies.
The brutality of this struggle, which seems likely to intensify as the date approaches for the first elections in January, completely dominates working life. Correspondents no longer bother writing about the failure of reconstruction, electricity cuts or even attacks on American troops. There is no reconstruction to speak of and the chronic crime, grinding traffic and other grim aspects of life go largely unnoticed. A colleague came within a second of being blown to pieces by a roadside bomb detonated in front of his car on a major motorway in the city earlier this week.
The incident was simply another delay to his journey and he did not even bother writing about it. Although several Americans and Iraqis were injured in the blast, it no longer makes news. The car bombs, which explode almost daily and have killed more than 100 Iraqis in the past week, are barely worth a mention unless the death toll climbs into double figures.
Today, living in Baghdad is a simple fight for survival, particularly for the small band of Westerners who still inhabit the city alongside the Iraqi residents. In a year the response to a foreign face in Baghdad has evolved from a smiling “hello, Mister”, to a sulky stare and the odd obscene gesture, to today’s look of disbelief or even open hostility.
A Westerner walking the street in Baghdad today is a conversation-stopper…

Posted by: Pat | Sep 25 2004 18:06 utc | 37

@dc
Of course oil companies do use the surge in crude prices to increase their profits. The quarterly profit announcements of oil companies in the next three weeks will be gigantic. But to be able to manipulate the crude oil market into much higher prices one would need a monopoly or cartel (Enron in California) on a world wide basis. I doubt there is one on the oil world market except OPEC which is believed to be at maximum capacity right now.
The US gas, heating oil and natural gas markets can be sometimes manipulated into higher prices with the excuse of higher crude prices. But at some price point “arbitrage” sets in and some entrepreneur will import gas from Europe or elsewhere and sell it for a cent less breaking thereby the cartel.
California is a problem in itself. They set gas standards that requires gas only two or three refineries are able to produce, giving themself into the hand of cartels and manipulation.

Posted by: b | Sep 25 2004 18:06 utc | 38

@Pat
If Beestons is right, I don´t doubt him, as a side effect we will soon have no reliable reporting from Iraq anymore. Qui bono?
I am afraid these snuff movies of beheadings will create a wave of follow ups in the western world in future years. They are distributed now on ogrish.com with huge download numbers and no, you don´t really want to watch them.
It´s all getting worse and will get much more worse than we think today.
The US did dig itself into a hole in Iraq and now it starts digging faster to come out.
The third round of US occupation troops, OIF-3, will go into Iraq “heavy” in the next two month or so. “Heavy” means with their battle tanks and artillery which were mostly left at home by OIF-2. This will increase civil casualties and other costs by a magnitude.
This winter Iraq will see rationated heating kerosine, lack of food with probable famines in some places and serious desease waves with some thousands children dying. All will be underreported because nobody will dare to use a camera anymore.

Posted by: b | Sep 25 2004 18:34 utc | 39

b,
Come’on, you have much more faith in the so called free market than I do. And yes, storage does take place in salt mines such as the natural gas in Michigan mines where I live.
You really need to throw your college professors bullshit out the window. It’s business and politics. Economics has nothing to do with the current market munipulation. The oil companies are pure monopolies and thats a fact. During the eighties and nineties only the big boys survived.
Just in time inventory is munipulation because it’s easy to create false supply disruptions. Thus allowing speculators to bid up the commodities market. Thus creating windfall profits.
Lack of refinery capacity does the same as above.
Instabilty is another fallacy in that Iraq’s oil has been replaced on the world market by other sources for years. Contracts are paid for oil and natural gas sometimes years in advance. Commodities traders merely bet what it will sell for 3-6 months from now. A natural gas supplier may have bought gas for 30 cents per CCF a year ago. But if a public service commission lets the company, they could sell it for 90 cents.
There have been concious business decisions to munipulate gas and oil prices, and politics has let it happen. It is nothing to do with the free market. We are back to a Standard Oil world. Praise the new Guilded Age. We are in a political economy, not a market economy.

Posted by: jdp | Sep 25 2004 18:36 utc | 40

Zarqawi’s Palestinian No. 2 Dies in US Targeted Assassination
DEBKAfile Exclusive Report
September 25, 2004, 6:54 PM (GMT+02:00)
US eliminates high value Zarqawi operative, Palestinian Omar Yusef Juma`a aka Abu Anas, in Baghdad
On Thursday, September 23, US forces resorted to targeted assassination to dispose of Abu Anas al-Shami, a senior aide of the Jordanian al Qaeda mastermind, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, in Baghdad.
His real identity, we reveal here, was Omar Yusef Juma’a, a Palestinian terrorist operations expert from the West Bank town of Tulkarm. DEBKAfile’s counter-terror sources report that al-Shami was killed by an American missile in Baghdad’s Shiite slum district, Sadr City. However, the American military in Iraq is more sparing than Israeli forces with the specifics of a targeted assassination, and it is not clear if the missile was fired from a helicopter, a drone or one of the US special force units which patrol and mount ambushes in Baghdad, Fallujah and other insurgent hotbed towns.
No one knows exactly how many lieutenants Zarqawi has, probably 4 or five. But locating and killing a high-profile member of Zarqawi’s organization a few days after the capture of another top Zarqawi aide, known as Omar Baziyani (an alias), is a considerable American feat in its relentless offensive against the group behind the deadly suicide bombings and hostage-taking atrocities afflicting Iraq.
[A considerable feat. A relentless offensive. U-huh, you bet. Who demanded the op AFTER two American beheadings made their way onto the front page? Gee, could it be that worthless SOB Rumsfeld? Or was it Bush himself this time? Whichever. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: This administration, with its comical-tragic likeness to the al Sauds, will respond to headlines and little else. Responding to headlines means you’re a day late getting off your ass, but what do Bush and Rumsfeld care? It’s not their heads coming off, after all.]

Posted by: Pat | Sep 25 2004 18:59 utc | 41

@jdp – thanks for discussion!
On oil price I would like to give the mic to our inhouse expert Jérôme

Oil is quite unusual in that it is a vital commodity for everybody (economies would grind to a halt without it), with limited demand elasticity (i.e. demand will not vary much with price) and a very efficient worldwide market. There is a single worldwide price (or at least equivalent netbacks taking into account transportation costs) and a fully liquid and solvent market which ensures that if you have oil, you will find a buyer – with the money to pay for it. This means that no one (except for very specific cases, for instance a pipeline leading to a single refinery, which will have some buying power) can set its conditions on the buying side.

Instabilty is another fallacy in that Iraq’s oil has been replaced on the world market by other sources for years.
In its majority it didn´t need to be replaced. The Council of Foreign Relations says

Where did Iraq sell its oil before the 2003 war?
Domestic consumption amounted to about 300,000 barrels per day. About 1.1 million barrels per day were sold through the oil-for-food program. The rest—about 400,000 barrels, according to industry estimates—was smuggled out through Jordan, Syria, Iran, and Turkey in violation of U.N. sanctions.

We are in a political economy, not a market economy.
That hasn´t changed for some thousand years :-).

Posted by: b | Sep 25 2004 19:06 utc | 42

perhaps only the deranged progeny of jesus christ & j edgar hoover roy cohn & joseph mccarthy – in the form has a blacker heart – john ascroft

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 25 2004 19:15 utc | 43

7 Iraqi Guard Applicants, 4 U.S. Marines and a Soldier Are Killed
The 9 killed and 16 wounded civilians bombed by the US in Fallujah didn´t make the headline but the third paragraph has them.

Posted by: b | Sep 25 2004 19:16 utc | 44

& the criminal conspiacy continues
the body count will mount infinitely
& the criminals will dine out in washington with their clients footting the bill & they will laugh amongst themselves how they have swallowed the people whole
& as in the fifties all they have to do is offer them forms of information & entertainement that empty the human soul
& rupert will be there laughing at them undertstanding that human affairs are not shakespearean & so he wasted all that time at oxford – he understands in his dotage that political leaders are created of cruder stuff & that it is within his power to make it cruder & he will
`
& they wander in & out of discussions that are not worth having while the people bleed in iraq, while the people bleed as the prick rrumsfield so rightly points out on the streets of america & so he will give his pals in the n r a the right to semiautomatic weapons so they that they can fill the streets with them
as in their genocide of african americans – wiping out future leaders from that community & they will dream of their consulting jobs at the end & their invitations to cnn to speak pompously of those that bleed
oh fuck them
fuck them all
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 25 2004 19:38 utc | 45

@b
So OIF3’s going heavy and six months early. Someone’s not reading their rosy RNC talking points. Armor and arty is good for one thing only in situations like this: maintaining your perimeter.
Coverage of news in Iraq has been thin for quite some time now. The way it was working until April or so: Newsroom editors back in the States fashion a headline and fly a reporter out for 72 hours or a week to some secure area to put together a story to back the headline. Whatever doesn’t back the headline doesn’t make the story. But thin reporting has grown appreciably thinner due to ever-shrinking secure zones and this can have the ironic effect of misleading the public into thinking that Iraq is something other than a place going to hell in a hurry.

Posted by: Pat | Sep 25 2004 19:43 utc | 46

@Pat – not really 6 month early – some parts of OIF-3 are already in Iraq. Expect some troops going in earlier than planed for the announced November attacks on Fallujah, Ramadi etc. and the “elections” in January. Some on tour now, especially the Marines, will have it prolonged. That will create an overlap of coming and going troops that puts maybe 200.000 pair of boots on the ground to stomp around. Not enough – when Shinkesi talked of “several 100,000” needed he didn´t mean 200,000. With the infested guerilla 500,000 could probably get an upperhand.
GlobalSecurity

As part of the rotation, OIF units will be deploying ‘heavy’.

An article in the Wall Street Journal published on Sept. 24, reported that the Pentagon was planning on a temporary increase in the number of US troops in Iraq ..

Gen. John P. Abizaid, CENTCOM, was quoted as telling reporters on Sept. 24, 2004, that more forces were expected to be needed for Iraq , in anticipation of coming elections there,…Such [contingency] planning would be partly contingent on the strategy to be adopted in offensive operations to be conducted in the Sunni Triangle, and would likely rely on extending the tours of unit already deployed in country.

On Sept 23, 2004, DoD announced the death of a soldier from the 2nd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment in Iraq. The deployment of that unit had not been previously noted.

There are already more troops in Iraq than the 140,000 that are officially mentioned. Also you do have to count the 30,000 GIs in Kuweit who are essentially the supply chain for OIF as is the air force in Incirlik and the Navy in the Gulf. The generals know that this is insufficient as well as unsustainable.

Posted by: b | Sep 25 2004 20:36 utc | 47

From tomorrows WaPo: Poverty Up as Welfare Enrollment Declines

Though the number of welfare recipients continues to decline, poverty rates — particularly for single mothers and children — have surged in recent years. Just last month, the government reported that the number of people on welfare had declined by 149,000 at the end of 2003 compared with 2002, while the number in poverty rose by 1.3 million.

In Taylor’s case, she was getting by on about $217 a month in child support and $274 in food stamps.

Posted by: b | Sep 25 2004 20:51 utc | 48

Bernhard, I want you and jdp to be nice to each other now. You are both right IMO, at least on some points. I don’t claim to know the ins and outs of market and political economies but we have to admit that we have a weird mixture of both here.
The Fat Boys are manipulators, and whenever and however they can, they will manipulate. It has become easier to do this lately with the ballooning Orwellian public stance (war is peace, lies are the truth) and it looks to me like we have to face the fact that things are not necessarily as you were taught in school.
Secret agreements are made among those who should be seen as competitors, in trade, govt, war, etc. These deals are not intended to be seen or understood by observers.

Posted by: rapt | Sep 25 2004 20:52 utc | 49

@Pat…Thanks for pointing out that armor and arty are being brought in to secure the perimeter. WTF endgame do these assholes have in mind I wonder.

Posted by: rapt | Sep 25 2004 20:55 utc | 50

A strange melancholy pervades me to which I hesitate to give the grave and beautiful name of sorrow. The idea of sorrow has always appealed to me, but now I am almost ashamed of its complete egoism. I have known boredom, regret, and occasionally remorse, but never sorrow. Today it envelops me like a silken web, enervating and soft, and sets me apart from everybody else.

Bonjour Tristesse
French literary icon Sagan dies

Posted by: b | Sep 25 2004 21:07 utc | 51

Today the captain is sober

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 25 2004 22:20 utc | 52

thx uncle – a realy good one.

Posted by: b | Sep 25 2004 22:55 utc | 53

@ Clueless Joe
” The logic would say that these people are ripe for the communist party….”
Robert Franks “What’s the Matter with Kansas”, would put this interesting twist to you’re statement;
In some ways, the backlash (the new fundamentalist right) vision of the world is nothing more than an old fasioned leftist vision of the world with the economics drained out. Where the muckrakers of old faulted capitalism for botching this institution and that, the backlash thinkers simply change the script to blame liberalism……….
Even the rhetoric of the backlash, with all its regular- guy florishes, sometimes appears to have been lifted whole cloth from the prolatarian thirties. The idea that average people are helpless pawns caught in a machine run by the elite comes straight from the vulgar-Marxist copybook, which taught generations of party members that they inhabited a deterministic world where agency was reserved for capitalists — or, more precisely, for capital itself. Or consider the set of accusations against the liberal elite having to do with their unmanliness, their effeteness, their love of all things French — all of which we heard so much about during the run up to the recent war with Iraq. The old – left lineage of this particular backlash stereotype is undeniable. Here Mike Gould, the two fisted literary critic for the Daily Worker, waging cultural war on the religious pretenses of the novelist Thorton Wilder:
It is that newly fashonable literary religion that centers around Jesus Christ, the first British Gentelman. It is a pastel, pastiche, dilettante religion, without the true neurotic blood and fire, a daydream of homosexual figures in graceful gowns moving archaically among the lilies. It is Anglo – Catholicism, that last refuge of the American literary snob.
Toss in references to the novelist’s “devitalized air”, his “rootless cosmpolitanism”, his familiarity with a discreet “French Drawingroom”, and presto: you,ve got the latte liberal. The Bobos. The establishment. The blue – state elite. The difference, of course is that Gold attributed these characteristics to the lazy, denatured rich. Aldrich, Brooks, Coulter, Limbaugh,and the rest simply turn the stereotype on liberals.

Posted by: anna missed | Sep 26 2004 0:00 utc | 54

@Uncle$
have been following your tracks, just have’nt caught up enough to comment — keep a goin’

Posted by: anna missed | Sep 26 2004 0:05 utc | 55

Well, I’ve been corrected. I was looking at OIF as a Marine/Infantry operation, which it had indeed become and in which armor and arty do primarily secure your perimeter. But that isn’t the idea here. The idea is to use armor as spearheads within cities, where air can’t reach and where boots on the ground are extremely vulnerable. They discovered in Najaf that an Abrams is the best weapon/vehicle for the job. Come to think of it, the IDF came to rely on armor for the same purpose in similar circumstances, though their main battle tank also serves as an infantry transport. And remember Les Aspin turning down, much to his later shame, the request for tanks in Mogadishu? The Black Hawks and Bradleys weren’t cutting it, and too many guys were exposed to fire. It’s really a revalidation of tanks (and a discount of air primacy) in operations recently thought unsuitable for them. Gotta make the tankers happy, that. And sure as hell beats being dismounted or sitting in a Humvee or stuck in a Bradley disabled by an RPG.
So I guess we’re looking at a November/December offensive.

Posted by: Pat | Sep 26 2004 0:19 utc | 56

From IntelDump:
Saturday, September 25, 2004
Al Qaeda 4.0?
Sunday’s Los Angeles Times has an outstanding article on the evolution of Al Qaeda since Sept. 11 — to borrow Peter Bergen’s typology, its upgrade from the organization that hit us to Al Qaeda 4.0. By and large, the terror organization has evolved in response to U.S. actions out of a desire to survive and perpetuate its ideology and mission. The result is a network which is far more dispersed, loosely connected, and survivable than the one in Sept. 2001 — and one which will probably be harder for us to dismantle.
“Even before the Sept. 11 attacks, Al Qaeda was a loosely organized network, but core leaders exercised considerable control over its operations. Since the loss of its base in Afghanistan and many of those leaders, the organization has dispersed its operatives and reemerged as a lethal ideological movement.
“Osama bin Laden might now serve more as an inspirational figure than a CEO, and the war in Iraq is helping focus militants’ anger, according to dozens of interviews in recent weeks on several continents. European and moderate Islamic countries have become targets. And instead of undergoing lengthy training at camps in Afghanistan, recruits have been quickly indoctrinated at home and deployed on attacks.
“The United States remains a target, but counter-terrorism officials and experts are alarmed by Al Qaeda’s switch from spectacular attacks that require years of planning to smaller, more numerous strikes on softer targets that can be carried out swiftly with little money or outside help.
“The impact of these smaller attacks can be enormous. Bombings in Casablanca in May 2003 shook Morocco’s budding democracy, leading to mass arrests and claims of abuse. The bombing of four commuter trains in Madrid in March contributed to the ouster of Spain’s government and the withdrawal of its troops from Iraq.
“Officials say the terrorist movement has benefited from the rapid spread of radical Islam’s message among potential recruits worldwide who are motivated by Al Qaeda’s anti-Western doctrine, the continuing Palestinian-Israeli conflict and the insurgency in Iraq.
“The Iraq war, which President Bush says is necessary to build a safer world, has emerged as a new front in the battle against terrorism and a rallying point for a seemingly endless supply of young extremists willing to die wherever they wage jihad, or holy war.
“Intelligence and counter-terrorism officials said Iraq also was replacing Afghanistan and the Russian republic of Chechnya as the premier location for on-the-job training for the next phase of violence against the West and Arab regimes.
“‘In Iraq, a problem has been created that didn’t exist there before,’ said Judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere of France, dean of Europe’s anti-terrorism investigators. ‘The events in Iraq have had a profound impact on the entirety of the jihad movement.'”
Political Analysis: If the Democrats could exploit this, it could have profound implications for the 2004 election. The most fundamental question is this: Has the Bush administration made us more or less secure since Sept 11? A subsidiary question is: Has the war in Iraq made us more likely, as likely, or less likely to be attacked by terrorists? To win in November, the Democrats must turn this election into a referendum on the Bush White House’s national security policies — on everything from the war against Al Qaeda to the war in Iraq and the bumbling efforts of the Department of Homeland Security. It must do so with simple messages like this — the rhetorical equivalent of the old refrain about whether you’re better off today than you are four year ago. And the Democrats must find a way to communicate points made in articles like this — that in fact, America may be less secure today because of its missteps in the war on terrorism. And when you screw up as badly as this administration has screwed up on so many fronts, you simply don’t get to keep your job. That’s something that the average American can wrap his or her head around, and I think it’s the way the Dems need to package their pitch to win in November.
Why isn’t the Kerry team doing this? Who knows. Perhaps it’s his penchant for nuance, honed during years of elite schooling and years in the Senate. Perhaps it’s the desire to leave wiggle room for policies after the election, should he be elected. Perhaps it’s that these issues really are complicated, and it’s hard to simplify them into terms that are black and white. Nonetheless, the Kerry team must realize two things. (1) Politics is the art of the possible — if you don’t win the election, nothing is possible. (2) The Bush White House is extremely good at simplifying (perhaps oversimplifying) these things for the public into matters of right/wrong and good/evil. Nuance simply won’t cut it in response to these positions.

Posted by: Pat | Sep 26 2004 2:05 utc | 57

Technology Transfers:
It seems that the US has acquired one of Israel’s most effective weapons- Magic ordnance that instantly turns anyone killed by it into terrorists. Other countries are desperate to develop similar devices. Putin’s Russia appears closest.
My suspicion is that it is a binary weapon consisting of high explosives and inert half containing facile press and docile public.

Posted by: biklett | Sep 26 2004 2:28 utc | 58

@B:
Bonjour Tristesse:
Always suspected you were a lacrymose closet Frog.
@Rapt:
Thanks for pointing out that armor and arty are being brought in to secure the perimeter. WTF endgame do these assholes have in mind I wonder.
Must be “the New,New Thing” that Rummy and Wolfie just dreamed up on the spur of the moment.
These guys are true genuises, I have no doubt.
@Pat:
Whole “corrected” post above. Seems like it’s
12 months too late. But the approach is Army doctrine, and we haven’t seen too much of that in evidence in the last three years, have we, eh? From Tora Bora on forward.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Sep 26 2004 2:30 utc | 59

rapt@4:52pm
Nice post.
Succinct and on point re: the FatBoys machinations.

Posted by: RossK | Sep 26 2004 2:57 utc | 60

@FlashHarry
My husband’s biggest constant beef with the DoD leadership is the practice of eschewing doctrine. We have it for a reason, he says in exasperation. Try it out sometime.
“From Tora Bora forward.” Indeed.

Posted by: Pat | Sep 26 2004 3:06 utc | 61

When a strongman waivers
“Musharraf was less enthusiastic in his support for the U.S. war in Iraq, saying the world is less safe in the wake of the invasion……
…..Musharraf also said that because of the situation in Iraq, he does not foresee Pakistan sending troops to help with the effort.”
– Does he lose his favors?

Posted by: RossK | Sep 26 2004 3:22 utc | 62

At the UN President (Dictator General) Musharraf of Pakistan sounds a general alarm and pledges for new priorities:

Too many fronts have been opened, too many battle lines drawn.

Justice must be offered to Islamic peoples in the form of resolution of all outstanding international disputes which affect Muslims. There is no time to lose. Action has to be taken before an iron curtain finally descends between the West and the Islamic World.

The tragedy of Palestine is an open wound inflicted on the psyche of every Muslim. It generates anger and resentment across the Islamic World.

The US can and must play the role of a just broker of peace. Peace must succeed in the Middle East; failure … is no more an option.

Frightening

Posted by: b | Sep 26 2004 10:00 utc | 63

Uncle $cam wrote:
Despite the signs all around of us of increasing repression, surveillance and control, there is no way the system can sustain itself much longer.
Thanks for that, mon. Here’s hoping you are correct.
I worry, however, that even without hi-tech surveillance we will still descend into fascism the old-fashioned way, as people’s fear ratchets ever upward in response to the massive changes peak oil is wreaking even now–

Posted by: thepuffin | Sep 26 2004 14:58 utc | 64

LA Times America the Conservative – Europe is in the 21st century, but we remain locked in the 18th

Whether President Bush is reelected or Sen. John F. Kerry prevails, the United States will be the most conservative developed nation in the world. Its economy will remain the least regulated, its welfare state the smallest, its military the strongest and its citizens the most religious.

It wasn’t always so. At the start of the 20th century, the U.S. looked progressive compared with Europe’s empires. The big difference between the U.S. and Europe is that the U.S. kept its 18th century Constitution, while most European countries discarded theirs. In a wave of revolutions and quasi-revolutionary general strikes, European countries, one by one, replaced their older conservative constitutions with ones often designed by socialist or labor leaders.

The sharp racial division that runs through American society makes it possible to castigate poor people in a way that would be impossible in a homogeneous nation like Sweden, where the poor look the same as everyone else.

Increased immigration to Europe is making those societies more heterogeneous, and we have already seen opponents of social welfare, such as Jean-Marie Le Pen in France, Joerg Haider in Austria and Pim Fortuyn in the Netherlands, use inflammatory anti-immigrant rhetoric to discredit generous welfare payments. We may like to believe that human beings are colorblind, but the reality is that American diversity has always made redistribution less popular here than in more ethnically and racially homogeneous places.

Posted by: b | Sep 26 2004 15:54 utc | 65

Re: What would a suitable memorial to the Iraq war look like?

I came across this Online Memorial. Not knowing what it was for, I googled a few names. These are 9-11 victims.

Perchance–has this been done for the Iraq War dead?

Yes, but in a tacky way:
1,000 men and women
Obviously, the first site is bare bones honest, but lacks the links of the second.
The good idea: marry the best of both sites.

Posted by: koreyel | Sep 26 2004 17:15 utc | 66

Sorry…tried to shortcut those links.

First one: Online 9/11 memorial

Second one: 1000 men and woman.

You will eventually want to mute your puter at the second site.

Posted by: koreyel | Sep 26 2004 17:20 utc | 67

@ b
re: Musharraf…
Agreed, really frightening.
Also, have to wonder….if the Cabal survives (or is resurrected by the JebCycle)…will the Musher be the next villain?

Posted by: RossK | Sep 26 2004 18:23 utc | 68

The Long Hunt for Osama – Peter Bergen – October issue – The Atlantic via The Agonist
Where has he been? How did we ever let him get away? Our correspondent–one of the few Western journalists ever to have met Osama bin Laden–traces the al-Qaeda leader’s footsteps in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and describes the sometimes hapless American pursuit.
Take some time and read this article. This is an important article if you want to stay informed, and Bergen is one of the most legit terrorism experts out there. jnh.
Very, very interesting article.

Posted by: b | Sep 26 2004 19:36 utc | 69

From Bergen’s Atlantic Monthly article:
“The capture of Khalid Sheikh Muhammad, in March of 2003, was the most important al-Qaeda arrest since 9/11. However, according to Syed Mohsin Naqvi, a Pakistani journalist who interviewed Muhammad while he was on the run in August of 2002, Muhammad claimed that others were ready to replace him in the event he was arrested. ‘We already have so many backups,’ he said, ‘that the Americans can’t imagine.’
“Muhammad’s arrest may have brought investigators tantalizingly close to bin Laden himself. According to American sources, when Muhammad was arrested he may have been tortured, a not uncommon technique of Pakistani law enforcement. That may explain why he quickly volunteered that he had met with bin Laden in December of 2002. Although Muhammad would not reveal where the meeting took place, it was probably in Pakistan.”
If torture could make Muhammad volunteer that he had met with bin Laden in December of 2002, it would also make him volunteer where the meeting took place, who else was there, etc.
What more likely happened is this: Muhammad was taken into Pak custody upon arrest. He would have already known, and the Pakistanis would have taken the opportunity to vividly emphasize, that brutality is a commonplace and torture is a convention to his Pak custodians. The maximum amount of fear, stress, and anxiety would have, without torture, been induced in a short period of time. When Muhammad showed sufficient sign of distress, he would have been handed over to Americans, whom he would already know do not operate according to the same rules as their Pakistani counterparts. Then he would have faced a choice: Cooperate and stay in US custody, or decline to cooperate and return to the custody of the Pakistanis. Disinformation and intermediate resistence would be discouraged, in part, by pointing out that a fellow in his position could be tried and executed as a war criminal by the US, or granted some leniency in the event that he proved useful. These wouldn’t be the only approaches, but they’d be part of the package. (That he gave up any pertinent information at all shows that he hadn’t adopted a fatalistic mindset upon apprehension and in his early detention, a mindset for which their is no reversal. That I find interesting.)
Bergen writes a good article, but it’s dismaying to see, yet again, the fallacy of “productive” torture crop up.

Posted by: Pat | Sep 26 2004 22:36 utc | 70

I just found this site and cannot believe that the “Whiskey Bar” commmunity still lives. I was an avid reader back in the spring, until the comments section was shut down, and there’s nothing else like it out there. And… here you are!
So I have a piece to contribute to this thread. It’s one I just discovered today, and I think it’s one of the most important things I’ve read about the Iraq war so far. It’s from this month’s (Sept) Harper’s Magazine Baghdad Year Zero, by Naomi Klein. It’s about the economic motivations for the war and the various measures taken by the administration, Bremer, and the neocons to try and force shotgun privatization through in the aftermath of the war. Full of all kinds of first-hand details that are so rare from Iraq. And it sheds a LOT of light on why certain decisions evolved as they did.
I’d love to see a discussion on this article here.

Posted by: Bea | Sep 26 2004 23:39 utc | 71

Disinformation and intermediate resistence would be discouraged, in part, by pointing out that a fellow in his position could be tried and executed as a war criminal by the US, or granted some leniency in the event that he proved useful.
…And any dilly-dallying by KSM could be also be dissauded by the Rumsfeld- approved regimen of mild torture and sexual humiliation of Qaeda suspects (even though Muhammad is in some anonymous CIA prison). But you’re right, the threat of torture-by-proxy from Pakistan would be pretty scary for even the most zealous terrorist. KSM’s information was useful, but I don’t think there were any immediate plots foiled. So the torture or threat of torture was not only unlawful (and immoral), it was irrelevant. Unproductive indeed.
Bea:
I’m skeptical of Klein’s thesis.

The fact that the boom never came and Iraq continues to tremble under explosions of a very different sort should never be blamed on the absence of a plan. Rather, the blame rests with the plan itself, and the extraordinarily violent ideology upon which it is based.

But the reason for sacking the entire military was to facilitate de- Baathification, not to deliver some shock therapy to the economy. Most of the economic changes he attempted were rescinded before they could have the kind of shock effects on society that they had on Russia. Bushco was both unable and unwilling to institute law and order in the country – the absence of a plan – and the security situation got so bad that economic growth became impossible. The story of the soap factory seems to support this; it suffered from American neglect, despite imperial proclamations to privatize it.
But this part made me laugh out loud:

Getting nowhere, the workers offered the ministry a simple choice: increase their paltry salaries or they would all join the armed resistance. They received a substantial raise.

Iraq must be one of the few countries in the world were workers could make a threat like this and not be jailed or massacred by death squads!

Posted by: Harrow | Sep 27 2004 2:20 utc | 72

Hi flies.
Just popped by the old same place.
New sign up.
I’m guessing he was waylaid by pirates.
Still,
A positive sign,
If a little grim.

Posted by: sasando | Sep 27 2004 2:47 utc | 73

@Harrow
While I’m not sure I’d go along Naomi Kleins notion of how the Year Zero group gained preference over the Allawi “pragmatists” — that the Chalabi group was drivin by some revenge, on his part, for his familys loss of assets back in the 58 revolution — I found Kleins general overview pretty compelling. It would also account (in my mind) for the black hole mystery of why so little of the 18 billion reconstruction money was ever spent. They really thought it (creating a free market utopia) would fix everything on it’s own accord???
One would think, if givin only a passing glance, that it would be self evident, givin the history and the culture of Iraq that this Year Zero plan could not stand a chance in hell of succeeding. I don’t mean to digress but, Iraq was a socialist country whose population was (is) tribal/clan by nature, a country where some 50% of marriages are between first cousins, where kin-folk are’nt in the habit of moving away and out of touch, they stay put and stay close to the clan as for protection, for commerce, not to mention that their collective religion bounds them in that connection and compells them to protect and seek revenge for any violation to that connection — to think that these people, on release from their dictator, would simply throw all that history and culture to the wind for some great unknown, untried, and unfamiliar political/economic system is truely breathtaking in its ignorance.

Posted by: anna missed | Sep 27 2004 4:11 utc | 74

Shutting Up Sibel Edmonds, Again
Andrew Buncombe has an update on the Sibel Edmonds story in today’s Independent. A group of family members of victims of 9/11 are taking legal action against banks and two powerful Saudis that allegedly aided al-Qaeda. The family members’ representation, the law firm Motley-Rice, subpoenaed Edmonds but the Bush administration is attempting to use the “state secrets privilege” to keep her from testifying.
It’s my understanding that Ashcroft has already successfully used the state secrets privilege to foil Edmonds attempt to acquire, via the Freedom of Information Act, the controversial documents that she claims to have seen as an FBI translator. So the Justice Department’s action this time around will likely succeed.
It’s interesting that two of the defendants in this case are members of the Saudi Royal family. In Amy Goodman’s interview with Edmonds, Edmonds made the following statement regarding the Justice Departments’ previous invocation of the state secrets privilege:
[The Justice Department says] this privilege is very rare and is asserted to prevent certain information from becoming public or hurting diplomatic relations and I would underline this phrase ‘diplomatic relations’ several times.
Couldn’t “hurting diplomatic relations” mean embarrassing two members of the Saudi Royal family?

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 27 2004 5:25 utc | 75

@Harrow
“KSM’s information was useful, but I don’t think there were any immediate plots foiled. So the torture or threat of torture was not only unlawful (and immoral), it was irrelevant.”
Harrow, neither you nor I know the extent or ultimate value of the information provided by KSM. That aside, do you honestly believe that an interrogation, or any method of gaining cooperation therein, that does not lead directly to foiling a plot is irrelevant?
It is neither unlawful nor immoral to suggest to a prisoner that he may be remanded to the custody of an authority that has a legitimate claim to him, or to bring to his attention other likely or potential consequences of his pre-capture and post-capture actions. It is neither unlawful nor immoral to suggest to a prisoner that he may avoid remandment and/or other possible consequences if certain conditions are met. In neither case is he directly threatened with death or torture, which would indeed, by our standards, be unlawful and immoral.

Posted by: Pat | Sep 27 2004 5:52 utc | 76

Hey Uncle!
You’ve been on top of this SEdmonds thing from the beginning.
How about contacting Bernhard and writing us a top to bottom post so that we can have everything in one place to refer to?

Posted by: RossK | Sep 27 2004 6:29 utc | 77

@ Harrow
Not sure I agree with your major point for dismissing Klein’s thesis.
Specifically, if de-Baathification as a means to an ends itself was so important why did re-Baathification occur with such gusto a scant few months later when required.
(thanks for posting Klein’s piece Bea, we’d bashed it about a little a while back before it came on line – John MacArthur’s tight fisted that way with his stuff…and great to read you again).

Posted by: RossK | Sep 27 2004 6:38 utc | 78

In the WaPo Jackson Diehl asks, “Will it be the West Bank or Lebanon?”
From Jenin To Fallujah?
Monday, September 27, 2004; Page A19
Two and a half years ago this week, the Israeli army launched an offensive against the Palestinian towns of Jenin, Nablus, Ramallah and Bethlehem — which, it said, had become havens for extremist groups and suicide bombers who made daily life in Israel unbearable. Images of flattened houses and civilian casualties soon filled the world’s television screens: Palestinian spokesmen claimed, falsely, that thousands were being massacred. U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan declared himself “appalled.” President Bush publicly called on Israel to withdraw “without delay.” Some editorial writers — such as this one — argued that the offensive would do more harm than good.
As Americans and Iraqis now debate what to do about insurgent-held Iraqi towns, it’s worth revisiting that Israeli campaign — because what followed offers a counter to some of the conventional wisdom. Yes, there are innumerable differences between the West Bank and Iraq. And yet the salient point is that through the robust use of military force, Israel has succeeded in reducing the level of violence it faces by more than 70 percent.[…]

Posted by: Pat | Sep 27 2004 7:09 utc | 79

At lewrockwell.com, Karen Kwiatowski informs us that the courageous Al Lorenz, a Civil Affairs NCO in Iraq who recently wrote a column explaining why we cannot win there, may be charged with an Article 134 violation.
Roadmap for the Prosecution
by Karen Kwiatkowski
Al Lorentz is a reserve Non-Commissioned Officer currently serving in Iraq. His blazingly clear, succinct article on Iraq has raged over the wires since it was published on LewRockwell.com.
Al, in his civilian life, was an active member of the Constitution Party in the great state of Texas. He worked on a ranch, served in the reserves, and when activated, deployed to Iraq.
He has something in common with our own President George W. Bush, who was also active in a political party in Texas, worked on a ranch, and did some time in the National Guard. Of course, President Bush hasn’t served in Iraq.
Al and George might have a lot to talk about.
Al penned a factual personal assessment of what is happening in Iraq. He revealed no classified information. Far more detail on Iraq challenges has long been provided by respected retired military officers like Marine General Tony Zinni and former Director of the National Security Agency William Odom. Al wrote nothing more damning than what has already been published and released in part by the Central Intelligence Agency regarding conditions and future possibilities in Iraq.
So what is the problem?
The problem is that Al Lorentz, “Big Al” to his friends, has something that the Bush administration needs badly.[…]

Posted by: Pat | Sep 27 2004 7:57 utc | 80

The Guardian A European superstate is inevitable

The world’s largest economy with a stable common currency and a successful single market is … bound to pursue policies that conflict with the interests of the US.
That makes the two “superpowers” competitors but not enemies. It also means that “core Europe” – the Franco-German alliance which Britain should join and make into a troika – is certain to lead the way towards distinctive defence and foreign policies. Only people who share the Bush belief that America has a divine right to global supremacy can complain about that.

Posted by: b | Sep 27 2004 8:36 utc | 81

From TNR:
General John Abizaid, the regional commander of U.S. forces in the Middle East and South Asia, [appeared yesterday] on “Meet The Press.” Abizaid cleared his throat by admitting, “it is hard,” before proceeding to belittle the intelligence of the American people:
“So the constant drumbeat in Washington of a war that is being lost, that can’t be won, of a resistance that is out of control, simply do not square with the facts on the ground. …
[R]emember that the enemy wants to break our will. They are experts at manipulating the media. They have yet to win a single military engagement in that country. They have yet to win a single military engagement against the forces of the new Iraqi armed forces that are standing up.”
Where to begin? Abizaid, who graduated from West Point during the last year of American troop commitments in Vietnam, knows full well that an insurgency doesn’t need to win direct military engagements to win a war. It needs to win the sympathies and self-preservation instincts of beleaguered populations, and that’s exactly what it is doing in Anbar province, Sadr City and numerous other regions of the country outside of government control. Furthermore, to say that the insurgents didn’t win military engagements against Iraqi security forces is to ignore the desertions and defections of April, as well as the anecdotal reports of desertions in Najaf in August, which are buttressed in credibility by Iyad Allawi’s refusal to release the figures on how many police, soldiers and national guardsmen are actually fighting for the interim government.
Finally, Abizaid is coming very close to saying that independent journalism depicting the chaos of Iraq is serving the purposes of the insurgents, who are “experts at manipulating the media.” Echoing a constant stump-speech refrain of the president’s (“They’re trying to break our will”), Abizaid is telling the public that bad news is functionally indistinguishable from enemy propaganda, which implies that the only reliable information is official information.

Posted by: Pat | Sep 27 2004 10:43 utc | 82

Gott mit uns!
Onward Christian Soldiers…
For King God and Justice…
In the next few months you will likely hear quite a bit about Iranian nuclear ambition. You will hear about the Iranian nuclear facilities at Arak and Natanz that Warblogging wrote about in December of last year. You will hear a lot about Iranian efforts to influence Iraqi politics. You will hear a lot about Iranian sponsorship of terrorism, including allegations that Iran in some way supports al-Qaeda. You will hear ever more along these lines.
Those are exactly the noises we are hearing now from BushCo. The only impediments to that action right now are the Nov 2 election and the fact that our troops are over engaged in the hopeless “pacification” effort in Iraq. If BushCo wins, disemberment would be a very logical step, both freeing the resources and increasing the “justification, for action against Tehran. Do you feel that Draft?

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 27 2004 11:02 utc | 83

Israel has succeeded in reducing the level of violence it faces by more than 70 percent.[…]

Two questions about this statement? Where does he get the data to support this, and does this supposed reduction come only from robust military force or is the Apartheid Wall also a factor?
Yeah I suppose we can kill them all, it will take a bit longer and few more of our folks will get whacked as well but I guess that is the only path available, right? Then after millions have died we can retreat in disgrace and go about getting on with our lives.
I hope someone is enjoying all this.

Posted by: Dan of Steele | Sep 27 2004 11:02 utc | 84

@Dan of Steele
Diehl goes on to compare the numbers of terror victims (killed) within Israel from 2002, ’03, ’04. If you recall just how bloody 2002 was, then you can appreciate, even without exact numbers at your immediate disposal, how comparatively quiet it is now.
I do not know the extent to which the wall has contributed to the drop-off in major terror incidents – and I don’t know how much of the wall has been completed to date – but you can hunt around for analyses.

Posted by: Pat | Sep 27 2004 11:58 utc | 85

@B:
Two links follow, which could be used for a thread topic:
Hoar and Klass on Iraq
Iraq Endgame
Both well worth reading real carefully.

Posted by: Walter Crankcase | Sep 27 2004 13:00 utc | 86

Now For Something Completely Different!
Danse Macabre
Or A DAY IN THE LIFE OF BRAVO COMPANY
Or 11B Meets 92M

Posted by: Walter Crankcase | Sep 27 2004 13:16 utc | 87

@Dan of Steel et al.
Haaretz: Victors beware
as long as Israel does not eliminate the reason for the Palestinian revolt, the reality will defy its declaration of victory.

Posted by: b | Sep 27 2004 15:16 utc | 88

Anna & Ross:
I guess I don’t dismiss Naomi Klein’s theory entirely, but in my opinion the economic utopianism was a secondary motivation. As for the re-
Baathification and inability in spending the aid money, I always assumed that was because the security situation had gotten so god-awful. But my opinion isn’t set in stone – I’ve heard claims that part of the reason
for the delay in aid is to give the US more leverage over the elected Iraqi government. I’m sure movements towards free market reforms would
“clear the bureaucratic backlogs” or whatever. (Come to think of it, I likely read that first on the Whiskey Bar!)
Pat:
You’re quite right, and I was wrong: an interrogation that does not defeat an imminent plot is hardly useless. Nor do I disagree with your conclusions, except to note that your scenario in the original post
may be too optimistic, given what we know about treatment of al-Qaeda
suspects in Gitmo. Of course, threatening torture by Pak police and the actual application of it by CIA interrogators might go together just fine.

Posted by: Harrow | Sep 27 2004 15:55 utc | 89

@ remembereringgiap
Willy Reich indeed..the EMOTIONAL PLAGUE that Dr Wilhelm Reich spoke of warningly in the 1930’s, the same plague that swept across Europe and became the scourge that we called fascism or nazism.Ithas now jumped the pond and it’s host is aMerica (Bushspeak).
Hitler is said to be a genius of politics. That alone should tell us what politics really is. – Wilhelm Reich, “Mass Psychology of Fascism”, 1933

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 27 2004 20:36 utc | 90

Politics is the art of preventing people from taking part in affairs which properly concern them.
–Paul Valery–
Which would seem to explain a lot about the strategy our ‘conservatives’ are employing. And our place is to enlighten ourselves and then others till we realize how much these affairs really are our business. Skillfully and patiently.
Affection and best wishes to Billmon getting his patience back.

Posted by: Citizen | Sep 27 2004 22:19 utc | 91

threatening torture by Pak police and the actual application of it by CIA interrogators might go together just fine.
Posted by: Harrow | September 27, 2004 11:55 AM
Interrogators, CIA or otherwise, don’t actually engage in physical contact with a prisoner. Or, if there is physical contact, it’s very, very minimal. (I don’t deny rule-breaking, but only point out how it generally, and with good reason, works.) The prisoner must see the interrogator as the person in charge – that is, as the person who can intervene on his behalf to bring to a halt any undesirable treatment.
Not for nothing were the worst direct offenders at Abu Ghraib MPs. Not because they’re by nature more brutal – they’re not – but because their professional role and work mentality is very different from that of an interrogator. They subdue.
Usually if an interrogator is implicated in prisoner abuse it’s because he/she made unlawful requests of the prisoner’s guards/captors, not because he/she abused the prisoner himself/herself.
Just thought I’d clarify.

Posted by: Pat | Sep 28 2004 6:30 utc | 92