Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 8, 2004
Addictive Oil

by DeAnander (posted earlier on Open Thread)

To understand oil as an addictive substance requires, I think, an historical critique of energy consumption. Illich’s analysis of “energy slaves” as a substitute for human slavery might be a good place to start (“Energy and Equity” iirc). To consume fuels of some sort for cooking, for staying warm in winter, for making pottery, for smoking meat and fish, etc. is a long human tradition, just as it’s a long human tradition to ferment the juice of whatever’s handy and make some kind of tipple. Many cultures/people can handle their tipple all right, and integrated it into a healthy community life. However, alcoholism as an addictive behaviour pattern does exist, is well-attested, and causes harm; and imho petro-addiction also exists and is a major cause of various kinds of harm in our contemporary world.

An America in which the average person is said to walk less than one mile in an entire year — where people use their cars to drive down their driveways and pick up the mail in the mailbox — where children are ferried two blocks to school in 6000 lb SUVs — where motorised tie racks, garden hose reels, etc. are viable consumer goods — is an America aspiring to the indolent lifestyle of kings and pharaohs, supported by an infinite supply of energy slaves. This I would call addiction: the teenager who whines that he “can’t walk” three whole blocks, the American family that drives its 4 bikes on the back of its SUV 10 miles round trip to go for a 2 mile ride in a park; the American who easily racks up 20,000 Frequent Flyer miles every year, the 3-person family living in a 5000 sq ft home with 3 freezers and 5 TVs… in consumer culture there is no such thing as “enough”. The very daily fabric of many people’s lives has become dependent on consuming a hugely disproportionate amount (globally speaking), and an ever increasing amount, of a finite resource. (cf Affluenza, Shovelling Fuel for a Runaway Train, Luxury Fever and other critiques of the “infinite consumption” culture).

We can consume anything in quantities or in ways that match the pattern of abuse/excess/harm that we call ‘addiction’ — be it alcohol or other drugs, food, sex, or energy. The main qualities of addiction are that: (a) the consumption is excessive, and returns are diminishing so that more and more must be consumed to get the same thrill, (b) there is harm to self and others, and that harm is staunchly denied, (c) the desperate need for the consumable causes a rotting of moral fibre such that the addict is willing to sacrifice probity, honour, ideals in order to feed the habit.

I think we can see the pattern of excess in ever-escalating energy consumption as a marker of “affluence” [imho actually of laziness and stupidity, but that’s a minority opinion] in American consumer culture; in the staunch denial of harm (environmental damage, toxicity, global warming, road danger and vehicular manslaughter, etc); and in the amount of power and criminal behaviour permitted to the “dealer” (the oil cartels and oil-mafia families like the House of Bush and the House of Saud, not to mention the House of Rice, the House of Cheney, the House of Lay and many others). America’s smash-n-grab raid on the gas station that is Iraq very much resembles, to this jaundiced eye, a similar attack by any junkie on any ready source of drug money in any grimy inner city on Earth.

Consuming water can also take a similar path when water is scarce enough to be valuable and is squandered by an affluent few as a means of displaying status. We might say that in this case it’s the display of status that’s addictive, not the water itself; perhaps the same is true of petroleum, since (except for a few loonie gas-fume sniffers of school age) no one really drinks or snorts the stuff direct. But as a metaphor, addiction seems to me a fairly good fit for the dysfunctional relationship currently obtaining between Americans and other G7 dwellers, and the fossil fuel on which their profligate lifestyle is based. Like winos struggling in the gutter over the last of the bottle, we seem ready to humiliate ourselves and roll in any dirt, not to mention gouge the other guy’s eyes out and kick him in the kneecaps and nuts, in order to get that last gulp. It’s a pathetic [imho] and degrading spectacle.

Comments

obligatory complementary reading for this article:
thorstein veblen
“the theory of the leisure class”

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 8 2004 21:05 utc | 1

@bernhard:
that was me (name). looks like you now *have* to check the “Remember personal info?” button for it to place the info in the signature line.

Posted by: name | Sep 8 2004 21:07 utc | 2

“We can consume anything in quantities or in ways that match the pattern of abuse/excess/harm that we call ‘addiction’ — be it alcohol or other drugs, food, sex, or energy. The main qualities of addiction are that: (a) the consumption is excessive, and returns are diminishing so that more and more must be consumed to get the same thrill, (b) there is harm to self and others, and that harm is staunchly denied, (c) the desperate need for the consumable causes a rotting of moral fibre such that the addict is willing to sacrifice probity, honour, ideals in order to feed the habit.”
I’ll take these one at a time:
Excessive consumption: Exceeding what? That which is required to get to and from work? That which is required to run a railroad or a fleet of tractor trailor trucks or an airline? Who consumes fuel in quantities greater than they actually require in order to carry on their day-to-day business?
Consuming ever more to get the same thrill: Unless you are acquainted with some very strange people, there is no “thrill” in purchasing oil or gas. But let’s change this to “consuming ever more” to achieve the same result. What of that? Well, given that engines of every type now produce more energy, or power, per unit of fuel than thirty years ago, I’m hard put to credit the assertion.
Causing harm to self and others: Do you mean the kind of harm that lands one in traffic court and results in higher insurance premiums? Or the “harm” that results in a theory of atmospheric change that is still the subject of debate and dispute? Or, perhaps the harm of air pollution that is, in developed nations, less than it was a half-century ago and still decreasing?
As for our rotting moral fibre: I gather our moral fibre’s been rotting longer than the internal combustion engine’s been around, but if you can convincingly argue that oil is corrupting our souls and our manners, then the drinks are on me.

Posted by: Pat | Sep 9 2004 0:03 utc | 3

@Name:
It’s nice to see someone remembers who Thorstein Veblen is.
Thank you for helping me remember.

Posted by: Mrs. Bradley Martin | Sep 9 2004 1:49 utc | 4

I do agree with you DeAnander. And yes we’ll need to learn to consume “what’s necessary” and nothing more and it’s going to be hard for many who’s main purpose of life is to HAVE more and more. Miserable creatures who otherwise would just blow their heads if they lose it. Consumer culture made this way of life replacing anything of significance. It is possible to change a lot of this “way” but it will not make this much money. I suppose we are going to witness a pick time of greed and immorality but for those who survive it there will be no choice but to change…drastically. And they will. At least for some time.Same old story I suppose. If only Earth survives this time being livable place.

Posted by: vbo | Sep 9 2004 2:28 utc | 5

Someone said once, can’t remember who, an argument of fact, framed as a metaphore always requires deconstructing the metaphore before the fact. Maybe the metaphore” addicted” should be seen, in relation to oil, as only a very broad generality.
I would suggest that our use of oil (energy) has, as it has evolved over the last century, helped to determine and create the physical infrastructure of society, in such a way that energy consumption is an integral and necessary component. And that this component has givin rise to cultural elements that both celebrate it’s use, and perpetuate the expansion of its use.
The physical layout of the USA has in large measure been realized with the assumption that the layout can be continuously expanded and interconnected to meet the needs the of an individual, as opposed to the larger community. Hence, we are hardwired into a system that demands an excessive consumption of energy— and driving 4mph on a clogged parking lot freeway, from a job 35 miles away from the suburban home, thats 10 miles from the Wal-Mart, and thinking…if I’m going to be in my car for 3 hours a day it better be cool(sport) ,usefull(utility), mobile(vehicle), and entertaining (music,phone,DVD)
It’s not suprising, that out here in the Pacific NW, that the urban legend would arise that, Eskimos, upon getting money from fur sales, would go out and buy a snow-mobile, and drive it until the gas ran out, then return to the dealer wanting another one. Only a people, so rendered physically, and psychically to the notion that freedom = consumption, could produce such a myth. Addiction, disease, moral debasement, lack of forsight, denial, who knows, probably all the above.

Posted by: anna missed | Sep 9 2004 3:38 utc | 6

@Pat
Who consumes fuel in quantities greater than they actually require in order to carry on their day-to-day business?
For starters, how about the clowns I see careening around an inland lake in these ridiculous offshore powerboats with twin 1000+ hp engines?
Yeah, I can certainly understand their crying need to get from one end of the lake to the other in under twenty minutes.

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 9 2004 4:53 utc | 7

Here’s the thing.
The entire population of the world could fit into Tasmania (not that the Tasmanians would be too happy about it).
That’s say 6 billion (America, India, China – the lot). The population density would be about 211,000 per square mile (somewhere between “efficient” and “dense” in urban demographics parlance.
In the early 18th century, half-starved women would give birth to up to 20 children. Maybe 2 of them would survive long enough to procreate. There was no population “crises” then.
Industrial Age Britain was filthy.
If the Industrial Revolution had never happened, the inland lakes would still be pristine, and you would be able to count on living to maybe a ripe old age of 46 if you didn’t die of starvation along the way.
Not that we shouldn’t protest against ecological vandalism. Not to argue that much of modern life is somewhat sterile and people can get wrapped-up in consumerism.
But be reasonable. The growing middle classes throughout the world (not just the G7 nations) – always opt for the very same options.
Peasant life in rural feudal societies might look idyllic in the National Geographic – but most of the 6 billion people on this planet would opt for consumerism if given a chance.
The biggest challenge of our age is learning to live with each other. Something that is made extremely difficult by the current crop of loonies running America.
Oil and energy is not a long-term problem. But we will need a lot more unless you subscribe to the middle-class racism that thinks development is only for the chosen few.

Posted by: DM | Sep 9 2004 8:14 utc | 8

pardon my digression back to metaphor, no, my re-embrace of metaphor, in the above post. the intertwined physical / cultural nature of energy consumption in the us is so implacable it makes me wanna jump into the back seat as thelma & louise drive off that cliff.

Posted by: anna missed | Sep 9 2004 8:34 utc | 9

I was with you right up to the garden hose reel…. which uses no fuel and is an extremely helpful technology going back before internal combustion engines. There are better emblems of wasteful, slothful oil consumption.

Posted by: eb | Sep 9 2004 13:15 utc | 10

Peasant life in rural feudal societies might look idyllic in the National Geographic – but most of the 6 billion people on this planet would opt for consumerism if given a chance.
***
Well I do not advocate “rural feudal societies” all tho it looks very desirable (from the distance and in my age), simply because it takes a “feud” (fortune) to be able to live that way and most of the people are not even given a choice where to live today…they must live anywhere where they can find job. Big cities, off course. I simply would like to kick ass of those Australians that would like to make as a condition for new immigrants to live in rural Australia. What they are bloody going to do and what to live on in rural Australia?
Anyhow…there are million ways to live quality life and consume much less. There is no one out there to remind us how to get friends and family again back in our lives instead of go shopping. But point is that through TV propaganda they advocate consumerism cause let’s face it they are grabbing extreme record profits every single year by doing so. And by making us addicted to consumerism they simply made slaves of all of us. We are borrowing money as crazy to ease a pain of not being able to buy all those great thingies we have seen on TV. Brain washing. And yes if you ask say 30 years old man/woman today if he/she would rather have some quality time with parents (that he/she only see for Christmas) or even some forgotten friends OR buy a shiny new SUV, I guess we all know the most probable answer. Our angle of viewing things is twisted nowadays. People are ready to give up on having their own families and even children in order to make more money and supposedly live more comfortable life. They end up not having a time to live at all. Work and slip…And our great leaders are planning now to prolong our working life to the age of 70.Work until you drop is a new policy. If you are “lucky” to survive 70 you’ll have to spend all you have on a great medicine they are working on to make you live long enough.

Posted by: vbo | Sep 9 2004 14:38 utc | 11

Excessive consumption: Exceeding what? That which is required to get to and from work? That which is required to run a railroad or a fleet of tractor trailor trucks or an airline? Who consumes fuel in quantities greater than they actually require in order to carry on their day-to-day business?

I’ve never been able to get the words right for one of those so-called observational laws–but it goes something like this:
People waste stored energy in inverse proportion to their “connection” to it.
I know I need to firm up that word “connection.”
Let me try:
Fat on one’s body–that is stored energy–and a person’s connection to those stores is primary. I’d give fat cells a connection value of 100.
Gasoline in one’s car–that is stored energy–and a person’s connection to it is tertiary at best (a mere transaction). I’d give petro a connection value of 5.
Now according to my observational law:
People waste little of their stored fat cells –> 1/100 = 1%.
And waste very much of their gasoline stores–> 1/5 = 20%.
Enough for the stinky numbers, let me show by some examples:
We have all seen cars and trucks left idling for 10,20,30 minutes. That’s waste. It happens every day–1000s of times.
Should those people behave the same with with their more “connected” energy stores, they would be jogging in place even as their vehicles idle.
Another example:
Americans are notorious for accelerating at red lights. There is no sense of coasting. That’s waste. Should these folks behave the same way with their more “connected” energy stores they would walk at top speed at a closed door, slam back on their heels on reaching it, open it, and immediately return to full walking speed.
Ever see people walking that way?
How about driving that way?
People waste stored energy in inverse proportion to their “connection” to it.
And of course I am merely beating around the bush here. As some of you have noted, we are disconnected, from ourselves, from each other, and from nature.
Those disconnections are why there is no true cost accounting.
No sense of what 10 miles per gallon really means. No sense of the true value of a gallon of gas.
No sense of the good and honest work that those laboriously stored chems in a gallon of gasoline can do for us.
Here is way to get connected in hurry:
Get out and push your car down the street.
Ain’t it amazing the work that gasoline is doing?
Here is another way to get connected in a hurry:
Run a hose from your tailpipe to the inside of your car. Ain’t it amazing the good work the atmosphere is doing for you?
Instead of these primary connections to the world, to ourselves, and even to our machines–all we have is a sense of marketplace.
And let’s face it, the marketplace so often behaves like an invisible hand made of 5 awkward and brutal thumbs.

Posted by: koreyel | Sep 9 2004 15:59 utc | 12

vbo writes: “People are ready to give up on having their own families and even children in order to make more money and supposedly live more comfortable life.”
This is interesting. There was recently an op-ed in the Washington Post (I’ll see if I can dig it up) that claimed, with some statistical evidence, that birth rates in politically/religiously conservative areas of the US have been rising, while birth rates in traditionally liberal areas have been falling.
I believe it is also true that Western Europe, which on the whole is much more liberal than the US, has a lower birth rate than the US – whose relatively high birth rate is the exception among industrialized nations.
Any thoughts?

Posted by: Pat | Sep 9 2004 16:33 utc | 13

Spawn till you die?

Posted by: beq | Sep 9 2004 16:35 utc | 14

Re:
My 12:33 post:
Earlier today on the freshly opened open thread a nameless poster linked to an article on declining US and European birth rates. It would appear that while Americans are still having children in greater numbers than their counterparts across the Atlantic, the US birthrate (1.7) has nevertheless fallen below replacement level (2.1). So Americans in general (which does not include any of the Catholics I know) are not reproducing with anything like wild abandon. This is true despite the fact that inflation-adjusted median household income has doubled since 1950, when the birthrate hit its post-war peak of 3.7. It is far more affordable to raise a family now than it was then, but fewer offspring are coming off the assembly line.
If you’re a true environmentalist this is good news because… well, because humans are bad news, especially those of the American variety, who, with sadly few exceptions, like nothing so much as to jump in their V-8 Double Cab F-150s (fueled by gas stolen from a third-world country) for a three-block drive to the Home Depot for a purchase of lumber freshly harvested from an old growth forest that will soon make way for a Super Wal-Mart or landfill or weapons testing range.
So brighten up. We’re not reproducing. Much.

Posted by: Pat | Sep 9 2004 18:07 utc | 15

Has the stunning economic progress of the past century and the increased material well-being of Americans come at the expense of degrading our natural environment? Economist John Kenneth Galbraith voiced the prevalent attitude in the 1960s and 1970s about economic growth and the environment in his book The Affluent Society: “The penultimate Western man, stalled in the ultimate traffic jam and slowly succumbing to carbon monoxide, will not be cheered to hear from the last survivor that the gross national product went up by a record amount.” Vice President Al Gore agrees; his book Earth in the Balance argues that we have been mortgaging our future through our mindless pursuit of economic growth. The surprisingly good news is that the economic progress of the last century has not come at the expense of clean air. Rather, economic growth has generally corresponded with imporovements in the natural environment.
The national picture on air quality shows improvement for almost every type of pollution – with particularly dramatic declines in carbon monoxide, sulfur, and lead. Lead concentrations have fallen precipitously, by more than 90 percent since 1976. The total volume of lead emissions was lower in 1990 than it was in 1940…and was lower in every intervening year.
Ambient air pollution levels have been decreasing steadily since the 1970s. Between 1976 and 1997, levels of all six major air pollutants decreased significantly: sulfur dioxide level decreased 58 percent, nitrogen dioxides decreased 27 percent, ozone decreased 30 percent, carbon monoxide decreased 61 percent, and lead decreased an overwhelming 97 percent.
An incredible success story is the decline in pollution per unit of output. From 1940 to 1990 air pollution emissions fell by 3 percent per year relative to output – suggesting that America has become far more environmentally efficient in recent decades. In fact, we now produce about six times more output per ton of emission of air pollution than we did before 1920.
Equally impressive is that emissions per capita have fallen by almost half over the past 50 years even though we produce and consumer far more today than in the 1940s.
********
The major driving forces behind an improved environment are affluence and technology. Technological improvements and new inventions have helped combat the worst kinds of pollution…The automobile, although it emits carbon monoxide into the air, replaced a far more polluting form of transportation: the horse, which left huge piles of dung on the roads. As economists William Baumol and Wallace Oates have noted, from an environmental standpoint, the automobile is “certainly an improvement from the incredibly filthy streets and waterways of medieval and Renaissance cities.”
It’s Getting Better All The Time, Greatest Trends of the Last 100 Years, Stephen Moore and Julian L. Simon

Posted by: Pat | Sep 9 2004 18:44 utc | 16

“The automobile, although it emits carbon monoxide into the air, replaced a far more polluting form of transportation: the horse, which left huge piles of dung on the roads. As economists William Baumol and Wallace Oates have noted, from an environmental standpoint, the automobile is “certainly an improvement from the incredibly filthy streets and waterways of medieval and Renaissance cities.””
LOL thanks for the laugh, Pat, that’s just hilarious. Particularly the “horse dung”. That’s just one step below Reagan’s “trees are the cause of the pollution” 🙂
The problem isn’t the relative (or proportional) pollution imput, which decreases in a number of key areas, but the total amount. We produce way more per capita than 30 years ago, and we have way more people polluting. So, yes, I agree that technology can be a good thing now that we’re in deep shit, but it can only work if we drastically reduce population. And I don’t mean trying not to hit the 10 bio mark, I mean going down to something like 2 bio people or even less. In this regard, the West and China do far better than the rest of the world, and I hope Africa and Asia will soon follow, because they’re the biggest problem in this regard. BTW, it seems that countries like Sweden and France have the highest birthrights in Europe. Damn pinko hippies.
“economic growth has generally corresponded with imporovements in the natural environment”
Complete BS. The only countries that wouldn’t have much trouble following the Kyoto agreement during the late 90s were the former communist bloc’s, because their economy collapse and their industrial production was shit. BTW, they’re going back up nowadays. If you study economic crises, you’ll see people reduce their overall consumption and drive far less, so much less greenhouse gas, and overall pollution. Right now, as long as mankind is mostly unwilling to act, I see 2 solutions short-term speaking: a massive plague, let’s say something like Ebola, but propagating like the flu; a massive global economic crisis which would make jobless half the planet. Otherwise, we’re quite doomed. Unless of course people become a bit more enlightened and decide to get rid of current govts, political systems, economic systems, and start from scratches to build a sustainable world, and by sustainable I mean something which can literally lasts thousands of years without self-caused major crises (as opposed to, say, a big asteroid crashing on Earth, which may still happen).

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Sep 9 2004 19:07 utc | 17

“LOL thanks for the laugh, Pat, that’s just hilarious. Particularly the ‘horse dung’.”
Clueless, perhaps you’d like to share the reason for finding this so humorous.
“If you study economic crises, you’ll see people reduce their overall consumption and drive far less, so much less greenhouse gas, and overall pollution.”
So villages, towns, and cities are cleaner, living conditions better, and citizens generally healthier, in poor countries than in affluent ones? Should presidential and congressional candidates campaign on a platform of reducing our median household income and purchasing power and increasing levels of poverty and scarcity in order to improve our environment?
“The problem isn’t the relative (or proportional) pollution imput, which decreases in a number of key areas, but the total amount. We produce way more per capita than 30 years ago, and we have way more people polluting.”
Why, then, are our skies cleaner than they were 30 years ago?
“we’re quite doomed.”
Doomed by material prosperity and a cleaner environment? Doomed by longer lifespans, fewer diseases, and increased physical well-being? Doomed by declining birth rates? Doomed by greater leisure and convenience?
Or simply plagued by those who, like screwy street corner prophets, always and invariably insist that the sky is about to fall, the end is nigh?

Posted by: Pat | Sep 9 2004 20:03 utc | 18

This from you on addiction to “oil” “energy” is very fine. At my house we’ve talked about it for a lot of years. At my house we are very fossil fuel conscious. Drive an older tiny car that gets 35-40 MPG, ONLY when we MUST. My husband’s major transportation for most of his life has been a motorcycle. We try to drive as little as we can and still make “a living”. Addiction… since its framing as something solely about psychoactive substances is what we read most often, I think that most people don’t understand the difference betweeen substance addiction and process addiction. In the case of consumptive energy it is both, substance and process … at least I see it that way. I think it’s instructive however to mention that cold turkey versus moderation where gasoline and cars is concerned is getting little mention. Eventually I think there will be no choice.
I just got a flyer in the mail about a new farmers’ type market that opened within five blocks of my house. The once-a-week market is about the same distance. I loathe driving in S. California. The glut of vehicles and the unconsciousness of driving 60+ miles or more per day boggles my mind. My goal is to keep looking for work within a mile of my house.
Progress. What’s in a name? 😉

Posted by: Kate_Storm | Sep 9 2004 20:13 utc | 19

Pat

“The automobile, although it emits carbon monoxide into the air, replaced a far more polluting form of transportation: the horse, which left huge piles of dung on the roads.

Do you really want to stand by this statement? You really don’t see how silly that is? As far as I know, a horse is 100% biodegradable, are any of your cars biodegradable? What about the energy expended in making this car such as plastic, rubber, electronics, upholstery, lubricants, coolants, glass, alloys, aluminum, steel, and what ever else is in a car. A pile of horseshit pollutes more than the burnt oil, coal, or gas needed to produce any one of these??
I would like to add that all of the air improvement measures as well as water purity acts have been the result of forward looking people passing them over the screams and wailings of conservatives and big business. Technology is available for us to cut all pollution to zero right now.

Posted by: Dan of Steele | Sep 9 2004 20:40 utc | 20

People
Actually, Pat has a real point with horse dung; in the late 19th century, it was becoming a major cause of disease, inconvenience and unpleasantness in big cities, and cars were seen as a solution to that pollution. No link, but true…
Rich countries ARE more ecologically conscious. Ecology is a luxury. (that we should afford now)

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 9 2004 21:34 utc | 21

The US government is not now ecologically conscious and rules a rich country… I think that instead “rich countries” get to choose to be conscious or not. And the US government is not doing that now, but is damning the torpedos in the opposite direction.
This is not a question of methane produced by animal life on the planet … the question is about fossil fuel emmissions. The methane argument is down-right silly. Kill the cows… more SUVs… jeebus!

Posted by: Kate_Storm | Sep 9 2004 21:47 utc | 22

While it is true that the automobile was hailed as an environmental improvment in big cities, I think Dan makes a good point. And horse dung can be used as a fretilizer or burnt (dry dung, preferably) for the energy (it is done in many rural parts of Africa (and I suspect in many other parts of the third world)).

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Sep 9 2004 21:58 utc | 23

“Do you really want to stand by this statement? You really don’t see how silly that is?”
In 1900 there were 20 horses for every 100 US households. That’s a lot of shit lying around on busy thoroughfares, Dan, at a time when streams and rivers were open sewers, water treatment was primitive, and modern disinfectants were as yet unavailable. Even the urine-soaked Paris subway system is an enormous improvement over the noxious, noisome streets of a (literally) horse-powered world.
“A horse is biodegradable.” And a car doesn’t crap in the parking lot or drop dead on 5th Avenue in the summer heat.
“What about the energy expended in making this car such as plastic, rubber, electronics, upholstery, lubricants, coolants, glass, alloys, aluminum, steel, and what ever else is in a car.”
What about the time expended and the hazards encountered riding a Prairie Schooner from Sioux City, Iowa, to the Wyoming Territory? What about going horseback 20 miles, into town, in sub-zero weather? What about five days to travel a distance that is now covered in an afternoon?
And though I’ve nothing against horses as objects of recreation, you can’t make out in one while listening to the radio. Can you?

Posted by: Pat | Sep 9 2004 22:39 utc | 24

Re-reading the original text, I think this thread has spun some way of the track, as neither horses nor horse dung was mentioned there. 🙂
Cars doesn´t have to use oil, they can for example run on alcohol as the busses to in my hometown. And trains can run on electricity from water or nuclear power.
In the US the average inhabitant use significantly more oil than the average inhabitant in western Europe or in Japan. Thus even with higher gas-prices in Europe (due to taxation) it is a less important part of the household economy, and thus a less important part of the politics. So I think there might be something to this metaphor of addiction.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Sep 9 2004 22:52 utc | 25

I feel silly at this moment so I permit myself a silly question or two … how logical is it to compare methane from animal waste to automobiles? We are animals that contribute to the methane emissions, are we not? We eat. We defecate. Other mammals the same. There has been a great effort in the last 75 years to turn “want” into “need”. Do human beings “need” fossil fuel burning transportation? Or do they (in the West at least) simply “want” it? The question goes to the heart of what DeAnander wrote about addiction.
I think the entire comparison of animal waste produced methane with carbon-dioxide and other emissions a wholly ridiculous, false and dangerous dichotomy.

Posted by: Kate_Storm | Sep 9 2004 22:53 utc | 26

“how logical is it to compare methane from animal waste to automobiles?”
It is not logical at all since the neither methane or carbodioxide is problematic in and of itself. It is rising levels of it that is problematic. And the methane (and carbodioxide) produced from animals is recycled in the athmosphere to make more animals. Likewise, carbodioxide from oil wouldn´t be a problem if it was made out of carbodioxide in the air. But it is not.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Sep 9 2004 23:00 utc | 27

Pat
I agree that it is more fun to make out in a car than under a horse.
Everyone knows that horses are slower than cars, that is not the issue. You stated that horses pollute more than cars. This is not true IMHO.
As for the Paris sewers, people poop is a lot worse than horse poop (disease and whatnot) and I am certain that people outnumbered horses in Paris by a vast majority.
Having come from a farm and being more familiar with poop than I care to be I will tell you that I am not aware of any health risk from horse poop. Please enlighten me.

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 9 2004 23:03 utc | 28

oops, scratch Paris from last post and replace with any metropolis with horses.

Posted by: Dan of Steele | Sep 9 2004 23:10 utc | 29

Ban humans, horses and cows! Do it now. The fate of the Happy Planet hinges upon it. 😉 Oh, and while you’re at it, ban all those fluorocarbon producing flowering trees like crepe myrtle that Ronnie Raygun was so opposed to. But don’t look at fossil fuels. Don’t do it. Just say no. 😉

Posted by: Kate_Storm | Sep 9 2004 23:13 utc | 30

Pat: OK, let me be clear: anyone who compares real effective pollution that affects in the long-term the environment at large, like cars, to horse dung, which is basically just trash, is just way out of his or her mind. If I wanted to nitpick, I would also mention that we now have far more cars than we ever had horses in the good old days.
Of course, the funny bit is that contrary to what Kate and Dan seem to think, you didn’t even think of the methane produced by dung but just that it is, well, dirty.
In fact, we don’t need to go back to full-horse mode; having more and more efficient public transportations will already be a big improvement. People didn’t really jump from the horse to the car, they went from horse to train and tramway, then to the bus, and ultimately to the car.
Global and massive pollution isn’t people not having enough money to buy TV, it’s about lakes dying, depletion of fishing stocks and destruction of the ozone layer, for instance. The more money people have, the more they consume, and therefore waste. If you’re purely green, you may want to consider the extinction of the human race as a good solution, if not the only one. If you’re not only green but traditional leftist, you have to find a way to let people have decent living standards (so not too far of things you mentioned) but making sure it doesn’t mean the whole planet will be wrecked by these high standards and high levels of consumption and pollution – strictly limiting population as well as applying very high-tech, far higher than the crap we have to deal with now, sound like the way to go, even if strict population limitations is quite an issue with leftist or libertarian, of course.
Then of course I fully support pols who openly say Western way of life and Western incomes and GDPs will have to go down, because they mostly come from the major looting of the rest of mankind and of the planet as a whole.
Concerning bio-fuel, sure, they’re fine, but this will not be the solution, because you’ll need most of the agricultural production of the US to run all the cars in the country. Then, of course, most of this production is already wasted since 80% of the harvest feeds walking T-bones so that people can become obese by eating burgers, so that’s not as if it would change anything – except people would have to choose between McDonald’s and their car.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Sep 9 2004 23:55 utc | 31

Having come from a farm and being more familiar with poop than I care to be I will tell you that I am not aware of any health risk from horse poop. Please enlighten me.
Posted by: | September 9, 2004 07:03 PM
A horse produces 45 pounds of manure per day. [Holy crap!] This emission, in an urban context, typically generates a horrible smell and mess. Further, it provided a breeding ground for insects, vermin, and the diseases associated with filth. In contrast, the emission of an internal combustion engine powered vehicle pose a much smaller threat to human health.
Prosperity Without Pollution,
John Semmens
The Foundation for Economic Education
[Okay, I’m done talking about horse poop.]

Posted by: Pat | Sep 10 2004 0:02 utc | 32

@ horsemanure
Any attempt to compare/contrast our internal combusting lifestyles with horsepower is specious at best…and spurious at worst.
Fergetaboutit.
You are running around a millstone here, grinding stone into sand.
So fergetaboutit.
The real crux here…has been…and always well be…how can humanity make the best use of the finite, incredibly useful, chemical energy stored within petroleum?
I submit to you here and now…that allowing this beneficent (if not heaven-sent) fluid to be squandered in the propelling of multi-ton-metal-boxes-on-wheels at 10 mpg is a real sin against the legacy of all human beings everywhere and everywhen.
We can do better than that.
We should do better than that.
It is that simple.

Posted by: koreyel | Sep 10 2004 0:51 utc | 33

So now suddenly it’s good not to have children in order to save the Planet. We really are to face absurd full scale in our life time.
I don’t think I am to be called racist because I want my white race to survive…witch is not likely outcome as things are progressing at the moment. I wouldn’t like any other race to disappear too. So now when we reached a ‘paradise’ of comfort and consumerism in developed world ( predominantly white people’s territory) we are to disappear? May be some justification in it but I must admit I don’t like this outcome.
If Sweden and France have a highest birth rate in Europe you can be sure Turks and other immigrants of Muslim origin are responsible for it. Same in USA…Who are those people who have most of the children? I guess they are of Latin American origin and African-Americans mostly. Don’t get me wrong, those people are soooo in title to have as many children as they want, but what about white Americans/Europeans? They are on the mission to save this planet, I suppose…or egoistically enjoy conformism here and now. As far as I can see here in Australia (and I suppose it’s similar in USA) whom ever you people call “ white trash” , that’s a part of white population willing to have children (being without chance to participate in consumerism mania).But it’s not going to be enough.
It all is becoming an irony of big scale cause in order to have a strong and growing economy all those developed countries are going to need MORE PEOPLE. At the same time birth rate is on it’s way down back to 0. At this birth rate (and we are looking at whole population here including immigrants of all origins) for example here in Australia as close as next generation (20-50 years) will not have enough people working to support pensioners. Not to mention that there will not be enough youngsters to care for growing aging population in rest homes, hospitals or retirement villages. In one word not enough people will pay taxes to even maintain this country as it is (governments, army etc,) . The only answer will be immigration. Australia is a big and quite empty country but with not enough water for bigger population.
Incredibly but this same story apply for Europe that is already over populated. In order to be rich and stay rich , you’ll need more people. Where to find them but in a poor not developed world. If you bring them home they’ll outnumber you soon and take control at some point. So recently they decided not to bring them home but to exploit them right on the spot. This will make poor richer in a long term and damned consumers, as we are and their birth rate will drop. Goodness me…the logic is there but it becomes blurry …so where do we get more people?
Occupations are not an option I supose?…not in a long term at least…
I don’t really know what I am talking about any more.Or what to think. Does anybody in charge know what exactly they are doing?
One thing is for sure . World as we knew it is at it’s end…

Posted by: vbo | Sep 10 2004 4:42 utc | 34

I don’t really understand how you people came to the point to debate about horse’s shit and shit as such…haha
For Christ sake looks like we never passed 50-ies and 60-ies when even many scientists (not to mention governments) believed (and declared in writing) that nuclear weapon probe is actually healthy for children’s bones (just have seen the program last night about nuclear weapon probes here in Australia and USA and SSSR in 50 and 60-ies ).
Is there anybody there who needs to be convinced how bad environmentally is this scale of consumption of fossil fuel? C’mon ….

Posted by: vbo | Sep 10 2004 5:16 utc | 35

The evidence clearly shows that we are not headed for a major energy crisis. There is plenty of energy.
We have seen that although we use more and more fossil energy we have found even more. Our reserves – even measured in years of consumption – of oil, coal, and gas have increased. Today we have oil for at least 40 years at present consumption, at least 60 years’ worth of gas, and 230 years’ worth of coal.
At $40 a barrel…shale oil can supply oil for the next 250 years. There is uranium for the next 14,000 years. Our current energy costs make up less than 2 percent of the global GDP, so even if we were to see large price increases it would still not have a significant welfare impact – in all likelihood the budget share for energy would still be falling.
Moreover there are many options using renewable energy sources. Today, they make up a vanishingly small part of the global energy production, but this can and probably will change. The cost of both solar energy and wind energy has dropped by 94-98 percent over the last 20 years such that they have come much closer to being strictly profitable. Renewable energy resources are almost incomprehensibly large. The sun leaves us with about 7,000 times our own energy consumption – for example, covering just 2.6 percent of the Sahara Desert with solar sells could supply our entire global energy. It is estimated that wind energy realistically could cover upwards of half of our total energy consumption.
Notice that all of these facts do not contest that fossil fuels which today supply most of our energy are non-renewable – if technology remained constant and we kept on using just fossil fuels, we would some day run out of evergy. But the point is that technology does not remain constant and fossil fuels are not our only or main long-term energy source. First, the historical evidence shows that we have become constantly better able to find, extract and utilize fossil fuels, outpacing even our icncreased consumption. Second, we know that the available solar energy far exceeds our energy needs and it will probably be available at competitive prices within 50 years.
Consequently, it is surprising that over and over again we hear the stories that now we will run out of energy. The data show us that this is not plausible. As the US Energy Information Agency wrote in the International Energy Outlook 1999: “bleak pictures painted of the world’s remaining oil resource potential are based on current estimates of proven reserves and their decline in [a typical, theoretical] manner. When undiscovered oil, efficiency improvements, and the exploitation of unconventional crude oil resources are taken into account, it is difficult not to be optimistic about the long-term prospects for oil as a viable energy source well into the future.”
In the longer run, it is likely that we will change our energy needs from fossil fuels towards other and cheaper energy sources – maybe renewables, maybe fusion, maybe some as-of-now unimagined technology. Thus, just as the stone age did not end for lack of stone, the oil age will eventually end but not for lack of oil. Rather, it will end because of the eventual availability of superior alternatives.
The Skeptical Environmentalist, Measuring the Real State of the World
Bjorn Lomborg

Posted by: Pat | Sep 10 2004 5:25 utc | 36

“I don’t really understand how you people came to the point to debate about horse’s shit”
This came about because of the incredulous response to the statement that “the automobile replaced a vastly more polluting form of transportation: the horse.”
In any case, despair not; I believe we’re done with it. For now.

Posted by: Pat | Sep 10 2004 5:34 utc | 37

Hi would like to defend Pat here about the horse manure. Many years ago saw a book (sorry don’t remember the name anymore) with articles from the New York Times from about end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th centuries. One article that fascinated me the most was the problem, that in New York when it was dry and hot, the horse manure settled as dust in the houses and caused breathing problems. When it was raining it became a breeding ground for bacteria etc. This somehow impressed me and it stayed with me. My conlusion is that everything in excess is a problem even if it is bio.

Posted by: Fran | Sep 10 2004 6:20 utc | 38

As Tom Clancy said about Wolfowitz, “Is he really working on our side?”
Looks like he’s not the only one.

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 10 2004 7:50 utc | 39

Long plodding clop clop lines of single rider horses drenched with grey morning drizzil winding their way ever so slowly along shit encaked freeways toward the hazy silhouette of highrises ten miles in the mist away?
Time for a restart.

Posted by: anna missed | Sep 10 2004 8:32 utc | 40

Well a little bit more about consumerism. Here in Australia where economy is booming and flourishing and today they just announced budget surplus of $8 billion (unexpectedly high)… number of deaths by suicide are bigger then number of deaths from car accidents. Happy new Consumerism!
They are trying to introduce terms like “ buddy” to the people suffering depression. “Don’t be quiet, go talk to your “buddy””…they say…and people here are paying to have a dinner and an attempt of conversation with total strangers…Most of even young people never met their “best friend” cause all tho they talk every day it’s only thanks to Internet. That’s how far we have gone…

Posted by: vbo | Sep 10 2004 9:42 utc | 41

In the chapter on global warming, Kyoto, and the various policy options and resulting scenarios of the latter, The Skeptical Environmentalist’s author, Bjorn Lomborg states:
“(T)he environmental movement has an interest in greenhouse gas curbs which goes far beyond the narrow concerns of global warming. Perhaps the best illustration comes from an episode back in March 1989, when electrochemists B. Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischman shocked the world, announcing that they had achieved fusion at room temperature. As other researches tried and failed to to replicate cold fusion, it led to skepticism and today most researchers dismiss cold fusion as a grand illusion. Nevertheless, for a few short months, it was actually possible to believe that we had cold fusion within reach -essentially giving all humanity access to clean, cheap, and unlimited power.
“In April 1989 the Los Angeles Times interviewed a number of top environmentalists about their view on cold fusion.”
Lumborg then goes on to list the frankly horrified or dismayed reactions of Jerry Rifkin, John Holdren, Laura Nader, Paul Ehrlich, and Barry Commoner.
He writes, “What these statements of opposition to an almost ideal energy source show is that the relevant agenda is not about energy or the economics of energy. Indeed this could not be the case, since the question from the Los Angeles Times was originally formulated ‘what if cold fusion would be cheap and clean?’ Instead the opposition is based on a different agenda, focused on the potentially damaging consequences from using cold fusion. Essentially, the criticism points to other values, arguing for a change to a decentralized society which is less resource oriented, less industrialized, less commercialized, less production-oriented. Such an agenda is entirely valid, but it is important to realize that the discussion is no longer primarily about energy.
“So this is the reason as to why the global warming discussion sounds like the clash of two religions…[The approach I have presented] attempts to deal with the basic problem of global warming, and tries to identify the best possible policy to deal with it. But it does not ask of its solutions that they should also help fundamentally change the fabric of society.
“The other approach, using global warming as a springboard for other wider policy goals is entirely legitimate, but in all honesty these goals should naturally be made explicit. When the scenario modelers tell us that the B1 scenario is ‘best,’ they really tell us that they prefer a society with less wealth but also with less climate change. However, I think they really have to explicate this choice, given a difference in wealth of $107 trillion and a climate cost of ‘just’ $5 trillion. Likewise, will B1 really be better for the developing countries, loosing out on some 75 percent personal income?”
My own thought on this is that, while the environmental movement may have begun out of concern largely for polluted air and waterways, its primary source of anxiety and discontent has become scientific/industrial/urban/commercial society itself – that is, the modern world. Whereas early on the focus might have been the eradication of smoggy skies and filthy streams for better health and more attractive surroundings in a highly-developed nation or civilzation, the focus has gradually shifted to, or revealed itself to be, a questioning of, or opposition to, the nature and structures of our post-industrial existence.
That existence will never go, has never gone, unchallenged or unchanged, but there is irreconcilable difference between those who genuinely believe it’s a cancer, a scourge, a blight to be eliminated, and those to whom its maintenance, growth, and constant improvement are worthwhile.

Posted by: Pat | Sep 10 2004 10:00 utc | 42

Lomborg is just a fucking traitor and I can’t take seriously anyone who refers to this friggin sell-out hack.
It’s exactly what we’ve seen with Big Tobacco, find a few traitorous scum scientists that would gladly sell their soul and their parents for money, make them write 3rd rank pseudo-research book that argue that up is down, contrary to what 95% of serious scientists think, so that you can force the stupid media to play a moronic he said / she said game, just like we see now between Dems and Reps. As Krugman said, if Bush stated that Earth is flat, the headlines would be “Shape of the Earth: opinions differ”.
The true problem is that the current level of waste and consumption, and the current overpopulation, pose such a huge number of problems that you can’t simply solve one and everything will be rosy after that. You will still have 6 bio people to feed, that need clean water in increasing quantity, that will all want their McMansion, want their car, so that most of the country will be turned into parking lots, highways and suburbs, not to mention the complete destruction of any surviving wildlife and of countless species and ecosystems.
Lomborg just forgets a simple fact: mankind is one single animal species, and we’re currently speaking of the extinction of something like 50 to 70% of species more “advanced” than bugs.
Frankly, I know numerous scientists, and they definitely are not opposed to “scientific, urban, post-industrial structures. That’s also funny to mention first opposition to industrial world then to post-industrial world, since there’s quite a big difference between both. As far as I’m concerned, I sure think the commercial society is a pile of horse manure disease-plagued, but I’m not a wacko survivalist from the Montana militia, and clearly am one of the most pro-urban and pro-scientific people you could meet here around. Doesn’t mean I’m opposed to good standard of living, I’m opposed to the stupid waste that most aspects of society are – and in fact most human beings are -, with a technological level that is still very primitive in most aspects, and a scientific awareness that is closer to the Dark Ages than to the Enlightenment. But don’t worry, it’s not that people want a good and safe life that bothers me, and it is not the ultimate source of the problem. Many of the current environmental crap is caused by the current ultra-capitalist system that runs on waste and massive consumption, where people have to buy and dump stuff to increase sales, so that the GDP can increase. And most of the bad behaviour of people come from 2 sources: search for profit and competition, which are quite linked. If you get rid of these, you can then set up a socio-political system whose goals will be more reasonable and worthy: first, ensuring survival of life on Earth, second, ensuring survival of mankind on Earth, third, ensuring all all people everywhere have a decent life and decent living conditions – all those thought and sought out on a global level, with no care to tiny nations and borders.
vbo: Well, it’s clear that Africa and most of Asia has a lot more work to do than Europe or the US. We are doing our part in reducing the overpopulation; it’s on the environmental level that we have to work more, so that we can get more efficient and environment-friendly technologies that could then be implemented not only here but throughout the rest of the world. The average pollution is far lesser in poorer nations, but they’re increasing it and their booming populations are making up for their low per capita waste and pollution level. So, demographics surely show the biggest part of the burden will fall on their shoulders, sooner or later – not that there isn’t work left to do in the West, of course.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Sep 10 2004 11:06 utc | 43

CluelessJoe: “Lomborg is just a fucking traitor”
A traitor to what, exactly? To mankind? To an ideology? To science? This is not a rebuttal. If the facts are with you, argue the facts, not with ad hominems. The points raised in Pat’s quote do not seem unreasonable, and are rebuttable, if false.
I agree to your points about waste and misguided priorities of our societies, but this is a cultural/political issue, not one of science.
@vbo – the birth rate of immigrants in France is almost identical to that of “white” French, once adjusted for age.

Posted by: Another frog | Sep 10 2004 12:19 utc | 44

“The true problem is that the current level of waste and consumption, and the current overpopulation, pose such a huge number of problems that you can’t simply solve one and everything will be rosy after that. You will still have 6 bio people to feed, that need clean water in increasing quantity, that will all want their McMansion, want their car, so that most of the country will be turned into parking lots, highways and suburbs, not to mention the complete destruction of any surviving wildlife and of countless species and ecosystems… mankind is one single animal species, and we’re currently speaking of the extinction of something like 50 to 70% of species more ‘advanced’ than bugs.”
Clueless, some of these points are, without supporting evidence offered on your part, merely assertions. They deserve factual argument.
As for your ad hominem attack on the “sell out hack,” Mr. Lomborg, it’s no substitute for a refutation of the specific exerpts I’ve posted from his book. Or did you find nothing in the exerpts to disagree with?

Posted by: Pat | Sep 10 2004 12:35 utc | 45

If I quote “Unfit for command”, will people feel any need to actually refute my unsubstantiated claims about Kerry’s “undeserved” medals and “self-inflicted” wounds?

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Sep 10 2004 18:44 utc | 46

@ Pat
Well,
from the parts of Lombergs book that has been presented here, he seems really technologically deterministic. That people earlier has solved environmental problems is no gaurantee that they will in the future, and certainly no reason not to actively work for solutions. (Some ecological problems has not been solved and resulted in massive decline in population, for example this appears to have taken place on the Easter Islands.)
I could add that the ancient greek era of slave power ended because of lack of slaves (due mainly to changing economic and military structures) and not with a transition to sundriven steampower, despite the toys constructed by Hero of Alexandria (Robinson, N., “A brief history of utilisation of the sun radiation”, Actes de VIIe Congrès International d´Histoire des Sciences, Paris 1954). This just as a rebuttal to Lombergs assumption of the end of the oil-age.
If you would like to discuss the effects on carbon-dioxide on the climate I would ask which of the following statements you disagree with:
1. Carbon-dioxide is a greenhousegas.
2. The amount of carbon-dioxide in the athmosphere is rising and calculated to keep rising throughout this century to a level of twice or more of what it is today.
3. Raising the level of carbon-dioxide in the athmosphere to a level around the double of the maximum of what has been measured from the last 160 000 years will not seriously affect the climate.
If you answer I will try to hunt down good accesible sources to support the statement.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Sep 10 2004 18:59 utc | 47

Well that was a surprise (to find my somewhat rambling post promoted to a lead article).
I’m too busy to spend a lot of time responding to Pat’s various captious pseudo-arguments. Pat’s rhetoric in this instance is itself uncharacteristically facetious and dismissive, hardly an invitation to serious discussion (quite disappointing really, far below the standard of most of his/her other postings and commentary). Even if s/he were completely in earnest, how can one engage seriously any writer who cites Lomborg or Simon (or Sagoff or Stossel or the rest of the modern day Lysenkoists) as though they were reputable sources? Whatever next? Are we to start citing the National Enquirer? NASA moon landing was faked in Hollywood? Holocaust never happened? Government secretly controls our children’s minds with so-called “immunisations”? No conclusive evidence that chain smoking linked to cancer?
If anyone doesn’t already know the reputation these men have earned in the legit international science community, Partridge’s essay Gefaehrlicher Optimismus (available here in English) offers an accessible starting point. Checking their bio/bibs for (the conspicuous lack of) credentials, field work, refereed publications or primary research may also be illuminating. Whether sincere crackpot contrarians or professional purveyors of disinformation, their scientific reputation is nil and citing them in any serious argument is more or less like citing Uri Geller in a discussion of materials stress analysis.
A certain asperity in my tone may perhaps be forgiven if I mention that I’ve spent a working lifetime in the legit science community, where we have a low tolerance for cranks and a high level of distress about scientific illiteracy in contemporary US culture. In my somewhat informed opinion, the high profile “environmental contrarians” Pat cites are not scientists, not even lonely Galileos defending independent research finding against the established consensus; they are professional ideologues. They defend not a scientific or evidence-based position, but a quasi-religious ideology of free markets which, as an economic model, requires infinite growth as a presupposition. I am an equal-opportunity debunker in this regard: the former Soviet Union’s version of communism was based on the same Cornucopian nonsense and resulted in a comparable incidence of environmental mismanagement and disaster. The rest of the absurdities follow inevitably from this fundamental problem… Ptolemaic astronomy revisited, or perhaps Perpetual Motion would be the more apt analogy.
In metacomment-space it strikes me that Pat’s various fanfaronades — in their specifics but also in their adherence to the established pattern of this genre of political rhetoric — imho (ironically) seem to confirm my original proposal: that we may understand conspicuous resource consumption and the attendant doctrines of exceptionalism and entitlement as in some ways similar to addiction. The blustering, faux-jocular, defensive tone of Pat’s responses does bear a familial resemblance to the blustering and jocular way in which substance abusers often seek to deflect or repel any commentary on their addiction and its effects on self and family. “Nonsense! I actually drive a bit better when I’m tipsy! What do those doctors know anyway? I’m fine, I’m just fine, what problem? There is no problem.” And so forth. Perhaps there should be a 12-step program for those who feel “the American way of life is not negotiable” 🙂
I am sorry to enter into open conflict with another denizen of the usually-civilised watering hole, but waving charlatans like Lomborg and Simon at someone who makes a living in legit science is very much like waving the traditional red rag at the bull. The provocation was extreme. And at least I haven’t used any F-words 🙂

Posted by: DeAnander | Sep 10 2004 19:20 utc | 48

Sorry,
it should of course be:
3. Raising the level of carbon-dioxide in the athmosphere to a level around the double of the maximum of what has been measured from the last 160 000 years will seriously affect the climate.
Silly mistake.
Furthermore, if you agree with these statements but there is something I didn´t include in the list that you disagree with I am also interested. The construction of a final statement such as “burning oil releases carbon-dioxide into the air which will cause climate change” always depends on explicit, implicit and subconscious assumptions and I find it interesting to get mine own assumptions tried in a civil discussion.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Sep 10 2004 19:25 utc | 49

@DeAnander
Re: Partridge’s essay:
The author states that “we cannot ‘manage earth,’ precisely because the planet is not an ‘inert warehouse;’ rather, it is a lively place, more complex and ‘wonderful’ (literally ‘full of wonders’) than we can ever know or even imagine…(T)he biosphere is, to paraphrase J.D.S. Haldane, not only more mysterious than we suppose, but more mysterious than we can suppose.”
However, we must “cherish and preserve the [biosphere] that brought us here in the first place… We must “maintain the complexity of the global ecosystem…”
How, one must ask, are we to set about “preserving” that whose complexity, the author states, is beyond our understanding? How do we know when we are successfully “preserving” it and when we are not? How can we maintain, in its current state, a system whose intricate details we do not know and cannot imagine? Something cannot be both within and beyond our capacity to control, yet maintenance requires control over – mastery of – the thing to be maintained.
The author would put in charge of maintaining the unknowable complexity of the biosphere – which, make no mistake, includes all of the earth’s living organisms and their environments(s) – a species inhabiting an as yet insignificant portion of the globe. A species that, relatively speaking, only yesterday discovered agriculture and late last night embarked on the long road of scientific inquiry. A species still struggling to maintain itself upon this earth, albeit not without hard-won and astonishing success, must at the same time ensure the success, or preservation, of all other living organisms upon the planet, along with their respective environments. Man must be responsible, not simply for his own life, but for all life.
This is assuming, and we dare not, that he can scrape up the energy for it.
*************************
More later.

Posted by: Pat | Sep 11 2004 11:23 utc | 50

How, one must ask, are we to set about “preserving” that whose complexity, the author states, is beyond our understanding? How do we know when we are successfully “preserving” it and when we are not? How can we maintain, in its current state, a system whose intricate details we do not know and cannot imagine? Something cannot be both within and beyond our capacity to control, yet maintenance requires control over – mastery of – the thing to be maintained.
Seems to me a trifle odd to pick on this one turn of phrase in Partridge’s essay, but if we must . . . the objection to it doesn’t appear very substantive to me.
A 7 year old with a hammer may be induced to “preserve” a priceless 18th century chiming pocketwatch, not by understanding how it works or being able to recontstruct it, but simply by refraining from smashing it to bits.
Or, perhaps a more apposite analogy: I don’t understand the over-200 endocrinal and hormonal mechanisms necessary to keep this body of mine living another hour or two; even given a crash course in endocrinology, a stopwatch, a laptop computer and a lot of coaching, I could not possibly “manage” or control all those mechanisms well enough to keep myself alive — and I have to sleep sometime, too. Nevertheless I can “preserve” my health by maintaining my body generally in decent condition, avoiding toxins and unecessary risks, getting a balanced diet and enough sleep and water, etc., and letting its bogglingly complicated systems manage themselves, as they evolved to do.
I disagree entirely with the premise that we can only preserve anything by micromanaging or totally controlling it down to the last detail. Preservation of ecosystems is far more analogous to the “management” of one’s general health, and requires if anything a stepping back from the reductionist, Cartesian view of living systems as simple, knowable, controllable mechanisms. Refraining from doing harm, and cautiously doing what appears to help, are all that most living systems require in order to thrive.
Treating living systems like carburetors or FEA codes, thinking that we can tinker with one or another aspect of them in isolation or somehow take over a “controller” role in a living system, has been imho one of the roots of our folly and of gross failures and inefficiencies in our agriculture and other sectors.
To think that we can only benefit from or preserve something — be it the welfare of the people or the health of an ecosystem — by totalitarian control and micromanagement, is the Soviet error. Certain systems are so complex that the techno-managerial approach is doomed to failure. We’re living with the results of those failures on several fronts at present: our food, public health, and transport systems are badly broken, and the actuarial stats are starting to show it.
When the USSR got to this point — when there was no further real evidence of progress in public health, and substantive evidence of regression — the response was to deny and bury the research and insist (as do Lomborg, Simon, and their fellow Panglossians in our own time) that everything was fine, just fine. Flailing attempts to cover up the extent of the Chernobyl disaster were perhaps the last straw for governmental credibility: there was too much evidence known to too many people, and the tissue of secrecy, disinformation and denial crumbled.
The Bush regime has been busily suppressing many different kinds of scientific research, actuarial information, public health information etc. since coming to power. It remains to be seen how many years they can get away with playing the denial game.

Posted by: DeAnander | Sep 20 2004 6:42 utc | 51

Energy can not be destroyed ,it transforms from one form to another.
Then why not use its residual form,for another purpose(usefull-
purpose).Instead of contaminating the envirnoment.

Posted by: Mr Black | Sep 20 2005 12:08 utc | 52