Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 26, 2004
The Mailman

What better way to avoid talking about the nations dead of a war that started 17 month ago, than to talk about the survivors of a war that ended 375 month ago. The mailman may help Kerry for now, but the next round of ads will work on Kerry´s anti-Vietnam actions and will continue to lower his ratings.

Associated Press reports:

Former Georgia Senator Max Cleland, left, and former Green Beret Lt. Jim Rassmann, center, approach a Secret Service Agent, right, on station at the check point to the entrance of President Bush ‘s ranch Wednesday Aug. 25, 2004 in Crawford, Texas. Cleland tried to deliver a letter protesting ads challenging John Kerry’s Vietnam service to President Bush at his Texas ranch Wednesday, but the Secret Service stopped Cleland short of his goal.

The Cleland letter (PDF)

Bush Edges Ahead of Kerry for the 1st Time

For the first time this year in a Times survey, Bush led Kerry in the presidential race, drawing 49% among registered voters, compared with 46% for the Democrat. In a Times poll just before the Democratic convention last month, Kerry held a 2-percentage-point advantage over Bush.

That small shift from July was within the poll’s margin of error. But it fit with other findings in the Times poll showing the electorate edging toward Bush over the past month on a broad range of measures, from support for his handling of Iraq to confidence in his leadership and honesty.

Comments

Bernhard
You have this The Economist / YouGov poll which is much more favorable to Kerry

Posted by: Jérôme | Aug 26 2004 12:41 utc | 1

Ouch!
When Bob Dole Said No

Time in-country, how often a man was wounded, how much blood he shed when he was wounded — it is hurtful that those who served in Vietnam are being split in so vile a fashion, and that the wounds of that war are reopened at the instigation of people who avoided serving at all. It is hurtful that a man of Bob Dole’s stature should lend himself to the effort to dishonor a fellow American veteran in the service of politics at its cheapest.
There was a time when he would have refused. I know. I was there.
The writer was special assistant to President Richard Nixon from 1971 to 1974. He was assistant secretary of defense and director for special planning at the Defense Department from 1981 to 1986.

Posted by: Jérôme | Aug 26 2004 12:47 utc | 2

Thank you, Jerome, for that snippet from the Post (which I rarely read). There was a time when there was a sense of honor that would not have allowed one veteran to impugn the service of another, regardless of political differences, and Mr. Koch remembers it – as do I, having known men of the WW II generation and Korean War veterans.
But this Bush crowd seems to be a group of opportunities who will twist anything to stay in power. That Times poll is discouraging, even if another poll contradicts it. It means we are giving up and giving in in this country. People are not yet hurting enough personally to see the connection to Bush.

Posted by: francoise | Aug 26 2004 16:05 utc | 3

Thank you, Jerome, for that snippet from the Post (which I rarely read). There was a time when there was a sense of honor that would not have allowed one veteran to impugn the service of another, regardless of political differences, and Mr. Koch remembers it – as do I, having known men of the WW II generation and Korean War veterans.
But this Bush crowd seems to be a group of opportunists who will twist anything to stay in power. That Times poll is discouraging, even if another poll contradicts it. It means we are giving up and giving in in this country. People are not yet hurting enough personally to see the connection to Bush.

Posted by: francoise | Aug 26 2004 16:05 utc | 4

It’s been my belief for some time now that the Bushies’ Master Plan is to keep the candidates’ poll numbers neck-and-neck by the lavish application of slime, and then “fixing” the voting results in a few key districts in selected swing states.
This would serve the dual purpose of minimizing the number of people who needed to be in on the plan (always the Achilles’ Heel of conspiracies) and making it virtually impossible to prove fraud occurred.
Even if we didn’t have a primping gaggle of Media Whores ready to take up the chant of “Sore Losers” and “Get Over It”, I think they’d stand a good chance of getting away with stealing the election.

Posted by: prof fate | Aug 26 2004 19:13 utc | 5

Does anyone else here expect GWB to get the kind of statistical bounce out of his convention that Kerry didn’t seem to get out of his?
I’m guessing that the results for Bush out of NY will be very favorable – a significant jump, however short-lived.
I can’t say why, exactly, I have that feeling – only that I’ve had it ever since the Democratic National Convention in Boston.

Posted by: Pat | Aug 26 2004 19:47 utc | 6

The fact is Bob Dole is now s senile old man who likely had the words on CNN whispered in his ear by his wife through a microphone from back stage.
I am still not worried about the polls. Bushie will get a bump from the convention, but barely. But the real action will be when Busjie and Kerry debate. Kerry will rip him a new asshole. Unlike Bushie, Kerry has been debating on the senate floor for 15 years. I do believe he’s well versed in the tactics of debate.
Bushie is going to look like a fool. Remember in 2000, the media gave Bushie a free ride. All he had to do was hold his own and not make mistakes. Actually Gore kicked his simpleton ass.
I also, believe the Dems have their own October supprise to spring. Remember, Kerry was going to use Haliburton to roast Cheney and the admin. I believe there is some real dirt gonna come out.
Also, Edwards is a trial lawyer. He’s been keeping a fairly low profile. He’s planning for Cheney and they better have the paddles ready. Cheneys heart may need a jump when Edwards tears him a new one.

Posted by: jdp | Aug 26 2004 19:53 utc | 7

Pat I’m guessing that the results for Bush out of NY will be very favorable – a significant jump, however short-lived.
I can’t say why, exactly,

The media will take care that Bush makes a significant jump. To make it shortlived something has to go wrong for Bush after the convenetion, but there is enough waiting, Plame, more Abu Ghraib, more AlSadr, the stock market …
Prof Fate – the theory makes sense, but if they had control over the thing going neck-to-neck, why not putting Bush in lead? I don´t believe they bought ALL pollsters.
jdp – Gore kicked his simpleton ass and Bush is president.

Posted by: b | Aug 26 2004 20:02 utc | 8

A very interesting post (scroll down a few) on past elections and realignments at redstate.org. Definitely worth a read:
1936 All Over Again By: Thomas · Section: Election 2004
Let us not mince words: The Democrats have gone mildly mad.
By this, I do not mean that every Democrat the nation over has wandered into Michael Moore Land. Nor do I mean that (most) are currently foaming at the mouth in a paroxysm of Bushitler!! rage.
Rather, I mean to say that we are watching the Democrat Party begin the slow slide into semi-permanent minority status that characterized the Republican Party for the better part of five decades, and the reflexive, unsubstantiated loathing of the opposition’s party leaders that entails. The Democrats are, essentially, reliving the fall of 1936 all over again.
The parallels are obvious. From 1864 to 1932, the Republican Party was the dominant party in this country. The GOP captured all but four of the Presidential elections in that time span. Supreme Court jurisprudence trended (very vaguely) right (or at least, especially in the freedom of contract cases, sided with the Republican view). Congress was a generally Republican (or at least, usually not Democrat) club.
1936 was the turning point…

Posted by: Pat | Aug 26 2004 20:12 utc | 9

@Jdp:
You mean like when Edwards sums it up for the jury in a big civil suit.
Cheney debating Edwards would be almost as bad as him debating Gerry Spence.
It ought to be amusing. Wish they had 3 of those too.

Posted by: JR | Aug 26 2004 20:12 utc | 10

CBSnews Dirty Tricks, Patrician Style

This old [Bush]family has traditions – horseshoes, fishing, bad syntax and having the help do the dirty work in campaigns as well as the kitchen. And they are very good at getting jobs done without leaving fingerprints, without compromising their patrician image and their alleged character.
..
What Kerry and the Democrats do not have is an explicitly ideological cable network, a dedicated publishing house and a pantheon of sympathetic, wildly popular talk radio shows that essentially function as 527 groups.
..
But despite Kerry’s own Brahmin lineage, patrician bearing and vast wealth, he’s a poor relation when it comes to hiring help to do the dirty work.

A good read.

Posted by: b | Aug 26 2004 20:29 utc | 11

@Bernhard
“The media will take care that Bush makes a significant jump. To make it shortlived something has to go wrong for Bush after the convenetion, but there is enough waiting, Plame, more Abu Ghraib, more AlSadr, the stock market …”
You’re right, b, that two months is a long time campaign-wise and that much can, and will, happen.
But once a major scandal breaks and makes its initial run through the media and the collective consciousness, it becomes, without further shocking revelation, yesterday’s story. Abu Ghraib and Plame are in this category. Sistani has certainly done his part to give Bush a better news entry into the convention, thus minimizing the al Sadr effect.
That leaves the stock market and, well, whatever other nastiness the real world can dish out to the incumbent.
I almost feel I ought to apologize here for my stubborn pessimism on the Kerry campaign, which doesn’t possess the consolation of being conspiracy-driven. Most of this pessimism goes back to the party leadership’s decision not to oppose the Republicans on Iraq. I think they made a grave error – a failure to capitalize – and I’ve been gloomy about this election ever since.

Posted by: Pat | Aug 26 2004 20:39 utc | 12

Pat – I don´t know when the Dems decided not to go against the Iraq war or at least against the bad execution, but the conservation may have been this:
A: We should hurt them on Iraq
B: We can´t, they are building schools there
A: But they did mess up in AbuGhraib
B: The electorate doesn´t care about it
A: But it will get even worse there
B: It will not, those are American troops there. Our troops never fail. It will get better over time and we would loose if we punch them on this.
US hybris isn´t a republican illness. “We are better” is implanted in school into everyone.

Posted by: b | Aug 26 2004 21:01 utc | 13

@b
You should apologise to Nemo for your post on the last OT thread.
This is a free forum and to critise other posters for posting for what is, in effect, good truthful material that the mainstream media whores don’t do, is disengenious.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Aug 26 2004 21:43 utc | 14

@CP
Sorry if this was misunderstood. I asked to cut it back just a little bit in the number of comments – not in content. Maybe that was wrong – sorry.

Posted by: b | Aug 26 2004 21:56 utc | 15

It’s a horse-race, no? The winner gets to fly around in Air Force One–a fact I frequently overlook. Yes, the President gets to fly around in a great big Air Force jet for four years. A cool trip! It’s really something to run for, and run really hard, wouldn’t you say? (This isn’t exactly OT: I’m trying to size up Kerry and Bush as highly motivated racehorses. Which of the two wants to fly around on Air Force One more than the other?)
Can anyone tell me who owns Air Force One? Is it the Air Force? And who provides its fuel and maintenance? I’m not so interested in our end of the food-chain as in the vendors putting stuff straight on the plane. Of one thing I’m absolutely sure: they make more money than the President.
Here’s a great couplet by Alexander Pope, written to be engraved on the collar of a royal dog:
I am His Majesty’s dog at Kew:
Pray tell me, Sir, whose dog are you?

Posted by: alabama | Aug 26 2004 22:39 utc | 16

I also offer a not very original point about the Swift-boat frenzy. The frenzy is certainly not about the swift-boats: if it were, the violent lies it engenders would be dealt with severely– not given license to wander all over the place. Why? What positive function, then, do the lies serve? Answer: they represent, somewhat in the manner of Aesopian fables, an answer to the question of whether our actions in Iraq are of a piece with our action in Viet Nam. If Kerry was right about Viet Nam, then our equivalent activities in Iraq are every bit as bad (the point, of course, belongs to Sy Hersh). McNeill, then, is arguing (by way of rhetorical displacement) on behalf of the neo-cons and their friends on the Christian right who can’t deal with Abu Ghraib. And this is strange, because Abu Ghraib happened, and these guys are too weak to accept it. I regard them with the same cold fury I feel for playground supervisors who are so cowardly that they have to look the other way while a schoolyard bully is beating up on his victim.

Posted by: alabama | Aug 27 2004 0:35 utc | 17

Call me naive, but is’nt dear leaders cornerstone claim to fame, the war on terrorism, spearheaded by the war in Iraq pretty much an unmitigated disaster? Could’nt Kerry, in the debate where the squirm-factor would really show, simply say point blank “Mr Bush, under your leadership, and with the complicity of legislative body that includes myself, taken that power and the good will of Americans people, in the rightful war against terrorism….And haven’t you Mr Bush taken that power and terribly abused it the occupation of Iraq? Has’nt your administration, with asperations that you, yourself have declared, failed on every count? After 16 months of American occupation in Iraq, can you, sir, show the American people and myself the success of your vision and your managment. Are not the American forces in Iraq in greater danger now than 16 months ago?Are not the Iraqi people in greater peril? And have’nt all peoples of the middle east, in fact, been drivin farther
from democracys embrace?
yadayadayada,,,,,,,,, im no speach writer but can this be so hard to do?

Posted by: anna missed | Aug 27 2004 1:27 utc | 18

@b
You should apologise to Nemo for your post on the last OT thread.
This is a free forum and to critise other posters for posting for what is, in effect, good truthful material that the mainstream media whores don’t do, is disengenious.
Posted by: Cloned Poster | August 26, 2004 05:43 PM
Most cloying words CP. Much like those the serpent spoke to Eve. Clones as I understand them genetically are genetically identical to the parent. What of your ancestry CP? Does it and you have a reflection in the mirror. I got a 10 pound note that says both don’t.
Go back to your crypt now please.
Wouldn’t want to have to waste a good cured oak stake on the likes of you.

Posted by: Dr. Van Helsing | Aug 27 2004 1:29 utc | 19

Alabama: Answer: they represent, somewhat in the manner of Aesopian fables, an answer to the question of whether our actions in Iraq are of a piece with our action in Viet Nam. If Kerry was right about Viet Nam, then our equivalent activities in Iraq are every bit as bad
And this is what continues to bother me about what is missing from the Kerry message. Ain’t nobody going to convince me to ignore it. Of course the case can be made, and has been made that a lot of political water has gone under Kerry’s bridge since 1971. He’s no longer an activist former Navy JG. He’s a seasoned professional politician, along with still being an entrenched scion of the Eastern Elite. Those are reasons One and Two for my less than happy thoughts about John Kerry. I also think he could be making lots of hay by using the parallels to Vietnam, but he’s only saluting his own “service” and defending his 1971 conscientious objection after the fact. I can’t reconcile the dichotomies… Sounds like meet the new boss, who like the older bosses appears to have a convenient amnesia.

Posted by: Kate_Storm | Aug 27 2004 1:34 utc | 20

nemo,keep posting i appreciate not
having to do all the searching work
on my own.thanks for the info you
provide.

Posted by: onzaga | Aug 27 2004 1:44 utc | 21

@Onzaga:
NEMOS one fine whirling dervish of news. We couldn’t find the stuff he finds, in a million years.
And Bernhard’s done one hell of a job creating a beautiful site.I, personally, love the rabbit stew and football scores.

Posted by: Harold Lloyd | Aug 27 2004 2:04 utc | 22

If you ever questioned how come that Germans blindly followed Hitler and his criminal politic now you have a chance to look around and you’ll be served with the answer. For example here in Australia there were some polls and the question was something to this line: “Do you believe that John Howard deliberately “mislead” (LIED) this nation about intelligence that leaded us in to the war in Iraq”. Now great amount of people said YES. Some commentators and annalists mentioned 2/3 said “yes” the others are talking about around 50%…Never mind. This is not my point. The point is that this is very serious matter THE WAR, people die and the cost goes much further in material and even immaterial sense (but this Americans are yet to acknowledge). And here is the point: of those who answered “yes, Howard deliberately lied to Australian nation to fling them in to the war” 60% SAID IT’S NOT GOING TO AFECT THEIR VOTING FOR HIM.
Now tell me where moral has gone? And the most sickening thing is that those 60% are claiming they are conservative, religious, family, patriotic bla, bla, bla…yak, yak,yak oriented persons that want us to go back in time for the sake of moral that “we” not that conservative, patriotic etc. ruined as they declare.
Polls in USA would show even more ominous picture I am sure.
Yap…And I don’t think you should find any comfort in a fact that most of those people thinking this way are Republicans. Debs is right here :” US citizens who are currently appalled by their country’s occupation of Iraq may find it easier to wear a economically and morally ‘justified’ war, especially if the president was a democrat.
Generally it’s about moral that has been ruined as such…Interestingly it’s always the case before some huge World War…Social “laws” are as merciless and relentless as Nature “lows”…We human animals are so stupid to believe that we can change it…

Posted by: vbo | Aug 27 2004 2:26 utc | 23

Someone please tell me: Did Kerry, upon his return from southeast Asia, publically oppose the war in Vietnam, or rather the atrocities carried out there?
If he explicity opposed the war, upon what grounds did he do so?
I have read that Kerry opposed the war before going to Vietnam, but have no quotes of his to this effect. If this is so, however, why on earth would someone purposely, voluntarily take part in a war with which they were at odds?

Posted by: Pat | Aug 27 2004 2:27 utc | 24

Excellent question, Pat–and you’ve reminded me of some homework I haven’t done, i.e. reading a biography of the man that’s unofficial, and that contains exact and reliable information about those years….

Posted by: alabama | Aug 27 2004 3:15 utc | 25

NEMOS one fine whirling dervish of news. We couldn’t find the stuff he finds, in a million years.
And Bernhard’s done one hell of a job creating a beautiful site.I, personally, love the rabbit stew …

Yeah exactly.
What’s going on here?
Do we have our own simulacrum of swift boat jerks trying to torpedo what is otherwise an excellent web site?
Bernhard…please run a trap on that Van Helsing creature. Kill that address from ever posting here again ( a damn shame…as the guys got some word talent).
CP and Nemo are absolutely priceless.
I can’t ever keep up with their wonderful links. And that’s a damn sweet thing.

Posted by: koreyel | Aug 27 2004 4:06 utc | 26

Could’nt Kerry, in the debate where the squirm-factor would really show, simply say point blank “Mr Bush, under your leadership, and with the complicity of legislative body that includes myself, taken that power and the good will of Americans people, in the rightful war against terrorism….And haven’t you Mr Bush taken that power and terribly abused it the occupation of Iraq?
Anna….
NO.
Kerry can’t say this.
To do so would be to implicitly acknowledge that the deaths of 1000 americans and the spending of 200 billion was all in vain.
Seriously.
The greatest similarity between Iraq and Vietnam is just this:
Just as many people still refuse to acknowledge that the Vietnam war was a horrible waste of American and Vietnamese lives…even so are many Americans now in everlasting denial about Iraq’s futility.
One of the reasons we will continue to throw good money after bad, and young lives after dead lives is so that no grieving parent may say: “You mean my boy died for nothing?”
It’s a hard hard truth for this culture to face.
Neither Kerry or Bush will ever speak an idea that approaches the true and deadly historical reality of Iraq.

Posted by: koreyel | Aug 27 2004 4:25 utc | 27

@ Koreyel
Know what you’re saying, but, it’s been his policy(GWB), of his design and execution, and it has utterly failed on every level of of his agenda. I think he(JK) must find a way. At this point,even the right, is fessing up to the failure.This is the bullet for that long awaited “strong closing”.
A comprehensive accounting of the magnitude of the above mentioned “utterly failed policy”:
current Juan Cole post down to TonyKaron link,
then to CSIC pdf download of Tony Cordesman
article . 20 some pages of pathetic truth

Posted by: anna missed | Aug 27 2004 4:53 utc | 28

anna missed: what is crystal clear when the moon of Alabama sheds its light on thee, will feel like a slap in the face to anyone who hasn’t followed the story as closely.
I think vbo pointed out the how and why.
Cognitive dissonance anyone?
Reframing the discourse is where it starts, I believe we were in this part of the maze before.

Posted by: fiumana bella | Aug 27 2004 5:24 utc | 29

@Koreyel:
Some things are more priceless than others.
You got to be discerning.
Imagine push came to shove, Nemo would be with me.
He’s just resting now, after a hard day of reporting. He’ll be back soon.
You take care. I love your fire.

Posted by: Dr. V. | Aug 27 2004 5:39 utc | 30

Anna…
There is a line I remember from a Howard Fast novel about Washinton DC.
One of the Senators says about another Senator:
“I know he is an asshole, but he is OUR asshole.”
Which is say:
The republicans know Bush is a failure but he is THEIR failure.
Mark Kleiman has a wonderful little post on this very idea.

Posted by: koreyel | Aug 27 2004 5:44 utc | 31

I’ve just had a sadistic thought of the kind that we tend to suppress because, well, it’s perverse….And it’s this: to the world at large the name “Bush” is rapidly becoming equivalent to the name “Hitler”. Forever defamed are those who carry this name, most especially the Murderer-in-Chief’s father, his mother, and their various name-bearing offspring. Lucky the Bush women, who can marry out of this mess; not so lucky the Bush men, who must carry this mark of Cain right down to their last male offspring (smf as for me, I’m just very happy to know that my last name isn’t “Bush”).

Posted by: alabama | Aug 27 2004 5:56 utc | 32

@b
I think you misunderstood me: I’m not saying BushCo controls the pollsters (or at least, not all of them), just that while “T.B.” Rove’s preferred course of events would have Kerry ten points down in the polls right now, it ain’t gonna happen, because
– The last one was a squeaker, which they would have lost but for the Supremes’ timely intervention.
– They’ve pissed off a bunch of people in the interim.
Since Plan A looks less and less achievable, Plan B would be as I described it in my previous post:
With the regime’s appalling record, the best the Repubs can hope for is to retain that solid minority of marching morons, which with the Nader voters out of the game puts them within the MOE of running even with Kerry.
So it’s all slime all the time, to keep the flying monkey media occupied and drive up Kerry’s negatives. The media cooperate for all the usual reasons, plus the fun of a close race (which, not coincidentally, ups the ratings for their campaign coverage and increases the ad time bought by both parties).
Keep the uncertainty high, and it’s easier both to finagle and pass off an “upset” victory (after which our giggling pundits will sagely nod their heads and invoke that famous picture of Harry Truman).
The scary thing is that if the Cloistered Emperor really starts to slide in the polls, they might decide to give up trying for a semblance of legitimacy and go for Plan C.
@koreyel
What you said.

Posted by: prof fate | Aug 27 2004 6:03 utc | 33

@Anna Mist:
Tony Cordesman has been hot about it since July 2003. I’ll check it out tomorrow.
It’ll be sad reading.I can’t believe the incompetence of these fuck-ups.
Thanks for the cite.

Posted by: Harold Lloyd | Aug 27 2004 6:06 utc | 34

prof fate: Plan C? To contest the results, before an ever-friendly court, on the grounds that they were tainted by climate of the 527s?

Posted by: alabama | Aug 27 2004 6:10 utc | 35

Only slightly OT and worth reading.
It’s time to bring Najaf back home – Americans have one last chance to show their opposition to this war by Naomi Klein

Posted by: Fran | Aug 27 2004 6:26 utc | 36

“One of the reasons we will continue to throw good money after bad, and young lives after dead lives is so that no grieving parent may say: ‘You mean my boy died for nothing?'”
Soldiers enlist, and obtain commissions, for many, many reasons. Whatever benefits for themselves they seek from military service – whatever they hope to do and accomplish – they agree to fight our wars in return. (For some, this is itself the primary or sole motivation.) Who’s to say they do it – or did it – for nothing? They themselves must speak.

Posted by: Pat | Aug 27 2004 6:49 utc | 37

argument reduced 1 more time: John Kerry pick up that steaming, sordid, suitcase full of Vietnam shit, walk over and whop George Bush upside the head with it.
@fiumana bella
I dont think George Bush holds a candle to Hitler, he could actually win a war (and I think this might be what Pat has been saying) Bentio Mussolini would probably compare more favorably, although Bush would still be the wanna-be.
Kerry, obviously would not stop the slide, but, with extensive investigations into the whole Bush disaster, and I mean an extensive probe into every freaking piece of paper generated by these morons, could, maybe, put the skids on for awhile. And that is worth something.

Posted by: anna missed | Aug 27 2004 6:59 utc | 38

“You should apologise to Nemo for your post on the last OT thread. This is a free forum”
Someone doesn’t seem to know much about the net. There’s nothing like a free forum online, unless you are the owner and admin. In this case, Bernhard runs the house, so ultimately he’s the Boss here around.
vbo: well, 2 centuries of applied democracy tends to show that most people are too stupid to be allowed to vote or even have genuine individual rights, so it doesn’t surprise me that the current democratic systems tend to produce crap in the long run. The only advantage is that, compared to other political systems, it usually takes longer to produce really big crap.
Plan C: well, that’s BushCo staging another coup. Think major attack in Nov or Dec, followed by martial law, elections results cancelled, and the ensuing fun.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Aug 27 2004 7:56 utc | 39

From Daily Kos:
2004 Iraq deaths now exceed 2003 deaths
by Tom Schaller
Thu Aug 26th, 2004 at 20:36:29 GMT
It happened this week almost without notice: The number of Americans killed in Iraq during 2004 now exceeds the number killed in 2003.
More remarkably, the 488 killed thus far this year died in just 239 days (2.04 daily average), while the 482 killed last year died during fully 287 days (1.68 daily average), which means that not only has 2004 been bloodier than 2003 in absolute terms, but in relative terms as well.

Posted by: Pat | Aug 27 2004 7:59 utc | 40

@Pat
Do you think the old Nixonian bereavement rubric “peace with honor” will will suffice this time around?
nite moon

Posted by: anna missed | Aug 27 2004 8:29 utc | 41

All quotes:
Back in October 2002, when Senator Kerry voted to grant President Bush a blank check to make war, he tried to scare the American public into thinking that such an invasion was essential to the defense of the United States. Despite a lack of credible evidence, Kerry categorically declared that Iraq has chemical and biological weapons and even claimed that most elements of Iraqs chemical and biological weapons programs were larger and more advanced than they were before the Gulf War. Furthermore, Kerry asserted that Iraq was attempting to develop nuclear weapons, backing up this accusation by claiming that all U.S. intelligence experts agree with such an assessment. He also alleged that Iraq is developing unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) capable of delivering chemical and biological warfare agents, which could threaten Iraqs neighbors as well as American forces in the Persian Gulf. (…) When President Bush actually launched the invasion soon afterwards, Senator Kerry praised him, co-sponsoring a Senate resolution in which he declared that the invasion was lawful and fully authorized by the Congress and that he commends and supports the efforts and leadership of the President . . . in the conflict with Iraq. (…) Kerry claimed that such multilateralism advocated by Dean cedes our security and presidential responsibility to defend America to someone else since it would permit a veto over when American can or cannot act. Dean’s call for the United States to work in broad coalitions, insisted Kerry, is little more that a pretext for doing nothing.
CommonDreams
KERRY: Mr. President, when I vote to give the president of the United States the authority to use force, if necessary, to disarm Saddam Hussein; because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a threat and a grave threat to our security and that of our allies in the Persian Gulf region, I will vote, because I believe it is the best way to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. (Oct. 9, 2002 speech.)
DemocracyNow
Q: Under what future conditions would you support a pre-emptive military strike against another nation without wide international approval?
KERRY: Only when the US is so threatened that it is required for the survival of our country or for the accomplishment of some extraordinary humanitarian goal. (Jan 2004.)
OnTheIssues

Posted by: Blackie | Aug 27 2004 12:01 utc | 42

Pat @ 10:27 p.m.
“Someone please tell me: Did Kerry, upon his return from southeast Asia, publically oppose the war in Vietnam, or rather the atrocities carried out there?”
I just found the following:
What Kerry Did – and Didn’t – Say in 1971

Posted by: beq | Aug 27 2004 13:03 utc | 43

John Kerry Testimony to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on April 22, 1971.

Posted by: beq | Aug 27 2004 13:41 utc | 44

The great cite BEQ presented indicates to me that Kerry opposed both the war and the atrocites. It is no great contradiction in my mind for an individual to support something, get there, see whats really going on, and denounce it when you’re “retired”. Happens all the time in civilian occupations and government.It’s similar to whistle blowing.
Finally, I think it took real guts for Kerry to take that stand, with the likes of Nixon and Agnew running the show.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 27 2004 13:58 utc | 45

Quote (J.Kerry):
“someone has to give up his life so that the United Status doesn’t have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can’t say that we have made a mistake.”
***
Oh my God…history is useless and cynicism and irony is just painful…this man even today being a candidate for presidency do put him self cowardly in a same situation he was disgusted with 33 years ago…

Posted by: vbo | Aug 27 2004 14:23 utc | 46

Regarding Beq’s Kerry links…
That’s explosive stuff.
One can only imagine how Kerry’s testimony must have blown right-wing heads right off their reptillian brain stems.
I’d love to see the editorials and op-ed letters that responded to that testimony.
The hate for Kerry must have been incandescent.
Eerily, Kerry’s thougths on Vietnam have been replicated by posters here and at the Whiskeybar in regards to Iraq.
Every sentiment I have ever expressed on Iraq, Kerry expressed before me on Vietnam.
That’s stunning.
For example, once I posted a thought experiment on Iraq in an attempt to demonstrate the war’s racist nature.
Here is Kerry implying the very same thing:
We fought using weapons against “oriental human beings,” with quotation marks around that. We fought using weapons against those people which I do not believe this country would dream of using were we fighting in the European theater or let us say a non-third-world people theater
Or check this out–
What Kerry said then:
“…because we are probably angriest about all that we were told about Vietnam and about the mystical war against communism.”
Revised:
“…because we are probably angriest about all that we were told about Iraq and about the mystical war against terrorism.”
Ah…
The mystical war against __________.
That was brilliantly correct then, it is brilliantly correct today.

Posted by: koreyel | Aug 27 2004 14:38 utc | 47

Why, oh why, can’t this Kerry re-emerge? So sad.

Posted by: beq | Aug 27 2004 14:44 utc | 48

@VBO:
The way I read that quote you quote, Kerry was refering to the Nixon administration’s attitude.
Kerry’s attitude was the exact opposite, I think, and was very well expressed by him all the way through the testimony..

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 27 2004 14:59 utc | 49

Quote:
“Why, oh why, can’t this Kerry re-emerge? So sad.”
***
I was so hopeful at the beginning hearing about this testimony and not knowing what Kerry stands for today and who he is actually…
And am so depressed since I found out…
It should’ve been obvious there is no place for great hope when Kerry was officially backed by corrupted “corporate” top of Democrats while they pushed Dean a side…

Posted by: vbo | Aug 27 2004 15:09 utc | 50

As Koreyel suggests, just replace the word “communism” with the word “terrorism”:

“We are asking Americans to think about that because how do you ask a man to be the last man to dies in Vietnam? How do ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake? But we are trying to do that, and we are doing it with thousands of rationalizations, and if you read carefully the President’s last speech to the people of this country, you can see that he says, and says clearly:
But the issue, gentlemen, the issue is communism, and the question is whether or not we will leave that country to the communists or whether or not we will try to give it hope to be a free people.
But the point is they are not a free people now under us. They are not a free people, and we cannot fight communism all over the world, and I think we should have learned that lesson by now.

Posted by: beq | Aug 27 2004 15:12 utc | 51

My guess is — or rather my hope is — that Kerry is saving his anti-war past as a card to use in October when the electorate is paying attention.
One small sign of this was embedded in his speech in Philadelphia a couple of days ago, in which he said he was proud of his anti-war stance in 1971, was proud of the fact that he took an unpopular stand when it counted.
I think we’re going to be hearing more about Kerry as the man who stood up to power (and Nixon) in the month before the election. My guess is the campaign wanted to emphasize FIRST his service to the country (medals, hero, etc.) as the foundation of his personal story so that his anti-war activities could be framed as a hero coming home to tell the truth.
At least that’s the way I would run the campaign, but only time will tell if I’m right.

Posted by: SusanG | Aug 27 2004 15:17 utc | 52

Makes good sense to me; I hope you’re right, SusanG. Think we can get him on the phone?

Posted by: beq | Aug 27 2004 15:23 utc | 53

Here is a entire quote :
“Each day to facilitate the process by which the United States washes her hands of Vietnam someone has to give up his life so that the United Status doesn’t have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can’t say that we have made a mistake. Someone has to die so that President Nixon won’t be, and these are his words, “the first president to lose a war.”
***
Of course “Kerry was refering to the Nixon administration’s attitude.” And of course “Kerry’s attitude was the exact opposite, I think, and was very well expressed by him all the way through the testimony..”
My intention with my comment was to say that what ever for, he rightly and courageously accused Nixon (and others) in 1971 he is ashamed now to acknowledge as a current situation truth and is even prepared to come in to the Nixon’s shoes…

Posted by: vbo | Aug 27 2004 15:25 utc | 54

“We wish that a merciful God could wipe away our own memories of that service as easily as this administration has wiped their memories of us. But all that they have done and all that they can do by this denial is to make more clear than ever our own determination to undertake one last mission, to search out and destroy the last vestige of this barbarous war, to pacify our own hearts, to conquer the hate and the fear that have driven this country these last 10 years and more and so when, in 30 years from now, our brothers go down the street without a leg, without an arm or a face, and small boys ask why, we will be able to say “Vietnam” and not mean a desert, not a filthy obscene memory but mean instead the place where America finally turned and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning.”

Posted by: beq | Aug 27 2004 15:29 utc | 55

@CJ, point taken. Where’s Nemo?
All, this Kerry testimony is really powerful stuff. If he starts to use this line as SusanG hopes………….. he’s a shoe-in.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Aug 27 2004 15:47 utc | 56

May 3, 2003. Kerry : “I said at the time I would have preferred if we had given diplomacy a greater opportunity. But I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein. And when the president made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm [Saddam].”
The Iraq invasion was delayed from September (at least..) to March principally through other countries’ obstruction, but also by Iraq’s compliance (e.g. permitting return of inspectors which, in theory, should have kept Iraq safe for 60 days for assessment and 6 months for the inspections.) Everyone worked together to put it off, again, and again. Turkey was the last to poke spokes into the wheels, delaying the invasion yet once more by what? -a week or more, I no longer remember. Even Blair tried to delay. The aim was to try and get into the summer, in which case, it was hoped, the US military would not move (heat) and the whole affair would be put off until the next October or so.
Kerry could not have overcome those obstructions. France, China, Russia (and Germany) stood very firm. Iraq, too, would not have behaved differently. It was clear that the US (with the UK playing a shifting role) was up against the rest of the world (leaving out Micronesia, Australia..). The US could back down; or invade unilaterally, pre-emptively and illegally. Plans had been formed a long time ago; intentions had been stated publicly, many times.
Why would Kerry have given more time to ‘diplomatic processes’? To what end, with what result? The rest of the world (…) was opposed to an invasion and nothing would have changed that. In fact, opposition stiffened as time went on (e.g. public pressure; e.g. Chile appalled at spying, etc.) Does Kerry mean that the inspections would have just gone on and on? And that, finally, it would have been determined that Iraq was no threat, and that thus there was no reason to invade?
It would be nice to think so. (Despite the fact that he has said he approves of the invasion.) However — All of Kerry’s discourse is based on his stated or implicit belief in the existence of Iraq WMD prior to some very recent time. Nowhere is it ever suggested that he had doubts about aluminum tubes, yellow cake from Niger (etc.) (afaik. ?.) Many reports (and intelligence) in the 5 years prior to the invasion showed that Iraq had no WMD. What more proof could have been forthcoming? Kerry is stuck with his past adherence to the whole process of the build-up to war (sham WMD, ‘threats’ to make Saddam ‘capitulate,’ etc.) and then somehow disaproving of the result. His objections are tinny, hollow, as they hark back to the build-up / planning process itself (international alliances, plan for ‘the peace’, more diplomacy, faulty intelligence, etc.) and not the result! (And lastly, Kerry knew the WMD were sham, as did everyone except perhaps Bush.. )
I think that Kerry truthfully is very critical of Bush’s handling of this matter. What he is angry about is the fact that it was delayed so long, that the enterprise faltered, was slow, uncertain and therefore beset with difficulties and snarls; that not enough troops were sent to secure ‘the peace’; that the occupation is somewhat messy; and that the rest of the world is not participating. As he has said. However, he cannot now state his judgment of the fundamental error made, but has in the past:
From his Oct. 9, 2002 speech:
“A brutal, oppressive dictator, guilty of personally murdering and condoning murder and torture, grotesque violence against women, execution of political opponents, a war criminal who used chemical weapons against another nation and, of course, as we know, against his own people, the Kurds. He has diverted funds from the Oil-for-Food program, intended by the international community to go to his own people. He has supported and harbored terrorist groups, particularly radical Palestinian groups such as Abu Nidal, and he has given money to families of suicide murderers in Israel.”
(…)
“The events of September 11 created new understanding of the terrorist threat and the degree to which every nation is vulnerable. That understanding enabled the administration to form a broad and impressive coalition against terrorism. Had the administration tried then to capitalize on this unity of spirit to build a coalition to disarm Iraq, we would not be here in the pressing days before an election, late in this year, debating this now. The administration’s decision to engage on this issue now, rather than a year ago or earlier, and the manner in which it has engaged, has politicized and complicated the national debate and raised questions about the credibility of their case.”
Kerry would have smashed into Iraq right after 9/11 with more force than Bush, and with a large coalition. If one understands this, everything he has said recently is coherent, and flip-flopping there is none, only omission.
Kerry quotes from
Slate Bushblog IndiesforKerry

Posted by: Blackie | Aug 27 2004 16:33 utc | 57

@Blackie
Depressing……….. more of the same but worse.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Aug 27 2004 16:38 utc | 58

“So, let’s see: Bona-fide war hero turned incredibly articulate, educated, gifted Vietnam War protester and respected senator on one side, alcoholic AWOL failed-businessman born-again pampered daddy’s boy evangelical Christian on the other. Is this really the contest? Bush slugs gin and tonics like Evian while Kerry is accused of … what again? Not being incredibly heroic enough? Wow.”

There’s more.

Posted by: beq | Aug 27 2004 18:54 utc | 59

The great cite BEQ presented indicates to me that Kerry opposed both the war and the atrocites. It is no great contradiction in my mind for an individual to support something, get there, see whats really going on, and denounce it when you’re “retired”. Happens all the time in civilian occupations and government.It’s similar to whistle blowing.
Finally, I think it took real guts for Kerry to take that stand, with the likes of Nixon and Agnew running the show.
Posted by: | August 27, 2004 09:58 AM
No, it is not a contradiction for a person to support an endeavor and then, having experienced it firsthand, oppose same. One of the questions I asked above is, When did Kerry conclude that the Vietnam war was wrong? Did he support the war before obtaining his commission in the Navy? Was he in favor of it, did he agree with it, prior to his tenure in the Navy? I have read that he did not support the war prior to his time in the service. If he did not, then what was the motivation for his voluntary stint in the military?
@beq
Thank you very much for the link to Kerry’s testimony. There is quite a bit to think about.
@anna missed
I gather we are a looooong way off from any suggestion or reprise of “peace with honor.”
This “war,” as it stands, is about keeping our casualty count low and minimizing it on the other side as well. Is it possible to overstate the extraordinary sensitivity of our political leadership to criticism from the media – and in turn, the public? There is a not insignificant element of fear that plays a role, even a decisive one, in the decision-making process. It is not a fear of losing. (The waters have been sufficiently muddied regarding what constitutes winning and losing, success and failure, in major military operations that from a political standpoint these are not overriding concerns.) It is a fear of the NY Times and the WaPo. It is a fear of “international opinion.” It is a fear of the morning’s headlines and the evening’s news reels.
This fear exists side-by-side with the memory and reverence of WWII, which does its own haunting.
Makes for interesting psychology.

Posted by: Pat | Aug 27 2004 19:42 utc | 60

@Blackie:
Q: Under what future conditions would you support a pre-emptive military strike against another nation without wide international approval?
KERRY: Only when the US is so threatened that it is required for the survival of our country or for the accomplishment of some extraordinary humanitarian goal. (Jan 2004.)
The question posed is insanely idiotic. To pre-empt means to prevent that which is imminent. Do I want any of my leaders and decision-makers to be wasting time seeking “wide international approval” for pre-emption, which is both necessary and legal under international law? What kind of craven moron seeks the permission of those who are not threatened for defending those who are?
Kerry’s response is just as bad. Threatened with all-out annihilation he would act without wide international approval. Well, that’s a fuckin’ relief. Also, he would carry out non-pre-approved, pre-emptive operations “for the accomplishment of some extraordinary humanitarian goal.” Nevermind that extraordinary humanitarian goals are what the international community loves, and would be quite unlikely to reject under any circumstances. What about anything and everything between these two instances Kerry offers? What about an imminent danger that does not threaten the very survival of our country? Al Qaeda certainly isn’t an existential threat. We can be neither overthrown nor wiped out by them. So we still would require the approval of the Belgians, the French, the Chinese, and whomever else to take pre-emptive action in such a case?
This kind of sad, frightening, confused nonsense is unique to neither this interviewer nor to Kerry. It’s epidemic.

Posted by: Pat | Aug 27 2004 23:07 utc | 61

Pat: When did Kerry conclude that the Vietnam war was wrong? Did he support the war before obtaining his commission in the Navy? Was he in favor of it, did he agree with it, prior to his tenure in the Navy? I have read that he did not support the war prior to his time in the service. If he did not, then what was the motivation for his voluntary stint in the military?
Credential for political career? He wouldn’t be the first or last…

Posted by: eb | Aug 28 2004 2:31 utc | 62

Credential for political career? He wouldn’t be the first or last…
Posted by: eb | August 27, 2004 10:31 PM
Willingness to take part in a war one opposes, for the purpose of political credentialing, is not an admirable – but rather a dangerous – trait.

Posted by: Pat | Aug 28 2004 5:06 utc | 63