Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 9, 2004
Light Sweet Depression

Updated – (Chalabi) at end of post

Light Sweet Crude Oil was slightly below $44 per barrel this morning. There is currently nearly no reserve capacity left on this planet and now this:

Iraq Stops South Oil Output After Militia Threat
BAGHDAD, Iraq (Reuters) Mon Aug 9, 2004 12:48 PM ET – Iraq stopped oil production from its southern oil fields Monday after a Shi’ite Muslim uprising led by radical cleric Moqtada al-Sadr spread to the oil sector for the first time since the late-June handover of power to Iraqi authorities.

An Iraqi oil official said militiamen from Sadr’s Mehdi Army threatened to sabotage operations by the state Southern Oil Company, based in Basra city.

“Pumping from the southern oil fields to storage tanks at Basra was stopped today after threats made by Al-Sadr,” the official told Reuters. “It will remain stopped until the threat is over.”

Iraq’s southern fields have been supplying the Gulf Basra terminal with about 1.9 million barrels a day. Exports from Iraq’s northern oil fields have operated only sporadically since the U.S. occupation last year and remain closed after a series of attacks on the main northern export pipeline from the Kirkuk fields.

Now it will be proven by Al Sadr and others that oil is the most effective weapon against the US. Others will recognize this too (Venezuelan recall referendum?). Can anyone expect this threat to end anytime soon?

What may follow now economically? Here are my € 0.02:
– Light Sweet Crude Oil: (far) above $50/bl
– Fed: will not hike rates tomorrow
– Treasuries: will rally
– Stocks: will fall
– US economy: will grind to a halt
– Prices: will rise fast
– US$: down (maybe after a short rally)
– Worst case: stagnation and inflation, given some time developing into hyperinflation, loss of confidence in the US$, US economy crashing into a deflationary depression, others follow.

CHOAM Economic Analysis of Materiel Flow Patterns says:

Melange is the financial crux of CHOAM activities. Without this spice, Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers could not perform feats of observation and human control, Guild Navigators could not see safe pathways across space, and billions of Imerial citizens would die of addictive withdrawal. Any simpleton knows that such dependence upon a single commodity leads to abuse. We are all at risk.

The Preacher at Arrakeen minds

This is the fallacy of power: ultimately it is effective only in an absolute, a limited universe. But the basic lesson of our relativistic universe is that things change. Any power must always meet a greater power.

Update – 3:58 PM

The stop of the Iraqi oil flowing to Basra seems to have a more sinister background than threats by Al Sadr. As Nemo pointed out in the last open thread, Chalabi is pulling the strings.

When NeoCon darling Achmed Chalabi came back to Iraq after the invasion, a gang of US trained thugs guarded him. Later these men were “integrated” into the security forces of ERINYS, the British company that has the contract to guard all Iraqi oil installations. ERINYS is connected with Chalabis INC organization and reportedly Chalabi was paid $2 million for his helpful recommendations on the contract. Chalabis nephew Salem was hired as a lawyer by ERINYS as were thousands of foreign “security trainer” mercenaries.

Yesterday the CIA asset Prime Minister Iyad Allawi issued arrest warrants for NeoCon asset Chalabi and for his nephew. Today the Flow Of Spice was stopped because militiamen from Sadr’s Mehdi Army threatened to sabotage operations by the state Southern Oil Company.

Maybe the guards of the Iraqi oil assets could step up the security again and hinder sabotage, if … and if … and if… .

Wolfowitz and Negroponte must be negotiating at each others throat by now, while Secretary John Snow prepares to distribute Prozac.

Comments

Bernhard,
See my 12.54 on Not sealed fine twisted cord II – Muqtada al-Sadr isn’t the only one who knows that threats to oil production can bring pressure to bear on interested parties.

Posted by: Nemo | Aug 9 2004 18:03 utc | 1

Oh boy this is likely to get *very* entertaining fast.
I wonder what kind of panic an attack on the Saudi oil infrastructure would cause? Even if the damage was minor and didn’t effect capacity I suspect it would still panic the markets.
Unfortunately as I am currently looking for work I’m hoping high oil prices don’t kill the US economy for a while.

Posted by: Chris Stefan | Aug 9 2004 19:07 utc | 2

Nemo………..BBC interviewed the younger Chalabi on radio this morning……… excellent liar.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Aug 9 2004 19:34 utc | 3

Bernhard
It’s strange, I was thinking about sending you a post on very similar lines. One important element to add is that the dollar will fall as the oil prices rise, which will in turn increase the oil price rise (as producers will expect to keep their purchasing power in euros).
You mention the interest rate decision by the Fed tomorrow. I think that either way the market will tank:
– it increases them, as was expected until recently. People will worry about the combination of higher rates and higher oil prices on US growth
– it keeps them unchanged. This will be interpreted as the official announcement that growth is dead, and will be seen as a very gloomy portent (inflation from oil prices and little growth).
Either way, people are going to focus again on all these nasty numbers: the (unsustainable) twin deficits, the terrible overall number of jobs, the unsustainable indebtedness levels of households, the lack of domestic savings…
And I further predict that Europe will live through the US economic crisis much better than everybody expects. It will be in large part protected from oil price increases thanks to the euro, and it has no big desequilibriums to correct (whether on the trade, debt or deficit side)

Posted by: Jérôme | Aug 9 2004 19:35 utc | 4

And Jerome, we Europeans have so much taxes loaded on petrol prices that we have flexibility.
As Nemo pointed out on the last OT thread, is the Civil War Allawi v Chalabi?

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Aug 9 2004 19:45 utc | 5

Recovery interrupted…

Posted by: Nemo | Aug 9 2004 19:52 utc | 6

Panic in the streets…
Oil prices close in record territory near $45 a barrel
”…$100 oil a possibility…”

Posted by: Nemo | Aug 9 2004 19:58 utc | 7

Sell SUVS!!!
World oil prices close at all-time highs as Iraqi oilfields halt pumping
And it ain’t over yet…

Posted by: Nemo | Aug 9 2004 20:11 utc | 8

@Jérôme re US$
The US$ might rise when the carry trades unwind, because hedge funds etc will need US$ to unwind their trades and pay their debts. The “little man” carry trade of buying a house on a 110% Adjusted Rate Mortgage will also require “cash” money to unwind. The dollar might be scarce for a while before dropping like a stone.
Richard Russel came up with this idea a month ago (shortly before his 80th birthday).

Posted by: b | Aug 9 2004 20:29 utc | 9

A paint stroke from Nemo’s 3:58 link that just doesn’t paint quite broadly enough:
The Russian company is “just indicative of the instability of the oil market,” he said. “Like a child finding out about the reality of Santa Claus — all the hope and dream of free, cheap and easy oil from that region now seem to be dashed,” he said.
Hey!
It’s been Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy for industrial humanity for over a hundred years now.
Remember how Buckminster Fuller used to say that crude oil buried in the Earth’s crust was akin to the sustaining yolk of an egg?
And that it behooved mankind to grow up and crack open the egg and learn to fly on his own? Without all that freebie oil?
Are we there yet?
Not quite…but I can feel the electricity of the moment’s approach.
I am rooting for $100 dollars a barrel.
Does that make me a traitor?
Good.
Then $200 dollars a barrel. Better lock me up…I am over here cheering and laughing on my bicycle.
Hell…I knew the truth of the matter since I was 16. And I never caved in my values to the automobiling culture. Thirty years of automobile ads telling me I needed this car or that tank to be sexy or adventurous. Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.
And still the ads run. SUVs and Trucks tearing up the countryside and saying BUY ME BUY ME BUY ME.
And me saying: Fuck you Fuck you Fuck you. Drop dead.
So yeah…
I’d say we are getting nearer and nearer to Fuller’s vision…or should I say: warmer and warmer to the reality of the cost of these SUV lifestyles.
Nearer and nearer to having to use our creativity to solve the primary energy accounting problem on spaceship earth.
The time for getting something for nothing is almost over humanity.
And I am not going to weep for your discomfort. The time is long past for you to grow up. Time to realize that your fast food and your fast cars and your fast politics has set you on the fast track to extinction.
God may be alive…but Santa Claus is moribund…
And that’s a good thing. It is time to leave your childhood behind humanity.

Posted by: koreyel | Aug 9 2004 20:35 utc | 10

@koreyel
yes, sadly yes.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Aug 9 2004 20:43 utc | 11

@ koreyel
‘Arab extremists’ are not totally cruel to cosseted Westerners. Osama has always maintained that a figure of $140 would be just, although the figure may have to be adjusted upwards slightly to take account of global inflation since he posited the figure.
Of course he intends the increased revenue to be put to use for the greater public good, not squandered on palaces, the accumulation of ‘royal’ possessions, drugs, whores and the other things the Sauds currently spend oil revenue on.
Mind you, he is considered in some quarters to be a bit of a radical…

Posted by: Nemo | Aug 9 2004 21:10 utc | 12

Bernhard and Jerome–
Isn’t this a conclusion that we couldn’t quite bring ourselves to accept just scant a few weeks ago, especially the fall of the US$ and the rise of the Euro, not necessarily in purely monetary terms, but rather in terms of the Oil Standard…
Clearly, if Bernhard’s supposition is correct, it is time to cue Jim Morrison because…..’This is the End’….
Good job Rovians! Who would have thought that your exploitive, and explosive, expediency could destroy the American Empire, both inside and out, in less than one term.
I know I’m asking for hit here, but….could this actually be the turning point that many of the world’s oppressed peoples will look back at with fondness in a generation?

Posted by: RossK | Aug 9 2004 21:44 utc | 13

@Nemo
Whores is an apt word.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Aug 9 2004 21:46 utc | 14

We can all agree here that higher oil prices would be necessary to reflect the fact that it is not a renewable good. The question is: who should get the money? Or maybe – what should it be used for? or again – what kind of price would that be?
The price can be set in several ways:
– the price of real sustainable alternatives. Electric cars, with electricity generated from renewable sources, is already possible with today’s technology, so that sets a cap (which makes me not believe in doomsday scenarios. we CAN live with energy costing 10 times what it costs now – easily). Most other uses for oil have substitutes, even if significantly costlier.
– if we decide to use the oil, as it’s available, but focus on finding the cheapest substitute in the (long) meantime, the disruption to our economies will be less. However, the oil price must be increased to discourage its use, and massive public investment put intoà developing the alternatives (and one should finance the other, obviously).
where does that leave the oil producing countries? If the oil “rent” is to be used to finance future sources, they should not capture it. Is that likely, Is that possible?
This major potential source of conflict is the single biggest argument to increase taxes now in consuming countries, so that regular and predictable price increases for consumers do not create too much pain in the economy. If prices are increased because of supply and demand only, it will not finance alternatives (these will develop as they become more competitive, but it will take more time), and it will certainly be more brutal and unpredictable, with nastier effects on the economy. Better increase them now and use the funds for investment rather than for consumption in producing countries. But who will have the farsightedness to (i) impose these taxes and (ii) put them to the right use. Europe has managed (i) once, but not enough of (ii) (although Europe’s renewable energy efforts are reasonably serious). The USA is totally hopeless on (i).
But remember, we went through a multiplication by 4 of oil prices in 73-74 and then again in 78-79 and it was not the end of the world. It was messy, but oil consumption WAS reduced and solutions were found and we are certainly not poorer today than we are then. We need the same again. Let’s do it on our terms and not on the terms of terrorists, corrupt saudis or scheming russians.

Posted by: Jérôme | Aug 9 2004 22:02 utc | 15

Jerome–
I understand perfectly.
In my sloppy way, both gramatically and thematically, I’m only suggesting that This is the End of…
….American Economic Hegemony.

Posted by: RossK | Aug 9 2004 22:08 utc | 16

BTW, the current headline on the website of Le Monde is “Inquiétude sur l’extinction des réserves de pétrole” (Worries about the end of oil reserves)
See the about Peak Oil.
Get ready for 80$/b oil (and remember that this will still make it cheaper in real terms than in 1980, so get ready for 150$/b oil).
The earliest consequences will come, of course, when all the oil producing countries start buying weapons again…

Posted by: Jérôme | Aug 9 2004 22:14 utc | 17

Sorry, messed up a link.
BTW, the current headline on the website of Le Monde is “Inquiétude sur l’extinction des réserves de pétrole” (Worries about the end of oil reserves)
See the the article (in French) about Peak Oil.
Get ready for 80$/b oil (and remember that this will still make it cheaper in real terms than in 1980, so get ready for 150$/b oil).
The earliest consequences will come, of course, when all the oil producing countries start buying weapons again…

Posted by: Jérôme | Aug 9 2004 22:14 utc | 18

@Jerome:
What happening with coal gassification, liquification: at what price per barrrel of light crude do these technologies kick in heavily, if at all.
I know, maybe the subject for a longer post.

Posted by: FLASHHARRY | Aug 9 2004 22:23 utc | 19

Jérôme, it’s always a pleasure to read your rational (which country you said you come from?) and optimistic analyses and suggestions. However, I am not so sure that a rational discourse will do much to improve the situation, simply for the fact that there are the usual irrational factors to be reckoned with, e.g. mentalities, cultural assumptions, greed etc. For instance, cheap mobility seems to be ingrained not only in the psyche of the average US-citizen. But the US is absolutely addicted to cheap energy and will, it seems, do almost anything to keep its insane rate of consumption up. It is not that they couldn’t change, I think they don’t want to change – with a preemptive excuse to all the environmentally aware US-Americans reading this. Or take the Germans: they are in love with their cars. True, they have learned to look for their mileage, but on the whole a car is simply what you have. I sold my car a few years ago, and some of my colleagues (who really do not need a car either) couldn’t believe it. People do all sorts of things, spend an insane amount of money, support suicidal politics, just to be able to get to places where they don’t really want to be.
And what about kerosene? It’s still far too cheap, for all I know. Why is it not more expensive? What have we seen here in Europe for the last five years or so? The boom of cheap airlines that take you anywhere at incredibly low costs – preferably to places people never thought they would want to go to. And we all know that too much air traffic, esp. the volumes that are being forecast, will be damaging to the atmosphere.
I think for the foreseeable future, people will probably vote for the politicians who tell them the most comfortable lies. Especially with economic problems that threaten their jobs and lifestyle, people IMHO treat an environmental conscience as a luxury problem. And that applies to the high-tech Western societies. Most of the developing countries seem to be happy to trash their lands for a modest increase in living standards. I am beginning to sound apocalyptic here, which is really not my position. My point is, I think, that one should never underestimate mankind’s capacity for doing harm to itself.

Posted by: teuton | Aug 9 2004 22:29 utc | 20

i want to offer up some excerpts from chapter two of sun tzu which i find very pertinent to the US involvement in iraq:

————————-
When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men’s weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength.
Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain.
Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue.

Poverty of the State exchequer causes an army to be maintained by contributions from a distance. Contributing to maintain an army at a distance causes the people to be impoverished.

On the other hand, the proximity of an army causes prices to go up; and high prices cause the people’s substance to be drained away.
When their substance is drained away, the peasantry will be afflicted by heavy exactions.
With this loss of substance and exhaustion of strength, the homes of the people will be stripped bare, and three-tenths of their income will be dissipated; while government expenses for broken chariots, worn-out horses, breast-plates and helmets, bows and arrows, spears and shields, protective mantles, draught-oxen and heavy wagons, will amount to four-tenths of its total revenue.
Hence a wise general makes a point of foraging on the enemy. One cartload of the enemy’s provisions is equivalent to twenty of one’s own, and likewise a single PICUL of his provender is equivalent to twenty from one’s own store.
————————-

according to master tzu, the US are fucked big time. the war and its surrounding circumstances will suck the US white. the supplies to keep an army of ~150K on foot are nowhere near to be had, and it is looking rather difficult to loot all the oil without disturbances. they wouldn’t be able to follow master tzu’s advice even if they wanted. and then there is still afghanistan …
@ koreye:
i’ve already bought some land way out of any probable conflict or nuclear fallout zone. starting from zero won’t be eazy but it will be fun. and the outlook is just beautiful.

Posted by: name | Aug 9 2004 22:41 utc | 21

i want to offer up some excerpts from chapter two of sun tzu which i find very pertinent to the US involvement in iraq:

————————-
When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men’s weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength.
Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain.
Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue.

Poverty of the State exchequer causes an army to be maintained by contributions from a distance. Contributing to maintain an army at a distance causes the people to be impoverished.

On the other hand, the proximity of an army causes prices to go up; and high prices cause the people’s substance to be drained away.
When their substance is drained away, the peasantry will be afflicted by heavy exactions.
With this loss of substance and exhaustion of strength, the homes of the people will be stripped bare, and three-tenths of their income will be dissipated; while government expenses for broken chariots, worn-out horses, breast-plates and helmets, bows and arrows, spears and shields, protective mantles, draught-oxen and heavy wagons, will amount to four-tenths of its total revenue.
Hence a wise general makes a point of foraging on the enemy. One cartload of the enemy’s provisions is equivalent to twenty of one’s own, and likewise a single PICUL of his provender is equivalent to twenty from one’s own store.
————————-

according to master tzu, the US are fucked big time. the war and its surrounding circumstances will suck the US white. the supplies to keep an army of ~150K on foot are nowhere near to be had, and it is looking rather difficult to loot all the oil without disturbances. they wouldn’t be able to follow master tzu’s advice even if they wanted. and then there is still afghanistan …
@ koreye:
i’ve already bought some land way out of any probable conflict or nuclear fallout zone. starting from zero won’t be eazy but it will be fun. and the outlook is just beautiful.

Posted by: name | Aug 9 2004 22:41 utc | 22

i want to offer up some excerpts from chapter two of sun tzu which i find very pertinent to the US involvement in iraq:

————————-
When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men’s weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength.
Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain.
Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue.

Poverty of the State exchequer causes an army to be maintained by contributions from a distance. Contributing to maintain an army at a distance causes the people to be impoverished.

On the other hand, the proximity of an army causes prices to go up; and high prices cause the people’s substance to be drained away.
When their substance is drained away, the peasantry will be afflicted by heavy exactions.
With this loss of substance and exhaustion of strength, the homes of the people will be stripped bare, and three-tenths of their income will be dissipated; while government expenses for broken chariots, worn-out horses, breast-plates and helmets, bows and arrows, spears and shields, protective mantles, draught-oxen and heavy wagons, will amount to four-tenths of its total revenue.
Hence a wise general makes a point of foraging on the enemy. One cartload of the enemy’s provisions is equivalent to twenty of one’s own, and likewise a single PICUL of his provender is equivalent to twenty from one’s own store.
————————-

according to master tzu, the US are fucked big time. the war and its surrounding circumstances will suck the US white. the supplies to keep an army of ~150K on foot are nowhere near to be had, and it is looking rather difficult to loot all the oil without disturbances. they wouldn’t be able to follow master tzu’s advice even if they wanted. and then there is still afghanistan …

Posted by: name | Aug 9 2004 22:42 utc | 23

@Bernhard
sorry for the repeated posts. something stupid happened. could you please remove the two first ones ?

Posted by: name | Aug 9 2004 22:44 utc | 24

If prices for oil do go so high, I’m afraid that nations like the U.S. will push for nuclear and coal because they are already there, so to say, as far as infrastructure.
the problems with these two are already known, and they will bring ecological blowback of their own.
on the other hand, smart people who are also rich can use this opportunity to re-align some energy consumption to renewable and zero carbon forms because, as the price of oil rises, these technologies will be more attractive because they’ll be more affordable, AND they have a lot of support among better educated people who also happen to vote more in the U.S.
on the other hand, I was talking to a guy today about health care as a human right etc. This started as a talk about him wanting to be rich, because he could help a lot of people. I said, maybe people don’t want charity, don’t want to be helped. Maybe they want to be paid a decent wage, maybe they deserve to be paid enough so that someone doesn’t have to deign to shower them with charity. This veered into a discussion of other western democracies, and health care as a human right in rich nations.
He just couldn’t quite agree that health should be considered a human right, or, in other words, that people, no matter how poor, should be able to get decent health care in one of the richest nations in the world.
I asked about “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,” so important to Americans, supposedly. I asked…isn’t health care sometimes necessary for life? Are some Americans, then, more equal than others, and deserve health care, just because they were born to a rich parent, while a poor child was not?
He just wasn’t sure.
But, he thought that gas should not be taxed. I said, but the world is facing the peak of oil production…why should gas be cheap?
He said, because people need to be able to drive to work in America…that’s just the way our nation is set up.
anyway, we talked about a few other things, he made an exit after shaking my hand, like “good match,” (I felt like I should jump a net), and I thought…
so, another American who thinks that having cheap gas is more important for America than health care.
I didn’t get a chance to ask him what sick people were supposed to do when they had cheap gas but couldn’t go to work because they were ill and couldn’t afford a dr’s appt or medicine or couldn’t get into a hospital, or we too proud and ashamed to ask for “charity.”
Too many Americans are so fucked up.
It’s sad to know that his thinking (selfish, of course, punitive for people who may be totally innocent, like poor children, but totally focused on the ease of his life and the idea that money is the supreme value…..it’s just really, really fucked up.

Posted by: fauxreal | Aug 9 2004 23:15 utc | 25

I read a Guardian (I think) article earlier today about instability in Nigeria and a very gloomy outlook for stability of oil production there. Just to add another gloomy note to the outlook.
I am disappointed that Kerry made a major energy policy statement the other day and said nothing about increasing taxes on gasoline. This is obviously a necessary part of the equation for energy security, and as noted upthread, better to do it gradually and rationally when you can direct the proceeds to worthwhile ends.

Posted by: maxcrat | Aug 10 2004 0:53 utc | 26

I have to disagree with jerome and all other posits that we have hit peak oil, again.
But, we must look for alternatives such as wind power, solar etc. Further, if you have a small creek or river by you house micro-hydro can do wonders.
However, there is still to much oil for peak oil. 25% of a current barrel is pure speculation because of Iraq, Nigeria, Venezuala, and Russia.
The Bush admin and UN are making noise about Sudan and how that situation must calm down. This is purely to get at their southern oil fields. If Bushie and the neo-cons are gone, I will lay money in less than two years oil will hit $25 a barrel. Sorry everyone, I don’t by the peak oil theory “yet.”
There is a great article on Common Dreams by Tom Englehardt called “Suprise.” It give different scenarios for any suprises Bushie and Rove may pull on Kerry. Also, in the article is a link to a Juan Cole posting about Cheney blaming Dems for high oil prices.
Back to peak oil, there is just way to much info out on the internet that can be tapped to show world oil reserves. It’s out there, it’s just having stability in the countries that have the oil in order to get it.

Posted by: jdp | Aug 10 2004 1:14 utc | 27

@jdp–
Ya, but isn’t stability, at least in the current geopolitical world, just another name for docile client states?
And while the US’s current high-speed run on the Instability Freeway may have an off-ramp out in the distance, it is very unlikely that she will be able to pull the lever on a working emergency brake once she gets there.
In other words, somebody else, somebody who has taken control of the economic levers, is going to have to reassert control. And given recent history I’m not so sure that is actually a bad thing.

Posted by: RossK | Aug 10 2004 2:54 utc | 28

Rossk,
The Rovians have no credibility when it comes to stability. They have made the world unsafe. they want client states by force rather than mutual benefit. A new admin can talk prices back down on oil because the Russia, Caucus states, Saudis and others move their economy on pumping oil to cash rich countries. That is the one factor that could blow up. With trillions of US debt, the US will have to default soon and plunge the US and possibly the world economy into depression. I disagree with Jerome that Europe can weather the storm because of the Euro. But I do believe Europe will come out the other side in better shape than the US. The Euro will become the dominant currency.
This whole ordeal would cause a crash in oil comsumption, thus a crash in prices. We still consume 25% of the world oil and a ten percent (US) slack in demand would cause a glut.
But that is another scenario from peak oil. I still believe if stability can be brought to the middle east and other spots, world oil would crash to $25. If Iraq stabilizes you could see oil in the teens. Remember, China does not import much oil. They produce 90-95% of what they use. Other countries just don’t consume like the US.
Anyway, good night.

Posted by: jdp | Aug 10 2004 3:26 utc | 29

Quote:
The question is: who should get the money?
***
Yeah…that’s a good question. I slowly am coming to an understanding that all of this may be intentional. If Bush & Co have a good arrangement (and they definitely had a good one) with Saudis (and now Iraqis and others) and if it is as good as Australian arrangement with East Timor (82 % to us and 12% to Timorese) because world is never near to become independent of oil you may work it out who are profiteering the most from this prices of oil. Oh I remember Milosevic & his gang just LOVED sanctions. It was us, people who had to pay 3 DM per liter and make them stinky rich.
And if “the end of reserves” is half true you can bet they’ll do anything to grab this last piece of cake.
On the other hand Russians are waiting for their “5 minutes” …I am kind of scared they will not see it cause all this “movement” of USA military is coming close to their borders. Surrounding (encircling) them. Only time will tell. To survivors, haha.

Posted by: vbo | Aug 10 2004 4:20 utc | 30

Thanks jdp, and thanks all.
It’s fun to get back into the rhythm of seeing interactive discussions build on each thread again.
And Bernhard et al., you all have managed to take a bite of out of my Jones for no-longer daily Billmon posts because of the high quality of what’s being put up here.
This does not mean I don’t enjoy what’s going on over at the Annex also. It’s just different (more free-wheeling); yang to the yin over here.

Posted by: RossK | Aug 10 2004 5:05 utc | 31

@jpd – “China does not import much oil. They produce 90-95% of what they use.”
Thats more like 60%, falling rapidly. They may import “only” 6% of world production, but with their growth rate that will be 10% in very few years.
Link
China is the world’s second largest consumer of primary commercial energy, accounting for 12% of the global total. Its demand in 2003 was equivalent to that of Japan, South Korea, India and Indonesia combined, or some 80% of the EU-15 states, and it increased by 14% in that year. In 2002 China overtook Japan to become the second largest consumer of oil. China ‘s demand for oil rose by a further 11% in 2003, when it accounted for 7.5% of global oil consumption. The same year oil imports rose nearly 30% to 128 million barrels, some 5.5% of globally traded oil. Net oil imports were 108 million barrels, or 40% of China ‘s total oil consumption.

Posted by: b | Aug 10 2004 5:54 utc | 32

Japan and Iran

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Aug 10 2004 8:27 utc | 33

@Cloned Poster – nice story
Don´t do business with the bad Iranis. We have a handsome dictator at hand, that would like to take your money for a slightly smaller oilfield (and buy weapons from us).

Posted by: b | Aug 10 2004 9:09 utc | 34

Thanks to all who are contributing to this fascinating thread.

Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Aug 10 2004 9:28 utc | 35

Bernhard: Funny, as soon as I read about Sadr ordering to stop the flow of oil, I thought of Muad’Dib “He who can destroys something controls it.”
Speaking of Chalabi, it’s worth noting he’s quietly in Tehran now.
“I am rooting for $100 dollars a barrel.”
Koreyel, count me in. It’s time enough mankind comes to terms with a certain Mr. Malthus.
“Receding glaciers lift the curtain on new, untouched land every year, opening acres of rugged terrain for off-trail hiking and scrambling”
Hmmm, does this idiot really say it’s a good thing to have melting glaciers because it makes more areas for hiking, or am I just dumb?
That said, I don’t think 140$ a barrel should entirely end up in some Wahhabi lunatic’s hands, be it Fahd or Usama. Thankfully Europe taxes oil heavily so most of what the inane European driver pays *could* be put to good use if European govts had any sense. Namely, using the entire oil tax to subsidise renewable energy and assorted R / D. The irony is that if solar power was more developed, the Gulf area could still benefit from it since it’s one of the sunnier place on Earth. But for that the Saudis would need more enlightened rulers than the West had for the last decades.
“coal gassification, liquification”
The key question shouldn’t be if it’s doable but if this energy pollutes less. And I have doubts about anything based on coal, so far.
Teuton: “cheap mobility” indeed! That’s the core of the problem. Imhom the current level of mobility in Western societies is simply not sustainable, at least not when it concerns hundreds of millions, and soon billions, if India and China have their way. But as I said, this won’t be a problem for a long time; if oil doesn’t do it, depleted food and water reserves will. As far as I’m concerned, the only absolutely sure thing is that this century will end with less humans alive than it began with.
jdp: Peak oil doesn’t mean the reserves are nearly over, it just means they’re half-empty and you can’t get more oil than what you pump. All in all, it also means that the real troubles will come in several years, not in 2005, because the production will still be ok for years before really going down.
Coming economic troubles: I don’t think things will be rosy in Europe, indeed, but it won’t be jurt as much as the US, at least at the beginning. Then, it will depend on the global economy actually surviving at all, and on the Euro becoming quickly enough on par with dollar, or even a more important currency than dollar; if it happens not too late, European economy may rise again and not totally sink.
Iran: that’s the wild card right now, imho. And frankly, Japan would be foolish to leave for Lybia; better even try to deal with both countries. US and Japan off Iran would basically leave the market to Europe and China, and I don’t think it’s wise from Japan’s or US’s point of view.
There’s also the problem of the Iranian nuke. Well, they said before that they have some nasty reprisals if Israel or the US tries to destroy their infrastructure. And the more I think about it, the more I think one of the components is to dump the dollar for their oil. In fact, if Israel tries to radi Iran’s nuclear installations, that could well piss off the entire Arab world and bring them close, for once, which would mean that all Arab countries – followed by a pretty angry Chavez – to dump dollar and shift to Euros or any combination of their liking. Breaking the US economy would also wreck Israel’s economy, which is quite a big incentive for them.
“government expenses for broken chariots, worn-out horses, breast-plates and helmets, bows and arrows, spears and shields, protective mantles, draught-oxen and heavy wagons”
Thankfully, the Bush system means that the troops, not the State, have to pay for their own water and body armor.
“him wanting to be rich, because he could help a lot of people”
Frankly, I have trouble considering the guy is really honest; this smells of the highest hypocrisy from some greedy person. But since you know him, I’ll gladly be proven wrong.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Aug 10 2004 12:06 utc | 36

b,
while according to your article it does seem oil is being imported on a larger scale than I thought, China still has large reserves and are expolring with Russia the development of billions of barrels in Siberia. Further. Western China has loads of natural gas.
As Juan Cole points out, China and the US was firing on all cylinders in the late 1990s yet oil prices were falling. I do believe world oil will again see a glut one way or another.

Posted by: jdp | Aug 10 2004 12:14 utc | 37

Keep smiling through…
The US economy – a (still) optimistic view

Posted by: nemo | Aug 10 2004 12:22 utc | 38

…but of course, when it comes to oil, there are always risks and unknowns

Posted by: Nemo | Aug 10 2004 12:26 utc | 39

@jdp
I am also somewhat skeptical of the Peak Oil noise. I believe it in general terms, but think it is further away that we fear. Remember that it was calculated initially for the USA, which has been explored to death. Many oil producing areas of the world have not yet been fully explored, and we can expect significant additional discoveries when such exploration is conducted.
Also, higher oil prices will mean that some until-then un-economic reserves will suddenly become economic at these new prices.
This is particularly the case for oil sands (bitumen) and GTL – gas to liquids (which is an industrial process to get high quality gasoline from natural gas and is the new big thing in the oil industry currently).
There is no “peak gas” date yet (I’ve seen articles mentioning dates very close to the date for oil, but this is totally false).
@Cloned Poster
The Japan-iran story is a long one. The Iranians cannot make up their mmind whether they welcome foreign investment in their field or not, keep on inviting bids and then recanting ; projects drag on… Azadegan may not happen, but I doubt it will be because of US pressure. (see the ewample of South Pars 2&3, one of the few Iranian developments with foreign involvement, it was the cause of a nasty Europe-US spat on the topic of Iran, and Europe received a specific exception to the ILSA from the US for this projects and similar others).
@RossK – interesting point about stable / docile.
I have posted here a fairly long text on the issue of what it means to “control” the oil and set up a discussion at the Annex where I hope to see you all (I have put it at the Annex as I think it is more adapted for threads that we want to be active for more than a couple of days, which I think the subject deserves)

Posted by: Jérôme | Aug 10 2004 14:00 utc | 40

Jerome said:
One important element to add is that the dollar will fall as the oil prices rise, which will in turn increase the oil price rise (as producers will expect to keep their purchasing power in euros).
Oil effectively traded in Euros
2001  / 2002 /  2003
21.40 / 22.61 / 26.97 Unit price US $
0.895 / 0.945 / 1.132 US$-Euro Exchange
23.91 / 23.92 / 23.82 Unit price Euros

Thus, it seems clear that OPEC and the other oil exporters are already pricing crude oil in terms of euros, at least tacitly. Whether they start invoicing their crude oil sales in terms of euros remains to be seen.
The above table is also interesting for another reason. Row (2) shows that the import cost of crude oil has risen by approximately $25 billion from 2001 to 2003. This increase has directly added to the trade deficit. Therefore, the dollar has entered a vicious circle. As the dollar declines, the oil exporters raise the cost of their oil to protect them from a loss of purchasing power, and this rise in the price of crude oil further worsens the trade deficit, which causes the dollar to weaken further and the oil exporters to raise prices yet again.

Posted by: MarcinGomulka | Aug 10 2004 14:53 utc | 41

RossK:
I’m only suggesting that This is the End of…American Economic Hegemony.
And Name’s quote of tzu:
Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue.
From the Wikipedia article on King George lll:
Under William Pitt the Elder Britain won the Seven Years’ War (known as the French and Indian War in North America), and Britain acquired all of France’s possessions on the North American mainland, including French Canada, and the Ohio Valley. However, winning the war plunged Britain deep into a debt so large that at one point, almost half of the national revenue went toward paying interest on it. The problem of resolving this debt would indirectly lead to the American Revolution, conducted under Prime Minister Lord North.

Posted by: koreyel | Aug 10 2004 15:06 utc | 42

So if crude is rising, why are refined products falling at the pump (in the U.S.).
This ain’t normal.
Usually, the wholesale price for distillates tracks (and sometimes leads) the crude price. This sort of pricing inversion is rare and worth investigating.
Are gas pump prices falling outside the U.S.?

Posted by: Warbaby | Aug 10 2004 15:09 utc | 43

CNN current Breaking News: U.S. light crude reaches record $45.04 a barrel on concerns about supply, U.S. storms. Details coming.

Posted by: b | Aug 10 2004 15:47 utc | 44

Oil prices dip back below $45 after (yet another) record high
Crude prices – latest

Posted by: Nemo | Aug 10 2004 16:00 utc | 45

We all often tend to think of hydrocarbons as fuel for machines, and as mainly used for personal transport. I close my eyes and I see a rich suburbanite slipping into a SUV to go and buy a carton of milk. Or I see happy vacationers waiting to fly off to some boring tourist hotel. I see people who live what is today called ‘non-sustainable’ life-styles, and snittily I can judge them to be greedy, grasping, unaware, etc. (While myself driving a car to get to work, etc. so I don’t make that judgment..)
When we enlarge our vision a little bit, we see that ‘oil’ is used to produce much of the stuff and things we buy – from medecines to computers to plastic sandals. We can realise that replacements may be cumbersome, expensive, difficult, or even impossible in some cases. Yet, we can imagine going back in time, and living like, say, my grandfather did in in 1920. He had a bicycle and a cello. His wife cooked on a coal stove. Their clothes were high quality – wool and cotton. Etc. Etc.
And then we look around a little more. Some time ago I read two articles that attempted to figure the energy cost of buildings, independently of human activity (manufacturing, cooking, etc.) taking place inside them: taking buildings as shells that are to contain humans and provide them with the necessary confort needed for yet other activities. Producing the materials needed (even a wood chalet means using an electric saw..); assembling them (including roads for access to the new buildings); maintaining the buildings, repairing them, cooling and heating them, and providing water all day (including hot on tap) and light for part of the night inside them were the sorts of tasks included. The energy source used is varied, of course, but the cost in fossil fuels (this was in Switzerland, so coal is practically non-existent) is rather large. I would not like to put a number on it – it would be meaningless without the details (e.g. climate, method of calculation, etc.). Large. My own take was that the ‘doubling up’ procedure, known here as a possible measure for times of catastrophe (half the buildings are left empty and the humans pack into the remainder) makes perfect sense.
But we tend to think of buildings as immovable structures, just there, part of our man-made, constructed world. We take them for granted.
Finally (after we have considered transport some more, and skipped war, just for the happy oblivious ease of it, set aside industry for another day…) our eyes turn down to our plates. There is the legendary steak (cattle which is fed corn which was grown with the use of tractors, fertilizer, water pumps; beef goes to slaughter houses, travels in trucks, is processed, packed, etc. etc.), the portion of fancy spiced frozen potatoes, thawed and fried (fill it in..) and some snappy green beans.
Estimates as to how much energy is provided by fossil fuels to agriculture vary, from one calorie of fuel producing on calorie of food, to 10 calories producing one edible calorie, depending on a whole host of variables, including the mind-set of the calculator.
Our vision of the golden apple quietly growing on the tree, with sun and rain coming from the heavens, and the rustic farmer waiting till it will gloriously fall into his lap, or charmingly begs to be picked, ready to be eaten, is a myth.
One good article (short and readable) on oil and food:
Link
The upshot is that the vital commodity is not money but energy itself.

Posted by: Blackie | Aug 10 2004 17:01 utc | 46

@ marcinG.
That table is some piece of work. Seems to suggest that the turning point was actually reached some time ago.
@ koreyl
The historical parallels seem to be pretty compelling; certainly support your hypothesis (that I have just hopped a ride on).
@ Jerome
Have you already commented on Luke Mitchell’s piece in last month’s Harpers re: the Carter Doctrine on MidEast Oil Security?

Posted by: RossK | Aug 10 2004 17:23 utc | 47

@Blackie
Thanks for the article link – many good thoughts in there: The Oil We Eat – Following the food chain back to Iraq

Posted by: b | Aug 10 2004 18:35 utc | 48

Blackie: of course! I mean, money is literally nothing. The things that matter at the end of the day are physical, not virtual. Natural resources for instance. You can’t do anything with a 10$ bill; heck, it wouldn’t even make a good toilet paper.
Koreyel, about the 7-Years War:
UK paid so much during the war it had to tax the settlers in America, because part of the war debt came from having to defend them from the pesky French. If you look at it this way, you can’t help notice there was a good deal of selfishness and hypocrisy in the “No taxation without representation”, more aptly translated as “Fuck you. We used you to get rid of the only real danger we had here, the French; no we don’t need your protection anymore so get lost, and thanks for paying the bill.”
It’s worth noting the British also took most of the French possessions in India at the end of the war.
Last but not least, the main war occurred in continental Europe between France, Austria, Prussia and Russia, with Prussia allied with UK against all the others. The English didn’t send big armies on the continent, they kept them to conquer French colonies; France on the other hand was actively fighting German states and couldn’t afford to spend enough money and troops overseas, thus losing their colonies to the English. Whatever, the English basically subsidised most of the Prussian war effort, which sank their trearuy even more than the colonial war. Though, at the end of the day, they were those who had the most direct benefits; Prussia got nearly wiped out by Russia, who didn’t win anything, except a huge reputation as a military heavy-weight, that was to last until the 1980s.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Aug 10 2004 19:03 utc | 49

thanks for the link to “The Oil We Eat”, blackie and b. It’s an interesting perspective. I don’t question what he says on agriculture, and it’s indeed high time we reformed our totally dysfunctional agribusiness eco-system (and France is one of the worst offenders here).
On the other hand, I would dispute the concept of “primary energy production”. If I am not mistaken, this only takes into account solar energy converted into chemical energy by plants. It does not appear to take into account energy stored in oceans and the atmosphere, nor the energy in light which is simply reflecled off and/or not captured. These are also available to us, and the numbers so dwarf our current consumption that it is effectively infinite for the foreseeable future.
When easily accessible energy such as oil or carbohydrates run out, we will have to rely on solar energy more directly, whether via solar panels, wind mills or tidal/wave energy (this last one being lunar gravitational energy, actually – but it’s cheaper than solar today…) – and we will be able to. It is already operational, and any requirement to actually use these sources will unleash a new wave of progress and improvement that will rapidly make the cost more bearable.
I do not see any role of oil that we cannot replace. Cars can use electricity. Plastics – we will recycle a lot more. Electricity will come from a variety of renewable sources, and for a while, from nuclear and coal (not quite renewable, some pollution issues, but still extremely cheap)
The most valid point is that article is that we are not currently valuing properly the resources that we “pick up”, and thus we do not price them correctly. This was not an issue as long as we used only infinitesimal quantities of these resources, especially when renewable like “green energy”. Now that we use a significant portion of the resource, we need to learn to treat it as a capital and not as an income. Oil being the most “liquid” form of energy”, increases in oil prices are the fastest way to get there.

Posted by: Jérôme | Aug 10 2004 19:53 utc | 50

Jerome: On the other hand, I would dispute the concept of “primary energy production”. If I am not mistaken, this only takes into account solar energy converted into chemical energy by plants. It does not appear to take into account energy stored in oceans and the atmosphere, nor the energy in light which is simply reflecled off and/or not captured.
I understood it that way too. E.g as you said, wind, popular these days — sun + atmosphere, etc. So it is incomplete, leaving room for new constructions, arrangements — optimism!

Posted by: Blackie | Aug 10 2004 20:10 utc | 51

Jerome: On the other hand, I would dispute the concept of “primary energy production”. If I am not mistaken, this only takes into account solar energy converted into chemical energy by plants. It does not appear to take into account energy stored in oceans and the atmosphere, nor the energy in light which is simply reflecled off and/or not captured.
I understood it that way too. E.g. as you said, wind, popular these days — sun + atmosphere, etc. So it is incomplete, leaving room for new constructions, arrangements — optimism!

Posted by: Blackie | Aug 10 2004 20:12 utc | 52

Down on a golf course I frequent often in a holiday home owned by my richer brother-in-law there’s a wind farm. It’s in a place that the wind blows 95% of the year. After 15 years, it’s a cash cow. That’s where we are going.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Aug 10 2004 20:17 utc | 53

I know on my first post @ 4:35 I launched a pretty explosive screed.
I’d like to address the ardor of that post.
Many of you are Europeans and have no idea concerning the lifestyle insanities of your American cousins.
Our SUVs are one thing…but you should see the size of our pickup trucks. I stand 185 cm and these monsters tower above me. And there aren’t just a few of them. There are thousands and thousands of them hurtling every which way. Most of them have double tailpipes (there is something manly about that). Many of them also have 4 wheels on the back axle (there is something manly about that too).
Note: These people aren’t hualing steel for a living. But surely they ought to be.
Many of these folk are retirees driving to shopping centers or just common retailers driving to work.
I kid you not.
You actually have to see these lifestyles to believe they exist. It is astounding. You would be dumbfounded. And I suppose you too would be irate.
Here in America… there is no sense of balance. No sense of tomorrow. No sense of ecomony. No sense of ecology. No sense of old-fashioned thrift.
The thinking here is brutally simple: Bigger is better. Bigger is more manly. And I am bigger than you. Take that you son of a bitch.
Yes it is that simple. And that kind of brute thinking traces all the way back into human history: to the man on the horse towering over his serfs.
Will humanity ever rue the day that a gallon of gas–rich with stored chemical energy capable of doing so much good work for humanity–instead got squandered on a nation of monster trucks?
I can’t help but think yes.
Which is all to say…Jérôme your good and level-headed sense is welcome here.
But how do you transition from where America is right now to something even close to level-headed good sense?
Teuton has it dead right:
For instance, cheap mobility seems to be ingrained not only in the psyche of the average US-citizen. But the US is absolutely addicted to cheap energy and will, it seems, do almost anything to keep its insane rate of consumption up.
Only the most rude and crude and hurtful price increases will teach the American public to be economical again.
If I sound a bit hostile… at least you have a better perspective from where I am coming from… I am indeed… a stranger in a strange land.

Posted by: koreyel | Aug 10 2004 20:41 utc | 54

@Koreyel
Wheelbarrows have twin pipes too, that’s where we are going.
I have a thought in my head I need to get out. Old Testament, Moses saw Our Lord in a Bush.
Are the fundies latched on to this?

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Aug 10 2004 20:51 utc | 55

koreyel (I still think of you as -pea-, if you don’t mind… strange how the mind works)
There are a few US pick up trucks in my neighborood, and one or two Hummers. I can assure you they are noticed, in a city where the Mini is a fairly standard car. When I tell people that these (the pick up trucks) are the “normal” car in the US, they indeed have trouble believing it…
They are not very convenient in a city where some streets are about 6-7 feet wide and your average parking space is 4-5 meters (12-15 feet) long.
Each country has its “human rights”. In France, you have the “human right” to smoke where you want, to let your dog do its stuff on the sidewalk and to park on pedestrian crossings. In Germany, a basic “human right” is to go 150 mph on the freeway (and have the car that does that). In the US, it is to have a tank for a car.
We need higher oil prices (sorry to be repetitive about this). If we will not do it on our own through taxes, at least an increase caused by the “dirty ay-rabs” is more tolerable politically and will get us a good chunk of the result (conservation, alternatives, etc).

Posted by: Jérôme | Aug 10 2004 21:00 utc | 56

Great thread and dear to my heart. Just arrived here at the Moon for the first time in a few days. Been busy trying to figure out how, and to explain why I want to get elected. (Part of me doesn’t. I’d rather start to draw Social Security [while there’s still some available] and move to a NM porch and play my guitar & read this blog).
Just a couple of comments on the thread.
Someone up thread mentioned, and I think it’s important to remember, that Peak Oil isn’t the end of oil but the beginning of the downslope of availability. Our demand for oil can no longer be satisfied by simply opening the faucet a little more. Recovery of fossil fuel resources start to require a ever increasing cost in energy; i.e. EROEI (Energy Returned On Energy Invested). Oil sands and other fossil alternatives have a relatively low EROEI ratio.
While there is apparently abundant Natural Gas reserves, keep in mind that a gas field peaks and then has a sharp downslope. In other words, when a gas field peaks it’s close to being depleted from a resource recovery standpoint.
I think the practical points of where we should be trying to go from here are well covered throughout this thread. I hope to make where we need to be headed an opportunity to be seized. Hope I can convince enough VT’ers to give me a chance.

Posted by: Juannie | Aug 11 2004 0:59 utc | 57

Financial Times: UK net oil importer for first time in decade

James Knightley at ING Financial Markets said : “North Sea reserves are being run down and it’s difficult to see production increase in a meaningful way unless they find new fields… The risk is that [the trade balance] will increase unless we see a correction in consumer spending.” In response to declining oil output, the government has sought to attract oil companies by cutting rental fees on licences. Britain has also begun work on an import infrastructure to prepare for the looming structural shift in the energy industry. As the UK is expected to become a net gas importer as early as next year, it is building liquefied natural gas import terminals.
The UK also intends to increase renewable share of power generation to 20 per cent by 2020.

Posted by: b | Aug 11 2004 6:12 utc | 58