Gods and Daemons – Moon of Alabama

August 15, 2004

Gods and Daemons

In an Los Angeles Times Op-Ed, Sam Harris rants about religion as “Holly Terror”

President Bush and the Republicans in the Senate have failed — for the moment — to bring the Constitution into conformity with Judeo-Christian teachings. But even if they had passed a bill calling for a constitutional ban on gay marriage, that would have been only a beginning. Leviticus 20:13 and the New Testament book of Romans reveal that the God of the Bible doesn’t merely disapprove of homosexuality; he specifically says homosexuals should be killed: “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death.”

…
Koran 9:123 tells us it is the duty of every Muslim man to “make war on the infidels who dwell around you.” Osama bin Laden may be despicable, but it is hard to argue that he isn’t acting in accord with at least some of the teachings of the Koran.
…
Religious faith is always, and everywhere, exonerated. It is now taboo in every corner of our culture to criticize a person’s religious beliefs.
…
There are now more people in our country who believe that the universe was created in six solar days than there were in Europe in the 14th century.
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It is time we recognize that religious beliefs have consequences. As a man believes, so he will act.
…
perhaps it is time we subjected our religious beliefs to the same standards of evidence we require in every other sphere of our lives.

The last sentence does not make much sense to me. Beliefs and evidence are antagonisms.

Asking for reason and moral behaviour, as Harris implicit does, should lead him to one simple sentence:

Act only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law. Link

The ´belief´ system nearest to Kant is Buddhism. Its practices are reasoning only about inner goods and evils, gods and daemons, and not on higher external deities. That, in my view, disqualifies it as religion, even though Harris mentions it as such.

The historical records and current conflicts show various religions having evil consequences. Shouldn´t we find ways to overcome them or at least diminish their ramifications?

Posted by b on August 15, 2004 at 20:44 UTC | Permalink

Comments

Book choice
Well worth a read is The New Crusades – Contructing the Muslim Enemy by Emran Qureshi, Michael A. Sells (Editors).
The book deals with the ‘extremist’ elements of a number of religious traditions and churches and has some fine rebuttals of the ‘inevitable clash of civilisations’ theorizing that some quarters are using to galvanize support and to generate antipathy. For every action there is a reaction – this book won’t do you any harm at all…

Posted by: Nemo | Aug 15 2004 20:59 utc | 1

Wouldn’t it be a nice start if we could for the beginning just believe in one another, instead of in some lofty abstraction, however loving, caring, oppressive or lethal it may be?

Posted by: teuton | Aug 15 2004 21:22 utc | 2

animism any one?
better yet, panpsychism?

Posted by: anna missed | Aug 15 2004 22:01 utc | 3

I believe in the Whiskey Bar but then that entails spirits within the body. =)

Posted by: beq | Aug 15 2004 22:04 utc | 4

yes beg, and isnt that the ghost of Teilhard de Chardin down at the end of the bar?

Posted by: anna missed | Aug 15 2004 22:40 utc | 5

@beq
Sitting through a storm at the scotch coast with some Lagavulin in reach is quite a meditation. :-))

Posted by: b | Aug 15 2004 22:44 utc | 6

“God is dead — The WTO has replaced Him.”

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Aug 15 2004 23:25 utc | 7

Religion is dangerous when left to the mind of man. The economic movement of the new Gilded Age has used religion and morals through the likes of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson to convince the masses that the repubs are on gods side in their moral crusade.
At the same time, the free market and tax cuts are gods will instead of being your brothers keeper. So as the flock of sheeple are being lead by the moral crusaders, the supposed hand of Adam Smith is working its magic and creating a bunch indebted poupers. Grover Norquest great vision is to create so much debt and ruin SS as to bankrupt the central government. All while we get saved and asure our place in heaven.
What an America we live in.

Posted by: jdp | Aug 15 2004 23:30 utc | 8

The Freedom to believe all sorts of weird things is supposed to be part of our
Constitution….as is the freedom to not be subject to others’ weird beliefs.
And that’s the problem we have now.
The fundies in this country are just as wacky as someone who practices voodoo…or just as connected, I guess, if you view it that way.
So I don’t begrudge anyone the right to believe what they want to believe, but those beliefs should not be taught in our publically funded schools, nor should they be part of our govt policy.
The problem with the U.S. is the same as it ever was…the anti-intellectualism that is as apple pie as grandma and the snake she handled.
The problem is when you have a large group of people in a country who use religious beliefs as a political issue to gain and keep power, and make it impossible to have a rational discussion about the subject.
Once again, the south, that bastion of slavery, jim crow, the scopes monkey trial, and now George Bush, is one of the biggest problems this nation faces…and again, when I say this, I’m saying it as someone who grew up in that same religiously dysfunction south.
It’s not just the south, of course, because there are other areas with large populations of un or under-educated religious populations…Scarborough country…Boston…
Again, the problem in the U.S. is a lack of education. That’s also the problem with other aspects of our govt., too…the reason white blue collar men vote against their interests…the reason media personalities have a following, even though they play to stupidity.
Any religion that thinks its mission is to convert the infidel, whoever they may label the infidel or heathen or whatever is a problem.
India had problems with the Hindu fascists, too, and they just recently (finally) lost their hold on power.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 15 2004 23:51 utc | 9

Blaming religion is short sighted if that is regarded as he prime enemy of peace and justice. Organised religions (yes Buddhism too ask the repressed of Thailand) are nothing more than the false philosophical basis for large power structures. I don’t have much time for the average person’s adherence to two thousand year old superstitions but really it’s not the superstition that is at fault it is greedy power hungry people who seek to use that superstition to their own ends that are the problem.
As long as people seek to organise themselves into large societies they will be vulnerable to the self seeking. It doesn’t matter if they organise themselves into ‘rationalist’ societies; a Stalin will come and corrupt that. And as we can see from Bernhard’s link something as seemingly simple and logical as Kant’s Categorical Imperative is easily twisted and manipulated to seemingly justify anything. The beauty of this approach by the megalomaniacs is that instead of arguing the act, the believers instead argue the irrelevant philosophical points that ‘justify’ the act.
Organising societies into smaller groups has several advantages. People are likely to know their leaders better and are therefore more aware of flaws and less likely to be misled. The stakes aren’t so high therefore the temptations of corruption are lessened and finally leaders are able to do less damage to a group of 200 followers than 200 million.
There are of course disadvantages for example minority groups are more likely to have their needs trampled on within a small society of otherwise homogenous beliefs. That is why the idea of a constitution which can protect the rights of all in a large group of small societies appears desirable. Unfortunately a central set of rules also contains huge power and can be subverted to meet the needs of a few.
The truly demoralising thing about all this is that after thousands of years of trying, humanity’s attempts at grouping people into fair societies still end in the same self destruction motivated by greed and hubris.

Posted by: Debs in ’04 | Aug 16 2004 1:22 utc | 10

When I read – Holly Terror – I was hoping it was going to be about the Druid Army of God(s).

Posted by: biklett | Aug 16 2004 1:41 utc | 11

well said Debs’04, although it is a little odd that the mere size of a population could make such a difference, but often it seems to be the case. The person to person accountability and the net responsability of power, in smaller groups, is a necessity in adapting to changing circumstances that face the group, as a fact of survival.
It could also be noted that the treatment of differing “inclinations” ie homosexuality, are very often integrated as a naturally occuring/ expected part of the cultural makeup. Native American culture as one example.

Posted by: ann missed | Aug 16 2004 2:06 utc | 12

THE CHRIST CONSPIRACY
The Jesus Mythos is similar to the Buddha Mythos is simular to the….
The Christ Conspiracy by Acharya S. is an incredible erudite read, though academic , it is easy to read, it is Controversial and explosive, She publicly reveals information that radically undermines unquestioning faith and institutionalized mythic-membership structures (churches, clerical priesthoods, and religious orders) that have censored dissent and stifled individuality. I found why I have always felt something was not right with this religion or any religions…after reading her book. while I am aware that people need comunity religion seem to be nothing more than pseudo-communities. Group dynamics (even blogs)fulfill needs, but can be just as easily be high-jacked by outspoken charismatic usually white male who dominate groupthink. Religions are nothing more than meme’s to me i.e.(mind virus’s).

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Aug 16 2004 2:12 utc | 13

@Uncle:
” Group dynamics (even blogs)fulfill needs, but can be just as easily be high-jacked by outspoken charismatic usually white male who dominate groupthink.”
Well Uncle, I have to agree with you on this one utterly.
What I saw happen over at Whiskey Annex, in it’s first three weeks, was a lot of attempted hijackings and turf-agenda wars going on over a very small piece of real estate.
Most amusing. Reminded this historically inclined one to think hard on Thirty Years War and Russian Revolution(1923-1937).
Not quite sure anymore what is more dangerous: religious pimps with visions or intellectual pimps with dreams and systems. They all seem equally like lunatics to me.
I had that one real squared away in my mind 4 weeks ago.
My ultimate belief system has been somewhat modified by my recent observations.
Anyway, I enjoyed your multiple citations of Mr. Bageant. He has some really interesting thoughts and takes on things.
Thanks for introducing me to Bageant.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Aug 16 2004 2:54 utc | 14

FlashHarry,
I was gone for a month right as Billmon closed the bar so I missed the transition here to Moon of Alabama. What do you mean by your reference to the Whiskey Annex? Is this not the annex that was being discussed when he closed the bar? Thanks for clearing this up for me.

Posted by: Sassybelle | Aug 16 2004 3:33 utc | 15

John Varley has an interesting little essay on religion, hate and red vs blue America. Funny, poignant and a bit of satire for an evening read. Welcome back, Sassybelle.

Posted by: SME in Seattle | Aug 16 2004 3:55 utc | 16

@Sassybelle:
When Bill closed the Bar, two sites were set up simultaneously: Moon and Whiskey Annex. The takeoff here went well;the takeoff at WA was a little rocky.
We’re trying to rebuild over there–good people working on it.
Enjoy where you are for the time being. It’s a nice place.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Aug 16 2004 4:02 utc | 17

@SME:
Better than In Re:Varley v. US:
Us simply trades Alaska to Canada in exchange for BC and Alberta. We migrating Reds get the Calgary Stampede and some bad-assed hockey too: just in case we get homesick.
That way, the 20,000,000+ Red Army will not show up on your lawn in Seattle requesting their vodka ration, in mid-November, if the election turns out wrong.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Aug 16 2004 4:51 utc | 18

As I said before, any idea, ideology etc. as well as religion can be and was/will be hijacked by few without moral. If we let them. God knows how but seems like those without moral (just because of it) always manage to accomplish their goal. At least temporarily. They manage to corrupt us , to mislead us, to force us…whatever. As much as we are individuals we are also “social animals”. They exploit this greatly.
There is no idea, ideology or religion (anywhere in the world) that those people can’t hijack and corrupt. So instead going after the idea, ideology or religion we should go after THOSE people. The only way to do it as far as I understand would be to minimize their chances through adequate promotion of freedom. I don’t believe that strong in constitution, laws etc. as such (they are just instruments) cause as unscrupulous as they are they can change it easily (what we are witnessing now in USA or in USSR & other communist countries before).We need free thinking…they can’t allow it.

Posted by: vbo | Aug 16 2004 5:18 utc | 19

Extremist base found?
Cave linked to John the Baptist found in Israel?
Damn! With this publicity the IDF will probably blow it up claiming it was used by radicals as a recruiting and indoctrination base…

Posted by: Nemo | Aug 16 2004 17:16 utc | 20

Attention: Please adjust your seats to an upright position and fasten your lap-belts, we are about to enter the Dark Ages. Again.

Posted by: beq | Aug 17 2004 12:03 utc | 21

@BEQ:
Re:Dark Ages
Bageant is something else, as an analyst.
And believe me, it’s happening.
I see it all around, in my area of Virginia.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 17 2004 14:22 utc | 22

@ anon: I’ve seen enough to worry but his piece was a cold shower. I’m in Virginia too.

Posted by: beq | Aug 17 2004 15:13 utc | 23

As much as the current political situations worry me, i also accept that there is nothing we can do about it apart from inform those close to us and open other’s minds. but we are best to let that which we cannot change influence the way we act ourselves.
“Show me the way”

Posted by: Tim | Jun 1 2005 11:01 utc | 24

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