Many things out there need to be discussed, but don´t fit the other topics. Here is some virtual space for them.
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July 15, 2004
Open Thread
Comments
Good conversation. All it is lacking is snark.
So…
Perhaps McDonald’s might be considered an ethical investment.
It is said we’ve never gone to war against a country that allows Ronald to freely market his burgers.
But then again…today’s Washington Times reports that obesity is now an illness, and so will be covered by Medicare.
That’s troubling. If obesity is an illness does that mean those suffering from it can get handicap parking? What will our parking lots look like when they get supersized with blue spaces? And worse yet–is it ethical to encourage the obese to walk less?
Maybe it is best if we forget McDonald’s as an investment vehicle.
How about Wendy’s? They are big on salads, and I don’t think we’ve ever gone to war with a country that has a Wendy’s either.
Then again…Wendy’s owns Tim Hortons in Canada and they sell doughnuts…
So we are back were we started…round and rounder so to speak…
Hey..here is an idea: Does anybody know of a stock fund that just invests in bicycle manufacturing firms?
[@Alabama thanks for the Murray Kempton lead. Will be reading lots about him tomorrow.]
Posted by: koreyel | Jul 16 2004 6:29 utc | 101
ck’s link on Sibel Edmonds lead eventually to this story on the same site:
Al-Qaida Tried to Pentrate
FBI’s Translation Service
A transcript of the 9/11 Commission hearing on June 16, 2004 reveals that the FBI’s intelligence translation service was a target for penetration by a senior Al-Qaida operative.
The details barely appear in the Washington Post transcript of proceedings, despite confirming claims by FBI whistleblower, Sibel Edmonds that covert external agents had infiltrated the FBI, and had ensured vital intelligence remained hidden.
The revealing details were in the text of a handout given to all attendees, minutes before the hearing started on 16 June. It was a statement to the commissin by Patrick J. Fitzgerald, US Attorney, Northern District of Illinois, who has prosecuted Al-Qaida cases.
In it, Fitzgerald says that senoir Al-Qaida operative, Ali Mohammed had tried at one point to get a job in intelligence translation with the FBI.
….
this was reported in the Wapo but was significantly edited, the full version of Fitzgeralds comments are in this story with links to the Wapo’s version.
Posted by: sukabi | Jul 16 2004 7:39 utc | 104
PS to alabama– I thought perhaps that what you are reaching toward is the idea that we are each responsible for our role in either contributing or searching for our part in the solution to that situation or not. Responsible with all the ramifications of that word responsibility.
Posted by: x | Jul 16 2004 14:33 utc | 105
Food for thought for all you economists…
Truths about trade
An upbeat article about jobs, trade, globalization etc.
Posted by: Nemo | Jul 16 2004 15:50 utc | 106
That’s it, x, but with a modest nuance: “responding” to a problem “responsibly” is not always the same as “solving” it, not even the same as trying to solve it. Attempting to solve an insoluble problem may be a way of denying its magnitude, in which case that attempt would itself be irresponsible (refusing to accept the irreducibly problematic character of the problem).
If a problem is not to be solved–and how can we know this until we’ve tried, really tried, to solve it?–then the responsibility that remains is to keep thinking about that problem in ways that keep it open as a problem (call it the “work of mourning”–Freud’s powerful term).
Recognizing that a problem is insoluble–without then proceding to ignore it as a problem–is what I’d call an “art” of responsibility. There may be consolations for such an art–as with any art, the consolation, for example, that comes of doing it well–but there are no evident rewards. The uneasy sense, rather, that we are always in arrears….
Hard to discuss, this.
Posted by: alabama | Jul 16 2004 15:54 utc | 107
alabama — wonderful “response” by you 🙂
What you have done then is point out something counterintuitive: that perhaps the problem we seek to solve isn’t the problem, and we need to understand the problem. Perhaps what we are attempting to solve (if we are putting the crimes of our country in a theological context) is a symptom of a problem that is much bigger and far more extensive and less confined to a certain place and time than we think.
So the “solution” becomes something on a grand time-evolving and non place-specific scale, and yet we each participate on a collective level, but as individuals with our own lives to lead and our own death as you say. That’s a horse of a different color. So, as you say, we may not be responsible for the solution but rather for our own part to play in that solution. And who is to say what that part is? (There is an answer to that seemingly rhetorical question.)
but there are no evident rewards
🙂
Posted by: x | Jul 16 2004 16:21 utc | 109
x, I did suggest, here or somewhere else, but only yesterday, that if 100 million Americans were to declare, without any effort to look good, that “bad things have been done in our name, with resources provided by us, and we accept responsibility for this, and would like to make amends, and do better”–then they would make a mighty difference.
Observe that this statement is not an indictment of a few Americans. In fact it’s not an indictment at all. It’s a judgment (of ourselves) and an acting upon that judgment.
It would certainly be one way of “responding” to the irresponsibility of those who deny that bad things have taken place, and that those bad things have been sponsored by us all.
My first, and not my last, contribution towards the realizing of this gesture is simply to propose it here and now. I see no need to refine upon it–it’s simple enough, once you get it– but to be effective, it would have to be disseminated widely.
People who read this appraisal here, and who agree with it, can certainly carry it forward elsewhere.
Posted by: alabama | Jul 16 2004 16:50 utc | 110
OT: ‘Saddam Rising’ or maybe better ‘Allawi Rising’!!!
Allawi shot prisoners in cold blood: witnesses
Posted by: Fran | Jul 16 2004 17:09 utc | 112
Upthread we talked about “ethical” investment policies. Here’s some good news.
Delegates to the recent General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), a church with nearly three million members, voted 431 to 62 to begin to join the divestment campaign against Israel, and voted 471 to 34 to call on Israel to end construction of the walls it is building to encage the Palestinians. The Rev. Victor Makari, the Church’s liaison to the Middle East, said:
“I think the issue of divestment is a very sensitive one with Israel. . . . If nothing else seems to have changed the policy of Israel toward Palestinians, we need to send a clear and strong message.”
Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 16 2004 17:29 utc | 113
@x
Huge news (nothing in the media, of course)…… wonder if they’ll vote in November for Nader?
Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 16 2004 17:37 utc | 115
Cloned:
On a related subject, from Churches for Middle East Peace–
Church Leaders Ask for Cooperation with U.N. to Resolve Barrier Issue and Resume Peace Negotiations
(WASHINGTON, July 9, 2004) U.S. Church leaders appealed to their government to support the International Court of Justice’s advisory opinion on Israel’s separation barrier. The court said earlier today that it is against international law for Israel to build its barrier in the occupied territories and that it should be dismantled. For nearly a year, the U.S. churches that work together through Churches for Middle East Peace have advocated for the United States government’s intervention to stop Israel’s building of the barrier beyond the 1967 “green line” on occupied land in the West Bank and in East Jerusalem.
“We are grateful that the humanitarian consequences for the Palestinian people of this massive barrier are no longer being ignored,” was the response of Episcopal Bishop Barry Howe of the Diocese of West Missouri. Howe was part of a delegation of seven U.S. Episcopal bishops who viewed the barrier on a trip to Palestine and Israel in May. “The International Court opinion as well as that of the Israeli Supreme Court ruling on June 30 emphasizes the humanitarian dimension as well as that of the rule of law.” Recognizing that the Israelis argue that they needed the barrier for protection from violent terrorist acts, Bishop Howe continued: “The security that Israel seeks, and deserves, will be found in resolving the conflict through a negotiated solution with all concerned and the establishment of a Palestinian state with peace and security for all in the region.”
Franciscan Sister Florence Deacon, director of Franciscans International (an NGO at the United Nations in New York), noted that Franciscans have had custody of Christianity’s traditional Holy Land shrines for 800 years. She appreciated the Court’s emphasis on the role of the United Nations in negotiating a just and lasting peace in that land sacred to all the children of Abraham. “For the past 50 years, the United States has been a trusted friend of the state of Israel while also caring about the Palestinian people’s welfare, and more recently their political rights. Our government needs to use these historic ties to push both sides toward serious negotiations without further delay.” She urged the United States “to be a partner with the global community and work within the United Nations’ system to bring security to both peoples. We cannot have two sets of standards for upholding international law.”
Dennis Frado, Director of the Lutheran Office for World Community at the United Nations, said, “All Members of the United Nations should respect today’s advisory opinion from the International Court of Justice. This is a particularly important principle for all of the parties seeking an end to the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians.” Referring to the Lutheran churches’ historical involvement with Namibia, he said, “We recall the ICJ’s opinion in 1971 that South Africa was illegally occupying Namibia. That dispute unfortunately continued to take too many lives and cause unnecessary hardships on both sides before it was resolved. The religious community is called to redouble our efforts for peace with justice in this region as well.”
Churches for Middle East Peace
Posted by: x | Jul 16 2004 17:44 utc | 116
@x
And the Catholic Church don’t want to give communion to Kerry because of his abortion views! (BTW, this was the reason for Chimpy visiting the Pope, apparently it came up for discussion at their meeting in June)
They should say it as it is and condemn for his “same as Bush” views wrt Israel.
Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 16 2004 17:57 utc | 117
Apathy is winning – but you won’t bother to read about it of course
Weary with trying to keep up with the latest news? Can’t be bothered to keep on top of all the issues of the day? Reduced to scanning blogs for headlines? Exhausted by the endless torrent of scandals, crimes and horror stories? Ask yourself – is it compassion fatigue or Attention Deficit Disorder? Pretty soon it won’t really matter – the writer’s block that paralyzes your favorite bloggers from time to time shouldn’t distress them unduly as fewer and fewer people are reading nowadays. Bread, circuses and soma are all that you need for a Republican Reich lasting for a million years and if you can wean yourself off reading now you won’t even know about it. So if you can slowly and not too strenuously summon up a bit of energy choose Apathy – because combined with the attention span of a goldfish you just know it makes sense.
‘On writer’s block’
Literary reading is declining faster than before, Arts Endowment’s new report says
Literary reading in dramatic decline, according to National Endowment for the Arts survey – link to report
Sigh. I bet nobody even reads this.
Posted by: Jonah | Jul 16 2004 18:41 utc | 118
I have to check if this is true, maybe somebody else knows but:
BBC Radio 4 today named the British spy, whose intelligence was used, temporarilly, to firm up the Iraq dossier.
He was named as Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf.
The Radio 4 programme was – The NOW show. Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf is also known as “Comical Ali”.
Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 16 2004 19:55 utc | 119
@Flash, I hope Bernhard removes my last post.
I was Onioned!
Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 16 2004 20:24 utc | 121
@ Cloned Poster
Are you sure that the broadcast was not intended as a satirical ‘joke’?
Citing the man whose name became a byword for being totally removed from reality at the time of the initial attack on Iraq as the ‘source’ for an intelligence report shot through with lies, fantasy and unfounded speculation seems to be a weak attempt at humor I suspect. ‘Blame an Iraqi fool’ might play better with an English audience than ‘Blame your useless, incompetent intelligence services who couldn’t find their way home from work without help and also blame your Prime Minister and his docile crew for their lies and ass-licking of the psychopath Bush’. It’s a briefer ‘explanation’ too. It is the British who are the laughing stock, however much they might wish to deflect the fact.
The Iraqi gentleman in question has had enough contempt heaped upon him without now being placed on a collaborator’s death list courtesy of English ‘humor’.
Posted by: Nemo | Jul 16 2004 20:26 utc | 122
@ Cloned Poster
I was writing to you as you realized!
🙂
Posted by: Nemo | Jul 16 2004 20:27 utc | 123
@Nemo
I’m changing my radio browser to R4.
Are you following BBC Pravda’s coverage of the BNP to take the heat off the Liar?
Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 16 2004 20:32 utc | 124
@CP
My take on sales- either institutional or
retail in Investment banks or commission
brokerages–Is similar to the great French poet
V. Lestat”s metaphor for the world: “The Savage
Garden”
Methinks I saw in my stint a lot of
sociopathic velociraptors on the “Street”, moving
the hamburger of the day–tainted or not–and
often all too often building their McMansions on
the bleached bones of their clients, Tamerlane
style.
I love Mike Lewis’ cuddly creature,
the “Human Pirahna”.
In the “City”, were you all perfect gentlemen?
Posted by: FLASHHARRY | Jul 16 2004 20:46 utc | 125
@Flash
Worked in the “City” from 1984 to 1989
Young, innocent, embibed(sp?), saw the light when I worked in East Africa in the 90’s and see evil today.
Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 16 2004 20:53 utc | 126
OT in an OThread
On the death penalty, he said: “I favor the death penalty for abortionists and other people who take life.”
hmmm -logic?
Coburn different kind of political cat
Posted by: Bernhard | Jul 16 2004 21:14 utc | 127
@CP
I could be making, right now $1-1.5M a year, if
I’d stayed in. Thank God Old Flashy had little of
the velociraptor in him.
Haven’t regretted walking away, ever.
Take care CP.
Posted by: FLASHHARRY | Jul 16 2004 21:22 utc | 129
@Flash
Goodnight, I’m outta here too. Have a date with a golf babe tomorrow, hope she’ll cure my shanking.
Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 16 2004 21:27 utc | 130
@Bernard:
Who are the top teams in German first division
football these days?
I know, completely, OT.
Posted by: FLASHHARRY | Jul 16 2004 21:29 utc | 131
@flashharry
Bremen, Munich Bundesliga
– I am not really interested in it. World shampionship is fun and the smaller clubs “on the gound” too, but the first divison is pure business.
Posted by: Bernhard | Jul 16 2004 21:37 utc | 132
Thanks Bernard:
I’ll check out your links.
You folks wave a good weekend.
Posted by: FLASHHARRY | Jul 16 2004 23:16 utc | 134
So, now they are getting ready to imprison just anyone as terrorists, not only Arabs!
FBI Warns al-Qaida May Recruit Non-Arabs
Posted by: Fran | Jul 17 2004 5:26 utc | 136
More interessting reading, this time from the Guardian.
Don’t blame Arafat – Camp David failed because Israeli hardliners manipulated intelligence
Posted by: Fran | Jul 17 2004 5:45 utc | 137
They must be scared!
House Votes to Block Aid to Countries That Would Surrender Americans to World Court
Posted by: Fran | Jul 17 2004 6:14 utc | 138
What is one to make of this?
“I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn’t do my job.”
— President Bush, quoted in the Lancaster New Era, during a private meeting with an Amish group.
Source
Posted by: SusanG | Jul 17 2004 6:53 utc | 139
Russia: Putin Considers Sending Troops to Iraq
or maybe even as Bush asked, imagine that – Afganishtan!!!! Unbelievable he even asked.
Posted by: Fran | Jul 17 2004 13:15 utc | 140
SusanG, thanks for the link re Bush and the Amish.
“What is one to make of this?” — My own take on this is that the POTUS, an honest, godfearing man, has met with the Amish, a bunch of honest, godfearing, and pacifist people like the president. Having read all the moving details about the meeting, the sheer goodwill that was in the room, and what a nice guy Bush is if the demands of power let him be just as he really is, I wish I was an American and were allowed to vote for this wonderful person. Hey, look at Fran’s link, even the Russians like him! And he has looked Putin in the eye and all that…
Posted by: teuton | Jul 17 2004 13:43 utc | 141
Fran,
I immediately read the FBI readying to pick up non-Arabs as the first stage of “mission creep” –to be able to pick up anyone dissenting here as they like.
If posters here go missing for a few days, I’ll assume they’re in Gitmo from here on out.
We are all enemy combatants now.
Posted by: SusanG | Jul 17 2004 14:28 utc | 142
@ SusanG
yep, you right, sure hope someone is going to wake us up soon from this nightmare. I can not imagine how it must be for you being there – at least, for the time being, I am only a outside observer and that is already bad enough.
Posted by: Fran | Jul 17 2004 14:35 utc | 143
I’m impressed by Pennsylvania–so much to lose, so little room for error!
Posted by: alabama | Jul 17 2004 14:41 utc | 144
@ teuton
your post sounds just the way I am feeling. I don’t even know what to write anymore – all this stuff is becoming so unbelievable – there a just not words for it anymore.
Posted by: Fran | Jul 17 2004 14:43 utc | 145
Robert Fisk on how Iraq is improving!
Iraq, According to Edgar Allen Poe -Now It’s Coffin Bombs in Baghdad
Robert Fisk On Sovereignty, Martial Law, and Continuing Violence in the New Iraq
Posted by: Fran | Jul 17 2004 15:14 utc | 146
Fran thanks for your links. One of the things that irks me about Clinton is that line he keeps peddling around about Camp David.
Manipulation of intelligence? Manipulation of intelligence? That smells like a pattern to me. It sounds so familiar.
Provocation? Provocation? Sharon’s little walk for peace on the Temple Mount? Provocations and manipulations seem to be everywhere.
Posted by: x | Jul 17 2004 15:53 utc | 147
I immediately read the FBI readying to pick up non-Arabs as the first stage of “mission creep” –to be able to pick up anyone dissenting here as they like.
More mission creep — now it’s not just immigrants, or those with expired visas, etc. but legal permanent residents they’re going to be going after. Citizens take note.
Posted by: x | Jul 17 2004 15:58 utc | 148
All that which is not mandatory is verboten (forbidden)! A slogan worthy of Machiavelli, or at least Rousseau.
Watch your backs, gentles. Keep the pikes and pitchforks and torches at the ready. 😉
Posted by: Kate_Storm | Jul 17 2004 16:12 utc | 149
LOL Kate, too true.
Our President seems to have convinced himself he’s a saint. I wonder if he discussed the rigors of self-examination and contemplation with the Pope too? rofl. Yes folks, we have indeed reached a fine state of affairs here, a real state, alright.
Posted by: x | Jul 17 2004 16:31 utc | 150
A self-proclaimed pope? Sounds like business as usual in the 15th Century … the Dark Ages never left us, or we never left them. Petty princedoms and fiefs, and rapacious empires. How the historians agreed to a term for the current age is a mystery to me. Post-modern? How?
Posted by: Kate_Storm | Jul 17 2004 16:44 utc | 151
Riggs bank sold to PNC Financial Services Group
From the Pittsburg Business Times:
On June 2 [2003], the U.S. Justice Department announced that Pittsburgh-based PNC agreed to pay $115 million to settle securities violation charges. The government said it will defer prosecution for 12 months and dismiss the complaint if PNC continues to cooperate in a continuing investigation.
The case stems from a 2001 accounting transaction by a PNC subsidiary. The subsidiary transferred about $762 million of volatile, troubled or underperforming loans and venture capital investments to three special-purpose entities created to receive these assets, removing them from PNC’s financial statements.
That led the Securities and Exchange Commission to charge that PNC overstated its 2001 full-year earnings per share by 52 percent. PNC, Downtown, restated its 2001 earnings downward by some $155 million and said it would work closely with the regulators.
There are seven banks that received the weakest RSS scores-45 or less-from industry executives. Those include National City, FleetBoston Financial, Bank One, JP Morgan Chase, KeyCorp, US Bancorp, and PNC Financial Services Group.
These banks garnered lower scores on most dimensions. It is interesting to note that all of the New York/Northeastern banks, which once dominated the U.S. banking industry, rank at or below average in terms of RSS. Citigroup and Bank of New York generate average scores, whereas FleetBoston and JP Morgan Chase rank much lower.
Commenting on PNC Financial, one analyst noted, “The bank’s management lacks leadership,” while
another analyst commented “PNC’s management has a blatant disregard for doing what is right for
shareholders.”
Posted by: fiumana bella | Jul 17 2004 18:55 utc | 152
OK, this is the truth, not like before, honestly. This time it’s definite…. so can we attack their nuclear plant, can we, huh, please?
Commission – IRAN linked to 9/11 attacks
You got that? It’s IRAN not IRAQ, maybe it was a typo that confused us before but this time it’s the real deal, trust your government!
Posted by: Nemo | Jul 17 2004 20:08 utc | 153