For all the Off Topic stuff that may undermine the flow of thoughts in other threads
Back to Main
July 12, 2004
Open Thread
Comments
via Slate.com and US NEWS& World Report, extensive Abu Ghraib documents uncovered…
In October last year, Army Capt. Donald Reese visited the Abu Ghraib prison complex near Baghdad for the first time. He had plenty of reason to be there. He had just been installed as the warden of part of the prison, and as he toured cellblock 1, he was stunned to see a bunch of naked prisoners. He would later tell Army investigators: “My first reaction was, ‘Wow, there [are] a lot of nude people here.’ ” Army intelligence officers assured him, he testified, that “nothing was illegal or wrong about it”–that, in fact, stripping the prisoners was a tried-and-true intelligence tactic used to make the prisoners uncomfortable. By his own account, Reese, a reservist and window-blinds salesman in civilian life, was ill-prepared for the job. He had never before set foot in a prison, even as a visitor, and he knew nothing of the Geneva Conventions, which specify conditions for humane treatment of enemy prisoners of war and others. “I, myself, have never been in a prison,” Reese told Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who was assigned to investigate the issue of abuses at Abu Ghraib. “So I had no experience at all as far as a warden or that type of thing.”
more
Posted by: route66 | Jul 12 2004 19:20 utc | 1
@route66
this is the first report going beyond seymore hersh i read. thanks!
CP
when did they publish that piece? I don´t remember having it seen before.
Posted by: Bernhard | Jul 12 2004 21:37 utc | 3
They did, today.
One thing that pisses me off big time is the fact that ragheads are expendable in the election of the President of the USA. If ten thousands dead ragheads can secure a Democratic victory, then so be it. Then so be it for the rethugs also.
Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 12 2004 21:45 utc | 4
siun
i am such a convinced dialectical & historical materialist that i cannot indulge myself in mysticism of any form – because in part – the faux mysticism obliterated a generation or two as effectively as heroin or metaamphetimines
but i do accept mystery az a natural & logical consequence of matérialisme
& in that – breathing & listening are at the core of my work here – even before communication – & it is incredible to note as i have that – the crisis that people absorb symbolically is articulated through breath more than through language
in the darker moments this year – i feel in my participants – a constriction in their respiration or a respiring simpl from the breast up
i work with them in groups & individually adapting physical exercises to aid their breathing
i work with that breathing to take them to their singular symbolic order & then i hope to their own meaning & to their power & flexibility
it is not unconnected for me to use a methodology from creation to aid people civically – now they are one & the same question
& in these times bush has sent us – it seems more & more necessary
still steel
(the news is daily becoming more horrifying – the americans deserve their stalingrad – militarily, tactically or morally)
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jul 12 2004 21:54 utc | 5
(the news is daily becoming more horrifying – the americans deserve their stalingrad – militarily, tactically or morally)
stalingrad was not the militarily, tactically or morally defeat that (probalbly) changed the (german) people – it was the experience of vistiting Auschwitz, the knowledge of all the deads done besides the pure military stuff.
americans deserve stalingrad? yes – and they are already experiencing it, though not recognizing it – yet. still they need an Auschwitz to understand. Where are the real pictures from Abu Graibh?
Posted by: Bernhard | Jul 12 2004 22:05 utc | 6
That attractive rainbow that rises in showers of blood.
“I more than suspect already that he is deeply conscious of being in the wrong – that he feels the blood of this war, like the blood of Abel, is crying to heaven against him. That originally having some strong motive – what, I will not stop now to give my opinion concerning – to involve the two countries in a war, and trusting to escape scrutiny, by fixing the public gaze upon the exceeding brightness of military glory- that attractive rainbow that rises in showers of blood- that serpent’s eye that charms to destroy- he plunged into it and has swept on and on till, disappointed in his calculation of the ease with which Mexico might be subdued, he now finds himself he knows not where. How like the half-insane mumbling of a fever-dream is the whole war part of his late message!… His mind, taxed beyond its power, is running hither and thither, like some tortured creature on a burning surface finding no position on which it can settle down and be at ease.”
Senator Abe Lincoln, on James K. Polk and the 1846 war with Mexico- but subsitiute “Mexico” with “Iraq” and Polk for Bush and well… nice words indeed.
Posted by: æ | Jul 12 2004 22:11 utc | 7
remembereringgiap, we certainly deserve something, but a “Stalingrad” may not be the timeliest figure for what can, and should, come down. Stalingrad was a shoot-out between two forces, in a common time and space, one of them winning and advancing, the other losing and retreating. Very gratifying to the eye and ear, not to mention one’s elementary sense of justice.
I don’t think ours will be so punctual, so visible and so gratifying. It will take a global form that I can’t easily imagine. We will not be corrected by an opposing force, so much as redirected, and even transformed, by an alteration in everyone’s circumstances.
Global warming is the readiest metaphor here, but I can’t pretend to have applied myself with any diligence to this concept. I shall do so, sooner rather than later, seeking other and better metaphors–along with you, and others more prescient than I.
Posted by: alabama | Jul 12 2004 22:13 utc | 8
i beg to differ bernhard – stalingrad was the pivitol point where the lie ran against the reality & it was the only place, fundamentally since 1933 -it was the site where ideology met reality in all its horror & glory
here they were beaten by the ‘less than human’ slavs & it was a defining moment – outside of the construct of politics
i doubt & i think the memorial in berlin reflects this & this discourse surrounding it – that there has not been an exhaustive resolution of the mass murder of innocents
in part because germany had no real desire to do so – cold war politics merged with avaricious need & the nature of imperial politics demanded that what we learnt from aushwitz – was that you could kill collectively innocent human being in a way never thought of. the french & belgians, the americans & the british built the body count to a level that neither man or politics has really done anything about
my translator, thomas harlan, a filmaker son of the nazi filmmaker veit harlan spent a great deal of his 20’s & 30’s exposing before many tribunals the facts that there was never a real attempt to destroy the nazi infrastructue especially amongst professionals but especially amongst decision makers. & these people were not ashamed of auschwitz – they were ashamed they lost
& of course alabama is correct – that no such victory welcomes the iraqi people – their political & historical self(s) has been determined by monster who live far away from this cradle of history
but in my heart – i want to see this power who has acted so brutally in its own intersts to feel the shame that is the only real measure of defeat & what has happened surprisingly that an essentially chaotic resistance has dealt many costly blows but they are incapapble alone of reducing american imperial power to the isolation it so richly deserves
still steel
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jul 12 2004 22:33 utc | 9
For Route 66 and others interested in the Abu Ghraib scandal: The Agonist has a posting/thread with links to the newly available annexes.
There’s also a story in today’s LA Times in which Senator Warner promises that the investigation is not going away.
Posted by: philippa | Jul 12 2004 22:38 utc | 10
put simply, what was learnt from auschwitz, was all the bad thing
imperial powers not five years after 1945 started using an exterminatory policy as an integral part of their political a military policy
without auschwitz – there would be no phoenix programme, there would not have been the plan condor, there would not have been the operations in africa
what althusser calls the ideological state apparatus – stayed the same in an essential way
the obvious lunatics like freisler in the judiciary – who died in a bombing & very few of the doctors were ‘punished’ in the famous ss trials that lasted until the sixties
but the real motor & the mechanism stayed in place
more importantly the moral issues have never ever beeen dealt with, properly outside of the limits of nostalgia as saul friedlander so clearly points out
in this uncomfortable way – i am suggesting that whatever happens elsewhere no matter how horrific – americans will learn to live with it – much as germans have in their history – & they will not look to the better angels of their nature for an end to the politics of criminality
still steel
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jul 12 2004 22:55 utc | 11
i want to make it clear that there is not a hint of germanophobie in what i’ve said`
i think it is the tragic flaw of ‘democracies’ that they have been able to live & use policies that have as their roots – genocide in one form or another
& no democracy has been immune – the shame can be shared
& i hope they were shamed when under the leadership of nelson mandela & bishop tutu – this fucked up state that is south africa was the first in the world to start dealing with the moral issues in the most fundamental way
that the truth & reconciliation commission worked imperfectly does not reduce the moral authority this fledgling state exerted
in doing what they did mandela & tutu & the south african people shamed 400 years of imperial power with their ability to act
still steel
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jul 12 2004 23:31 utc | 12
r-giap,
I think you are right – we await our auschwitz. I fear it has already happened – children being tortured and raped, maybe killed, to get their parents to talk, or maybe just for the sport of it. But though we won’t acknowledge it until the photos come out and the reports filter in, the awful reality of it already exists, and there is no erasing it, there’s no turning back time to undo it, there is only denial, for now.
Posted by: semper ubi | Jul 13 2004 1:35 utc | 13
Bernard is right —
Abu Ghraib is America’s Auschwitz . . .
Richard M Nixon: “I am not a crook!”
George W Bush: “I did not authorize torture!”
Posted by: ck | Jul 13 2004 3:06 utc | 14
Let’s ask it again shall we Bernhard?
Where are the real pictures from Abu Ghraib?
Their suppression continues to be an amazing story–indicating just how damning they must be.
——————
From Cloned Poster’s link:
Richard Perle stunned MPs by insisting a “clean bill of health” from UN chief weapons inspector Hans Blix would not halt America’s war machine.
Months before it began I was telling people only one thing could stop the war:
The entire male population of Iraq must walk outdoors and drop their pants. Failing that– “nothing can be done to stop the shouting.”
So Perle–a vampire who looks like he’d enjoy gnawing on the haunch of a child–really adds nothing to the mix.
Other than giving me a chance to slam him again with my words.
————-
rememberinggiap:
“it is not unconnected for me to use a methodology from creation to aid people civically – now they are one & the same question”
Yep. Breathing is about as fundamental as it gets. Listening to one’s own breath is deep and immediate therapy. That this is not well known and not school taught astounds the mind…
Posted by: koreyel | Jul 13 2004 3:56 utc | 15
The desire for hegemony seems to continue. From this mornings Guardian.
US in talks over biggest missile defence site in Europe
Posted by: Fran | Jul 13 2004 3:56 utc | 16
The American Army was created as a counter force for the next Kursk.
The M1-A1 tank and the A-10 attack aircraft were designed to destroy the Soviet Bloc armored divisions, in the killing zone of the Fulda Gap.
The Marines’ retreat from Fallujah is as close as we will get to an American Stalingrad.
For the USA, all military defeats are petite — no matter how resonant the repercussions.
Posted by: ck | Jul 13 2004 4:00 utc | 17
Sorry, if I jump around with topics, but there is a lovely article on marriage by Barbara Ehrenreich at the NYT. She is really fun to read, despite the seriousness of the topic.
Let Them Eat Wedding Cake
Well, after the wedding cake for breakfast it is time to go to work.
Posted by: Fran | Jul 13 2004 4:20 utc | 18
Quote of the Day
from the Gadflyer
“Dick Cheney is not a crook.” – Sen. Lindsay Graham (R-SC)
You can’t help but think that the instant that came out of his mouth, Graham smacked his forehead and said under his breath, “Stupid, stupid…”
Posted by: ck | Jul 13 2004 4:27 utc | 19
What is Dan Milbank of WaPo tellung us with these juicy graphs at the end of an unrelated White House pay article White House Notebook:
It seems that reporters will do anything these days to get an exclusive with President Bush. On a recent presidential trip, a reporter for U.S. News & World Report became ill after a hot and rough ride on a military helicopter. Aboard Air Force One, Bush’s doctor offered the young woman, whose Harvard education had not prepared her for such rigors, a bed in the plane’s sick bay — right next to the president’s suite.
While the writer recovered, a familiar figure in workout attire happened by to inquire about her health; later in the flight, he checked on her again.
Bush may have a testy relationship with the media these days, but you can’t fault his bedside manner.
Monica who?
Posted by: Bernhard | Jul 13 2004 6:54 utc | 20
re. Americans; stupid vs. ignorant
I’m going to have to revise my previous position; not an interaction, rather, a main effect of both variables. Or for those without stats karate:
sick, sick, sikh
Sure, I know this kind of sh*t happens all over the world; we have no monoploy on prejudice. Every now and then my defense mechanisms (= extreme cynicism) fail me utterly. What can I say?
Posted by: æ | Jul 13 2004 7:09 utc | 21
What is Dan Milbank of WaPo telling us with these juicy graphs?
I think it’s that El Arbusto is, ahem, ‘compassionate’. Just like the way he called up that poor KBR employee from Pakistan, even though he can’t seem to find time for, what, 887 ‘Merkans…
hagiography as journalsim.
But: at least my cynical defense shields are back on-line. whoo-farkin’-hoo!
Posted by: æ | Jul 13 2004 7:24 utc | 22
For those Yurpeans (and others) still awake at this ungodly hour- new post at the Bar, superlative.
I’ll have to check in tomorrow, but I want to field this one, if anyone bites:
What is class warfare? By which I mean: if there ever really was a ‘class war’, wouldn’t the impoverished mop-up, given the numerical discrepancy? Or is it the case that the upper crust has such a lock on the reins of power that there can be no class war, only a rout of the lower class by the plutocrats? discuss…
Either way, I have to say I gnaw a little at the GOP bait: I am sick unto death of the reality of the situation. One must be (relatively) loaded to seek political office here- less so at the state/local level, but nontheless. We’ll have no Debbs ever again, I fear.
Posted by: æ | Jul 13 2004 7:43 utc | 23
Just stumbled across these numbers:
Average Annual Hours Actually Worked Per Employee
Years 1980; 2003; 2003vs.80-85
Japan* 2,114; 1,828; -12.9
USA 1,798; 1,777; – 1.3
Spain 1,918; 1,745; – 5.6
Canada 1,738; 1,717; – 0.7
UK 1,706; 1,652; – 1.4
Italy 1,748; 1,523; – 4.2
Belgium* 1,569; 1,449; – 7.6
France 1,631; 1,346; -13.9
W Germany 1,669; 1,342; -17.4
Netherlands 1,581; 1,309; -14.9
Source: OECD Employment Outlook, 2003
*1980 data for Japan and Belgium are estimated from other sources
The last three are going to increase these numbers now – probaly up to 1,450 per year
Posted by: Bernhard | Jul 13 2004 13:55 utc | 25
Good article in the Guardian re the media and the war.
Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 13 2004 15:04 utc | 26
Wow! Barroso, the designated president of the European Commission, has introduced himself in remarkable fashion: “I admire the dynamism of the United States, but I detest their arrogance, and I detest their militarism.” Go, Barroso!
(Sorry, have translated from German, perhaps coming English translations will differ.)
Posted by: teuton | Jul 13 2004 15:08 utc | 27
Dr. Marc Faber renowned investment adviser from Switzerland living in Asia:
We have a righteous, intolerant and belligerent third rate intellectual who lives in a big white house, runs the world’s largest economic and military power, and who has surrounded himself by some very shady characters who are also because of their complete military incompetence, and lack of any knowledge of history and understanding of geopolitical conditions very dangerous.
Well said!
Posted by: Bernhard | Jul 13 2004 15:27 utc | 28
@Bernard:
Yes, nothing better than to have our war-illiterate American public, sniffing human flesh cooked up by napalm.
The memory stays in the nose a very long time, I’m told.
Couldn’t agree more.
Posted by: FLASHHARRY | Jul 13 2004 15:42 utc | 29
It’s a fact that the U.S. has completely, utterly and irretrievably lost the war in Iraq.
Here’s the simple test: name one publically announced policy goal that is achievable in the future.
Yup, that’s right. We lost, so let’s get out and stop making things worse.
I find it rather amazing that a very large plurality, perhaps even a majority of the so-called “anti-war” crowd is now favoring keeping U.S. troops in Iraq for the indefinite future. What ever happened to “bring the troops home”?
It appears to have morphed into some sort of twisted fantasy that we have the capacity to “make things better” before we leave.
As to why that is impossible, see the beginning of this post. Repeat as needed.
@ teuton
you are right this is WOW! I was afraid that Barroso would turn out to be a luke-warm compromise choice, but if he continues like this with other topics as well, he might turn out to be a president to my liking. I hope it is not just show. As they state in the Spiegel post, he suported the Irak invasion. Wonder what motivate him to the U-turn?
Posted by: Fran | Jul 13 2004 15:55 utc | 31
@warbaby:
In this Class Warfare Thingy, weapon-wise, is the appropriate tool a pike, billhook, or AK?
Just curious.
Have you read Joe Hoar and Dick Klass on Iraq, published as a Prada on the Potomac op ed in Oct. ’03? Utterly devasting.
Posted by: FLASHHARRY | Jul 13 2004 15:57 utc | 32
@teuton
barosso did not “detest the militarism” but “detest the unilateralism” – the error was made by the news agency (see SPIEGEL)
And I think he is a crook and hope the EU parliament will stop him.
Posted by: Bernhard | Jul 13 2004 16:21 utc | 33
@ Bernhard
I would be interessted to hear more from you, about why you consider Barosso a crook?
Posted by: Fran | Jul 13 2004 17:00 utc | 34
Thanks, Bernhard, very interesting. They changed it from “militarism” to “unilateralism”. That leaves us with the detested arrogance, though. Barroso may not be a paragon of virtue, but the tone is significant. He probably speaks only after he has made sure he will not provoke too much disagreement and/or protest in Europe. Barring the poodlish British (hey, CP, I mean the government!), I don’t see who would hand in a protest note…
Posted by: teuton | Jul 13 2004 17:10 utc | 35
And Fran, I got the impression that Bushco is by and large bringing out the European element of the Swiss. It’s a bit like ‘WE must resist…’ at the moment. Correct?
Posted by: teuton | Jul 13 2004 17:33 utc | 36
Barroso
Well main reason Iraq – in a democracy the leaders should never go to war if their costituency doesn´t want to. if they do, they are crooks – at least. Also he is Blairs selection for EU president – another reason to distaste him.
angry report through the war preparations
That cite from B today was when he was questioned in front of the green block of the EU parliament. He just did a show to get their votes.
Posted by: Bernhard | Jul 13 2004 17:58 utc | 37
@ teuton
I got the impression that Bushco is by and large bringing out the European element of the Swiss. It’s a bit like ‘WE must resist…’ at the moment. Correct?
I am not sure I understand what you mean with your comment. What do you mean by the European element of the Swiss? Well, you’re right the Swiss like to resist, but I guess it is also wanting to be safe – to check and counter-check so as not loose or pay to much. And then there is that old and often over-used story of neutrality and independence. Remember Wilhelm Tell – some Swiss still want to believe he actually existed and was not just a creation by Schiller. So the fight for independece still continues for many. I think, considering when you look at a map of Europe – Switzerland is actually the heart – this is just plain stupid.
@ Bernhard
thank you for the comment on Barroso. I was surprised by his comments. My first impression is confirmed by what you wrote. But I do like to stay fair and include new information into my opinions. Well, time will show. In a way it is frustrating that Blair has still so much influence and the rest of Europe tries to accomodate him.
Posted by: Fran | Jul 13 2004 18:19 utc | 38
Thank you for your response, Fran. I actually meant the Swiss ‘struggle for independence’ from a continent they are such an integral part of. I had the impression that the insistence on a special role had weakened a bit, but from your post I conclude that not much has changed really. E pluribus unum…
As to the influence Blair has in Europe – I am not so sure that he has really that much. Britain is a strong power in Europe and must therefore be treated with respect and caution, and all European politicians know that. BUT: the British are more and more seen as the child that doesn’t want to play. Their ‘red lines’ concerning Europe have recently clashed quite vehemently with the red lines of the continental big players. With the referenda on the ‘constitution’ and the Euro, there is a real danger that the Brits will more or less drop out of Europe, which would certainly be more to their disadvantage than to Europe’s. I think the patience with the UK is running out in the Euro political establishment, and they might start playing hardball with Blair and his successor. But of course I have been wrong on so many points over the last three years or so that my expectations may be taken as indicators how it is NOT going to play out. 🙁
Posted by: teuton | Jul 13 2004 20:57 utc | 39
Some British think their island is in the middle of the Atlantic. Well if they think so and behave so, then the European core will stop favoring them. The breaking line could be this EU to suggest phasing out British rebate, or any major issue coming up next. If they are so anti-European core Europe should let them leave in the middle of the Atlantic and just wait until their housing bubble crashes.
Posted by: Bernhard | Jul 13 2004 21:10 utc | 40
sorry… preview/post error.
but FWIW, the strikethrough markup doesn’t seem to work!
Posted by: æ | Jul 13 2004 21:26 utc | 42
But Bernhard, the housing bubble is more or less an invention of the pessimists, isn’t it? 😉
Posted by: teuton | Jul 13 2004 22:11 utc | 43
Well – that BBc article is about “buy-to-let” houses which are not the norm in the UK. Looking at the graph in that article – are price increases of 20% year-over-year not a bubble type phaenomen? How come some irrelevat multilateristical institutions think so IMF warns of UK house price bubble. 😉
Posted by: Bernhard | Jul 13 2004 22:21 utc | 44
That’s what I meant – the article is there to calm down worried houseowners and consumers which are over their ears in debt.
BTW, the Royal Bank of Scotland has started a massive campaign here in Germany encouraging Germans to behave like the Brits and spend like there was no tomorrow. The British high-street banks have obviously decided that it’s time for other countries to join in their credit-ponzi-schemes. What do you think?
Posted by: teuton | Jul 13 2004 22:27 utc | 45
@ teuton
thanks for your response. I do think we are part of Europe, however, I don’t know if the Swiss want a special role as such. I think we are just afraid to give up our political system, which we would have to, at least to some extend. For a long time I considered it as pretty archaic, yet lately I have come to appreciate it much more.
I don’t know how much you are aware of what is going on down here, but you might have heart about Blocher (former owner of the ‘Ems Werke’) from the SVP (far right, in my opinion) becoming one of the seven ‘Bundesräte’who have to rule by the principle E pluribus unum… Like many other Swiss and especially women, I was disgusted how he ellbowed his way in to this position. But, the Bundesrat being a collective of seven equal counsellors which has to govern on consensus, seems to have clipped his wings. He still tries to create storms, but they do not seem to have the power anymore as they used to when he was in the opposition. So there are checks and counter-checks in our system which seem to work. And then there is the possibilty of the Swiss people to vote an everything, and I mean everything – from taxes, to environment, to military spending, etc., etc. And that is something many people are not willing to give up, despite at times it being extremely slow. Also, already we are experiencing that we often, for some to often, have to adapt to laws from Brüssel. Personally, I can see that we would gain a lot by joining the EU, but I also can see that we would have to give up a lot too, including some of the things which so far have defined our national identity.
I hope you are right about Blair.
Posted by: Fran | Jul 14 2004 5:11 utc | 46
Another reason why the image of the US is going down the drain. When will the that much touted ‘compassion’ be shown in action and not only in words?
France accuses US of Aids blackmail
Posted by: Fran | Jul 14 2004 6:16 utc | 47
Who cares about such petty details as Aids as long as the war on Iraq was justified and good?
(And are we not all looking forward to the Butler report in the UK? It will be such a scathing indictment, by golly!)
Posted by: teuton | Jul 14 2004 10:00 utc | 48
@Teuton
Butler………. another Whitewash and that prick Blair is still smilling.
What Iraqi bloggers are saying
Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 14 2004 12:19 utc | 49
Bernhard, an idea…. A permanent Tinfoil thread…..just there or there abouts near the top of the thread.
Just thinking about Butler et al., Is there a massive double bluff game going on between Blair and the Right? Come on, Howard (a very pro-Israeli/Sharon type of person) might have been the ticket to replace a failed PM.
Is he bluffing the Neocon agenda?
Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 14 2004 19:12 utc | 50
@Fran 01:11 AM
Please keep Switzerland they way it is and out of the EU processes. It is a very successful state showing how people of different languages can live together and enjoy a quite radical democratic system. The world needs this example.
Posted by: Bernhard | Jul 14 2004 20:38 utc | 51
Bernard:
Has language translation software improved any in the last five years?
I seems that one way to broaden our group would be to get more Europeans in. Many might not be fluent enough In english to follow things.
Just a thought. And do you know?
Posted by: FLASHHARRY | Jul 14 2004 20:45 utc | 52
@flashharry
Is my spelling that bad?
Well it has improved, but only for specialist language like radiology. For general discussion a software would need to have a “world model” to understand context. People are working on it, but sofar the maximum is some few general phrase – not intense debates like here.
Most Europeans do know enough English to at least read here. To write is difficult, even when one is used to read and write extensivly in English like I am. I never get the nuances. It just sounds bad and I never should write in any US media without an editor like I sometimes do here.
Posted by: Bernhard | Jul 14 2004 21:08 utc | 53
Is my spelling that bad?
Of Course not.
I hope then, from what you say, that more
Europeans will write more here. I speak very
pidgin Spanish with my workers every day. I could
probably read not quite correct English, and get
the gist of it. It’s the ideas and the
participation that count most.
Posted by: FLASHHARRY | Jul 14 2004 21:35 utc | 54