Space for comments on this Billmon piece about libertarians and the GOP.
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July 13, 2004
Billmon: Right From Wrong
Space for comments on this Billmon piece about libertarians and the GOP.
Comments
In case someone has trouble with defining libertarians: Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 13 2004 22:33 utc | 1 I suppose this is appropriate on this thread (sorry Bernhard, if you disagree). Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 13 2004 23:01 utc | 2 That was truly amazing writing; funny, critically analytic, rapier sharp, to the point, entertaining, WOW!!! I think I need a smoke. Posted by: SME in Seattle | Jul 13 2004 23:08 utc | 3 I like that first anonymous post at 6:33 PM. It strips away whatever shred of dignity might be found in my taste for Anarchism. And though a taste for “Anarchism”–call it, rather, a “pretension to political enlightenment”–may linger for a while, the dignity of the thing is really over and done with. We’ll just have to keep toughing it out in the dark, like Sacco and Vanzetti. Posted by: alabama | Jul 13 2004 23:53 utc | 4 Alabama Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 13 2004 23:59 utc | 5 Cloned Poster, the Civil War is over–except, I suppose, on CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC, and the Fox thing. We have a few folks down here who pretend otherwise, just as a few folks in the Northeast also pretend otherwise. Posted by: alabama | Jul 14 2004 0:15 utc | 6 You know, Kerry caught hell early in the primaries for saying he thought he could win without the South. And as I recall several pundits did finally ask about why this area of the “heartland” (God, I hate that word!) is so sacred. Sure enough, if you add up the electoral votes, Kerry could win without the South (and may well have to). Posted by: SusanG | Jul 14 2004 0:24 utc | 7 SusanG, I don’t know where you live, but I’m prepared to suppose that you don’t live in the South. Not, at least, in this part of the South. If you did, you might hesitate to speak with such confidence about its “intolerance”. Posted by: alabama | Jul 14 2004 0:34 utc | 8 New Billmon post: Posted by: ck | Jul 14 2004 0:34 utc | 9 SusanG Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 14 2004 0:40 utc | 10 I’m willing to bet that the Barkeep hasn’t spent five days, or even five minutes, in the Deep South, Posted by: annie | Jul 14 2004 1:21 utc | 11 I’m willing to bet that the Barkeep hasn’t spent five days, or even five minutes, in the Deep South, or if he did, he was sleeping in a hotel with the curtains drawn at the time. Posted by: FLASHHARRY | Jul 14 2004 1:49 utc | 12 it’s in the South that the worst (in my humble opionion) of the human spirit comes through. In one word: Intolerance. Posted by: annie | Jul 14 2004 1:57 utc | 13 Annie, I stand corrected–though I’d also be interested in knowing the part of the South from which he migrated…. Posted by: alabama | Jul 14 2004 2:00 utc | 14 @Annie Posted by: FLASHHARRY | Jul 14 2004 2:08 utc | 15 @FlashHarry Posted by: ByteB | Jul 14 2004 2:16 utc | 16 ByteB, my speculations are not about the Barkeep’s “life,” they are about the Barkeep’s speculations–yes, he speculates–about the great “values debate” in our political discourse, and what the function of that “debate” in our political dynamics. I truly believe that the “debate about values” is diversionary–it takes our eye off the ball. I’ve worked this up over a series of posts recently, a couple on Tom DeLay to be found at this very site. Posted by: alabama | Jul 14 2004 2:24 utc | 17 hey, i wasn’t offended at all flashharry. coming from sf i just expected this weird breed out there, and they were weird, but so loving. alabama, my mothers family settled in a town now called lake city, sc , used to be called pages mill, named after my great aunt, its still in the family. my mom had 9 brothers and sisters, when i arrived in town i ask for ‘aunt sally ‘ at the gas station and an 4 car loads of people escorted me to her house. my maternal grandfather ” hell, i ain’t prejudice, i hire ’em” was from tennessee. Posted by: annie | Jul 14 2004 2:25 utc | 18 Please, I am not calling into account the tolerance of individuals or even regional areas in the South. Of course, there are places in the South where progressivism is strong, just as there are regions in the Northeast or California where conservatism — and intolerance — are strong. I thought I made that clear. If not, my apologies all around to the offended Southerners. Posted by: SusanG | Jul 14 2004 2:31 utc | 20 ByteB: Posted by: FLASHHARRY | Jul 14 2004 2:50 utc | 21 @alabama Posted by: ByteB | Jul 14 2004 3:13 utc | 22 I apologize to anyone whom I have offended here tonight. 2nd post has been what I have been doing for the last 25 years. 60% of my employees have come from adult and juvenile corrections in a state in the South. Rest are mostly Mexican. Posted by: FLASHHARRY | Jul 14 2004 4:02 utc | 23 Regardless of how tolerant or intolerant the South is, the politics of the Old South is Hard Right and anti-Progressive — at least, that part of the South that has given the modern GOP an electoral lock on the region. Posted by: ck | Jul 14 2004 4:05 utc | 24 @Flasharry Posted by: ByteB | Jul 14 2004 4:10 utc | 25 Suffice to say, the modern GOP long ago stopped being the Party of Lincoln — the modern GOP has become party of Jefferson Davis. Posted by: FLASHHARRY | Jul 14 2004 4:13 utc | 26 SusanG, I take your anecdote about your husband and father-in-law to be most instructive. You might say that I trust it–in the same way that readers for generations have trusted de Toqueville’s “Democracy in America”, a book which does not, to say the least, draw on the kind of statistical data you point to in your post at 10:31 PM). Posted by: alabama | Jul 14 2004 4:13 utc | 27 no apologies necessary, Flasharry. Posted by: ByteB | Jul 14 2004 4:19 utc | 28 FLASHHARRY, how do you survive in a scene like that? I’ve taken to thinking of you as a lion-tamer–the Clyde Beatty of the Chesapeake Bar Association. Posted by: alabama | Jul 14 2004 4:21 utc | 29 The Modern GOP has become masterful at playing on the emotions of anger, fear, resentment, and hate — and then, bundling together, and calling it values. Posted by: ck | Jul 14 2004 4:27 utc | 30 alabama, Posted by: SusanG | Jul 14 2004 9:00 utc | 31 SusanG, if only we could put these thoughts to work! I have a theory, not very advanced, as to why our “safety-net” has been degraded. It’s not a comforting theory, but it accords rather well with your phrase about our “reptilian brains” (in terms of their temporality, if you will). Posted by: alabama | Jul 14 2004 10:02 utc | 32 I trust that, as usual, you will kindly allow me to add a non-US point of view to your last anecdote, alabama. As you can imagine, the problems here are not that much different, if perhaps less dramatic, when it comes to the widening chasm between rich and poor. I have recently come to wonder about a breed of young economists who keep shouting about less state, more individual initiative. They seem to have completely forgotten that post-WW II, the ‘German new deal’ of the soziale Marktwirtschaft (social market economy) made sure that the many benefited from the economic boom. Without it, the career patterns of most of these free-enterprise disciples would not have been possible. But since this was in the past and is so forty-years-ago, they don’t feel the need to reconsider their propositions even on the basis of their own family’s recent history. Very reptilian, I think, but da system produces ever more of these self-appointed economic visionaries. Sorry for forcing this into a thread on US-libertarianism. Posted by: teuton | Jul 14 2004 10:18 utc | 33 This has been quite an interesting thread and I’ve been following with great interest, even though many points were so cogent and insightful I felt I could have nothing to add. Posted by: x | Jul 14 2004 12:52 utc | 34 @Teuton: Posted by: FLASHHARRY | Jul 14 2004 13:04 utc | 35 Great point, Harry. Let me just add that, having never lived in the Southern US, I found that discussion fascinating. Posted by: x | Jul 14 2004 14:15 utc | 36 PS back to Billmon’s libertarian topic, it strikes me now to wonder if part of the dismissal of the need for safety nets or certain social networks or regulation isn’t part of that pattern of dismissal by people who’ve benefitted from the New Deal as well as the Great Society and perhaps are unaware of it. As teuton pointed out, history interlinks us in ways we may not understand at all, especially if we don’t value it or hold onto it. Posted by: x | Jul 14 2004 14:22 utc | 37 Wow. That’s a lot of venom in that first comment. No wonder there’s no name attached to it. If the label Anarchist is too poisoned by such intellectual dishonesty, then perhaps social libertarian is a better reference point. It’s quite clear to me that the poster endorses the notion that the label libertarian only equates to economic or free-market libertarians. That’s taking a lot of liberties to make such a weak attempt at humour. Posted by: b real | Jul 14 2004 14:54 utc | 38 Flashharry, thanks for your reference to Thurgood Marshall. I didn’t know anything about the man and have looked up his bio. Impressive. Posted by: teuton | Jul 14 2004 15:13 utc | 39 |
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