Billmon writes:
“In case you’re wondering, Whiskey Bar isn’t going entirely out of business – at least, not yet. But the first two weeks of every quarter are…”
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July 1, 2004
Billmon: Down But Not Out
Comments
“Whiskey Bar isn’t going entirely out of business – at least, not yet”. hmmmm… Continues the tone of the previous, comment-finishing post.
The man is stressed out and sounds pretty unhappy to me. All the people who kept wondering if Billmon could keep his creative output have got their answer. He has given much, and strangely enough, I feel I have somehow abused his generosity. Timewise, he seems to have lived on credit. For all his occasional gruffiness, he is dear to me. A digital abstraction, for Christ’s sake! The ennui of the information age…
Posted by: teuton | Jul 1 2004 16:18 utc | 1
teuton:
I just have to speak up. You just hit me emotionally.
I think your post about Billmon is out of line and is the kind that I, for one, would like to not see on these pages. Your thoughts about Billmon are yours and I can respect them as your thoughts but to me your comments felt like a slam against Billmon.
If I’m correct then that is percisely the thing most of the people here would like to forgo on these pages.
I have appreciated your posts in the past. I hope I can say the same of the future.
Juannie
Posted by: Juannie | Jul 1 2004 16:59 utc | 2
The rose has to spend much time in the darkness underground and push its way through powerful pressure and obstacles before it blossoms. In its flowering it provides a shelter, a home, sustenance and, for those with eyes to see, joy, hope, inspiration and beauty. And even when it withers its fruit is beginning that underground miracle all over again.
And so it goes.
Posted by: Helpful Spook | Jul 1 2004 17:14 utc | 3
Juannie —
I thought teuton’s comments were okay — but it would probably be wise if we avoid reading too much into Billmon’s state of mind.
He has a lot on his plate, and . . . um, . . . I think I’ll take my own advice, and keep my own counsel.
In the meantime — these two new venues are pregnant with possibilities. Let’s make the most of them — a Best of the Blog’s cross post every day, with sufficient open threads to keep the regulars happy, while giving newcomers the opportunity to join the conversation.
While the 500+ comment threads were unwieldy, they had a creative vitality seldom seen in the online world.
Bottom Line — open threads can be left open, until they exhaust themselves.
my 2 cents . . .
Posted by: ck | Jul 1 2004 17:26 utc | 4
Juannie, I think you might be overreacting a little there. I can’t think of any way to read teuton’s post as being anti-Billmon: I read it as concern, not criticism, mixed with a little of the selfish annoyance I’m feeling at missing my fix of our retired bar keeper’s writing and the guilt I feel at feeling annoyed that he isn’t writing stuff.
Posted by: Colman | Jul 1 2004 17:40 utc | 5
Maybe some people find it easy to write 500 words each day, always choosing a new subject or a new slant on an old subject. Not me.
I’m inclined to think that a website is a part-time job for at least three people, and it wouldn’t surprise me if the one-person websites do not last forever.
Of course, if the person running the website shares that opinion, it is pretty easy for them to post to that effect, so I don’t feel like I am abusing them by checking for new posts on a daily basis.
I would suggest that this website link and post with a few others so that no one person (except perhaps the Moderator) feels the daily burden of the show that must go on.
And, of course, cat pictures.
Posted by: serial catowner | Jul 1 2004 18:35 utc | 7
@ serial catowner
If you’ve been good, click the link
Posted by: Santa come early | Jul 1 2004 18:42 utc | 8
juannie,
I have been away for a while, so I could not react to your post earlier. Think I’ll better respond in public.
Perhaps my phrasing was unfortunate, but you read my post 180 degrees against the author’s intention. What I wanted
to express is that I am worried about Billmon, and that his finishing of the comments-section was probably to a large degree self-defense. As somebody at the annex said, Billmon has devoted much of his energy to his blog, so it is no wonder he should need some rest. As to the gruffiness I mentioned: He is human, thank goddess.
And I do feel that it is strange that one can develop affection and care for somebody who has in one way been a few blips on the screen all the time. Yes, I know he is much more than that…
(And then, as one of my teachers would have asked: ‘What is your textual evidence for your reading?’ But no matter, it was never my intention to lash out at Billmon when I have gotten so much from the man. And I am sorry if I hit you. OTOH, your comment was not quite the dialogue I had hoped to get.)
No hard feelings, I hope?
Posted by: teuton | Jul 1 2004 21:31 utc | 9
i’d like to say what i have already sd more or less at the whisky annexe
the only way to honour our relation to billmon is to make a success of these sites – any other manner for me is a form of reification that seems to me to neither serve this community nor billmon
it is absolutely clear we would not have met if not for billmon & that is acknowledged in its full sense
but we are not in the busieness of being devotees i hope – the beauty & yes sometimes the tragedy of our collective post have been their indeterminacy but i have found such beauty in that multiplicity
that multiplicity works when everyone listens to one another – i can understand for one reason or another – perhpas billmon did not want to hear those voices
those voices are the heat for me – really – for all the problems – i think the virtues are self evident
it appears to me the management of our trajectory is difficult but even that can be resolved by clear demands on your part & an attention by the posters, especially in this moment
my relation to billmon in one way is little different from other poster – i think i have real & sometimes minimal differences with other posters but i listen in the way i listened to billmon – there is no heirarchy to my attention
so flg & alabama – i feel quite free to fuck grammar, syntax, orthography, punctuation – i burnt the style manual sometime in 1975 – it seems to me that my devoir first is to listen & then to respond honestly & with all the competence i can muster but above all & especially in this time – to be brutally honest
unfortunately i’m relatively humourless – its the patrimoine of being an old maoist but i hope that does not get in the way
i think we have to create something that is singular but that allows our mutiplicity & rest a good filter of information
we are on the way there
still steel
Posted by: remembereringiap | Jul 1 2004 21:39 utc | 10
teuton,
Another lesson for me. I read your post as sarcasm. I should have reread it 3 or 4 times before jumping to my conclusion. Obviously your comments reflected to me more of myself than they said of you.
Helpful Spook, ck, Colman thanks.
Apologies to all. I’m embarrassed. Think I’ll go smell some roses.
Juannie
Posted by: Juannie | Jul 1 2004 22:15 utc | 11
Juannie —
We are all mortified — and saddened by this disheartening turn of events.
r-giap —
a very eloquent expression of our collective hopes and fears . . .
as for the style manual — the best writers always develop their own. while the devices of grammar, spelling, and all the rest are tools for the writer — they are used for the benefit of the reader.
shorter style comment — clear and concise is easier to comprehend.
your prose has become far more accessible — i hope you feel the evolution has profited all concerned.
Posted by: ck | Jul 1 2004 22:25 utc | 12
‘What is your textual evidence for your reading?’
Dang, are German teachers all the same? Immer am Text bleiben!
To comment further on Teuton, heck, *I* live on credit timewise since months, with reading and commenting on all these blogs on top of all the rest. And I haven’t to actually make one and post daily long researched well-written and elaborate blogs. Lucky, because I already had a share in site-admin and board-monitoring; though originally, as one of many admins, I was just meant to dig up stuff for the site, I ended up doing the Bad Cop on the boards most of my free-time and after months I just stopped suddenly, and as Teuton said, it was self-preservation because the thing was eating so much of my time I was frustrated of not being able to do my original work there and I was spending precious time with basically very few free time left for anything else. So, I can relate a bit with himw, to some extent – not that I were nearly as good, in the same business as Billmon, or the site was as successful.
As ck said, the huge open threads were kind of interesting, they quickly went into various OT directions, and from what I see many people like to have a space where they can go off on a tangent. So, I think there’s a need to have a section with threads on Whiskey Bar articles, and other blogs, and other main political issues coupled with a section where people can post in a more chatty way, without having to follow a main topic; this would in fact help to focus on the topics of the threads in the political/blog section of the new “Annex”. But from what I saw it’s more or less what is planned, just restating things here.
BTW, many thanks to Bernhard for his efforts 🙂
Posted by: Clueless Joe | Jul 1 2004 22:33 utc | 13
juannie,
don’t be embarrassed. No need for that here. Just don’t tear me to pieces when I am off my rocker in the future. Has happened recently; I completely misinterpreted a comment. Come to think of it, I should still be embarrassed… Can I join you in the rose garden?
Helpful Spook: that sounded a bit like the Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám. Some of the finest English poetry. 😉
Clueless Joe: Yes, German teachers are probably always the same. I had this nagging suspicion that you are at least a Germanophile, but this comment makes sure you are an expat. The knowing tone, the sad familiarity with educational torture. Hallo Landsmann!
Posted by: teuton | Jul 1 2004 22:50 utc | 14
Sorry, Teuton, just had one of your fellows who went expat and teached German. I hope you’ll forgive us the stupid WWII allusions we made between classmates when he was too much of a pain in the ass. My German is actually quite bad, grammar being shaky and vocabulary very limited. Then I barely practise it, very rarely read it, rarely hear it and almost never speak it, so it’s not a surprise. Schade.
Posted by: Clueless Joe | Jul 1 2004 23:51 utc | 15
Gotta tell y’all that the Bar and now the annex have severely stressed me out. Since 911 I’ve been preoccupied with the thoughts of exposing and helping to dispose of the world class criminals in the WH. Until I found the Whiskey Bar I was totally frustrated because I felt that I was about the only one who could see through their lies and PR distortions & coverups and was feeling helpless because I couldn’t do it alone. Finding the Bar felt empowering to me because I recognized immediately the intelligence and humanity that coexisted here. And I knew I wasn’t totally alone. I know I’m not the only one who has gone through this because I heard & felt it expressed from both Billmon and his patrons over time as I hung out here. I also recognized that I was at best mediocre compared to the Bar patrons and that was both gratifying and intimidating. So I was careful and tried to participate only when I knew I really had something to offer. But most of my offerings proved me wrong anyway. I feel allied with most here but at the same time estranged. I feel there is something here that can really make a difference in to morrows world but fear it’s already too late. Not that I’m even thinking of giving up. But daily existence doesn’t spring from this my favorite haunt and it takes time from what and where it does. With all the high level of cerebral competence here I can’t give y’all up and don’t feel I’m on a high enough level to participate. I’m in a fuckin catch 22.
Last night I had a private on line conversation with one of the patrons. He or she may not even be at this bar any more. But I think I said something to hir (him/her) that made sense and communicated something of importance that has never been explored before here or to my knowledge anywhere. It’s may be just another of my misjudgements but I have to put it out (cathart?) anyway in case it really is important and not just another of my egoic delusions. If I’m correct and not in fantasy land again then it could be of significant importance. So here goes. Our conversation. I’ll use R for hir name. Forgive me R if this is out of line for you. But… our exchange.
R,
Very interesting and convincing post. Are you a (L)libertarian? I tend to agree but have been having some alternative thoughts lately. Not sure I can articulate them yet.
Juannie
………..
Once was a Libertarian. I was younger.
R
………….
Yeah, me too. Found Ayn Rand first. Bought her philosophy hook line and sinker (read the Fountainhead at 19 sitting on a crapper after lights out in the barracks). Now I think I understand some of the flaws in her philosophy and has turned me apathetic toward the Libertarians.
I think the gradual legitimization of Objectivism is what gives the right wing their credibility with many people.
John
…………..
I think you are on the mark that the gradual acceptance of objectivism is occurring. I think it combines with an acceptance of realtivism (as no common truth, just paradign this and that) to create a current, ugly, version of scientific materialism, where economics is Truth, economics as defined by hero individuals. Weird, the twists of history.
An old friend’s son is going to an elite graduate school and will do great there in econ. His dad is anti war from back to the 70’s. His son just gave him a copy of Atlas Shrugged to read. Heartbreaking. A generation is being lost I fear.
Are you on board for the new blog for the whiskey bar?
R
………….
R,
I believe Rand was correct in many areas. One being that philosophy is the underlying foundation for a cultures moral/ethical values. She chided her philosophical contemporaries for espousing and/or accepting altruistic premises and based her philosophy on a strictly materialistic universe, selfishness/egoism and individuality. As an atheist at the time I bought into it.
We now scientifically understand that the universe is not uniquely materialistic, that life exist only as interconnected/co-dependent systems, that individuals can’t exist in isolation and these recognitions blow the idea of strictly independent individuals out of the water. Selfishness no longer has any legs to stand on scientifically or philosophically and Objectivism comes crashing down.
I believe that to slow down and eventually reverse the “heartbreaking” trends we witness today, our philosophical allies need to address and actively work to reverse and eventually supplant the still growing objectivist mindsets. I would love to see someone take on Rand and Objectivism to start this trend. I drenched myself in Rand for years and think I have a fairly good grasp of both her ideas and their rebuttal. But I know I lack the abilities to do that effectively. My background is engineering/science with very limited command of the tools necessary to write well.
First time I’ve tried to effectively verbalize these thoughts. Thanks for listening.
I’ve been following both Jerome and Bernhard’s creations. I’m encouraged.
John
………..
John:
Well said.
R
Posted by: Juannie | Jul 2 2004 1:52 utc | 16
just dropping by to Bernhard’s quonset hut to see how it looks. like the layout better than entmoot — wider columns, more text readable between scrolls. we do need to make up our minds at some point where we’re drinking… though at least there are only two establishments to check — so far.
Cool Post, Juannie —
Ayn Rand is full of it — Objectivism is little more than Social Darwinism writ large; it’s a great racket for those at the top of the heap — but the entire march of civilization has been towards levelling the playing field, and extending opportunity to those who have none.
The Power of the State should be used to protect and empower all of those in it’s care. Even the I got mine so screw you Objectivist Conservatives aren’t half as self sufficient as they pretend to be — they just rig the system to benefit themselves, and then say they did it all on their own.
I am a Leveller — they were the first true political party, and stand as godfathers of the American Declaration of Independence.
The arguments of the Objectivists are pale and weak, in the face of human kindness and the Commonwealth of Nations.
Greed and Selfishness are cancers on the soul. Faith, hope, love, and charity — are the qualities that give meaning and purpose to life.
Posted by: ck | Jul 2 2004 2:46 utc | 18
Leveller Link —
[HTML courtesty of TheLeftCoaster.com comment page.]
DeAnander —
I like this place better, simply because of the familiar look and feel . . .
But mostly, the grey background is much easier on the eyes.
For now, this is the German Cabaret;
entmoot is the French le SpeakEasy . . .
Both are okay — for the time being . . .
Posted by: ck | Jul 2 2004 2:55 utc | 19
Yek chand be Taqlîd ghôzîdam khûd râ,
Dar khûd bûdam, zân nasazîdam khûd râ.
Nâdîdeh hamî nâm shanîdam khûd râ,
Az khûd cho borôn shudam, bédîdam khûd râ.
For years, copying other people, I tried to know myself.
From within, I couldn’t decide what to do.
Unable to see, I heard my name being called.
Then I walked outside.
Rumi
Posted by: Helpful Spook | Jul 2 2004 12:50 utc | 20
Ah, Helpful Spook – thank you for the Rumi! Before the US began the Iraq war last year, I heard an interview with Coleman Barks in which he quoted “One Altar” by Rumi. It stayed with me throughout the war as the only way to look at things: “Every war and every conflict between human beings has happened because of some disagreement about names. It’s such an unnecessary foolishness, because just beyond the arguing there’s a long table of companionship set and waiting for us to sit down.”
Posted by: francoise | Jul 2 2004 14:13 utc | 21
Bernhard…
I wasn’t aware of this site before now–thanks! FWIW, I prefer this look to Jerome’s effort, only because I prefer sustaining the visual connection to Whiskey Bar’s “branding.” I will, though, keep an eye on both.
Billmon included a Comments functionality to elicit comments, not to spawn a community, but a community emerged nonetheless. I miss that functionality more than I feel it necessary to feel part of the community…despite my admiration, and even affection, for many of its members by virtue of their words, minds, values, knowledge, and experiences.
A couple of months ago, Billmon noted (with both bemusement and, I thought, some irritation) that his Comments feature had “morphed into a chat room.” At this moment, I don’t feel a need to belong to a chat room. What I do feel a need for is a continuation of the billmon comments. Whatever achieves such, as cleanly and transparently as possible, is my preference.
My sentiments are somewhat at odds, I guess, with those of r-giap, if I read him correctly. I don’t think a strong, even semi-official, affiliation with Whiskey Bar borders on billmon-worship. It merely unburdens my favorite blogger of a major housekeeping pain in the neck. The community is a positive–though not, for me, central–byproduct of the process.
I’ve burbled too long.
Posted by: ralphbon | Jul 2 2004 21:59 utc | 22
ralphbon
have simply said honour without reification
understand that the quality of the posts whether it is here or whisky annexe are the real proof of that honouring
i’m here through billmon so there is neither intention or desire to demean
history is history
definition is definition
& yes i think the community is important – the small movements at whisky annexe with science thread, geekspeak, design etc seem to me to be a relection of the strengths of this community
but let me be clear on one point i am not, have never been nor desitre to be an evangalist of any kind whatsoever in any form at any level
it seems what we’re here for is to filter & refine ideas
that is all
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jul 2 2004 22:12 utc | 23
R-giap —
I should say that the unusually high quality of the comments (and commenters) on Whiskey Bar was a key part of the blog’s value. I’m grateful for all efforts to sustain that value, however else the process evolves.
Posted by: ralphbon | Jul 2 2004 22:25 utc | 24