The Whiskey Bar Bartender on Florida voting procedures. Your comments?
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July 15, 2004
Billmon: Caught Jeb Handed
Comments
Why is it so difficult to make crosses on paper ballots and to count these? What is the rational of using high tech on a low tech problem if not easier fraudability? Why shouldn´t any ex-felon, who has done his time, be allowed to fulfill his citizen duty to vote? Thanks for any pointers to answers to these questions.
Posted by: Bernhard | Jul 15 2004 8:41 utc | 1
@ Bernhard
thanks, you are asking the questions I have been wondering about too. Those voting problems in the US, would be understandable with Mugabe in Zimbabwe or under Saddam, but not in a country that insists on being the ‘greatest’ democracy in the world.
Posted by: Fran | Jul 15 2004 10:00 utc | 2
My question.
Why do Americans put up with it?
Are they too “comfortable” to care about anything but themselves?
Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 15 2004 10:02 utc | 3
Ahhh, if only it were that easy. Most Americans don’t have a clue what’s going on in their government. And why should they? The news media serves only to perpetuate the administration line, to obfuscate the issues, and to lay little red herrings in the form of Lacy and Kobe, in our paths. I think the main difference between the disinformation tactics used here and those used in say, the old Soviet Union, is that there, the people generally realized that what they were being fed was propaganda and tended to discount all of it. Here, we are still under the sad illusion that we have a free media, and more pathetically, a media that actually has the public’s best interests at heart. So we tend to trust what we hear on the TV news, no matter how outrageous, how contrary to commonly-known facts.
We haven’t really developed that innate distrust and cynicism towards our government and the media. Americans still believe we have a government “for the people, by the people and of the people.” Like little lambs to the slaughter.
On Tuesday 9/11, as I sat outside under the bright blue late summer sky, I wondered what the end of the day would bring. More attacks? Another world war? I tried to mentally prepare myself for…what exactly? What I didn’t prepare myself for was the possibility that my own government would become the enemy. That realization took a little more time.
Posted by: semper ubi | Jul 15 2004 10:56 utc | 4
That’s it, semper ubi.
It has been one long nightmare. We may count ourselves fortunate in one thing. Our current government’s hubris has allowed them to expose so many things that they might have hidden. I get so sick of hearing about terrorists. They are so NOT the problem of the people in this country. At the end of the day the two things that matter the most are the media and the black boxes.
I keep waiting to hear if there is an alternative to the voting machines. Are we not allowed to request absentee ballots if we choose? I did this once when I was going to be in Colorado during an election and it was easy.
Posted by: beq | Jul 15 2004 11:22 utc | 5
If you want to *do* something, time is running out. Click here to contact your representatives and call on them to support Voter Verified Paper Ballots. There are only two weeks until Congress takes it’s summer recess. You can locate your Senators and Representatives and urge them to support #S 2437 (Voting Integrity and Verification Act) and #HR 2239 (Voter Confidence and Increaded Accessibility Act) respectively. Do it.
Posted by: beq | Jul 15 2004 12:28 utc | 6
:p make that “Voter Confidence and Increased Accessibility Act”, of course.
Posted by: beq | Jul 15 2004 12:59 utc | 7
much of Jeb!’s handiwork is kept off the radar screen due to a complicit media network down here who choose not to rock the boat. One notable exception has been the Palm Beach Post, their reps were recently uninvited to an annual media “chat with the Governor”. There is an interesting and developing land grab going on in Palm Beach county revolving around the Scripps Institute opening a branch down here, there is a billion dollar price tag on the project which Jeb! has called bigger than the invention of air conditioning to Florida. Lot’s of the well-connected stand to gain royally while the citizens of the area watch a pristine natural environment bordering the everglades get turned into a parking lot…ostensibly in the name of science but more likely the almighty dollar…
This is the same governor who tried to quietly privatize Florida’s most precious commodity, water, by selling the rights to an Enron affiliate a few years back…thank God Enron didn’t succeed in staying alive or there would be a gas pump like meter on my kitchen tap…
Posted by: route66 | Jul 15 2004 13:06 utc | 8
Absentee ballots are the way to go. Request yours today. Most voters don’t know how the election system works or has been set up. Or that quietly much of the process has been privatized.
Here are some resources:
BlackBoxvoting.org
VerifiedVoting.org
to help get a change started something like this will probably be needed Vote.org
Posted by: sukabi | Jul 15 2004 14:13 utc | 9
Sufficient unto the day is the republican evil thereof…
Billmon’s excellent post focuses on the racial gerrymandering of the felon list.
If focus instead had been on the black box sideshow, he might have bolded the word “some” in this Times quote:
A new state rule excludes the machines from manual recounts, and the integrity of the machines was questioned after a problem was discovered in the audit process of some of them.
Some of them. Not all, as the next quote makes apparent:
The [Miami-Dade Election Reform Coalition] asked Ms. Hood’s office last month to allow an independent review of the touch-screen machines now used by 15 of 67 counties, including Miami-Dade, Broward and Palm Beach. The office said that only counties were authorized to seek such audits, and told reporters that the request was an effort to undermine voter confidence.
We really need a new entry in the dictionary: republican logic.
To audit the machines would undermine voter confidence?
Uhhh…right. And up is down. War is peace. Freedom is obedience.
These people really are the enemies of common sense. For all their talk of values, where is their sense of shame?
——
[Aside:
Dear Mr. President,
I think you may have misunderestimated a “sense of shame” as the fundamental necessity of civilization.]
Posted by: koreyel | Jul 15 2004 14:56 utc | 10
Greg Palast is testifying before the US Civil Rights Commission on the subject of the Florida Voter Purge and other related issues. C-Span will broadcast live at 11 AM.
Posted by: ck | Jul 15 2004 15:03 utc | 11
Let me just add links to the following organizations: Sign up and do something now, and on Nov. 2
http://www.blackboxvoting.org
coalition4visibleballots.
electionline.org
verifiedvoting.org
votewatch.us
Reference for information:
Help America Vote Act
I will be taking E-day off from work to do whatever I can to watch out for monkey business or inept stupid mistakes in my county. Vote early, absentee, by mail, return receipt.
Posted by: tom 47 | Jul 15 2004 15:13 utc | 12
beq and sukabi: you both beat me to some of the liks. Oh, well, belt and suspenders (as people her in TX say)…
Posted by: tom 47 | Jul 15 2004 15:16 utc | 13
beq and sukabi: you both beat me to some of the links. Oh, well, belt and suspenders (as people her in TX say)…
Posted by: tom 47 | Jul 15 2004 15:16 utc | 14
Why shouldn´t any ex-felon, who has done his time, be allowed to fulfill his citizen duty to vote?
In my mind they should, because I believe that once you’ve paid your debt to society you should be able to actually rejoin society and participate in decisions that affect your life.
A lot of conservatives seem to think that once a citizen has committed a felony that they’re unable to cast an untainted vote. Can’t have a drug offender casting a vote for a legislator that will be working on drug legislation now can we? conflict of interest and all that.
It makes a mockery of the whole concept of rehabilitation, of course, and ignores the fact that we all have conflicts of interests when we vote.
Posted by: fourlegsgood | Jul 15 2004 15:17 utc | 15
@ sukabi
I’d like your opinion since you have also heard that absentee ballots are a way around the touch screen issue. If your precinct uses the punchcards as mine has lo, these 20 some years that I have been going to the same polling place, would it be better to stick with the cards (since you can see the hole and it’s relationship to the ballot) or apply for absentee?? I don’t want to take any chances this time around, you know?
Posted by: beq | Jul 15 2004 15:23 utc | 16
@ tom 47
I made my calls this morning to my senators and representative. It scares me to death to do it but it feels so good and righteous afterwards!!!
Posted by: beq | Jul 15 2004 15:26 utc | 17
the articles failed to mention how large the list would have been had those hispanic felons been included. perhaps eliminating that list altogether is less a liability to the rethugs than adding the portion of the 1 in 5 population.
Posted by: annie | Jul 15 2004 17:02 utc | 18
@beq
My thoughts on this are to make your own traceable paper trail.
There has been argument in the past against absentee ballots that they are prone to tampering, but with what has come out and continues to come out with regards to the e-voting machines and the companies that produce them my money and vote is with the absentee ballot.
Just as the “hanging chad” issue was a red herring in the 2000 election to keep all eyes off the e-vote component that played a large part in the Florida fiasco, the “absentee ballots can be tampered with” is also a red-herring.
What I plan to do with regards to my own absentee ballot is as follows:
1. Acquire absentee ballot.
2. Vote early.
3. Return ballot via certified mail, return receipt requested.
What this does is use the post office as the conduit to return your ballot to the election official in your precinct. You also have a signature of who receives your ballot. You have a traceable trail with a name.
There are no guarantees that your ballot will be counted with any of the systems in place today, but at least with the above procedure you have a name and a way to trace the ballot thru the system. And someone that will be accountable for where it ended up after it was received.
That’s my 2 cents.
Posted by: sukabi | Jul 15 2004 17:12 utc | 19
@ sukabi
Sucks, doesn’t it?
I’m going to take your advice. I’m in a red district of a red state and that is the only reason I don’t feel particularly vulnerable but I hope anyone with serious doubts follows your example. Thanks.
Posted by: beq | Jul 15 2004 17:25 utc | 20
Another comment to add to my above post. Most if not all polling places count on volunteers to run the voting on the day of the election. Most of the volunteers are not trained and do not know all the ins and outs of the voting machines, let alone what to do if you are inexplicably not showing up on their lists. Most of what goes on is innocent ignorance, but leads and contributes to the confusion that usually takes place at the polls.
There is also, with the introduction of the e-voting machines, the component of voting machine company operatives messing with and being the only people allowed into vote tabulation rooms. (See discussion boards at VerifiedVoting.org and BlackBoxVoting.org and other links listed in this post for more info on the access the vote machine companies have to your vote.)
It’s my opinion that most of the crap that takes place takes place at the polls, from intimidation of minority voters to outright fraud.
I plan on avoiding the polls and vote from the comfort of my own home.
Posted by: sukabi | Jul 15 2004 17:28 utc | 21
The disorganisation and endless bureaucratic snarls and snafus (voter’s lists, terrorist lists, FAA site, unemployment statitistics, deaths as registered to social security, medical research, flight records, FDA findings, etc.) is willfull.
While supposedly upholding the ‘rule of law’ and ‘having clear regulations’ and ‘proper Gvmt. agencies and information’ everything is so confused that ordinary citizens can no longer find, much less trust, the information collected or held by the Gvmt. Citizens are simply being deprived of information that should be free for them (in view of the fact that they pay for it to be reliable and available.)
Not having free elections starts exactly with this kind of sh*t. Duh, well there’s a list .. yeah of people who can’t vote .. Nah, the list is secret .. Oops, well here is the list .. yikes, the list is the wrong list.. so we will change the list.. Now there is a new list .. No you can’t appeal re. the list .. etc, etc. If the good people of Florida don’t mind this kind of obfuscation and chicanery and don’t protest, their voting is useless, an empty act.
Posted by: Blackie | Jul 15 2004 18:03 utc | 22
@sukabi
Thanks, I am going to follow your suggestions, as like the esteemed Billmon, I live in PA
Posted by: NEPAJim | Jul 15 2004 18:35 utc | 23
some good news
Florida Must Help Prisoners Regain Vote, Court Says
Florida jailers must give felons the applications they need to get their voting rights back before releasing them from prison, a court ruled on Wednesday in the latest election-year battle over Florida voting rules.
Posted by: Bernhard | Jul 15 2004 21:21 utc | 24
@ Bernhard
i’ve asked many yanks why the paper, pencil, mark ‘x’ thing isn’t done. never received a reasonable answer. US elections are worse than most 3rd world countries, many who are barely considered democracies. i remember comments on the unfairness of the last election by some UN reps.
Posted by: lenin’s ghost | Jul 15 2004 23:47 utc | 25
adjusting my tin foil hat after reading Madsen’s post about CA the other day…
maybe it would be a good thing for as many dems as possible to vote via mail before election day. I don’t know if CA allows you to vote absentee if you’re in the area on election day, however.
but if you do vote absentee/mail, you are also free to work polls in places that could use some help.
if you look at the map the NYTimes hard copy has of the places that use optical scan vs. diebold, the dade county area (a dem stronghold) is the biggest area with the paper trail-less voting machines.
Previously, as Greg Palast noted, the rich counties had optical scan machines that would allow errors to be corrected while poor areas had machines that simply took problematic ballots and so people didn’t know if their votes were counted or not before they left the polling booth.
In the article, some republican said the only reason for a paper trail was to make sure overvotes and undervotes could be checked…which would no longer be a problem with the computer machines.
well, no. the reason for a papertrail is because Jeb and Katherine are such utter whores and enemies of democracy that they cannot be trusted not to rig votes.
the UN should really be in FL to monitor that state’s elections, considering what happened before. Jeb should be slapped in the face for his actions…actually, voter fraud…hmmmm, isn’t that a crime?
oh, I forgot, he’s a Bush and they can get away with the rape of children, even, because they’re rich.
I know this is wrong, but everyday I pray that every member of the Bush family would drop dead. The entire world would be better off.
Posted by: fauxreal | Jul 16 2004 1:13 utc | 26
I worked on several political campaigns when I lived in a large city in CT I saw a lot of problems with voting – in fact, that was what got me involved: a neighbor who had lived in our ward for her whole life and whose family was very involved with the local democratic party had volunteered to help with the voter lists. Each party would send out folks to go door to door to verify their voters (correct address, etc) and would also offer to register anyone who was not registered to vote in that ward – she was told to skip certain houses as “not worth it.” She discovered that those houses were where black families lived – and she quit the democratic party and ran as a repub for state senate. She asked me to check the polling places in our neighborhood and I discovered all sorts of creative methods to rig the votes – leaving names off the ballot, shifting the names out of alignment with the levers so the vote did not count… on and on.
But it was also a given that absentee ballots were where the real action was since they are counted by hand by the election officials – ideally with reps from both parties watching the count. Often, local pols will offer to *help* elderly or ill folks fill in their absentees and a *good* absentee effort can easily swing an election by bringing in lots of votes – not always honestly.
Since there are so many ways to mess with the process, I’d suggest one great thing to do is call your local registrar of voters and find out who is coordinating poll workers for the dems – then call then and ask if they need a worker. You get paid to do this – and you get to watch from the inside how the process is going – and have the right to object or demand a judge be called, etc. Parties often have trouble getting enough poll workers so they’ll be happy to get your call – and you get paid for the day.
Overall, helping on election day is the best thing you can do – either at the polls or in get out the vote efforts – there’s always a need for another person to drive folks to the polls or call and remind folks to vote, etc.
I now live in a very small town in NH where we mark paper ballots that are then scanned to give a fast count – but the paper ballots are saved just in case.
Bernhard: machines are used because in many voting precincts, the number of people voting is immense and it would take ages to hand count the paper ballots. If we were willing to wait several days to complete the count, it could all be paper but for speedier results, some form of machine is really necessary. I also think that the machines were seen, until very recently, as less liable to fraud than the paper ones.
On the felons getting voting rights back – apparently Florida (not sure about other states) technically requires the felon to petition for reinstatement of voting rights and the petition needs to be heard in person by a commission which includes the governor and only meets 4x a year. Prior to the 2000 election, this requirement was mostly ignored and ex-felons voted with no problem – they also voted in the local elections after 2000 but when the lists were examined in FL it was discovered that a number of people who *had* gone through the petition process and were reinstated still were on the list – and there were enormous problems with voters with similar names, etc.
In the end, fraud is always possible – and while I think the Diebold deal is clearly fishy, there are tons of ways to fix a vote so the best assurance is to get concerned folks to work the polls and keep their eyes open.
Posted by: Siun | Jul 16 2004 1:42 utc | 27
Who might be more ‘electronics’ literate’?
Nascar Dads or Soccer Moms.
Think about it.
Posted by: pb | Jul 16 2004 3:46 utc | 28
Who might be more ‘electronics’ literate’?
Nascar Dads or Soccer Moms.
geeks like us….
Posted by: sukabi | Jul 16 2004 7:42 utc | 29
Rep. Corrine Brown Censured by U.S. Congress For Saying 2000 Election Was Stolen; Serious Free Speech Issue
Her speech on the House floor came about because of a letter House members sent to the UN to request monitors for the fall election. She was shouted down and remarks stricken from the record. There are several links to how the story was portrayed in the press.
There are also links, addresses, contact info for activism.
Posted by: sukabi | Jul 16 2004 16:07 utc | 30
What is Michael Moore’s next project? That boy needs to be working every day.
Posted by: beq | Jul 16 2004 18:22 utc | 31
PB – as a Nascar Mom, I do just fine with chips and bits … now a soccer ball will trip me up anytime!
Posted by: Siun | Jul 17 2004 1:05 utc | 32
beq,
I heard rumors that Moore was going to take on (a) the health care system; or (b) the corporate media as his next project.
Posted by: SusanG | Jul 17 2004 2:01 utc | 33
Donate to Corrine Brown.
How often does a politician you support actually fight for democracy? I gave today, and it feels better than any donation I’ve ever made before.
Posted by: Citizen | Jul 17 2004 5:38 utc | 34
@Siun
machines are used because in many voting precincts, the number of people voting is immense and it would take ages to hand count the paper ballots.
Germany has 80 million people. The ballots are on paper and counted by hand. It takes about 2 hours in 50% of the counties to have them counted twice. It takes about 4 hours for all counties to have official numbers out. Even if there are multiple elections on one day (local + federal) the maximum is 6 hours for all results, double counted, including absentee ballots, certified and watched by reps from all parties nationwide. And of course voting is allways on Sundays.
It has nothing to do with numbers or efficiency. The US could easily do paper ballots.
Posted by: Bernhard | Jul 17 2004 6:34 utc | 35
I think I also read somewhere that Canada votes via paper ballots… Couple of days to count all of them at most.
Posted by: sukabi | Jul 17 2004 6:37 utc | 36
Bernhard: I know that with machines in New Haven, CT it took an hour or two to get all the machine counts in … but counting the paper absentee ballots often went into the next day or so … it may be that we have organized into much larger voting precincts than you use in Germany … I’m not sure and it may well be that we could do paper as efficiently … nowadays I live in New Hampshire and in my very little town we use the scan machines with paper backup and the last vote, which was for a set of local zoning issues had folks lined up for at least an hour – and we only have about 6,000 voters! It was all kinda fun but very inefficient.
I’d be happy with paper … but then I also love living in a state where we still have town meeting and spend a day each spring arguing out all the nuances of our town’s budget and stuff in person. It’s a much better way to do democracy.
Posted by: Siun | Jul 17 2004 6:50 utc | 37