Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 09, 2018

The Strategic Aspect Of Bashing China's Re-education of Uyghurs

The New York Times reports on China's re-education program for Uygurs in Xinjiang, who are in danger for falling to Islamist extremism. The report is part of a larger U.S. campaign to instrumentalize the issue as a pressure point against China. It is a strategic issue for both sides.

The lede:

HOTAN, China — On the edge of a desert in far western China, an imposing building sits behind a fence topped with barbed wire. Large red characters on the facade urge people to learn Chinese, study law and acquire job skills. Guards make clear that visitors are not welcome.

Inside, hundreds of ethnic Uighur Muslims spend their days in a high-pressure indoctrination program, where they are forced to listen to lectures, sing hymns praising the Chinese Communist Party and write “self-criticism” essays, according to detainees who have been released.

The goal is to remove any devotion to Islam.

There are rumors that up to a million people are moved through such programs. That estimate is based on only 8 vague interviews with locals. The real number is likely in the lower thousands. There is no evidence that any serious harm is done to them.

The NYT report includes this gem of Orientalism:

One official directive warns people to look for 75 signs of “religious extremism,” including behavior that would be considered unremarkable in other countries: growing a beard as a young man, praying in public places outside mosques or even abruptly trying to give up smoking or drinking.

The writers of the New York Times seem to have little knowledge of their own city. In 2007 the New York Police Department published a study on Islamist radicalization that remarked on exactly those points:

As these individuals adopt Salafism, typical signatures include:
  • Becoming alienated from one’s former life; affiliating with like-minded individuals
  • Joining or forming a group of like-minded individuals in a quest to strengthen one’s dedication to Salafi Islam
  • Giving up cigarettes, drinking, gambling and urban hip-hop gangster clothes.
  • Wearing traditional Islamic clothing, growing a beard
  • Becoming involved in social activism and community issues

The Chinese government probably copied its list of signs of religious radicalization from the NYPD and other 'western' sources. A French law prohibits public praying in the street. Other European states enacted laws against the wearing of certain religious attire. The Chinese do not lead in such analysis, they follow 'western' examples.

The re-education program became necessary after religious and even ethnic radicalization in Xinjiang became a real problem for the local population and the government. Deep down the NYT acknowledges this:

[Hotan, a] city of 390,000 underwent a Muslim revival about a decade ago. Most Uighurs have adhered to relatively relaxed forms of Sunni Islam, and a significant number are secular. But budding prosperity and growing interaction with the Middle East fueled interest in stricter Islamic traditions. Men grew long beards, while women wore hijabs that were not a part of traditional Uighur dress.

Now the beards and hijabs are gone, and posters warn against them. Mosques appear poorly attended; ...

The real wake up came only after and riots and acts of terrorism:

The government shifted to harsher policies in 2009 after protests in Xinjiang’s capital, Urumqi, spiraled into rioting and left nearly 200 people dead.

But there is more behind this than the extinction of a local insurgency. The NYT report misses the geopolitical point of the endeavor.

China is developing new rail and road connection throughout Eurasia as part of its strategic One Belt One Road initiative.


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Xinjiang province is larger than Great Britain, France, Spain, and Germany combined. It is a mostly uninhabitable landscape of mountainous and desert terrain with a tiny population of some 24 million of which only 45% are Muslim Uyghurs of Turkic ethnicity. It would be rather unimportant outer province for China were it not at the core of the new Silk road connections.


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It is a vulnerable point. An established insurgency in the area could seriously interrupt the new strategic communication lines.

Chinese strategists believe that the U.S., with the help of its Turkish, Saudi and Pakistani friends, was and is behind the Islamic and ethnic  radicalization of the Turkic population in the province. It is not by chance that Turkey transferred Uyghur Jihadis from Xinjiang via Thailand to Syria to hone their fighting abilities. That the New York Times publishes about the Xinjiang re-education project, and also offers the report in Mandarin, will only confirm that suspicion. China is determined to end such interference.

The re-education or indoctrination program for people suspected of following an Islamist or national-ethnic trend is only one long term part of a security initiative that comes with intense surveillance and police control. The other part is economic development. Large infrastructure investments in Xinjiang create new options for a formerly rural or nomadic population.

But people do not live by bread alone. It is doubtful that Turkic and Muslim identity of Uyghurs can be exterminated by re-education. It will be necessary to adopt it in some pacified form that can integrate itself into the larger ideological construct of the Chinese state.

Posted by b on September 9, 2018 at 12:49 PM | Permalink

Comments
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I linked to an article about 3 weeks ago that detailed what China's done/doing to deal with to source of the unrest--Takfiri promoting madrasahs. Han Chinese and Muslims have co-existed for centuries with little friction until the Outlaw US Empire sought to radicalize ethnic minorities everywhere so as to destabilize governments. IMO, Russia has provided China with advice based on its experiences, which helped China make the proper adjustments to its minorities policies.

Most Eurasian nations have suffered some form of attack on their nature by the Outlaw US Empire since WW2 and are wise to its deceits. In most Eurasian international fora where the Empire's still a member, solidarity now exists to the point where Machiavellian attempts by the Empire no longer work--ASEAN/EAEU cooperation is one excellent example. Sure, it still has a few strings it can pull, but those are atrophying and will soon cease to exist.

The Outlaw US Empire has lost its quest to dominate Eurasia but it has yet to accept that fact and retreat.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 9, 2018 1:48:58 PM | 1

thanks b.. china is right to be concerned given your overview here...

there are different variations on islam... unfortunately the brand that ksa and turkey have packaged for export to syria ain't pretty and gives islam a very bad name.. i am not as sure about pakistan, other then to note how the madrassas set up in pakistan for the longest time have been an export from ksa as well.. pakistan is poor, corrupt and has happily taken the financial support ksa/uae have offered in exchange for this indoctrination program they export..

on the other hand, in the usa's attempt to destabilize other countries, they have used ksa and to a lesser extent - the other countries.. at present the usa seems to be in a bad mood towards pakistan..

Posted by: james | Sep 9, 2018 1:50:41 PM | 2

I know it shouldn't have but this Uygur manipulation story reminded me of the story about "Iraqi protestors" torching the Iranian Embassy in Basra. When I first heard it I thought "Uh-oh! Who's fooling who(m)?"

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 9, 2018 2:07:25 PM | 3

james @2--

Pakistan's new PM Khan's goal is to cleanse his nation of Takfiri preaching clerics and to promote Muhammad's (PBUH) actual message and goals, which is quite similar to the Chinese strategy--don't stigmatize Islam while ridding the nation of those using it for vile reasons that have nothing to do with Islam's message. Yes, Islam can be revolutionary as with Iran's example, but what was its target during that revolt? Injustice, Imperialism and Corruption.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 9, 2018 2:25:07 PM | 4

"Han Chinese and Muslims have co-existed for centuries with little friction until the Outlaw US Empire sought to radicalize ethnic minorities everywhere so as to destabilize governments."

I'm afraid that's living in dreamland. There's a long history of conflict. This in Xinjiang is the same as Tibet. The central Han government imposing its authority over the periphery. The Dungan Revolt (1862–77) (wiki) involved the massacre of large numbers of Muslims in central China.

Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 9, 2018 2:51:00 PM | 5

It is a mistake to underestimate Han-Chinese racism and the totalitarian Leninist-Communist features of the government of the Boys in Beijing [and don't neglect Han-genderismm] is creating its own problems by maltreating those they don't like for racial and religious and political reasons. The BIBs are creating a big problem out of a little problem and creating a playground for the failing US empire. The Han Communists are pursuing policies that have aspects of genocide in the sense of wanting to exterminate a culture if not necessarily murder it.

Posted by: StephenLaudig | Sep 9, 2018 3:06:56 PM | 6

@4 karlof1... in the past few weeks i finished reading imran khans book pakistan.. i came away liking the guy and admire the fact he has won the pakistan election... i wish him all the best in his endeavors as you've articulated here.. the book was written in 2011 prior to his win a month ago..

@5 laguerre.. thanks for that interesting and informative perspective..

Posted by: james | Sep 9, 2018 3:19:56 PM | 7

if china strengthened its ties with Iran. It would surely reflectly positevely on the muslim community in china

Posted by: occidentosis | Sep 9, 2018 3:50:58 PM | 8

Laguerre @5--

Yeah, all part of the UK Empire's attempt to destabilize China at that time, Opium Wars and all that.

occidentosis @8--

Do you think China isn't strengthening its ties with Iran? You are aware that China's been very up front about Iranian importance to its BRI, yes?

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 9, 2018 4:04:16 PM | 9

The US can bomb cities of Muslim origin into “Dresden” style destruction, to eradicate “extremists, with it’s left hand. But it extends it’s right hand to help “extremists” it labels as “rebels with a just cause” to undermine one who it considers a national security concern. The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

Posted by: Jose Garcia | Sep 9, 2018 4:10:23 PM | 10

The integration of Eurasia by energy conduits, high-speed maglev and port-connections
is a preeminent feature of the post-Imperial USA-City of London ecomomics that is borning.

The continuous "brushfire wars" since WW2 in this light seem to be spoiling actions aimed
at human progress and the model of sovereign nation-state interdependence and cooperation.

Posted by: Guerrero | Sep 9, 2018 4:13:47 PM | 11

Very astute tweet captured by b. Yet another to add to my ever lengthening Twitter list. Applauding chinahand's reply:

"looking forward to the NYT's rollout of "Israel imprisons 1.9 million Muslims in Gaza concentration camp" coverage."

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 9, 2018 4:32:47 PM | 12

@karlof1
I meant culturally strengthen.
If you think about it the main reason the Uighur became muslims was because of the millennia old commerce between china and mideast since they live like b mentionned in the strategic gates linking south west asia and china.
And thats not even mentionning the trading history Between persia and china. I reckon easily 5000 years give or take some centuries.
Since we all know that Iran's shia doctrine is the antithesis of wahabism, China should encourage more chinese muslims to study in Iran's seminaries to strengthen moderate islam back home and present an alternative to the easily influenced minds

Posted by: occidentosis | Sep 9, 2018 4:49:05 PM | 13

occidentosis @13--

Thanks for your reply! The article I referred to at thread-top that I unfortunately cannot find the link for mentioned such collaboration. Yes, the links between Persia and China are indeed ancient, as are the Iranian links to Russian ethnicity and culture. Funny that Russia is the newbie when compared to them.

I found this Ramin Mazaheri essay from his 11 part series on Iran greatly helps to explain the source of the Shia/Sunni divide while also helping the Islamic novice learn the core of Islam's message without reading The Quran (My apologies if you're well versed in the subject).

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 9, 2018 5:33:03 PM | 14

Xinjiang has become important to China's Belt and Road initiative because it is the only route towards Europe that doesn't cross Russia, or the US controlled Pacific and Indian ocean.

Securing the trade routes from the whim of the Russians and the Americans is vital for China's future.

Dealing with the Uyghurs will not be an easy task. They are influenced by Turkey. They are a turkic people, and speak a dialect of the turkish language.

China is mainly combating this problem by resettling millions of Han Chinese into Xinjiang, changing the demographics of the area, encouraging mixed marriages and bringing wealth to a formerly poor province.

Posted by: redrooster | Sep 9, 2018 6:04:29 PM | 15

In America we call indoctrination .... Main Stream Media minus the fence. Do not need a fence, our ignorance is sufficient.

Posted by: ger | Sep 9, 2018 6:37:08 PM | 16

You can go to http://www.chinaversusa.com and use the Tag Cloud for Xinjiang, Uyghurs, Terrorism, et al and get a plethora of articles over the last six years or so. It's a good resource on many topics related to China vs US.

What happened was Xinjiang went from peaceful coexistence to bloody massacres by Uyghurs.
The police weren't even armed. In fact, in many police stations, they used women to interface with the Uyghur populations.
Then some terrorists, radicalized by AQ, killed them, slaughtering with machete long knives.

Gradually, bombs were used by terrorists.

Then they hit in Kunming, Beijing, as well as the capital of Xinjiang Urumqi. One attack killed 79 people.
And the targets were always innocent Hans.

Whatever is going down by Beijing in Xinjiang is very focused because the majority of Uyghurs are enjoying a growing economy and good times. They have a long history of peaceful development. But a faction have been radicalized.

The ETIM is the core organization of terror-idealization. East Turkestan Islamic Movement, newly named TIP, Turkestan Islamic Movement. They are based in Pakistan.

The CIA backed Uyghur group is called the World Uyghur Congress, led by a woman, Rebiya Kadeer, who happened to become a billionair while doing business in Xinjiang during the boom years of China. So when you hear the Chinese are real bastards to Uyghurs, factor in how the leader of the group paying for the terrorists and doing CIA destabilization projects became a billionaire.

Real terrorism has been suffered for ten years by these crazies. China has every right to "re-educate" those found to be under the influence of AQ, ISIS and CIA manipulation.

China should have come to Syria and help finish off the 5000 Uyghurs in Idlib. Erdogan will try to get them out and send them on to South Asia or Central Asia.

Posted by: Red Ryder | Sep 9, 2018 7:59:12 PM | 17

Found this article on a Pakistani website by a writer with a Pakistani Air Force background who focuses on current affairs and who has been visiting Urumqi (capital of XInjiang) over the past four decades apparently so he is in a position to observe (even if superficially) the changes that Beijing has brought to Xinjiang and Urumqi in particular.

S M Hali, "How Xi Jinping tackled radicalism in Xinjiang"
https://dailytimes.com.pk/238763/how-xi-jinping-tackled-radicalism-in-xinjiang/

Even if you think the author has been brainwashed, at least read the article and decide for yourselves whether some or most of what the Chinese authorities are doing might be effective in the long term.

Posted by: Jen | Sep 9, 2018 8:09:52 PM | 18

I would hope that the NYPD was condemned for labeling such mundane lifestyle changes as giving up drinking and gambling and growing a beard a sign of "radicalization". This article is not an argument that the indoctrination program is as acceptable as Western restrictions on Islam and religion. It's an argument that these NYPD guidelines, the French law against praying in the street and the laws prohibiting religious attire should be just as criticized as unjust and the indoctrination program.

Or maybe to give Muslim immigrants a means to get past a Muslim ban, the Trump Administration should make them undergo an indoctrination problem that makes them as Western as Mickey Mouse.

#18 Jose, maybe the hypocrisy is that Islamic extremist groups that come into conflict with the US get lauded in this board as heros fighting the "empire", but fighters, Islamic or otherwise, who defy dictatorship in Syria or China get a blanket label as "extremists" instead.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Sep 9, 2018 8:34:11 PM | 19

A long time ago, Erdogan had admitted that his group was responsible for the problems in NW China. It was claimed that the head of China's MSS at time went ballistic at Erdogan. I surprised that Beijing didn't take a more active role in Syria, just to piss in Erdogan's cornflakes. While it's easier to place all the blame on Langley, let's not forget that Tokyo and Taipei are also involved.

Posted by: Ian | Sep 9, 2018 8:43:52 PM | 20

@17 red ryder and @18 jen... thanks for the overview with link..

@20 ian.. interesting if true..

Posted by: james | Sep 9, 2018 9:10:42 PM | 21

@karlof1

I am not versed in Islamic thought at all.I just know enough to realize that its another sea of knowledge.

Its been a long journey of correcting my assumtions and prejudice on a subject that I can frankly say I know nothing about.hence the username.

What I can say however, is that a large part of what I accumulated comes from a couple of Western born students in Iran's seminaries.
They make thoroughly researched short videos that debunk stereotypes and explain shia thought.

Also, they make Backfire videos as an answer to Netanyahoo's speech(to the iranian people) and to

And its absolutely hilarious.

Posted by: occidentosis | Sep 9, 2018 9:21:48 PM | 22

@karlof1

Sorry here is the link if you have any inclination to watch it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0--j1xywPBE

Posted by: occidentosis | Sep 9, 2018 9:24:18 PM | 23

Ian @ 20, James @ 21:

Tony Cartalucci / Land Destroyer is a good source of information about the activities of Turkish-backed Uyghur terrorists in NW China and parts of Southeast Asia (especially Thailand where Cartalucci is based).

This article is one such example:
http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2018/04/asia-shutting-down-us-turkish-ugyhur.html

Posted by: Jen | Sep 9, 2018 10:15:02 PM | 24

ABC.net.au obediently scrambles onto the China-bashing bandwagon with some Secretly Filmed, 2/3 masked, footage of the prelude to the shooting execution of a kneeling male civilian, by people dressed as paramilitary types. It's a rural setting near a grassy knoll. There's a brief glimpse of a rural near-horizon above the grassy knoll and an appropriate story of gross injustice. Here's the online version of the story and short video which was broadcast this morning.

ABC calls it Inside China's Capital Punishment System.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-10/inside-chinas-capital-punishment-system/10214480

(link tested & OK)

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 10, 2018 1:55:07 AM | 25

I'm generally never sure which I like less, whataboutery, or those who usually make the charge of whataboutery, but this time I am sure. Whatever crazy plan the racist NYPD used on muslims in New York needs to be condemned, and it in no way excuses the activities of the beijing central government as they oppress the indigenous population of the Uigur.
24 million is not a tiny population, yes even when measuring it against the billion souls who live in all of China. 12 million, the population of Uigurs whose presence is being deliberately overwhelmed by the PRC's transmigration program is no small number either.
12 million living, breathing thinking identities cannot be so lightly dismissed - ever.
I have opposed transmigration programs in Indonesia and fought against them in the Philippines where the Marcos and subsequent regimes deliberately foisted press-ganged Luzonese people upon the cultures and societies of Mindanao.

There are a few commonalities in these internal displacement programs such as the ones Beijing is running against Tibetans and Uigars. Firstly for the most part those transported have much in common with the Irish which england transported to Australia. They are the most powerless, poorest and put-upon people which the dominant culture can find amongst those who the dominant cultures deems to be somewhat culturally or racially aligned to themselves.
Since few volunteer to be transported far away from friends and family, law enforcement always makes up the numbers by giving what they consider the 'criminal element' within their own population an 'either or' option. It goes "either you agree to shift to Uigurland or we will execute you/put you in prison. So right from the get go the unwilling host population gets landed with unwilling immigrants who are frequently well versed in putting their own needs ahead of their community's needs.

I'm a bit upset to read this post b, it reminds me of the one where you appeared to try and justify the collective punishment visited upon Myanmar’s Rohingya people because some (a few, a very few and false flag cannot be discounted), members of the Myanmar’s Rohingya community took up arms against their oppressors. Thousands raped, hundreds killed, can never be excused espcially not when the action being taken is reminiscent of what the zionists do to the ME's indigenous population.
Because Uigurs are mostly muslim it is too easy for the arseholes in the PRC administration who have decided that they and only they should benefit from the belt and road initiative being developed in Uigurland to viciously crack down on the indigenous population stealing their land and denying them access any economic benefit, because they know if that indigenous population jacks up at all they can be dismissed as looney terrorists.

The jury is still out on Xi Jinping afaiac just because a pol backs some policies I like, that does not mean he/she gets a free pass from then on. Xi is a pol and should be regarded the same as any other member of that nefarious mob of shady self-servers.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Sep 10, 2018 3:33:21 AM | 26

Red Ryder @ 17,

Your Communist apologetics don't hold water. Yes the Ughurs "rose up" against "innocent Hans" - who have invaded their lands in massive waves to effect a slow cultural genocide, just like they have invaded Tibet. China's colonization is reminiscent of "Russification" during the USSR and the current mass immigration wave in Europe, but in the Uyghur case, the Han are the dominant, invasive settlers. The Han population of Uyghur approached 50%! Uyghurs never wanted to be, and do not now want to be, part of China, and especially not Communist totalitarian China.

You are just swallowing Chinese propaganda when you claim the tensions are the result of "radical jihadists". The opposition to Han colonialism and Chinese imperialism/Communist totalitarianism is widespread and unrelated to radical Islam.

It's worth observing that the US/CIA are often the bad guys, but do not let this fool you into propagandizing that China is in any way better; indeed China is far worse and if China ever takes over global dominion from the US, the situation will simply deteriorate far greater. China does not tolerate any dissent - it is not Communist economically (no Communist country ever was) but it is so politically.

Posted by: CalDre | Sep 10, 2018 5:57:35 AM | 27

What happened was Xinjiang went from peaceful coexistence to bloody massacres by Uyghurs. The police weren't even armed. In fact, in many police stations, they used women to interface with the Uyghur populations.Then some terrorists, radicalized by AQ, killed them, slaughtering with machete long knives.
RedRyder's piece is just incredible. Can he really be unaware that the Chinese have been moving Han massively into Xinjiang? b's figure of 45% Uyghur today is precisely the proof of it. It's much the same as the figure of 40% Kazakhs in Kazakhstan at the end of the Soviet period. The pundits told us that the Kazakhs would never dominate their own country again, but they have done. What the Uyghurs have done is absolutely inevitable, given the heavy-handed Beijing policy. Nothing to do with the US, though they're no doubt egging them on.

Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 10, 2018 6:35:37 AM | 28

China should also think about a program of resettling most of the Uyghurs in other areas of the country of less geopolitical importance.

This can take a few generations but is possible to achieve peacefully, by offering Uygurs who agree to resettle economic incentives and a higher standard of living.

The areas of geopolitical importance have to be settled with a homogeneous and loyal people.

Posted by: redrooster | Sep 10, 2018 6:37:23 AM | 29

China should also think about a program of resettling most of the Uyghurs in other areas of the country of less geopolitical importance.
This can take a few generations but is possible to achieve peacefully, by offering Uygurs who agree to resettle economic incentives and a higher standard of living.
You must be a Chinese troll. That's close to what Israel says about Palestinians, as long as the resettlement is outside Israel, in other Arab countries.

Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 10, 2018 7:44:06 AM | 30

Laguerre @30

I am talking about resettlement inside China, just not in the areas of geopolitical importance, namely where the trade routes and the pipelines pass.

Posted by: redrooster | Sep 10, 2018 7:54:58 AM | 31

Posted by: redrooster | Sep 10, 2018 6:37:23 AM | 29

Yeah there's nothing wrong with forcibly pushing people outta the homelands they have owned for centuries if they get in the way eh? Jaapie slugs did it in South Africa and zionist creeps are still doing it in Palestine - oh and Syria where the zioist arseholes decided that the Golan Heights were of strategic/econmic importance to israel so they just moved in and booted out any uncooperative types. That is how israel became known as an apartheid state, maybe Xi can help take the pressure off of netanyahoo and the rest of the rapists, thieves and murderers in zionland by doing the same, create 'apartheid China' it has a ring to it dontcha think?
People who live in 'the new world' - white invaders that is, really struggle to grasp how connected with land humans get after a few thousand years in the same spot.
Moving em on is never a good thing. I used to know a small mob who ended up in the territory after they got kicked outta the Pilbara in Western Australa.
Their original country was south western australia inland from Perth. About 120 years ago a gang of whitefellas moved onto their land and told the traditional owners "This is our land the government gave us a lease so it's now a cattle station - but its not all bad cos you fellas are our stationhands. Yep you are our jackaroos and we'll give you a bag of tea and a sack of sugar a week." So the locals were made to stop in one place - no more walking the dreaming trails for them. After a while (a few decades) they found out that the whitefellas who worked alongside em were getting paid cash money, so they asked for that too. "F*ck off only stores you coons, you bloody lucky to get that" said the owner. So the whole mob from the stations all around went on strike.
This was during world war 2 so the WA state government who were meant to be a labour party government pro workers backed by unions etc, declared a national emergency and sent in the army who pushed the blackfellas outta their land. Pushed off at the point of a gun, away a place where they had been for at least 20,000 years and made em shift north to the Pilbara.

"It was f##kin hard" this fella told me. From before was born but growing up the oldfellas talked about it and the women cried when they remembered their country. They had no connection with the new place plus it wasn't 'empty' as they had been told, that country belonged to another mob who weren't too happy to see them all, but they had also met a few whitefellas and they understood the mess these clans were in so they let them stay - pretty grudging at first by the sound of it. It was OK and getting better - except being as it wasn't their country they had no say in decisions made cos standard blackfella custom is the mob whose country it is says what's what.

Anyway they got themselves pretty settled until a whitefella, a real arsehole by the name of Laing Hancock (whose daughter Gina is now reputed to be the richest woman on the planet & she is even more creepy fascist than her dad was) discovered Iron ore in the Pilbara. All over it in fact. It didn't take much discovery since the entire area, mountains and all were ferrous.
So this mob plus the traditional owners, all got booted off. Yet again for the mob I knew some ellas from. The whitefellas had said the land was empty and that they could live there forever. Whitefellas lied about both. Again. Many moved north all the way up to Kimberly and Kununarra - some stopped in Broome as inland people they were blown away by the sea, and a few families shifted to Darwin where a couple of fellas in their clan had Larrakeyah connections.

A lot of this mob have booze issues; they have no home where they can stop and make rules like "no booze here" cos they have no country any more.
The concept of land is nothing the same for people who have stopped in one place for millennia. It is nothing like the same as a whitefella who doesn't mind selling his home for money if they can make a profit. That is so alien and abhorrent to people who look around their space knowing that their ancestors centuries before had done exactly the same thing. Willingly trading your home for anything much less something as temporary & useless as money seems insane to them. I doubt there is a word in whitefella lingo that can adequately describe how indigenous people feel about their land.
Values like that cannot be traded off, the destruction caused by shifting people away from their homes destroys even the most solid well rooted extended families and clans, no amount of money and stuff can ever put that right.
Socialism is about societies - any politician who deliberately destroys long established societies simply isn't a socialist.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Sep 10, 2018 8:25:40 AM | 32

Redrooster @ 29, 31: Doubtful that resettling Uyghurs elsewhere in China will work, if only because there are few parts of China that are not important geopolitically. Even deserts and mountains may have valuable mineral deposits underground or sources of groundwater needed to sustain agriculture, household and industry use. Who is to say that an area that is unimportant now will not be important in five years' time.

Plus resettling Uyghurs means asking others to make space for them or resettling those people somewhere else. The Chinese would be wise not to create new and unnecessary conflicts between ethnic and religious groups by moving groups around.

And if Uyghurs themselves don't agree to move voluntarily, even if offered money and jobs, are you prepared to force them to move?

Incidentally the US used to move its own aboriginal peoples like the Cherokee and the Chickasaw from one area to another. The result was clashes between one displaced aboriginal people and another aboriginal people on whose land the displaced group was dumped; and the displaced people feeling alienated in new surroundings, wanting to go home and becoming broken in spirit because they are separated from lands they regard as ancestral.

Posted by: Jen | Sep 10, 2018 8:30:41 AM | 33

@redrooster

I would like to resettle you in the northern territories, thats the middle of bumfuck nowhere.
no strategic importance no pipeline no shit.
the unfortunate souls who encountered the white men dont even have roofs there.
maybe the artic cold would calm your racist spiel a bit

Posted by: occidentosis | Sep 10, 2018 8:34:02 AM | 34

> The government shifted to harsher policies in 2009 after protests in Xinjiang’s capital, Urumqi, spiraled into rioting

Urumqi ???

It is one of the largest logistics hubs between Russia and China.
I ain't sure if it would play any role in OBOR but as of now it is one of the typical trade routes.

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 10, 2018 9:56:43 AM | 35

I visited Xinjiang earlier this summer precisely for the purpose of seeing for myself what things were like. While I don't have time to comment extensively now, a cursory view of your piece leads me to say that this is spot on:
There are rumors that up to a million people are moved through such programs. That estimate is based on only 8 vague interviews with locals. The real number is likely in the lower thousands. There is no evidence that any serious harm is done to them.
The re-education program takes a few of months, after which the subjects are released. By the way, I was there during Ramadan and can give testimony to the free practice of religion without hindrance from authorities. Perhaps I'll comment more later. Gotta run...

Posted by: Maracatu | Sep 10, 2018 10:02:00 AM | 36

@Inkan1969 #19

> It's an argument that these NYPD guidelines, the French law against praying in the street and the laws prohibiting religious attire should be just as criticized

Guess one does not have to mix those three points.

Re: religious attire - should it be allowed or not wearing Hitler's swastika? In a sense that is religious attire too.

Re: street praying - yes, it should be allowed/prohibited on the same terms as huge demonstrations. Because public places should remain public. Because huge mobs are irrational and easily switched to panic or rage. If Muslims want other in dozens thousands and pray together - why won't then rent themselves some stadium or field and do it there, in their private property? Why should they instead de facto deny other citizens from using those public places? And if demonstrations can at least claim some emergent need to make themselves seen and heard - a casual prayer does not have even that.

Re: guidelines - if police HQ broadcasts that blue Buick with white painted tires was hijacked and asks everyone, and especially patrol policemen, to pay special attention to such machines, should we criticize them for discriminating against owners of blue cars and for discriminating against owners of cars with white tires and for discriminating against owners of Buicks ?

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 10, 2018 10:21:19 AM | 37

Re: Debsisdead #26

> Since few volunteer to be transported far away from friends and family, law enforcement always makes up the numbers by giving what they consider the 'criminal element' within their own population an 'either or' option.

So, what is wrong with Trump's Great wall then?
He just tries to help Mexicans, forced to move north, to stay in their warm homelands with friends and families.

It is easy to generalize....

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 10, 2018 10:30:41 AM | 38

@CalDre #27

> China's colonization is reminiscent of "Russification" during the USSR

...except that USSR was anti-Russian state with theoretical and practical push for enforced de-Rusification

So, if that is to be "reminiscent" then it says a lot, for Beijing.

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 10, 2018 10:32:52 AM | 39

@Arioch 39

There's no victim of Russificiation, of which there are a great many, that remembers the Russian imperialism the way you do. I'll go ahead and believe them ahead of you.

In fact it's still going on, I can hear all the Russian idiots crying about how Ukraine doesn't want to speak Russian. Yeah, they hate Russia for very very very very very very very good reason. The Russian supremacist meddling with its neighbors, its disgusting displays of condescension toward Ukraine ("Ukrainian is not a real language or culture"), and all the other crap I hear.

Well at least Russia has learned not to try to Russify China, only reason they get along now. If only this lesson could expand to the rest of your neighbors.

Posted by: CalDre | Sep 10, 2018 10:56:56 AM | 40

It would be interesting to overlay a map of OBOR with a recent increase in ISIS and other ‘rebel’ activity. Especially around pipelines, Balochistan, Myanmar etc.The agency doing what it does best...

Posted by: Mark T | Sep 10, 2018 11:15:12 AM | 41

@CalDre just google "Lenin about russian chauvinism".
Even pro-western Wikipedia had ot keep an article, however brief and vague, about enforced de-Russification of Russian urban population.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korenizatsiya

> how Ukraine doesn't want to speak Russian

No, they cry about Ukrainian regime *prohibiting* use of Russian language.
So either you chosen to listen to pseudo-Russians or you chosen to misrepresent what Russians actually say.

Even USA before the 2013 coup stated in public that Russian is native language for 83% of Ukraine's population.
Even Quora had to discuss it. https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Ukrainian-government-websites-use-only-Ukrainian-and-English

> The Russian supremacist meddling with its neighbors

So Russia should just cheer up when other nations are meddling with our neighbors and organize cultural genocide there, right?
Selth-loathing suicidal Russia is the only Russia that is good and shoulder-patted.

> Well at least Russia has learned not to try to Russify China

Maybe because Chinese did not conspired with Bolsheviks to invade Russia and stole her lands?

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/568756ba69492ea07bc25a6d/t/581cca69f951af7840c14a04/1478286222850/Screen-Shot-2015-05-08-at-7.49.42-PM.png?format=1000w
https://observationalism.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/ukraine_elections_1991-2012_maps.png

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 10, 2018 11:16:35 AM | 42

These copies of the maps taken from

http://www.cpreview.org/blog/2015/05/identity-theft
https://observationalism.com/2014/01/27/the-geographical-and-historical-divisions-underlying-ukraines-political-strife/

Though it is not that miportant: maps themselves are well-known.
For those who want to know, of course.

For those who stole Russian lands with Russian population and now is eager to complete cultural genocide of those pesky aborigines, it is the other way around of course.

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 10, 2018 11:19:14 AM | 43

Actually the Uyghurs are NOT indigenous to Xinjiang.
The Han dynasty had already explored and established outposts in the region more than 2000 years ago, and the local population a seminal potpourri of peoples before the Uyghurs later popped by, after being pushed out from the Altais by the rambunctious Mongols.
They form roughly half the population of Xinjiang today, and the community became known again as Uyghurs only in 1935.
Further West, the Tang had already rolled back the expanding Abbasid/Arab empire at Talas in today's Kazakhstan; it was here that the secret of paper-making was transmitted to the Arabs, and then to medieval Europe.
The Chinese influence and presence in Central Asia is long historical fact.
But needless to say, it is in line with the racially-tinged animus of China-haters to instigate and dwell on the myth of genocide and displacement of docile communities ( which Tibetans, by the way, were certainly not, hundreds of years ago, before Princess Wen Cheng of Tang brought Buddhism to Tibet via marriage).
Obviously, Mr B's conclusion about absorbing the Uyghur minority into the Chinese narrative is a wise one, and material wealth alone is not solely the answer in the quest for man's reason for his worldly existence.
It would be much easier, and beneficial to all, if third parties climb down from divide-and-rule tactics - under guise of concern for a truculent group, not usually justified - that have exploited other societies for the last 500 years.



Posted by: LittleWhiteCabbage | Sep 10, 2018 11:48:19 AM | 44

It's Not Easy –

Re the Rohingya – the only person I know of who actually understands the complex situation in Myanmar regarding the Rohingya is Andrew Korybko. He has written extensively on the subject. Here are some links to some of his analyses:

https://orientalreview.org/2015/06/09/american-plan-for-a-south-asian-kosovo-in-rohingyaland-ii/

http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_77371.shtml

And guess what – look here:
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2017/09/the-rohingya-of-myanmar-pawns-in-an-anglo-chinese-proxy-war-fought-by-saudi-jihadists.html?ref=patrick.net

This article by “b” elicited responses by Korybko himself, including one comment by him that presented links to his superb historical analysis of the situation titled “American Plan for a Southasian Kosovo in Rohingyaland,” as well as to a book-length series of articles by him titled “How the US Could Manufacture a Mess in Myanmar.” It is my considered opinion that no one can claim to understand the issues involved until they've read Korybko's works.

And Korybko has yet more such information on line – it's easy to find.

//

The Wikipedia article on the Rohingya situation now carries some information on the dozens upon dozens of recent attacks by Rohingya terrorists in Myanmar on police and military units. The article used to include information about the 70 years of such attacks since the end of WWII, but since the US began its propaganda campaign that information has been deleted.

Posted by: AntiSpin | Sep 10, 2018 12:00:05 PM | 45

@LittleWhiteCabbage 44

"But needless to say, it is in line with the racially-tinged animus of China-haters to instigate and dwell on the myth of genocide and displacement of docile communities". LOL, some ad hominem attack. China is a ruthless barbaric totalitarian government, which offers no transparency and (like all government) lies constantly.

Uyghurs came to where they are during the Qin dynasty, after the Qin genocided the Dzungars. Tang dynasty had lost control of Western regions 1,000 years ago. The Uyghurs were on relatively good terms with the Qin dynasty, but they don't like Communism (good for them!) and they don't like the forced Hanification of their lands.

To avoid the divide-and-rule you are speaking of, why do you think China moved all the Han into Xianjing? To conquer and rule, in large part through division.

For you to turn this into a "racist against China" charade proves your mendacity.

Posted by: CalDre | Sep 10, 2018 12:06:11 PM | 46

"Actually the Uyghurs are NOT indigenous to Xinjiang.
The Han dynasty had already explored and established outposts in the region more than 2000 years ago, and the local population a seminal potpourri of peoples before the Uyghurs later popped by, after being pushed out from the Altais by the rambunctious Mongols."

So another Chinese troll. The Uyghurs have been there nearly 2000 years. Like everywhere, peoples move about.

"Further West, the Tang had already rolled back the expanding Abbasid/Arab empire at Talas in today's Kazakhstan"

Another piece of fake news. The Battle of Talas in 751 put a stop to Chinese expansionism in Central Asia, and prevented them taking over to the West, but it was really too far for the Chinese. But it was the Muslims who won in Central Asia. The Uyghurs are Muslims today aren't they? Persian/Turkish culture invaded Xinjiang successfully, and now the Chinese are trying to get it out.

Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 10, 2018 12:14:20 PM | 47

As a social scientist who just visited the region (travelling to Ürümqi, Kashgar, Turpan, and Dunhuang - the latter actually in western Gansu Province), I can vouch for Bernard's following statements as being observably true, while the part which I wasn't there long enough to evaluate nevertheless being eminently plausible: "The re-education or indoctrination program for people suspected of following an Islamist or national-ethnic trend is only one long term part of a security initiative that comes with intense surveillance and police control. The other part is economic development. Large infrastructure investments in Xinjiang create new options for a formerly rural or nomadic population."

I take issue, however, with the following NYT statement: "The goal is to remove any devotion to Islam." I obviously did not personally witness any of the re-education programs, although I did speak to people of the region who had knowlege of them from citizens that had been through said programs. Hence, my previous statement that the re-education program generally takes a few of months, after which the subjects are released. I have no reason to doubt that the re-education programs seek to eradicate the "radical Islam" ideology (which I believe is foreign to Islam). However, inside Kashgar's Id Kah Mosque, the largest mosque in China, there is a big photo of Xi Jinping meeting with the local Imam. Photographs of Chinese leaders are meant to convey a message. I ask you to examine the photo closely. What does it "tell" you? Is that photo conveying a message that China is against any devotion to Islam? Western critics have argued with me that the photo is mere propaganda that is meant to fool people. I don't think so. I think it is a photo conveying the respect for Islam while at the same time establishing the supremacy of the government.

Anyway, I was in the city of Turpan at the close of Ramadan. There was much festive activity on the streets of the city and a total absense of police or military personnel. I can testify that I saw nothing that led me to believe that the Chinese government has any (at least overt) intention of eradicating Islam.

Posted by: Maracatu | Sep 10, 2018 12:17:41 PM | 48

@Arioch 42

For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification_of_Ukraine discusses the Bolshevik policy of Korenization, which was meant to cement their totalitarian power, not to grant liberties to the locals. And it was not de-Russification of the Russian urban population, it was requiring Russian colonialists/settlers/invaders merely to learn the language of the lands they had colonized/settled/invaded. British Empire required this to, US Empire does not.

"No, they cry about Ukrainian regime *prohibiting* use of Russian language." Yes, they do, but they go much further than this, they claim Ukrainian is not a real language or culture, that Ukrainian has no real literature or poetry, etc. etc. It is rank Russian chauvinism. I lived in Ukraine (mainly in Russian parts, Odessa and Crimea) for years, spoke to many Russians there, I quite know what I'm talking about and their attitude toward Ukrainians.

"Even USA before the 2013 coup stated in public that Russian is native language for 83% of Ukraine's population." Exactly, the result of Russification (Russian imperialism).

"So Russia should just cheer up when other nations are meddling with our neighbors and organize cultural genocide there, right?" No, that's not what I wrote, but of course you want to manipulate it and change it to justify your Russian chauvinism. If you really cared you would think about *WHY* US was so easily able to flip Ukraine. And having lived in Ukraine and spoken to many Ukrainians, I know the reason, and I have explained it to you (same reason all of Russia's neighbors hate Russia - imperialism and Russification). And your response is further Russian chauvinism. LOL. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink."

The "cultural genocide" was Russian domination of Ukraine in the first place - which led to the 84% speaking Russia as a native language.

Posted by: CalDre | Sep 10, 2018 12:20:09 PM | 49

@24 jen.. thanks for sharing that link.. i learned more from it.

@27 CalDre..seems to me at this point that the usa doesn't tolerate any dissent on the world stage.. now, maybe china doesn't either, but with such intolerance on display from these world powers, i wouldn't be so proud to identify with any of them and frankly can't tell which is worse..

Posted by: james | Sep 10, 2018 12:54:00 PM | 50

@45 Antispin. It was my understanding that Daesh had reared its head in the Rohingya population. When the Myanmar military requested that the Rohingya population 'out' Daesh they were rebuffed, then attacked. They were then appropriately dealt with imo as the Rohingya are not actualy indigenous to Myanmar AFAIK.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Sep 10, 2018 2:14:27 PM | 51

"Rohingya are not actualy indigenous to Myanmar AFAIK."

Fatuous argument. Nobody's indigenous. If that were a valid argument, the whites would have to clear out of north America.

Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 10, 2018 4:17:18 PM | 52

Too many of the commenters appear oblivious of the weaponisation of muslims by the empire.
That is what China needs to handle resolutely and that is what they are trying to do.
The deliberate radicalisation of muslims in order to bring chaos into the empires rivals has been openly stated by their oligarchs as the aim since over two centuries. But the technique is much older. Machiawelli is unfairly seen as a symbol of malicious manipulations while his intentions as I understand it were to strengthen good leaders. But the same advice when used by evil parties does have malicious consequences. And that characterises the empires current efforts to subvert China and other rivals.

Posted by: Peter Grafström | Sep 10, 2018 4:53:26 PM | 53

@27, CalDre

Sorry you think that way. I presented facts. Irrefutable. You draw your conclusions. I draw mine. Has zero to do with my position in relation to Beijing. In fact, if you have any knowledge about me and my dispositions, I'm 100% against all governments, 100% against ideologies, and have warned that the road President Xi is on as the new Mao may end in catastrophe. His absolute Communist ideology is completely antithetical to the enormous development of China. Crushing all religious symbols from churches, demanding total commitment to dogma is ruinous thinking.

However, as for the radical Uyghurs, they are brothers with all Wahhabi radicals. How China treats them and tries to prevent more from developing is China's business.

My position on terrorist is kill them. It's all they "understand".

Posted by: Red Ryder | Sep 10, 2018 5:04:23 PM | 54

Jen @18--

Thanks! That's the article I couldn't find the link for.

LittleWhiteCabbage @44--

Yes, for most of history, the peoples of the steppes were nomads who roamed from Mongolia to Poland to the Black Sea. Only a very small % of westerners have any handle on Chinese history, its great depth and breadth, so it's very easy to fool them as they're being fooled now.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 10, 2018 5:12:39 PM | 55

@28, LaGuerre,

I have studied and interacted with Chinese for 17 years. I have had business dealings in several cities (Dalian, Zhengzhou, Beijing, Shanghai, and Tianjin.)
Probably, on average have spent three hours a day/night involved with things Chinese during those 17 years.

So, I don't accept your colorations about me and what I posted.

You might be thought to be a Falun Gong spokesperson or guest opinion writer for Epoch Times. But I don't project that on you.
I simply read your comment and weigh it for what its worth versus my knowledge and the actual reality.

Posted by: Red Ryder | Sep 10, 2018 5:13:55 PM | 56

48

No , the U S and Germany were not able to merely 'flip' Ukraine into the Western camp or we would not have the present bloody shenanegins ! The geo-political complexities of that region are just that comlex - the Bolshevik's had to at all times, frame their policies in the exigencies of war or near war which of course could not yield ideal outcomes

Posted by: ashley albanese | Sep 10, 2018 5:43:06 PM | 57

re Red Ryder 55

I don't care much whether you're a useful idiot for Beijing. This is an ethnic fight for colonial domination. Much the same as the Kazakhs. Only in the Kazakh case, the colonial power, the USSR, collapsed, and left them independent. If things were reasonable, and not colonialist, the Uyghurs would be left to create their own nation. But Beijing is centralist, and the empire has to be retained. It's like British imperialism before 1960.

Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 10, 2018 5:57:14 PM | 58

There is no difference between British (and American) overseas colonies and the Chinese colony in Xinjiang, other than that there is a land frontier, rather than sea.

Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 10, 2018 6:07:33 PM | 59

Posted by: Peter Grafström | Sep 10, 2018 4:53:26 PM | 52

Too many of the commenters appear oblivious of the weaponisation of muslims by the empire.

What absolute tosh. Once again an argument in favour of collective punishment which decent people rightly criticise israel for, then turn around and defend it when nations they 'like' do the same thing. This is so much bullshit, people who reduce these complex human situations down to simplistic left/right, good vs bad 'analysis' are entirely missing the point.

In fact it sickens me to see people who adopt a decent humanist attitude when their fellow beings are slaughtered by the amerikan, french & englander empires, then turn around and use the same mealy mouthed excuses amerikan, french & englander arseholes use simply because the bad actors are russian, chinese or burmese, alleged 'socialists' or whatever. Bad behavior needs to be called out wherever it happens. Of course some Rohinga are fighting back against their oppressor, they have had to wear some evil shit from a total low life by the name of Aung Sung Su Ky a piece of work who has used burman's sense of racial superiority to win support just as her dad did when he was the most evil f**king president of the joint. He oppressed the Karen and Shan mobs, something which his daughter couldn't do as she had made a deal with the politicians from those people to win power. So Aung II, the creepoid slug, selected the Rohinga to be the scapegoat for burmans who might otherwise question the lack of 'trickle down' from her neoliberal policies - all the deals she had made with amerika and england.
She oppressed people and naturally some fought back, mainly attacking roads and bridges and in a couple of instances the agents of their oppression, the 'police' and army. This entire terrorism furphy that amerika has been playing everywhere and arseholes from all sides pick up on to excuse their destruction of groups of humans who stand in their way, basically boils down to, "If a mob of thugs attack you at the behest of some tyrant, you cannot resist, for if you do you are a terrorist, an enemy of humanity and have earned the right to see your entire society and the people who make it up annihilated". What a load of imperialism supporting tosh. No group it doesn't matter how big, how capitalist or socialist it is, has the right to wage war on another group whose crime is some fork tongued politician created nonsense such as "standing in the way of progress".

I don't expect many to agree since previous discussions like this have led me to conclude that so many alleged socialists & rightists are merely contrarian opponents of whatever their own society does. They are often correct about much of what they consider, but are totally wrong in their motivation. They once called those who supported policies that went against citizens' interests that worthless term 'sheeple', yet in many ways they are no different, they knee jerk react to issues on the basis of who says it is good or bad, rather than considering the reality and the effect on the humans involved, then forming an opinion.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Sep 10, 2018 6:19:38 PM | 60

re Debs, hmmm where were the socialists doing what you claim? I haven't seen many recently.

Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 10, 2018 6:37:18 PM | 61

After seeing comments on this forum regarding the demographics of Xinjiang, in particular the % proportions of Han Chinese and Uyghur peoples, I decided to check Wikipedia to see what information could be obtained there and this is what I found:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang#Demographics

"... The Qing began a process of settling Han, Hui, and Uyghur settlers into Northern Xinjiang (Dzungaria) starting in the 18th century. At the start of the 19th century, 40 years after the Qing reconquest, there were around 155,000 Han and Hui Chinese in northern Xinjiang and somewhat more than twice that number of Uyghurs in southern Xinjiang.[128] A census of Xinjiang under Qing rule in the early 19th century tabulated ethnic shares of the population as 30% Han and 60% Turkic, while it dramatically shifted to 6% Han and 75% Uyghur in the 1953 census. However, a situation similar to the Qing era-demographics with a large number of Han had been restored by 2000 with 40.57% Han and 45.21% Uyghur.[129] ... [Today's] demographic situation is similar to that of the early Qing period in Xinjiang.[130] Before 1831, only a few hundred Chinese merchants lived in southern Xinjiang oases (Tarim Basin) and only a few Uyghurs lived in northern Xinjiang (Dzungaria).[131] After 1831 the Qing permitted and encouraged Han Chinese migration into the Tarim basin in southern Xinjiang, although with very little success, and stationed permanent troops on the land there as well.[132] Political killings and expulsions of non Uyghur populations in the uprisings of the 1860s [132] and 1930s saw them experience a sharp decline as a percentage of the total population[133] though they rose once again in the periods of stability following 1880 (which saw Xinjiang increase its population from 1.2 million)[134][135] and 1949. From a low of 7% in 1953, the Han began to return to Xinjiang between then and 1964, where they comprised 33% of the population (54% Uyghur), similarly to Qing times. A decade later, at the beginning of the Chinese economic reform in 1978, the demographic balance was 46% Uyghur and 40% Han;[129] this has not changed drastically until the last census in 2000, with the Uyghur population reduced to 42%.[136] Military personnel are not counted and national minorities are undercounted in the Chinese census, as in most censuses.[137] While some of the shift has been attributed to an increased Han presence,[9] Uyghurs have also emigrated to other parts of China, where their numbers have increased steadily. Uyghur independence activists express concern over the Han population changing the Uyghur character of the region, though the Han and Hui Chinese mostly live in northern Xinjiang Dzungaria, and are separated from areas of historical Uyghur dominance south of the Tian Shan mountains (southwestern Xinjiang), where Uyghurs account for about 90% of the population.[138] ..."

It would appear that the Uyghur themselves are recent arrivals in parts of Xinjiang and moved there along with Han Chinese, Hui (Chinese-speaking Muslim) and other Turkic-speaking settlers (Kazakhs, Uzbeks) under Manchu Qing imperial rule. Moreover the Qing moved them there as part of a resettlement policy after wiping out the Buddhist Mongol state of Dzungaria and committing genocide against the Dzungars there.

Posted by: Jen | Sep 10, 2018 7:14:51 PM | 62

Another example of how western media twists the meaning of words to suit their rotten political agenda.

Western media shamelessly bashing China for re-educating AKA de-brainwashing Uyghurs from wahhabisme created by CIA.

There is no lack of "useful idiots" from western countries or islamic countries bombarded daily by anti-China propaganda via western media believing that China is abusing the minorities while the same western media keep silent when it comes to their own native population such as abuses towards the native americans.

When it comes to info-war, China sorely lacks the capability as opposed to ironically cyber-war for example.

There is not enough political will for actively fighting back instead of passively defending, especially with the existence of certain factions being lenient towards us regime.

Posted by: Face The Fact | Sep 10, 2018 10:05:13 PM | 63

I know, I know....it's DEBKA.....


Chinese warships, fighter jets and bombers took part in the big, week-long Russian naval exercise in the eastern Mediterranean that ended on Saturday, Sept. 8, DEBKAfile’s military sources reveal. It was the first time that Beijing took any military role in the seven-year Syrian war, a development that has been kept under close wraps by Moscow, Washington and Jerusalem. Our military sources report that 3,500 Chinese marines are on standby for flights to Syria to join the Russian-Iranian-Syrian campaign for retaking Idlib province from rebel hands. They will fly through Russia. Beijing owns a special interest in this campaign in view of the strong presence among the jihadist groups holed up in Idlib of several thousand Uighur Islamists from Xinjiang, who are members of the banned Turkistan Islamic Party (TIP), Al Qaeda’s branch in China.

https://www.debka.com/mivzak/china-to-join-idlib-offensive-took-part-in-russian-mediterranean-drill/

Posted by: dh | Sep 10, 2018 11:06:26 PM | 64

Wow, a lot of big words in this thread looking here at Diebs especially, mixing different conflicts, different countries, completely different histories and pretending in each case the minority is the victim oppressed by the state? Does that make for a sound discussion?

If it was as simple as this Albanians in Kosovo fully deserved their entity they got by NATO's grace, am I right? And of course so do the subjected southern Yemenis from the evil Houthis and the Balochis and and and....wow, always being enlightened in here.
I don't know how well you know Myanmar, whether you've at least traveled and spent an extensive period in that country to come to a sound conclusion about the Rohingyas (that term always reminds me of Bosniaks, another nice invention by the Anglos) and their 'plight' but one thing I can assure you, the attention they have been receiving from western media is not due to their situation but solely due to geopolitics. Myanmar matters, it did during World War 2 and it still does today. So the view you are painting here (Of course some Rohinga are fighting back against their oppressor,...) legitimizes all sorts of western engineered or backed uprisings (Syria, Kosovo, or Chechnya).

It seems in your eyes rising up against the central state if you are a minority is justified under any circumstance if your people feel treated unfairly or opressed, when in reality the world is far more complex than this. Also, you speak out against forced resettlement, with which I agree, but then you seem oblivious about the colonial history and the migration that occurred during that time. Something that was completely beyond the control of local Rakhine or Palestinians. Yet you feel quite different about the two conflicts, which goes to show that there is more complexity involved than what it may seem on the surface. I do, however, agree with you that a lot of users have a black-white world view in here justifying or accepting any transgression of Russia, China, Venezuela and other 'multi-polar' powers and single out only those committed by the Anglo-Zionists. B himself is prone to that thinking and I think it is wrong.

Posted by: Alexander P | Sep 10, 2018 11:48:14 PM | 65

re Posted by: Alexander P | Sep 10, 2018 11:48:14 PM | 64

See, I don't believe that whether or not USuk are involved in a minority's fight for survival should be a determinant of whether a movement is 'right' or not. But by the same token when a minority sides with a foreign power the issue becomes clouded by a big mob of irrelevant to the central issue matters. For example those syrians who had enough of corrupt regional administration ended up copping the short straw when their 'leadership' decided to take a shortcut and accept arms and assistance from fukusi imperialists.

I haven't lived in Burma for more than 15 years but I am aware that those people referred to as the artisans from Bengal and their families were invited in to Arakan by a monarch of Mrauk-U, most likely King Narameikhla (1404-1434)who had enjoyed the support of Bengalis sometime in the early 1400's.
However the burmans of the Konbaung Dynasty invaded Arakan in the 1780's and slaughtered the Arakan leadership in a tyrannical takeover of many of the independent states in the region such as Manipur, Ayutthaya, Assam & Pegu.

Ironically it was englander imperialism which prevented the burman fascists from dominating Siam (as it was then known) plus swathes of Indochina.
The people of Burma/Myanmar who practise Islam and live in the region once known as Arakan have much more legitimacy in that region than the the arriviste Burmans.
Rightist administrations have always been problematic in states where the majority philosophy is Buddhism, as many Buddhists are into non-violence. That means most people in places like Thailand and Myanmar have no viable way of resisting those who also claim to be Buddhist but who are really murdering & greedy racist butchers. see Aung San Suu Kyi or whatever she calls herself this week.

What sort of arseholes would declare hundreds of thousands of humans born in Myanmar 'non-citizens' just because they practise an alternative philosophy and their skin is darker? Burman sh1t bags that is who.

As for all the mealy mouthed nonsense about Uigars winning the raffle and being sent off to holiday camps for a spot of relaxing re-education, if this 're education' is so wonderful and all, why is that at least half the current politburo had parents got sent off for re-education during the Cultural Revolution, now moan and whine like stuck pigs about the tough times their families had?

AFAIK socialism in the PRC ended when the chairman karked it but that was largely un-noticed in the west because until quite recently China had stuck to the foreign relations plan of non-intervention set out by the old master Chou-En-Lai.

Nowadays China doesn't seem to support old Zhou's policy of engaged non-interference, and the world is not better off for that.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Sep 11, 2018 2:14:48 AM | 66

@ashley albanese 56

"U S and Germany were not able to merely 'flip' Ukraine into the Western camp or we would not have the present bloody shenanegins"

LOL, denial is not a river in Egypt. Wasn't a perfect flip but they got 80% of Ukraine. Quite an accomplishment. What are the odds Russia can get 80% of Canada, hmmm?

Give credit where it's due, even if it pisses you off. Denying reality out of emotional frustration is just stupid.

Posted by: CalDre | Sep 11, 2018 3:46:35 AM | 67

Red Ryder 53

OK, let me assume you are speaking the truth, that you have spent almost two decades dealing with China daily.

What do you know about these "radical" Uyghurs? Have you been to Xinjiang? Have you seen these facilities? Do you know how many Uyghurs are incarcerated there? Do you have any reason to believe all of those incarcerated are "radicals"?

"How China treats [radical Wahhabists in Xinjiang] and tries to prevent more from developing is China's business." Within limits, yes, but, please answer my preceding questions.

"My position on terrorist is kill them. It's all they "understand"." You could say the same about Americans or the British, frankly much more so, given their history of carnage is far vaster and consistent. Vietnam alone 3 million civilians brutally murdered, all jihadists in all history have probably not murdered so many innocents.

Posted by: CalDre | Sep 11, 2018 3:50:59 AM | 68

caldre 27

* China is a ruthless barbaric totalitarian government, which offers no transparency and (like all government) lies constantly.]

Speak for yourself...

fukus was built on deception .
Its entire history reeks of B.S.
.
TAM, Indo/sino war, Tibet, Xinjiang,
Fallujah, mosul, raqqa, Libya, Iraq, Nam, Cambobdia, Laos, Indonesia, E timor, West Papua, Kosovo, Kashmir, Nagaland...Skripal.

Ergo...
What makes you think they'r telling the truth this time ?
Have anglos lost their collective critical thinking ?

P.S.
fukus defines barbarity.
[You want some gory details ?]


**China is far worse and if China ever takes over global dominion from the US, the situation will simply deteriorate far greater. China does not tolerate any dissent - it is not Communist economically (no Communist country ever was) but it is so politically.]

You'r a liar....
and there'r lots more where you come from,

Just goes to show that, Contrary to popular believe, fukus elites dont monopolise B.S.....its as muriikan as apple pie. !

Reality check....

For the past three decades, fukus has been hogging the top spot in international polls as the greatest threat to world peace.
No mean feat that.

As for that 'China gonna take over our pax murkka' canard, ...
FFS, its getting tiring,
stop projecting your own mindset.

P.S.
Seems that you've learned nothing, 'since our last encounter.

pathetic ....

Posted by: denk | Sep 11, 2018 4:01:54 AM | 69

The Rakhine, practicing Buddhists, have lived in Arakan much longer than any Bengali, yes some may have been invited to live there and trade during the Arakan empire period but a lot settled there only during the British Period. Let's not forget that the English wrought control of that area much earlier than the rest of Burma, in 1826 already, basically easing migration and trade with the rest of the Bengal. Migration within the empire was often encouraged especially when they needed more labour in one area. In essence it was again European interventionism that led to the situation we have today (combined with home-grown animosity that is being abused by local elites to their advantage).

How do you explain the take-over of Tibet in 1949 if the PRC guided by Zhou-en Lai's wisdom was so non-interventionist? To me, China's domestic policy vis-a-vis its minorities has been surprisingly consistent, whether with Tibetans or Uigurs.

Posted by: Alexander P | Sep 11, 2018 4:36:01 AM | 70

denk 68

Wow, so much nonsense in your post.

Go away, pesky rat.

Posted by: CalDre | Sep 11, 2018 4:58:56 AM | 71

CalDre | Sep 11, 2018 4:58:56 AM | 70
Now name calling, instead of addressing a response point, by point, by point.
Pesky indeed...

Posted by: V | Sep 11, 2018 5:24:26 AM | 72

V 71

There's nothing to respond to, it rants about "fukus", which must mean something, but I don't speak rat.

Posted by: CalDre | Sep 11, 2018 7:28:28 AM | 73

*There's nothing to respond to, it rants about "fukus", which must mean something, but I don't speak rat.*


deb owned the copyright since 2008.

you duno what it means? too lame ,babe !
its gaining popularity over the years for good reasons.

They dont call it fukus for nuthin you know...
Voted Biggest threat to peace since 2000.
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/08/07/polls-us-greatest-threat-to-peace-world-today.html

The only surprise here is why only 24% voted fukus ???

So your claim that 'China is far worse ' reeks of pure unadulterated cow dung.

Wow...
CON-gress and now WH wanna impose economic sanction on China using trumped up charges !

+Is NYT, WSJ, CON-gress, WH your go to source ?

+Do you think the worst abuser of human rights has any business lecturing, never mind 'punishing' anybody for 'human rights abuses' ?

hhhhhh


P.S.
Give credit where it's due, even if it pisses you off.

Denying reality out of emotional frustration is just stupid.

Resorting to Ad hominem right after you accuse others of such is downright infantile.

Posted by: denk | Sep 11, 2018 11:59:48 AM | 74

@68 CalDre

You conflate a Hegemonic war against Vietnam by the US with a war against Muslim Brotherhood Wahhabi terrorism, directed into a proxy war on many nations since the 1980s, including against Russia, China, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and now the Donbass and Crimea (through cooperation from Ukraine).

How you do that is interesting. But totally flawed thinking.

Take a long pause. Breathe deeply. A small number of Uyghurs have been radicalized. And most of the majority is doing just fine, prospering in Xinjiang.

Check Tibet to see how the bad Commies straightened out that society. It took over a bestial slave society run by Buddhists, freed the people and saved the heritage and culture, including the historic sites and buildings. You can believe the CIA and its front man or you can believe the facts and your own eyes.
There are plenty of videos of what the Chinese found when they took Tibet. People were treated as animals by the monks. It was a great liberation from Feudalism. Tibet now has the highest rate of economic growth in China.

Doesn't mean I back Communist Regime. They have their own sins and I've indicated I do not like one bit of Xi's Maoist revision and Main Line ideology. I think its bad and a huge mistake.

But do some thorough research.

Posted by: Red Ryder | Sep 11, 2018 1:25:31 PM | 75

@caldre... i am curious if you believe this wahabbi death cult is a plight on the planet? do you think some of these uyghurs have been indoctrinated into this cult and are intent on performing similar tasks as what isis and friends have provided to iraq and syria? i am genuinely curious...

Posted by: james | Sep 11, 2018 2:06:22 PM | 76

StephenLaudig @6

The Han Communists are pursuing policies that have aspects of genocide in the sense of wanting to exterminate a culture if not necessarily murder it.

The damned CPC has been sooo determined to "genocide" policies that the population of Uyghur jumped from 3.29 million in 1949 (before CPC came to power) to 10 million nowadays according to 2010 nation-wide population census.

And the culture "genocide" is even horrendous:

- Nigermaidi Zechmaitop, ethnic Uyghur, top 5 anchorman of CCTV (China's Nation TV Station), one of the anchormen of the most important annual Spring Festival Gala (as important as Super Bowl ): His Uyghur Wedding in 2015

- Abudushalamu: rising basketball star, ethnic Uyghur, just won gold medal with Chinese National Basketball Team: His 2018 Asian Game Highlights at Final against Iran|,2018 NBA Summer League for Warrior. (I just become a fan of him.)

- Dilraba, red hot actress in China, ethnic Uyghur Some of her TV drama/entertaining program on youtube, Dilraba was/is brand ambassador for Italian high fashion house Dolce & Gabbana in Asia Pacific region in early 2018, P&G's Whisper and Sprite, L'oreal Paris, P&G's Rejoice in China and Southeast Asia, and OPPO in China and Malaysia.

Just name of few Uyghurs who have "survived CPC genocide."

Btw, here is an twitter account I stumbled on Carl Zha with lots of contents about Xinjiang, who obviously was from Xinjiang but now study (work?) in US. He just did a #Podcast Feature on current #Uyghur issue in China "EP#55 Trouble on the Silk Road: Real Situation of Uyghurs in China". Maybe some of you interested to listen to it. (Confess: I haven't listen to it).

b re-posted one of his article at MOA

Posted by: mali | Sep 11, 2018 2:58:33 PM | 77

"This short list of prominent Uyghur intellectuals, artists and athletes who we know have been detained is only the tip of the iceberg, but it demonstrates that the scope of the campaign has gone well beyond the religious sphere."

FP: China’s Mass Internment Camps Have No Clear End in Sight: "Smartphone owners are required to install government spyware that reports on content stored in the phone"..."Under Chen Quanguo, Xinjiang’s top official since August of 2016, state policy treats all Uighurs as likely opponents of the party"..."All known cases of Uighurs returning to China in the last year have resulted in the returnee’s disappearance."

Really nice aerial photo collection: Detention Camp Construction is Booming in Xinjiang also estimates one large prison camp with 8 dorms, half-a-square-km in area, should hold ~10,000 people.

Posted by: Imagine | Sep 11, 2018 4:48:46 PM | 78

One of my favorite Uyghur pop/rock musician Perhat Khaliq, I came to know him through this Uyghur song "Mother" in The Voice of China in 2014, which brought him fame and wide audience across whole China. He and his wife (also a member of his band Qetiq ) performed in Urumqi, Xinjiang Izlidim - Uyghur Song (Sorry for the quality but definitely worth listening.)

You have the traditional Uyghur songs and dances in Xinjiang: Uyghur Folk Song-Gulyarxan . You also get Uyghur Kids Winning Gold and Silver in International Competition of Irish Stepping Dance (PS. Jury with white vest and white shirt is Nigermaidi Zechmaitop mentioned @77, the jury next him with black/red stripe sweater is called Sa Beining, another top anchorman in CCTV, Hui - another Muslim ethnicity in China. )

From above videos you can see Uyghur people wear colorful clothing and famous for their music and dancing. Uyghur used to believe and practice Sufism, a tolerate branch of Islam. But due to the heavy Saudi investment (building of mosques) and influence (Wahhabism) of the past 30+ years, Uyghur people in the villages and small towns/cities were/are forbidden to dance and sing at their weddings, females were/are required to wear black niqab; even in the big city like Urumqi, there are this Wahhabism-leaning Uyghur men would threaten and/or harass women for wearing short skirts (even the typical colorful Uyghur clothing) and/or for not covering their heads.

There are 40,000 mosques in China and 30 - 40 million muslims (10 ethnicities in China are muslim incl. Uyghur); - ( in comparison, Iran has 40,000 mosques with a population of 80 million), of which 10,000 are in Kashgar with a population of 4.5 million. (VOA reports there are 2,000 mosques in Kyrgyzstan with a population of 6 million; this ratio is deemed at dangerous point.)

Btw, France "only" has 2,300 mosques, Britain "only" 1,500 mosques.

Posted by: mali | Sep 11, 2018 5:24:34 PM | 79

@james 76

"i am curious if you believe this wahabbi death cult is a plight on the planet?" It's not a "death cult", in general I consider their "killing rate" to be less than many other revolutionary movements, particularly Communist ones, which are the worst, but no, I am no fan. Wahhabism is an extreme ideology promulgated by the Saudis and the Windsors to zombify children to act as their proxy armies.

"do you think some of these uyghurs have been indoctrinated into this cult and are intent on performing similar tasks as what isis and friends have provided to iraq and syria?" I'm sure quite a number have. Which is why I was asking, but nobody can answer, how many Uyghurs are indeed being "re-educated"? I have no issue at all at deprogramming a Wahabist extremist, indeed that is the humane way to handle them if you can (same for Communists), but, I do not believe there are millions of these extremists in Xianjang to I am asking if the scale of the internment is anywhere near what the (often lying and unreliable) NY Times claims.

Posted by: CalDre | Sep 11, 2018 7:19:57 PM | 80

Seems there are a lot of CPOC comrades posting here.

Here is a history of the Uyghurs that none of them has presented: https://uyghuramerican.org/about-uyghurs

I am sure they will claim it is CIA propaganda, and not nearly as good as their ChiCom propaganda.

Frankly I don't know the truth, and don't have hundreds of hours to figure it out. But I have a little "short-cut". I'm only wondering if it is in fact millions of Uyghurs or just a few thousand that have been detained.

The answer to that much smaller question, in all likelihood, also answers the much larger one.

Posted by: CalDre | Sep 11, 2018 7:28:27 PM | 81

@Red Ryder 75

"Take a long pause. Breathe deeply. A small number of Uyghurs have been radicalized. And most of the majority is doing just fine, prospering in Xinjiang."

That kind of condescending "response" gets you a vote of credibility of zero - none - NADA.

"Check Tibet to see how the bad Commies straightened out that society.... People were treated as animals by the monks. It was a great liberation from Feudalism. Tibet now has the highest rate of economic growth in China."

Now Tibet is something I know more about. Yes Tibet was "backward" in 1949, but so was China, and as bad as Tibet was, it did not compare to Mao's "Cultural Revolution" etc., about which you mention nothing. Your Chinese flag-waving "response" gets you another vote of credibility of zero - none - NADA. Yes there is CIA propaganda, but then there is ChiCom propaganda. You seem to one of those ChiCom propagandists. Bye.

Posted by: CalDre | Sep 11, 2018 7:37:30 PM | 82

@79 caldre... thanks.. we are in the same boat then with regard to the numbers involved in china.. i call it a death cult, because that is how i see it.. they represent a fanatical ideology reflected in the ksa/uae which ironically the usa, uk, israel and etc are all fine with.. i would like to see it differently, but i don't.. and, i know of no other ideology on the planet at present that is reflected in the actions of isis / al qaeda and etc so well as this same wahabbi mindset which continues to plague the world.. communism is really lagging in the race at this point as i see it.. capitalism is fairing much better if one thinks the usa represents capitalism.. it is mostly wars, wars and more wars coming from the usa with all the unnecessary death and mayhem that goes with it..

Posted by: james | Sep 11, 2018 7:47:08 PM | 83

@james 82

"i call it a death cult, because that is how i see it.. they represent a fanatical ideology"

So does Communism. Wahhabists count their victims in the thousands, maybe 100,000s; Communists count their victims in the millions, maybe 100,000,000s. Both are by and large totalitarian, but in one respect Wahhabism is better: while Wahhabists are not Islamic, they claim to be, so they are somewhat limited in what they can do by the Quran, it can only be spun so much. But, Communists have no such limitation - their totalitarian rule has no constraints.

"capitalism is fairing much better if one thinks the usa represents capitalism.. it is mostly wars, wars and more wars coming from the usa with all the unnecessary death and mayhem that goes with it.."

US economy is not capitalist in the classic sense, it is oligarchic/monopolistic, crony capitalism. And the wars don't come from the capitalists as much as the Bolshevik/Trotskyite (and of course Zionist) neo-cons who have invaded and infested the US government after they fled USSR during perestroika; they also largely control the US media, including NY Times and WashingtonPost, ABC/CBS/NBC/PBS/etc., etc., etc. Virtually all of the US wars I attribute to Bolshevism/Communism, and not capitalism.

Posted by: CalDre | Sep 11, 2018 8:16:29 PM | 84

@83 caldre.. we have a different perspective on communism and capitalism, but then maybe no country is a true representative of any of these ideologies, and it is all we have to work with in trying to understand the world better..

what you say seems to be coming out of an axe to grind with communism, and anything connected to russian history.. i am not sure it is a fair picture you paint, but at the same time you seem to let the usa off the hook in everything too, lol...

Posted by: james | Sep 11, 2018 8:23:40 PM | 85

@james 84

"but then maybe no country is a true representative of any of these ideologies"

Indeed, the Bolshevik media and government Deep State are not free market capitalists, that is not their ideology. The US economy may still be capitalistic in part but that does not mean the ideology of those who control the war machine and the war propaganda share that "ideology", if capitalism can be called that.

"what you say seems to be coming out of an axe to grind with communism, and anything connected to russian history"

That is your idiotic, non-fact based, speculation, and in fact isn't true.

"at the same time you seem to let the usa off the hook in everything too"

Proving the profound depths of your illusions and idiotic assumptions/accusations. You just make shit up and throw it out there. You, like deng and Red Ryder, have absolutely zero integrity, honor or truth in your body. You just throw out insults at those who beat you with facts.

Posted by: CalDre | Sep 11, 2018 8:50:16 PM | 86

hey caldre... i am sorry you feel that way.. i told you what it seems like to me... you are welcome to disagree and / or educate me..

it seems odd that those who engage in a conversation with you come in for derision so easily.. i think that says something about you, but i can't always be wrong..

Posted by: james | Sep 11, 2018 8:54:30 PM | 87

"it seems odd that those who engage in a conversation with you come in for derision so easily"

It seems odd that commentators immediately resort to ad hominem attacks, speculations and accusations. I.e., lack honor, integrity, and honesty. But the US mass media is also like this, they set the standard.

"i think that says something about you"

Indeed, it does, I don't tolerate bullies. Keep the conversation on point, don't make accusations as if you know me, particularly ones that go directly against the few things I have written. Don't let your primitive paradigms of what other people think infect your thinking and acting. In short, grow up and think.

Posted by: CalDre | Sep 11, 2018 9:28:05 PM | 88

CalDre @68

Take a good look at Maracatu @48 & @36, who is a Western social scientist who just visited the region (travelling to Ürümqi, Kashgar, Turpan, and Dunhuang - the latter actually in western Gansu Province), you may get some real sense of what is going on in Xinjiang regarding Uyghur.

Debsisdead, you may also want to take a look of Maracatu's personal impression about Xinjiang and CPC's treatment of Uyghur there. It's a shame he/she took time to write two posts basing on his/her recent experience in Xinjiang but none of you guys pay much attention to.

Red Ryder @17

Actually, more than 197 killed during the terrorist attack on July 5th, 2009; Of 154 identified dead ones: 134 Han Chinese, 11 Hui muslims, 10 Uyghurs, 1 Manchu ) and more than 1700 injured (absolute majority were Han Chinese), 331 shops burnt down, 627 buses/cars/jeeps/trucks/police cars burnt. It took place from 20:00 till early morning the next day.

Yeah, this was not organized terrorist attack but "brave Uyghur people rising up against the CPC/Han Chinese oppressors"......Image if this had happened in London, Paris and Berlin, how the MSM would have reported and how some of you would have reacted.

Since the Western MSM was/is typically SO biased and engaged to disinformation as it has been doing with Russia/Syria/Iran, please use google to read some of the serious Uyghur terrorist attacks in China if you want to know what's actually happened:

- Urumqi Terror Attacks on July 5th, 2009

- Kunming Railway Station Terror Attack on March 1st, 2014 (Eight Uyghur -6 males and 2 females- who wanted to join jihad in Syria but failed to cross the border to reach Thailand- went to railway station wielding knives killing 29 and injuring 143 with typical jihadi execution method: slitting the throats and chopping the heads. Another 9 suspects were later identified by Indonesian police in Indonesia, of which 4 were arrested , 3 ran into the forest, 2 ran to Malaysia. )

Urumqi Morning Market Bombing on May 22nd, 2014 (Five Uyghur terrorists drove two cars into the early morning market and threw self-made bombs killed 39 and injured 94. Sounds familiar like the Nice and Berlin terror truck rampages in 2016?)

I'll spare you the big or small scale terror attacks such as Urumqi Railway Station terror attack(30.04.2014), Yarkant County terror attack (28.7.2014), Hotan police station hostage (28.06.2013), Tiananmen Square suicide car bomb(28.10.2013), etc.

That's why now you see the big blocks are put in front the free/farm markets, ubiquitous camera in public place, security screens in front of department stores, public buildings, subways, which then are reported/twisted by MSM as the proofs of CPC's authoritarian/colonial control and oppression of Uyghur people.

Posted by: mali | Sep 11, 2018 11:02:29 PM | 89

CalDre @80

So, anyone who post his/her opinions that are different to yours are "CPOC comrades" posting here. :D

Omer Kanat (Vice President) of https://uyghuramerican.org/about-uyghurs is also Chairman of the Executive Committee of The World Uyghur Congress (WUC) :

/BLOCKQUOTE>The World Uyghur Congress (WUC) expresses its sincere appreciation for the National Endowment for Democracy funding tof its human rights works because such funding helps WUC to further promote human rights and democracy among the Uyghur people in the world.

“NED funding means a lot to us and the Uyghur people. I am more than grateful for their decision to fund what we do,” said Erkin Alptekin, WUC president.t

NED is a CIA frontman, I think everyone here know it. So, what kind of organization of Uyghuramerican.org under WUC's Chairman of the Executive Committee could be?

Posted by: mali | Sep 11, 2018 11:27:35 PM | 90

@Mali 88, 89

"So, anyone who post his/her opinions that are different to yours are "CPOC comrades" posting here. :D"

Always some reductionism, eh ;) It's not so hard to tell when folks are partisan, like say trying to defend the Communist (or Democrat or Social Democrat) Party from perceived attack, versus truth-seekers. I think this holds generally over human populations.

"So, what kind of organization of Uyghuramerican.org under WUC's Chairman of the Executive Committee could be?"

NED is definitely not a CIA frontman, but is a tool of US foreign policy / propaganda. That doesn't make the claims on that page false though - that is a red herring. And in this case it's not even this group so funded, but some somewhat related group, in that they have one common officer, who does not control either group. Grasp at straws much? See, now you also strike me as a CPOC comrade - an illogical partisan.

Also I do not believe US is out to "get" China, like it is out to get Iran, Russia, and Syria. US has a massive trade deficit with China, and is constantly giving its most high tech technology to China. Do you see this happening in Iran, Russia or Syria? Now or ever? No, obviously not. In fact China and US are extremely close and allied. So your aspersions based on some fancied relationship to CIA is particularly non-sensical.

Indeed based on your argument I should not believe Maracatu (even assuming this is a real person who has no agenda, none of which is obvious from an anonymous blog comment, I am more looking for proof from some truly independent source that puts his/her name behind the observations made), as he was only allowed to see what CPOC permitted him to see. How many remote villages was he allowed to, and did he, visit? Unsupervised? All those alleged terror attacks at Baidu you linked - wow, those are heavily censored China articles, they are all lies, right, comrade? lol It's actually an irrefutable fact that China heavily censors Baidu, whereas your alleged NED connection is speculative at best, and in any case, NED will just withhold funding if you piss it off, not send you to "re-education centers". lol. (Now please tell me about China's glorious "free press", lol.)

Based on all I've read here, particularly the Chinese propaganda, I am leaning toward the view that China is indeed severely oppressing the Uyghurs. I'll wait until I get some more credible evidence to re-assess.

Posted by: CalDre | Sep 12, 2018 12:06:16 AM | 91

@87 caldre... sorry, but i ain't buying your personal bullshit.. i have an open mind on what is happening in this part of china, but i get a bad impression on you almost from the get go... i am definitely not a bully... you might be though.. at this point, i care what you think about anything.. have a good conversation with someone else, lol..

Posted by: james | Sep 12, 2018 1:02:09 AM | 92

''don't''...

Posted by: james | Sep 12, 2018 1:02:39 AM | 93

@"james" 91

"i get a bad impression on you almost from the get go"

Yeah, I'm sure you really hate people who don't swallow your propaganda. Too bad I am not in China, you could have me "re-educated", yes, comrade?

Posted by: CalDre | Sep 12, 2018 1:32:47 AM | 94

1. The Dungan Revolt (1862–77) (wiki) involved the massacre of large numbers of Muslims in central China.

Posted by: Laguerre | Sep 9, 2018 2:51:00 PM | 5
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you sure you have correctly read the Dungan Revolt (1862–77) wiki that you provided the link in above post? According to the wiki:

... according to historical records from the era, bamboo poles were bought in large quantities by the Hui to make spears as weaponry. Moreover, there had already been attacks on Han counties prior to the Shengshan bamboo incident. The conflict eventually led to large-scale massacres of Han and non-Muslim Chinese. A recorded 20.77 million population reduction in Shaanxi and Gansu occurred due to migration and war related death.

Do you know why the Hui rebels who fled westwards and then settled in Russia Empire/USSR/today's -stans call themselves Dungan? Dung means Dong (East) in Chinese, referring to the place they came from 'cause Shaanxi, Gansu and Qinghai are to the Eastern. They keep on speaking Shaanxi and Gansu Chinese dialects and a lot of Chinese traditions. Today upon their request, China send teachers to teach their children Chinese.

2. Please take a look at the map where Uyghur Khaganate lies between 9th century: it was in the position of today's Mongolia more or less, and far far far away from today's Uyghur heartland (South Xinjiang). After the demise of the Uyghur Kgagnate in 847, it started to move westwards to Xinjiang,


3. Uyghur had been Buddhist before converted to Islam after 11th century. For example, Hotan, the heartland of today's Uyghur, used to be a fervently Buddhist city-state boasting some 400 temples in the late 9th/early 10th century


4. Get some flavor of East Turkestan independence movement:

"If you do not wage jihad, you will never be able to get rid of the oppression of the infidels which makes you abandon the religion and which makes slaves of you. Thus, you will not be able to be rescued from the oppression of this world and the torments of the hereafter, or find eternal happiness until you return to the religion of Allah. . ." – Abdul Haq (Memetiming Memeti), a commander in the Uyghur separatist movement Turkistan Islamic Party (East Turkestan Islamic Movement), 2009.

"We have to conquer our own country and purify it of all infidels. Then, we should conquer the infidels' countries and spread Islam. The infidels who are usurping our countries have announced war against Islam and Muslims, forcing Muslims to abandon Islam and change their beliefs." – Abdullah Mansour, current leader of the Uyghur separatist movement Turkistan Islamic Party (East Turkestan Islamic Movement), 2009.

So the 10,000-20,000 Uyghur jihadist (TIP), one of the strongest jihad groups, who are occupying Jisr al-Shughour in Idlib, Syria thanks to Erdogan.

These poor Uyghur who were brainwashed by Wahhabism sold their houses and land, some believe in Jihad and TIP propaganda, some thought/think they were/are following Prophet Muhammad on Islam Hejira/Hijrah .

Posted by: mali | Sep 12, 2018 1:40:08 AM | 95

@93 caldre.. you're an asshole... easy to see, lol..

Posted by: james | Sep 12, 2018 1:50:22 AM | 96

CalDre 91

*Based on all I've read here, particularly the Chinese propaganda, [sic]
I am leaning toward the view that China is indeed severely oppressing the Uyghurs. I'll wait until I get some more credible evidence to re-assess.*

Guilty until proven innocent' !

The murikkan way.

At least the CIA Uighurs head choppers get a fair trial in China.
' is the trial transparent ?', scream the insufferable murikkans.
Well, tell that to the Tens of thousands of muslim 'terrorists suspects' murdered by extra judicial executions. !

Or the Kashmiris protestors executed on the spot by the indian army .

Ever heard the CON-gress critters, the liar in chief in WH, .or 'progressives' like Caldre, ETC scream for sanction ??
Not that I know of .
Matter of fact, we keep hearing India is the natural partner to fukus, cuz they share many 'common values'.

Moral of the story....
Not all moslems are born equal.

hhhhh

Posted by: denk | Sep 12, 2018 12:55:31 PM | 97

uigher is just another minority like gays/lesbians/kurds/ukraine right wings/isis/etc. that certain countries use to interfere in other's affairs.

before it was tibet. trying to submit china with help from india in the southwest. before this it was korea from the north east. now they just drive ships off around. their strategy of submission, then changed to entanglement, then pivots, then containment, is already broke hopelessly and progressing backwards fueling china's advancement ever quicker. this so called theory of evolution should actually be called de-evolution when most ideas are viewed in a wider sense.

so they will try from the west with uighurs... but they are really similar to the kurds in a political sense...and like caldre. always unable to make a real stand on their own words because even he doesn't believe in his own rhetoric hence the changing of subjects.if the america uighur president lady believed the ideas she espoused so much why doesn't she just go suicide herself now..... this must be a let down for the small percentage of radicals there.

if china is able to pipe water into the Taklamakan and numerous deserts there. the soft power of economy and just simple fkn food sustainability will give the majority of the people there greater hope then say offing themselves for someone who hides in uighur america giving orders like she is some real president/general.

Posted by: jason | Sep 12, 2018 1:35:47 PM | 98

Sorry I meant to post the above comment to the new comments thread, please delete if you can

Posted by: Jason | Sep 12, 2018 6:43:05 PM | 99

caldre 94
*Yeah, I'm sure you really hate people who don't swallow your propaganda. Too bad I am not in China, you could have me "re-educated", yes, comrade?*

YOu;d be fine as long as you'r 'standing up' to China, Uncle sham would even give you all his blessing !


Just make sure you dont cross one of uncle buddies like Pinochet or Suharto or Modi etc..... no seal teams would come to your rescue !

Fact is, uncle would authorise your liquidation , he's that protective of his assets...[1]


[1]
A 1976 internal report of the State Department said the Chilean government "might have believed this American [Horman] could be killed without negative fallout from the US government." And, "US intelligence may have played an unfortunate part in Horman's death."

The report suggests that he was fingered for the Pinochet regime by a CIA officer undercover as a consular official.

What a lovely country eh ?

hhhhhhh

https://archive.commondreams.org/view/022500-104.htm


Posted by: denk | Sep 12, 2018 10:03:48 PM | 100

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