Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 15, 2018

The MoA Week In Review - Open Thread 2018-35

Last week's posts on Moon of Alabama:

Airbus is pissed. It was asked by May to give a dire warning about Brexit which it dutifully did. The next day May handed a big no-bid contract to Boeing.

Trump today added to turmoil he caused in Europe:

In an interview with "CBS Evening News" anchor Jeff Glor in Scotland on Saturday, President Trump named the European Union -- comprising some of America's oldest allies -- when asked to identify his "biggest foe globally right now."
"Well, I think we have a lot of foes. I think the European Union is a foe, what they do to us in trade. Now, you wouldn't think of the European Union, but they're a foe. ..."

Bashing allies is an essential component of the Trump doctrine:

The second-best self-description of the Trump Doctrine I heard was this, from a senior national-security official: “Permanent destabilization creates American advantage.” The official who described this to me said Trump believes that keeping allies and adversaries alike perpetually off-balance necessarily benefits the United States, which is still the most powerful country on Earth.
...
The best distillation of the Trump Doctrine I heard, though, came from a senior White House official with direct access to the president and his thinking. I was talking to this person several weeks ago, and I said, by way of introduction, that I thought it might perhaps be too early to discern a definitive Trump Doctrine. “No,” the official said. “There’s definitely a Trump Doctrine.” “What is it?” I asked. Here is the answer I received: “The Trump Doctrine is ‘We’re America, Bitch.’ That’s the Trump Doctrine.”

Adam Carter at Disobedient Media finds contradictions between the indictment and publicly known evidence.

M.K. Bhadrakumar mulls on the indictment timing and previews the Helsinki summit.

The U.S. foreign policy establishment, here the president of the Council of Foreign Relations, is losing it:

Richard N. Haass @RichardHaass - 21:26 UTC - 14 Jul 2018
International order for 4 centuries has been based on non-interference in the internal affairs of others and respect for sovereignty. Russia has violated this norm by seizing Crimea and by interfering in the 2016 US election. We must deal w Putin’s Russia as the rogue state it is.

Shorter: "Westphalianism for us, intervention for everyone else."

Use as open thread ...

Posted by b on July 15, 2018 at 11:16 AM | Permalink

Comments
next page »

Look East young man, look East ...

Posted by: Dave | Jul 15, 2018 12:11:03 PM | 1

There is one significant weakness to Putin's patient, restrained and reasonable response to US/NATO aggression and intimidation. While such a response sets clear boundaries against the aggressor, it has the weakness of not having anything to 'put on the table' when it comes to making a deal in negotiations.

Trump's ego rests on 'making the deal' - which is often a splashy but not very specific agreement. At this point I do not see Putin/Russia as trusting any vaguely worded assurances as those have proved 'agreement-incapable" in the past. Trump may be willing to pull out of Syria and/or recognize Crimea as Russian (via another international monitored referendum) but he needs something in return. what is it that Russia has to offer?

Given this situation, it strikes me that Lavrov's comment that 're-opening all the channels of communication would be the best that Russia could hope for' out of this upcoming summit really is the the best possible outcome for them. This means of course that Trump will be disappointed - it is hard to spin 'channels of communication' as a breakthrough. It does mean that Putin -not looking for a 'deal', will be more relaxed than Trump.

Perhaps there will be some nod towards working out an agreement on space-based weapons that Trump can take home.

Posted by: les7 | Jul 15, 2018 12:17:17 PM | 2

the makings of a somewhat reasonable deal seem to be emerging? is that really possible? Israel and Trump get to save face by claiming that they pushed Iran out of Syria. Syria gets a giant step closer to sovereignty with US troops leaving - of course, that will be fudged 100 ways, but still. Russia proves its mettle as a deal maker by pleasing everyone. Key to this is that Iran has to be given some major carrots by Russian, in the form of SCO membership, major economic deals and serious air defense systems. Syria should finally get real air defense too. As I see it, air defense is really the key to the whole deal. If Russia doesn't FINALLY go there for both Iran and Syria, then any sovereignty Syria gets will be illusory and short lived, while Iran will have been shoved into the role of being a victim by bully Russia and won't be a participant in the deal.

Let's see if Putin crafts this deal right. If he does I'll have to take back a lot of words I'll be happy to take back.

Posted by: paul | Jul 15, 2018 12:43:29 PM | 3

israel is going down the drain.knesset is legalizing Jewish settlements.graun

Posted by: dahoit | Jul 15, 2018 1:04:48 PM | 4

It seems like all the pieces on the chessboard are moving so big events must be afoot.

The Gawds of our species are fighting amongst themselves to control the changing paradigm.

Will we ever become a species not tied to a historical breeding control paradigm that has the elite families passing control of private finance and gobs of property down through the centuries?

Such is the legacy of the West. Will it continue? In what form? How can/will it evolve? Can the world exist for a bit with strong divergence of social contract? What happens when the private BIS no longer controls all international currency interchange/manipulation?

I can't wait to find these things out

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 15, 2018 1:22:56 PM | 5

I think Trump simply has a very prosaic, very sincere even, view about the world: he treats his equals equally (e.g. Putin, Xi, Kim) and his unequals unequally (NATO countries' leaders, Abe etc.).

That is, he simply views his allies for what they really are: clients. And when you go visit clients, you expect them to stop, lower their heads, listen and obey you: that's why he probably found strange the fact that the Europeans were insulted by his behavior during the NATO summit and the individual countries official visits. He must have been particularly thunderstruck over the popular protests in Scotland: from his point of view, Scotland owes everything they have now to the USA (NATO), so he, as chief of State of the USA, has every right to go there and play golf whenever he pleases to do so. And the fact is he's right to think so: the European peninsula is an American protectorate, a "subState", inhabited by second-class citizens (like the peoples of Latin status of the Roman Republic).

As for the destabilization doctrine (Trump Doctrine), it's absolutely correct: peace, right now, is nocive to the USA. That's why Russia and China are trying to descalate: peace (and time) is on their side. If the USA doesn't manage to trigger WWIII soon, it will start to eat itself up, because the world didn't recover from the 2008 meltdown. The clock is ticking for the Americans (and, by extension, for the Europeans and the Japanese).

Last, I agree completely with the theory that May is a remainer who's trying to implode brexit without appearing to do so. She was a remainer during the camapaign, that's the reason she was elected as Cameron's successor (it was she or Leadsom or Johnson, both hardcore brexiters). The British elite is holding her while it can, and she is only in office right now because she has the elite's full weight behind her: if it was a Labour MP, he/she would've already fallen.

Posted by: vk | Jul 15, 2018 1:23:01 PM | 6

Re: Haass - It says a lot that a member of the Deep State can through out such a statement without embarrassment.

His Twitter feed is getting some sass, but he knows none of that will be included when the stenos quote him.

Posted by: Bart Hansen | Jul 15, 2018 1:26:12 PM | 7

@ Bart Hansen | 7

This prompts the sophomoric observation that one can't spell "Haass" without "ass".

Posted by: Ort | Jul 15, 2018 1:31:05 PM | 8

Item 38 from the Mueller Indictment:
“On or about June 8, 2016, and at approximately the same time that the dcleaks.com website was launched, the Conspirators created a DCLeaks Facebook page using a preexisting social media account under the fictitious name “Alice Donovan.”

Why would the GRU use the “Alice Donovan” persona - a presumed asset already on a mission to “sow chaos” within independent oppositional media - to publicize its alleged intelligence operation website?

It seems like all of this is a series of overlapping multi-faceted sting operations, with multiple purposes, coordinated through a single source - perhaps that Perkins Cole law office.

Posted by: jayc | Jul 15, 2018 1:36:15 PM | 9

For those who do not know. What a wisdoms of previous leaders of France and UK insisting that their nuclear deterant was outside NATO military structures while they were scolded why would they want to keeps control separately from NATO.

Because they always had two enemies not one.

Do not expect regime change in Paris or London unles new French Revolution comes.

Posted by: Kalen | Jul 15, 2018 1:38:53 PM | 10

1

"If you have a straw, and I have a straw, here it is, and my straw reaches aaaaaal the way to your milkshake, I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE! I DRINK IT UP!"

Britain, Ecuador in ‘High-Level’ Talks to Evict Julian Assange from Embassy and Extradite to Gitmo to Serve Life Sentence for 'Espionage'

"Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."

Especially NRA and CFR, lol.

Posted by: Chipher | Jul 15, 2018 1:41:21 PM | 11

There is one significant weakness to Putin's patient, restrained and reasonable response to US/NATO aggression and intimidation...
...
Posted by: les7 | Jul 15, 2018 12:17:17 PM | 2

Huh?!
If you watch the last 8 minutes of Episode 3 of Oliver Stone's Putin Interviews it'll cure you of the habit of confusing Putin's "Our Partners" diplo-speak with the hair-raising reality experienced by the crew of the Donald Cook in the Black Sea a couple of years ago. It'll also dissuade you from imagining that Putin/Russia has a 'weak' or 'reasonable' attitude toward NATO military provocations.

Imo Trump would have either watched them himself or been briefed on their contents by someone who has.

There are many links to the series on the www. Here's one to Ep 3...
https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/965043267630/the-putin-interviews

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 15, 2018 1:48:15 PM | 12

Even if I get Moscow as 'retribution,' critics will say it's not good enough - Trump
https://www.rt.com/usa/433263-trump-putin-summit-expectations/

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 15, 2018 1:53:20 PM | 13

Trump is acting out the good cop bad cop role all in one. He comes in with slashing attacks and praise. The media only prints the slashing attacks. By placing his adversaries off balance he seeks to gain something. I would say that he is operating like a corporate raider. The weak kneed euro leaders just do not know how to handle this stuff.

He will not try that with Putin because he respects him. Putin is operating with a weak hand and he cannot and will not take on the Europe on his borders conventionally when he can possibly get what he wants in time with no bloodshed. Libya is his next target.

Putin and his family are from Stalingrad and Putin will cut off the head of the Snake (US) before he lets that happen again. How? Think bright glowing mushroom clouds. It is that serious.

Trump wants to bring Russia back into Europe. The Anglo Europeans want more control over Russia's vast resources and companies that control them. Offering then a role in NATO would be genius.

Putin is being conflated into an enemy of the world by a mass propaganda campaign. Crimea and Ukraine was NATO pushing to hard to make Putin act with aggression. Crimea fell without a shot being fired. As an independent republic full of Russians it can choose who it wants to affiliate with.

All in all this can be solved diplomatically but not by the current crop of deep state diplomats.

Posted by: dltravers | Jul 15, 2018 2:51:52 PM | 15

Dear Khazarian Haas:
That rogue state was just visited for a month by 1.5 million foreign guests at the World Cup.
They know the truth.

Your word will be drowned out by millions upon millions of persons from a hundred+ nations who understand Russia is a great, calm, responsible nation that just hosted the greatest sporting event in history.

They are making videos and doing Instagrams and FB and Twitter videos and telling stories of how wonderful and beautiful Russians and Russia are.

You lose. Humanity won.

Posted by: Red Ryder | Jul 15, 2018 3:14:26 PM | 16

There are two different realitys at play here! How trump and America perseves America, that reality is delusional.
The other reality is how the rest of the world perseves America and trump! Doors are slamming closed. Once someone gets a reputation for cheating at cards what game is going to welcome them !
A while ago someone (I forget who mentioned) that the 15th of August would be a significant date ! We're here, trump heading for Russia talks with Putin. I notice Israle stepping up it's aggression on the Golan heights. I agree the pieces on the chese board are moving! We all need to stand strong against the trump dictator ! It's now or never !
Ps we had 250,000 people turn up for the anti-trump protest in London and another 250,000 round the country. Half a million. That's a door slamming.

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 15, 2018 3:20:42 PM | 17

Posted by: vk | Jul 15, 2018 1:23:01 PM | 6

:-))

Nice try.

Trump did not call the EU a client, he called them a foe.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 15, 2018 3:29:50 PM | 18

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 15, 2018 3:20:42 PM | 16

Germans say Russia is more reliable than the United States"

Germans increasingly see Russia as a more reliable partner than the US, a new study released on Saturday has found.

The poll of 1,004 people by research institute Infratest dimap showed that 28 percent of respondents felt Moscow was a reliable partner, compared to 25 percent for Washington.
...
Whereas 25 percent of Germans had confidence in Russian President Vladimir Putin, only 11 had confidence in US President Donald Trump.

Another door slamming.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 15, 2018 3:51:10 PM | 19

Posted by: somebody | Jul 15, 2018 3:29:50 PM | 17

To sum up: I think Trump lacks civilitas.

Civilitas was a principle institutionalized by Marcus Ulpius Traianus (the Roman emperor) that stated that the emperor should speak to the Senate as if they were equals -- even though they were not. This virtue came from the principle that you could appease the masses (in this case the Senate) in exchange for a little bit of dignity.

And that was exactly how the USA treated Europe and Japan during the Cold War until Obama: by speaking to them diplomatically, i.e. as if they were equals ("allies") when in fact they are client States. Trump removed this façade of civilitas.

Posted by: vk | Jul 15, 2018 3:59:18 PM | 20

Vk @ 19 Sounds like another card trick, thanks but no thanks

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 15, 2018 4:09:14 PM | 21

This story seems to get slowly picked up. I do not know how reliable the daily caller is, but if this story is true this definitely would add a new turn to the whole Russia-Gate story: Gohmert: Watchdog Found Clinton Emails Were Sent To ‘Foreign Entity’ and Gomhmert specifies that the foreign entity is NOT Russia. It looks like the SMS ist avoiding this story, even though it came up in the Strzok Hearing in Congress.

Posted by: Fran | Jul 15, 2018 4:23:11 PM | 22

Fran 21 "but if this story is true"
The hearing is on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXTAlUormPA

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 15, 2018 4:30:45 PM | 23

Thanks for the link Peter AU. This Strzok seems to be a little creepy, makes me think he could be a charakter out of a Stephen King story.

Posted by: Fran | Jul 15, 2018 4:43:34 PM | 24

19

Definition of "client state"

a country that is economically, politically, or militarily dependent on another country

Neither Europe nor Japan depend economically, politically or militarily on the United States.

The US run a trade deficit with Europa as well as with Japan.

You would expect a debtor to be polite to the creditor :-))

Posted by: somebody | Jul 15, 2018 4:51:09 PM | 25

client state:

A client state is a state that is economically, politically, or militarily subordinate to another more powerful state in international affairs.

That fit EU very well. They are indeed a client to the US. No wonder Trump treat EU like the way he do, EU could whine but they are to be blamed for this dumb relationship.

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 15, 2018 5:03:31 PM | 26

Haass.
He's a favorite of Bill Maher, too. Birds of a feather poop (on us) together. Beware the smarmy misinfo from those in-crowd pretenders. The hypocrisy and the lack of the voice of the people are disgusting.

Posted by: Curtis | Jul 15, 2018 5:10:21 PM | 27

Thanks Fran @21, 23, I felt really uncomfortable watching Strzok as he was fully charged wth arrogance and invincibility. I feel certain that will crumble as certain 'I do not recall' responses unravell. Gohmert is a mighty interesting congresscritter though. He has certainly let a dangerous cat out of the bag. Who else was briefed on this 'foreign entity' destination on all (?) of Hillaries emails. Rosenstein perhaps? And what did they do?

Gohmert might explain to us all how he knows this took place. More fun at the circus while Trump wastes Putin's time and ours. Good luck Vladimir and dont wear that watch or rings when you shake the bufoons hand.

Posted by: flamingo | Jul 15, 2018 5:15:03 PM | 28

"rattled allies once more by labelling the European Union a "foe" with regard to trade"

Economic hegemony and soft power (running large trade deficits are just one form of soft power) are gone. Trump and the Trump admin are looking at the world with the pre WWII mindset.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 15, 2018 5:16:26 PM | 29

Pre WWI mindset perhaps not right. Great power mindset similar to pre WWII, but taking into account the realities of todays world.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 15, 2018 5:20:11 PM | 30

In my view the May regime in Britain is close to collapsing, without good prospect of replacement.

OK Trump may be an idiot, but his remarks have their effect. The contradictions of Brexit are coming out into the open. You can't have open access to the European single market, and still not pay to be a member of the club.

As the Brits don't want to do that, the only choices are empty supermarket shelves or withdrawing article 50. The EU will agree to the withdrawal of article 50, but only if it's genuine and not a precursor to a further round of withdrawal.

It's a major existential crisis. I don't know how it's going to be resolved. I don't know that a further round of fudge is going to work.

Posted by: Laguerre | Jul 15, 2018 5:21:48 PM | 31

Trump's remarks in themselves are not catastrophic. i'm sure that Merkel can resist them, for example. But for the Brits they're regime changing. May's position is so weak.

Posted by: Laguerre | Jul 15, 2018 5:39:02 PM | 32

Laguerre 31
GCHQ seemed to have played a big part in the golden showers dossier. I think the Brits will come to regret that.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 15, 2018 5:45:04 PM | 33

@2 Les7 "There is one significant weakness to Putin's patient, restrained and reasonable response to US/NATO aggression and intimidation. While such a response sets clear boundaries against the aggressor, it has the weakness of not having anything to 'put on the table' when it comes to making a deal in negotiations."

I disagree. Putin's reasonable and restrained response to NATO aggression, coupled with Russia's real progress on the ground, means that Trump, not Putin, has nothing to bring to the table in negotiations. If you actually mean that Putin has no more fig leaves to offer the U.S. to get them to pull out with honour, that is the fault of the United States. I'm sure they will 'make a deal' and make it smell right for the American electorate.

Posted by: Activist Potato | Jul 15, 2018 6:08:05 PM | 34

It looks to me as if the uk and America are in there own indevidual ways, heading for mass coqnative dissonance that's a euthumism for major internal conflict. Both country's will be come increasingly irelivent, and a good thing to.
But of course the important thing is to follow the money! It's not the uk or us public it's the 1% ! We'v Been assist stripped by those people, transcending borders (ironically). We need to focus our attention on them and there/ our money without distraction or victim blaming..

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 15, 2018 6:19:58 PM | 35

The anti Iran propaganda seems to have stepped up a notch.
Fox News (WSJ)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/apps/g/page/world/the-iran-files/2314/
WaPo
https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/iran-had-bomb-making-technology/2018/07/15/id/871784/

Running a search Iran+News, brings this up as being pushed onto the media over the last few days. WMD 2.0
Use Iran as a search term in twitter and a massive propaganda campaign shows up, similar to those used in against Syria when the jihadists were being wiped out in Aleppo and Ghouta.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 15, 2018 6:26:12 PM | 36

Trump's criticism of May will have the opposite effect to what foreigners think - Trump has strengthened May and probably made Boris Johnson unelectable as PM, but that could be what Trump wants. Great Britain in Europe has always been more valuable to Washington than Great Britain outside Europe and the moronic Brexiters have forgotten that

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Jul 15, 2018 6:43:58 PM | 37

"In a wartime speech of march 1865, Blaine, as a disciple of the New England Protectionists, had cleverly pointed out that the protective tariff was a form of taxation which, while bringing in large revenues to the government, would "leave the burden...inappreciable to the public." Thereafter a pertinacious propaganda, fostered by Hocrace Greeley in the powerful New York Tribune, spread the gospel of tariff taxation as "the most patriotic way." The protective tariff in time became consecrated in the speech of the Republican Party ideologues as the "historic American system," although such a system had been stoutly resisted by the American people during most of the three score and ten years of their history before 1860. Indeed, Thad Stevens himself, out of regard for the sentiment of the farm population, had tactfully opposed fresh increases of the tariff in 1866. But with the sweeping victory of 1868 behind them, the Protectionists returned to the fray, asserting that they sought primarily "the protection of American wages", while elaborate plans for elevating the tariff level to new notches were laid in 1869. When certain Moderate Republicans, noting important but scattered protest from farming communities and importing merchants, proposed mild downward revisions of the tarriff schedules, Protectionists like Kelly and bingham retorted with fury, habitually accusing their opponents of being friends of "British" or "rebel" Free Trade doctrines."

Politicos 1865-1896 by Matthew Josephson (published 1938)

Posted by: Guerrero | Jul 15, 2018 6:46:22 PM | 38

The oligarchs own the world. They rule with the help of the top professional 10% (Democrats – New Labor). This includes all the western democracies. However, China and Russia governments can still jail their Rich if provoked sufficiently. Donald Trump acts like what he is; a billionaire. His problem is he is too old, befuddled and can’t read. He thought he was taking a step up to run the world. After all, since 2008 the wealthy have had a green light to exploit the little people and the environment as they want. He thought he would be the world CEO. Except. he has no PR or HR staff; only his family. The other Global Oligarchs can’t stand his usurping of their powers to create chaos, poverty and debt to get richer. The Elite will see that he goes. The question is will it cause a second American Civil War or not.

Posted by: VietnamVet | Jul 15, 2018 7:33:06 PM | 39

Ghost Ship@36. If EU is to be a future "foe" as Trump says, at least economically then getting our Uncle Britain out of the EU beforehand makes sense since we serve the Crown (city of London) and family comes first. I doubt Trump cares if May or Boris is in so long as its a hard BREXIT. The City will decide

UK is not part of the Eurozone, and NATO does not require UK to be members of the EU, so their membership only impacts trade with EU which is of little consequence to US. Also EU regulations for member states could threaten the UK tax havens down the road, which are important assets for covert operations and the keeping the ruling elites tax burden to a minimum

Posted by: Pft | Jul 15, 2018 7:37:26 PM | 40

When watching Trump in action these 6 chaos negotiating strategies taken from Chines proverbs should be pondered

1 Remove the firewood under the cooking pot

When faced with an enemy too powerful to engage directly you must first weaken him by undermining his foundation and attacking his source of power.

2 Catch a fish while the water is disturbed

Before engaging your enemy's forces create confusion to weaken his perception and judgement. Do something unusual, strange, and unexpected as this will arouse the enemy's suspicion and disrupt his thinking. A distracted enemy is thus more vulnerable.

3 Slough off the cicada's shell

When you are in danger of being defeated, and your only chance is to escape and regroup, then create an illusion. While the enemy's attention is focused on this artifice, secretly remove your men leaving behind only the facade of your presence.

4 Shut the door to catch the thief

If you have the chance to completely capture the enemy then you should do so thereby bringing the battle or war to a quick and lasting conclusion.

To allow your enemy to escape plants the seeds for future conflict.

But if they succeed in escaping, be wary of giving chase.

5 Befriend a distant state while attacking a neighbour

It is known that nations that border each other become enemies while nations separated by distance and obstacles make better allies.

When you are the strongest in one field, your greatest threat is from the second strongest in that field, not the strongest from another field.

6 Obtain safe passage to conquer the State of Guo

Borrow the resources of an ally to attack a common enemy. Once the enemy is defeated, use those resources to turn on the ally that lent you them in the first place.

Posted by: Pft | Jul 15, 2018 7:43:06 PM | 41

Pft 40
Those six - Sun Tzu? - are a good take on Trump

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 15, 2018 7:50:02 PM | 42

The people with the guns, the rank and file in the U.S. military and the police, are by and large Trump supporters.

Posted by: lysias | Jul 15, 2018 8:54:08 PM | 43

psychohistorian 5

I can't wait to find these things out

I had an uncle who was a farmer all his life, born in 1910, died in 2000. Toward his end--and he had certainly witnessed many changes in his life--he said something similar, that his only regret was that he would miss finding out what would happen next.

Posted by: sleepy | Jul 15, 2018 9:22:52 PM | 44

Peter AU1. Not Sun Tzu but proverbs from the same era. I had copied them from a link which seems broken now

Posted by: Pft | Jul 15, 2018 9:32:31 PM | 45

"..In my view the May regime in Britain is close to collapsing, without good prospect of replacement."
Let us hope so. The only replacement in current circumstances would be a coalition of remain Tories, Blairites and others including perhaps the SNP.
Failing that, which is to be hoped for, there would be a General Election from which Labour would emerge victorious and engage in a serious effort to disentangle the UK from the EU and neo-liberalism and neo-con foreign policy more generally.
You will, Laguerre @30, I hope, forgive me for objecting to your characterisation of those who voted against the EU as 'morons.
You might recall that, when given the opportunity to vote on the 'reforms' to the EU which cemented its neo-liberal character not only the French but the Dutch and Irish electorates rejected them.
Unless one is a member of the privileged elites in the EU the only 'morons' are those who support an institution which consistently works against the interests of the working class, the poor and the vulnerable.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 15, 2018 9:34:21 PM | 46

sleepy | Jul 15, 2018 9:22:52 PM | 43

I have often thought along that same line; I'll miss the next chapter...

Posted by: V | Jul 15, 2018 9:54:18 PM | 47

@ sleepy with their response to my curiosity about humanity's future

Having been hit by a truck I wake to pain every day and so having an active curiosity about the (d)evolution of our species provides a useful focus for me.

I was just coming back from a bit of surfing the intertubes and thinking more. Surfing the intertubes in America one is struck by how much brainwashing is in evidence around the Russia situation. It is amazing to me sometimes how effectively the elites can turn one faction of the 99% against each another from behind their curtain. And all the while each of the factions rails about the elite but falls prey to their tools of brainwashing and propaganda....sigh If the 99% would ever get beyond the brainwashing to see that all factions of the 99% agree on getting rid of private finance (the elite)

Another observation I am having is that America and the EU are being set up for a Shock Doctrine type of event. For those that have not read Nomi Kleins book about the financial rape of South America in the past 70 years, I encourage you to do so. It explains how the Freidman Chicago school of economics gave US empire tools for putting the stamp of private Central Bank, an oligarchy, ongoing inheritance and necessary corruption of government and military on most South America countries while insuring crippling debt.

In America/EU the Shock Doctrine goal, as I see it, is to reduce/eliminate the social safety nets and general economic security to the point where social control is directed toward the military model. Think about what it means to have Americans stop consuming on a daily basis the huge percentage of resources that they do currently. That adjustment is going to take place whether war happens or not but the time frame may stretch out or shrink to a year. As part of the scenario the US defaults on its debt and everyone loses but the elite that have positioned themselves as they always have above the fray.....will it be different this time? I hope so and hope to see it happen....at least the beginning.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 15, 2018 9:54:29 PM | 48

#47
The uber rich only believe they're above the fray in the great unraveling.
Their's is a temporary respite, as their fiat existence goes to zero.
Indiginous peoples close to their spirits will ultimately fair the best, imo...

Posted by: V | Jul 15, 2018 10:04:09 PM | 49

fare

Posted by: V | Jul 15, 2018 10:16:30 PM | 50

psychohistorian 48

I recently watched a lecture by Zbigniew Brzezinski at an American university on foreign policy and the state of the world. When it came to Russia, he had blind cultural hatred of Russia. Nuclear armed gas station type thing.
I see he gives a lot of lectures at US universities.
In a separate 2017 interview he said Ukraine was making faster and better reforms than Russia. This was not knowing propaganda that he did not believe himself. He fully believes this crap. This is what is being taught in US higher education under name of political science and so forth. This is the Obama/Clinton hate Russia camp.

On the other hand, you have the likes of Kissinger who does not have the anti Russia bias, they are blinded by Israel and have that blind hatred towards Iran. Kissinger simply does not see the Sunni terrorist groups as terrorist because they do not attack Israel. To them it is the Shia groups who are a threat to Israel, though to no other country in the world, that are the terrorists. This is why Iran is a state sponsor of terrorism rather than Saudi Arabia. This is the Trump camp.

Both Kissinger and Zbig give lectures and talks at US universities so the "educated"/political class in the US have a really fucked up mindset.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 15, 2018 10:31:19 PM | 51

@5 pscyhohistorian... that makes 2 of us...

@30 laguerre... i am not sure that even if the may regime collapses, it is going to mean what you think.. there is a lot of vested interest in maintaining the status quo - something that the idea of brexit has upended.. and i tend to see it as @45 bevin and don't share your characterization of those who voted against being in the eu as morons.. far from it as i see it..

@34 mark2... thanks for your comments..i agree with you! i realize now english is not your first language...

@40 pft.. thanks for the quotes.. that is from "The Thirty-Six Strategies" a Chinese collection of 36 proverbs commented as militaristic tactics. Often attributed to Sun Tzu, this is generally rejected by scholars since Sun Tzu lived during the Spring and Autumn Period of China, while most of the 36 proverbs postdate that. It is believed by many to have been written by Zhuge Liang of the Three Kingdoms period. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Thirty-Six_Strategies

@47pschohistorian and @ 50 peter...

i note publius tacitus has a new post up on your topic which i think he articulates very well.. America's Russia Derangement Syndrome by Publius Tacitus

Posted by: james | Jul 15, 2018 10:36:09 PM | 52

not sure why the link for publius tacitus didn't come thru.. here it is direct..
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2018/07/americas-russia-derangement-syndrome-by-publius-tacitus.html

Posted by: james | Jul 15, 2018 10:37:29 PM | 53

US took in a lot of eastern European migrants and so called dissidents post WWII and cold war. Many would have been ordinary people starting a new life, but a good number with that cultural hatred of Russia have risen to positions of influence in the US, the reason I think for this hatred of Russia. Zbig, Polish emigre, even now makes no distinction whatsoever between Soviet Union and present day Russia.
Kissinger on the other hand is a German Jew.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 15, 2018 10:41:21 PM | 54

James
Yes, good post by PT, though I've corrected or added to his take on the plutonium disposal treaty. Will have to see how that goes as he is crankier than Pat Lang.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 15, 2018 10:45:45 PM | 55

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 15, 2018 5:03:31 PM | 25

Let's say because the EU are not client states Trump had to fake it with a reality show for his audience at home.

There will neither be BREXIT nor will Germany pay NATO, nor will North Korea get rid of their nukes.

Nor will there be a "deal" with Russia.

Europe has joined Russia and China in an attempt to save Iran from sanctions. So suddenly they have a foreign policy of their own.

Europe is vulnerable to secondary sanctions as their financial system is linked to the US, they might think about changing that. Russia has already done that.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 15, 2018 11:21:10 PM | 56

#55
Yup.

Posted by: V | Jul 15, 2018 11:41:39 PM | 57

@54 peter... crankier that pat - that's funny! mauisurfer poster on the same with a good link on the topic
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2016/10/04/moscow-suspends-plutonium-agreement-breached-by-united-states.html

Posted by: james | Jul 16, 2018 12:36:10 AM | 58

So I read the Publius Tacitus rant at SST and was going to leave a comment but am not Disqus friendly

Here is my response to Publius Tacitus at SST
"
Thanks for the rant Publius Tacitus.
I feel you are getting closer to understanding the structural problem of global private finance and their God of Mammon value system with usury and such just may not be serving humanity appropriately.
The world's military needs to understand the centuries of private finance control issue that both China and Russia represent a challenge to. This the real driver and the world's military needs to decide if they are going to evolve to be pure mercenaries or society's ongoing law and order within the best we can make of a culturally pluralistic and just world.
"

Would I get banned for my comment you SST regulars?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 16, 2018 12:58:05 AM | 59

In the near-future, the 10th Brics Summit is ‎25-27 July 2018, being held in South Africa. I don't envy Putin trying to get something/anything "firm" out of Trump tomorrow.

Tomorrow's meeting is due to conclude sometime after 2 P.M. Helsinki time ... with press conference at 4:50 p.m. local time ... according to interwebs Helsinki = UTC-3 (a bit uncertain due to daylight savings) ... My arithmetic is awful.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 16, 2018 12:58:32 AM | 60

@58 psychohistorian.. i don't think you would get banned for that.. pat will refer to your viewpoint as 'economic determinism' and give his sneer on that, but doubt much more.. remember - i am banned, so i may or may not be a good person to ask!

Posted by: james | Jul 16, 2018 1:15:36 AM | 61

@ Susan Sunflower with the UTC question

Occasionally Wikipedia is good for something

List of UTC time offsets

As I read it, if you are in the US there are 10-12 hours(daylight saving type) between Helenski and the US East/West

If my head is on straight that would put the press conference at 4:50 pm local to be 6:50 am on East coast and 3:50 am on West coast of US.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 16, 2018 1:23:29 AM | 62

james 57
I see both comments are up, so now to wait for the fallout from PT. mauisurfer was far more direct than me. I have heard Putin speaking on the subject but could not find the video. I had not read the SC article, but very similar to what I remember of Putin's views.

psychohistorian re SST The owner/bouncer would most likely knock you down and drag you away before you got close to the door :)

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 16, 2018 1:30:56 AM | 63

@ Peter AU 1 with scenario of my comment treatment at SST

In my defense I am an American speaking truth to the folks that are suppose to be defending me and my country and not playing projection force for empire and the private finance Gawds to control our world

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 16, 2018 1:36:08 AM | 64

Germany is getting desperate.

German FM Warns Trump Against 'Unilateral Deals at Expense of Allies' With Putin
https://sptnkne.ws/jbpt

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 16, 2018 1:43:11 AM | 65

psychohistorian 63
No need to defend yourself here, but over at SST, although they have no Russia nor Zionist bias (apart from TTG mild anti Russia) they are strongly US culture as in full blown US capitalism.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 16, 2018 1:52:31 AM | 66

There are a number of strategically important points, throughout history and currently. Crimea, Gibraltar, Malacca Strait ect.
Today, with the forming up of Eurasia, no point is more important than the patch of oil rich ground that surrounds the Persian gulf and Mesopotamia. This will be strategically, the most important piece of real estate for the foreseeable future.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 16, 2018 2:32:04 AM | 67

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 16, 2018 1:43:11 AM | 64

You think Putin is going to cancel NordStream II?

Posted by: somebody | Jul 16, 2018 2:32:58 AM | 68

jeez somebody, don't swamp this thread in winding zanon up.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 16, 2018 2:54:22 AM | 69

les7 2

It is interesting listening to Putin's take on geo-political problems and difference in this regard between Russia and the US.
US sees a problem, and like a hammer hitting a nail destroys that problem. The aftermath is that many more problems will arise from this.
The Russian take on problems is to lower them to a state that is manageable, but not to the point that creates more problems.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 16, 2018 3:03:11 AM | 70

#68
Nothing to get wound up about: Short of military intervention (not going to happen); nothing can stop Nordstream II from going forward.

Posted by: V | Jul 16, 2018 3:15:34 AM | 71

V 70
Germany is the EU country that has been under sustained attack by the US in recent years. It is interesting to watch. Merkel's obeisance to US alongside German industry connecting to Russia.
With Nordstream, Germany will insulate itself for what is to come.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 16, 2018 3:32:22 AM | 72

#71
Indeed.
If it weren't so blatently sick, it would be hilarious.
Stop the cheap gas from Russia and buy the expensive LPG from the U.S.; a country without the infrastructure to even supply Germany, let alone the EU.
A genuine failure to apply intelligence (the I.Q. kind)...
Anyhoo, no word on the summit, which I don't think has started yet.

Posted by: V | Jul 16, 2018 3:49:32 AM | 73

Japan.
Abe pays respects to WWII identities shrines. What does this signify? Old pre WWII animosities to China and Asia? Pre WWII japan was a sovereign country. Now it is an occupied country. Under the surface, who will Abe align with?

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 16, 2018 4:11:14 AM | 74

US-Russia ties have ‘never been worse’ thanks to US ‘foolishness and stupidity’ – Trump
https://www.rt.com/news/433303-russia-us-relations-worse-hunt/

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 16, 2018 4:12:15 AM | 75

somebody

I guess thats up to EU that still cant decide if they want or do not want with Northstream.
Then if LNG put out a better deal, Northsteam might be paused. What do you think?

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 16, 2018 4:17:37 AM | 76

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jul 16, 2018 3:32:22 AM | 71

Best characterization of Angela Merkel is that she is the model student who pretends to be with the rest of the class.

Apart from that she is the most intelligent of the lot.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 16, 2018 4:19:29 AM | 77

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 16, 2018 4:17:37 AM | 75

It is allways good to keep all options, don't you think?

Posted by: somebody | Jul 16, 2018 4:40:45 AM | 78

North Stream is a done deal, and it is not just a Russian-German deal, there are other big international investors.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Jul 16, 2018 4:50:40 AM | 79

#78
Indeed it is a done deal.
And, yes; the international investors. Good point, which I forgot.

Posted by: V | Jul 16, 2018 5:09:14 AM | 80

Investors must be pretty tired that alot of EU states try to block it though.

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 16, 2018 5:15:53 AM | 81

I'm left wondering if people know there is already Nordstream I; has been for years.
Nordstream II is being layed in parallel to Ns I. Ns II is nearly finished.
Bottom line; bluff and political bluster; or as the Bard would say; much ado about nothing...

Posted by: V | Jul 16, 2018 5:25:19 AM | 82

Trump has his hands full on trying to work with Russia. He definitely needs a more progressive domestic agenda but I like his foreign policy initiatives.

Tim Black on the Russia summit

""Yet perhaps it is not Trump who has the Russia problem. Perhaps it is not Trump who has the Putin fixation. In fact, it is the American political class, indeed the political and media classes of much of the West, which has developed – or rather revived – an obsession with Russia as The Enemy. Have they not turned it into an object of evil, determined to undermine and corrode the institutions of the West? Hence Russia is blamed for the bloodshed in Syria, despite the West’s considerably larger role in the unravelling of the entire Middle East. It is condemned for the conflict in Ukraine, despite NATO and the EU’s longstanding provocations. And, above all, it is held responsible, in some distant behind-the-scenes way, for the election of Trump, Brexit and every other Western popular revolt of recent years. That is why Russian meddling in the US presidential election has become such a crusade for the US political establishment. It explains away the very real estrangement of the political class from those they have for too long failed to represent. It explains away their failure to speak for the whole of society, rather than just a professional, middle-class coastal strata. It explains away the domestic reasons for the erosion of the political establishment’s grip on power.""

-----------

In the against the grain category, consider that tensions have eased with Syria, Russia and Korea. Next up, Iran and China. Also of importance
US Powerless Against Hypersonic Missile Attacks From China, Russia

Go along to get along.

Posted by: financial matters | Mar 23, 2018 9:47:46 AM | 98

Posted by: financial matters | Jul 16, 2018 7:06:40 AM | 83

Just watched the news conference at the opening of the Helsinki news conference; Putin showed some stress as Trump spoke; look at Putin's left hand grip on the arm of the chair; doesn't appear relaxed.
A rare show of emotion, imo.
Putin usually a master of composure. Maybe wrong of course, but, it's what I saw.

Posted by: V | Jul 16, 2018 7:22:40 AM | 84

Posted by: V | Jul 16, 2018 5:25:19 AM | 81

Russian, Austrian, Dutch, French and German

The investment is done.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 16, 2018 7:26:44 AM | 85

#84
Indeed, nothing left to discuss, yes?

Posted by: V | Jul 16, 2018 7:31:28 AM | 86

83 Putin needs a lot of effort to control himself talking to Trump

John Helmer:
MELANIA TRUMP AND SIGABA ALLOW PUTIN TO DECODE TRUMP = TRUMP TOO DEFECTIVE AND IMPOTENT TO MAKE OR KEEP AGREEMENTS, STATE DEPARTMENT WORKING GROUPS ARE LAST HOPE

Posted by: somebody | Jul 16, 2018 7:39:05 AM | 87

Financial matters @ 82
Just a reminder trump is responsible for keeping small children in dog kennels! What I wonder would your attempt to rationalise adolph hitler be ? Is trump the best America has to offer ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 16, 2018 8:00:07 AM | 88

So I read the Publius Tacitus rant at SST and was going to leave a comment but...
...
Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 16, 2018 12:58:05 AM | 58

One suspects people have read too much into PubTac's rant.
He was merely pointing out that Trump Derangement Syndrome has transmogrified into Putin Derangement Syndrome and cited random factoids to reinforce that thesis. It was important and necessary for 'someone' to point out the bleeding obvious, and the crass stupidity, and PT kept it short & sweet - and appropriately disrespectful.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 16, 2018 8:35:45 AM | 89

@88. Yes the age of PTDS PutinTrumpDerangementSyndrome is upon us....

A poster in a previous thread (Dorian) mentioned that in order to obtain a clear view of history one must read original source material, his example IIRC was German newspapers of the time reporting on Armistice agreements after WW1. He/She mentioned a blockade or negotiation under duress was being reported but not repeated by 'western' press.

My question to that poster and any who care to answer would be... Eighty years from now will the newspapers of the AZ empire have captured accurately what was going on or will there be a slant to mollify the intended audience?

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 16, 2018 9:28:19 AM | 90

Mark2 @ 87....Sorry I missed your comment..... it may illustrate an example of my ? At 89 as I'm pretty sure the dog cage thing has been debunked or not from the current admin anyways IIRC.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 16, 2018 9:46:35 AM | 91

16:05 US Lawmakers Call on Trump to Reject Putin's Demands on Syria

"We, therefore, call on President Trump to reject any Russian demands with respect to Syria," Ranking Member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee Bob Menendez and Ranking Member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee Eliot Engel said in a statement.

Trump must instead demand that Putin follow through on his obligations with regard to the Iranian presence in Syria and make sure Syrian President Assad Bashar commits to a political process that will end the conflict, the statement added.


https://sputniknews.com/world/201807161066387777-putin-trump-talks-helsinki/#article_item_1066396991

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 16, 2018 9:48:55 AM | 92

Some things seem to have been solved.

Adam Lapszynski ‏ @lapszynski Adam Lapszynski Retweeted Michał Potocki

Temporary governor of the Russian Orlov Oblast, Andrei Kłyczkow issued a decree on the appointment of a group for the integration of the oblast with self-appointed #Donetsk and #Lugansk People's Republic.
Football is over let's get back to the real life.
#Ukraine

Posted by: somebody | Jul 16, 2018 9:49:46 AM | 93

Tanennhouser @ 90
Thanks for your reply, my comment was a deliberately brief example of trumps failings! Obviously! Your psychological rationalisation of the indefensible only serves to prove my previous comments ! That generaly speaking America is delusional and in denial regarding reality . But go on, how about trumps involvement in the Yemen genacide or America supporting Israel sniper attacks on children on the golan heights! I just can't wait to here your reply!

Posted by: Mark2 | Jul 16, 2018 10:42:07 AM | 94

Would hope that in this U$/Russia summit, Putin would hold DJT's feet to the fire over the empire's unbridled aggression around the globe...

Then I woke up!!

Posted by: ben | Jul 16, 2018 11:20:50 AM | 95

Tannenhouser @ 89

Interesting question...
I seriously doubt newspapers will exist then. Not to mention that access to data has become incredibly easy compared to 70 years ago, and is only becoming even easier. Servers like the "way back machine" make it very difficult to manipulate Internet history, and alternative media has possibly as much exposure as MSM, more so on the Internet, making it almost impossible to paint modern history with any particular slant without the interested parties having easy access to the opposite slant.
However, what interests me most is the social programming that is desperately trying to catch up with the pace of technological evolution, for example: Slavery was not abolished because whites suddenly grew a conscience, and women weren't given the right to vote because they wanted equality. These things happened because corporate interest found a way to increase consumer percentage, but in order to bring about these changes people had to be socially programmed to accept them, which took decades, in each case.
Today, I see most of our social movements have been hijacked in extremely sophisticated ways (please just stay dead, Bernays) and in that way history is literally being hijacked too. For example, in the same way it is almost impossible for any genuine historian to publish his research if the facts he has found can be perceived by the modern social overlords as "holocaust denial", it may be that in the future what is fact now becomes taboo through a similar process. So I think history is controlled through current social norms, no matter the time or date. That is, until there is no longer any vested interest in it being otherwise.
Id like to hear your thoughts...

Posted by: dan | Jul 16, 2018 11:23:39 AM | 96

Mark2@93 You got me ALL wrong...One does not have to "believe" all the TDS fake news to be in opposition to some of his actions. Pointing out that some things may not be exactly as they appear emotionally is hardly "psychological rationalisation of the indefensible". What is going on in Yemen or the west bank is indefensible I agree and my comments were not meant or intended to portray otherwise. Thanks.

Dan I'll get back to you later, thanks for the reply.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 16, 2018 11:57:08 AM | 97

42;lysias;bingo.And the guns are with people who with like Trump.

Posted by: dahoit | Jul 16, 2018 11:58:51 AM | 98

Just watched Trump and Putin at press conference. Mostly they were deflecting questions on Russian election interference, Syria, Crimea, pee-tapes etc. Nothing very earth shattering.

Posted by: dh | Jul 16, 2018 12:01:18 PM | 99

If Mueller investigation sends official request to question suspects, Russia will do that - Putin
https://www.rt.com/news/433400-mueller-probe-request-russia/

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 16, 2018 12:01:20 PM | 100

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