Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 31, 2018

Hillary Clinton Ordered Diplomats To Suppress 'Novichok' Discussions

While the last act of the 'Novichok' drama, the seasonally appropriate resurrection of the Skripals, proceeds, some additional details of the history of 'Novichok' nerve agents come to light.

Details on 'Novichok' nerve agents were published in a 2007 book by Vil Mirzayanaov, a Soviet scientist offered asylum in the United States.

After the publication the U.S. and the UK actively suppressed international discussions about the book and the 'Novichok' chemical weapon agents. Documents from the U.S. State Department published by Wikileaks show that then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton directed her diplomats to not talk about Novichok and to play down the matter should it arise in chemical weapon control talks.


bigger

The so called 'Novichok' group of nerve agents were developed in the 1970s and 80s by Pyotr Kirpichev and Vladimir Uglev under a Soviet program codenamed 'Foilant'.

bigger

Later on the development group handed the project off to Professor Leonid Rink for further developments of the substances into binary agents which would make them usable as military weapons. But the Soviet Union broke down and stopped paying its scientists. Rink secretly produced a small dosage of one of the Novichok agents and sold it to a Latvian mafia contact. In 1995 the poison was used to kill a Russian mobster kingpin/banker and his secretary in Moscow. Rink produced several more doses and sold them. Their whereabouts are unknown but such substances are supposedly unstable and they will likely have lost their effect.

Another scientist at those laboratories, the chemical analyst Vil Mirzayanov was tasked with detecting environmental and security leaks from the laboratories. He knew of the 'Foliant' program and the developed 'Novichok' agents. In the early 1990s he blew the whistle about them, was harassed by the state and in 1996 was allowed to go to the United States. There he spilled his beans (pdf) and told the U.S. whatever he knew.

In 1997 the Russian Federation and other states of the former Soviet Union joined the Chemical Weapons Convention and destroyed their chemical weapon stocks and production facilities. One production and test facility for the 'Novichok' agents was in Nukus, Uzbekistan. In 1999 the U.S. helped to dismantle that facility. It surely acquired additional knowledge about everything that was produced there.

In 2008 Mirzayanov published a book about his story and the chemical agents developed under the 'Foilant' program. The book included the chemical formulas of the agents.


1, 2

Today Mirzayanov lives in a million dollar home in Princeton, New Jersey.

The book created new interest in the international community of chemical weapon scientists. People involved with the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) and the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) were highly interested in this. Was there really a new '4th generation' of chemical weapons that could be easily made from freely available industrial precursors? Naturally the U.S. diplomats involved in the arms control efforts and in the OPCW were asked about this.

U.S. State Department documents published by Wikileaks provide that the U.S. and the UK tried to suppress any discussion of the book. (A big thank you to Stephen McIntyre of Climate Audit who found these cables.)

From these U.S. State Department cables we learn of several meetings in March and April 2009, shortly after Mirzayanov's 'Novichok' book came out, where the issue was discussed. U.S. diplomats at The Hague asked the CIA, the National Security Council and the State Department how to react to questions about Mirzayanov's book:

CWC: INQUIRIES IN THE HAGUE ABOUT MIRZAYANOV "STATE SECRETS" BOOK

2. (S) On March 25, in a private conversation, Canadian delegate asked U.S. and UK Delreps whether they had heard of the Mirzayanov book "State Secrets: An Insider's View of the Russian Chemical Weapons Program." Canadian Rep added that Mirzayanov now appeared on YouTube. UK Rep acknowledged she had heard of it, but said this was the first time she had heard of "novichoks" and thought the entire discussion was best left to experts in capital. U.S. Delrep indicated a lack of familiarity with the subject matter and indicated no interest in pursuing the discussion further.

3. (S) On March 4, Delrep met with U.S. Rep to the OPCW Data Validation Group. In addition to a routine report on the activities of the Validation Group the week of March 2, U.S. Rep informed Delrep that representatives of several countries (Finland, Netherlands, UK) had begun discussing the Mirzayanov book on the margins of the meeting. All participants in the discussion seemed to be simply gauging the level of awareness; these same individuals also expressed some doubt as to the credibility/accuracy of the information in the book. U.S. Rep to the Validation Group confirmed that no other members of the group took part in or were listening to this conversation.

4. (S) Del Note: U.S. Del understands from OSD that the UK Ministry of Defense has spoken to its counterparts in the Netherlands and Finland, apprised them of the conversation, and asked each country to provide guidance to its del members not/not to raise this issue in the future. End Note.

(The (S) denote these paragraphs as "Secret".)

On March 2 delegates from Finland, the Netherlands and the UK discussed the book. Afterwards the UK Ministry of Defense asked the other governments to "shut the f*** up" about it. In a March 25 meeting a Canadian delegate came up with questions about the book. The U.S. and the UK delegate played dumb. The U.S. delegate then asks how to handle the issue in future meetings:

5. (S) Action Request: As the implications of this book for the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) are likely to come up at future OPCW meetings (particularly technical meetings like the upcoming Scientific Advisory Board meeting 30 March - 1 April 2009), Del requests guidance as to how this issue is to be handled if raised by others. U.S. members of OPCW technical advisory bodies do not necessarily have contact with the U.S. delegation during their time in The Hague; guidance will need to be provided directly to these individuals.

The requested guidance came in a message from the State Department on April 3:

AUSTRALIA GROUP: GUIDANCE FOR INFORMAL INTERSESSIONAL MEETING IN LONDON, APRIL 6-7, 2009

(The Australia Group is an informal U.S. led group of 'western' countries which harmonizes export controls of materials related to weapons of mass destruction.)

1. (U) This message provides guidance for the U.S. delegation to the Australia Group's informal intersessional meeting in London on April 6-7, 2009.

The guidance lists five "objectives" for the meeting. The fifth one is:

-- Avoid any substantive discussion of the Mirazayanov book "State Secrets: An Insider's View of the Russian Chemical Weapons Program" or so-called 'Fourth Generation Agents.'

Further down it details:

7. (C) If AG participants raise the issue of Vils Mirazayonov's book "State Secrets: An Insider's View of the Russian Chemical Weapons Program," the Del should:

-- Report any instances in which the book is raised.

-- Not/not start or provoke conversations about the book or engage substantively if it comes up in conversation.

-- Express a lack of familiarity with the issue.

-- Quietly discourage substantive discussions by suggesting that the issue is 'best left to experts in capitals.'

CLINTON

The follow-up U.S. delegation report after the meeting of the Australia Group does not mention 'Novichok' or the book. The issue was kept off the table.

The above is not the only involvement of "CLINTON" in the 'Novichok' and Skripal affair. The Hillary Clinton presidential campaign paid the British company Orbis to create the 'dirty dossier' about Trump and his alleged connections to Russia. Christopher Steele, a former(?) MI6 agent, and his former(?) MI6 colleague Pablo Miller wrote the dossier, claiming that its information came from Russian sources. Pablo Miller was the MI6 agent who had recruited Sergej Skripal as a spy for the UK. Miller lives in Salisbury where Sergej Skripal lives and where he and his daughter were allegedly attacked with a 'Novichok' nerve agent. Miller was a friend of Sergej Skripal and regularly met him. It is quite possible that some of the shoddy rumors in the Steele dossier were sourced from Skripal or from his daughter Yulia. The incident in Salisbury could well be related to the dossier or other dubiously alleged campaign issues.

It is intriguing that the U.S. and the UK tried to downplay any discussion of 'Novichoks' and the book. Why did they do so?

Until 2016 the OPCW's Scientific Advisory Board (SAB) as well as scientists at the UK weapon laboratory in Porton Down sowed doubts about the very existence of 'Novichoks'. We fell for this when we asked if 'Novichocks' exist at all. Until late 2016 the OPCW did not list the substances and their precursors. This was no oversight but intent.  Active U.S. suppression efforts against any mentioning of 'Novichoks' in the OPCW already occurred in 2006:

7. (C) Drawing on the points provided in reftel, del rep met with delegates from the UK (Mark Matthews), Switzerland (Ruth flint), Austria (Hans Schramml) and Czech Republic (Jitka Brodska) to discuss the recent ill-considered comments made by Scientific Advisory Board Chairman Matousek to the Western Group. All of the delegates appreciated the clarification that the U.S. did not develop or weaponize NGA, including "Novichoks." They also agreed with the U.S. that it is a bad idea to have a discussion on whether to add NGAs to the CWC Schedules of Chemicals. Finally, they all also stated that they had not heard of any interest by any delegation in pursuing such an effort, and the issue has not/not resurfaced in WEOG.

Jiri Matousek, a Czech scientist leading the SAB, was told to shut up. A U.S. diplomat contacted the Czech government and later reported his success. The headline of his cable is telling: MTAG: CZECHS MUZZLE ADVISORY BOARD CHAIRMAN ON NEXT GENERATION AGENTS.

It is clear now that the professed ignorance of the OPCW about 'Novichocks' was a consequences of U.S. and British pressure to discourage any discussion of the issue.

In 2016 a group of Iranian scientists synthesized five 'Novichok' substances. It devised ways to detect them. The results were published and added to the OPCW database.

The British government insinuates that Russia is the only country that could make 'Novichok' agents and must therefore have attacked the Skripals. This is obviously nonsense. The U.S. and the UK were deeply involved in the 'Novichok' issue. They certainly tried and succeeded to re-create these substances. After the formulas of the nerve agents were published by Mirzayanov the U.S. and the UK suppressed discussion of the issue. The OPCW professed to know nothing about them. Only after Iranian scientists independently re-created the agents and published about them were they added to the OPCW database.

Three questions come to mind which the U.S. and British government should be pressed to answer:

  • Why did the Clinton State Department and the British government suppress international talks about the 'Novichok' agents?
  • Why did they try, successfully it seems, to keep the issue out of the OPCW's Scientific Advisory Board?
  • Why were the substances kept out of the OPCW database until independent Iranian scientists finally re-created them?
---

Previous Moon of Alabama reports on the Skripal case:

---

Sidenote:

There is another Wikileaks document that mentions Vil Mirzanayov. It includes (point 20) the translation of a December 2009 report by the Russian daily paper Nezavisimaya Gazeta, owned by the Berezovsky Media Group, about U.S. attempts to split the tiny Republic of Tatarstan from the Russian Federation. With less than four million inhabitants Tatarstan in the Volga region is a rather irrelevant sub-state of Russia. But even president Obama was involved in the scheme and in October 2009 U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton visited the Tatar capital Kazan. Vil Mirazayanov played a prominent role in the rather stupid game:

As though in confirmation, the so called "government of Tatarstan in exile" was formed in the United States in December 2008. It is headed by US citizen Vil Mirzayanov, a Russian scientist granted political asylum in the United States. Along with Mirzayanov himself, the alleged government includes two Germans and a Turk. This self-proclaimed government already appealed to the UN to recognize independence of Tatarstan in the manner sovereignty of Kosovo, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia had been.

Vil Mirzayanaov signed the bombastic Declaration of Independence of Tatarstan. But as far as I can tell nothing significant came out of the 'Independent Tatarstan' project. In 2014 the U.S. and Turkey used groups of jihadist Tatars they had trained in their unsuccessful attempts to gain control of Crimea. These issues could be related.

Posted by b on March 31, 2018 at 07:19 AM | Permalink

Comments
« previous page

We tend to forget england went straight from rooster to feather duster without much in the way of forced reduction of the strategies and tools to opress sufficiently for world domination. 100 years ago england may not have had the 'full spectrum dominance' that amerika took as their 'right' after the break up of the USSR, when england was boss it was King muck of an extremely shitty puddle.

amerika insisted on some forms of decolonisation after the end of the 20th century euro war, that was more about the elbow and letting amerika take over than a desire to end global oppression, for a long long time amerika fucked up the takeover for a lot of reasons - from biting off in one chunk, much more than it could possibly chew, to being completely ignorant of the societies and relevant cultures of the nation states they claimed, to simply lacking the nous, much less the institutions to be the world's biggest bully. That changed eventually but it took a long time.

Ultimately that meant england's continued intelligence gathering, acts of mayhem such as kicking off wars in africa so brit corporations could purloin resources and bribery assassination, rape & murder.
The amerikans figured it was better to leave it to england than to try controlling the world directly and and in doing so lose much of their potential empire to the USSR.
Even once the USSR ended, amerika used the englanders to fill them in on what was what in the Mid East, who was up who and what corp was paying the rent in Africa, so again the englanders were not constrained or discouraged from keeping their tools of imperialism.

It has been too quiet for the youngest sons of england aristos, the types who normally get tasked with keeping england's creaky machinery of empire ticking over, so whenever they are given an opportunity to grease amerikan butt, the englanders go overboard trying to show they know more and are 'better at the great game'.
Skirpal's failed hit is another in a long line of englander 'intelligence' adopting the most outrageous, transparently deceitful acts of great malice in order to try to demonstrate to DC heavy hitters that they brit intelligence, should have full control over the empire.

Brit intelligence and the agencies they control continue to look to the past as a means to control the future. Life was extremely shitty for a lot of Brits in the post euro war pre EU days, but the cold war kept brit intelligence at the top trough with the greediest pigs even after it emerged that the few capable thinkers in their apparatus had seen the evil of Naziism long before anyone else and had sided with the Soviets to defeat it. Even today many people fail to understand that the bulk of the espionage Philby Burgess, McLean, Blunt and others did was during the war against fascism when they ensured the USSR was kept in the loop despite amerika's insistence that this ally be treated as a enemy.
Apart from that the gang also ensured that the USSR too can make nukes, and that act kept the world safe in the MAD balance of power for at least 60 years.

The little englanders want to leave the EU but because they are doing what may be the right thing for the wrong reasons, brexit is being 'accomplished' in a way that will cost ordinary englanders dearly.
england can look forward to an extended period of economic disarray which, if the tory government controls the exit will be leavened for the aristos and noveau elites by a return to feudalism.
Most of the 'human rights' controls on elite bad behaviour are delivered via eurolaw once the 'transition period' ends after two years of Brexit, england will be a few years away from an election and I guarantee all sorts of excuses and diversions will be manufactured so that the tories just don't get around to piffling details like protecting Jo/Joe Subject (englanders aren't citizens they are subjects of the crown, a position which entitles them to SFA) from rapacious landlords, bosses and retailers.

The Skirpal nonsense has so dominated englander news cycles that brexiters are unaware how b dly they have been stitched up by May at the last brexit negotiation they are gonna get out of the EU without any of things that motivated them to leave, lol. The 'war footing' england is under has persuaded media conglomerates that up until a month ago were running the hairy eyeball over the way May was screwing up brexit to swing behind her and pass of the latest negotions as a win.
Meanwhile Mr Corbyn has been subjected to yet another attack on his 'jew hating' by the usual crew of palestinian murdering zionists.

The zionists are terrified Mr Corbyn will become PM not because the man is a jew-hater, he doesn't have a racist bone in his body and that is why zionists fear him, he doesn't buy into the inherent racism of apartheid israel.
Corbyn is safe but the Labour Party national executive has lost a member who would have helped ensure that all the corrupt pols currently squatting in safe labour seats 'aka the oxbridge parachutist club' would need to get local branch support before they could be reselected.
Christine Shawcroft who won the executive gig by a huge margin, has been replaced by a neoliberal celebrity faux-standup comedian Eddie Izzard who was a runner up in the last election.

For Mr Corbyn to work as PM without constant sniping from the sidelines by his pretend colleaugues he needs to rid parliament of the crooks and charlatans who fiddle their expenses while grabbing back-handers via "labour friends of israel".
This will now be more difficult though still possible since one thing the smarmy sell-out careerist pols have learned is that in contemporary england, if they hope to have any career at all they have to be seen to be going along to get along with Corbyn.
There are dangers tho. Mr Corbyn cannot become too distracted by the petty infighting these worthless hypocrites live by and at some point he is going to have to consider succession. Not because there is any reason to think he hasn't got a decade or two of good work in front of him but because, the last trustworthy leader of Labour, John Smith got knocked & slimy Blair was the next cab off the rank, so he used the aura of Smith to win the general election and then turn Labour into a neolib wankfest.

If the chinless wonders were behind skirpals poisoning, Mr Corbyn would seem very attractive as their next target unless they discover knocking Mr Corbyn has a huge risk and no upside attached to it because the next cab is just as committed to normal humans of all colours, beliefs, shapes and sizes as Mr Corbyn is.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Mar 31, 2018 10:47:49 PM | 101

This is what I found in this article: https://cont.ws/@adeptdao/899795 The original in arabic: and machine translated:

Russian military decision "of high caliber" .. Beirut earthquake to the forefront

Top Article - Article Page

Russian military decision "of high caliber" .. Beirut earthquake to the forefront
...


[long article copy-paste deleted - b.]

Posted by: arbetet | Mar 31, 2018 11:59:49 PM | 102

news report
British Prime Minister Theresa May said on Monday that more than 130 people could have been exposed to the military-grade nerve agent that poisoned Russian ex-spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter in the English city of Salisbury earlier this month. //

So I guess "military-grade" makes it a "chemical weapon" used in "chemical warfare" and not just a poisoning? And therefore elevated to inspection by the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons?

Whatever, it's a welcome alternative to "terrorism." That was becoming boring. It wasn't even military-grade.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 1, 2018 12:12:26 AM | 103

Note that the reason that US diplomats give for not wanting to discuss that book - i.e. they did not want to bring it to the attention of would-be terrorists - is laughable.

It’s not as if we are talking about an interview on Good Morning America, or an op-ed in the NYTimes.

No, this is in connection to closed-door discussions with non-proliferation experts including - fer’cryin’ out loud - non-proliferation experts of supposed ALLIES.

Think about it: if you really did want to stop dangerous info coming to the attention of jihadists would you say to your allies:
A) Err, I dunno’, never read the book.... hey, is that Kim Kardashian over there? There! Over there!
B) Shuddup!?!? That book is dangerous, shut up about it already! Sheesh! Idiot!

You would choose option (B), every time.

You would TELL your allies that you think that any mention of this book is dangerous, and thereby give them a reason to Shut The F**k Up about it.

You certainly wouldn’t do what Clinton did i.e. instruct US officials to act as if that book was No Big Deal.

That would be irresponsible.... IF the reason given was indeed the real reason.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Apr 1, 2018 1:24:25 AM | 104

@91 Arioch.. i think what is significant is they are being addressed separately to both france and britian.. the questions look similar, but they are not all the same.. thanks..

Posted by: james | Apr 1, 2018 2:16:44 AM | 105

Posted by: arbetet | Mar 31, 2018 11:59:49 PM | 103

Revealed: The Pentagon Is Spending Up To $2.2 Billion on Soviet-Style Arms for Syrian Rebels

Arms factories across the Balkans and Eastern Europe – already working at capacity to supply the Syrian war – are unable to meet the demand. In response, the US Department of Defense (DoD) has turned to new suppliers like Kazakhstan, Georgia, and Ukraine for additional munitions while relaxing standards on the material it’s willing to accept, according to an investigation by the Balkan Investigative Reporting Network (BIRN) and the Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project (OCCRP).

BBC: Russia thinks it is all about the Moscow Football Word Cup

Frankly, I agree. As stupid as it sounds.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 1, 2018 2:17:45 AM | 106

@102 debsisdead... i don't know if you saw the angry arabs post a day or two ago on the interview corbyn did for some israel based news outlet.. here is how angry arab characterized it - http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/exclusive-corbyn-interview/

" Jeremy Corbyn's grotesque prostration to Zionists
This is an astounding and humiliating interview. I understand that Corbyn wanted to deny that he is anti-Semitic (and there is nothing wrong for someone to deny accusations of repugnant anti-Semitism if there are grounds). But in order to prove that he is not anti-Semitic he does what classical Western Christian anti-Semites do: they basically conceal their anti-Semitism by going overboard in providing support for Israeli occupation and war crimes. He does the same in this lousy interview. Now he simply wants a two-state solution: his views here are no different from those of Blair, Bush, and even Netanyahu. He even expressed willingness to meet with Netanyahu. He allowed the interviewer to lie and fabricate and to claim that Hamas and Hizbullah have expressed an urge to kill all Jews. In fact, both movements have come out publicly in recent years against anti-Semitism (Hizbullah more than Hamas, I have to say), and yet Corbyn allowed this Zionist to define the matters of debate and to put him on the defensive. I made wonder: is he really not anti-Semitic? Because if you are not, you should never be forced to switch your views like this. I have always told Arabs: never ever trust Western leaders--no matter how left they are: just look at Tsipras in Greece and his embrace of Netanyahu despite years of strong stance in favor of Palestine by his group. Western leaders--on the left and the right--will give up on Palestine for the right price. All of them. What price did you pay, o Jeremy Corbyn?"

what do you think?

Posted by: james | Apr 1, 2018 2:19:57 AM | 107

@ james who asked what price Corbyn paid.

He is still alive

Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 1, 2018 2:32:09 AM | 108

108

I actually read the interview. It is absolutely ok.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 1, 2018 2:36:05 AM | 109

generally i share angry arabs viewpoint.. i haven't read the whole interview - just some of it..

Posted by: james | Apr 1, 2018 2:41:23 AM | 110

Look at the dates please. Putin's speech revealing new Russian high-tech weapons is on March 1st. On March 4 we see the USMIC and its vassals deliver its response. Look what we can do they say: We can propagate the most obvious false flag event possible, ie a poison with marks leading directly to you, the Russians, and watch the brainwashed, sheep-like Western media, politicians and masses flap about competing with themselves over who can be the most hysterically anti-Russian. Its too easy.

Posted by: Anon | Apr 1, 2018 2:50:19 AM | 111

@james 108

I think that the assessment in your post is basically correct.
The methods of the Evil Empire is becoming even more crude, direct and reckless. Time have again and again shown that the Evil Empire wil cause mayhem and destruction if you dont fall in line, allies are not exempt either. History shows that. The Empire has got the west by the balls, the petro dollar, and they can wreck your economy if they so choose. Think of leaders , who did not fall in, who were ruined by "leaks".
Non allies face a harsher fate, much harsher and their countries do too.
What we see now is an direct attempt to wreck J. Corbyn, and they will succeed. The Brits are already broken and more or less slaves.
But the Evil Empires methods is getting cruder are they becoming desperate? The Euro was and is a try that almost succeeded, but the "crisis" in 2008 and the filling up of EU of poor east european countries, took the steam out of that.
Now the face the petro yuan, this and the defamation of Russia is the first strike in that battle.

Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Apr 1, 2018 2:53:04 AM | 112

A post on the twitter feed of Mark Sleboda mentions an incident in East Ghouta that involved the capture of special forces from Britain. (original tweet from Maxim A. Suchkov). Suspects that the events in Salisbury is linked to alleged capture of special forces. Interesting if true. Rumours have it there are lots of SF embedded in East Ghouta.

Posted by: Tom | Apr 1, 2018 2:53:44 AM | 113

Posted by: james | Apr 1, 2018 2:41:23 AM | 111

It is easy to preach abstract ethics in a blog without understanding the context.

Jeremy Corbyn does not get any help by some people who claim they support him. He can't control what Labour party members say and do but he has to make sure there is a process to define what is beyond the pale.

I am sure both - pro and con - is used to make his life difficult but he has to find a way to deal with it. And I think he did well in this interview where the interviewer clearly tried to trip him.

The people who can and will stop this game are Jewish Labour Party members.

I explained how powerful the accusation of antisemitism is. As far as those running these witch hunts are concerned, if I say that my cat isn’t antisemitic, that proves that my cat is antisemitic, otherwise why would I be saying it? It also proves that I am antisemitic, as I am now defending an antisemitic cat. It is irrelevant that I am Jewish and don’t have a cat.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 1, 2018 3:20:11 AM | 114

@113 -- now it's starting to make some sense.

Posted by: imo | Apr 1, 2018 3:30:40 AM | 115

Did Yulia bring a sample of what the UK and France have been using in Syria that some wanted European labs to have so they could compare it to the samples they have from there?

Posted by: Mina | Apr 1, 2018 3:53:17 AM | 116

Olivier Berruyer, of les Crises, has had a comprehensive series on the French part in the Syrian war. The sheer amateurism of the French journalists make it very plain that when they are not given elements by the gov they are unable to describe anything (mixing up groups, places, dates etc... I often think it is on purpose but the sad truth is just incompetence in most cases).
Can the U-turn be explained that way? the spokeperson who said on day 1, we need proofs, had no idea that France and the UK have been so much in bed in every rogue action against Syria that France would have to come to the rescue anyway with whatever happened and failed in the UK? But of course his boss would know (Macron was a top adviser of Hollande so he his aware of all the dirty tricks that have been -lamentably- experimented)
https://www.les-crises.fr/?s=syrie&x=0&y=0

Posted by: Mina | Apr 1, 2018 4:02:04 AM | 117

Must be difficult to prove who is and who is not special forces. For the ppl who arrest them it is clear: equipment. But for the world to see, there will always be a kind journalist telling you that there are suspicions that the equipment has been planted. And then what are you left with is just a bearded Pakistani or else claiming he was there for djihad or 'humanitarian' help.

Posted by: Mina | Apr 1, 2018 4:05:21 AM | 118

Posted by: james | Apr 1, 2018 2:19:57 AM | 107


What I think is that the behaviour of sellout ersatz left labour MPs has persuaded Corbyn to take a leaf outta the neolib book. That is, he has elected to do as they do, pretending to hold one view whie actually working for another outcome. The difference being that the neolib MPs pretend to hold humanist viewpoints and then they fuck the people who voted for them over and then kowtow to the rich, whereas Corbyn is apeing the MOR current labour nonsense, while planning on tossing it aside if he wins power, and if he can. This is the nub of the problem Mr Corbyn faces, he can believe real humanist policies and hold down the party leadership as long as the Labour Party membership keep electing him, and going by the last two years his popularity amongst members and the public at large gets stronger each time he is attacked by the hacks; the problem is that even as Prime Minister he cannot get legislation through parliament without the support of his fellow Labour MP's.
He is trying to mollify the greedy pricks while Momentum uses the the constituency process to weed out the traitors. Right now rocking the boat by demanding the ouster of the hacks by calling them greedy corrupt zionists is believed to be counter productive when the hacks can be flushed away by branch members who want to rid themselves of the clone educated parachutists and replace them with trusted candidates from their branches.
It took a struggle but Mr Corbyn supporters finally got the numbers at National Executive (where disputed candidate selections will ultimately be decided until reform succeeds and devolves power back to the constituency branch as Corbyn advocates).

Some may reasonably call out Mr Corbyn for being no better than the neolibs but realistically if the zionists believed Mr Corbyn holds those pro-israel views, the brit zionist lobby would have ceased its trouble-making.
Everyone who is aware of Corbyn's decades in the wilderness, his uncompromising attitude when push comes to shove knows what he believes, therefore making any allegations of deceit essentially superfluous.
The executive coalition which is currently holding together with baling wire and band-aids doesn't have a simple "we're with Mr Corbyn rah, rah" majority; some of the wonderful human beings who have clawed their way up the ladder are careerist hacks who are backing the left faction for their own selfish ends. It is considered vital that they do not become startled and decide to return to the safety of the MOR hacks, so Mr Corbyn avoids controversy until the pre-selections are sorted.
This means insisting a proper process for the Skirpal investigation without insisting Russia is innocent, it means demanding justice for the indigenous people of the Jordan Valley without continuing to hammer home the outrageousness of the IDF's murdering, raping and theft.

None of us like so-called pragmatic pols because we have seen the horrible disasters they create and then call wonderful, yet the planet has been jammed arse tight into a cleft stick. If Corbyn does and says as he would prefer, the odds of his run for PM blow out to bugger all chance so everything will stay as it is.
I called out oblam blam from the moment he got on his face up at the 2004 dem convention, loathed the bliar long before John Smith karked it, but Corbyn doesn't creep me out the way they did, back when they first surfaced they were selling a message which claimed to be 'radical' more so than Mr Corbyn's recent slides through the neolib constructed minefield yet I am pretty optimistic about him.
It is what pols do which matters not what they say and it is conceivable that Mr Corbyn will turn out to be the worst sell out yet, but I don't feel that.
What I feel is a sort of "So What!" - that if Corbyn is an arse, has always been an arse what has been lost? The scum who control political processes are as bad as it gets, so he couldn't make things worse, on the other hand there is a really good likelihood he is a true humanity loving individual who won't just make things beter for perfidious albion, the example set of caring politics effecting real change, will spread right around this old rock.

Much to win and fuck all to lose.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Apr 1, 2018 4:16:37 AM | 119

While over on real street the Pentagon does it thing. Misdirection at its finest. Bio weapons lab in Georgia and Pentagon funding for Porton Down.

https://www.naturalblaze.com/2018/01/bio-weapons-pentagon.html

http://21stcenturywire.com/2018/03/28/revealed-pentagons-70-million-chemical-biological-program-at-porton-down-in-uk/

Posted by: Tom | Apr 1, 2018 4:26:22 AM | 120

Steve @15 and Toivos @37 I worked with Bruce at USAMRIID although I was on another aerosol non-human primate exposure project I did share a lab with him. One thing which is wrong with the assumptions it was done to increase funding is a that the anthrax program was already the most funded project at USAMRIID and Bruce worked for Art Friedlander which was very well funded. Bruce was a Permanent GS-15 so in no danger of losing his job or funding. Anthrax was and still is the number one threat as it is "easy" to use and has a long shelf life. All other biological agents with the exception of Brucellosis (which doesn't kill) cannot survive contained in a warhead more than a few hours. Brucella survives well dessicated and is another but different problem. Bruce's main job was spore production, maintenance of the culture library, preparation for samples for DNA analysis, etc. He was the go to guy for anything related to culturing anthrax. Bruce wa arguably "strange" but a very good scientist. IMHO he didn't do it at all but was framed by the FBI who was desperate for a culprit. My suspicions go to the CIA and they had an active anthrax production site set up under the Clinton administration out in Utah and another set of illegal projects up at the Battelle Institute West Jefferson. Look up Projects Clear Vision and West Jefferson. It was well characterized and available on line.

The main evidence they had against Bruce was they found the exact same strain used in the anthrax letters. What they leave out is he was ordered to expand from spores contained in the letters after the attacks so yeah Duh! he had the exact same organisms in his lab which they gave him and later killed him for it. That is another interesting problem. He committed suicide by taking a large dose of Acetaminophen (Tylenol). The problem is he died in something like 6 hours. Death from Acetaminophen overdose is from liver failure and takes days if not weeks. It is a similar botched job as with the Skripals although it was never looked at carefully. I will also add that the strain used in the anthrax letters was available world wide and all of it comes from USAMRIID. There is a requirement to test cattle herds for anthrax and the cheapest test is to mix a drop of serum from the cow with a drop of heat killed anthrax spores. It is called the Ames test and it uses the Ames strain of Bacillus anthracis. This is the same strain used in the attack and USAMRIID back before 9/11 supplied state labs with the spores for this testing and all were produced by Bruce or his technicians. Our labs were not in the main building of USAMRIID which was building 1425 but we were in the old CIA "dirty tricks" lab building 1412. RIID has all new buildings (courtesy of the billions of funding after 9/11) and the campus now includes buildings for DHS, DHHS, USDA etc. My point about the strain is it was readily available (courtesy of USAMRIID) and could have been made anywhere. The process for making them less sticky is another issue and Bruce (as well as others such as myself) know how to make dried spores. We don't need to do that though as aerosol animal exposures use a liquid slurry (spore suspension) as it is far easier to monitor the inhaled doses given to the animals. But, if I were going to use anthrax I wouldn't use the Ames strain which is notoriously weak require 3 logs higher dose to get lethality. There are far better strains than Ames for attacking people. So, whoever did it either really didn't want to kill anyone or didn't know a lot.

I will also add that back in (if my memory serves me well) a paper out of Canada (since removed from all archives) discussing feasibility of mailing spores in envelopes. If you examine who the targets were they were Senators who were against increasing funding to the CIA. The cui bono test is a poor one as everyone benefited from the anthrax letters.

Posted by: Old Microbiologist | Apr 1, 2018 4:30:35 AM | 121

someone please burn the witch.

what will the world do when that women dies. :) It will have to find someone else to blame i guess.

seriously, is she responsible for everything that happens or just 95% of everything. Curious here.

Posted by: Sabine | Apr 1, 2018 5:05:13 AM | 122

Sabine, Curious here, definitely. Name one positive accomplishment of Mrs. Clinton. Just her votes and/or support for for Iraq and Libya's destruction are enough to negate anything you might be able to come up with. I don't expect you to come back defending here with specific points.

Posted by: Quentin | Apr 1, 2018 5:47:47 AM | 123

It's April 1 today. My big fear is that come 12 pm London time (about 10 pm Sydney time; it's 8:45 pm now as I type), Salisbury District Hospital will come out with a new announcement that Julia Skripal has had a sudden relapse after a couple of days of sitting up and talking to doctors, and that her condition is now back to critical and close to death's door.

Some April Fool's joke that turned out to be.

Posted by: Jen | Apr 1, 2018 6:44:19 AM | 124

re. Microbiologist 121, afaik, this (?) (a description not the original)

" ... In Canada, after several anthrax hoax letters there, the Defence Research Establishment, Suffield conducted experiments during February–April 2001 to estimate the hazards arising from opening a letter containing spores of B. anthracis. The Canadian researchers used as a simulant spores of non-pathogenic B. globigii, donated by the United States Department of Defense, Dugway Proving Ground, Utah. It was found, contrary to the expectation of those conducting the tests, that large numbers of spores were released into the air upon opening an envelope containing even as little as a tenth of a gram of spores, and that large doses would be inhaled by an unprotected individual in the room in which the letter was opened. The ensuing report, released in September 2001, also warned that envelopes not thoroughly sealed could pose a threat to individuals in the mail-handling system. Following the United States anthrax-letter attacks, however, it was realized that anthrax spores might escape even from fully sealed envelopes, depending on the type and grade of paper."

from a WHO report

http://www.sussex.ac.uk/Units/spru/hsp/documents/Guillemin%20article.pdf


Posted by: Noirette | Apr 1, 2018 8:58:54 AM | 127

So far as I can tell from having searched at Wikileaks to find the alleged Clinton email that refers to Vils Mirazyanov and orders staffers not to refer to his book, that allegation made here is false: no such statement by her exists at Wikileaks, nor is the name of Vils Mirazyanov in their files.

Posted by: Eric Zuesse | Apr 1, 2018 10:34:16 AM | 128

@128 ans @129 Eric Zuesse, BTW like your work

Here you go from Clinton-

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09STATE32931_a.html

". (C) If AG participants raise the issue of Vils
Mirazayonov's book "State Secrets: An Insider's View of the
Russian Chemical Weapons Program," the Del should:

-- Report any instances in which the book is raised.

-- Not/not start or provoke conversations about the book or
engage substantively if it comes up in conversation.

-- Express a lack of familiarity with the issue.

-- Quietly discourage substantive discussions by suggesting
that the issue is 'best left to experts in capitals.'
CLINTON"

and to Clinton, NSC, CIA and SecDef -

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09THEHAGUE205_a.html

"3. (S) On March 4, Delrep met with U.S. Rep to the OPCW Data Validation Group. In addition to a routine report on the activities of the Validation Group the week of March 2, U.S. Rep informed Delrep that representatives of several countries (Finland, Netherlands, UK) had begun discussing the Mirzayanov book on the margins of the meeting. All participants in the discussion seemed to be simply gauging the level of awareness; these same individuals also expressed some doubt as to the credibility/accuracy of the information in the book. U.S. Rep to the Validation Group confirmed that no other members of the group took part in or were listening to this conversation.
4. (S) Del Note: U.S. Del understands from OSD that the UK Ministry of Defense has spoken to its counterparts in the Netherlands and Finland, apprised them of the conversation, and asked each country to provide guidance to its del members not/not to raise this issue in the future. End Note. "

Posted by: TJ | Apr 1, 2018 11:17:04 AM | 129

Ahhh Herr Zuesse. Still the dumbest dude on earth?

Obviously:

1. The guys name is "Vil Mirzayanov" (sometimes written as "Vil Mirazayanov"). The name is not 'Vils Mirazyanov'.

Hint: It says so on the title of his book and in the Clinton cable pictured above.

2. The excerpts above are from the diplomatic cables stuff at Wikileaks not from the Clinton emails stuff.

Hint: It says so in my piece.

3. The relevant cables quoted above are at WIkileaks.

Hint: THEY ARE LINKED IN MY PIECE. Yes, a totally novel concept for wannabe writers like you. I though DO LINK MY SOURCES.

Now f*** off!

Posted by: b | Apr 1, 2018 11:20:07 AM | 130

Eric Zuesse @ 129

The name in the cable is "Mirazayanov", and it can be found via a search if you use that exact spelling.

Posted by: integer | Apr 1, 2018 11:32:02 AM | 131

This is what I could find

Mention of Novichok - Russia has not confirmed.

Mention of novichok - Britain doubts the completeness of Russian declarations

and the document b. quotes from

b. spelt the name in a different way.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 1, 2018 11:32:45 AM | 132

The guan had a post about the poisoning,and the responding was very anti british.hahaha.Check it out,before it disappears.

Posted by: dahoit | Apr 1, 2018 12:20:47 PM | 133

add to 132
actually, I could not find much on the Tatarstan government in exile and I doubt it exists or that Mirzayanov supports it. The only English document seems to have been publish by some Turkish source, mirzayanov.com does not exist and whois is protected by privacy.

Publishing the novichok formula (self-published according to German Wikipedia) to level the field, in my logic, proves that Mirzayanov is not in the CIA's pocket. He is probably the only well-known Tatarstan exile Turkey could find in public records.

Also according to German Wikipedia he refused a post in Eaglewood. According to English Wikipedia he has a post at Rutgers University.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 1, 2018 12:29:09 PM | 134

@somebody

6:22 PM - 15 Oct 2009


Vil Mirzayanov @vilmirzayanov

I'm happy with Ms. Clinton's visit to Kazan Tatarstan. I think Milli Mejlis' s Declaration contributed to this.
6:22 PM - 15 Oct 2009

U.S. propaganda outlet RFL/RE - December 2011:
Tatar Activist Calls For Boycott Of International Athletic Event In Kazan

KAZAN, Russia -- A prominent Tatar nationalist has called for a boycott of the international university sports competition Universiade due to be held in Tatarstan in 2013 because of the recent jailing of Tatar activists, RFE/RL's Tatar-Bashkir Service reports.

Vil Mirzayanov told RFE/RL from his home in the United States that the Universiade -- organized for university athletes by the International University Sports Federation (FISU) -- should be boycotted on an international level as a response to "the illegal detention of Tatar youth activists in Kazan on December 10."
...
Mirzayanov left Russia in 1996 and now lives in the United States. He has recently been actively involved in the Tatar independence movement.


<

Posted by: b | Apr 1, 2018 1:11:06 PM | 135

135

:-)) thanks.

I noticed his interviews have been heavily cut. He is definitively not towing any line.

Vil Mirzayanov ‏ @vilmirzayanov


I didn't believe that US press media is under the control of Washington. Before it ignored my expertise on Novichok poisoning in England. Looks like Homeland security department recommended not to make publicity for Mirzayanov.

Leonid Rink, former scientist from Shikhany sold a lot of samples of Novichok. Even though it was used for killing of Kvilidi. Chief of Russian Chemical Troops blamed me as a assistant of terrorists. Why he doesn't care about a real treason and crime committed by L.Rink*


Posted by: somebody | Apr 1, 2018 1:19:24 PM | 136

add this to 136

:))

Vil Mirzayanov
‏ @vilmirzayanov
26. Nov. 2009

Looks like Mrs. Clinnton encouraged Kazan crook ruler http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1358172605&v=app_2347471856

Posted by: somebody | Apr 1, 2018 1:23:37 PM | 137

add this to 137 from his facebook page

I'm former chemical weapons scientist. Also I am former Russian chemical weapons' Program whistleblower. KGB prosecuted me in Russia in 1991-94 for this reason. FBI and CIA are also unhappy with me because of my political views. In 2002 published my book "Vizov" in Russian and in 2009 - State Secrets: An Insider's Chronicle of the Russian Chemical Weapons Program where I at first time gave real chemical forumulas of the new chemical agents of the series "Novichok" which are not listed in CWC list of CA.

Is there a full interview somewhere about what he has got to say?

Posted by: somebody | Apr 1, 2018 1:26:34 PM | 138

@somebody

archive.org is your friend.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170114162839/http://mirzayanov.com/">http://mirzayanov.com/">https://web.archive.org/web/20170114162839/http://mirzayanov.com/

https://web.archive.org/web/2017020101450/http://www.mirzayanov.com:80/10611086109011031090108310801090107210901072108810991089107410861073108610761099.html">http://www.mirzayanov.com:80/10611086109011031090108310801090107210901072108810991089107410861073108610761099.html">https://web.archive.org/web/2017020101450/http://www.mirzayanov.com:80/10611086109011031090108310801090107210901072108810991089107410861073108610761099.html

"Since I, as a Tatar, are deeply concerned about the independence of my enslaved nation, I have always tried to keep abreast of developments related to them."

Posted by: TJ | Apr 1, 2018 1:52:37 PM | 139

Posted by: TJ | Apr 1, 2018 1:52:37 PM | 139

Thanks. Remains the fact that he seems to be saying something different in the cut interviews (it was definitively Russia, Russia lies all the time - presumably on the - cut - question if Novichok existed) than on Twitter - Leonid Rink sold the stuff to anybody.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 1, 2018 2:06:30 PM | 140

nationofsheep @72

Point 2 of your list (“aerosol in the face”) strikes me as most likely.

AFAIK we have no other reports of sickening from that restaurant. And “all fake” is possible but has many risks. “All fake” also implies many participants. Many of these could’ve pretended to be sickened for media effect. But only DS Bailey was sickened.

Yulia coming out of coma is quite interesting given that one theory is that she brought something with her that had the nerve agent/poison. Will she recover enough to tell her story to the press and to meet with Russian diplomats? Or will she succumb shortly after being led to describe how the poison MIGHT’VE been planted on her. Several people at MoA have expressed concern about the potential for foul play.

Previously I have written about my suspicions abou DS Bailey here, and here.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 1, 2018 2:22:04 PM | 141

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Mar 31, 2018 5:58:52 PM | 76 " I suspect the main event was Ghouta and has been foiled, perhaps by discovering the chemicals or the sacking of Tillerson or both."

Don't suppose the recently announced involvement of France (on ground in Syria plus exchange of CW data with UK) could be 'Syria false flag 2'? Whereby France will attempt to perpetrate, or be 'witness' to – or worse have it's soldiers suffer – a false flag in N. Syria? By lucky accident (assisting our colleagues in the UK...), they'll have hard evidence that the CW/poison is exactly the same as the CW/poison used in Salisbury? Ipso facto: "the Russian's done it Guv".

A KISS operation that will be believed by the public of both nations; and thus give a pretext for USA/NATO to rush to everyone's aid and stop those nasty CW-hurling types – Syria, Russia (& perhaps Iran for good measure)?

Re-run of WMD anyone?

Posted by: Carrie | Apr 1, 2018 2:25:45 PM | 142

For some reason my links didn’t work.

The links pointed to comments 48 and 77 at Weekly Review And Open Thread 2018-13.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 1, 2018 2:26:27 PM | 143

US media are not uniform. There does seem to be a fight between different factions.

Russian Nerve Agent Scientist Admits Selling Deadly Toxin to Chechen Mobsters

A chemist who helped develop the nerve agent that Britain says was used to poison former Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter was investigated in the late 1990s for selling capsules of the toxin to Chechen mobsters.

Leonid Rink, who worked in a Soviet-era chemical weapons facility near the Russian town of Saratov, admitted to investigators after the killing of a Russian banker in 1995 that he sold capsules of the deadly Novichok toxin to Chechen criminals based in Moscow.
...
Another Russian scientist who worked on the Novichok program, Vil Mirzayanov, who fled to the U.S. two decades ago, has raised doubts about the possibility of Russian authorities losing control of any stockpiles of Novichok. He has told reporters that Soviet and later Russian authorities maintained tight control of the toxin, questioning whether any Novichok could have fallen into the hands of anyone the Kremlin did not want to have it.
But the 1995 slaying of Russian banking magnate Ivan Kivelidi and his secretary, who both died from organ failure after being contaminated, suggests otherwise.

...
Vil Mirzayanov suggested in an interview with VOA’s Russian Service that anyone could cook up Novichok because he posted the formula online.

Mirzayanov seems to get quoted for all kinds of stuff :-))

Posted by: somebody | Apr 1, 2018 3:19:57 PM | 144

OK found it. Here is a complete interview of Mirzayanov by Kommersant - in Russian - where he makes sense i.e. does not seem cut or tripped - and he names a few countries - eg. Germany, Britain and the US - with advanced laboratories who could very easily have synthesised Novichok or bought it from the Soviet scientists.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 1, 2018 4:12:15 PM | 145

reply to “Posted by: TJ | Apr 1, 2018 11:17:04 AM | 129”: Thanks, TJ!
reply to "Posted by: b | Apr 1, 2018 11:20:07 AM | 130”: Mr. Horstmann, your article did not link to https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09STATE32931_a.html as you claim it did, and your "Now f*** off!” is something that would be appropriate from — as you referred here to me — "Still the dumbest dude on earth?” But your first insult to me was long ago when you cursed me for my low regard for Karl Marx. And yet, when, at the age of 25, you were inducted into the U.S. Army in 1968 at Ft. Gordon, you denied that you were a communist sympathizer; so, I infer that you became converted to communism only subsequently. I would be interested to know how it happened, because, though you are arrogant, presumptuous, and extraordinarly discourteous, I have always been extremely respectful of you, and I have praised many of your articles to other relevant webmasters in order to increase the particular given article’s public exposure, since I consider you, as I have said, one of the very finest investigative journalists. I have never before come across a person whose intellect I respect who respects the writings of Marx. I looked forward to learning for the first time an intelligent reason for respecting Marx. You were nasty to me from the very start, so I have not been able to exchange views with you. I tried to explain to you why I don’t care for either Marx’s economics or his racist views of Jews, Slavs, and Poles; and I would have gone further, but all I got from you was obscenities, and so I feel sorry for you, even though I do respect your considerable skills as an investigator. I readily admit that I am unskilled at certain aspects of engaging in reader-comments; I don’t even know how your readers manage to open a reply to a prior reader-comment by, like the kindly and informative “TJ” did, "@128 ans @129”, and so I didn’t open here in a similar way. I admit that I am not a know-it-all. You should, too, instead of pretending to be that (which no one is).

Posted by: Eric Zuesse | Apr 1, 2018 10:17:13 PM | 146

Eric Zuesse

I recently became fascinated with YouTube videos of comedians dealing with hecklers. Invariably, these bozos have a high opinion of themselves and proceed to make a fool of themselves to the enjoyment of everyone present.

Your lame comment reminded me of these videos. It’s clear that you should’ve taken b’s advice to “fuck off”. But, as the saying goes “fools rush in . . .”

I think b would be completely justified in deleting your comment and not spending another minute bothering with your evident neediness. But if he does choose to engage, my popcorn is ready.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 1, 2018 10:42:47 PM | 147

Eric
‘Marx is eminently worth discovering’
quote
The first thing I have to say to young people is that they have to read him. Do not read about him, but read Marx. Few people – in comparison with the many who talks about him – actually read Marx. That is also true of Adam Smith. Generally, one only reads about these classics. People learn about them through others people’s summary. They want to save time but, actually, that is a waste of time! One must read interesting people and Marx is the most interesting scholar of the 19th and 20th centuries. There is no question about that. No one is equal to him in terms of the number of things he wrote about, nor for the quality of his analysis. So, my message to the new generation is that Marx is eminently worth discovering but you must read, read, read him. Read Karl Marx!"
Immanuel Wallerstein
https://dailytimes.com.pk/222218/marx-is-eminently-worth-discovering/

Posted by: mauisurfer | Apr 1, 2018 11:37:36 PM | 148

@114 somebody. i think i understand what you are saying.. thanks

@ 119 debsisdead.. thanks.. i see what you are saying and i think you might be correct on corbyn.. he does seem pragmatic which is important to maintain a position in the game of politics and there are many minefields to navigate.. i think angry arab is ignoring a lot to arrive at the position they do.. thanks for taking the time to articulate all that debs.. i really appreciate it..

@130 b... why so much hostility towards eric zuesse? so what if someone has it wrong? everyone is wrong or off track at some point..your hostility towards zuesse seems really unnecessary.. just skip his comment, or say it straight with the facts if you feel you have to reply.. the hostility is coming from what?

Posted by: james | Apr 2, 2018 12:32:01 AM | 149

as for marx... i really don't know much about him or his ideology, but i do know about people getting attached to their personal views which are often quite subjective..

Posted by: james | Apr 2, 2018 12:33:58 AM | 150

james

Basically, if you think the notion of economic class has any explanatory power, you are a Marxist. TPTB insist that class is meaningless and only mentioned by radical leftists and jealous deplorables to destabilize society.

Now the West has the greatest economic inequality since the gilded age but we can’t talk about class (along with a bunch of other taboo subjects).

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 2, 2018 12:58:49 AM | 151

james

While you profess ignorance, Zuesse professes indocrination and issues a challenge to b as a means of luring him into a fruitless discussion.

b’s hostility is entirely justified. Zuesse’s comment is winey BS. What a schmuck.

There are plenty of good resources for learning about Marx.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 2, 2018 1:19:20 AM | 152

@152 jr.. i only see @128 eric zeusse comments.. seems like b dove off the deep end based on only that?

Posted by: james | Apr 2, 2018 1:31:12 AM | 153

@151 jr.. thanks.. i guess i'm a marxist then.. i can see why tptb would say that too, lol...

Posted by: james | Apr 2, 2018 1:34:15 AM | 154

@Jackrabbit

The late, great, Bill Hicks dealing with hecklers-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDrgwZsGC9A

Posted by: TJ | Apr 2, 2018 3:44:38 AM | 155

Noirette @127 Yes, this was a follow on research after the actual anthrax letters. The earlier, now disappeared article, was musing about the idea and I remember distinctly they stated it wouldn't be very effective. One has to put all of this into the context of the time. We were still dealing with the problem that Iraq had developed a program for anthrax which was destroyed during the first Gulf War. The source of the anthrax used was shipped by USAMRIID as Iraq back in the day was our ally against Iran. Saddam Hussein was our guy who we put into place. Anyway, there was a brief period after the Gulf War where funding was adequate to run programs in the Army. There had also been a Congressional Blue Ribbon Committee to determine why a program in operation since 1943 to develop vaccines and countermeasures against known zoonotic biological warfare agents had only produced 2 vaccines in all that period. Those were against Anthrax and Smallpox and had been developed in the 50's. This committee determined that a minimum of $150 million was needed for every biological agent and that the government was only allocation roughly $1 million a year which after you take away administrative overhead and the enormous expenses of running ABSL-4 laboratories leaves you with nothing to do the work effectively. Despite that we were able to make some progress but the main diseases still even after Billions of dollars have been poured into the research, still have no vaccines. We have developed new and improved anthrax vaccines but they are still based on the protein Protective Antigen (PA) and the Soviets way back developed a weaponized anthrax without PA. There was an interesting thing that happened though. My memory is weak but it seems to me to have happened around 1999 when someone placed a petri dish at the front door of the Jewish Synagogue on Wisconsin avenue containing Bacillus (Geobacillus) stearothermophilus and was labelled by hand Anthrex (obviously misspelled). Congress immediately increased the anthrax programs budget by 150%. So, I can understand motive for funding as one idea as it obviously works.

However, being one of those interviewed by the FBI constantly (even though I hadn't worked at USAMRIID since 1998) I was fully aware of how incompetent the investigators were. They were using PhD chemists as agents and there is an enormous mindset difference between chemists and microbiologists. For example, it is very hard to make chemists understand that these agents grow and multiply so having a fixed number of concentration is impossible. They just can't wrap their brains around that simple concept. The entire investigation was run by IMHO idiots and Mueller is obviously the chief idiot. He doesn't seem to have changed at all.

Posted by: Old Microbiologist | Apr 2, 2018 4:19:38 AM | 156

james

On my screen I see a Zuesse comment at 146. You don’t see that?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 2, 2018 6:25:45 AM | 157

@james - 153
@152 jr.. i only see @128 eric zeusse comments.. seems like b dove off the deep end based on only that?

There is a longer history behind that hostility. Zuesse has been cyberstalking me for a while. He first lauded me, shopped my pieces around at other websites without asking me, then wanted me to publish his (nutty) pieces. I rejected that and he since has come up with the various nonsense about me. I believe he has a mental problem and should see a doctor. I do not want be associated with him in any form.

---
Now for the record my factual corrections of Zuesse's comment @146:

Mr. Horstmann, your article did not link to https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09STATE32931_a.html as you claim it did

The article included a link to that cable from the very first moment the piece was published.
The exact link used in my piece is https://search.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09STATE32931_a.html

(What was added about three hours after the first publishing was the 2006 cable about Jiri Matousek. This was found by Billy Bostickson as he mentioned in comment 10 of this thread. That's where I picked up the 2006 cable and then added it to my piece. I noted as much in comment 20.)

Zuesse then claims:
But your first insult to me was long ago when you cursed me for my low regard for Karl Marx

I do not recollect any cursing of that kind. In fact, my knowledge of Marx and his work is very minor. I have not read Marx and therefore avoid discussions of him.

And yet, when, at the age of 25, you were inducted into the U.S. Army in 1968 at Ft. Gordon, you denied that you were a communist sympathizer;

I was not born in 1943, never was in the U.S. army. The first time I visited the U.S. was in the mid 1980s. I was about 25 at that time :-/

My political position since my youth has been that of a market socialist, or lefty social democrat, and never changed since.

All the rest in Zuesse's comment is simply bullshit.

He is a nutter in my view and should be avoided.

Posted by: b | Apr 2, 2018 6:47:43 AM | 158

Anyway, the door knob is out now (though still has the highest concentration of "Novichok") but breakfast cerial is in.

It is getting absurd.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 2, 2018 7:56:51 AM | 159

Old Microbiologist, 156, yes, I read the original paper but hardly remembered it at all until you mentioned it,
and couldn’t turn it up. ( therefore > link to the WHO report.)

I was left with the impression, at the time, from other research as well, that the hype about anthrax
was over the top (recall the duct tape etc.! - ok that Gvmt. scare-tactics) and that the ‘vaccine’ was more of a big deal.

Posted by: Noirette | Apr 2, 2018 9:44:58 AM | 160

karlof1 @33, i understood his claims in the video "novichok fomulas are not terrorist weapons" to mean state structures were required in their production, not their application.

thanks for that tweet, coincides w/BX link @42. i can't find other references to the captured american officer or captured israelis on the web (in english). interesting. the salisbury/east ghouta timing is auspicious. swiftly isolating russia diplomatically after the poison attack served what haley failed attempts at the UN tried to accomplish. jan23 the US resolution sought to "replace" the opcw, this was the day after an alleged chem attack in east ghouta. "Russian Federation’s delegate said the Mechanism had caused the investigation of the use of chemical weapons in Syria to collapse.  It had become a political tool, he said, noting that unfounded allegations had been made against his country by the United States, which had accused it of hampering investigations.  Noting that the veracity of the chemical weapon attack in Ghouta had not been confirmed, he said that its occurrence had for some reason converged with the meeting in Paris on chemical weapons and the upcoming dialogue in Sochi, Russian Federation.". and then feb 5 haley makes her damning anti russian chem weapons speech. seems like a drip drip drip response to syria and then bang/poison russian diplomatic isolation. doing what months of UN bellyaching couldn't do. the US had every reason to use the poison. and a reason clinton might want it hushed up and the novichok agents not under the CWC, is because the US had some in their toolbox.

Posted by: annie | Apr 2, 2018 12:37:30 PM | 161

@158 b... thanks b.. it makes a lot of sense to me now and i agree with you...

@157 jr.. sorry - i did see that, but it was after the fact either way..b's comment confirms how wrong eric is..

Posted by: james | Apr 2, 2018 12:43:28 PM | 162

james @ 38

It appears to me that the US & UK (along with their loyal allies, like Israel and Canada and their
reluctant allies like France and Germany) are gradually separating themselves from the rest of
the world, as Orwell predicted.

I don't see Trump as faking his statement about leaving Syria. Yet. More information is needed.

America's only salvation is a military coup followed by the replacement of Congress by a
single chamber Parliament with each state having a proportional number of members chosen by the
percentage of votes each party list gets.

This is the only way a third party will be able to get traction in America.

Posted by: FSFF | Apr 2, 2018 3:54:10 PM | 163

The OPCW is dead. Rest in Peace, or rather -- Rest in War.

OPCW members can apparently arbitrarily deny other members access to OPCW 'evidence': Moscow won’t accept probe into Skripal case if Russian specialists won’t take part – envoy to OPCW.

Question now is: may the death of OPCW have been the deeper motive behind all this?

Posted by: bjd | Apr 2, 2018 4:36:48 PM | 164

bjd @ 164


"may the death of OPCW have been the deeper motive behind all this?"


You mean deeper than embarrassing Putin before his reelection and turning
the World Cup in Russia into a financial and international sporting event failure?

Posted by: FSFF | Apr 2, 2018 6:26:44 PM | 165

@FSFF (165)

Those motives seem much too facetious at the present time. They may have been originally, but the Russian response has been so effective (basically: play everything strictly by the book) that for better or for worse they now seem to have turned it into a show of 'who is pulling the strings in the international fora like the UN and the OPCW'. Recall the UN has said NOTHING(!) about the US' illegal expulsion of 12 Russian diplomats.

The added benefits are that next month, the US, UK, and France will all be aligned when it comes to Iran; the UN, the OPCW, EU will all have been co-opted by then.

Posted by: bjd | Apr 2, 2018 6:49:38 PM | 166

I am replying to #158 from Bernhard G. Horstmann, who was born in 1943, and who owns this website: Are you telling me that this doesn't describe and show you?: http://www.tombutt.com/forum/2012/121215e.html

Posted by: Eric Zuesse | Apr 2, 2018 7:30:06 PM | 167

@167 eric... that is what bernhard was telling you..

"And yet, when, at the age of 25, you were inducted into the U.S. Army in 1968 at Ft. Gordon, you denied that you were a communist sympathizer;

I was not born in 1943, never was in the U.S. army. The first time I visited the U.S. was in the mid 1980s. I was about 25 at that time :-/"

eric - wrong bernhard horstmann obviously.. when will you cease and desist in this?

Posted by: james | Apr 2, 2018 11:09:09 PM | 168

Herr Zuesse obvious got his nonsense about one Bernhard Horstmann from the equally stupid sleuthhound puppy we all laughed about in late January.

Plagiarizing nonsense 'research' from some idiot who barely left highschool and has produced zero of value in his life? How do we call that? "Zuesselism?"

Now, to tell the truth (NOT), I am the very active parish priest Bernhard Horstmann who works in north-west Germany (NOT). Last year I celebrated my 25th anniversary as pastor (NOT).

Thank you Herr Zuesse for proving by your own words and actions that my claims about you are correct.

Posted by: b | Apr 3, 2018 6:07:54 AM | 169

OPCW meeting to consider report confirmed for tomorrow.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DZ2dsiKXUAAykYK.jpg

Posted by: JohninMK | Apr 3, 2018 7:59:42 AM | 170

« previous page

The comments to this entry are closed.