Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 15, 2018

Syria - New 'Chemical Weapons' Fake Planned - Chlorine Though Will Not Do

During the seven years of the war on Syria several accusations were made that the government that it had used 'chemical weapons' against the attacking extremists. The Syrian government denied to have ever released any chemicals. The implausible to murky 'evidence' of such incidents always came from foreign paid  propaganda groups and extremists on the ground. They were likely staged to incriminate the government and to thereby induce military attacks by foreign states.

We currently see several reports which in their combination look like preparations for of another fake 'chemical weapon' incident.

On February 13 the Russian Center for the Reconciliation of Opposing Sides in Syria noted a warning of an upcoming false-flag 'chemical attack' incident:

"On the evening of February 12, a resident from the Serakab settlement located in the Idlib province called the Russian Center for Reconciliaition to notify (the center) about a chemical weapons attack that could be staged to provide footage for a foreign TV channel," the statement reads. "The caller said that earlier on February 12, Jabhat al-Nusra members travelling in three cars had brought more than 20 chlorine gas cylinders and personal protective equipment to Serakab," the Center added.

"According to the caller, members of the local While Helmets branch wore personal protective equipment while rehearsing first aid provision to civilians suffering from chemical poisoning," the Russian Center said.
"The caller pointed out that all the proceedings had been filmed by professional reporters who used a mic with the CNN logo, while commenting on the actions being taken by the White Helmets," the statement said, adding that in between takes, the reporters had consulted with some people over a satellite telephone in English.

The White Helmets are a mostly British funded propaganda organization embedded with Hayat Tahreer Al-Sham, the current incarnation of al-Qaeda in Syria which rules Idleb governorate. The head of al-Qaeda in Syria, Abu Jaber Al-Sheikh, lauded (video, alternative) the White Helmets as the "hidden soldiers of our revolution".

CNN is currently embedded with al-Qaeda and is producing White Helmets propaganda in Idleb governorate:

CNN Today‏ @cnntoday - 12:23 AM - 14 Feb 2018
EXCLUSIVE report from @arwaCNN in #Idlib Syria and @holmescnn has #TheBreakdown on more fighting in #Ghouta #Afrin #DeirEzzor

The Russian warning is not the only sign that another fake chemical weapon attack is coming up.

The Israeli government is pushing "top secret" disinformation into the public which preemptively blames the Syrian government for any upcoming incident. It is also attempts to influence foreign governments on the issue:

According to a "Top secret" cable sent to Israeli ambassadors earlier this week, Israel fears that the Assad regime will use the chemical weapons it still has left in a way which might spill over to Israeli territory. The contents of the cable were shared with me by senior Israeli officials.
[T]he strategic division in the Israeli ministry of foreign affairs sent the 'Top Secret" cable to 15 Israeli embassies around the world, including in Washington.
One of the more unusual instructions in the cable was to pass a strong message regarding the Israeli concern that the chemical weapons left at the disposal of the Assad regime might be used against rebel forces ...

On Tuesday the White Helmets were again trying to get more foreign powers involved in fighting the Syrian government:

France should stop talking about red lines and focus on real action to persuade the main actors in Syria’s conflict to agree a ceasefire, [Abdulrahman Almawwas], the vice-president of the Syria Civil Defence, or “White Helmets”, said on Tuesday.
Speaking after meeting senior French officials, including Macron’s chief diplomatic adviser, Almawwas said France needed to put pressure on the main protagonists, such as pushing for a no-fly zone, even though he acknowledged France had few options.

Only hours after Abdulrahman Almawwas spoke with Macron’s chief diplomatic adviser, the French president issued a statement which set up a 'red line' trap:

“On chemical weapons, I set a red line and I reaffirm that red line,” Macron told reporters. “If we have proven evidence that chemical weapons proscribed in treaties are used, we will strike the place where they are made.”

“Today, our agencies, our armed forces have not established that chemical weapons, as set out in treaties, have been used against the civilian population.”

Setting red lines is a trap for oneself as it includes an invitation to others to break them. Anyone can release 'chemical weapons' in insurgent controlled areas in Syria and blame the Syrian government - thus potentially triggering the French 'red line'. So far though France has "not established" that a real chemical weapon incident ever happened. Of note in Macron's statement was also the threat to strike at "the place where they are made". That place would likely be outside of Syria. The French Foreign Ministry noted Macorn's inconvenient choice of words, intervened and today "clarified" his remarks:

France's foreign minister on Wednesday sought to clarify his government's position on the use of chemical weapons in Syria saying that Paris would only strike if the attacks were lethal and carried out by government forces.
"(The president) confirmed that he would proceed to military strikes against regime installations if there was a new use of chemical weapons by Bashar al-Assad's forces when these attacks are lethal and regime's responsibility is proven," Jean-Yves Le Drian told lawmakers.

Al-Qaeda will have no problem to create a "lethal" chemical weapon attack. They have killed ten-thousands of Syrian without any remorse. To "prove" that the Syrian government did it will be the task of the White Helmets and its CNN and Atlantic Council collaborators.

Chlorine though will not do.

Source: Chlorine - Properties (vid) - bigger

In their last attempt to smear the Syrian government for using 'chemical weapons' those organizations hyped the remains of a few 107mmm rockets which allegedly carried chlorine gas and were fired against the Takfiri held areas of east-Ghouta. (Unmentioned were the thousands of grenades fired by east-Ghouta Takfiris against civilians in Damascus.)

If those rockets had held chlorine they would have had no effect on anyone.

Chlorine gas is hardly ever deadly. It is 2.5 times heavier than air with a distinct yellow-green color and a strong bleach odor. Chlorine gas will only kill those submerged in a high concentration cloud. If one sees or smells it one simply walks away from the cloud and thereby stays safe. Chlorine was used as the first chemical weapon in World War I because it would creep downwards into deep enemy ditches. Even then it was soon found to be ineffective as a weapon and replaced with other chemicals.

That a few rockets with a few pounds of chlorine would have no 'lethal' effect is also obvious from official reports during the U.S. occupation of Iraq:

The first documented chlorine attack was Oct. 21, 2006, in Ramadi, a Multinational Force Iraq spokeswoman said. In that attack, terrorists drove a car bomb with 12 120 mm mortar shells and two 100-pound chlorine tanks. The attack wounded three Iraqi policemen and a civilian.

The first attack that received media attention was at Taji, where terrorists remotely detonated a 5-ton truck packed with 100 pounds of high explosives and two 1-ton chlorine tanks. The attack killed one civilian and wounded 114 others.
The most recent attack was June 3 against Forward Operating Base Warhorse, in Diyala province. Again, a suicide car bomber launched the attack, and officials estimate it included two tanks of chlorine and 1,000 pounds of explosive. The cloud from the attack blew over Warhorse and sickened 65 servicemembers, Multinational Force Iraq officials said. All were examined and returned to duty.
A Multinational Force Iraq spokesman said there are anecdotal reports that while the blasts from the attacks have killed, few have died solely from the gas. “We hear that an old man and some babies may have been killed, but we can’t pin that down,” the spokesman said.

If literally tons of chlorine were used in attacks in Iraq with no deadly effect how could a few pounds on top of some small rockets kill anyone?

On February 2 the U.S. Secretary of Defense Mattis acknowledge the practical uselessness of chlorine by putting it into a "separate category" than other chemical weapons. He also noted that he has no evidence of any such weapon use:

Q: Is there evidence of chlorine gas weapons used -- evidence of chlorine gas weapons?

SEC. MATTIS: I think that's, yes --

Q: No, I know, I heard you.

SEC. MATTIS: I think it's been used repeatedly. And that's, as you know, a somewhat separate category, which is why I broke out the sarin as another -- yeah.

Q: So there's credible evidence out there that both sarin and chlorine --

SEC. MATTIS: No, I have not got the evidence, not specifically. I don't have the evidence.

What I'm saying is that other -- that groups on the ground, NGOs, fighters on the ground have said that sarin has been used. So we are looking for evidence. I don't have evidence, credible or uncredible.

NGOs and "fighters on the ground" claimed to have evidence of chemical weapon attacks. But just like the French agencies and armed forces Macron mentioned, Mattis and the DoD have none.

The Takfiris of al-Qaeda, the White Helmets propaganda shop and its media acolytes may well prepare, as the Russians report, another fake chemical attack stunt. The Israeli government is busy preparing the public relations ground. But the French government, having trapped itself with 'red line' nonsense, then set the mark higher at 'lethal' attacks.

Chlorine is, as shown above, hardly ever lethal. But al-Qaeda will have no qualms about coming up with a few corpses to prove the 'lethality' of a fake incident.

We also have seen how, with some outside help, a harmless chlorine release can be faked in an allegedly deadly sarin attack. Such happened in April 2017 in the Khan Sheikhun incident.

Multiple early on-the-ground reports by local witnesses and Turkish officials spoke of chlorine release and chlorine affected patients. Only a day later were these claims turned into an alleged "sarin attack". Real evidence was never obtained from the al-Qaeda ruled grounds where that incident happened. A discredited investigation was inconclusive. It claimed some "sarin-like substance" may have been involved but it could not even explain why more than 50 casualties of the claimed incident arrived at far away hospitals BEFORE it had happened at all:

The admission times of the [hospital] records range between 0600 and 1600 hours. Analysis of the aforementioned medical records revealed that in 57 cases, patients were admitted in five hospitals before the incident in Khan Shaykhun (at 0600, 0620 and 0640 hours).

One has to agree with Secretary of Defense Mattis on this - some corpses shown to CNN by "NGOs" and "fighters on the ground" are not real evidence. Neither are discredited investigations. If the al-Qaeda Takfiris and its supporters want to come up with some believable fake they must set their standard much higher.

Posted by b on February 15, 2018 at 11:35 AM | Permalink

next page »

Interesting that France has apparently declared that it will only attack if Syria is at fault. If Saudi Arabia is at fault, for example, or if the US is at fault, etc., France will not attack. If that is how they are putting it it's a blatant invitation for a pretext.

Meanwhile Russia will continue to sit back and enjoy the roasting and carve-up of Syria, while maintaining it's inside track (it hopes) as dealmaker....

Posted by: paul | Feb 15, 2018 12:11:00 PM | 1

When Is There Going to be Accountability for US Wars and Aggression?

From Global Research:

Posted by: ben | Feb 15, 2018 12:26:16 PM | 2

I sincerely doubt that France will attack the Syrian government. The US, Uk, and Israel are a different matter. Russia and Iran need to show some spine and close Syria’s airspace.

Posted by: Alaric | Feb 15, 2018 12:28:32 PM | 3

thanks b... there are a few things about this particular story worth discussing in greater depth..

israel is sending out "top secret" disinformation into the public which preemptively blames the Syrian government"... the white helmets continue to be a tool of the west - paid by the west for propaganda purposes and doing the same...

when the usa under trumps leadership bombed the syrian airport in the vicinity where the Khan Sheikhun incident took place, the usa never had any proof... the usa never had any proof for saddams weapons of mass destruction either... the usa doesn't need proof.. it is almost as if israel tells the usa what to do and they do it!

what is obvious is how the usa, uk, ksa, israel, turkey and france in particular - have been intent on regime change... they are not honest brokers in any of this.. that is very clear to anyone following this long story on the war on syria..

so why would it be any different here? it is true russia has played an alternative role to this madness... israel seems especially prone to want to make the middle east a huge war zone... all for what??

i remember that video from a few years ago showing the white helmet folks play acting with the kids in the school room.. why is the west so intent on regime change in syria and war 24/7??? where is any leadership that can stand apart from the indoctrination that israel wants to feed to foment war 24/7? where is the sanity? not everyone is fooled by this fact, i would venture to guess many more people are not believing in it... if the west is intent on war 24/7 in faraway lands, they are not going to get a pass with lies, propaganda and cheap disinformation...

Posted by: james | Feb 15, 2018 12:54:05 PM | 4

ben @3:

Accountability?   LOL   Many here share the same frustration, but it will only happen until someone with a bigger stick walks into the scene AND it's in their interest to do so.   If Rick Sterling is looking for the American public to rise and take command, he's going to be waiting for a long, long time.   IMO, the spark that gets the American public off their duff, is when economic hardship reaches to an intolerable level.   IIRC, the Yemen protests started with the rise in prices of food and someone decided enough was enough.   Unfortunately for them, the protests/riots ignited a civil war which was later taken over by foreign powers.

Posted by: Ian | Feb 15, 2018 1:09:24 PM | 5

France has a large and influential Jewish population. Macron is pandering to them. The allegation of chem weapons is reintroduced every time the SAA is poised for a major victory. Zionists and friends hope to get someone else to stop that progress and to hit Syria. It’s too risky for Israel to do so now that Syria hit its jets - best to let the goys die trying.

Posted by: Alaric | Feb 15, 2018 1:14:49 PM | 6

The US has used the R2Protect on numerous occasions along with various coalition parties, however in order to be legal R2Protect must have the backing of the UNSC, without a veto being used.Now we have France the UK and the US stating they will act militarily against Syria without UNSC approval, International law is surely dead, or it will only be used against states without the means to fight back against US aggression.

There is a fundamental contradiction written into the UN Charter on the one hand, article 2[1] states; "The organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members.” But, on the other hand, Article 23 of the Charter grants five of its Members permanent seats on the Security Council, and Article 27 gives each of them a veto over decisions of the Council. Clearly, all Members are equal, but some Members are more equal than others. Thus all five veto wielding powers the US, UK, France, China and Russia AND their friends are above International law, for all time. So that should all four veto wielding members gang up on the US, the US simply veto's the Resolution it is then consigned to the memory hole.
Academic lawyers in their thousands may protest that taking military action against Iraq for instance was illegal because it lacked proper authorisation by the Security Council, but it is of no consequence in the real world when there is no possibility of the UK, or its political leadership, being convicted for taking such action. It is meaningless to describe an action as illegal if there is no expectation that the perpetrator of the action will be convicted by a competent judicial body. In the real world, an action is legal unless a competent judicial body rules that it is illegal.

Posted by: harrylaw | Feb 15, 2018 1:21:07 PM | 7

Mao Tse-Tung was right, 'Power does grow out the barrel of a gun'.

Posted by: harrylaw | Feb 15, 2018 1:24:55 PM | 8

@8/9 harrylaw... here is a quote from a pdf from yesterday on the previous thread..

"The financial world is not a group of geeks in front of computers, it is not
polite clerks in banks and not even traders at stock exchanges. The financial
world is aircraft carriers, nuclear-powered submarines, tanks, fighters and
helicopters. It is infiltrators and assassins, snipers and spies, politicians
and public figures. And all of that is only needed to preserve the existing
financial order of the planet, to retain their dominance and even assert
it. The most interesting thing is that despite clear physical signs of such
world order, most people do not even have a slightest idea how everything
functions. And those who dominate, those who created this theatre of the
absurd, need exactly that.

using the bold text for the last line.. hopefully it doesn't screw the whole text up..

Posted by: james | Feb 15, 2018 1:33:54 PM | 9

harrylaw @8:

In all honesty, there's no such thing as International Law. I view it as a guideline. To have International Law, it would require all members to given up their sovereignty and submit to a single World government. There is no way I would condone that reality. The behavior of governments right now, should be enough reason to avoid that reality. Until the unwashed masses have the ability to run away from this wretched hive of scum and villainy, a single authoritative power should be avoided.

Posted by: Ian | Feb 15, 2018 2:06:00 PM | 10 (video)
"CNN's Arwa Damon is back in Idlib (controlled by #Syria/n branch of AQ, HTS). She could not report from there w/out their permission. In this part of her report u see her w/ #WhiteHelmets. Notice how some footage says "courtesy of Hadi Abdallah" who's a known AQ propagandist."

I recently re-read this piece

Going by the US embassy cables, US had brought its Afghanistan crew into Chechnya. Watching some videos on the Chechen "rebels" (Chechen converts to wahabbi, Arabs ect) the propaganda was no different then than it is today. US have been using this tried and true means of regime change with the accompanying propaganda since Afghanistan in the eighties. Russia saw through it with the second Chechen war and developed tactics to neutralize the US and their proxies there. Second Chechen war lasted about nine years.
In just a bit over two years, Russia has made a massive difference in Syria.
perhaps another six months to a year to clean up remaining pockets of US rebels, and then most likely concentrate on US occupation.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 15, 2018 2:22:07 PM | 11

Thanks for a timely piece b.

Given that CNN is now embedded with Al-Qaeda (reminiscent of when NPR, National Petroleum Radio, was doing its PR), and the French have declared a pretext for war, I would say that this is an indicator that a move is afoot to have an "event", to trigger a expanded war.

My reasoning is the following: Al-Qaeda is losing the war, the Turks are no longer on the same page as the Empire, the Russian election on March 18th, (causing pause for Mr. Putin), a new moon on March 16th (American troops always seem to move on that celestial event), and the end of the financial quarter, March 31, (signifying a "clearance" sale of military inventory to boost subsequent stock prices).

I can imagine the meeting that is going on currently ongoing between Mr. Tillerson and Mr. Erdogan.

Posted by: Michael | Feb 15, 2018 3:03:54 PM | 12

@13 myself

As an addendum, I should point out that the war against Syria has been very kind to Raytheon. Google Raytheon stock price and look at the 5 year performance. Right now it's doing very well. I just wonder if one could predict wars based upon stock performance.

Posted by: Michael | Feb 15, 2018 3:20:23 PM | 13

harrylaw 9
If William Hinton is largely accurate in his essay ' The Role of Mao T'se Tung' then Mao was correct about many things . Hinton' thesis leaves one wondering did Deng have Lin Piao murdered as he was onto Deng's revisionist purposes .In many ways these events from the China of the early 1970's truly laid the international stage on which we walk .

Posted by: ashley albanese | Feb 15, 2018 3:23:16 PM | 14

The French 'red line' is a set up as the French government aids and abets Al Qaeda in Syria. The next false flag attack is coming that will of course be blamed on the Syrian government.

I hope the Eastern nations have learned a lesson to never again trust the West.

Posted by: AriusArmenian | Feb 15, 2018 3:38:12 PM | 15

Dear Michael | Feb 15, 2018 3:03:54 PM | 13

There has been no US ambassador to Ankara for months. Bass was a real pain. Edelman couldn't complete his tenure, he was kicked out of the country, Ricciardone was a joke. The image of self-confident superpower US has been tarnished here. The USA is viewed as an extremely hysterical body contaminated with some naughty guys.

Turkish army is training units for 'river crossing' so I guess they will cross the Euphrates into the East. IMHO.
3.5m Syrian refugees in Turkey have to go back (the Canadian guy is showing off he has 25.000 refugees) Turks will not allow another space for Israeli settlers! Palestinians are in Jordan and Lebanon, Syrians are in Turkey. No way! WW3? Turks are ready for it. Because if they allow western plans to go through, they fear it'll be Turkey's turn next anyway.

The US led coalition of proxies (the US is seen as a proxy too) have to decide whether they will push the button for further destruction in the the region or pack up and leave. There is no in between. The NATO, US, EU all have been 'LYING' to the Turks for 70 years. Enough is enough people say here. The coup attempt (a failed one no matter what kind of propaganda circulates against it in the West) was the last straw!

USA cannot stay here. This region is part of the Turkish National Oath. There are post WW1 international agreements including Mosul and Kirkuk regions as well. If there are to be any changes in the status of the region then the Turks will reclaim their Misak-i Milli (pls google for the map). Euphrates Shield, Olive Branch and now there is another front: the Mediterranean Shield, Turkish navy is patrolling the oil rigs around Cyprus. The Turks are also sending clear messages to the US+EU oil companies (Israel): do not sneak up on me. The Turks (chief of staff) have clearly said that they are ready for a new front in the Aegean too. The navy has started to build up in the Aegean.

NATO have been attacking another NATO member, Turkey (military coup, PKK, Daesh, Gulenists). But they circulate propaganda in the west against that (Dictator Erdogan, poor Kurds, journalists are in jail etc.) to keep their public asleep.

Nobody wants the NATO in Turkey anymore. The End. French want conscription. Germans want EU army. They are in panic.

The US doesn't deliver their puppet Gulen to Turks, the US won't stop delivering arms to the PKK.

These are the latest slogans: No more NATO for Turks! No need for it anymore! Nuke Ankara or pack up and leave. Well, the Turks seem to be determined.

Tillerson and Erdogan talks? You don't need to eavesdrop their cozy room. TuAF figther jets are currently flying over Afrin!

This is just the summary of news and feelings I gathered in Turkey. I hope it's useful.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 15, 2018 4:13:41 PM | 16

@17 ConfusedPundit

Thank you. It is.

Posted by: Michael | Feb 15, 2018 4:20:47 PM | 17

Google Raytheon stock price and look at the 5 year performance. Right now it's doing very well. I just wonder if one could predict wars based upon stock performance.

Posted by: Michael | Feb 15, 2018 3:20:23 PM | 14

Since the US and its allies have had several wars, and are also in the middle of several more, during the last 5 years, googling the stock price of something like raytheon would only inform one that it certainly seems to have profited from all those wars.

one would still be left with the non-trivial conundrum of distinguishing and separating the effect of recent and on-going wars on the share-price, from any apparent effect from future or hoped-for wars on share-price

Posted by: Keizer | Feb 15, 2018 4:53:00 PM | 18

Wh guy was invited everywhere while in France: tv talkshow, radios...

Posted by: Mina | Feb 15, 2018 5:08:20 PM | 19

No Paul Syria and Russia are winning. From two years ago till today, more and more land area have come under Governement control....FACT FACT FACT suck that

Posted by: col | Feb 15, 2018 5:32:03 PM | 20

ConfusedPundit @17--

Adam Garrie thinks Tillerson's Ankara trip is "Dead on Arrival." He cites a "a lengthy op-ed in the Daily Sabah that's brutally blunt. Garrie also provides an excellent analysis of the Outlaw US Empire's non-quagmire Afghanistan quagmire. The similarity in policy goals between Syria and Afghanistan is striking.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 15, 2018 5:35:09 PM | 21

@23 yes, paul’s mission (and his other small caps first name only handles) is to denigrate Russia’s (Pooteen) position every chance he/she gets.. Tiresome but hey, just skip it..

Posted by: Lozion | Feb 15, 2018 7:52:41 PM | 22

“On chemical weapons, I set a red line and I reaffirm that red line,” Macron told reporters. “If we have proven evidence that chemical weapons proscribed in treaties are used, we will strike the place where they are made.”
I think this is the kicker. The last hasty strike was against the supposed launch site of a chemical weapons attack. This would be a strike to the heart of Syrian Administration, again with zero evidence. Most likely it will be a compound with Syrian and Russian officials. Deliberate escalation.

Posted by: rob | Feb 15, 2018 9:19:43 PM | 23

b-Thank you, very informative article, as always!

Posted by: frances | Feb 15, 2018 9:29:14 PM | 24

rob @26--

The chemical precursors that are the components to weaponized chemicals are most often produced by major Western chemical corporations, like DuPont, and are produced in Germany, France, UK, USA, etc., not Syria. If glyphosphate were used as a weapon, should Monsanto get bombed to smithereens? How about napalm's basic ingredients? How about the chemicals that comprise gunpowder? In their most basic essence, all weapons are chemical. Should all chemical weapons be outlawed?

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 15, 2018 9:33:26 PM | 25

karlof1 | Feb 15, 2018 9:33:26 PM | 28

Careful there; gunpowder was originally, potassium nitrate (natual; bat guano), sulphur (natural occurrence), and charcoal.
But, your point is taken...

Posted by: V. Arnold | Feb 15, 2018 9:43:41 PM | 26

As for more NATO/France/US war against ASSAD:

The French can't fly over the part he owns. They will get Russian missiles up their holes.

Are they going to attack on the ground? From Saudi or Jordan?

Maybe they think the Iranians and Iraqis will stand by and watch?

If they do anything, it will be Israeli-style. They'll violate Lebanonese airspace and fire missiles into Damascus, Aleppo, Homs, and various military bases.

But, they will not make war. They can't. They just want to bomb (if they could) and fire missiles.

And at that point, France, NATO, the US are finished in the ME. Done. Kaput.

Russia will seal the airspace and protect the Syrian nation.
China will pour in infrastructure technology and start to rebuild.

There is a moral limit that the warmongers are paused to cross.

France will find itself a pariah in the neighborhood. No one will let France get away with another Libya.

The US is playing a very ill-conceived strategy. It is trying to win a geopolitical game in Syria, reduce its exposure but hold Iraq, step up the war in Afghanistan and spread it against and into Pakistan. All these are to be on-going wars so they contain and tie down Iran. This is not at all an anti-terror strategy.

A big part they would like to accomplish is to destroy Syria. That's to stop Iran connecting to Lebanon. Assad is a side piece. Syria has to go, not just Assad.

The war is by proxies and Syria is (accordingly) Iran. The Syrian War 2.0 is now Iran's borderland war.

That is one of three wars Syria stands for. The other two are the war against Turkey (using Kurds) and the war against Russia in Syria (Israel and the US cannot abide Russia as regional hegemon).

What has been proved is the S-400, S-300, Pantsir and even S-200 could shut down the war if Russia would double or triple the installations, cover all of Syria, all of Lebanon and turn it all on when the warmongers fly.

Posted by: Red Ryder | Feb 15, 2018 9:49:23 PM | 27

@6 Ian

Even if people in the US or elsewhere in the west rise up against their governments, a hypothetical uprising won’t progress beyond chaotic random violence and state repression. Why? With no alternative economic/political system or an inspiring political vision for people to rally around revolution can’t and won’t happen. Many people know what they don’t want...but they do not have a coherent idea of what they do want. End result: Collapse and “failed state” status or, more likely, TPTB in control again.

Besides, the vast majority of people on the internet who babble about revolution are just spouting nonsense and don’t think through what they are saying. The internet is great at providing a dynamic illusion of active engagement when in reality it is isolated individuals sitting and typing stuff on their digital devices and deluding themselves that their pet theories are 100% true and dissenters and critics are all idiots, trolls or spies.

e.g. The people who have convinced themselves that Putin will stop the “coalition” from dividing Syria simply ignore any evidence that might challenge their delusion, or confidently label it fake news and move on. They are victims of the cognitive biases they never take into consideration. Look at the response commentator Paul gets for casting doubt on Putin’s reliability. Doubt is poisonous and must be vanquished at all costs! Critical thinking and applied psychology aren’t very popular in the alt-blogosphere.

The scientific method attempts to disprove a hypothesis. If it can’t be disproven...the theory stands. If that standard were applied here and on other alt and MSM sites...well, there would be howls of of outrage and disbelief and a doubling down on psychic abilities and groupthink in a desperate bid to keep the delusions alive.

Posted by: Temporarily Sane | Feb 15, 2018 10:11:11 PM | 28

Chlorine is lethal if released in cellars or other confined spaces - especially if the victims are hanging upside down from the roof.

(This is what analysis of the Caesar photos indicates may have happened, starting in 2012.)

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Feb 15, 2018 10:27:32 PM | 29

karlof1 | Feb 15, 2018 9:33:26 PM | 28

I take your point that most chemical precursors are made by various industrialised countries in the main for legitimate, peaceful reasons. My comment was regarding the difference between attacking the supposed launch point of those weapons compared to striking the place where chemical weapons are imagined to be produced - "... we will strike the place where they are made.
I do not think Syria has launched any chemical weapon attacks. The Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons confidently confirmed that all such weapons were destroyed back in June 2014.
I think that Macron's statement is part of a new move to suggest that Syria is rebuilding its chemical weapons stockpile as an excuse to attack Syrian forces.

Posted by: rob | Feb 15, 2018 11:38:11 PM | 30

Party in the CIA

Gotta love the classics.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 16, 2018 12:16:58 AM | 31

Petri Krohn @ 32: You forgot to mention that the gassed victims had all been bludgeoned in the backs of their heads before they were gassed. They could have been dead before the gas was released.

Posted by: Jen | Feb 16, 2018 12:37:52 AM | 32

b - "If the al-Qaeda Takfiris and its supporters want to come up with some believable fake they must set their standard much higher."

What are the odds that evil thinking - devoid of creativity almost by definition, but certainly by recent demonstration - can do better than it has? I don't gamble but in this case I would bet my own money against the ability of this particular evil to improve its game.


So let's parse this. A chemical atrocity occurs. The narrative is full of holes, so people on this side have clarity as to the event. But no matter for the people on the other side, because the propaganda narrative carries all before it, regardless of the facts.

In this sense, the false flag, the hoax event, succeeds.

But in what other sense can it succeed?

So the west has the indoctrinated portion of its populace convinced that somebody is a bad guy and needs to be stomped. And then what? Exactly who is going to stomp what?

This is a the classic illustration of the dog chasing the car - what in the hell is the dog going to with it, if it should even catch it? And how does it even "catch" it?

The US is powerless to go beyond the narrative. We have seen this again and again and again. If it could act, it would act, and it wouldn't even bother to create a narrative for the action - except maybe after the fact, if someone was getting uppity. A story would be spun out by the media, and this would serve. These things can be done to order.

So why is the ground being set for a narrative supporting a false flag - and I accept that it is - when nothing can proceed from the event?

The answer has to do with functional IQ rather more than with cleverness. And the functional IQ of the US and of Israel and of Zionism is destroyed. All that's left is chasing the car.

Or perhaps even as little as barking. While the caravan moves on.

Posted by: Grieved | Feb 16, 2018 12:49:03 AM | 33

Grieved | Feb 16, 2018 12:49:03 AM | 37
The answer has to do with functional IQ rather more than with cleverness. And the functional IQ of the US and of Israel and of Zionism is destroyed.
All that's left is chasing the car.

Really? I see the loss of functional IQ (and I agree) as very dangerous; stupidity goes to war; intellegence finds another way...hopfully...

Posted by: V. Arnold | Feb 16, 2018 1:08:10 AM | 34

@38 V. Arnold

Yes, I agree - except that it takes intelligence to conduct war. Maybe stupidity goes to war, but stupidity loses.

In this age of proxies, we see mini-wars, all the time. And the US loses in every action.

We are watching the decline of the US. By what increments are we watching this, if not by its own failing actions? Each loss diminishes the power of the US - this is the great thing.

These actions are proxy and direct skirmishes that could in other contexts be called full-on wars, but in this age of global luxury are simply maneuvers.

And this is my point, even as I take your point, and very seriously. My point is that if the US had some IQ left it would be horrifically dangerous. Three years ago we thought it had the functional intelligence to be that kind of threat. But today, we see it hemmed in by players such as Russia and China, and Iran - players watching its every move and countering each one with intelligent responses designed (hopefully) to neutralize the potential damage.

This is why commenters here and everywhere get impatient and wonder why these nations don't show a little more cowboy action to thrill them in their armchairs. The answer is that Russia and China are taking the sins of the west onto themselves and absorbing the pain so that the entire world doesn't blow up. And they are doing this so well that we should fall on our knees in gratitude for their high functional IQ in the presence of the crippled and failing US and Israel and Zionism - the once fiercely high IQ brought low by evil, and now the current moron, the dotard.

Posted by: Grieved | Feb 16, 2018 1:31:29 AM | 35

Grieved | Feb 16, 2018 1:31:29 AM | 39

Great response. Thanks. And zero nits to pick... ;-)

Posted by: V. Arnold | Feb 16, 2018 1:53:03 AM | 36

@ Grieved who wrote: "......The answer is that Russia and China are taking the sins of the west onto themselves and absorbing the pain so that the entire world doesn't blow up......."

I agree that many do not see the strategy and sacrifice of the forces aligned against empire and appreciate your pointing it out.

The demise of the latest, and hopeful final empire cannot come soon enough, IMO

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 16, 2018 2:32:32 AM | 37

That CNN report from Idlib was shown last night on Australia's SBS news, following the screening of an equally deceptive "CNN exclusive" two days earlier about the US attack on Syrian forces in Deir al Zour.
What worried me here, is that the WH footage doesn't have to be credible, because the audience will now believe anything. The endless rescreening of a child "Sarin victim", flushed red in the face and gasping for air, while being hosed by the WH, proves this point. Even the dumbos in the white Helmets must realise that Sarin causes paralysis and anoxia, but film of that wouldn't be very convincing, or give the impression that they are saving people.
All they need to do is create a green cloud from the chlorine, and sacrifice a few innocent hostages for the snuff video, and SBS watchers will believe it, and press their leaders to say "enough is enough". The stage is well set.

Posted by: David M | Feb 16, 2018 2:37:32 AM | 38

psychohistorian | Feb 16, 2018 2:32:32 AM | 41

"......The answer is that Russia and China are taking the sins of the west onto themselves and absorbing the pain so that the entire world doesn't blow up......."

Agree. And that point cannot be empathised too much.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Feb 16, 2018 3:07:06 AM | 39

So, same old story, another fake attack to justify more bombing and more death, all this will be ably supported by the likes of CNN with breathlessly fake reporting - MSM journalists, are nothing more than the propaganda arm of the military industrial complex, their career prospects mean more to them than human life and theirr lies have led to the deaths of millions of innocents, they should all be sitting in prison cells serving out life-time sentences for war crimes and genocide - in a just world they would be but, unfortunately WE ARE RULED BY PSYCHOPATHS.

Posted by: Rich | Feb 16, 2018 3:33:15 AM | 40

Grieved, psychohistorian, V. Arnold

The US is now run by the spoilt, debauched, offspring of the empire builders. To compound their problems, both Russia and China are no longer hemmed in by ideology, and both have excellent leadership.
The perfect storm, that will hopefully sink the USS hegemon.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 16, 2018 3:36:36 AM | 41

Re: Posted by: rob | Feb 15, 2018 9:19:43 PM | 26

I would bet the Russians have conveyed to Macron in recent days that any French warships, destroyers, Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier? in theatre in the Eastern Mediterranean would be a legitimate target for retaliation by Syria or its allies - Iran and most particularly Russia, should it be a party to a kinetic attack on the Syrian Government.

Those pesky Russian subs have plenty of capable torpedoes do they not?

Speaking of the Charles de Gaulle - where is it anyhow?

Posted by: Julian | Feb 16, 2018 3:54:00 AM | 42

Re: Posted by: Temporarily Sane | Feb 15, 2018 10:11:11 PM | 31

Your are quite right - Syria is done as it used to be and will be further partitioned. If this there is little doubt.

Anyone who thinks Israel will willingly leave the Golan Heights, or indeed will be forced out of the Golan Heights, is delusional. Who will force them out??

Anyone who thinks Turkey will willingly leave the Northern Syrian lands won from the Kurds,, or indeed will be forced out of places like Afrin, is delusional. Who will force them out?

As for Idlib. I think they will leave, reluctantly, but that's not really them, only their all-Qaeda proxies.

Posted by: Julian | Feb 16, 2018 4:16:03 AM | 43

Julian | Feb 16, 2018 4:16:03 AM | 47
Anyone who thinks Turkey will willingly leave the Northern Syrian lands won from the Kurds,, or indeed will be forced out of places like Afrin, is delusional. Who will force them out?

As for Idlib. I think they will leave, reluctantly, but that's not really them, only their all-Qaeda proxies.

Or; sees a different corner and thinks with a different part of their brain...

Posted by: V. Arnold | Feb 16, 2018 5:06:42 AM | 44

Temporarily Sane @31:

I agree that a plan is needed, along with strong leadership to champion and carry it out. However, Western nations really don't need a revolution, unless you consider driving out corruption in government a revolution. IMO, they just need some reforms, a return to Rule of Law, and undo the damages brought about from corruption. Uprisings will occur when economic hardships becomes intolerable, especially when there is deep division within the nation.

Regarding comments of Russia and the prevention of Syria's partition, it's called hope. Very similar to supporters of Obama and Trump. However, I do disagree with Paul. I don't believe Russia is enjoying seeing Syria divvied up. It's a typical case of Realpolitik.

Posted by: Ian | Feb 16, 2018 5:59:53 AM | 45

karlof1 | Feb 15, 2018 5:35:09 PM | 22

Thanks. Good article.

"Dead on Arrival." ? Yes but I think the visit is beneficial to the USA somehow. They need to gain time. Tillerson's visit (including the announcement prior to it) didn't please the public. The talks ended and the public isn't pleased.

Tillerson (US govt) is a duck. He walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. The 1% has all the money and the US policy is therefore their policy. This is the mindset over here.

I think the US policymakers and their allies elsewhere are waiting for the elections in Turkey for an oppurtunity to curb the Erdogan govt. But it's not just up to the Erdogan's govt to decide what the Turks should do about the Syrian crisis.

Meanwhile we were bombarded with some propaganda via the anti-govt. media: 'Israel-TR are friends' and 'Russia-Assad-Iran are supplying weapons to the PKK' 'the USA is a superpower, we cannot challenge them, they made a mistake but we can sort it out'.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 16, 2018 6:46:20 AM | 46

There's a lot to like about this plot. And I like all of it, especially the bits no-one is bothering to mention. Skipping over the fact that Jews invented Christianity, wrote and starred in a huge chunk of the screenplay known as the Bible, AND the the fact that post-Biblical "Israel" thinks a gas false flag is a brilliant idea (for someone else to lead), it should be obvious that this particular Crusade is already shaping up to be a howler and it hasn't even begun.
As b points out, the saner members of France's post-Napoleonic Daydream Club are already having second thoughts about committing France to running the Russian gauntlet in Syria.

And who's to blame for that? Well, it's Bibi of course. He's the dork who thought it seemed like a good idea to teach Iran a lesson, last Saturday, by telling the IAF to fly into Syria, humiliate themselves and put Syria's self-defense apparatus on 24/7 Red Alert.
I'm hoping we'll all get to see a 'leaked' copy of Micron's memo to Bibi 'thanking' Him for all his 'help'.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 16, 2018 7:32:40 AM | 47

This is also interesting. Barzani's oil to Erdogan's Turkey and then to Israel.

"OOPS, THEY DID IT AGAIN! A shipment of KRG crude oil departed Dortyol yesterday aboard the MARIKA. She disappeared and then reappeared hours later as a completely new vessel that has ABSOLUTELY ZERO HISTORY. Vessel characteristics match. Now in Ashkelon, Israel."

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 16, 2018 8:20:31 AM | 48

Like you lot, I don't see France doing anything by itself, but it is in NUTO. They would lead the call to 'DO SOMETHING' at the UN and NUTO will support them whatever, keeping reservations behind closed doors in a locked closet, IMOHO. It's not as if the West hasn't ignored the UN rules before (Kosovo, 1999) so the cat is well and truly out of the bag. What a bunch of non-consensual cherry poppers.

Posted by: et Al | Feb 16, 2018 12:59:03 PM | 49

A day after Tillerson's visit to Turkey the Russian RT comes up with this fake news piece

"BREAKING: Turkey hits Kurds with toxic gas, 6 civilians injured – Syrian media"

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 16, 2018 6:46:12 PM | 50

ConfusedPundit | Feb 16, 2018 6:46:12 PM | 51

Confused to say the least; the story attributes to the Syrian media as ststed.

Turkish forces engaged in Operation Olive Branch against Kurdish militias in the northwest of Syria have used gas, Syrian state media SANA reports. At least six civilians have been hospitalized.t

Posted by: V. Arnold | Feb 16, 2018 10:32:19 PM | 51

RT fake news seriously undermines credibility. Turks seemed happy to be friends with the Russians but they don't like imposition and are having second thoughts about Putin. TR FM's tweet criticise RT. Sana's report causes a problem. Some Turks want govt. to mend ties with Assad and this option was gaining grounds in the country. Sana's report forces people to stick with Erdogan's narrative: Assad is a murderer. Other Syrian efforts are seen as a call for help but this one is no good. Syria and Russia lost a lot of PR points yesterday.

The Jerusalem Post follows the suit (Turks like this one because it just confirms that Israel is a hostile entity)

Kurdish YPG: Turkish army hit village in Syria's Afrin with suspected gas

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 17, 2018 2:34:52 AM | 52

I am afraid the resident pro-turkish troll a.k.a. confused pundit has achieved his task of getting the conversation nowhere. Given that the Turkish media are the biggest peddlers of Assad the chemist and barrel bomber meme, it is probably too bad they were hit by their own medicine, hahaha :D

Posted by: BG | Feb 17, 2018 6:03:27 AM | 53

A confused pundit that does't give a fuck about what regime he lives under according to one of his first posts here at moa. BG @54 lays out the basics.
Fuck off CP.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 17, 2018 6:22:36 AM | 54

BG & Peter AU 1

My opinions are based on 'facts'. My debates are based on 'facts'. I'm also open minded. Correct me when necessary. Truth sets all of us free.

There are 2 main media camps in Turkey: pro and anti-Erdogan.
TBH, I'm happy with neither. There are 2 main categories of pro-Erdogan media: those who have world class reporting style and those who are, well, headcases. The latter justify their ridiculous reporting style by pointing their finger at some national and international media outlets who are hilarious themselves. It's a troll fighting. Check this one out: French 24 reports from Kurdish town of Manbij. In this particular case the French 24 is no better than the worst stupid media outlet you can think of. Manbij is actually 90% Arabic town. And that's a FACT! So how do you explain F24's fake reporting? Is it not 'fake'? No because the French make good wines?

AFP, Reuters, US media, all frequently report in the same manner as the French 24.
These news sources have self-proclaimed credibility 'imposed' on you. They have shareholders too. And because of the pressure, imposition, they deserve respect without any question? I'm afraid I'm not the kind of person who yields to such rubbish. Tell me it is a propaganda effort and I can understand that, but if you pretend you report on such and such 'principles'... For God's sake, get lost. In my book, what they are doing is called a cunning act.

So, I know SANA is Assad's propaganda channel. Fair enough. SOHR is, well, OTT. Maybe it's because the staff have once been abducted by aliens or something. RT boosts Sana's fake news. JP relays it too. So obviously, coinciding with Tillerson's meeting with Turkish officials, the Rus+SR guys were a bit upset and wanted show the Turks their teeth perhaps? The last sentence is my me speculating.

I don't understand why am I wrong in pointing this out? Where's any trolling in it? Have you guys gone out of your minds? Or are you trolls yourselves? I am NOT. Dream on.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 17, 2018 7:36:20 AM | 55

@56 confused pundit.. the problem as i see it cp, is that the turkish media is a very poor source for being educated on what is going on with regard to syria... in fact, as an outsider who traveled to turkey in 2012 and loved turkey and it's people, i can say erdogan has had a negative influence on the affairs of turkey and on the openness of it's media... the fact that Enis Berberoglu has been given a jail sentence for revealing the military arms being sent to syria ought to tell you all you need to know about just how open erdogans gov't is! in fact, erdogan has been responsible for much of the mayham in syria, in spite of his pretensions...

erdogan is a much bigger problem for turkey then feto or gulen and all that... he has pushed turkey in a direction which i think historians will look back on as unfavourable to the best interests of turkey... he also seems intent on forcing a particular religious ideology that is not inclusive either... the fact he wants to silence any opposition with jail sentences, or threats of legal actions are all very bad signs to anyone who has a modicum of detachment here... sorry confused pundit, but i tend to agree with @54 bg an @55 peter in that it is hard to view you as objective in any of this here! it would be like me saying the same of erdogan!!

Posted by: james | Feb 17, 2018 1:39:01 PM | 56

Dear james | Feb 17, 2018 1:39:01 PM | 57

I wish I could replace Erdogan with Elvis Presley.

But I can't.

I can't wake German people up either. Nor can I give FED to an American. I can't take the Swedish media from foreigners and give it back to the Swedish people either. I can't help Soros topple Netanyahu nor can I help the latter against the current attacks of the former.

Erdogan is not an Elvis but he is not as bad as he is depicted in the West either. He is the good guy for the local people. He is the bad one overseas. That is why he is under constant attack, not because he is a bad guy locally. He just doesn't bow to the guys the US+EU people do.

I'm glad you have been to Turkey. I have spent some years abroad myself. I know Asia, US, EU, ME. I can compare countries, cultures, politics, and their people.

I think one problem Erdogan cannot solve is this: International PR. But that's utopic considering the fact that the international media is controlled by a group of Peruvians or was it Senegalese? Anyway.

"Will Erdogan Send in Assassins to Kill Europe’s Leaders?" - Michael Rubin
"Biggest impediment to finish the war against ISIS is Turkey" - David Ignatius
"Turkey's Erdogan is a criminal. Our foreign policy should treat him as such." - Michael Rubin
"Stand Up to Erdogan’s Brutality
The Turkish president has the insolence to style his ethnic-cleansing campaign ‘Operation Olive Branch.’"Bernard-Henri Lévy

The western public opinion cannot survive above pressure. Take yourself for example, you like CHP's leader. He is actually a puppet. A gang member. A thief. A liar. A snake. A fascist. But you like him. I wonder who does his PR?

Erdogan has pushed Turkey in the wrong direction? In what direction? People call it war of independence here. I think the US and EU people should do the same! You have to render unto Erdogan his due! What alternative direction would you prefer, Turkey should remain as a vassal state? And I'm a Turkish troll if I tell the truth?

No, he doesn't want to silence any opposition with jail sentences! What makes you think so?
Somebody was jailed for running a Nazi website in Germany. Is that a crime? But Erdogan cannot jail an agent who got involved in the coup in Turkey? That's capitulations for the Ottoman Empire. Where is Udo? Where is Jörg Haider? Where are the nazi killers of Turkish shopowners? All died but one? In the West the dissidents, whistleblowers are murdered, they are not put in jail. There are hundreds of cases. Erdogan didn't kill them! You have real Erdogans over there, this one over here is rather docile I'm telling you. Erdogan is not the issue, the problem in the West is that they don't have a puppet and they can't admit that, they just want to hide behind ridiculous excuses.

No, Erdogan has NOT been responsible for much of the mayham in Syria. That is the most ridiculous claim I have ever heard. It's not because of some plan exluding Erdogan, it's not because of Gulf money and US weapons collected from all over the world, it's not because of Assad, it's not because of Israel, Iran, Syria, Russia but because of Erdogan? It's not because of the PKK who grabbed 30% of the land, invaded Afrin which has Turkmen-Arab majority, Manbij with overwhelming Arab majority, Tal Abyad with 98% Turkmen majority but because of Erdogan? It's not because of the high ranking Israeli observers who are presently stationed along with the Americans in each of their bases? You are either pulling my leg or there is too much propaganda in your turf. LOL.

Now could you please tell me what you think about the French 24 case I mentioned above @ 56? BTW, Erdogan is not French. Thank you in advance. Cheers.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 17, 2018 5:47:24 PM | 57

@58 confused pundit...

thanks... lets break apart some of your post.. the quotes on erdogan are all from jewish last names - i guess they write in the nyt, wapo, or what have you in the usa, or israel.... they could just as easily say the same thing on netanyahu, but i doubt they do.. in fact, i admired erdogan when he challenged the flotilla that went into gaza - mari maurana, or whatever it was called... at the time it was clear he was not a fan of israels apartheid system... i admired him for that - back in 2010 or whenever...

but now, you will notice erdogan thrives on throwing countless turkish people, whether they are in the media, in political opposition, or teachers and ordinary people he thinks are a part of the gulen network.. it is just like an endless witch hunt! and however his fans in turkey want to praise him - we are going to have to agree to disagree with his overall agenda here, and especially as regards syria...

as for the media in france - i take a very dim view on france at this point.. macron is just a stooge for the empire - usa/uk/israel.. it's media is beholden to these same interests.. i would use a very long pole touching anything french media has to say on anything, but especially on anything to do with the middle east, or turkey...

hopefully this suffices! cheers james

Posted by: james | Feb 17, 2018 6:36:15 PM | 58

from Al Monitor, the US will double the number of Russian rifles going to anti-Syria forces

The Donald Trump administration is seeking to more than double the number of assault rifles it provides to Syrian Kurds and other US-backed fighters despite rising anger from NATO ally Turkey.

Budget figures released Feb. 15 reveal that the Pentagon plans to give its Syrian partners — including the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) — more than 25,000 AK-47s, the gas-powered Soviet-era gun that has become a fixture in Syria’s seven-year civil war. The low cost and accessibility of the Kalashnikovs make them easy for US-backed troops to sustain as the Pentagon looks to hold territory won back from the Islamic State (IS) in the Euphrates River Valley.. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Feb 17, 2018 9:59:03 PM | 59

Dear james | Feb 17, 2018 6:36:15 PM | 59

Thank you. I'm not a pro-Erdogan guy but I have difficulty in not sounding like one because of my truth-seeking efforts during debates.

The Gulen network is an Intelligence Network owned by the CIA. Therefore the Witch Hunt will continue in Turkey. Since it is an intelligence network, their members are embbeded in every part of the society. Since it is an intelligence network owned by the CIA and supported by the CIA and by their stations in Germany and elsewhere, and since the CIA is in denial, we will encounter your kind of arguments forever.

The witch hunt didn't start with Erdogan. Those who started it were either killed by the Gulen (CIA) Network or put in jail by the Gulen Network.

The Gulen Network is presented as a hot girl by the CIA but the Turks caught her picking her nose.
Marry her. Most commenters here in MoA support the CIA version of the case and I think they can marry her too and have their family sessions of nose picking.

The Turkish people don't want her.

Why do we talk about Erdogan sending people to jail but not what CIA is doing now? Because it means that the CIA is still in denial, they are successful in diversion efforts, they are still using 'the Gulen Network'. His network is all over the world helping out the CIA. The CIA is still hoping that they'll get rid of Erdogan and find away to tackle the issue afterwards. It's not an issue, it's a bomb ticking in the CIA's hand. They are hoping that they'll throw it to our side. That's is why they are denying any involvement and the Gulenists deny it too even if there is hard proof. Because if they confess it, they'll have problems in Turkey even after Erdogan's reign. The CIA and their bosses and their allies have a mess in their hands. They killed many people in Turkey. They can successfully deny it by overpowering a small country, but that doesn't mean that they are not quilty.

I'm not a pro or anti-Erdogan guy. I'm not a pro or anti-US guy. I'm trying to be a fair guy.

But, I will never accept any argument which points the finger at Erdogan instead of the CIA. I'm saying it's the CIA but maybe it's the Starbucks or Subway Sandwiches. Maybe the CIA is just a patsy. I'm not an expert. All I know is that Erdogan bashing = CIA in denial, damage control, an attempt to gain time, hunting for another opportunity and so on.

You may not agree with me but don't worry, the CIA will!

Now is Erdogan an angel? No, he has been making a lot of mistakes. He is bound to make more mistakes. But, an ally means that you help him, for example you can hand over Gulen and his followers to Turkey thus you won't complain that Erdogan is jailing innocent people anymore. How about that? Isn't that a more practical solution? Nevermind, I know the US won't admit it's guilt and this debate will go on and on and I'm OK with it.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 18, 2018 5:02:50 AM | 60

@60 confused pundit.. thanks...

lets make a comparison here....

witch hunt on gulen network in turkey...

witch hunt on russian influence on usa 2016 election...

see any similarities?

the product is - both gov'ts - turkey and the usa - get to engage and a full psychological war on it's own people..

maybe go back to the salem witch hunts to get a fuller pic of why people call them witch hunts... they are run by fanatics who benefit from the ongoing witch hunt..

instead of choosing between erdogan and the cia, think about some other possible choices.. this choice you have been given has been served up to you on a platter by none other then erdogan himself... he has everything to gain in framing it this way, when so little of it is based on fact... same deal with the usa witch hunt on russia... cheers james

Posted by: james | Feb 18, 2018 1:14:53 PM | 61

@ ConfusedPundit
Erdogan/Turkey has taken ownership of a section of jihadists from Idlib and west Aleppo for the attack on Afrin. Chlorine has been used at various times in Idlib, so a good chance the jihadists tried it at Afrin. As Turkey has taken ownership of them, a chlorine attack if it did occur is ultimately Turkey's responsibility.
It is a toss up for me as to if you are genuine or a top end 'cyber warrior' (as they are called in the US military) serving up high class disinformation. A post like 50 and I lean heavily to your motive as disinformation.

Turkey is perhaps key to how the current battle between US and Russia in the middle east ends up. Genuine voices/opinions from Turkey would be invaluable in watching the US/Russia battle, but very few about.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 18, 2018 2:30:24 PM | 62

@peter au.. i lean towards confused pundit being unintentionally ignorant while steeped in a mild type of erdogan worship.. this is why i continue to talk with him!

Posted by: james | Feb 18, 2018 2:51:21 PM | 63

Dear James and Peter AU 1

1) Peter, what's wrong with @50? It's a fact, the source is Sana, RT quotes it and the report circulates around the world. Where is me spreading disinformation in it?

2) "In two consecutive tweets posted on his official Twitter page, Trump said he obtained evidence that will prove 13 high-ranking CIA officers helped in Turkey’s “Failed Coup” and that Obama’s “failed leadership” caused this “stupid mistake” witch put USA interest in Middle East at risk. [AWD News]"

3) Look, I am not going to change my mind about it. It's the CIA. It's got nothing to do with Erdogan. You are telling me that my nick is not CP. Sorry, you are wrong. Ask the CIA, they'll confirm me. LOL.

4) I'm not a cyber warrior, a troll or whatsoever. You guys are serious? You don't take my word for it? Then you are not being very friendly. Or maybe you are paranoid? In that case I'm allowed to be paranoid too, I think you work for the CIA. LOL.

5) "i lean towards confused pundit being unintentionally ignorant" James, thank you, that's reasonable. I told you I was open minded. I'm ready to be properly informed. It's just that I have not been disproven by you as yet!

You guys want to see some Gulenists? They share the same views as you. They'll tell you it's not the CIA and Erdogan is the bad guy. Have fun.

ilhan tanir @WashingtonPoint
Abdullah Bozkurt @abdbozkurt

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 18, 2018 4:26:18 PM | 64

@64 confused pundit.. just to be clear.. i don't doubt cia meddling in turkey... that, i don't doubt.. however, i don't doubt a lot of foreign intelligence agencies being involved in any number of countries, including turkeys intel MIT being involved in syria for example... however, at what point to do accept that this is what foreign intel groups do, verses turning them into some huge monster to further the career aspirations of some fanatical leader - erdogan?

i will also grant you that the cia has a history of subverting democracies around the globe, and it would not surprise me that the cia was more heavily invested in turkey given it's geopolitical relevance on a number of levels.. all that said - erdogan is making hay while the sun shines here at the stupidity of the regular guy on the turkish street... whether he packages it in som akp/ religio type packaging, i see the continued clamp down on the media, throwing opposition members in jail, or any opposition to his viewpoint in jail, or slapping libel charges on this, that and the other person who might see things differently as a sign of they level of tyranny on erdogans part... this guy is not a level headed guy.. he continues to do more damage to turkey then not..

Posted by: james | Feb 18, 2018 5:43:29 PM | 65

So the Kurds grab a slice of Syria for their Rojava project and now they want the Syrian army to protect them from the Turks. Have I got that right?

"Kurdish fighters in northern Syria say they have struck a deal with the Syrian government under which it will send troops to help repel a Turkish offensive.
The Syrian government in Damascus has offered no confirmation.
Turkey regards the Kurdish fighters, just across its border in Afrin, as terrorists. It launched a major offensive against them last month."

There is currently no Syrian military presence in the area.

Posted by: dh | Feb 18, 2018 7:30:44 PM | 66

@dh - read elijah j. m's latest article.. cheers.

Posted by: james | Feb 18, 2018 7:37:48 PM | 67

@67 I had to work at that a little bit james. Do you mean this?

If I read it right the SAA would be willing to take over Afrin. They already made that offer I believe. Seems the sticking point may be the disarming of Kurdish fighters. I guess they just don't trust anybody which is par for the course in the region.

Posted by: dh | Feb 18, 2018 7:50:45 PM | 68

@68 dh.. yes - that is it.. i think the interesting take away is whether the kurds want to entertain their allegiance to the usa, or whether they want to explore being a part of syria... i don't know how they are answering this, but it appears like they might be swayed to the syrian side here..

Posted by: james | Feb 18, 2018 9:09:31 PM | 69

@69 I think the SAA is asking the Kurdish militants to take up their duties as Syrian citizens and forget about Rojava. It will be a tough decision. Also it's hard to know how serious Erdogan is about Afrin. He doesn't seem to want to go all in but he may settle for a diminished PKK.

Posted by: dh | Feb 18, 2018 9:16:53 PM | 70

@70 dh... we'll see how it unfolds... there are a lot of angles to consider....

@ 64 confused pundit.. further to my comments, i note this data on the turkish military operation - olive branch...

this is how whacked out it is in turkey at present...

"Media restrictions and arrests in Turkey

Turkish government ministers ordered the Turkish press to follow a 15-point list of "expectations" for reporting on the conflict, which included not mentioning attacks on civilians or protests against the operation, relying on Turkish government statements and ignoring statements by "domestic arms of the PKK", which include the Peoples' Democratic Party (HDP), ignoring any protests against the Afrin operation, and keeping in mind "national interest" and "patriotic journalism".[71] Journalists were admonished not to "report news that boosts the morale of the PKK/PYD".[182][183] Reporters without Borders notes that the goal of these directives is to essentially "put the Turkish media at the service of the government and its war goals."[71] On 21 January Erdoğan warned that anyone in Turkey protesting against the operation would pay a "heavy price."[67][184] Erdoğan then added: "Know that wherever you go out on the streets our security forces are on your necks."[185]

As of 23 January 2018, at least 24 journalists writing columns against the operation have been arrested in Turkey.[70] In addition to the arrest of journalists, hundreds of known arrests occurred of social media users who criticized the operation. The Anadolu Chief Public Prosecutor's Office said that the posts were violations of the following crimes proscribed by articles of the Turkish Penal Code, including Article 301, which prohibit insulting public officials or the president, degrading the Turkish nation, and spreading terrorist propaganda.[70][71]

During a news segment on Turkish Radio and Television Corporation (TRT), a newscaster is now being investigated by TRT's news division after she stated on air that civilians died due to Turkish bombardment. The news division stated: "After this sad mistake, our speaker has immediately been withdrawn from the air, and a new friend was assigned to replace her. Also, an investigation has been launched against our speaker."[186]

After the Turkish Medical Association stated that "every clash, every war, causes physical, psychological, social and environmental health problems and causes human tragedy", they were issued arrest warrants against 11 board members of the Turkish Medical Association for spreading terrorist propaganda.[187]

Turkish authorities have arrested numerous leaders and high-ranking members of pro-Kurdish and left-wing political parties.[72] On 6 February 2018, Mehmet Arslan, co-leader of the Democratic Regions Party, has been arrested for criticizing the operation.[188] Days later, more have been arrested which include Onur Hamzaoğlu, a spokesman for the Peoples' Democratic Congress (HDK), Musa Piroğlu, chairman of the Revolutionary Party, Naci Sönmez and Eylem Tunceli, Co-Chairs of the Green Left Party (YSGP), Fadime Çelebi, Deputy Chair of the Socialist Party of the Oppressed, Kezban Konukçu, spokeswoman for the Socialist Solidarity Party, and Ahmet Kaya, co-chair of the Socialist Refoundation Party (SYKP).[189]

Turkey has detained nearly 600 people for social media posts and protesters who opposed the offensive.[190] Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu, the Foreign Minister of Turkey, called those who criticize the operation as being nothing but "Marxists, communists, and atheists" who are no different than the YPG.[191]"

Posted by: james | Feb 18, 2018 10:12:01 PM | 71

let me repeat a part of that for greater effect...

"After the Turkish Medical Association stated that "every clash, every war, causes physical, psychological, social and environmental health problems and causes human tragedy", they were issued arrest warrants against 11 board members of the Turkish Medical Association for spreading terrorist propaganda."

Posted by: james | Feb 18, 2018 10:14:57 PM | 72

IMO CP is a Turkish nationalist and Erdogan apologist. He employs the powerful device of framing. As bad as Erdogan may be, CP insists that Erdogan is the lesser-evil.

Notably, CP doesn’t envision, let alone advocate, for a peaceful, democratic Turkey. He just tries to impress upon us Erdogan’s righteousness - which CP insists is reflected by full support of the Turkish people.

CP’s determined ambiguity leads to LOL moments like when he said that he doesn’t support Erdogan but would defend him against any criticism from outside Turkey.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 18, 2018 11:24:04 PM | 73

Erdogan failed to take Afrin as I said he would.

Turkey and USA have restored ties as I said they would (with somber theatrics to make it appear that a real breach was averted).

So why did Turkey attack Afrin a few weeks before Sochi? And why’d CP show up at MoA just as the Afrin gambit fiasco was getting started?

It has become a fiasco hasn’t it? Now that SAA is about to enter Afrin. Almost certainly with Russia’s blessing. Has another dead Russian airman opened Putin’s eyes?

Media coverage of the Tillerson-Cavusoglu press conference was funny. Instant analysis was: no breakthrough/no resolution even as The Foreign Ministers we’re saying that they have restored ties, are continuing talks, and agree on what the outcome of Syria should be (Tillerson said that there was “no light between” Turkey and USA in that regard.

The fact is US and Turkey need each other if they are going to realize their goals in Syria. Turkey needs the ‘super power veto’ if it is going to hold onto the Syrian territory that it and its proxies now hold. And US needs Turk support.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 19, 2018 2:24:38 AM | 74

Jackrabbit 74
CP appears on a thread to defend Turkey/Erdogan which is not an issue to me, but then makes out he has no skin in the game - an academic abstractly discussing politics type thing. Genuine opinions can be argued against and respected, but once somebody starts bullshitting? Nothing can be believed.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 19, 2018 2:45:45 AM | 75

Dear Jackrabbit | Feb 18, 2018 11:24:04 PM | 73

I doubt you know what you are talking about.

1) For you the 100% CIA organized coup attempt in Turkey is 'sham'
2) I am a 'nationalist' an ' Erdogan apologist'
3) I don't envision, let alone advocate, for a peaceful, democratic Turkey.


1) Ask the CIA about it. You are either a victim to their diversion efforts or you work for them.
15 July 2016 is a (failed!) CIA coup attempt in Turkey. A failed one just like the failed Operation Eagle Claw, Tehran US embassy raid and the failed Bay of Pigs invasion. OK? How can we trust your judgement if you refer to the Turkish one as 'sham'??

2) I pay tax and I have a Turkish ID. Yes I am, if that makes me a 'nationalist'.
An Erdogan apologist in what way? Because I don't think it's a fake coup attempt? Well, it isn't. Because I think Erdogan is an angel compared to the 'other guys'? Well, he is. They are 'facts'. Me telling you it's now 11:30 doesn't make me a Rolex Apologist.

3) Turkey is a democratic country, more so especially after Erdogan came to power.

"Democracy in modern usage, is a system of government in which the citizens exercise power directly or elect representatives from among themselves to form a governing body, such as a parliament."

If you want more democracy in Turkey then give me a benchmark. USA? Truman Show. Germany? Die Truman Show.

C'mon, I dare you, give me an example. We'll compare the two countries.

"He employs the powerful device of framing" LOL. Peter calls me a "top and cyber warrior serving up high class disinformation." God bless you guys, you are really funny. I'm just an ordinary chap. I think you just can't stand that I am right.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 19, 2018 3:28:46 AM | 76

ConfusedPundit 76
Much better. Put your opinions straight and don't bullshit. Genuine opinions can be respected.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 19, 2018 3:36:50 AM | 77

According to German media YPG agreed to let the Syrian army protect Afrin.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 19, 2018 3:40:40 AM | 78

add to 78 Here is the Kurdish source.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 19, 2018 3:42:51 AM | 79

Dear james | Feb 18, 2018 10:14:57 PM | 72

I have read the gray/black propaganda material targeting Turkey inluded in your post.

What would you like me to say about it?

Shall we discuss the Pre-Charge Detention rules for Terrorist Suspects and counter-terrorism bills in the EU? But let's do it after you spot the 'gray/black proganda' in your post.

Meanwhile I warm up.

You can be jailed for 5 years if you say 'I love you IRA' in the UK.


Five Germans charged for operating neo-Nazi website.

David Duke Arrested In Germany


James, this is not a pot calling the cat black case.

It's the pot and the black cat ganging up on the Turkish white dove.

Long live free Corsica! IRA rules the waves! Baader-Meinhof uber alles!

Catalonia Libre!

And now time for a Cuba Libre!

(BTW, 'Turkish Medical Association' favors exlusion of the words 'Turk' or 'Turkish' in the constitution, they should get rid of theirs from the title. It's not a national association. They only represent a small minority: the PKK)

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 19, 2018 5:10:14 AM | 80

It's not the SAA

It's Hezbollah, Quds, Shabiha, Fatmiyun Brigade

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 19, 2018 5:18:04 AM | 81

Canada has been involved in all of the US's recent illegal wars and is heavily involved with Ukrianian Nazis. It recently passed a law that made it a criminal offence not to use the supposedly "Correct gender pro-noun" when addressing a bloke in a dress.

Both the US and Canada have been involved fomenting and prosecuting several illegal wars over the last nearly 20 years.

It is rather hilarious that the allegedly Canadian "James" and the obviously US "Jackrabbit" feel they have some sort of moral high-ground from which to lecture someone from Turkey.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

when you, James and Jackrabbit, have managed to halt the illegal wars the US and Canada are involved in, and successfully prosecute the likes of Bush 2, Obama etc, then maybe you can start lecturing others on conditions in their own country with out being laughed at as a pair of astounding hypocrites

Posted by: Bobby Mueller | Feb 19, 2018 7:03:24 AM | 82

Same goes for Germans lecturing Turkey.

Germany has been involved in the bombing and destruction of Yugoslavia and is currently involved in the NATO occupation and destruction of Afghanistan.

You guys provide Israel with nuke-capable subs, at massive discounts, which are covered by the German taxpayer.

From where did you ever get the notion that you could ever have some sort of moral high ground from which to lecture anyone else on the state of their nation?

Posted by: Bobby Mueller | Feb 19, 2018 7:08:03 AM | 83

Bobby Mueller

James has been critical of Canada and I have been critical of US. Each of us, along with others at MoA, have complained of foreign policy abuses of our home countries and pointed to undemocratic neoliberal governance practices that allow elite malfeasance. Thus, your attempt to embarrass us into silence falls flat.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 19, 2018 9:30:29 AM | 84

Confused Pundit

Tell us about the time when Erdogan and Gulen were good friends and working together.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 19, 2018 9:41:30 AM | 85

@ Jackrabbit, 84,
You are both citizens of countries that have done, and continue to do, far far worse things than Erdogan/Turkey has done

In light of that, your attempts at criticism look more than a little hollow.

Posted by: Bobby Mueller | Feb 19, 2018 10:55:03 AM | 86

Bobby Mueller

You were apparently unaware of positions that James and I have both repeatedly stated. And you have no idea how we each might put our beliefs in practice off-line.

I doubt that you’ve even been following the discussion with CP that has occurred over the last several weeks. I think you’re just knee-jerking.

You ask that we refrain from critical comments about other countries on an blog devoted to international relations because . . . guilt by association? LOL!

In case you forgot, Turkey is a NATO country and NATO is led by USA. Furthermore, Erdogan has a reputation for power-seeking and has become a virtual dictator - the apparent coup attempt strengthened his hold on Turkey while better allowing US to cozy up to the Kurds after the distancing from Turkey (how convenient). The question of which side Edogan favors in the struggle for Syria has been an open question since the apparent coup attempt. Initially, most at MoA thought Turkey was moving into the R+6 camp (or soon would). Instead Turkey has stayed in a middle ground.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 19, 2018 12:04:23 PM | 87

ConfusedPundit 81

Well that didn't take mach to remove the false facade and expose the crap underneath. You will have to get better at your job. Philosopher abstractly discussing politics..? You will have to think up a better cover than that next time.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 19, 2018 12:10:03 PM | 88

Dear Jackrabbit | Feb 19, 2018 9:41:30 AM | 85

Let's presume (in great difficulty) you are asking a serious question.

Chronologically speaking,

1) Before his rise to power and during his tenure Erdogan and Gulen were not friends. The grassroots have never been friends either. They will not be friends in the future either.

2) But Erdogan and Gulen were friends for a period of time? No, it was politics. He had to get on well with him, Turkey is a colony, you stick your head out, it gets hammered down. Erdogan is the Turkish JFK. Is this too difficult for you to understand? Erdogan was a 10 year old naked Steve Biko in the middle of a KKK ritual. He was powerless, back then. Conjecture? Does that make any sense to you?

3) Gulen had already total control of the judiciary and the police force. Gulen was everywhere. Media, business, army, he even set up 13 Alevi guilds which were denounced after the coup by the Cem Vakfi, the real rep of Alevis in Turkey. He wanted 70 seats in the parliament but he didn't get it, he wanted the MIT, he didn't get it. He got furious, he had a palace being built, he was about to return to the country like Khomeini did in Iran but things went wrong. Erdogan, Kemalists, Deep State, outside forces, Russians, Geronimo, Pancho Villa, Lady Gaga, I don't know exactly who but some people were not happy with the idea of Gulen controlling the whole country. So E & G broke up, or rather, Turkey became a giant Hadron Collider making the Swiss one look like a plastic citrus juicer.

Gulen is still in America. You'll have to extradite him or keep him there forever. We all know what America did 2 summers ago.

4) But Erdogan and Gulen were friends! Well, Jack the Rabbit, that is the only argument the opposition comes up with all the time. Ironically, the opposition leader was brought to power with Gulen's help.

5) Jack, you want the oil? You can ask for it, I'm more than happy to share it with you. The Ro-Ro Brothers in the US+EU want the oil? Over my dead body. You want a piece of land here? Be my guest. The Ro-Ro Brothers want some? Over my dead body. It's a very thin line and you will trip over it if you don't pay heed to my index finger pointing at it.

You can serve them guys forever but the Turkish people here are unruly and they prefer not to. There are kids getting massacred in the US, let's stop that. There is this GMO food problem, let's stop that. Financial troubles in Greece? Let's all help them. There is a war in Syria? Let's stop it asap.

French teen guilty of 'terrorism' after naming his Wi-Fi 'Daesh 21' LOL. Do as you wish.

But Erdogan jails Intel Personnel disguised as 'Journalists', he jails politicians who transport 'weapons' to 'freedom fighters'. So please give me a break. Everybody knows what's going on. The German soldiers don't know what's going on. They complain that they didn't get a plane from Mali or something to Germany but the TR-German 'journalist' Deniz Yucel flew back to Germany with a private jet brought in from Germany. How about that?

If you are genuinely interested in the situation here, I can share my views with you. You remain in partial darkness without me because every single article at your side before the coup attempt was talking rubbish. Just flick through the old papers. Similarly, @74 you said a few things, and tell us what happened only 1 hour after your post? The Turks have taken 10 more villages in Afrin? Cheers.

Posted by: ConfusedPundit | Feb 19, 2018 1:25:21 PM | 89

81 "It's Hezbollah, Quds, Shabiha, Fatmiyun Brigade"

It seems any and all that do not share your hero worship of Erdo are PKK/Gulenist/CIA/Shia. All enemies of the good, Sunni, Erdogan worshipping Turkish people.
You lied and tried to hold onto a pretense for your motives in posting here, and in your recent posts, since the facade has been stripped away, you are either lying again or a total nutter that actually believes that shit.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 19, 2018 3:05:16 PM | 90

@ Bobby Mueller.. i kind of knew you were an idiot, but your posts here to me and jr prove it fully.. thanks for that... now - forget about talking with me directly, as i definitely will not waste my time with you...

and for the record - the shit my country canada is doing and continues to do is something i am in total disagreement with... as for the conversation i continue to have with confused pundit - if you had anything relevant to say on the matter you would have by now... obviously all you are good for is cheap shit like attacking others engaged in a conversation... i don't give a shit what country you are from either.. fuck off..

Posted by: james | Feb 19, 2018 4:44:54 PM | 91

@80 confused pundit... my main problem with erdogan at this point is his siding with isis and it's variations in syria - al nusra and etc - to try to topple assad... and, he continues to rant about how assad is an murderous dictator...

i don't question a lot of the hypocritical shit that is going on in europe, uk, the usa and canada for that matter... it is true with all of what you say in that regard, as i understand it..

but - as with the title of this thread and staying on topic somewhat - what is turkeys role here? i see it as an ongoing attempt to destabilize syria.. you think erdogan is clean.. i don't! i give examples and the response you can give me is they are kurd supporters or gulen network / cia folks..

so erdogan has 2 punching bags he can kick regularly to his fans - gulen /cia network and kurds... i guess that is one way to stir up turkish nationalism and to make the turks feel proud.. i don't think it bodes well for turkey as i continue to say... but - you see it differently.. fair enough!

Posted by: james | Feb 19, 2018 5:02:10 PM | 92

Confusing Pundit

Here is a better description of the Edogan-Gulen relationship: Erdogan And Gulen Are Both Islamists And Were Once Allies. Why Did They Fall Out?

Note this part:

Erdogan had to make the commitment [in 2004 to fight Gulen, and] . . . Two sides actually joined against one common enemy, but the allies were Erdogan and Gulen, not Erdogan and the army. . . . Gulen-Erdogan collaboration continued in the same style along 2000’s. Major AKP figures were going to the US to visit Gulen . . . It’s summit was the Ergenekon operation . . . Hundreds of people, mostly military were accused of being members of a terror organization, planning a coup against government . . .
The “Ergenekon Operation” sounds very much like the July 2016 apparent coup attempt. It’s practically a dress-rehearsal.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 19, 2018 5:35:47 PM | 93

@ Bobby Mueller.. i kind of knew you were an idiot

Posted by: james | Feb 19, 2018 4:44:54 PM | 91

I'm sure one could fill books and books with all the things james likes to think he knows.

All I see are two westerners from North America as usual hypocritically lecturing others on the state of their countries.

The world would surely be a much better place if North Americans of all types just did the world a favour by deciding to stfu, stop lecturing others on what goes on in their country, and mind their own business a bit more. Fix your own house first, before you start moralising to others.

I'm sure places like Turkey would much prefer it if North Americans just learned to F off and stop sticking their big fat noses into the affairs of far off distant lands.

Naturally you'll ignore such sentiment, after all, goddammit, you are North Americans, and sticking your big fat noses into the affairs of other nations, and hypocritically moralising, is something people like you think you have some sort of god-given right to do.

Posted by: Bobby Mueller | Feb 19, 2018 6:35:46 PM | 94

The “Ergenekon Operation” sounds very much like the July 2016 apparent coup attempt. It’s practically a dress-rehearsal.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 19, 2018 5:35:47 PM | 93

The “Ergenekon Operation” sounds exactly like the sort of illegal stay-behind terrorist operations, usually financed by drug-running and other forms of cash-rich illegality (Gladio etc), which North Americans and their NATO people have set up every where they go.

Literally anywhere you find a NATO base you will find some sort of stay-behind operation. Why would Turkey be any different?

Being moralistically lectured about it by a North American must be hilarious for any Turkish person on the receiving end.

I mean its not like the Turks were the ones who invented it.

That was you guys

Posted by: Bobby Mueller | Feb 19, 2018 6:43:00 PM | 95

From Wikipedia

"The first person to publicly talk about the organization was retired naval officer Erol Mütercimler, who spoke of such an organization in 1997.[13]

[14]Mütercimler said he heard of the original organization's existence from retired general Memduh Ünlütürk, who was involved in the anti-communistZiverbey interrogations following the1971 coup.[15] 

Major general Ünlütürk told Mütercimler that Ergenekon was founded with the support of the CIA andthe Pentagon.

[16] Mütercimler was detained during the Ergenekon investigation for questioning before being released

[13]Mütercimler and others, however, draw a distinction between the Ergenekon of today and the original one, which they equate with the Counter-Guerrilla;Operation Gladio's Turkish branch.[17]
Today's Ergenekon is said to be a "splinter" off the old one."

Yep, sounds about right. A terrorist organisation run by rogue military, in connivance with the CIA and US mil.

Pretty much exactly what NATO did in every other country where they setup shop.

Once again: why would one expect things to be any different in Turkey?

Posted by: Bobby Mueller | Feb 19, 2018 7:05:10 PM | 96

From Wikipedia

"The first person to publicly talk about the organization was retired naval officer Erol Mütercimler, who spoke of such an organization in 1997.[13]

[14]Mütercimler said he heard of the original organization's existence from retired general Memduh Ünlütürk, who was involved in the anti-communistZiverbey interrogations following the1971 coup.[15] 

Major general Ünlütürk told Mütercimler that Ergenekon was founded with the support of the CIA andthe Pentagon.

[16] Mütercimler was detained during the Ergenekon investigation for questioning before being released

[13]Mütercimler and others, however, draw a distinction between the Ergenekon of today and the original one, which they equate with the Counter-Guerrilla;Operation Gladio's Turkish branch.[17]
Today's Ergenekon is said to be a "splinter" off the old one."

Yep, sounds about right. A terrorist organisation run by rogue military, in connivance with the CIA and US mil.

Pretty much exactly what NATO did in every other country where they setup shop.

Once again: why would one expect things to be any different in Turkey?

Posted by: Bobby Mueller | Feb 19, 2018 7:05:30 PM | 97

James 63 "@peter au.. i lean towards confused pundit being unintentionally ignorant while steeped in a mild type of erdogan worship.. this is why i continue to talk with him!"

Have spent the day tossing that around. Went back to the initial threads where CP commented as it was towards the end of the second thread I started wondering who he was, who he represented. The insistence he was just an ordinary guy bring information and so forth.
Going through the posts, he is very well informed on various groups/factions and so forth in Turkey. Says he had links to AKP thinktanks - most likely still has them. Was close friends with a lawyer for AQ.

And this bit... "BTW, I also spent a lot of time with the Ergenekon people who were jailed by the Gulenists with Erdogan's help. I attended their meetings because I was invited by my friends. Virtually every person in the last meeting got arrested. Army intel guys, Kemalists, ex officers they all went to jail."

Not just an ordinary guy by any means. Going by the last - sounds like his job is to infiltrate anywhere targeted by AKP/Erdogan.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Feb 19, 2018 7:16:50 PM | 98

Bobby Mueller

Well, your hate for North Americans has blinded you to evidence that suggests that Ergenekon was simply a witch hunt meant to sideline powerful opponents of an Islamist Turkey. It seems that secular military leaders were primary targets.

Did you even read the Quora link I provided? Erdogan and Gulen led the charge against the secularists.

Although hundreds were arrested and charged, there was much secrecy surrounding the judicial process (some judges were said to be Gulenists) and most were ultimately released due to lack of evidence.

IMO The real possibility that Ergenekon was staged to round-up opponents adds to suspicions about the July 2016 coup.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 19, 2018 8:42:30 PM | 99

@97 peter... here is my take.. i am always open to many ideas and others generally.. i am going to quote david h, from sst here for a moment as i think it applies.. "In the nature of things, a pattern of evidence which can be interpreted as indicating that someone is trying to deceive you may be equally compatible with the hypothesis that they are telling the truth.

What is then necessary is to formulate alternative hypotheses clearly, and look for means of testing them against each other. A reasonably sure route to sooner or later making catastrophic errors is to commit oneself to one interpretation and interpret ambiguous evidence so as to validate it."

the way i see it, confused pundit lives in turkey which explains his knowledge on turkey here... also - he is bilingual, or more, which always commands a level of respect from me as it shows the ability to transcend the bounds of one's culture and heritage on some important level.. i think confused pundit is honest and sincere in his comments.. that is what i get from him.. i think he is receptive and caught up in the zeitgeist of the moment in turkey which in large part admire what erdogan is doing.. there is no question erdogan is a strong political figure.. he has the political instincts to remain in power and solidify his base for a number of reasons, not just the fact he uses the gulen /cia network and kurds as his regular punching bag...

i continue to enjoy confused pundits involvement here and think he brings a different perspective to the conversation.. i would like to emphasize this last word - conversation... if i sense someone is hostile to the idea of an exchange of ideas, i view them very differently as you will note!

does cp have an agenda of putting a positive spin on erdogan? maybe, but he is not finding any takers on this thread or board!! cheers - james

Posted by: james | Feb 19, 2018 10:00:51 PM | 100

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