Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 15, 2017

The Non-Coup Coup In Zimbabwe

Yesterday's coup in Zimbabwe is of global interest. The country is one of the few that have long resisted the colonial "western" attempts to control its mineral and agricultural riches. Such coups are often driven by the CIA or other "services". But there is no evidence yet that this is the case here. Local rivalry is for now the more plausible explanation.

Since 1980, when Zimbabwe gained independence from Britain, the country is ruled by Robert Mugabe. He has run an anti-colonial and socialist policy. Unfortunately his economic policies, together with "western" sanctions and currency manipulations, have devastated the country's economy. In 2000 Mugabe ousted some 4,000 white farmers who had owned and ran large estates. In a sweeping land reform the farms were split into plots and redistributed to local people. Agricultural productivity tanked and has since not fully recovered. A deep economic crisis with high unemployment ensued.

Mugabe is now 93 years old and apparently frail. There has long been infighting over his succession. Mugabe's wife "Gucci" Grace Mugabe and her children are well known for being exceptional corrupt and prodigal when it comes to their personal amenities. On November 5 Grace Mugabe asked her husband to be named as his successor.

On November 6 then Vice President Emmerson Mnangagwa, a 73-year-old lawyer and veteran of the liberation wars, was ousted after a conflict with Grace Mugabe. Mnangagwa allegedly planned [long backgrounder] to form a unity government with the opposition and to bring back some of the white farmers. It is claimed that he has British backing but that the U.S. and the EU oppose him.

The ruling Zimbabwe African National Union-Patriotic Front (ZANU-PF) party is split in its loyalties to these two persons. The G40 "youth-wing" is following Grace Mugabe while the old guards of the party despise her.

Yesterday the military moved into the capital Harare. At 4am this morning Major-General Sibusiso Moyo appeared on TV and announced that it has taken control. It denies that coup has taken place. In a statement the military "guaranteed" Mugabe's safety and said that it was only targeting "criminals" around him. Mugabe and his family have been put under house arrest. There has been so far no fighting and no visible public opposition to the "non-coup coup". Traffic and life in the capitol appears to be normal (vid).

According to the African editor of the partly Soros funded IRINnews:

Obi Anyadike @Enugu62 5:02 AM - 15 Nov 2017

This is all to do with stopping Grace Mugabe from taking over. The assumption is the military will keep Robert Mugabe on ice. Purge those around him. Bring back ex-VP Emmerson Mnangagwa from South Africa. And have him anointed at the ZANU-PF congress in December.

Your host has not followed the developments in Zimbabwe diligently enough to reliably predict the consequences of this development. Please use the comments to add your knowledge to the above wrap-up.

Posted by b on November 15, 2017 at 04:52 AM | Permalink

Comments

Pretty good analysis, just to add a few. ZANU-PF had have to split for few months, Emmerson's Sacking was catalyst. He is backed by old guard in Army. So, pretty much Army has thrown it's weight in his camp. ZANU-PF tweet is very instructive. @vic26c

Posted by: Hyder | Nov 15, 2017 5:14:01 AM | 1

Mugabe may have resisted foreign control but he threw a lot of babies out with the bathwater and led the place to disaster. When your enemy makes mistakes and you point it out it isn't a lie or propaganda, it's taunting.

Posted by: Altai | Nov 15, 2017 5:25:52 AM | 2

The situation is still fluid, but I doubt if Robert Mugabe would be back in power. I think what is going on now is a negotiation of terms of his exit. His Grace (wife) has brought him into a final disgrace.

Posted by: Steve | Nov 15, 2017 5:37:10 AM | 3


Exclusive: Mugabe hails China as 'greatest friend' CCTV.com
12-01-2015 15:51 BJT

Full coverage: Xi Attends Paris Climate Talks, Visits Zimbabwe, S. Africa

http://english.cntv.cn/2015/12/01/VIDE1448956204453197.shtml

Posted by: OJS | Nov 15, 2017 5:59:47 AM | 4

Good to see that the host has a percipient view of Z. Africom is entrenching like a like a blight. The USA has never been entirely content with the southern/central situation there, even with Mandela and his two weak successors in their pocket. The deeply popular RM developed into the largest thorn in their side in this region.

Posted by: Petra | Nov 15, 2017 7:58:17 AM | 5

Bring back Rhodesia

Posted by: Lemur | Nov 15, 2017 8:01:19 AM | 6

A lot has changed since RM distributed the land to small farmers. Corporate farming and hosing the land with toxic chemicals is the new norm...Monsanto Style. 'Reengaging with the international community' is a neoliberal wet dream. The destruction starts with the two billion dollar loan pushed by the Brits ending with multinational hedge funds owning Zimbabwe.

Posted by: ger | Nov 15, 2017 8:29:47 AM | 7

Zimbabwe is proof that Anti-Colonialism is not a cure all and cannot be elevated to a theory or a moral principal. The question is not whether the colonial power should be replaced or not. The question is what comes next and who benefits and is murder truly worth it to produce the change. The history of 20th century anti colonialism is the history of the rationalization of murder for a utopia that never comes. We have a different world because of anti-colonialism but it is a hard to say we have a better one. It's a case by case situation.
It is a sad comment that Ian Smith is still the best Prime Minister Zimbabwe ever had.
Good luck to the people of Zimbabwe on their transition to a better tomorrow now that the Mugabe family is receiving their comeuppance.

Posted by: Northern Observer | Nov 15, 2017 8:42:10 AM | 8

I have mixed feelings about this. Ironic that last week the 100 years since the Bolshevik (counter) revolution and Africa was the continent where Marxism took root.

I’m old enough to remember first hand the fight of African countries against colonialism and the patchy outcome across Africa as many of these nations never truly were “free”

I feel quite depressed looking at the liberation movements hat turned into dictatorships.

Zimbabwe is landlocked so whatever happened there affects there neighbours - the EU the USA and the UK will be able to gain access now that Mugabe has gone.

Life probably won’t get better for the people but western companies will get rich

Posted by: James lake | Nov 15, 2017 8:43:23 AM | 9

Simple reason for the coup is that Mugabe has only a few days to live.

military has probably always been in control of Zimbabwe (one way or another)

Mugabe's rule (or misrule) was probably as a kind of figure-head who acts as if he is able to unite the country behind his persona.
(in a similar way to Colonel Gadhaffi, Mandela, Mobutu etc and others).

naturally, if and when he dies, there will be some sort of a power struggle.

8.Northern Observer is probably right.
they could have just left Ian Smith on as Prime Minister.

Military attitude is that it best to make any move they had planned beforehand (ie past 20 years) now.

Posted by: chris m | Nov 15, 2017 9:11:07 AM | 10

PS Mugabe was always too smart for his or his own countries good (6 University degrees).

power gets to their heads in the same way as alcohol does.

Posted by: chris m | Nov 15, 2017 9:15:58 AM | 11

Well, Western agencies and countries might not be directly involved here, but I wouldn't rule out some South African interference.
Other than that, I'm not knwoledgeable enough to comment seriously on what's going on, so I'll sit here trying to grasp that and gather the few information we can get.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Nov 15, 2017 10:48:27 AM | 12

I read the military's statement at Fort Russ, wondering if b would write something regarding the situation. I found the entire statement positive; then I read: "European Union External Action Service spokesperson Catherine Ray stated that recent events in Zimbabwe are 'a matter of concern' for the European Union at a press briefing in Brussels on Wednesday;" then went on to say that "all parties" need "to move from confrontation to dialogue with the aim of a peaceful resolution." http://www.fort-russ.com/2017/11/watch-european-union-says-events-in.html

But if there's no violence, why use "confrontation" and say a "peaceful resolution" is required, or is such language being used to set the table for a R2P type of intervention?

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 15, 2017 10:55:42 AM | 13

Hmmm...wouldn't be the first time something like this happened.

http://www.theeventchronicle.com/finanace/gold-reserves-back-zimbabwe-currency/

Posted by: Paul | Nov 15, 2017 12:08:44 PM | 14

As a kid I resigned my commission in the UK army out of disgust at the way Rhodesia was being treated by the UK govt. I made my way to Rhodesia and was an infantry officer in the Rhodesian Army. Quite a few yanks, Aussies and Brits joined us. I met Ian Smith a few times, never liked him, he was distant and arrogant on a personal level. I had a lot of farmers as friends. I married and am still married to a Rhodesian girl. Her father was a judge. I see things differently now. One wonders how we ever thought we could get away with our semi-benign paternal rule. Perhaps had the USSR collapsed twenty years earlier (they backed Nkomo)nwe could have had the wiggle room to sort ourselves out, but then, Mugabe was Chinese backed, so perhaps it wouldn't have mattered. I lost nearly all my army friends. The pendulum is starting to swing back, perhaps. Good luck to them all.

Posted by: Guy Thornton | Nov 15, 2017 1:56:53 PM | 15

Don't know enough about the power dynamics. However with Gaddafi gone and the USA in, Africa is only going to get nastier and Europe, oh Europe. B you'll be getting some new neighbors over in Deutschland!

Posted by: Fernando Arauxo | Nov 15, 2017 2:07:26 PM | 16

thanks b...

@7 ger.. that sounds about right.. they have been updated with the treatment that's been tried and true in the west.. poison the land and make sure it is dependent on western finance holocaust style thinking...

Posted by: james | Nov 15, 2017 2:52:57 PM | 17

clear as water.

i´ts all the fault of Putin!

Posted by: F.MAN | Nov 15, 2017 3:00:47 PM | 18

i personally like BAR for their africa analysis:

https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=site%3Ablackagendareport.com+zimbabwe

mostly i remember the hyperinflation complete with wheelbarrows full of cash, the white farmer events and some violence in the surrounding area involving south africa. vague at best but this is a good reason to read up i suppose.

Posted by: the pair | Nov 15, 2017 3:04:26 PM | 19

Zimbabwe isn't ruled by a monarch nor some dictator like presstitute media try to make it sound. Zimbabwe ruled by president Robert Mugabe was just like Libya, Sudan and Eritrea resisting the US colonial AFRICOM and other nefarious forms of neo colonization.

President Robert Mugabe was one of the liberation leaders who fought during the war for independence. The first 2 decades after independence he was a favored ruler by Great Britain because he hardly touched the existing power dynamics in the country. The 4k settler farmers who made up less than 1% of the population owned more than 70% af the arable land. After 20 years of farmers dragging their feet when requested to return the stolen land, they were forced to which earned Mugaba the full wrath by ex colonizer Great Britain but also the US and EU.

Great Britain went to great lengths to topple Mugabe and dismantle ZANU-PF resorting to economic warfare similar to what Venezuela has been enduring since Chavez was elected. Great Britain and the presstitute media also resorted and still execute a massive propaganda campaign where it's next to impossible to find a shred of truth in presstitute media about Zimbabwe, again similar to Venezuela but also Libya, North Korea, and so many other countries that are ruled by governments where the US, UK, EU or other Atlanticist countries have no or hardly any control over.

It's only because in 2000, South Africa refused any military operation that Zimbabwe wasn't attacked militarily, style Somalia-Afghanistan-Yugoslavia-... - you finish the list. ZANU-PF resisted all the 'soft power' attacks and Robert Mugabe has been reelected as a president ever since. The next election was due to take place in 2018 next year. In all those years the now aging Mugabe has always been democratically elected so the story that he was pushing Grace Mugabe to succeed him is bullshit. If she were to succeed him, it would have been done through democratic election like the previous elections since 1980.

The same scenario unfolded itself in Mali against president Amadou Toumani Touré in 2012. Elections are due but the ex-colonizer sees an opportunity to install their own puppet ruler. In Mali president Touré was removed from power by army man Amadou Sanogo only a few months before the next elections were to be held. After Sanogo's usefulness had expired (less than a month) he was discarded like a used condom (he's in jail) in a similar way like military man Ibrahim Coulibaly (also less than a month and died by gunshot) from Ivory Coast that eventually brought Ouattara to power. In Zimbabwe that role is currently assumed by SB Moyo. Let's wait and see how long it takes before Moyo's expiry date passes.

Posted by: xor | Nov 15, 2017 3:04:40 PM | 20

Thanks for this post, b.

I spent a couple of months in 1993 traveling far and wide throughout Zimbabwe. At that time the economy was still going strong, Zimbabwe was exporting grain to neighboring countries, the future looked really bright.

One of the effects of the international sanctions and trade embargoes during the latter days of Rhodesia was that the country developed a certain amount of economic independence and proficiency in manufacturing and growing to address its needs. This economic vibrancy continued well into the independence years.

Mugabe's subsequent land reform efforts appeared to catastrophically fail (assuming the goal was to maintain or improve agricultural productivity), and evidently the Western powers that be wanted to punish Mugabe's government for not being more accommodating. The consequences for the people of Zimbabwe, black, white or otherwise, were tragic.

As some of the previous commenters have noted, the usual suspects may now rush in and impose the "benefits" of western-style finance, security and business practices. What a tragedy compounded if that happens. But it is hard to see how new leadership will be able to resist it.

Posted by: Maxcrat | Nov 15, 2017 3:13:56 PM | 21

@15 Guy Thornton

Have you written about your experiences anywhere?

Posted by: Pespi | Nov 15, 2017 3:18:42 PM | 22

I've read some tosh in these pages over the years but the jaapie asshole who claims that racist murderer Ian Smith was "Zimbabwe's best Prime Minister" takes the cake especially since Smith was never PM of Zimbabwe he was a petty tyrant who illegally and undemocratically seized power in a tinpot colonial territory called Rhodesia, named after that well known social justice & equity campaigner Cecil Rhodes.

The specious claim that Zimbabwe 'has been unsuccessful' just because the leadership rated a return to traditional culture and practices ahead of 'making a dollar' really doubles down on the ignorant stupidity of these comments.

Of course once the land was returned to traditional owners western style efficiency would drop - no one expected otherwise.

In case you've all forgotten revolution isn't 'done and dusted' (as englanders say) the moment control is taken from the oppressor. That is the beginning of the revolution not the end, and for Zimbabwe a nation state whose border was the result of a gang of greedy fat englander pigs sitting around a table in London slurping port and scratching lines on a map, there were always going to be many challenges.
The agricultural sector is returning to productivity despite the hissy fit one imperialist arsehole by the name of Tony Blair threw when the people of Zimbabwe rejected his 'offer' to make Zimbabwe the mug supplier of cheap food to england in return for a few extra pieces of silver each year. Blair unilaterally cancelled payment of the reparations UK had agreed to when Zimbabwe finally took its independence.
England chose to turn to eastern Europe as the mug supplier of cheap food "let us grab our vittles and you can clear the shit from our drains in return" was Blair's kind offer to eastern europe.

That didn't work out so well the food prices didn't stay low and little englanders didn't enjoy letting 'wogs' into their homes to fix their own messes up ("at least most of 'the asians' know their place eh chav") next stop Brexit.

This is why the people of Zimbabwe have to be extremely careful right now.
England is about to get into a major food shortage - well affordable food, once they leave the EU. Food prices are already shooting up since the pound has been dropping value and once brexit happens which will take away guaranteed access to price fixed tucker at the same time as the pound plummets, Zimbabwe plus a few of the other nations which can produce far more food than they consume, are likely to be prime targets for englander meddling.
The fact that england has broken with both amerika and the EU on this shows that the greedy tory poms are already thinking along those lines.
Expect much more agent of influence and agent provocateur trouble making from Brit intelligence among the relatively small community of metro Zimbabwean bourgeoisie coagulated in Harare. Further stirring will be among the foreign africans ex-agricultural workers which the Smith regime dragged into the region when traditional owners refused to be slaves working their own land for a whitefella slug in the years before Zanu-PF victory.

Mugabe hung on so long because megalomania convinced him that no one else could be trusted to resist the myriad ways which foreigners would use to bugger Zimbabweans.
This is the cleft stick which all socialist leaders find themselves in - freedom of speech and free elections are noble principles right up until you get to the point where a cabal of corporate and foreign government interests corrupt that nobility by buying favours, telling lies and then when they finally succeed, irretrievably selling the nation down the river.
I think we can assume that any faction led by the Grace Mugabe who is portrayed as corrupt and greedy, will flog the nation off for a big enough pay out.
The trouble is:
A) we cannot be sure that Grace Mugabe is as the western media outside Zimbabwe and the neolib opinion makers inside it, portray her.

B) We also cannot be certain that Emmerson Mnangagwa is the staunch old revolutionary either. The only thing we do know is Robert Mugabe sought to give him the flick. If Mr Mugabe is on his deathbed as alleged, it is just as likely that his final act was about preserving the revolution as it was about thinking with his extremely well-used dick.

Considerably more objective investigation is needed before any call can be made about what is the best way to preserve Zimbabwe from foreign ownership.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Nov 15, 2017 4:04:02 PM | 23

Thanks B for this article and for opening up the comments forum for others like Guy Thornton, Xor and Debsisdead (thanks to you all!) to elucidate further on Zimbabwe's recent history and Britain's role in keeping the country poor and struggling and perhaps helping to justify Robert Mugabe's megalomania.

Curious to know whether Major General Sibusiso Moyo (promoted to his current rank by Mugabe himself in January 2016 according to Moyo's Wikipedia entry) actually did carry out a coup or whether Moyo and his forces put Mugabe and his family under lockdown to prevent a coup or an assassination attempt being carried out against Mugabe. Could VP Mnangagwa be connected somehow?

I find intriguing also that this incident occurs at a time when Zimbabwe is opening up its economy (and promoting its farmland and mineral wealth) to huge Chinese investment.

Looks like this will be a channel to stay tuned to.

Posted by: Jen | Nov 15, 2017 4:24:38 PM | 24

'In 2000 Mugabe ousted some 4,000 white farmers who had owned and ran large estates. In a sweeping land reform the farms were split into plots and redistributed to local people. Agricultural productivity tanked and has since not fully recovered. '

a little bit of history here:
'As Zimbabwe descends into anarchy and chaos, land is irrationally seized from productive farmers, we are told. President Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe is portrayed as a dictator bent on driving his nation into starvation and economic disaster while benevolent U.S. and British leaders call for democracy and human rights. These are the images presented by Western news reports, intended to persuade the public to support an interventionist policy. As always when the West targets a foreign leader for removal, news reports ignore complexity and context, while the real motivations for intervention remain hidden.
\....
When it was clear that the apartheid Rhodesian government could not long remain in power, the Lancaster House Conference was convened in 1979. Land was the core issue for the liberation struggle, and British and American negotiators ensured that independence would not be granted without the imposition of certain conditions. One provision stipulated that for a period of 10 years, land ownership in Zimbabwe could only be transferred on a "willing seller, willing buyer" basis, which effectively limited the extent of land reform. Whites were also allotted a parliamentary quota of 20 seats, far exceeding their actual percentage of the population.

Passage of the Land Acquisition Act in 1992 finally permitted a more flexible approach to land reform, but progress continued to be constrained by outside pressure. Despite real progress, by the time the latest round of land reform was launched, 70 percent of the richest and most productive land still remained in the hands of a mere 4,500 white commercial farm owners.
..
The unspoken assumption is that only white farmers are capable of efficiency. The concern expressed in the West for "efficiency" is in reality a mask for the preservation of white privilege. Temporary economic dislocation is an unavoidable byproduct of land reform, but genuine and lasting progress can only be achieved through land redistribution. In the West, the gross imbalance imposed by colonial theft is accepted as the natural order in Zimbabwe, with the indigenous population lacking any claim to the land. Fast track land reform is intended to rectify historical injustices and to ensure a more equitable division of the land. '
http://www.swans.com/library/art8/elich004.html

dont take the side of the land thieves.

UK could have helped with land reform...UK chose to demonise president Mugabe instead and embargo the coutry

Posted by: brian | Nov 15, 2017 4:28:43 PM | 25

'Unfortunately his economic policies, together with "western" sanctions and currency manipulations'

this puts the blame on Mugabe, and only secondarily on western (why the quotes?) sanctions

Posted by: brian | Nov 15, 2017 4:31:14 PM | 26

more from Greg ELich who has done his homework:
'There was a time when the management of the economy in Zimbabwe was highly regarded in Western circles. Throughout its first decade of independence, Zimbabwe's economy grew at an average of 4 percent per year, and substantial gains were made in education and health. Zimbabwe was handling its finances well, and between 1985 and 1989 had cut its debt-service ratio in half. (6) However, the demise of socialism in Europe resulted in an inhospitable environment for nations charting an independent course, and Zimbabwe felt compelled by Western demands to liberalize its economy. In January 1991, Zimbabwe adopted its Economic Structural Adjustment Program (ESAP), designed primarily by the World Bank. The program called for the usual prescription of actions advocated by Western financial institutions, including privatization, deregulation, a reduction of government expenditures on social needs, and deficit cutting. User fees were instituted for health and education, and food subsidies were eliminated. Measures protecting local industry from foreign competition were also withdrawn.

The impact was immediate. While pleasing for Western investors, the result was a disaster for the people of Zimbabwe. According to one study, the poorest households in Harare saw their income drop over 12 percent in the year from 1991 to 1992 alone, while real wages in the country plunged by a third over the life of the program. Falling income levels forced people to spend a greater percentage of their income on food, and second-hand clothes were imported to compensate for the inability of most of Zimbabwe's citizens to purchase new clothing. A 1994 survey in Harare found that 90 percent of those interviewed felt that ESAP had adversely affected their lives. The rise in food prices was seen as a major problem by 64 percent of respondents, while many indicated that they were forced to reduce their food intake. ESAP resulted in mass layoffs and crippled the job market so that many were unable to find any employment at all. In the communal areas, the rise in fertilizer prices meant that subsistence farmers were no longer able to fertilize their land, resulting in lower yields. ESAP also mandated the elimination of price controls, allowing those shop owners in communal area who were free of competition to mark prices up dramatically. In 1995, the IMF cut funding to the program when it felt that Zimbabwe wasn't cutting its budget and laying off civil service employees fast enough. Furthermore, the IMF complained, the pace of privatization wasn't rapid enough. But implementation of ESAP was quite fast enough for the people of Zimbabwe. By 1995, over one third of Zimbabwe's citizens could not afford a basic food basket, shelter and clothing. From 1991 to 1995, Zimbabwe experienced a sharp deindustrialization, as manufacturing output fell 40 percent. (7) According to an economic writer from the ruling Zimbabwe African National Union Patriotic Front (ZANU-PF), "There is a general consensus among the people of Zimbabwe that ESAP has driven many families into poverty. The program only benefited a privileged minority at the expense of the underprivileged majority." (8) As intended by Western financial institutions, one could argue. '
http://www.swans.com/library/art8/elich004.html

Posted by: brian | Nov 15, 2017 4:32:30 PM | 27

Mugabe is "protected" by the CIA. Remember, he allowed for a couple of the black sites to be opened up on Zimbabwean soil as part of the rendition programme back in the day.

Further, they also supplied him with information that allowed him to stop that plane that had Margaret Thatcher's son and his mercenaries on their way to a coup in Equatorial Guinea in 2004.

The Brits have never liked him but that was the tipping point.

All of that history is important.... but up to a point. Dude is 7 years from turning 100! His time has come one way or another. It's what follows that is going to interesting....

Posted by: Skeletor | Nov 15, 2017 5:06:48 PM | 28

The englanders can never talk of land reform, take a look at what happened there and you will see land theft and it's consequences. The rulers stole the commons from the people and manipulated/forced them into a variant of slavery. The englanders ruling class only understand theft and thuggery combined with pernicious manipulation. Good luck to the people of Zimbabwe to set a different course.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 15, 2017 5:11:32 PM | 29

@debsisdead 23

The agricultural side of things is not too hot, my friend. The boers who really knew their shit all fucked off, or were killed by angry war veterans who were promised land by RM, and waited patiently for more then a decade to no avail, and eventually took it. The reason Mugabe didnt force the issue (he just let it slide) was because he knew the economy would be fucked if he did. But international sanctions fucked us up more than the incredible ineptitude of the black farmers who took over. The people ultimately suffered as a result, and if it wasn't for support from South Africa and other neighbors, there would be a Yemen style shitfest there right now. The upside for myself, anyway, is that all these huge tobacco farms etc have gone back to nature, and Zim is at its most beautiful, the massive agri death squads are not quite here yet. The downside, obviously, is the economic hardships that come with a country that cant provide a fraction of its own food yet. But maybe thats exactly what this is all about. Watch big agri move in quick sticks after Mugabe dies. They'll get their colonialism either way, and wish the jaapies were back. Funny fact right here: millions of Zimbabwean refugees working for the same boers now, over the border, and millions more still depending on those guys for food. Seems to me at some point at the end of last century the country had a choice to either change at its own pace or be hijacked by Mugabe's loyal vets. I personally admire the old cunt, he really stuck to his guns, but he was up against more firepower than anybody could hope to deal with.
Anyway, I rate Zimbabweans as some of the most intelligent, friendly people I know, black and white, and Im sure they'll be fine,
as long as the UK and US stay the fuck away. Oh, and as long as Gucci doesn't have anything to do with it. She is the antithesis of humility.

Posted by: dan | Nov 15, 2017 5:14:05 PM | 30

Well hopefully the military will call the military in Thailand to see how not to F$$$ Up.

Thanks for the comments of those that have been there or still are.

Posted by: jo6pac | Nov 15, 2017 5:28:44 PM | 31

In addition to the motives mentioned above (opening up Zimbabwe to an IMF-rape, preventing the country from getting too close with China), there is another possible reason they turned on Mugabe: according to reports, he was trying to establish a gold-backed 'afro' currency along with Libya, Congo and S. Africa about 15 years ago. Look what they did to Khaddafi! They want to get rid of Mugabe, too.

Posted by: Seamus Padraig | Nov 15, 2017 5:28:53 PM | 32

Posted by: Debsisdead | Nov 15, 2017 4:04:02 PM | 23

Foreign ownership of Zimbabwe - would be China. "The West" boycotted Zimbabwe - therefore the partner is China.

"This is why the people of Zimbabwe have to be extremely careful right now.
England is about to get into a major food shortage - well affordable food, once they leave the EU. Food prices are already shooting up since the pound has been dropping value and once brexit happens which will take away guaranteed access to price fixed tucker at the same time as the pound plummets
,"

No. The pound is the pound is the pound - before and after Brexit. And world food prices are much lower than EU prices as the EU acts protectionist.
Britain will be able to buy cheap from the world market. Food from Europe will get even more expensive (and less competitive) than it is now.

Zimbabwe's food will simply go to the world market - the food they can export.

Zimbabwe's economy seems have recovered since 2009 when they stopped issuing their own currency. Which seems such a simple remedy.

.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 15, 2017 6:07:06 PM | 33

the sheer cheek of Boris Johnson to complain about the possibility of "one tyrant replacing another" in Zim when the British govt routinely backs & sanctions the sale of billions of Pounds worth of weaponry to vicious tyrants all over the place. They only started opposing Mugabe when they realised they couldnt control him. That's not to say old Bob hasn't ballsed up the economy & committed some dreadful crimes against his political/tribal foes these past few decades but it's always worth highlighting Western hypocrisy, especially since the mainstream media refuse to do so!

Posted by: Nick | Nov 15, 2017 6:23:39 PM | 34

30

Food production seems to have improved a lot

Some problems could be due to uneconomic stuff like a drought.

Britain has noticed- like here The Spectator

After 44 years I returned last week. That picture is a distortion. The government has wrecked lives and much worse, there is a sense of vacuum and fear for the future, and everyone seems to be treading water. But neither the country nor its people are on their knees and the institutions of public administration are still, more or less, in place. The crisis brought on by rampant inflation is over. I saw no evidence of starvation. Rural Africans appear to be living in more or less the same way, and in the same conditions, as they did under white rule.

As the economic pillar it once was, farming has been smashed, and though the cattle are fat a drought is coming; but there are straggly crops in the fields, the shops are full of food, and I encountered fewer beggars than in London. There are schools everywhere — education was always good by Africa’s standards, under white rule too — and little girls and boys in bright uniforms crowd the roadside each morning: the pinch comes with secondary education, just as under white rule.

There is more if you are interested.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 15, 2017 6:29:05 PM | 35

@brian 27,
On the agricultural production issue, here's an important point on the drop in irrigation:

Last year the Herald, a government-owned daily newspaper, quoted Conrade Zawe of the department of irrigation in the ministry of agriculture as saying that about half of the 250,000 hectares of land under irrigation in 2000 were being irrigated in 2013.

www.un.org. . .-2014/zimbabwe’s-farmers-struggle-feed-nation
When you look at regions that get slammed by droughts (Syria in 2006) and ones that survive them (California's epic drought), that's the big difference - agricultural infrastructure for irrigation. That accounts for most of the loss of crop production in Zimbabwe.

The other factor is financial support for farmers - who have to be able to buy seed and fertilizer and farm equipment at the beginning of the season if they want to get a good harvest, even with irrigation. This has been a traditional activity of farmers and local commercial banks across the United States, that's why relatively small farmers (a few hundred hectares at most, about 150 hectares is the average size of farms in California and Iowa) grow most of the produce consumed in the U.S. Cut off all those lines of credit, for various reasons such as no more exports for foreign funds, international sanctions targeting Mugabe, etc. and the whole system of production starves to death.

The biggest problem seems to be that the Mugabe government just handed out land to people who knew nothing about farming, for political reasons, then didn't invest in training and supplying them. This is also where the competitive market system always seems to beat the collectivized state production system, in agriculture and manufacturing. Where the FDR-style 'socialist' approach could have helped - farmer education & training, irrigation infrastructure, national investment banks, etc. - it looks like the overly corrupt self-serving Mugabe government just didn't do its job.

However, the pre-2000 system wasn't so fantastic either, it looks like following the advice of the IMF and World Bank was a recipe for disaster in Zimbabwe just like it was in so many other countries. No real development, export crops for foreign investors, rampant poverty for most people - nothing there looks good, either. Maybe that whole pan-African nationalism approach is their only way out of the current situation.

Posted by: nonsense factory | Nov 15, 2017 6:48:51 PM | 36

@28
'Mugabe is "protected" by the CIA'


say what?!

NO!

Posted by: brian | Nov 15, 2017 7:45:12 PM | 37

...following the advice of the IMF and World Bank was a recipe for disaster in Zimbabwe just like it was in so many other countries. No real development, export crops for foreign investors, rampant poverty for most people - nothing there looks good, either. Maybe that whole pan-African nationalism approach is their only way out of the current situation.

It seems that the well-intended Gaddafi was the point man on the Pan Africa enterprise. Perhaps China has a leg up (in Africa) on the west at this time. They can't be any worse.
Name one country that has given in to the IMF/World Bank to the betterment of its common people.

I can't think of one.

Note all the bad PR about Duterte in the Filippines and his "pivot to China" Note that ISIS has "taken root" there.

Note that the average wage there is less than $4 a day if you can find any work. IMF = Int'l Mo Fo's.

Posted by: fast freddy | Nov 15, 2017 7:49:34 PM | 38

@ 15

thanks for the personal reflection. It is always good to hear from people involved how things happened over time and their reflection on them now.

Posted by: les7 | Nov 15, 2017 8:51:45 PM | 39

Posted by: somebody | Nov 15, 2017 6:29:05 PM | 34

If you want to respond sensibly don't bother quoting from tory propaganda sheets such as the spectator which hasn't produced an accurate balanced article since its inception in 1828. Like its fellow traveler the Daily Telegraph, the spectator is overtly white supremacist and exists only top ensure the lower orders do as they are told and keep voting against their best interests by supporting the half-witted policies of the swivel-eye, chinless wonders who have been oppressing decent human beings since 1066.

Zimbabwe's land reform was about returning traditional land to traditional owners to do with as they see fit.
I was closely involved in similar returns to Indigenous Australians. Some clans decide to follow the whitefella model; whereupon they are immediately hit by a lose-lose dichotomy. They either hafta call in whitefella managers who not only treat the traditional owners like disposable dogs, they rip the joint off blind - artfully trousering any profit the enterprise has made.
Meanwhile making the clan feel like foreigners in their own country.
The alternative - sending youngfellas off to learn agricultural techniques seems to work rather better on the surface but it does require the young trainee whitefellas to miss out on induction into indigenous culture, and for people tied as closely to the land as both nomadic and agrarian traditional owners are, that is equivalent to expecting a son or daughter to forgo their lives eternally for the greater good.

Ultimately most traditional owners who have successfully negotiated the divisive and destructive attempts by colonisers to 'whitesplain' them, prefer to see land holdings return to their original state.

As for China, the bulk of Zimbabwe's involvement with the PRC occurred back in the days of Zhou Enlai's foreign policy of non-intervention in other nations. Zhou Enlai had quit the foreign ministry by the time Zimbabwe found freedom, but only because he had moved on to become premier of the PRC and the PRC government was more interested in nurturing other socialist states than exploiting them, despite the outrageous bullshit western media was pumping out back then.

As can be found here the current englander regime is desperate to conceal the effect on food prices of Brexit.-indubitably supported by somebody's favourite englander news source the spectator.

Even now pre-Brexit england food prices have soared 4.2% month on month - this in a nation where wages have been going backwards since the introduction of 'post 2008 GFC austerity'.

The link included in Brian's post intimates that the UK had been hell bent on exploiting Zimbabwe as a strategy to cope with the problem of a nation which cannot produce sufficient food to support it's population.

France didn't cop the same problems with eastern european migrant labour inflow, because they correctly used the restraints on population flow included in the EU's agreement, but the leadership in UK elected to allow unrestricted labour inflows in return for easier access to agriculture than other established EU nations, knowing that whenever they got questioned about it, they could place the blame at the feet of the alleged but entirely false 'banana bending' rules of the EU, a specious fantasy supported by tory media outlets such as 'the spectator'.
N.B. I notice the current frontpage of the spectator website includes at least 3 links to stories which try (and fail) to denigrate Mr Corbyn.

The MSM is a mess of subjective half truths at the best of times but anything appearing in the spectator is unmitigated subjective propaganda always.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Nov 15, 2017 9:38:24 PM | 40

it's a big generalization but it seems that these african and third world nations which were once dominated and ruled by colonial powers, are now dominated by corrupt local oligarchies and corrupt greedy multinational corporation which control things in much the same way as the old colonial powers. so not much is able to change for the vast majority of people.

Mugabee was a hero of mine years ago for his resistance and the liberation. but as so often happens, and as some here have commented, in the face of tremendous international pressure by corporations and by finance Capital, and the sanctions (a near death sentence to former/neo-colonial nations), progressive revolutions/movements are often stymied or sidetracked or corrupted in these poorer countries which in fact need revolution and a new order of things the most.

btw, GDP - per capita (PPP) is only $2200, putting it at #206 out of 230 nations in the world. and some 72% in 2012 lived below the poverty line. a sad state of affairs

Posted by: michaelj72 | Nov 15, 2017 9:40:53 PM | 41

Background on comulative destabilising influences inside Zimbabwe from Andrew Korbyko

https://orientalreview.org/2017/02/17/hybrid-wars-8-is-southern-africa-about-to-be-shaken-up/

Posted by: Bolt | Nov 15, 2017 9:49:22 PM | 42

Eritria and Zimbabwe are the only 2 countries in Africa to not have USA AFRICOM troops or bases. Hence "sanctions", anti-propaganda, etc, just like Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, etc.

Look how great Mali,Niger have been lately with AFRICOM Seals/Green Berets, sometimes killing each other, sometimes just killing the locals, sometimes getting killed.

Posted by: Joe Slovo | Nov 15, 2017 10:33:23 PM | 43

The only reason for Mugabe’s longevity is the military elite living very nicely on the chunks of cake falling off his table. The abandoned and redistributed “white” farms were dished out to his loyalists, resulting in a total collapse of the agricultural sector and, as a result, the food supply chain. The idea that land was redistributed to the people is a half-truth. The land not dished out, was simply taken over by local loyalist thugs. This goes for the mines and other industries as well.

If one wants to do any business in Zim, one first has to make contributions to whomever is in the relevant local power structure. This, business is only happy to do.

Grace Mugabe is threatening to replace the current lot of piggies at the trough with different piggies. This cannot be allowed, and this brouhaha is aimed at the new piggies – not the bedrock of the structure. If Mugabe does not reign in Grace and Co, he will die of “old age” and the military will install a new pig-in-chief.

The Ndebele people will have no respite and the ruling Shona elite will simply continue feeding.

I have also noticed that the education system has not retained its relatively high standards. Zimmers inform me that this is also collapsing.

I seriously doubt that the western powers have much influence here and I doubt that there will be any positive transition. South Africa does not have a hand in this. It suited the ANC in South Africa to have Mugabe in power. A change to a similar regime will not have any real impact so long as the “revolution” continues.

Same old same old.

Posted by: E | Nov 15, 2017 10:37:56 PM | 44

thanks for the many fine posts here... @20 xor, @30 dan and the posts by debs - all insightful and informative..

@40 michaelj... i wouldn't put too much faith in economists barometers... these are the same fuckers that want to sell imf/world bank loans to get everyone functioning on the same shitty level that becomes a reliance on the western system.. if money was happiness, the wealthy would be less given over to hoarding and screwing over there fellow human travelers as they continue to do..

Posted by: james | Nov 15, 2017 10:39:46 PM | 45

Debsisdead

I saw the same thing in the bit of time I spent on the Kimberly platue. Looking at the pieces on Z farming in this thread, I also imediatly thought of the similarities.
Though there, it was not just white farmers pocketing the money, but also officials of the ALC.
For any infrastructure in the communities, government grants had to be ten x the required amount to cover what was required by the town dwelling, educated aboriginal people who were ALC officials for purchasing rental properties. It realy was/is a fucked up world for the old time stockmen, who are once again living on their traditional land, with traditional culture, without white overseerers/masters

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 16, 2017 1:11:23 AM | 46

In 2000 Zimbabwe had a referendum on a constitutional amendment that would allow the government to seize white owned farms without compensation and was soundly defeated.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_constitutional_referendum,_2000

They saw through the populist measure that was designed to boost support for ZANUPF that was widely expected to lose the next election. It had nothing to do with redressing colonialism and everything to do with Mugabe and his cronies maintaining their grip on power and continuing to loot the state at will.

As everyone knows what they couldn't achieve by democratic means they achieved by force. Grace took 5 of the best farms for herself and then proceeded to bully Nestle to pay more for milk than the going market rate. While the white farmers lost their land 1.5 million black farm workers became unemployed overnight.

Mugabe built a kleptocracy hiding behind anti-colonialist rhetoric. Here in SA we are well aware of the high life the Mugabe family lived whilst their fellow countrymen wallowed in poverty.

Mugabe was no anti-colonialist hero just a typical African strong man leader who saw his country as his personal property to do as he wanted. The sweet irony of the "anti-colonialist" hero being deposed by his own black countrymen.

Posted by: Down south | Nov 16, 2017 1:46:58 AM | 47

Down south @ 46 is, unfortunately, correct. What needs to be added is that the SADC Tribunal found against Zimbabwe (Mugabe) in a test case regarding expropriation without compensation. The Tribunal then gently expired with the complicity of the other countries. The South African courts, to their credit, upheld the decision of the Tribunal and some Zimbabwean properties were attached for execution.

We must not make the mistake of thinking that all white farmers were exploitative and all black Zimbabweans heroes of a revolution. The situation is much more nuanced than that. All the blame can also not be laid at the feet of the Western financial interests. Mugabe and his cronies, after massacring many, many of his political opponents in Matabeleland (mostly minority Ndebele) made it very clear who will wield power.

It seems that the "war veterans" (basically the movers and shakers behind the armed forces) have indicated their support for the vice president Mnangagwa in a government of national unity and that Mugabe will receive a safe exit.

The opposition leader, Morgan Tswangirai is, reportedly, on his way to negotiate.

This, imo, indicates that Grace is “retiring”. Her excesses have caught up with her, but this does not mean that the new government will be angels. Politics in Zim is deeply tribal and the threat of violence will, for the foreseeable future, permeate politics. A government of national unity was tried before and did not work out well for anybody apart from those who control the guns - the Shona.

Posted by: E | Nov 16, 2017 2:47:35 AM | 48

@ Down south
From somebodys link above, its worth reading if you're thinking about the possible impact of all of this on South Africa.

https://orientalreview.org/2017/02/17/hybrid-wars-8-is-southern-africa-about-to-be-shaken-up/

The buildup to this quote supposes that a long-planned color revolution in Zim could, with the help of various nefarious influences, (the US, cough cough) escalate into a full scale shitfest, resulting in the spread of the insurrection, through Weapons of Mass Immigration, to all four of Zims neighbors.

From the link:

Washington ideally hoped that South African President Zuma would have already been deposed by a ‘constitutional coup’ by now and that his country could be the ‘Lead From Behind’ springboard for guaranteeing that the anti-Mugabe mission succeeded, but since he defied the odds and survived the plot earlier this year (unlike his BRICS counterpart Dilma Rousseff), it’s likely that the US intends to target him once again almost immediately after toppling Mugabe. In fact, South Africa has always been the regional crown jewel for American regime change planners, and it’s not unlikely that everything that’s going on in Zimbabwe right now is purposely aimed at eventually destabilizing its southern BRICS neighbor. For the moment at least, South Africa is still in a position to render supportive assistance to its anti-apartheid ally (however limited and/or symbolic it may be), but this could abruptly stop if the liberal Soros-funded “Democratic Alliance” ‘opposition’ pulls off an impressive showing during the 3 August nationwide local elections and expands their power over the rest of the remaining major cities that are still outside of their control, which is what some observers are expecting.

A ruling ANC party spokesman accused the US of fomenting regime change earlier this year, and even though Zuma ‘dodged a bullet’ with his impeachment case, it doesn’t mean that there isn’t a ‘Plan B’ for the US to fall back on and that a Zimbabwean Hybrid War concurrent with the upcoming local elections isn’t part of it. The political future of the President and his ANC party are in doubt because of some serious economic and domestic mishandlings, so it’s entirely possible that the pro-American ‘opposition’ will gain some extra support in the next electoral round and gradually strengthen their influence in the country, much to Zuma and his multipolar BRICS partners’ expected expense. With the ‘opposition’ gaining ground and working hand-in-hand with the US’ allied information outlets to craft the perception that they’re on the inevitable ascent to full power, the “Democratic Alliance” can be in a much better position to popularize the concept of Identity Federalism if an out-of-control Zimbabwean Hybrid War destructively spills across the border and produces the conditions for its advancement.

The BRICS stalwart of South Africa is existentially threatened by the danger that Weapons of Mass Migration could spark the unitary republic’s dissolution into a collection of quasi-independent tribal/ethnic-based federal statelets. Not only are visible segments of South African society violently xenophobic against the influx of African migrant workers that have flooded into the economically promising state over the past two decades, but there are even deep undercurrents of extremely polarized tension among its native peoples. Zulu nationalism was blamed for the xenophobic riots of early 2015, and the failure of South Africa to transcend identity-centric politics poses a very real threat to all other ethnicities within the country such as the Xhosa and Basotho, for example, whether they’re killing one another or fighting within their own groups.

Without the shared enemy of apartheid to unite the country’s disparate range of ethnic-tribal identities, it regretfully looks like some of these groups are at a serious risk of “self-segregating” and dividing the country along their identity lines. Tribalism has always been a civilizational vulnerability for the sub-Saharan African peoples just as sectarianism has been for the Muslim ones, and the rich spectrum of South Africa’s countless diverse identities could be violently divided against one another by external manipulation even easier than the binary Sunni-Shia split was savagely masterminded over recent years. All that it might take to produce this American-anticipated reaction is the large-scale introduction of Weapons of Mass Migration to set off an uncontrollable spate of deadly xenophobic purges that quickly spiral to the point of all-out civil war between the native ethnicities, eventually resulting in the de-facto re-institutionalization of “Bantustans” via the ‘politically correct’ and ‘domestically asked-for’ ‘black-led’ ‘solution’ of Identity Federalism.

Posted by: dan | Nov 16, 2017 3:03:21 AM | 49

@ Bolt 41

Thanks for the link, I thought it important so reposted for luck.

Posted by: dan | Nov 16, 2017 3:09:05 AM | 50

@ dan

We in SA are between a rock and two hard places. The ANC is deeply corrupt. The breakaway factions are pro-West, but many people are considering this route simply because of the rot in the ANC. The main opposition party, the DA, is also deeply pro-West with all that entails. The third party is the EFF, radical “revolutionaries” and a former ANC breakaway, will, as it did in the last local elections, be the kingmaker. Rumours are already flying that, if necessary, the EFF will re-join the ANC to tip the scale back to the ANC.

Unfortunately, the BRICS is not seen as the economic and “moral” future. It is seen as anti-West and anti-colonial - an ideological, almost cold war, point of view and not a pragmatic, realistic kick in the behind to pull up our socks and start working on education, training, healthcare, import substitution, food security, defense etc.

For the “other” side, the lure of Western goodies proves very strong. Local traditions and culture have already, to a large extent, been “Americanised” and the indoctrinated press is working hard along the same lines. But the ANC has given it to them on a platter. Our esteemed President has tainted Russia, China, BRICS and all it entails with his own corruption.

The “shared enemy of apartheid” has kept the ANC broadly cohesive, but I seriously doubt that the tribal differences are as serious as the article implies. “Internal” xenophobia is, imo, not a serious threat. The animus against Zimbabweans and other foreign economic migrants is, however, very real. If there is a greater influx of migrants, it will be South Africans against the “makwerekwere.”

I detest the ANC for what it has become, but I detest the DA even more for what it is and always has been. We are in for seriously interesting times.

Posted by: E | Nov 16, 2017 3:46:22 AM | 51

Yingluck of Thailand,
Gould Whitlam of Oz,
Kevin Rudd of Oz, [he speaks Mandarin too !]
PM Hatoyama of Jp,
Prez Rajapaksa of Sir Lanka,
PM oli of Nepal,
King Birendra of Nepal,
PM Thinley of Bhutan,
PM Rajiv Ghandhi of India,
Prez Sukarno of Indon,
PM Najib of Malaysia,
........
My memory is failing, there might be others that's missed out.

Whats the common thread to these leaders who were either regime changed, bumped off or subjected to intense political attack ?

Here's Yingluck with Xi before her downfall....
http://au.china-embassy.org/eng/xw/W020111226481170559284.jpg

Bhutan PM Thinley with Wen Jiabao, shortly before his ouster by CIA/RAW
regime change.
http://bit.ly/2zLbTDl

Every one of the above has a similar story to tell !

The fundamental law of probability says,
Once is accident, twice is coincidence, thrice,,,,,...enemy action !


Mathematically speaking, there's a 99.9% chance that Mugabe is the latest victim
of the accursed 'Chinese kiss of death' !

Posted by: denk | Nov 16, 2017 4:29:01 AM | 52

@dan

South Africa is headed for a shit storm regardless of what the US does for the simple fact that the ANC is in the same position ZANUPF was in in 2000. They have lost control of 2 major metros in the municipal elections and may or may not lose in the 2019 national elections. In order to compensate for their loss in popularity due to rampant corruption, cronyism, incompetence, and squandering and theft of state resources they are trying to implement the same populist measure that ruined Zimbabwe. Expropriation without compensation, the Bell Pottinger fiasco, free tertiary education etc.

Just to give a taste of the scale of the problem.

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2017-11-01-2017-auditor-general-report-financial-health-of-state-owned-entities-flails-amid-ballooning-irregular-expenditure/

Posted by: Down south | Nov 16, 2017 4:29:14 AM | 53

Posted by: Debsisdead | Nov 15, 2017 9:38:24 PM | 39

Britain still is in the EU with all this means ie same EU food price. If prices have risen BREXIT is NOT the reason. There is no "pre Brexit", Britain is part of the EU.

I quoted the conservative British papers because they are counter the initial narrative - that Zimbabwe just does not work run by black people - it seems it does not worse than under white people. It is also possible though that British conservatives realized that if they want to deal with Zimbabwe (those mines!) they have to stop the sanctions.

Africa for sure is where the Chinese - European - US resource wars are heating up and hybrid wars are the fashion.

The military taking over/dictatorship is stabilization, not destabilization. As bad as it is for the human rights of citizens.

Zimbabwe's military is close to China.

To assume the world is the same it was 20 years ago, means people are getting old.

52
In order to compensate for their loss in popularity due to rampant corruption, cronyism, incompetence, and squandering and theft of state resources they are trying to implement the same populist measure that ruined Zimbabwe. Expropriation without compensation, the Bell Pottinger fiasco, free tertiary education etc.

Nothing wrong with free tertiary education.


Posted by: somebody | Nov 16, 2017 7:01:48 AM | 54

Hmm interesting article in The spectator by Peter Oborne.

“Real democracy or a tribal bloodbath? Zimbabwe is on the brink
The West is gambling that Mugabe’s likely replacement won’t be worse”


“...Though life was dire in the final decade of Mugabe’s Zimbabwe, it could get far worse. It could descend to tribal warfare and civil breakdown. Zimbabwe could turn into the unspeakable horror of South Sudan or the Congo. Emmerson Mnangagwa can stop this happening. That is the calculation of Western diplomats. That is why Britain (though diplomats deny this, both publicly and privately) is behind him.”

Posted by: James lake | Nov 16, 2017 7:05:55 AM | 55

The only thing worse for Africa than colonialism was decolonization.

Posted by: Old Ez | Nov 16, 2017 8:14:23 AM | 56

54 :-))

those mines

55

Worse for whom in Africa?

Posted by: somebody | Nov 16, 2017 8:23:32 AM | 57

I wonder if the racist apologists for the Smith Regime and or colonialism in general also lament the recovery of independence by Poland and France?

Posted by: Squeeth | Nov 16, 2017 9:17:54 AM | 58

Anybody here realize Mugabe was knighted in 1994? Thats right, Sir Robert Mugabe. But he chased down the Lancaster Accords, insisting Britain stuck to its legally binding side of the deal, to compensate any future victims of land redistribution. Heres Ken Sibanda:

"Legal Precedent:

On land distribution Robert Mugabe is correct - the British do owe the Zimbabwean people assistance its historic implementation. For the simple reason that the British government government of 79’ agreed to assist Zimbabwe’s land program regardless of Mugabe’s Human right record or misrule. It was an issue litigated/ concluded and discussed at Lancaster House and binding. Zimbabwe can argue collateral estoppel.

Collateral estoppel is rule of law that says previous issues are binding when concluded between parties and cannot be raised again. In that breath, land was an issue, factually discussed by Britain and Zimbabwe's future government. It binds future parties in-interest. Land was the key issue why the guerrilla war was fought, for Britain to say no verbal agreement was ever settled is a disservice to all involved.

The Lancaster Accords were not conditioned on good governance. The breach of treaties such as this one that were signed by six agents of change has its redress in international bodies such as the United Nations. This would be morbidly embarrassing for a country, like Britain, that was at the center of criticizing Mugabe as a lawless ruler; to be brought before an international body for its refusal to respect what is in simple terms a private international law document between Britain and Zimbabwe."

http://www.jpost.com/Blogs/From-Solomons-Temple/Lancaster-House-Accords-What-Britain-owes-Zimbabwe-406561

As for Mugabe's honorary Knighthood, it was stripped from him by the queen in 2008. Nobody mentions it anymore, but Im pretty sure the Madala had a good chuckle about the absurdity of the whole thing. While he was a Knight, he made a few insulting remarks concerning the "nation of little gay people", but only after he had realized the futility of trying to pursue a legally binding Accord, and was thus deposed. "Take that, old chap! You are no longer Her Majesty's loyal keeper! Oh the shame!"

Posted by: dan | Nov 16, 2017 9:35:46 AM | 59

58
Mugabe's (and other's) life and the fight against colonialism are sure impressive. And support from China was part of it.

China might even have an economic model.

Whatever people in Zimbabwe will do - they decide.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 16, 2017 9:46:59 AM | 60

>>>> dan | Nov 15, 2017 5:14:05 PM | 30

The boers who really knew their shit all fucked off

At least get that fact right. Almost all the farmers in Southern Rhodesia were of British origin rather than Boer. The Boers hated the British and hated Rhodes even more, so they only moved to Rhodesia in small numbers (about 1% of the white farmers).

As for Mugabe, a South African friend reckons that he was better than the ANC leadership in many ways. He kept the colonial educational system which was probably the best in Africa rather than replacing it as the ANC did.

>>>> dan | Nov 16, 2017 9:35:46 AM | 58

Well you got that right.

My South African also points out that the UK was supposed to contribute substantially to the cost of buying out white farmers who were occupying land stolen by the colonial administration but the British never came through with the money.

The corruption under Mugabe in Zimbabwe was never as outrageous at that under Mobutu in Congo(Kinshasa)/Zaire/Democratic Republic of Congo, and Mobutu was beloved by western governments.

BTW, Jeremy Scahill over at The Intercept has come out in favour of Whataboutism(which Glenn Greenwald retweeted).

Posted by: Ghostship | Nov 16, 2017 10:57:53 AM | 61

Personally, i hope that Mugabe hangs around for another 2 years as President (God willing) until 2020 (preferably january 2020, the starting date of his reign).

due to my theory/belief that Mugabe and his reign of mis-rule was
sent by God as a sort of punishment to the people of Zimbabwe for exactly 40 years.

(and not a day or do less-or-more, if i'm lucky).
(never sure what the punishment was for, though.

if not, then, oops, bang goes that particular theory.
(and send my apologies to the people of Zimbabwe).

People of Zimbabwe have probably already realised that this is the case, and ought to learn from his deeds and mis-deeds in the future, in the same way people of Israel must have learned something after getting stuck in the Sinai desert for 40 years.

Posted by: chris m | Nov 16, 2017 11:33:22 AM | 62

#60 Ghostship
Scahill is spot on. In a just world, construction would commence on an 9' razor wire fence around G W 's Crawfish Texas Ranch with well paid Iraqi war vets on 24 hour overwatch.

Posted by: str8arrow62 | Nov 16, 2017 11:43:16 AM | 63

What is the meaning here? Why would Grace Mugabe ask that her husband, Mugabe, be named his own successor?

“Mugabe is now 93 years old and apparently frail. There has long been infighting over his succession. Mugabe’s wife “Gucci” Grace Mugabe and her children are well known for being exceptionally corrupt and prodigal when it comes to their personal amenities. On November 5 Grace Mugabe asked her husband to be named as his successor.”

Should this not be mentioned, at least in passing?
Ongoing white genocide in South Africa http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/White_Genocide_TVA.pdf

Posted by: Ian | Nov 16, 2017 11:46:42 AM | 64

@ Ghostship 60

"Boer" means farmer, my friend. Used exclusively for white farmers in south Africa by foreigners, its a bit of a misnomer. I know, because I live here. There is bugger all discrimination between Afrikaans farmers and all the other white white farmers of various European descent here, although people from abroad often just associate it with the Afrikaans. Funnily enough, I know colored Boers too. Ever heard of the Griquas? But hey, feel free to teach me about my culture anyway. The truth is, however, that for the most part the whites mixed and intermarried freely over here, and that 1% factoid you threw out there is utter bullshit. The majority of whites who lost their farms ended up moving (back to) South Africa, and in 2008 the British decided not to pay their expats who worked for the government under Smith, their pensions, as well as denying a lot of them citizenship. Where do you think they ended up? Well, all over really, but mostly South Africa. I know of very few families who were all descended from the same European country. So yes, maybe the Afrikaans hated the Brits for a while, (can you say "concentration camp") and have always had a beef with Britain, but the Brits who actually had the balls to live here got integrated with no big issues, and had the UK thoroughly bred out of them. Im one.
This place is an absolute mess when trying to investigate a family tree, hence the black/white meme. It simplifies everything.

Posted by: dan | Nov 16, 2017 11:49:54 AM | 65

'' Considerably more objective investigation is needed before any call can be made about what is the best way to preserve Zimbabwe from foreign ownership.''>>>>>>

I am pretty sure the best thing for Zimbabwe isn't bringing in foreign enities to 'fix' elections.


Robert Mugabe’s Made-in-Israel ‘Landslide’ In Zimbabwe

http://forward.com/fast-forward/181670/robert-mugabes-made-in-israel-landslide-in-zimbabwe/?attribution=blog-article-listing-4-headline


Posted by: renfro | Nov 16, 2017 3:11:35 PM | 66

Posted by: somebody | Nov 16, 2017 7:01:48 AM | 54

Are you really that obtuse somebody? ffs The brits don't use the euro, that means the cost of goods bought from other EU nations is dependent on the value of the pound. The pound's value has been plummeting since the announcement of brexit.

As far as the pro brexit fishwraps (such as the one linked above) are concerned, that is because eu chief negotiater Michael Barnier (the latest little englander hate figure) is being intransigent, but out in the real world the most likely explanation is considered to be the massive implosion that will occur to the London 'City" and all the services which support it once the banks, insurance companies and other associated financial institutions are subjected to all sorts of tariffs by the EU because their HQ is no longer in the single market.

When Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein tweeted that from now on he was going to be spending a lot more time in Frankfurt under the hashtag #brexit it was widely reported throughout the financial press and severely negatively impacted the quid's value.
Investors aren't waiting for March 2019 to pull out their dough as that could cost them big if it all happens at once.
These are capitalist parasites who are attempting to maximise returns by pulling out on the drip feed so the drop has been gradual but very real and has now got to the stage where the price of essentials, such as y'know food is increasing substantially.

It is probable that Blankfein's tweet was dual purposed in that the operation in Frankfurt is being increased, but no greedhead really wants the expense and hassle (everyone in London talks vaguely understandable amerikan) of brexit, so the tweet was also about trying to force an attitude shift in england.
That didn't work and the gbp has continued to lose value on most cross currencies. Net result englanders discovering all food prices increasing - yes even the domestically produced foodstuffs as farmers demand the same or higher prices domestically as offshore -if a tonne of spuds costs n pounds in Romania, englander farmers expect n+p quid for their stuff p being the premium englander farmer sticks onto local goods because the foolish consumers consider everything englander sourced to be better quality.

I realise the mental midgets will take this post which draws attention to one of the major negative impacts of brexit as being made by what the little englanders dub, a remoaner. That is not the case but it is stupid to ignore the deleterious effects of tossing the EU.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Nov 16, 2017 6:02:58 PM | 67

In last night's DW/US MSM on the subject, I noticed that the leadership was very well fed. I'll be the rest of the country's population isn't so lucky.

Dan
Thanks for the on-the-ground input.

Posted by: Curtis | Nov 16, 2017 6:13:28 PM | 68

bet not be (last post)

denk 52
Prouty in The Secret Team mentioned the CIA efforts against Sukarno (among others). Lots of weapons brought in to arm insurgents.

Posted by: Curtis | Nov 16, 2017 6:24:38 PM | 69

Posted by: renfro | Nov 16, 2017 3:11:35 PM | 66

That is easy eh, use a tenuous connection of an alleged israeli connection to denigrate Zanu-PF and uphold the findings of an english financed neoliberal front group.
The article you linked to which discussed the 2013 Zimbabwe election is datelined today - weird.
Even weirder is the shadowy beginnings of the far from independent "Zimbabwe Election Support Network" who have done little other than push out lies and exagerations since the englander Intelligence Services attempt to steal the 2008 election failed so miserably.
This piece here about the final report made by foreign observers to the 2013 election, provides a facts based objective analysis of that which you seek to decry. e.g.

“According to the regulations and laws that govern the elections of Sadc, we are required as chair of the monitoring team called SEOM – the Sadc Election Observer Mission – I am supposed to deliver a report outlining the outcome of the process and also commending the nature of the elections,” he said.

“So, we had 30 days that is until tomorrow (today) to make that report public. This is why myself as the head of the Sadc Election Observer Mission together with the Sadc secretariat we deliver the Sadc report on the July 31 election that was held here to the public. So, this is why we are here and the report will be delivered tomorrow (today) at 10:am.”

Sadc deployed 573 observers for the harmonised elections that also drew at least 20 000 local and international observers and hordes of local and foreign journalists.

All the countries and organisations that observed the harmonised elections have endorsed the polls as free, fair and credible, and a reflection of the will of Zimbabweans.

The only dissenting voices have come from the Western-funded Zimbabwe Election Support Network that was funded to the tune of US$5 million ahead of the elections, as well as the MDC-T’s traditional backers comprising of the United States, Britain and its dominions Australia and Canada; that however were not invited to observe the elections.

The African Union, Comesa, the African Caribbean and Pacific countries have since endorsed the elections as free, and fair.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Nov 16, 2017 6:42:44 PM | 70

@40
'I was closely involved in similar returns to Indigenous Australians. Some clans decide to follow the whitefella model; whereupon they are immediately hit by a lose-lose dichotomy. They either hafta call in whitefella managers who not only treat the traditional owners like disposable dogs, they rip the joint off blind - artfully trousering any profit the enterprise has made.
Meanwhile making the clan feel like foreigners in their own country.'

native australians have no history of farming, that im aware of

Posted by: brian | Nov 16, 2017 7:31:50 PM | 71

Posted by: renfro | Nov 16, 2017 3:11:35 PM | 66

you quote the zionist jews??

Posted by: brian | Nov 16, 2017 7:33:38 PM | 72

I don't really contribute much to discussions here because I feel like the blog-host and the folks who comment here are more informed than I am about geo-political matters, so I just wanted to say that I really appreciate MoA for being a source of insight I probably wouldn't get from other USA-based sources on the Internet.

Posted by: Mister Roboto | Nov 16, 2017 10:59:47 PM | 73

Curtis 69

'The Indonesian covert action of 1965, reported by Ralph McGehee, who was in that area division, and had documents on his desk, in his custody about that operation. He said that one of the documents concluded that this was a model operation that should be copied elsewhere in the world. Not only did it eliminate the effective communist party (Indonesian communist party), it also eliminated the entire segment of the population that tended to support the communist party - the ethnic Chinese, Indonesian Chinese. And the CIA's report put the number of dead at 800,000 killed. And that was one covert action. We're talking about 1 to 3 million people killed in these things.

Two of these things have led us directly into bloody wars. There was a covert action against China, destabilizing China, for many, many years, with a propaganda campaign to work up a mood, a feeling in this country, of the evils of communist China, and attacking them'

http://www.whale.to/b/stockwell1.html

Posted by: denk | Nov 17, 2017 4:20:03 AM | 74

Adding information: MadBob's only request was for disGrace to be allowed to leave. Her choice would have been opulent South Africa where her stolen billions would have kept her comfortable for the rest of her putrid days.
However, thanks to assaulting a lady friend of her spoiled offspring, and then fleeing the country illegally, she cannot return to SA.
https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/grace-mugabe-assaulted-me-with-an-extension-cord-model-20-claims-20170814
No bodyguards or SA policemen were harmed in the making of that story.
In 2006 i think she attacked a photographer in Hong Kong, then i found this gem from huffpo.coza (who i despise)
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.za/2017/08/16/5-times-grace-mugabe-got-violent-while-abroad_a_23078921/
Imagine being a lowly peasant slave to this billionaire bitch with anger management issues?

E@44 has it right, nothing was given to the poor, the farms were invaded, farm families murdered or evicted, and the land and goods given to the many bumlickers that now populate the government. They were stripped and laid to waste. The farm workers and families are now hungry, poor and destitute.
Then there's disGrace's way of taking possesion of farms:
https://www.news24.com/Africa/Zimbabwe/excessive-force-used-to-evict-villagers-from-farm-meant-for-grace-mugabe-20170831
Evict all the locals. As bad as if not worse than the worst days of apartheid by the evil white man.
And dear old MadBob and his brutus Emmerson Mnangagwa who slaughtered 20 000 poor people back in the good old days.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gukurahundi

Fun fun fun.
The only white man you can trust is a dead white man. - Mad Bob Mugabe.
Genocidal purveyors of hatred, no wonder the poms are so fixated on them.

Debsisdead@70 Aint it grand how you can kill thousands, harm millions, and still pretend to have free and fair elections reflecting the will of your slaves?

But watch this space, someone was telling me yesterday how South Africa had: transparency, rule of law, and opportunity to change of a democracy. This with an annual murder rate of 20 000 people, attempted murder of as many, and violent rapes of over 25 000. But don't let the figures fool you, less than 10% of rapes are ever reported.

Wonderfully progressive isn't it?

Posted by: david | Nov 17, 2017 4:21:09 AM | 75

What the hell is Chris Marsten smoking,
is he insinuating that China is complicit in the coup ?

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/11/16/zimb-n16.html

disinfo agents showing their true color ???

p.s.
wsws censor my comment ,
hhhhhhh

Posted by: denk | Nov 17, 2017 4:28:51 AM | 76

Posted by: david | Nov 17, 2017 4:21:09 AM | 75

What are you complaining about - only white people allowed to oppress Africans?

Anti apartheid struggle achieved its aim. If you want something else you have to start something new.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 17, 2017 4:37:42 AM | 77

brian 71 "native australians have no history of farming, that im aware of"

What does that have to do with the price of cow shit?
Native Australians were and are very good stockmen.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 17, 2017 4:45:15 AM | 78

From a few diffent article written in the days prior, it apears the military is still loyal to the original independance movement rather than any one man or his missus.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 17, 2017 4:58:08 AM | 79

Growing pains seem to be a problem for any less advanced country that has kicked off the yolk of a more tech advanced empire.
From everything I can see, the vultures are trying to capatalize on this.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 17, 2017 5:02:24 AM | 80

Brian @ 71: The Gunditjmara people of southwestern Victoria (in southeast Australia) farmed eels with networks of stone walls and dams, channels, canals and weirs, and artificial ponds and wetlands. I'm not sure how long they practised this kind of aquaculture but they could have done this for thousands of years.
http://theconversation.com/the-detective-work-behind-the-budj-bim-eel-traps-world-heritage-bid-71800

Other indigenous Australian groups practised what is known as firestick farming in which they used fire at particular times of the year to burn away leaf litter to enable young shoots to grow and to prevent wildfires. Early European settlers in southeast Australia were impressed by the park-like appearance of the land, not realising that such open spaces had been created by Aboriginal peoples. After Europeans took over these lands, the open grassland areas became forested and wildfires became common occurrences.

Posted by: Jen | Nov 17, 2017 5:29:29 AM | 81

somebody | Nov 17, 2017 4:37:42 AM | 77

I think david is angry at the colossal waste. So am I. The anti-apartheid struggle did NOT achieve its aims and that is the point. We do not have free primary education of any reasonable standard. How can we expect tertiary education to be free? The national/tribal/familial natural resources are in the hands of the colonisers (De Beers Mining is an excellent example) and any attempt to nationalise/tribalise will be followed by Western bombs falling on our heads. We know this very well.

In addition, many a revolution simply end in the original aims being hijacked and subverted. Both SA and Zim are examples. In both counties, to a smaller or larger extent, and in different ways, the poor and whites are being oppressed. This was certainly not the aim of the struggle.

The basic problem is that democracy, as understood in the West, is completely alien to sub-Saharan people. If I may explain at the risk of over-simplifying to the level of parody:

The local cultures have different checks and balances on power in the tribal structures and even a king could be deposed by the Royal family or the People’s Assembly if he transgressed the law. Interestingly enough, these checks and balances are very similar to the checks and balances found in Western legal systems, but the power to wield them lies in a different governmental structure. The impi (military) revolting against a king is not unknown and may be perfectly fine in terms of local culture and indigenous law.

The idea of individual freedom is very strong, but the family is the legal person – roughly like a company – and the family is represented by its head in the governmental structures. Power is very diffused and operates on local/family level. The idea of big centralised government, far from the people, is alien. The government (family head/chief/king) has the responsibility to care for the people (tribe).

Inside a family, the focus is on consensus and harmony. This consensus is, therefore, brought forward by the family head. “One family, one voice.” But the family head, as spokesman, has onerous responsibilities towards the family. One of these would be to ensure the welfare of family members – in a so-called “modern” state, this manifests as nepotism. In the local culture, it cannot be nepotism, as there was no formal employment outside of the family.

The idea of an individual vote is very new and does not “fit” inside the cultural background. There is a strong focus on family and tribe – what Westerners would, condescendingly, call “tribalism.”

The worst aspects of Western style democracy and the worst aspects of indigenous law and culture, unfortunately, lead to horrors like Robert Mugabe as, with the breakdown of tribal structures, ZANU-PF and the ANC have become the “tribe” from which deviation is almost unthinkable. This is Grace Mugabe’s folly: She tried to operate outside of the tribal circle.

In SA’s Western Cape Province, the demographic make-up of the population is different and Western style democracy is more easily attainable and the opposition is strongest in that Province.

I can go on and on about this stuff, but I think I have made my point. Trying to enforce Western style democracy is actually bad for local people as the ruler/president/PM has, first and foremost, a duty to the family and only then to the tribe and never to a different tribe. This is also why aid money goes missing – my family needs to be fed first and there is only a duty of charity towards the “other” family.

There is no good or bad system. Democracy is not automatically “better than any other system”. It needs to work for the particular people. In SA and Zim it is simply not working and trying to force Western style democracy on people is harmful to the very people democracy is supposed to empower.

I do not know what the answers are. I only know that the template that Westerners try to impose on us, does great harm to ordinary people and the vultures are circling with their bags of money or, alternatively, their sanctions and silver birds.

Posted by: E | Nov 17, 2017 6:50:33 AM | 82

Posted by: E | Nov 17, 2017 6:50:33 AM | 82

I do not know what the answers are. I only know that the template that Westerners try to impose on us, does great harm to ordinary people and the vultures are circling with their bags of money or, alternatively, their sanctions and silver birds.

I agree. The military protecting Zimbabwean mines might not be such a bad idea after all.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 17, 2017 8:01:48 AM | 83

Whatever Mugabe's anti-colonial policies and heroism as a freedom fighter he turned out to be a greedy dictator who murdered his political opponents on a big scale.

Posted by: Ray Visino | Nov 17, 2017 7:43:06 PM | 84

@25
wanker, go suck off a monkey

Posted by: brian is a racist cnut | Nov 17, 2017 8:53:12 PM | 85

@85 truth hurts? tough!

Posted by: thirsty | Nov 18, 2017 2:05:52 AM | 86

Thanks B for the posting. I lived in Zimbabwe for 10 years, until early 2017, witnessing the hyper-inflation times, ZANU political violence towards thousands of opponents, the government of national unity post 2008 election of ZANU and main opposition party MDC, the subsequent mistakes and stupidity of the MDC that led to Mugabe's victory in 2015 elections (rigged as well as the previous ones) and the political rise of Grace Mugabe. I see that very few of the people that have commented here refer to any weblink of Zimbabwe's activists or independent journos...
People in Zimbabwe are tired of Mugabe and the majority support change, no matter from where it comes from. Mnangawa and the military are considered as lesser evil, compared to much-hatred Grace Mugabe, considered by many as the responsible for Mugabe's corruption... Poor Zimbos, the military have been ruling the country in the shadows using Mugabe as a puppet, and now that a section of ZANU has tried to propose an alternative (equally vicious and corrupted), they have shown who really rules the country. But the hope of change and people's need of some political joy will not last long. Here some pics of yesterday civil society's demonstration supporting the military for ousting Mugabehttp:kubatana.net/2017/11/18/solidaritymarch-harare-18-november-2017-pictures/?utm_source=Kubatana.net+-+News&utm_campaign=77b33e8c2a-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_11_18&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_39a6c56b7a-77b33e8c2a-132921205

Posted by: Kuerbovich | Nov 18, 2017 9:09:55 AM | 87

[Edit] ▼ Settings Home
4chan
/his/ - History & Humanities
[Post a Reply]
05/04/17 New trial board added: /bant/ - International/Random
10/04/16 New board for 4chan Pass users: /vip/ - Very Important Posts
06/20/16 New 4chan Banner Contest with a chance to win a 4chan Pass! See the contest page for details.
[Hide] [Show All]

Toggle
Meta on /qa/ only.
All meta discussion of boards is to be redirected to /qa/.
[Return] [Catalog] [Bottom]62 / 16 / 34 / 5 [Update] [Auto]
File: mugabe-army-salute.jpg (83 KB, 640x400)
83 KB
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)13:42:06 No.3700660▶>>3700690 >>3700704 >>3700721 >>3701610 >>3701618 >>3701621 >>3701704 >>3702035 >>3702872 >>3703220
>fights against oppressive racist regime
>defeats opposing rebel ussr backed faction
>overthrows said regime through sheer willpower
>becomes president, keeping his position through sly political moves. shepards his countries through the ups and downs of the international economic cycle
>nationalizes the land monopolized by white farmers.
>black farmers naturally were kept in a subordinate position by whitey so they aren't ready to farm yet. still, despite a bumpy start the small tobacco farmers do moderately well after a while
>almost abolishes money through hyperinflation
>serves as a beacon for anti-imperialism across africa, and is present at all conferences to serve as an inspiration to his fellow brother countries, who adore him
>imperialists led by America and IMF plot against him and try to crash his economy with no survivors, he still stands
>wants a younger revolutionary generation to take over his legacy. his wife is the head of this movement
>bitter military old guard chimp out and overthrow him because they want a chance to have prestige for themselves instead of carrying on the ideals of 1980
so why isn't he /ourguy/ again?
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)13:48:51 No.3700690▶>>3702872
>>3700660 (OP) #
Because he's a retard who destroyed his own country through incompetence
Actually, yeah I guess that makes him /our guy/
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)13:52:18 No.3700704▶>>3700712 >>3700723 >>3701595 >>3701691
File: zimbabwe.jpg (458 KB, 1422x719)
458 KB
>>3700660 (OP) #
could you explain his economic theories nice and simple?
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)13:52:47 No.3700707▶
>imperialism
>bad
Shiggery Diggery Doo
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)13:53:03 No.3700708▶>>3700714
Reminder that South Africa would be like Zimbabwe if Mandela hadn't held back the monkeys. Instead it's getting there 25 years later.
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)13:54:25 No.3700712▶
>>3700704 #
abolition of commodity production and the law of value :^)
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)13:54:31 No.3700714▶>>3701609
>>3700708 #
>getting there.
with what? a middle class that is decidedly pro white?
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)13:56:21 No.3700721▶
File: what could have been.png (540 KB, 500x712)
540 KB
>>3700660 (OP) #
>oppressive racist regime
I know this is bait, but I still hope you get run over
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)13:56:29 No.3700723▶
>>3700704 #
people needs to learn to count
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)16:55:22 No.3701595▶
File: 1492437561613.gif (192 KB, 146x114)
192 KB
>>3700704 #
Master plan to make paper easily accessible by making money worth less than the paper it is printed on.
Simply genius.
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)16:58:56 No.3701609▶>>3701613
>>3700714 #
increasing corruption and declining education
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)16:59:14 No.3701610▶>>3702886
>>3700660 (OP) #
Farming is pretty easy. The fact that blacks can't farm a fertile land in 21st century makes them look like subhumans.
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)16:59:36 No.3701613▶
>>3701609 #
pretty much every post colonial state has that
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)17:00:05 No.3701618▶
File: gold.jpg (1.76 MB, 5000x5000)
1.76 MB
>>3700660 (OP) #
>>black farmers naturally were kept in a subordinate position by whitey so they aren't ready to farm yet.
holy shit i know this is bait but ya got me OP
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)17:00:31 No.3701621▶
File: hNP6973.jpg (33 KB, 480x270)
33 KB
>>3700660 (OP) #
>All these ad hoc rationalizations
Marxists are edgy
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)17:01:30 No.3701624▶>>3701663 >>3701671 >>3702026
I mean think about it. No one taught white migrants to Africa how to farm.
Most of them taught themselves by researching and modernized their farms using equipment.

It's not a concept that is too hard to grasp for anyone with an IQ above 85
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)17:10:02 No.3701663▶
>>3701624 #
>with an IQ above 85
Make that 60
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)17:11:21 No.3701671▶
>>3701624 #
Expect that whites moved in Southern Africa before the industrial revolution so they obviously knew how to farm back then.
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)17:16:17 No.3701691▶
>>3700704 #
>a pile of rocks
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)17:18:45 No.3701704▶
>>3700660 (OP) #
>Fight against a freedom supporting prosperous nation
>Overthrows said nation with support from the Brits
>Becomes "President", shepards his country through downs and downs and downs all caused by him
>Kicks out citizens based on ethnicity
>Serves as a beacon to pro-Imperialists as an example of why Imperialism is better for the natives than the natives ruling themselves
>Imperialists led by America try to provide aid and money to his country to stop all his people from starving, he still manages to let them starve
>Military old guard finally off his worthless genocidal ass a bit too late
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)18:42:38 No.3702026▶
>>3701624 #
>nobody teaches you how to farm! it just happens
I have worked on a farm. I can tell you haven't.
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)18:45:07 No.3702035▶>>3702069
>>3700660 (OP) #
>fights against opressive racist regime
So he could create his own oppresive regime
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)18:54:46 No.3702069▶
>>3702035 #
This.

I fucking hated Rhodesiaboos but I'm not going to sit here and pretend that Mugabe's not a pile of shit.

One fucked up government was replaced by another.
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)22:33:23 No.3702831▶
Literally Black Hitler
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)22:41:35 No.3702872▶>>3702911
>>3700690 #
>>3700660 (OP) #
At least he doesn't bow to U.S. and western imperialism and at least Zimbabwe doesn't have a Rothschild bank or they have Soros backed agitators who want to get rid a of an independent socialist state like Zimbabwe, a powerful state free of imperialism and western decadence.
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)22:47:54 No.3702886▶>>3702897
>>3701610 #
If farming was so easy, why did it take thousands of years for anyone to discover it? Besides, other Africans farmed too, it was just the pastoral Bantus in Zimbabwe that didn't know shit.
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)22:51:29 No.3702897▶>>3702921
>>3702886 #
>if reading was so easy, why did it take thousands of years for anyone to discover it
>if basic arithmetic was so easy, why did it take thousands of years for anyone to discover it
>if the wheel was so easy, why did it take thousands of years for anyone to discover it
>if bathing was so easy, why did it take thousands of years for anyone to discover it
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)22:52:23 No.3702900▶
File: blacked.png (963 KB, 990x1146)
963 KB
Robert Mugabe is my hero. A proud TURK who drove the wh*Te subhumans out of Afrika.
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)22:54:31 No.3702906▶>>3702916 >>3702922
File: mugabe is based.jpg (55 KB, 850x400)
55 KB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE-C6tD-yYA [Embed]


I really love Mugabe.
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)22:55:28 No.3702911▶>>3702935 >>3703502
File: mugabe fall.jpg (134 KB, 1280x720)
134 KB
>>3702872 #
>our economy has been in the literal shitter for decades and we've got 80% unemployment, but at least we don't have any westerners or whites r-r-right?
Bet you think North Korea is a workers' paradise too right?
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)22:56:46 No.3702916▶>>3702924
File: mugabe white.png (144 KB, 700x203)
144 KB
>>3702906 #
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)22:57:52 No.3702921▶>>3702930
>>3702897 #
>ignoring everything else I just said

By the way, agriculture and basic counting most likely came before all of that.
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)22:57:56 No.3702922▶
>>3702906 #
based
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)22:59:01 No.3702924▶>>3702929
File: zimbabve gdp.png (20 KB, 654x437)
20 KB
>>3702916 #
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)22:59:18 No.3702925▶>>3702944 >>3703005
He had the chance to have one of the most prosperous countries in Subsuharan Africa. He fucked up royally with his greed, paranoia and hunger for power. He turned the country into a dictatorship, attempted to massacre the Ndebele minority, ruined the military in failed foreign ventures and destroyed the economy.

Bear in mind this is in spite of receiving close to 1 billion dollars in cash grants from the US and UK over a 6 year period (and billions afterwards in food aide) and being given almost an immunity from international sanctions despite human rights abuses.
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)23:01:09 No.3702929▶
>>3702924 #
>economic growth happened when Zimbabwe abandoned their own currency and adopted US western money
So this is the power of Mugabe... woah...
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)23:01:22 No.3702930▶>>3702965
>>3702921 #
>agriculture... most likely came before all of that
Exactly, reread your own argument
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)23:03:20 No.3702935▶>>3702944 >>3702947
>>3702911 #
The economy of Zimbabwe is recovering now. The poor economy was because of the western sanctions on this demonized and vilified socialist country. When you have a country that isn't run by the Rothschilds, they will use economic warfare and sabotage in order to break the will of their government and the people. But the Zimbabweans love their leader and their nation, and they are not going to fall to imperialism so easily. I bet you believe that Assad has to go and the "moderate" rebels are the good guys in Syria. Well like Syria, Mugabe and Zimbabwe have been demonized and vilified by the west.
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)23:07:20 No.3702944▶>>3702967
>>3702935 #
Or maybe its because his socialist policies didn't fucking work and his economy didn't have any growth until he finally started allowing western investment in his country?
Mugabe wasn't even vilified by the West until he started abusing his powers in the 90's like every good dictator and like >>3702925 # said he squandered billions in aid from western nations.

Just because somebody isn't liked by Western powers doesn't automatically make them the good guys, Assad is alright because he's actually fighting ISIS and maintaining a secular dictatorship whereas Mugabe has been batshit for decades and drove out all western influence to appease his retarded war buddies.
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)23:09:54 No.3702947▶>>3702950 >>3702967
>>3702935 #
>poor economy was because of the western sanctions on this demonized and vilified socialist country.

>For more than 30 years, the American people, through USAID, have invested over $2.6 billion in Zimbabwe. Current projects include initiatives to increase food security, support economic resilience, improve health systems and services, and advance a more democratic system of governance.

https://zw.usembassy.gov/embassy/harare/sections-offices/usaid-zimbabwe/

Mugabe is literally on the US payroll. Are Assad and Kim receiving billions of dollars from the US?
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)23:11:40 No.3702950▶>>3703005
>>3702947 #
I always find it funny when people who praise these shitholes for not having western influence always seem to lose track of them taking billions in food and aid from western countries.
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)23:15:49 No.3702965▶
>>3702930 #
My argument is that saying "blacks can't do agriculture because of one country being a colossal failure" is insane. I mean come on, Ethiopia has had a long agriculture tradition, just to name one country.
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)23:16:25 No.3702967▶>>3702975 >>3702991 >>3703000
>>3702944 #
>>3702947 #
Socialism works despite the Soros-Koch funded propaganda against it. Western sanctions are to blame for Zimbabwe and also I forgot to mention that the Whites were also engaging in economic sabotage as well.

And no Assad and Kim are not receiving billions of U.S. dollars because they are independent socialist nations opposing western imperialism. That's same with Zimbabwe. People who are attacking Mugabe as a "dictator" which is not true, he is not a dictator at all. He has been a revolutionary leader since independence and he has created policies that are popular to the masses. They all say that he's a "dictator" and a "despot" and other clichés just so that the Rothschilds can get into their country and ruin Zimbabwe. At least there is peace in Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe is not like Iraq mirrored in war and poverty. Zimbabwe is one of the richest countries in Africa, and like Libya, they are demonizing Zimbabwe because they are independent, just like Syria under Assad and like the DPRK under Kim Jong Un.
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)23:20:01 No.3702975▶>>3703011 >>3703019
File: download.jpg (7 KB, 235x215)
7 KB
>>3702967 #
>it's a retarded trotskyite on the russian payroll episode claiming that only US can be imperialist nation and not acknowledging that Assad is a russian satellite and even helped collaborate with the US during the war in Iraq by getting the US "outsourcing" torture to its country so the CIA doesn't have to do it episode
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)23:28:49 No.3702991▶>>3703019 >>3703063
File: Is this corsican serious.png (36 KB, 130x150)
36 KB
>>3702967 #
>And no Assad and Kim are not receiving billions of U.S. dollars because they are independent socialist nations opposing western imperialism. That's same with Zimbabwe.
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)23:32:18 No.3703000▶>>3703019 >>3703063
File: totally a girl.jpg (36 KB, 607x710)
36 KB
>>3702967 #
>ideology that is opposed to needing any sort of capitalist influence can't handle sanctions that only affect investment from capitalist nations
I'd love to see you try to last a week in Zimbabwe

also your claim about foreign aid is false as fuck you dumb commie
https://psmag.com/news/zimbabwe-in-trouble-as-trump-administration-considers-cutting-foreign-aid
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/880574/Britain-foreign-aid-Zimbabwe-Robert-Mugabe
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)23:34:19 No.3703005▶>>3703063
>>3702950 #
>Western sanctions are to blame for Zimbabwe and also I forgot to mention that the Whites were also engaging in economic sabotage as well

These "sanctions" were only to selling weapons to Zimbabwe and freezing visas and foreign assets of a few government officials. Whats more they only started in 2011 see COUNCIL DECISION 2011/101/CFSP

None of this would tank their economy.

>And no Assad and Kim are not receiving billions of U.S. dollars because they are independent socialist nations opposing western imperialism. That's same with Zimbabwe.

No, Zimbabwe recives billions in aide from the decadent US, UK and EU.

https://zw.usembassy.gov/embassy/harare/sections-offices/usaid-zimbabwe/

>He has been a revolutionary leader since independence and he has created policies that are popular to the masses.

See >>3702925 #

>At least there is peace in Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe is not like Iraq mirrored in war and poverty

Thats because Zimbabwe is in the pocket of the US and the Rothschilds.

Can you tell me Zimbabwe an independent country and enemy of the Rothschilds gets billions of dollars in aide from the US? Why dont other socialist countries get such nice treatment?
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)23:36:53 No.3703011▶>>3703016
>>3702975 #
t. Hillary Clinton
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)23:39:23 No.3703016▶
>>3703011 #
t. retarded ass natbol who can't objectively analyze geopolitics without muh jew soros
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)23:39:42 No.3703019▶>>3703039
>>3702991 #
>>3702975 #
>>3703000 #
three shillbots. this makes me suspicious. update your models, please
>>
Anonymous 11/17/17(Fri)23:51:21 No.3703039▶>>3703063
File: mugabe can't believe your shit.jpg (34 KB, 523x600)
34 KB
>>3703019 #
Mugabe here, stop shilling for me you dumb larping cracker.
Holy fuck I need some lube before the military fucks me up.
>>
Anonymous 11/18/17(Sat)00:02:14 No.3703063▶>>3703073 >>3703086 >>3703673
>>3703039 #
>>3703005 #
>>3703000 #
>>3702991 #
You can be hostile as much as you want to be. The truth is Mugabe is against Western imperialism and thus he should be a friend of ours because he is against the Rothschild funded institutions that wants to see socialism be destroyed in Africa and in around the world. Mugabe like Kim and like Assad in Syria poses a threat to the zionists and the imperialists who are continuing to demonize independent socialist countries. I don't know why you're attacking me and why I'm getting all this hate simply because I am against regime change in Zimbabwe just as how I'm against regime change in Syria because like Assad in Syria Mugabe is being demonized as a "dictator" which is not true he is not a dictator. He is elected by the people every 5 years and he has enjoyed huge popularity in his country. He is just not a dictator. I mean these are the same talking points that was used to take out Saddam and to take out Kadafi in Libya. The truth is Mugabe and Zimbabwe is a misunderstood and demonized country that is against the Western institutions that wants to take him down.
>>
Anonymous 11/18/17(Sat)00:05:25 No.3703073▶
>>3703063 (You) #
how much do you get paid to shill and ignore reality, out of curiosity?
>>
Anonymous 11/18/17(Sat)00:11:17 No.3703079▶
>shepards his countries through the ups and downs of the international economic cycle

thats a nice way to put it

>shits all over his country's economy through sheer stupidity and ignorance
also works

>almost abolishes money through hyperinflation
you got this one right

sorry anon, but someone retarded enough to fuck up his country so bad people resort to digging up rodents for food cannot be /myguy/

>retarded dictatorial mongrel
>our guy
never
>>
Anonymous 11/18/17(Sat)00:13:03 No.3703086▶>>3703163
File: please trust my wife you (...).jpg (18 KB, 360x360)
18 KB
>>3703063 (You) #
>He is elected by the people every 5 years and he has enjoyed huge popularity in his country.
I seriously hope you don't believe this shit, his party (ZANU-PF) has been intimidating, attacking and murdering opposition figures and voters for decades, not to mention his shitty socialist economic policies threw his nation into 90% unemployment and their currency reaching absolutely insane inflation levels to the point of him finally caving in and accepting western money (even after taking billions in western aid over the years).

You can be against intervening in other nations like Iraq and Syria without supporting senile tyrants like Mugabe just because they stood up to the big bad white man, there is absolutely nothing redeemable about his rule especially since he didn't actually maintain any stability in his nation like Saddam, Gaddafi and al-Assad did.
Also he wanted to put his cunt of a wife in charge of the entire nation when her only experience is wasting what little taxpayers can give on overseas shopping sprees and lawsuits for chimping out at people while claiming diplomatic immunity. Fuck Mugabe and anyone who defends him.

Posted by: Em | Nov 18, 2017 11:39:33 AM | 88

Could someone PLEASE remove the huge cut and paste @ 88 by Em from 4chan above? It makes this comment section just a bit tough to follow.

Posted by: Whyawannaknow1 | Nov 18, 2017 12:39:22 PM | 89

@89, I dunno, I find it has some interesting comments, I'd rather it not be erased. The poster decided that pasting them here is a way of archiving them for posterity, I guess, because 4chan usually deletes everything after a short time.

Posted by: .E. | Nov 19, 2017 7:42:50 PM | 90

E@82

You understand the system better than, but you're correct that i am angered at the waste of it all.
Whites are the "big evil" yet all the evidence tells me that the evil apartheid boers treated the locals better than anyone else treated anyone else on the planet.
Compare Sharpeville with Vietnam.
And Sharpeville was one day, one event, that has been used to overshadow millions of rands of development and charity. All to subvert the boers who had the ability to tell to NWO to f-off.
Vorster refused IMF intervention in the new black homelands. That is why he was killed.

Posted by: david | Nov 21, 2017 4:10:58 AM | 91

The comments to this entry are closed.