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August 11, 2017

Open Thread 2017-31

News & views ...

Posted by b on August 11, 2017 at 01:54 PM | Permalink

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And here we go!!!! From the Global Times:

Beijing is not able to persuade Washington or Pyongyang to back down at this time. It needs to make clear its stance to all sides and make them understand that when their actions jeopardize China’s interests, China will respond with a firm hand.

China should also make clear that if North Korea launches missiles that threaten US soil first and the US retaliates, China will stay neutral. If the US and South Korea carry out strikes and try to overthrow the North Korean regime and change the political pattern of the Korean Peninsula, China will prevent them from doing so.

Many people believe the possibility of war is very low. If war really breaks out, the US can hardly reap any strategic harvest and North Korea will face unprecedented risks. North Korea aims to propel the US to negotiate with it, while the US wants to put North Korea in check. Neither can achieve its goal, so they compete to escalate tensions, but neither wants to take the initiative to launch a war.

The real danger is that such a reckless game may lead to miscalculations and a strategic “war.” That is to say, neither Washington nor Pyongyang really wants war, but a war could break out anyway as they do not have the experience of putting such an extreme game under control.

Posted by: woogs | Aug 11, 2017 2:29:18 PM | 1

That Tarmac Meet Up to discuss the grandchildren just keeps on giving:

Clinton-Lynch Tarmac Scandal Linked Directly to Obama – Trump’s Lawyer Confirmed

Jay Sekulow of the American Center for Law & Justice – who is now an attorney for President Donald J. Trump – made a shocking accusation on his Tuesday radio show. He said he has discovered an email that connects the Bill Clinton and Loretta Lynch tarmac meeting scandal directly to the Obama White House.

We’re learning more about this meeting, and it’s clear it was the point in which the Clintons were able to avoid criminal prosecution charges, which once seemed likely.

This is a stunning development, as Obama Administration alumni are denying involvement and are trying to protect their legacy. After all, their efforts didn’t work out as planned and Trump won the election despite this extraordinary level of corruption on behalf of Hillary Clinton’s campaign.

Watch as Sekulow explains the email, and then plays a clip of former Press Secretary Josh Earnest denying any involvement. Sekulow’s leadership position in the Trump legal team means these details are more than just rumors:

~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Yes, Trump won the election and promptly said “they are good people.”
But there are times good people do evil. I have a question for AG Sessions. What’s the delay or did you recuse yourself?
Little people face forfeiture of assets. Big powerful ones get to accumulate with a jail-free card.

Posted by: likklemore | Aug 11, 2017 2:32:45 PM | 2

@1 woogs.... i appreciated the history lesson from debs is dead on the other thread... from wikipedia "During the Spanish–American War, the United States captured Guam on June 21, 1898. Under the Treaty of Paris, Spain ceded Guam to the United States on December 10, 1898."

pawns on a chess board... the usa has it's tentacles all over the globe... military might makes right apparently... sure looks like one big monopoly board where the ones at the center of the ponzi scheme reap the pillage, while the planet continues to suffer by and large...

must keep the economy jumped up on war, and the threat of war..nothing serves the interests of the financial and military industry, not to mention the oil industry nearly as well... feeding people and helping one another out? fuck that shit...

Posted by: james | Aug 11, 2017 2:42:11 PM | 3

@2.. I'm beginning to think that 'they' are all in on it. All of them...... Clintons, Putin, Assad, Trump, China, Korea, India, Pakistan, Iraq.... All of them..... Things at least make sense that way.... in a sense anyways. Makes one wonder if their is really even a point to all the disconcertion on this and other pages online is worth it eh..

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Aug 11, 2017 2:42:33 PM | 4

i see pat had another one of his minor tantrums, lol...

Posted by: james | Aug 11, 2017 2:43:16 PM | 5

James@3: what i got from the semi-official pronouncement in the Global Times piece was that China has set the goalposts for its response regarding the US/North Korea spat. It's actually quite bold.

Posted by: woogs | Aug 11, 2017 3:10:28 PM | 6

The Russiagate Conspiracy Theory Is Crumbling
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/russiagate-conspiracy-theory-crumbling/ri20660

Posted by: Anoui | Aug 11, 2017 3:13:42 PM | 7

woogs and james
One of the reasons the U S rolled out against Spain esp. in the Phillipines was to hold a key position in readiness for a 'rising China ' over the next century . Gives perspective on the present power plays !

Posted by: ashley albanese | Aug 11, 2017 4:11:45 PM | 8

@james #5

The high regard which Col Pat Mustard is held by many here is, as I said earlier on another thread, a complete mystery to me.

Heres his latest "analysis"

     1- The judgment that North Korea now possesses miniaturized nuclear weapons is now a US IC consensus judgment.  Anyone who thinks that CIA likes agreeing with ANY DIA judgment knows nothing of the US intelligence community.

    2.  The hypocrisy  of many of the comments on SST concerning this crisis is surprising to me even after 12 years of this,  The absurdity of thinking that all states are equal in weight and responsibility in the world is just foolish and ahistorical.   The deep anti-Americanism of many in the commentariat on SST is sad.  It is especially sad in being expressed by people whose countries have long been the beneficiaries of US protection.  It should be acceptable to the US that North Korea should "demonstrate" the ability to deliver a nuclear weapon to Guam?  How absurd!  Would those who think that so be accepting if the North Koreans demonstrated the same ability to deliver a warhead  into the English Channel, the North Sea or off the coast of British Columbia?

    3.  I think not.  The countries so threatened would run to NATO and beg for US protection. 

    4.  Ah, I forgot, the evilness of the US justifies anything.  pl

The man is clearly a bit of an idiot if he expects anyone but a fellow 2nd rate retard to swallow that nonsensical train of alleged "logic" whereby he arrives at the conclusion that NK poses a real viable threat to the US, one the actually needs to be military reacted to asap.

Basically the idiot is saying that because CIA agree with DIA on these mini-nuke claims, is cast iron proof of the veracity of those claims.

Why?

Cos CIA never agrees with DIA, therefore when they do it must be true!

Utterly retarded circular "reasoning".

How Lang is viewed with anything other than complete derision is a mystery

Posted by: Just Sayin' | Aug 11, 2017 4:47:40 PM | 9

@ashley 8

Indeed - though it seems this long-term perspective got lost at some point, or why did the US give up its huge Philippines base? Is there anything from the time of the Spanish-American war backing this up btw?

Something else:

I do find it quite intriguing how Pyongyang managed to draw Guam into the equation. If this is maintained, it might refocus the debate and draw attention away from the SCS and towards US assets in Asia. Already a lot of people start asking, why on earth such a huge base on a remote tropical island...? This does make criticism of China over the SCS bases a lot more difficult.

China now stated that it doesn't want regime change, so it won't happen. At least not by the US.
If Washington doesn't understand this, Beijing will start upping the pressure.

Posted by: smuks | Aug 11, 2017 4:50:46 PM | 10

WTF IS A "PREEMPTIVE STRIKE" ON NORTH KOREA?

CNN speculates on nuclear war:

The last resort: How a US strike on North Korea could play out - Zachary Cohen, August 11, 2017

Washington (CNN) It's the no-win situation that can only be imagined by US military officials tasked with preparing for a worst-case scenario -- conducting a preemptive strike on North Korea.

But what is this supposed "preemptive strike on North Korea?"

1) A nuclear or conventional strike to destroy North Korea's nuclear deterrence?

Wikipedia defines a "pre-emptive nuclear strike" as follows:

In nuclear strategy, a first strike is a preemptive surprise attack employing overwhelming force. First strike capability is a country's ability to defeat another nuclear power by destroying its arsenal to the point where the attacking country can survive the weakened retaliation while the opposing side is left unable to continue war. The preferred methodology is to attack the opponent's strategic nuclear weapon facilities (missile silos, submarine bases, bomber airfields), command and control sites, and storage depots first.

This is highly unlikely, as North Korea's nuclear missiles are all mobile. It would be impossible to know the location each and every launcher before the strike. Making missiles mobile is the normal anti-first-strike countermeasure, as it allows North Korea to launch a retaliatory "countervalue" second-strike.

2) Attack North Korean defenses?

This is not a pre-emptive or even preventative strike, as it is not targeted at North Korean offensive capabilities. The only purpose of such a strike can be escalation. Either a) it is a start of a long campaign that ends is a full land invasion of North Korea, similar to the US actions against Iraq from 1990 to 2003, or b) the planners of the operation hope for a North Korean retaliation that will allow the US to respond with even greater aggression.

This is exactly what is planned, at least according to the CNN article:

The operation would likely include several strategies aimed to neutralize North Korea's defensive and counterstrike capabilities.

Countering North Korea's relatively formidable surface-to-air missile defense capabilities, stealth American F-22s, F-35s and B-2 bombers would likely lead a joint air campaign with the help of Japanese and South Korean F-15 or F-16 fighters, he said.

There are a three ways North Korea can respond to an US attack:

1) Demonstrate and test its nuclear deterrence. The first step might be a test of North Korea's alleged thermonuclear warhead at full fission-fusion-fission power. This might for example take the form of launching a fully armed ICBM at some designated test area near the Antarctic.

2) Launch attacks at "soft" targets. This might include nuclear strikes at US allies that participate in the US attacks on North Korea or who allow the US to launch attacks at North Korea from their territory.

3) Nuclear strike at US military bases.

The exact form of retaliation will depend on the size of the US attack. a "symbolic" attack will generate a symbolic response.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Aug 11, 2017 5:00:00 PM | 11

@10
You completly missed the intent of the Chinese statement

Its a clearly just as much a message to the idiot Korean wunderkind to quit the missile BS.

Beijing doesn't want to up any pressure, far from it, The exact opposite in fact.

China clearly thinks both the US and the gurning NK wunderkind puppen-kopf are both deliberately and unessecarily upping tension in the region. And now loudly tells both of them to quit it.

Pity they didn't just come straight out and accuse them both of being in cahoots

Posted by: Just Sayin' | Aug 11, 2017 5:05:31 PM | 12


https://www.n2yo.com/satellite/?s=41332
KMS-4 (Kwangmyongsong-4 meaning Bright Star-4 or Lodestar-4 in Korean) is an earth observation satellite launched by North Korea on 7 February 2016. The launch happened after North Korea conducted a nuclear test on 6 January 2016.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-satelitte-missiledefense-idUSKCN0VJ2PD
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A satellite put into orbit by North Korea at the weekend does not appear to be transmitting, but it is worrying that the rocket that took it there delivered twice the payload of Pyongyang's previous launch, the head of the U.S. Army's Missile Defense Command said on Wednesday.

https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Baker-Statement-5-13-EMP.pdf
Misconception C: Megaton-class nuclear weapons are required to cause serious EMP
effects. “Entry-level,” kiloton-class weapons will not produce serious effects.
Due to a limiting atmospheric saturation effect in the EMP generation process, low
yield weapons produce peak E1 fields of the same order of magnitude as large yield
weapons if they are detonated at altitudes in the 50-80 km range. The advantage of high
yield weapons is that their field on the ground is attenuated less significantly at larger
heights of burst (that expose larger areas of the Earth’s surface.
Nominal weapons with yields ranging from 3
kilotons to 3 megatons (a 3 order of magnitude difference in yield), exhibit a range of peak
E1 fields on the ground with only a factor of 3 difference, i.e. 15kV/meter vs. 50 kV/meter.
Although E3 fields vs. yield and height of burst are not illustrated above, a 30 kiloton
nuclear weapon detonated above 100 km can cause magnetic field disturbances as large as
solar superstorms, although over smaller regions.

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/7301-400-chernobyls-solar-flares-electromagnetic-pulses-and-nuclear-armageddon
A "successful" EMP attack launched against the US would most likely result in the immediate collapse of the grid across roughly 50 percent of the country, a stock market crash and critical failures in many affected areas' electronic systems that control nuclear reactors, chemical plants, telecommunications systems and industrial processes. These systems include programmable logic controllers (PLC), digital control systems (DCS), and supervisory control and data acquisition systems (SCADA).

A powerful EMP from a sub-orbital nuclear detonation would cause extreme electromagnetic effects, starting with an initial, short-duration, "speed of light" pulse, referred to as an "E1" effect, followed by a middle-duration pulse called an "E2" effect, followed by a longer-duration disturbance known as an "E3" effect. The "E1" effect lasts a few nanoseconds and is similar to massive discharges of electrostatic sparks, which are particularly damaging to digital microelectronic chips used in most modern electronic equipment.

Nuclear power plants are designed to disconnect automatically from the grid in the event of a local power failure or major grid anomaly; once disconnected, they begin the process of shutting down the reactor's core.

Since spent fuel ponds typically hold far greater quantities of highly radioactive material then the active nuclear reactors locked inside reinforced containment vessels, they clearly present far greater potential for the catastrophic spread of highly radioactive contaminants over huge swaths of land, polluting the environment for multiple generations. A study by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) determined that the "boil down time" for spent fuel rod containment ponds runs from between 4 and 22 days after loss of cooling system power before degenerating into a Fukushima-like situation, depending upon the type of nuclear reactor and how recently its latest batch of fuel rods had been decommissioned.

Posted by: Perimetr | Aug 11, 2017 5:09:40 PM | 13

Political leaders in the US are, for certain, craven (money grubbers). They are also warmongering idiots OR they are continually presenting themselves as idiots as a strategy in an effort to appeal to their base (audience) which is certainly comprised of many genuine idiots (not faking idiocy).

Posted by: fast freddy | Aug 11, 2017 5:13:01 PM | 14

Defence stocks surge to all-time high


-----------

I see the resident nuke-head cricle-jerkers are still furiously jerking it, above


Posted by: Just Sayin' | Aug 11, 2017 5:16:49 PM | 15

One of the things I like about Lang's board is he doesn't allow troll kids to run amok. On the other hand, his over-reactive and self-righteous tendencies can be a real impediment to good dialogue.

Posted by: Haasan | Aug 11, 2017 6:34:08 PM | 16

Why do people say that a conclusion or inference they disagree with is 'sad'?

Sometimes truths sadden us the worst, for the very reason they are true.

Posted by: Charles R | Aug 11, 2017 6:52:42 PM | 17

So Trump needs congressional approval for a pre-emptive strike and China says it will act on behalf of NK in this event, but will not defend NK if they strike first. Obviously, conditions are ripe for a false flag to eliminate the need for congressional approval and get China to stand down. NK will be blamed for whatever happens, and perhaps Russia as well (2 birds with one stone, heck maybe throw in Iran for good measure)

Trump needs this, the Military Industrial Security Complex want it, international Banksters dream of it, the War Hawks among both parties demand it , the voyeurs in Europe and elsewhere will go along as always if they get a piece of the booty. And summer vacations are winding down , so its time. Perhaps after labor day like 9/11, maybe before. Fasten your seat belts and enjoy the show

Heck, maybe even Kim and his Generals want it so will play their part in return for riches and a new identity in some paradise. Like leaders in the Soviet and China realized in 1989, they can do better and live like the elite in the West.

Posted by: Pft | Aug 11, 2017 7:05:57 PM | 18

I was obliquely critical about Col. Pat here about six months ago, and this got somebody mad about it. I really think that the Col. has the kind of patriotic approach that used to be much more prevalent 50 years ago. It has taken me about 2/3rds of my life to come "out of orbit" from such a patriotic approach. It's a bit shocking to encounter such an individual today. I guess there are still some who did not make the painful journey that I did. It's hard for me to understand at this point.

Posted by: blues | Aug 11, 2017 7:17:55 PM | 19

smuks 10
It was not just the U S in the late nineteenth century - the Brits wherever possible privelaged Malay interests over Chinese in S E ASIA .
Tho U S interests no longer seem totally dominante in the Phillipines that is probably not for want of trying .

Posted by: ashley albanese | Aug 11, 2017 7:20:12 PM | 20

@16

Col Pat Mustard doesn't brook any dissent whatsoever, from the little I have seen of his "work". That speaks more to his obvious small mindedness and insecurity than anything else. .

This is hardly surprising in an individual so obviously ill- accustomed to producing anything remotely resembling an original thought, let alone enlightening analysis

Calling him 2nd rate is probably something of a compliment, in truth

Posted by: Just Sayin' | Aug 11, 2017 7:25:56 PM | 21

The N. Korean statement concerning Guam was intended not as a threat but as a way to communicate and clarify the current situation. Most Western media were making wild claims of hitting the US mainland. The US military on the other hand doubted both N.Korean missile accuracy and range - inadequate information that could easily lead to the US over-estimating its' ability and under-estimating N. Korean ability. The statement made clear that what N. Korea has in fact is an intermediate range weapon, capable of reaching Guam. It also communicated a degree of relative accuracy, in that they trusted they could 'bracket' the Island and stay outside of any territorial or maritime zone the US would claim as its' own - thus avoiding any direct attack on the US or its' "interests". They also implicitly 'dared' Japan to shoot the missiles down when they published the path they would take - does N. Korea have some sort of electronic counter-measure to protect themselves? How much is fact and how much is bluff. Up until now all statements from N. Korea concerning their missile prowess have proven true. This statement was made to give US military planners pause to think.. and think again.

They also made clear that should the US attack, any purely military target (like Guam) inside that range would be a target.

Having made such a claim, it would seem that N.Korea might have set the pre-condition for negotiation. A series of failed launches and dubious distance records is hardly a platform for any kind of negotiation. This is their way of saying we can really make you hurt so treat us with some respect and we can do a deal.

Posted by: les7 | Aug 11, 2017 7:52:28 PM | 22

I have yet to see any mention, in the American corporate media, of this fact:

http://zeenews.india.com/world/us-rejects-chinese-proposal-to-reduce-tension-with-north-korea_1984772.html

Leads one to believe the U$A has no intention of dialog, they want confrontation. Morons..

Posted by: ben | Aug 11, 2017 8:07:22 PM | 23

@6 woogs.. yes, i agree and i see this mostly as just sayin' has pointed out on another thread - usa has reigning in china as the main goal here..

@8 ashley. that makes sense to me.

@9 just sayin' regarding pat lang - he is pretty old school.. kinda like fighting the good fight from a long time ago - which some are still doing - living mostly in the past as i see it. i mostly agree with you @21, and see it much like @16 Haasan as well...

@19 blues.. thanks for sharing your perspective.. i and others typically get shot down by pl for being anti-american... when a country and it's people are propagandized to the degree i seem to believe they are, it is a typical knee jerk reaction to refer to anyone who sees it differently as 'anti-american'.. it essentially shuts the conversation down when that label is tossed out - much like anti-semitism does for most... i am not buying it.. i would like to see the usa succeed as a country and people, but i don't know how they can if they continue on in the trajectory they have been going in for a long time now.. it has only gotten worse!

@23 ben.. the link is from march 2017... i think it has been modified somewhat!

Posted by: james | Aug 11, 2017 8:39:39 PM | 24

us state dept daily press briefing from yesterday - mostly all on north korea..

https://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2017/08/273325.htm

Posted by: james | Aug 11, 2017 8:50:41 PM | 25

Just Sayin' | Aug 11, 2017 7:25:56 PM | 21

Lang and his site have always left me underwhelmed actually...

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 11, 2017 8:56:38 PM | 26

As if any more evidence was required proving the Democrat Party corrupt beyond corrupt, more is now revealed from the lawsuit filed in July 2016 in Florida alleging civil fraud. The linked article lays it all out quite well:

"The DNC charter is fairly explicit. Article V, Section 4 says: 'In the conduct and management of the affairs and procedures of the Democratic National Committee, particularly as they apply to the preparation and conduct of the Presidential nomination process, the Chairperson shall exercise impartiality and evenhandedness as between the Presidential candidates and campaigns.'

"The charter goes on to state: 'The Chairperson shall be responsible for ensuring that the national officers and staff of the Democratic National Committee maintain impartiality and evenhandedness during the Democratic Party Presidential nominating process.'

"DNC emails that reached the public a year ago show direct and purposeful violations of those DNC rules."

At the trial:

"When compelled to respond at a hearing in U.S. District Court in southern Florida on April 25, the DNC’s legal team came up with a revealing defense — claiming that the DNC has a right to be unfair during the presidential nominating process."

DNC Charter be damned it seems. https://consortiumnews.com/2017/08/11/lawsuit-challenges-dnc-anti-sanders-bias/


Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 11, 2017 10:03:26 PM | 27

An argument can be made that the strategic leader in the Korean situation is actually North Korea. Such an argument is made in this analysis at Strategic Culture: Avoiding Nuclear War: Why Kim Jong-Un’s Strategy Makes Sense - by Federico Pieraccini

The author illustrates the relationship between NK and China, particularly the fact that NK shares a border with China, which provides a valuable security advantage for China, and is therefore worth a lot. He examines the Kim strategy since 2009 of building conventional weapons to hold over Seoul's head while concurrently creating nuclear weapons both to keep the foreign aggressor at bay, and also to scare China with the prospect that Japan and South Korea must eventually be goaded into acquiring their own nuclear weapons for parity.

NK is the variable playing with the parities of the region, the tail wagging several dogs, including South Korea - and especially forcing China to reprimand NK while at the same time being impelled quietly to support its position. There are many collateral realities understood by all nations in the region, but not necessarily spoken of, and certainly beyond the grasp of the US leadership.

The article is worth adding to your Korea toolkit, in my estimation.

And maybe North Korea wags the US dog also? Pepe Escobar today calls the play as revealing that the empire has no clothes: Is North Korea Showing the Emperor is Naked?. More here also in support of NK's long term ploy to drive a wedge between South Korea and the US.

Posted by: Grieved | Aug 11, 2017 10:06:30 PM | 28

I get the impression too many links in a post can sandbox it, so I'll add add this last paragraph seprately.

More on Korea. Some may be unimpressed with Alexander Mercouris, but I find he does an excellent job of marshaling facts, concepts, timelines and likelihoods, and with a lawyer's precision. He's a useful place to keep abreast of developments, plots and theories. He has a nice backgrounder today on NK and China as the "Unhappiest of Allies", as well as a stab at trying to figure what the hell Trump thinks he's about, and also the latest news (from AP) that the US and NK are already talking in a back channel at the UN.

All in all, all seems well with the North Korean "crisis that roared".

Posted by: Grieved | Aug 11, 2017 10:11:15 PM | 29

Grieved | Aug 11, 2017 10:11:15 PM | 29

I have found both Mercouris and Pieraccini to be reliable sources; generally factual and accurate.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 11, 2017 10:37:15 PM | 30

james @ 24: I heard today they are in " back channel " talks, if true, it's a step in the right direction, however, still no mention of any kind of talks in the U$ corporate media.

Thanks..

Posted by: ben | Aug 11, 2017 11:05:43 PM | 31

Grieved @28--

Thanks for pointing to Pieraccini's essay, which was very good, although he excluded Russia's stake in the affair. For many of the same reasons, Japan must seriously rethink its relationship with the Outlaw US Empire; if it were to establish normal relations with China, Russia and North Korea, it might finally be able to extract itself from its deflationary morass.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 11, 2017 11:08:22 PM | 32

This article is from May of this yr., but, still highly relevant..

http://www.globalresearch.ca/what-the-corporate-media-never-tells-you-about-north-korea/5587728

An excerpt:

"Do you know that North Korea has repeatedly asked the US to engage in bilateral talks, to cool off the ever-escalating tension? The offer was flatly rejected by both Obama and Trump."

Posted by: ben | Aug 11, 2017 11:17:15 PM | 33

"Only Morons Believe What The US Government Says About North Korea"
By Daniel McAdams

From Information Clearing House..

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/47589.htm

Posted by: ben | Aug 11, 2017 11:29:10 PM | 34

Grieved@29 - The only thing I disagree with in Mercouris' Korean articles on TheDuran is how he interprets the supposed plans by North Korea to fire missiles near Guam. In BREAKING: China says it will defend North Korea in event of US invasion, he paraphrases one part of the Global Times statement of a Chinese response as:

"...In other words if North Korea is so stupid as to launch an unprovoked attack on the US – which in this context probably covers the wild and reckless North Korean threat to launch a missile demonstration against Guam – it is on its own..."

I'm kind of surprised he is so quick to consider the North Korean missile 'demonstration' or whatever it is as an unprovoked attack on the US. Guam's territorial waters extend 20 km off it's shores. 30 - 40 km puts the missiles well into international waters. Provocative and ill-advised? Sure. But a lawyer would be the first to point out that it's not an attack on US or Guam 'soil' and it's not even in Guam territorial waters. What if North Korea said 100 km off of Guam? Or 1000 km? At what point is near Guam not Guam? International convention says beyond 12 miles or 20 km is no longer Guam territory. As long as North Korea doesn't go fishing 40 km away (not sure how far the economic zone goes) then North Korean military live-fire exercises are legal.

This is not a trivial question. We already know the US will consider any missile aimed within, probably, hundreds of km of Guam an attack. But will China necessarily have the same opinion?

Say unarmed missiles are actually launched (which is far from certain) and they land 100 km away from Guam. China will condemn the action, but they MIGHT say it was too far to be considered anything but a provocation and cannot be considered an 'attack' on the US. I know the US will think otherwise, but the US opinion is immaterial here. It only matters what China thinks about a US response. If they think a US counter-strike is over-reacting and unjustified, then they might intervene militarily to prevent the US from doing anything against North Korea.

Plenty of if's and but's here based on less-than-official statements, but there may be some rationale to North Korea's actions. It begs the question of who gets to judge which acts of provocation by either side cross the line into being considered the equivalent of an actual attack. The latest round of squawking came about because the US conducted simulated B-1B attacks on North Korea just outside it's borders. Legal and the US announced the exercise beforehand. North Korea missile 'demonstration'? Legal as far as I can tell and North Korea announced (kind of) that they had no intention of actually striking Guam. The US objection will be based on our general demand (and UN insistence) that North Korea stop conducting missile tests.

I'm certainly not advocating a North Korean demonstration, but the US might be kind of screwed here. It may - at least in the eyes of China - not automatically be a green light for the US to attack. We may, alternatively, just lob a few cruise missiles into North Korea to punish them without invading. That will undoubtedly draw some kind of military response by them, which will quickly spiral out of control. China WILL be forced to intervene at that point, and it won't be to help the US.

Posted by: PavewayIV | Aug 12, 2017 12:46:01 AM | 35

This would seem relevant;
The Shore and the Sea by James Thurber
A single excited lemming started the exodus, crying, "Fire!" and running toward the sea. He may have seen the sunrise through the trees, or waked from a fiery nightmare, or struck his head against a stone, producing stars. Whatever it was, he ran and ran, and as he ran he was joined by others, a mother lemming and her young, a nightwatchlemming on his way home to bed, and assorted revelers and early risers.
[Pg 173]
"The world is coming to an end!" they shouted, and as the hurrying hundreds turned into thousands, the reasons for their headlong flight increased by leaps and bounds and hops and skips and jumps.
"The devil has come in a red chariot!" cried an elderly male. "The sun is his torch! The world is on fire!"
"It's a pleasure jaunt," squeaked an elderly female.
"A what?" she was asked.
"A treasure hunt!" cried a wild-eyed male who had been up all night. "Full many a gem of purest ray serene the dark unfathomed caves of ocean bear."
"It's a bear!" shouted his daughter. "Go it!" And there were those among the fleeing thousands who shouted "Goats!" and "Ghosts!" until there were almost as many different alarms as there were fugitives.
One male lemming who had lived alone for many years refused to be drawn into the stam[Pg 174]pede that swept past his cave like a flood. He saw no flames in the forest, and no devil, or bear, or goat, or ghost. He had long ago decided, since he was a serious scholar, that the caves of ocean bear no gems, but only soggy glub and great gobs of mucky gump. And so he watched the other lemmings leap into the sea and disappear beneath the waves, some crying "We are saved!" and some crying "We are lost!" The scholarly lemming shook his head sorrowfully, tore up what he had written through the years about his species, and started his studies all over again.
MORAL: All men should strive to learn before they die what they are running from, and to, and why.

And this from Newsweek;
https://www.yahoo.com/news/newsweek-exclusive-north-korean-missile-163255839.html

NK missiles a hoax. How about them apples?

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 12, 2017 1:47:02 AM | 36

Tensions on the Korean peninsula could at any given time completely be relieved if the biggest purveyor of war aggression of the current time would simply respect international law, stop provocations and went home. Through economic warfare and sedition it has devastated countless of countries with their only crime of wanting some independence, Venezuela again the victim now as we speak. Militarily countless of other countries have been bombed and destroyed, the most recent examples Libya and Syria. The US has no business in Asia. Everyone knows that the war simulations are provocations that at any moment can mutate in actual attacks and are intended to elicit certain reactions from the threatened sovereign nation. The escalations the US is trying to provoke are in reality directed against China whose economic clout is surpassing that of the US.

Posted by: xor | Aug 12, 2017 2:50:10 AM | 37

No, this is enough for me on Trump, now he begin to threat Venezuela:

Donald Trump threatens Venezuela with 'military option'
http://www.smh.com.au/world/donald-trump-threatens-venezuela-with-military-option-20170811-gxurvy.html

This is a madman, he had his chances but he's a complete idiot and dangerous.

Posted by: Anoynmous | Aug 12, 2017 3:35:08 AM | 38

^ Can you say 25th Amendment? Trump's a madman and possibly being given enough rope to hang himself.
I smell a set-up (I hope); but Pense? Possibly more rational, but clearly a wack job as well.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 12, 2017 4:23:56 AM | 39

V.Arnold

Pence is even worse, a classic ignorant neocon, probably one of the reason why Trump is getting more hawkish to begin with.

Posted by: Anoynmous | Aug 12, 2017 4:32:25 AM | 40

Anoynmous

Hm, hadn't thought of that.
My link above to a Newsweek (ya, ya, I know) article is an interesting read; two rocket experts (one I'm familiar with, Ted Postol), is definitely a credible authority on ballistic missiles; worth a read.
The article claims NK weapons are a hoax; especially the rockets.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 12, 2017 4:48:38 AM | 41

James Damore: "This Is Why I Was Fired By Google"

"....We all have moral preferences and beliefs about how the world is and should be. Having these views challenged can be painful, so we tend to avoid people with differing values and to associate with those who share our values. This self-segregation has become much more potent in recent decades. We are more mobile and can sort ourselves into different communities; we wait longer to find and choose just the right mate; and we spend much of our time in a digital world personalized to fit our views...."

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-11/james-damore-explains-why-i-was-fired-google

Without getting into the gritty, nitty James well-researched paper, I very much agreed with him.

At this juncture of my life, I'm bias like every human I came across after suffering a lifetime of prejudice and dishonesty from people in all walks of life. I particularly dislike politicians who lied repeatedly to its citizens who could make a difference in our lives. These politicians lied repeatedly and reenforced by MSM pundits further the lies to advances their self-interests without thinking the consequences to the public at large.

What does MoA think?

Posted by: OJS | Aug 12, 2017 6:23:40 AM | 42

What does MoA think?

I have no idea; nor should I...
But, I did see an extensive interview with Steven somebody and the Google employee; and it was clear Google fucked up. The names escape me at this moment...
I do not support Google, Yahoo, or whomever.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Aug 12, 2017 6:37:28 AM | 43

42

Yep, it is a funny case of a blind spot. Because he cannot work with women as equals he feels discriminated by people who think they can.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 12, 2017 7:51:39 AM | 44

Analysis
11 August 2017
North Korea’s “not quite” ICBM can’t hit the lower 48 states
Theodore A. PostolMarkus Schiller Robert Schmucker

please read this article, it is the source of Newsweek article
i hate to see expert scientific analysis dumbed-down

http://thebulletin.org/north-korea%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Cnot-quite%E2%80%9D-icbm-can%E2%80%99t-hit-lower-48-states11012

Posted by: mauisurfer | Aug 12, 2017 8:43:48 AM | 45

The CFR deep state media exposed in one graph, nice: https://cfrmedia.com/

Posted by: msb | Aug 12, 2017 8:59:04 AM | 46

"Blues" @ 19 -

Being a patriot is simply a matter of wishing to see one's community or nation prosper and of wishing to see that community properly defended. You can be a patriot and still be critical of those running your country.

In fact at present, if one does wish to see one's community prosper, and if one does wish to see the community properly defended, it's impossible not to be critical of those running it. That's the case in your country and mine.

So it's OK to be a patriot and to be highly critical of your government. It's OK for others to be patriots too, and on the same terms.


On Trump, he's a wild card and could go in just about any direction. He tends to pick up or intuit the opinions of those surrounding him and to reflect those opinions. When he was on the stump he picked up the general discontent with current politics and articulated that discontent. Now he's ensconced in Washington DC he's picking up the consensus there and is tending to articulate that. Which is bad news for those of us, and not just in the States, who aren't very impressed with that consensus.

Therefore one hopes he gets reminded that there are still people outside Washington who are just as dissatisfied with the way they're governed now as they were in 2016.

Otherwise he'll end up as Obama II. Lots of nice-sounding hope and change stuff at the beginning. Almost immediately the swamp enfolded him in its embrace. By the end all that was left of the original Obama was a charismatic spokesman for the Beltway. You surely don't want a re-run of that?

Posted by: EnglishOutsider | Aug 12, 2017 9:13:54 AM | 47

The dprk story was sitting around before it was teed up, you don't develop such things in a day or learn about them overnight.

It was teed up when the Washington Times wanted it. Not fake news but definitely planted and planned.

Same with Venezuela. They played lets ask an idiot a question and they got an answer to go berzerk all weekend over.

Posted by: deekrut | Aug 12, 2017 9:43:39 AM | 48


Has Narenda Modi Switched Sides?

"It’s very discomforting to see the nation of India, one of the great potential leading countries of the world systematically self-destruct. Provoking a new war with China over remote chunks of land in the high Himalayas where the borders of China’s Tibet Autonomous Region converge with India and the Kingdom of Bhutan, is only the latest example. The question posed is who or what grand design is behind India’s foreign and domestic policies under Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

Has Modi switched sides? If so to whom?"

-------------------------

Right now China currently faces the prospect of a war with India on it's Western border, and on it's Eastern border we have the gurning idiot wunderkind playing a game of chicken, with the US, involving missiles.


This game of chicken the idiot gurning wunderkind is playing now gives the US complete post-facto justification for it's earlier decision to install THAAD system missiles in South Korea. Prior to this gurning-idiot-wunderkind-provided THAAD-justification, the Empire was having a hard time convincing any but the most gullible that its decision to install the THAAD system was aimed at anyone other than China.

Now the gurning idiot wunderkind has so generously provided them with all the justification they could possibly have ever desired.

If the Chinese have any sense, they surely must be wondering just who the idiot wunderkind is actually working for.

Posted by: Just Sayin' | Aug 12, 2017 10:01:40 AM | 49

A few reports around that South Korea is starting to move away from the US now they realize they are just collateral damage in a war between the US and NK. Also reports US military has not put anything in readiness for a strike on NK
With the threats of military action in Venezuela, Peru is making a move with the South american countries to condemn any US action, whereas some of these were on board with the sanctions. Europe pissed off with the latest lot of anti Russia sanctions Trump signed.
Seems the best way for one man to break up the US empire and the globalists.
Unless war breaks out, it seems Trump is using a bit of reality TV experience to break up the US empire.

I see Pat Lang has allowed one comment at SST since shutting it down. This is it...
"We need to destroy that country. Now. No thirty Tomahawks. Use nukes and do it right."

The sooner the US collapses, is destroyed, broken up, the better. Their culture of of exceptionalism and arrogance has to be destroyed.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Aug 12, 2017 10:24:22 AM | 50

To Just Saying: the Colonel has forgotten more about this intelligence business than you or I will ever know. Perhaps you might stop "talking shit" about him and get to the issues.

Posted by: Morongobill | Aug 12, 2017 10:44:04 AM | 52

March 2015. Re. Benghazi and other, it is revealed that Killary had a ‘secret’ private basement-server with no security and used it for official biz. She hardly ever used Gvmt. matériel / accounts / security. The FBI investigates, a jagged incomprehensible fakey surface drama unfolds and meanders on till this day — involving Comey, Bill Clinton, Lynch, Trump, Congress, etc. Covering up for Killary creates a scramble.. Official enquiries limp or are snuffed out. Huma Abedin’s emails were sent to her home and these ended up on a laptop belonging to her hubby Anthony Weiner (convicted sexter) and are now in legal limbo, nobody knows what is on there. The original Guccifer, a Romanian taxi driver, Lazar, now in prison in Romania, was accused (much later) of hacking into Killary’s server, he has denied it, there is no evidence for it and he not convicted for it, etc. massive details: http://g-2.space/sixmonths/

I have always thought that Russia has a copy of Killary’s basement server. Today, I heard Guccifer say that.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/11/guccifer-calls-fox-from-romania-says-shouldnt-be-sent-back-to-u-s.html

March 2016. Podesta emails published by Wikileaks. Podesta retyped his password = p@ssw0rd say, anyone could have done that hack. Repecussions, the most important: Pizzagate takes off. Russia is blamed. (“Fancy bears” supposedly connected to Russia.) Imho, the aim was to legitimise the claim that Russia ‘inserted’ false emails, as the pedophilia matter is very a-hem “sensitive.” An important, strong, menacing enemy was needed, outside the USA; some pip-squeak hackers would not/could not be so sophisticated and evil.

July 2016. DNC 20k emails + attach. released by Wikileaks. Show collusion against Sanders, plus more. Wasserman-Shultz resigns and goes to work for Killary campagin. The culprit is supposedly Guccifer 2.0. Recently, it is claimed (even published by The Nation! - 11 Aug. 2017) that Guccifer 2.0 was an invention of the DNC, kind of pre-emptive move to blame Russia for forthcoming revelations from the e-mails.

https://www.thenation.com/article/a-new-report-raises-big-questions-about-last-years-dnc-hack/

Seth Rich is murdered July 10, 2016, he was / is suspected of leaking the DNC emails. Ppl keen on this interpretation signal that Assange has more or less admitted Rich was a contact.

July 2017. one arrest…The Awan brothers plus family, friends had access to all coms. of House Dems, were hired by DWS / other Dems, from 2004 on, earning huge amounts of money…And were obviously slimy crooks, involved in multiple scams (failed car franchise, scuzzy landlords, illegit mortgages, insurance fraud, stealing equipement, bankruptcy, etc. had no security clearances, etc.) Could they have had something to do with the leaks/hacks? - Here we have drama about another hidden and then confiscated laptop! My intuition says no, this is a separate matter. Yet, links are being drawn between an Awan brother and Rich.

Allright, taking for granted that Russia did not ‘meddle’ in the US Prez. election (though a silent threat of revealing the Killary server contents existed imho) what happened? Is all this just the dirty laundry of corrupt and stupid ppl fiddling on their own ways with the media reporting one thing or another and then others contradicting? Probably.

apologies for length i wanted to sort this out

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 12, 2017 11:21:55 AM | 53

@51

Hahahahaha, Brilliant satire, well done.

PS

What a truly apt username you've chosen.

Posted by: Just Sayin | Aug 12, 2017 11:49:01 AM | 54

Is NK being set up to be the next "group of amateur Saudi pilots with boxcutters"? Probably.

Posted by: sejomoje | Aug 12, 2017 12:13:58 PM | 55

Another question - What happens when the Chinese cargo ships quit delivering?

Another question - Should we all charter a plane to Antarctica?

Posted by: sejomoje | Aug 12, 2017 12:20:51 PM | 56

We should remember and understand that TPTB consistently use the MSM (six corporate war profiteers) in a relentless program of fear-mongering to frighten the public and to maintain a state of fear. Big Mouth Donald Trump is serving them well (and expertly).

Hillary would have served them equally well, but Clown Donald puts on a real dummy show.

Posted by: fastfreddy | Aug 12, 2017 12:28:05 PM | 57

@4 I'm beginning to think that 'they' are all in on it. All of them...... 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company
Bingo!...
It's the Old Masonic game since the 1700s,
Gun running, Narcotics, geostrategic extortion,trade control.
Except today is add C4I Sat coverage and Computer speculation Day
Trading.
Iraq and Syria are wrecked....A Stan is US guard Opium poppy fields and plunder resources.
Putin screws Iran and favors Israel on Military weapons export.
Putin screws Assad as Israel gets another 25% of Syria's Golan for
Free.
It's comical...inthat Israel says nothing about US sanctions on Russia.
Oy Vey! Says the Jewish Russian Oligarchs.
Iran's Offshore banking Mullahs know the Masonic MIC game will roll up
On them in the future.
Everyone plays.....No exceptions.
US are bending South Korea over and giving them the THAAD!

Excerpt of poster comment/Duran article :

And this standoff is no exception. it is bluster, and behind the US bluster; 
money. Lots of it. According to Wiki:" A THAAD battery consists of at 
least six[33] launcher vehicles, each equipped with eight missiles, with
two mobile tactical operations centers (TOCs) and the AN/TPY-2 
ground-based radar (GBR);[34] the U.S. Army plans to field at least six 
THAAD batteries,[31] at a purchase cost of $800 million per battery." 
Do
the math, 800 million x6 for the basic system plus 22 million a year to
run. Oh, and they will test their system so you can figure 800 million 
x2 or 3 each and every year. 
The US is trying to force SK to accept the 
full THAAD package and as much of the cost as they can shove down their 
throats. IMO what all this bluster is about.
******

Yes indeed.....They are All in on the game

Posted by: Brad | Aug 12, 2017 1:36:04 PM | 58

The protests in Charlottesville VA are interesting. Ostensibly they are about a Confederate statue but of course they are about much more than that. No direct Trump connection but the far right guys are certainly Trump voters.

Melania has called for calm saying 'No good comes from violence' as her husband stays 'locked and loaded.'

Posted by: dh | Aug 12, 2017 1:46:58 PM | 59

Brad@58 - The US is just trying to get one THAAD battery into South Korea for the time being. I think they have two mobile launchers running, but South Korea is arguing about siting of the remaining ones. If the opposition does well in the elections, the answer may be "Thanks, but no thanks". The US had planned on selling these to South Korea, but the caused such an uproar that the US had to announce that we (the US) will be paying for the cost and operation - for now.

This obviously doesn't sit well with Trump who insists our ungrateful allies start picking up the cost of their defense which we magnanimously provide for free today. I like to think of it as someone in one of those beekeeper suits walking around whacking hornet's nests in your back yard, then demanding you buy one of his beekeeper suits 'for your own protection'.

Japan is turning out to be an easier sell. The only question there was which over-priced missile defense system they should buy - $900 million THAAD or the more economical $780 million Aegis Ashore (aye, matey!). Japanese press was reporting the prices - not sure why they get stiffed an extra $100 million for a THAAD. Yakuza kickback? The US wins either way in Japan - both use the AN/TPY-2 Eye of Sauron radar allowing the US to snoop a few thousand kilometers into China. That will compliment the South Korean AN/TPY-2.

Because you can't trust anyone unless you can hear all their communications, image every square inch of their territory and track every basketball-sized object flying in their airspace. If the Chinese have nothing to hide, then why should they object to intrusive US surveillance from South Korea and Japan? Wake up, China! We're trying to save the world here...

Posted by: PavewayIV | Aug 12, 2017 3:11:29 PM | 60

I posted this on the N. Korea thread and am bringing it up here...

@109 justsayin [or is it 'Circe'] - I am not pro or anti N. Korea. It's a country I've honestly rarely given thought to. The Middle East tends to dominate my geo studies. What I am is an American who does not want any country reaching the US shores with nuclear weapons; especially one who is under no international agreement regarding their arsenal. I make no apologies for my position. I do find Kim Jong Un's actions provocative because they are intended to be provocative.

But why?

To better understand what may (or not) be behind said provocation and Trump's response to it, I go to a handful of conservative sites who have made it their business to study then analyze everything about that man and what makes him tick. After all it was the conservatives of the U.S. who supported Trump's presidency. Of course, some here may know them or refer to them as the deplorables or the new name commie branding of them as 'extreme' alt right, whatever the hell that is. But I digress.

I might suggest, for any who are befuddled by Trump and his actions on any issue, but in particular the current NK/China/US situation, needs to accept that the old political/policy paradigm ruling this country since George Sr, died on Nov 8, 2016. Thus, employing the tools of yesteryear when attempting to figure out what in the world Trump is up to, pick a topic, is futile and will drive you crazy.

All of the battles we've witnessed over these last six months, in my opinion, has everything to do with the death throes of that decaying paradigm. And the conservative sites are slowly beginning to fill that void. If you've never followed any conservative sites, I highly suggest you do, that is if you want to understand Trump, HIS game board and strategy with a bit more clarity.

Below is a link to one of my go to conservative sites. I began following them years ago (there are many more I follow). Their team of conservative writers have been spot on over and again and they know DC. They are a humbled bunch of souls and damn, their commenters are polite and respectful.

Their take on this N. Korean situation may be of interest to those striving to understand what is [may be] going on - Report: President Trump To Announce “Section 301” Trade Investigations Against China on Monday - https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2017/08/12/report-president-trump-to-announce-section-301-trade-investigations-against-china-on-monday/

And Scott Ritter's analysis may be helpful to some as well "Resolving N. Korea Without Fire and Fury - http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/resolving-north-korea-without-fire-and-fury/

Posted by: h | Aug 12, 2017 4:01:22 PM | 61

Peter 50
"Unless war breaks out, it seems Trump is using a bit of reality TV experience to break up the US empire."
I have been thinking the same thing but from a different perspective.
His key campaign promise (MAGA)is actually a plain vanilla Isolationist policy. Now if he can scare Asia, SA, ME and the EU senseless by simultaneously upping US military commitment in the ME, threatening to invade South America and NK concurrently and starting a Trade War with China (begins on Monday)he will have defacto made the US a Pariah state. Bingo!!! Trump fulfills his campaign Isolationist promise of making the US great again by scaring everyone everywhere away. Keep in mind yes, he is a nut, but he is not a fool, this may be his plan and it might work. And the frosting on the cake may be that the MIC thinks he is merely doing what he is told.

Brad 58: Thanks,that was my "follow the money" quote from the Duran site :)

Posted by: frances | Aug 12, 2017 4:07:23 PM | 62

@53 - have you heard the Seymour Hersh conversation that Butowsky or is it Budowsky (sp?) secretly recorded and then released? You may want to add it to your sorting out process, as well as the recording of Rod Wheeler, the PI Butowsky hired to work with the family to investigate. Wheeler offers a ton of detail.

And former Amb Craig Murray recently went on record again stating " Well, through my association with WikiLeaks, I know for sure that it was a leak and not a hack. As Bill Binney, former technical director of the NSA, has pointed out, were it actually a hack the NSA would be able to pinpoint it. In fact, there is no such evidence. This is not something WikiLeaks got from a foreign state or from hackers. No, there is no doubt at all that this was an internal leak. Besides which, we are talking about two separate things in the DNC emails and the Podesta emails, so it would be wrong to presume that there is only one leaker."

https://consortiumnews.com/2017/08/11/lawsuit-challenges-dnc-anti-sanders-bias/

What is up with the Awan mess is anybody's best guess. It doesn't look good. Sen Judiciary has requested records from the FBI regarding the investigation.

And has anyone else noticed how suspiciously quiet the Left media has been regarding Russiagate? Almost makes one think the instigators have been asked to come for a sit down, under oath, in some dark office in DC.

Posted by: h | Aug 12, 2017 4:21:05 PM | 63

@61

When the first round of threatening N. Korea with war was launched by trump & co there were two posts that had a list of comments that gave a great summary of the history of the situation. If you lack background/context for the current situation a review of those two posts would be very helpful. Most regulars here found that collection of information very helpful.

Perhaps b could have them as useful links to future posts on N. Korea.

Posted by: les7 | Aug 12, 2017 4:27:42 PM | 64

My apologies @53, but Sen Judiciary requested the Awan teams immigration records NOT FBI.

Here's a link to Wheeler's report to his boss, Butowsky/Budowsky - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p8at6PD4L8

Posted by: h | Aug 12, 2017 4:29:39 PM | 65

@64 - I believe I remember the posts you are referring to and yes, the comments were very helpful. Thank you for reminding me. I think I'll go do some digging.

Posted by: h | Aug 12, 2017 4:43:35 PM | 66

h @63--

"And has anyone else noticed how suspiciously quiet the Left media has been regarding Russiagate?"

It was the Nation that first published what was already known--that Russiagate was a leak, not a hack, https://www.thenation.com/article/a-new-report-raises-big-questions-about-last-years-dnc-hack/

At least I think the Nation is still considered leftist.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 12, 2017 4:45:21 PM | 67

Yeah, karlof1, true enough but that article was about the metadata research that is slowly gaining legs. Btw, I don't know if you read the comments for that article but the author, Patrick Lawrence, posted a comment stating he was told to be careful; especially on rural roads at night. Creepy.

My comment was meant more in the sense of the 5:30 pmish WPost/NYTs/CNN alleged anon sources spewing whatever nonsense they could peddle to get their clicks up for the week. Their nightly binge reminded me of those speed traps in small town America where cops need to meet a ticket quota so as to keep money flowing into the local PD.

Posted by: h | Aug 12, 2017 5:05:01 PM | 68

How do people here feel about the new movie, "City of Ghosts"

http://www.cityofghosts.com/

About the group "Raqaa is being Slaughtered Silently"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBeqGcMaC-A

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Aug 12, 2017 5:28:38 PM | 69

h @61 justsayin' is not Circe.

h @63 IMO Hirsh's story has one big flaw: he says that Seth demanded money.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 12, 2017 5:51:46 PM | 70

@Paveway 60

Or the classic line 'Nice country you got there...would be too bad if something happened to it!'

China sure isn't very happy about THAAD, and would gladly pay a price to get rid of it, at least in S Korea.
I've been wondering for a while now what that price could be. Was even thinking of Venezuela (coincidence that Trump just brought it up?), but no, selling out a longtime ally wouldn't improve Beijing's global reputation. Plus the loss of face.

So now I'm wondering, if Beijing brokered a mutually face-saving solution for the current NK standoff, what would it get in return? The Chinese currently look like the only adults in the room, starting to get impatient with the kids...

@ashley 20

Thanks, I was unaware. Makes sense that the US would just copy British strategies of containment and tension in the region...as elsewhere. In recent years though, all efforts at establishing new bases in S E Asia were pretty fruitless. Why oh why did we give up Subic and Clark...

Posted by: smuks | Aug 12, 2017 5:52:39 PM | 71

Hersh

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 12, 2017 5:52:40 PM | 72

Seth Rich is a mystery.

Why is the Rich family so quiet? No demands for justice. No demands for an investigation. No statement to dispel nasty statements like "he wanted money".

<> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>

Mysterious. Just like the supposed amateur photographer that just happened to get a video of Hillary being lifted into a van on 9-11. The story was YUUGE! But reporters didn't seem too inquisitive - they accepted what he told them. Retire firefighter from Czech Republic who heard that Hillary would be at the ceremony and he wanted to see her.

The rumors of Hillary's health problems just happened to start just a few weeks before - and disappeared soon after.

But this story has a happy ending - soon after winning the election, Trump said he wouldn't pursue charges against Hillary. "She's been through enough" he said (after previously telling a reporter that: “I don’t wanna hurt them [the Clintons]. They’re good people ..."

When Bill Clinton met Loretta Lynch on the Tarmac, was she there to deliver the script for Hillary's 9-11 health scare? Had it been decided that TRUMP would be President instead of his good friend Hillary? But the planning included guardrails in the form of 'Russia hacked the election'.

This is the only scenario that makes sense to me.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 12, 2017 6:31:52 PM | 73

That piece of info offered by Hersh made me suspect too, jackrabbit. It was also interesting to learn, if true, that there were others who Seth clued in via his Dropbox account.

Btw, I went to your site to checkout the two links you posted in a response to me a week or so ago. In the first link you posted, there was a sentence or two regarding Trump being the leader of the birther movement. I tried to post a comment regarding that detail but couldn't. Not saying the snafu was on your end by any means. I just couldn't get my WP account to get it to post. Definitely something on my end.

Just for background though, I was intimately involved in the Article II work NOT the contrived birther scavenger hunt; two totally different camps. However, the two crossed paths daily. My professional experience was Trump came onto the scene just before the 2012 election to begin truly earning his conservative bona fides when challenging 0 to release his cert. He never lead anything prior. I can professionally attest to the fact that those of us who were working to get the facts out there regarding Article II and its import, weren't sexy enough to gain his attention let alone support. He tactically and deliberately stepped into the birther muck earning conservative voters respect, and he went dark on the crisis the moment the cert was posted on the WH website. He did pop in every now and again into the Arpaio yak but that never amounted to anything or so we've been told. Remember, up until his challenge to 0 to release his cert, no one else in the 'Establishment' dared to take the crisis on so directly and publicly.

Trump, likely making up his mind long ago to run in 2016, knew he needed a base of voters who held similar beliefs as he did. This huge block of voters did. The constitution is an American bedrock for these voters, me included. And the erosion of law and order was becoming more and more in your face with every passing day under 0. Bluntly, this voting block had had enough of the status quo in DC; especially the R side of the aisle. Anyone paying the slightest bit of attention to the average, everyday, hard working R voter b/w 2008 - 2012 knew their was a genuine opportunity to galvanize that block of voters who would lead him/her to the WH in 2016. Trump did. Today, he's solidifying their loyalty.

Trump's cause is economics and trade. His voters cause is removing the UniParty aka the Swamp and returning DC to law and order under the U.S. Constitution. Period. Together, they make a forceful team.

So, I've likely said way too much so will stop here. But I do want you to know I liked your site and appreciate the effort/time you put into your work. Good stuff. You give your readers a lot to think about. I plan to check it out often.

Posted by: h | Aug 12, 2017 7:09:39 PM | 74

tannenhauser @ 4, Yeah, I think you're right: the oligarchs of many countries are allied against the ordinary people because they want to rule them. Usually the political hacks are mere masks for the big boys, but sometimes they are lower-echelon members themselves.

Clearly this cartoonish N Korean thing is counter-intelligence theatre for the masses. Wm Engdahl points out that Kim was educated in the West & all of his theatrics are the pretext that excuses US STILL being in S Korea.

Conjecture: Do you think it's a way for the US to "accept" anti-Kim military action by their supposed opponent, the Chinese? You see, there isn't any other way to establish China as the administrator of Asia for the NWO. How can the US allow Chinese military action while maintaining that China is an opponent? Of course! Have China act against a part of Asia that's actually threatening the US. Beautiful.

But who knows? It's too deep for me.

I'm pretty certain the Russian oligarchs incl Putin are in on it: US withdrew Patriots to allow their entrance into Syria, didn't notice their entry until "too late." US/Britain were the first to declare Russian aircraft downing in the Sinai as having been committed by jihadis. Since it was going to be used as pretext for Russian escalation in Syria, why wd they DO that?

Moreover, the Sinai crash was a hoax: heavy engine sits light as a feather on the sand, wings are attached to each other, land right side up w no damage to them; they even catch on fire without exploding the gas tanks in the wings.

And if that's not enough look at the fotos of the Donbass crash, supposedly shot down by the Russians as a pretext for sanctioning their economy. But it's another hoax! Heavy engines don't dent the farmland. The one aerial shot shows what a tiny amount of wreckage there is-- all within a few feet of the only roads in the area.

Look at: The Plane That Never Crashed MH17 Hoax Revealed. But before you do, please remember that incredibly realistic blood & guts are seen all the time in the movies-- they are not real.

Regards, Penelope

Posted by: Penelope | Aug 12, 2017 7:19:23 PM | 75

Brad @58, Thanks for telling us about THADD & how S Korea either doesn't want it or doesn't want to pay for it. Much more realistic than my little scenario.


However, I think China's oligarchs are in on it too. See James Corbett on "China and the New World Order". He's got a couple of fact-based vids on China & their connex to US oligarchs. Plus, did you know they run most of US ports, and the Panama Canal. Somehow I don't think that wd by happening if US REALLY saw them as an opponents. The oligarchs are trading favors, integrating economic holdings.

SIX companies control most of Western media, and we sit spellbound, assuming it has some relation to the truth.

Posted by: Penelope | Aug 12, 2017 7:32:55 PM | 76

Penelope 76
In late 1913 and throughout 1914 there were many interdependent deals being forged between French and German industry - if I remember correctly they were in mining and steel production - but to no avail when confronted by the imbroglios of AUG./SEP. 1914. War , world war was not expected in 1914 . Lenin was preparing to relax into his memoires , more or less although History was preparing its cards .

Posted by: ashley albanese | Aug 12, 2017 7:44:46 PM | 77

"The sooner the US collapses, is destroyed, broken up, the better. Their culture of of exceptionalism and arrogance has to be destroyed."

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Aug 12, 2017 10:24:22 AM | 50

Nation of the US is something very different than the oligarchs who are in control. Just like the English people are not the British Empire or the British East India Company.
Intellectual rigor requires that you direct your ire toward the oligarchs and their many hirelings. The real battle is between the international oligarchs and the people everywhere.

I salute the Russian people, and the Chinese, the Venezuelans... and the Americans, too. And we WILL find a way to defeat the oligarchs and those who've sold out to them. If you want to be sure you're not among them, reexamine with rigor your position on global warming. It's a hoax to bring down the economies of the developed countries and to bring UP others-- especially the Chinese just now. See Global Coal Plant Tracker.

Posted by: Penelope | Aug 12, 2017 7:48:54 PM | 78

@ 74 said: "Trump's cause is economics and trade. His voters cause is removing the UniParty aka the Swamp and returning DC to law and order under the U.S. Constitution. Period. Together, they make a forceful team."

Great semantics, and writing, but, Seriously?

Posted by: ben | Aug 12, 2017 10:39:13 PM | 79

yes, Ben, seriously!

Posted by: h | Aug 12, 2017 11:36:39 PM | 80

@h

You seem to think that Trump's preparation for a Presidential run legitimizes him as a candidate.

But ask yourself: why would he run? Especially since it meant that he would be likely to face his friend Hillary? No wealthy oligarch would do that. The Clinton's are a powerful political family that any oligarch would be happy to be close to. Moreover, their daughters are best buds.

Oligarchs are risk adverse. They will screw the little guy but not a powerful politician. ( You can read about oligarchs in books like Jeffrey Winters "Oligarchy").

Trump was involved in the birthers because of Hillary. She was the first to question if Obama was qualified to be President.

Trump has always been interested in politics. But that doesn't explain his run. Oligarchs like a sure thing. Trump is an opportunist, not a populist.

The

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 12, 2017 11:54:34 PM | 81

btw, 'forceful' is the wrong word. 'Formidable' is the correct term. The sooner folks in the good ole USA accept the commie Left is no longer in the driver's seat of American politics the sooner they, I hope, will begin to make an effort to learn who is and report honestly/fairly.

Hint: Conservative media, the voters who put that man in the White House.

Bother yourselves to learn their issues, who they are and where their passion comes from. Who knows, your beliefs may very well align with theirs more than you realize.

Posted by: h | Aug 12, 2017 11:55:23 PM | 82

penelope 78

I really don't care one way or the other about global warming. Global climate has always been changing. Some civilizations went underwater around around eleven thousand years ago, due to climate change and melting icecaps. Quite a bit of undersea archaeology occurring now in those areas that went underwater. I also do believe a changing gas mix in the atmosphere will change the ambient temperature somewhat and therefore affect the climate climate.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Aug 13, 2017 12:26:36 AM | 83

ahhh, jackrabbit, we agree-Trump is an opportunist not a populist. Precisely! That word 'opportunist' did not occur to me last week when I challenged you on your observation. But it fits the Trump I've observed up close, perfectly...Opportunist.

Trump, given my short experience with him, could care less about any "Establishment" bud he used to catapult himself into the seat he's currently sitting in. One that wields the power needed to alter the trade/economic trajectory the U.S. was put on under Clinton/Bush and almost Obama with TTP and TTIP.

As we all know, he kicked that crap to the proverbial curb, that is, TTP and TTIP. He kicked it to the curb b/c the conservative majority that gave him the WH demanded he do such. Moreover, he did it b/c it was a really crappy deal for the American worker...a really, really crappy deal.

You go onto say "Trump was involved in the birthers because of Hillary. She was the first to question if Obama was qualified to be President."

Obama is the original birther. He was the one who told the world he was not eligible on his 2008 campaign website, but b/c Americans have been divorced from their own constitution AND been deliberately dumbed down as to what the Founders intent was with regards to the words "Natural" and then "Born" and then "Citizen" sadly, pitifully, didn't matter one iota what any said - right, left, legal scholars, judges, lawyers, citizens, voters.

You are mistaken to give Hillary responsibility for being the first to raise his lack of constitutional qualification. He was.

But set aside the noise, no one can ever come back and suggest otherwise b/c he did and made it known forthrightly and honestly to any who were paying the slightest bit of attention during his 2008 run. Bottom line, the guy was honest. His voters on the other hand not so much.

Posted by: h | Aug 13, 2017 12:46:22 AM | 84

>>>> dh | Aug 12, 2017 1:46:58 PM | 59

The protests in Charlottesville VA are interesting.

It seems to me that the counter-protesters initiated the violence - there was a headline in The Guardian about them being peaceful along side a photograph of a counter-protester using an aerosol as a flame thrower. Just how peaceful is that?
Meanwhile, liberals are saying it's all about democracy - preventing people from demonstrating as the "liberals" in Charlotteville did seems fairly undemocratic to me. BTW, observers claimed that there were about 1,000 right-wing protesters present - 0.0003% of the US population was all they could muster for what was supposed to be major day of action for the far right - a major threat to democracy?
The protesters must be deeply conflicted. A few years ago they saw those self-same "liberals" supporting Nazi and neo-Nazi protesters using murderous violence to overthrow a democratically-elected president with the support of the liberal regime in Washington.

Posted by: Ghostship | Aug 13, 2017 8:42:09 AM | 85

Hey, I didn't know there's still people out there who believe this fabricated 'Trump, the outsider' b/s - cute!

Posted by: smuks | Aug 13, 2017 9:30:13 AM | 86

@85 Doesn't take much to turn a peaceful protest into a violent riot. No doubt it was intended to provoke. Big problem for Trump though because the demonstrators see him as being on their side. Seems like a lot of people are conflicted.

Posted by: dh | Aug 13, 2017 9:57:12 AM | 87

59 dh
Melania tends to say the right thing. During Hamburg G20 protests she said "I hope nobody will get hurt"

Where were the police? In theory they are supposed to protect demonstrations ie both demonstrations.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 13, 2017 10:08:08 AM | 88

@88 In theory. I think the only person detained so far is the guy who drove the car into the crowd. He could face a charge of second-degree murder.

Posted by: dh | Aug 13, 2017 10:17:02 AM | 89

89

Ivanka has now come out against racism, white suprematism and fascism

on twitter

Guys felt so safe no one was wearing any masks. They must have been filmed from all sides.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 13, 2017 10:23:36 AM | 90

add to 90

Trump seems to play good cop bad cop with Ivanka. He is a businessman keeping good contact lines open to all sides.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 13, 2017 10:26:53 AM | 91

@h:

Trump . . . could care less about any "Establishment"

I disagree. IMO Trump cares a great deal about the establishment. It is ingrained in his character via a certain insecurity. You may not know that at one point his net work fell to a mere 100 or 200 million or so and that his claims of being worth $10 billion are widely criticized as vastly overstated. As of January 2017, Forbes estimated it to be only $3.5 billion , while others have estimated it to be much lower.

= = =

Obama is the original birther.

Link?

Who first raised the question of Obama's birthplace has been researched in depth and traced to "Hillary supporters" - though the politically astute have attributed it to Hillary.

= = =

You always seem to ignore or parry the thrust of my remarks. I see Trump as a continuation of the establishment regime. The Republican Obama. Like Obama, Trump serves the establishment.

"Change You Can Believe In" = = = = = = = = = = = "Make America Great Again"

"Most Transparent Administration in History" = = = "Drain the Swamp"

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 13, 2017 11:05:58 AM | 92

networth

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 13, 2017 11:07:23 AM | 93

Nixon didn't trust and infiltrated the Quakers. In this age of data mining and mass surveillance, the conspiracy is likely.

Whenever there is a sizable public uprising, it must be both tamped down and maligned in the media. If it is a non-violent event, it must be inspired to become violent or made to appear violent via agents provocateurs and disinformation in the media.

Six war-profiteering corps and operation mockingbird provide the facts.


Posted by: fast freddy | Aug 13, 2017 11:09:07 AM | 94

>>>> dh | Aug 13, 2017 9:57:12 AM | 87

Big problem for Trump though because the demonstrators see him as being on their side.

A thousand right-wingers - I hardly think so, even multiplying it up for those who couldn't be bothered to attend. When they were exercising their constitutionally-protected democratic right of assembly, any criticism of the demonstration itself by Trump would have been seized upon as an example of Trump's authoritarianism by the "liberals". Perhaps he should have just quoted Evelyn Beatrice Hall (not Voltaire).

Seems like a lot of people are conflicted.
I was being sarcastic."Liberals" such as Obama and Clinton are quite happy to use what ever unpleasant people or organizations are around (eg. Al Qaeda, ISIS, KSA, etc.) when it suits their objectives so I'm sure no "liberals" were conflicted by this typical act of hypocricy

Posted by: Ghostship | Aug 13, 2017 1:06:00 PM | 95

@95 Just a thousand neo-nazi white supremacists perhaps. That is the line the media is taking. They do represent a large reservoir of anti-liberal thinking though i.e. people who thought Trump was going to do something about what they see as the moral decline of America. He is trying to find some middle ground but he can't afford to disappoint his base too much.

I still think a lot of people right and left are conflicted on the issue. That's why they leave it to extremists to do the protesting.

I'm not sure which 'typical act of hypocrisy' you are referring to.

Posted by: dh | Aug 13, 2017 1:42:43 PM | 96

@96 add.....Maybe by hypocrisy you mean the liberal counter-protestors? They can be as mean and nasty as anybody. In fact they seem to enjoy smashing stuff up.

The demonstrators were quite well behaved mostly….except for the young man in the car who got carried away by all the excitement.

Posted by: dh | Aug 13, 2017 2:20:50 PM | 97

96) If that is the case, General Lee and secession are a strange rallying point for "Making America Great Again"?

Surely, this must be divisive even amongst Trump supporters?

Trump consciously fuels right wing instincts and emotions. I hardly see how he could make use of a statue of General Lee.

Well behaved right wing militia parading?

Mr McAuliffe said on Friday: "Many of the individuals coming to Charlottesville tomorrow are doing so in order to express viewpoints many people, including me, find abhorrent."

He urged people to stay away and "deny those ideas more attention than they deserve".

On Friday night torch-wielding protesters descended on the University of Virginia's Charlottesville campus, with some seen to throw Nazi salutes.

They basically tried to take over.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 13, 2017 2:45:21 PM | 98

The media is intentionally sowing the divisiveness, hatred and dischord. All to hang onto their ill-gotten gains aquired via their globalist puppet masters. More and more people are waking up to this fact. Whether one is left or right or in the center off the aisle, it matters not to the corrupt Deep State controlled mainstream media. All that matters to them is creating the smokescreen of what is really taking place and protecting their cashcow. People of both sides of the political aisle need to resist this divisiveness and come together. More proof that they openly lie to the public is here: #WhitehelmetsEXP Intertwined — The White Helmets and FSA Terrorist Groups — Evidence of Collusion -Part 1 https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/08/13/intertwined-the-white-helmets-and-fsa-terrorist-groups-evidence-of-collusion-part-1/

Posted by: Liam | Aug 13, 2017 3:03:58 PM | 99

@98 "Surely, this must be divisive even amongst Trump supporters?"

I'm sure it is. People had all kinds of reasons for voting for Trump. Christian Right, NRA, anti-Obama, anti-immigrant, anti-Hollywood, homophobes you name it. People who want their jobs back and lots of people who were just plain fed up with the media bullshit.

It remains to be seen how Trump distances himself from Charlotteville.

Posted by: dh | Aug 13, 2017 3:19:32 PM | 100

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