Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 11, 2017

Which Campaign Truly Colluded With Russia?

Case 1:

A Hillary Clinton campaign cut-out hires the (former?) British intelligence agent Steele to pay money to (former?) Russian intelligence agents and high-level Kremlin employees for dirt about Donald Trump. They deliver some dirty fairy tales. The resulting dossier is peddled far and wide throughout Washington DC with the intent of damaging Trump.

Case 2:

Some lobbyist for Russian business interests contacts the Trump campaign with a promise to deliver some dirt on Hillary Clinton. She meets campaign officials but no dirt on Clinton is offered. Instead the lobbyist uses the time to lobby for the business' cause. There is no follow up.

Question:

Which of the two cases stinks of "collusion with the Russians"?

Posted by b on July 11, 2017 at 01:31 PM | Permalink

Comments

This new leak on Trump Jr. actually sounds weird and will no doubt give the anti-Trump/Russia crowd lots of credit. This is what they have been waiting for.

Also...
White House: Clinton campaign colluded with Ukraine
http://freedomslighthouse.net/2017/07/10/sarah-huckabee-hits-media-for-ignoring-dnc-collusion-with-ukraine-vs-trump-nothing-inappropriate-about-don-jr-meeting-with-russian-lawyer-audio-71017/

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 11, 2017 1:45:08 PM | 1

Can someone supply a source for Case #1?

I'm kind of assuming there's no actual proof of the claim that the Steele report was commissioned by DNC or HRC but i'd like to read what the claim is.

Posted by: Daniel LaRusso | Jul 11, 2017 1:50:05 PM | 2

@2 Daniel LaRusso

Fusion GPS was on the payroll of an unidentified Democratic ally of Clinton when it hired a long-retired British spy to dig up dirt on Trump. In 2012, Democrats hired Fusion GPS to uncover dirt on GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney. And in 2015, Democratic ally Planned Parenthood retained Fusion GPS to investigate pro-life activists protesting the abortion group.

Moreover, federal records show a key co-founder and partner in the firm was a Hillary Clinton donor and supporter of her presidential campaign.

In September 2016, while Fusion GPS was quietly shopping the dirty dossier on Trump around Washington, its co-founder and partner Peter R. Fritsch contributed at least $1,000 to the Hillary Victory Fund and the Hillary For America campaign, Federal Election Commission data show. His wife also donated money to Hillary’s campaign.

More straggly bits here.

Posted by: bc | Jul 11, 2017 2:07:17 PM | 3

Trump junior today tweeted the email-exchange that set up the meeting the meeting with the Russian lobbyist.

He did so because the NYT had threatened to publish them:

After being told that The Times was about to publish the content of the emails, instead of responding to a request for comment, Donald Trump Jr. tweeted out images of them himself on Tuesday.

Who gave the NYT the private emails of Donald Trump junior?
Would that not be a criminal offense?

Posted by: b | Jul 11, 2017 2:22:46 PM | 4

The guy, who sent Trump Jr. the emails is called Rob Goldstone and works in the music industry. Michael Goldstone, who is in that industry as well is partner of Peter Mensch, the husband of Louise Mensch, Trump and Russia hater. I wonder, if the Goldstones are related?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 11, 2017 2:26:20 PM | 5

It's become clear to me that the entire "Russiagate Scandal" is an elaborate operation to cover up HRC's crimes committed through her foundation and as Secretary of State--that's where a very good case for treason lies, massive tax fraud and illegal uses of a non-profit org that isn't even properly chartered in all 50 states and in numerous other nations, amid other felonious behavior. Note that since the Podesta/DNC email leak that essentially zero members of the Propaganda System have examined the mass of evidence of wrongdoing it contains. Instead, we were immediately treated to "Russiagate," and Sanders played right along with HRC et al.

Charles Ortel is who Tyler Durden discovered as being the primary investigator into the foundation's massive fraud and wrote it up here, http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-09-07/clinton-foundation-charity-fraud-epic-proportions-analyst-charges-stunning-takedown And Ortel's created his own website to compile evidence and educate the public, http://charlesortel.com/

The Clintons were recruited by the Deep State and became some of its most effective members in advancing its cause--the primary Foreign and Domestic policy drive of the Outlaw US Empire was formulated and published during Clinton's second term: Joint Vision 2010, wherein the goal of attaining Full Spectrum Dominance over the entire planet and its people--GHW Bush's "New World Order"--was put into practice. The illegal war against Serbia was its first test, which was launched after supporting Chechen terrorists to tie down Russia so it would be unable to help. Also, the prepping of TWTC for demolition by terrorists was done simultaneously. As with the OKC bombing, the motive for 911 was the destruction of evidence implicating numerous Deep State members and overall Deep State activity that would finally tear the veil from years of multi-billion dollar graft and corruption.

So, defending the Clintons differs little from defending the Deep State since they've operated as a team for decades, which is why we've seen "Russiagate" continue on without any credible evidence to justify its existence. And, we'll continue to be plagued by it no matter how much pushback is done because of what its designed to protect. Comey did nothing with all the evidence he had because he's part of the Deep State team, which is why he hasn't been arrested for his own law breaking, http://theduran.com/comey-stole-memos-leaked-classified-information/ And the primary reason why Trump's Justice Dept. hasn't indicted either is because its head--and many others within Trump's admin.--are GOBS--Good Old Boys--that are also part of or associated with the Deep State network.

So, to answer b's question, Case One is the winner by miles.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 11, 2017 2:40:42 PM | 6

"Which of the two cases stinks of 'collusion with the Russians'"?

If you insist on playing...the one where nobody is being paid is the one more like collusion, cooperation, conspiracy, the one where two actors have the same goals. The one where somebody gets paid is just ordinary dirty business. A payoff is not an agenda.

As to the larger nonsense about Trump, he lost the election, so obviously the Russians didn't steal it. That Electoral College BS did it. All the Russian allegations are moot, they didn't make a difference.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Jul 11, 2017 2:46:31 PM | 7

b

Indeed, what we see is another deep-state leak to punish Trump and Russia,
the writing of Goldstone is also just what the anti-Trump and Russia crowd needed at this time.

All boils down to who this russian woman is I guess.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 11, 2017 2:47:59 PM | 8

What a nonsense all this is. But ultimately it's not essential if WW3 is started by a president Tronald or a president Pence.

Posted by: Pnyx | Jul 11, 2017 2:51:16 PM | 9

The art of "opposition research" is a bit mysterious. "Everybody does it", at least in USA, but the results differ. The "Russian collusion" angle was a disastrous mistake of Hillary camp because it turned out to be a ho-hum story, while they could nail Trump for a ton of infractions that would be (a) easy to explain (b) have actual victims to be displayed in campaign spots.

And of course it was a disastrous mistake of DNC not to twist hands of Hillary to resign. Bernie had very nice "message discipline" and hardly any "baggage" and Hillary was tainted by e-mail problems and she did not have Trumpian flair to dismiss it. Mental experiments: get 10 refurbished car wrecks and put them on two lots. Make Trump sell on one of them, and Hillary on the other. Which lot will get empty sooner? (Devil's thought: Bernie's used car lot, what would happen there?)

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 11, 2017 2:56:30 PM | 10

@7:

Here's rabid Bershidsky on who she is: Trump's low-level Russia connection

Even he doesn't want to be seen eating the latest nothing burger.

Posted by: CE | Jul 11, 2017 2:56:59 PM | 11

Gee, guess my post about "Russiagate" being a cover-up for HRC and Deep State got eaten. What a shame.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 11, 2017 2:58:00 PM | 12

CIA-Gate - thoughts?

Did MI-6 and CIA Collude with Chris Steele to Entrap Trump?

Posted by: Oui | Jul 11, 2017 3:29:54 PM | 13

Follow-up ...

'Sir' Andrew Wood as spy chief in Moscow

Posted by: Oui | Jul 11, 2017 3:30:20 PM | 14

it's an ouroboros. the (s)trumpenators got info from the Putinites that the clintonistas were washing in golden showers of info from ex-fisberians in their search for ruskie dirt on President Don "my military" Trump, who was informed by this from Rus's own Premier-for-life, causing the hrc to lose. and so it goes. no one knows if any of this is any more than a silly sideshow, a retarded tractor pull for the merkin bubba & mayella ewells lining birdcages w/their copies of the economist & NYT.

Posted by: we make great pets | Jul 11, 2017 3:43:59 PM | 15

I am waiting for new developments linking NSA/GCHQ intelligence collusion with Unit 8200 in the so-called "RussiaGate"

Seems to me Netanyahu is a revengeful guy and Obama interfered in the last Israeli election for the Knesset. The Democrats pushed through the Iran nuclear deal and HRC was the darling of the Muslim Brotherhood, Qatar, Egypt's Morsi and Erdogan of Turkey. The Saudi King was not amused and intelligence cooperation with Israel's Mossad has intensified. Thinking support for Al Nusra near the Golan Heights in the fight to overthrow Assad in Damascus. Useful "intelligence" from Unit 8200 in Ghouta gas attack, the so-called intercepts of the SAA generals.

The mobsters from Russia, Ukraine and Moldova are welcome guests in London and Tel Aviv ... see Katsyv, Martash Investment and money laundering thru Hapoalim Bank.

NATO and Soros Crossed Russia's Red Line in Europe

Posted by: Oui | Jul 11, 2017 3:48:34 PM | 16

Which case stinks of collusion with Russia?

Can I choose: both?

At this point, anything's possible.

Both Clinton and Trump are crooks, but in different kinds of ways.

Posted by: RUKidding | Jul 11, 2017 3:50:04 PM | 17

Fusion GPS linked to UAE Sheikh and Paul Singer, Rubio Donor

Posted by: Oui | Jul 11, 2017 4:02:37 PM | 18

Since my first comment went into cyberspace and seems to have disappeared, I'll write another in similar vein.

First, to answer b's query: #1. Cristina Lalia provides plenty of grounds for this choice by citing HRC/DNC collusion with Ukrainian officials in an attempt to get dirt on Trump, which is now conveniently forgotten, http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/47414.htm

Tyler Durden's been on the trail of the massive cover-up known as "Russiagate" since his Zerohedge article illuminating the investigation done by Charles Ortel. His most recent item deals with Comey's lawbreaking and is most damning, http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/47405.htm

Here's the link to Durden's piece on the Clinton Foundation, http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-09-07/clinton-foundation-charity-fraud-epic-proportions-analyst-charges-stunning-takedown and the link to the website Ortel made to document his investigation, http://charlesortel.com/

In my disappeared comment, I provided a rationale for Russiagate's purpose as a cover up for HRC & DNC crimes and Sander's willingness to go along. Alas, I should have copied before hitting post. I also provided the rationale for why Russiagate won't go away despite the lack of evidence--It's ultimate purpose is to cover up Deep State crimes and its primary purpose since GHW Bush declared the New World Order, which was left for the Clintons to organize. Also note how the running of Russiagate is bipartisan--where are the senate investigations into HRC, DNC, Podesta, Comey, Lynch, and who knows how many others: Why don't Republicans smell the blood and go for the kill of so many allegedly hated opponents?

Well, my comment serves the purpose but isn't as juicy as the first. Yes, I copied this one before clicking post.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 11, 2017 4:24:20 PM | 19

Which Campaign Truly Colluded With Russia?

Mu. I think this is a trick question. ;)

To me, "colluded with Russia" implies collusion with the Russian government, or state. At any rate, this is the gravamen of the current US/Western pandemic of acute Russophobia.

Even the complementary, or corollary, Putinphobia isn't directed towards Putin as a person-- Putin is only the hysterics' "Great Satan" because he personifies the Russian state/government.

As far as I can see, the allegations concerning both campaigns involve individual actors, some of whom happen to be Russian.

Even the ambiguous claims that Steele solicited and bribed "(former?) Russian intelligence agents and high-level Kremlin employees for dirt about Donald Trump" supports this view.

Sure, those Russian spooks and Kremlin insiders could have been acting in an official capacity, i.e. on behalf of the Russian goverment. But they might simply be corrupt, venal apparatchiks willing to make some money doing a private deal with Steele, et al.

So, I don't think either sketchy scenario establishes true collusion with Russia.

All that said, of the two, Case 1 stinks to high heaven.

The parties described in Case 2 aren't angels, of course. If accurate, the Russian lobbyist's "tease", or "bait and switch" is deplorable-- at least Team Trump would think so, since she wasted their time.

But it's not exactly a scandal that any campaign would welcome negative information ("dirt") about an opponent. Only naïve or idealistic True Believers in "good government" would be outraged at such routine, mundane skulduggery.

The Case 1 scenario is a different, highly-scented kettle of fish: here, the campaign is orchestrating dirty tricks to injure its opponent.

Conclusion: strictly speaking, no evidence of "true collusion with Russia"-- but Case 1 stinks for the reasons given.

Posted by: Ort | Jul 11, 2017 5:38:06 PM | 20

Cannot set aside the Clinton Foundation, CGI, bankers'speeches and especially Bill w. Lynch on the tarmac and the family mail server. No matter how much the bottom-feeding deep swamp state nips at Trump's ankles, so far he's still on top.

Trump Jr. willing to testify, wonder how much leakage Congress can take if we open the foreign superPAC donation can of worms.

Piotr @ 9 -- Hillary gets 1000 idiots in black headscarves with sticks to bash the cars to pieces and hide them under a pile of Starbucks cups.

Trump sells the cars, builds a Casino.

Posted by: stumpy | Jul 11, 2017 5:44:02 PM | 21

Case 2:

Some lobbyist for Russian business interests contacts the Trump campaign with a promise to deliver some dirt on Hillary Clinton. She meets campaign officials but no dirt on Clinton is offered. Instead the lobbyist uses the time to lobby for the business' cause. There is no follow up.

This undermines your credibility, b.

This operation -- and it sounds like an operation -- was obviously a trap of sorts.

"There is no follow up".

Yes, the genius son figured out. After changing his schedule on demand (that was a test to see how desperate he is for it) and finally meeting the person he believed was a "Russian government attorney" bring info from "Crown prosecuter", Mr. Peter Principle realizes that he was played. I bet he's sweating bullets for a while now.

On a side note, isn't amazing that such stupid incompetents (such as D Jr.) get to enjoy the fat of the land while the rest of us work at the plantation. What a thoughtless idiot. You're fired, Donnie.

Posted by: nobody | Jul 11, 2017 5:44:42 PM | 22

Gee, my second extended comment got eaten too. Guess they must have some tasty links wanted by whatever filter b's uses. But this time I made a copy!

‌Since my first comment went into cyberspace and seems to have disappeared, I'll write another in similar vein. But now I'll remove all links and see if my comment makes it through the spam gauntlet.

First, to answer b's query: #1. Cristina Lalia provides plenty of grounds for this choice by citing HRC/DNC collusion with Ukrainian officials in an attempt to get dirt on Trump, which is now conveniently forgotten.

Tyler Durden's been on the trail of the massive cover-up known as "Russiagate" since his Zerohedge article illuminating the investigation done by Charles Ortel. His most recent item deals with Comey's lawbreaking and is most damning.

In my disappeared comment, I provided a rationale for Russiagate's purpose as a cover up for HRC & DNC crimes and Sander's willingness to go along. Alas, I should have copied before hitting post. I also provided the rationale for why Russiagate won't go away despite the lack of evidence--It's ultimate purpose is to cover up Deep State crimes and its primary purpose since GHW Bush declared the New World Order, which was left for the Clintons to organize. Also note how the running of Russiagate is bipartisan--where are the senate investigations into HRC, DNC, Podesta, Comey, Lynch, and who knows how many others: Why don't Republicans smell the blood and go for the kill of so many allegedly hated opponents?

Well, my comment serves the purpose but isn't as juicy as the first. Two links are now at top of ICH, and Ortel's is simply his name dot com. Now lets see what happens.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 11, 2017 5:59:41 PM | 23

b,

Yes, indeed! Who gave the NY Times, Donnie Jr's emails?

Will Papa Donnie investigate?

Posted by: ab initio | Jul 11, 2017 6:06:45 PM | 24

How Do You Spell Seth Rich?

"New meta-analysis has emerged from a document published today by an independent researcher known as The Forensicator, which suggests that files eventually published by the Guccifer 2.0 persona were likely initially downloaded by a person with physical access to a computer possibly connected to the internal DNC network. The individual most likely used a USB drive to copy the information. The groundbreaking new analysis irrevocably destroys the Russian hacking narrative, and calls the actions of Crowdstrike and the DNC into question."

Posted by: JSonofa | Jul 11, 2017 6:10:14 PM | 25

I'm going with option 3 Jack, the biggest collusion in the US elections was AIPAC. and it will continue to be so. Astounding people have no issue with dual citizens of Israel lobbying and actually writing bills and laws for AmeriKa!

Posted by: Hawaiiguy | Jul 11, 2017 6:23:35 PM | 26

The big takeaway from all the Russiagate garbage - there was collusion between heads of intel and Obama admin to install Clinton as president, and now the same collusion to take down Trump.

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 11, 2017 6:37:19 PM | 27

Hawaiiguy @24--

Yes, you illuminate one of several elephants in the room. Some of us can actually see them all, but apparently very few journalists or police investigators can.

Peter AU @25--

It appears the Deep State didn't trust Trump to keep its many secrets covering its illegalities secret. It also seems the Republicans want to keep them secret too since we don't see any sign of any investigation into Clinton Foundation, Comey's law breaking, or anything else of importance.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 11, 2017 6:51:15 PM | 28

There is that other country in the Gulf that is

Special And Off Limits - No Special Prosecutor for Clinton. Russia hacking DNC was determined by Crowdstrike.

Crowdstrike has an odor. The DNC refused the FBI to examine the claim of Russia hacking their servers. Why?

"Something Stinks Here" - CrowdStrike Revises, Retracts Parts Of Explosive Russian Hacking Report


Last week, I published two posts on cyber security firm CrowdStrike after becoming aware of inaccuracies in one of its key reports used to bolster the claim that operatives of the Russian government had hacked into the DNC. This is extremely important since the DNC hired CrowdStrike to look into its hack, and at the same time denied FBI access to its servers.

Before reading any further, you should read last week’s articles if you missed them the first time.

"Credibility of Cyber Firm that Claimed Russia Hacked the DNC Comes Under Serious Question"

"What is CrowdStrike? Firm Hired by DNC has Ties to Hillary Clinton, a Ukrainian Billionaire and Google"

"Now here are the latest developments courtesy of Voice of America:"[.]


Posted by: likklemore | Jul 11, 2017 7:27:32 PM | 29

from the NYT story

...There is no evidence to suggest that the promised damaging information was related to Russian government computer hacking that led to the release of thousands of Democratic National Committee emails...."

notice that it is no longer "alleged Russian hacking", BUT "Russian government computer hacking"

I have seen no hard evidence of that at all. Go believe what you want, the Ruling Class has decided on their stupid ignorant narrative which will/may drive us to nuclear war.

This whole story and anything related now bores the sh*t out of me, and I will never again post anything remotely related to it


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/10/us/politics/donald-trump-jr-russia-email-candidacy.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=span-ab-top-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

Posted by: michaelj72 | Jul 11, 2017 8:14:50 PM | 30

The Washington Times - Tuesday, July 11, 2017 outing the names

If anyone should be investigated in Washington, it ought to be Adam Schiff, Eric Swalwell, Mark Warner and their staffers.”

Democrats intentionally used disinformation from Russia to attack Trump, campaign aides

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jul/11/democrats-spread-false-russian-information-on-trum/

Christopher Steele says in a court filing that his accusations against the president and his aides about a supposed Russian hacking conspiracy were never supposed to be made public, much less posted in full on a website for the world" ... more >

While the liberal news media hunts for evidence of Trump-Russia collusion, the public record shows that Democrats have willfully used Moscow disinformation to influence the presidential election against Donald Trump and attack his administration.
The disinformation came in the form of a Russian-fed dossier written by former British intelligence agent Christopher Steele. It contains a series of unverified criminal charges against Mr. Trump’s campaign aides, such as coordinating Moscow’s hacking of Democratic Party computers.

Some Democrats have widely circulated the discredited information. Mr. Steele was paid by the Democrat-funded opposition research firm Fusion GPS with money from a Hillary Clinton backer. Fusion GPS distributed the dossier among Democrats and journalists. The information fell into the hands of the FBI, which used it in part to investigate Mr. Trump’s campaign aides.


The same Democrats who have condemned Russia’s election interference via plying fake news and hacking email servers have quoted freely from the Steele anti-Trump memos derived from creatures of the Kremlin.

In other words, there is public evidence of significant, indirect collusion between Democrats and Russian disinformation, a Trump supporter said. .

“If anyone colluded with the Russians, it was the Democrats,” said a former Trump campaign adviser who asked not to be identified because of the pending investigations. “After all, they’ve routinely shopped around false claims from the debunked Steele dossier, which listed sources including senior Kremlin officials.
If anyone should be investigated in Washington, it ought to be Adam Schiff, Eric Swalwell, Mark Warner and their staffers.”

That is a reference to Rep. Adam B. Schiff of California, the top Democrat on the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence; Sen. Mark R. Warner, Virginia Democrat and vice chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence; and Rep. Eric Swalwell, a California, Democrat on the House intelligence panel.[.]


Posted by: likklemore | Jul 11, 2017 8:43:40 PM | 31

who needs a soap opera when you have it all on a regular thanks the usa... another friggin' usa scandal on the front pages, over and over and over... i am so tired of these wacky usa based stories and will happy when they are over..

for those who love reading these kinds of things emptywheel has a post on this.. i stopped reading her mostly as it was 24/7 as the stomach ( usa ) turns 24/7...

Posted by: james | Jul 11, 2017 10:37:20 PM | 32

Re: steven t johnson | Jul 11, 2017 2:46:31 PM | 6 you write:
"As to the larger nonsense about Trump, he lost the election, so obviously the Russians didn't steal it. That Electoral College BS did it."

Sorry, Trump actually won the election according to the US Constitution. You are free to complain about the electoral system, but that doesn't negate the election results, regardless of you opinions.

Posted by: Perimetr | Jul 11, 2017 11:43:54 PM | 33

"Both Clinton and Trump are crooks, but in different kinds of ways."

Posted by: RUKidding | Jul 11, 2017 3:50:04 PM | 16

Yep! Both these morons represent what the U$A has become. An empire who's lust for $ & power is a threat to the entire globe.

Posted by: ben | Jul 11, 2017 11:57:38 PM | 34

A genuine scandal that cries for a Special Prosecutor. https://theintercept.com/2017/07/10/jared-kushner-tried-and-failed-to-get-a-half-billion-dollar-bailout-from-qatar¨> Kushner tried to shakedown the Qataris.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2017/07/impeachment-president-trump-now-much-likely.html¨> Washingtonsblog´s analysis.

The PBS Newshour led off with the dim-witted Donnie,jr meeting with a sleazy Russian lawyer, but never even mentioned the more substantive Kushner story...I wonder why.

Posted by: joeymac | Jul 12, 2017 12:28:14 AM | 35

With a bit more thought, it seems plausible that this Russian lawyer and her promoter friends simply staged a shakedown -- evidence of the meeting, i.e. emails to Jr, held as extortion collateral. Guessing the timing was pretty close to G20 to punish Trump for being nice to Vlad, if you want to read more into it for a possible link to DNC, but the thing is coming out of left field where it otherwise makes little sense. Pretty worn-out ruse, get a shot of the mark with a hooker, threaten to reveal, etc.

Meanwhile, Pence building support to step in when Trumpy goes down. Pence is starting to look like a backstabbing little shit, imo.

Posted by: stumpy | Jul 12, 2017 12:30:16 AM | 36

did pence look any other way previously? pence - good word for about how much he is worth..

Posted by: james | Jul 12, 2017 12:57:55 AM | 37

Leaving aside Shrillary's inherently amoral nature, and focusing solely on Trump Jr's story, I've noticed two interesting aspects.
1. Trump Jr's story is too inconveniently innocent and plausible and The Swamp is faux-angrily determined to undermine it no matter how ridiculous the convoluted rhetoric has to become.
2. Zio-Jazeera and BBC are being VERY CAREFUL to ensure that the pro and anti Trump camps deliver their respective messages with minimal interruption. Imo, they're both letting the Public decide who is, and who isn't telling porkies.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 12, 2017 1:45:28 AM | 38

If "nothing-burger" wasn't already in the Official Lexicon, it will be when this episode approaches its conclusion.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 12, 2017 2:02:58 AM | 39

Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 12, 2017 1:45:28 AM | 36

Interesting UK is hedging their bets on this one. Did it also with AIIB.

Posted by: Peter AU | Jul 12, 2017 2:21:24 AM | 40

I am giddy with delight at the evil bastards in the U.S. deep state tearing themselves apart. The psychopaths won't be defeated by any means and the U.S. public will just be mildly confused by what's going on and continue to elect new ones. Obviously nobody is going to jail no matter how bad this gets - that just never happens (except for 'little people'). But it's somehow satisfying for now to watch the Washington elite punch themselves in the face and bleed for a while.

I know - very ephemeral. We'll be at war soon enough. It's the proven 'standard distraction' in political meltdowns like this and/or during financial collapse. Both are in play now. [sigh...]

Posted by: PavewayIV | Jul 12, 2017 3:35:34 AM | 41

PavewayIV

"I know - very ephemeral. We'll be at war soon enough. It's the proven 'standard distraction' in political meltdowns like this and/or during financial collapse. Both are in play now. [sigh...] "

Unfortunately yes, thats the only rational result it seems, these liberal, deep state, msm are simply psychopaths with their ongoing hate. What else are they demanding? Disgusting people..

So watch out for more attacks on Syria or perhaps North Korea.
And that Russia/US making up,.. wont happen.

Posted by: Anon | Jul 12, 2017 4:02:36 AM | 42

Gee, guess my post about "Russiagate" being a cover-up for HRC and Deep State got eaten. What a shame.

Posted by: karlof1

Your comments were sitting in the spam queue. I have no influence over it. It captures lots of spam but once a while legitimate comments are also caught up. I release them once or twice per day - however my time allows. Your comments are now available above.

Posted by: b | Jul 12, 2017 4:38:48 AM | 43

Thx b for all your effort!

Posted by: Oui | Jul 12, 2017 4:45:05 AM | 44

During the meeting between Trump and Putin at the G20 get-together, the concept of a joint cyber-security program was raised. My understanding is that Trump seemed OK with that, but the US establishment closed it down. Anything to do with Lavrov's comment that the cyber-security issue is intimately tied in with pornography and pedophilia?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5wz_56lRh4&t=9m25s

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 12, 2017 6:20:01 AM | 45

Yunno, any purported collusion with the Russian government (as opposed to private entities from a foreign nation) is the least of the problems I have with Trump.

Most of all, my problems lie with the obvious and blatant conflicts of interest between his office and his business dealings. The Clinton Foundation is a purely charitable operation, the Trump Foundation is used as a means of recycling money to and from Trump businesses.

And people made jokes and memes about his "covfefe" tweet, but that simply demonstrates to me that a major channel of communication controlled by the executive branch is uttering nonsense and there is nobody to check or regulate it.

That indicates the extent to which Trump is not qualified, in terms of background, experience or character, for the office of the Presidency.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Jul 12, 2017 7:07:15 AM | 46

After a half page of comments I have yet to see one that might even consider that there might be culpability on the part of the Trumps or Russian officialdom. Even the most thoughtful of this board's contributors won't go there. I guess the latest revelations are just more fake news but oddly enough nobody in DC is calling it that.

The email from from Rob Goldstone was so over the top in its description of the "crown prosecutor of Russia" and his government's willingness to help the Trump campaign that one could reasonably assume it was a set-up. But by whom? Was Goldstone an accomplice of the deep state? Read the fake news and find out that he's an old Trump hanger-on who's done business with the family on occasion and has operated with Russian nationals on a regular basis and currently is an agent for a Russian "aspiring" pop star. Was he turned by evil forces? What about femme fatale lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya? Another deep state operative? Or was she just acting on behalf of Russian business people looking for relief from the Magnitsky Act? What did she have to offer and where did she get it? From Hillary or the DNC? Does that even make sense? How far down the fucking rabbit hole is one prepared to go? Better get the Saker or Pepe Escobar to straighten this out.

The unalterable fact is that Trump Jr, Kushner and Manafort were all over the opportunity for Russian help like flies on shit. Whether or not there was any follow-up will be determined in due course by special counselor Mueller as he hoovers up all the email traffic and phone records surrounding this matter.

To all those who express exasperation that a year of investigation has uncovered exactly nothing I say bear in mind that none of the principals have yet to testify before Mueller or the Senate Intelligence Committee. Kushner keeps revising his list of meetings with Russian nationals as more information emerges. His security clearance may come under review. The rest of the crew are lawyered up to the nuts and waiting for their turn in the barrel. I drool at the prospect of Al Franken taking these clowns apart. I know it's anathema for posters to face the possibility that their idols might somehow be guilty of even a smidgen of what has been alleged but that says more about them than what's emerging day by day.

Posted by: peter | Jul 12, 2017 7:27:15 AM | 47

>>>>Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 12, 2017 2:02:58 AM | 39

If "nothing-burger" wasn't already in the Official Lexicon, it will be when this episode approaches its conclusion.

It already has. The Brit was a snake oil salesman, the lawyer was a mid-level commercial lawyer who was involved with Fusion GPS (see Steele Report)had nothing to show that the Russian government was interfering against Clinton, Donald Jr. is a naive moron who needs to have a sceptic like the Amazing Randi as his minder and the Clintonists demonstrate yet again that they are a bunch of deranged moronic losers who will continue losing, which we knew already anyway. So move along no, there really is nothing to see.

Posted by: Ghostship | Jul 12, 2017 7:30:04 AM | 48

1. Ditto Peter, the wording of the introductory email looked like a sting, 'sensitive, Russian state information', 'Russian govt helping DT', 'Russian prosecutor', it was ludicrous.

2. There was no material exchange - hence no collusion.

OT: Tucker Carlson interviews Ralph Peters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i772m4UdadE

It's a 12 minutes but well worth watching.
1. Peters is his usual unhinged self.
2. Carlson is refreshingly non-conformist and maintains his composure which makes Peters look even more unhinged. If only there were more Tucker Carlsons in the U.S. MSM.

Posted by: Christian Chuba | Jul 12, 2017 8:33:51 AM | 49

@ralphieboy

"The Clinton Foundation is a purely charitable operation ..."

Thx! Best laugh of the day ...

Clinton Foundation seen at a crossroads after Hillary Clinton's dashed White House dreams | CNBC – Nov. 19, 2016 |

Posted by: Oui | Jul 12, 2017 9:01:32 AM | 50

Advice on what triggers the spam filter might help commenters avoid being caught in it.

Posted by: lysias | Jul 12, 2017 10:35:19 AM | 51

It's easy to forget that the only reason we're being assaulted by the MSM with all this infantile Russia crap is that Hillary ran a lazy and misguided Prez Campaign and lost. It was obviously and blatantly premised on attracting the "popular" vote instead of the Electoral College vote. She spent the entire campaign cycle either basking in her own reflected glory in front of small, occasional, gatherings of her own Groupies, or recuperating from her previous basking session.

Given that she's an experienced lawyer, and it should have been obvious to her Campaign Managers, and Hillary herself, that Trump was spending 12/7 at 100mph, pursuing the Electoral College vote, one has to ask who was in charge of her campaign and why didn't Team Clinton wake up before it was too late?

i.e. Who, in Team Hillary, persuaded her to ignore the Electoral College?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 12, 2017 10:38:34 AM | 52

Well, there is still the fact that the GOP platform changed to a pro-Russian stance nearing the convention. Pretty circumstantially damning. I get it, the Dems do bad things too. But come on people, where was your defense of Obama when everyone had Benghazi fever? Surely a Republican has shown a willingness to spin the analysis of an event in order to look good for a campaign (that's literally what Benghazi was about). And surely a Republican has used unofficial communication methods that were subject to possible hacking or eavesdropping or leaking of classified material. If one were to consistently play the role of contrarian then it should be easy enough to do with Benghazi and emailgate. But Moon is obviously in the bag for the right and will allow bias to guide his choice of topics.

There is still the problem of why the heck Trump doesn't just admit to half of the stuff he is being outed for. The whole cover up is worse than the crime applies heavily here. First he lies and then he admits but excuses - "Clinton did it first!" Over and over he keeps having to play on the defensive because his untruths keep getting uncovered. He cries fake news while promoting and issuing fake news on a regular basis. Why defend this creep? We are at the point where defending him is stupid because he is clearly not fit for office. I say that realizing that Pence would become president and I am no fan of his policies. But it is time to send a message to the planet that we are done following reality tv scammers and will put serious people in charge.

Posted by: Kronos | Jul 12, 2017 10:52:19 AM | 53

Trump Jr's story is too inconveniently innocent and plausible and The Swamp is faux-angrily determined to undermine it no matter how ridiculous the convoluted rhetoric has to become.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 12, 2017 1:45:28 AM | 38

My thoughts exactly. What a better way to add spice to a boring afternoon than to invite a Russian lawyer to let her cry a river over injustices of Magnitsky Act etc. But on the second thought, while the story is innocent, it seems more surprising than plausible.

One explanation could be that to help his father, the junior listens to lobbyists for few hours a week. Perhaps Chelsea Clinton had such chores as well.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 12, 2017 10:56:28 AM | 54

Hoarsewhisperer @52--

I don't think the EC was ignored; rather, I think it was just a case of hubris given HRC's Deep State connections and its assurances to her that she had earned the right to be next. The many illegalities within the Clinton Foundation ought to generate a scandal bigger than any before within US history aside from the assassinations.

b @43--

Thanks for releasing my initial comment.

In Chicago, there's a scene called "The Tap Dance" which is what we're being treated to on a grand scale. I played it on July 4th because it epitomized our current situation and is just so American thanks to Bob Fosse--Broadway's version of George Carlin.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 12, 2017 11:08:12 AM | 55

peter says:

To all those who express exasperation that a year of investigation has uncovered exactly nothing I say bear in mind that none of the principals have yet to testify before Mueller or the Senate Intelligence Committee...I drool at the prospect of Al Franken... blah, blah, blah,...

you seem to be in awe of those goobers down at the Capitol. you know, the ones with the 17% approval rating, the ones who get lied to by pretty much whoever they happen to be grilling(Brennan and Clapper come to mind) and don't seem to care, the ones who gave us the Patriot Act in 2001 while shirking their war-making powers thus unleashing the destruction of half the Muslim world,...

the ones who wrote themselves a law in 1989 which automatically raises their pay every year,...

and Mueller? he's just another political hack.

Posted by: john | Jul 12, 2017 11:45:06 AM | 56

I don't think the EC was ignored; rather, I think it was just a case of hubris given HRC's Deep State connections and its assurances to her that she had earned the right to be next.
...
Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 12, 2017 11:08:12 AM | 55

Well, as an either/or that's equally plausible, if not more so. But I've adopted the ignored Electoral College meme because when I'm consuming the angst and faux sincerity from a member of the Russian Collusion crowd, I need only remind my self that this person believes that Hillary ran a superbly professional and flawless campaign, to transform it into a comedy. And the question "what other silly stuff is he/she capable of believing" prolongs the belly laughs and answers itself before the end of the Q & A.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 12, 2017 11:51:24 AM | 57

@oui,

The Clinton Foundation releases its records and enjoys a favorable rating in terms of overhead costs. Of course there are people on both Right and Left who are looking for anything about it that they can tear apart.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Jul 12, 2017 11:58:09 AM | 58

@46 ralpieboy... you gave me the best laugh of the morning - "The Clinton Foundation is a purely charitable operation" no strings attached to all that saudi and etc. money.. wow.. now i can rest easy, lolol!

@50 oui - lol.. i see you beat me to it!!!

Posted by: james | Jul 12, 2017 12:13:19 PM | 59

Kronos

What is that he have been "outed" for?
What is it that he have lied about?
Exactly what is wrong with his criticism of the MSM?

Trump getting defamed every day, of course he's not the best politician, that should'nt keep one from seeing who the problem is, and its not Trump.
If MSM just could accept defeat of Clinton and MSM stop its hatred, Trump would probably have accomplished alot more by now and actually focus his time on important stuff, now MSM drags him down every day in childish battles.

Posted by: Anon | Jul 12, 2017 12:42:00 PM | 60

57
The Clinton Foundation was a vehicle for all Clintons to remain or become politically relevant. Now, when everybody bets on Hillary never becoming president, its revenues will have dried up.
Basically, the Foundation sold access to the Clintons and enabled the Clintons to employ and buy support.
Ivanka Trump is doing the same with a women's foundation now.

The real scandal is what happened around the Magnizky act.

Russian oligarchs are robber barons, but the audacity of an investment fund claiming tax fraud had been committed by firms "stolen from them and reregistered" is mind blowing.

The concept of "activist" investment funds ....

Posted by: somebody | Jul 12, 2017 1:06:13 PM | 61

peter@47 - "...After a half page of comments I have yet to see one that might even consider that there might be culpability on the part of the Trumps or Russian officialdom..."

From my perspective, why even bother, peter? I understand the point you're trying to make and Trump may be guilty as hell, but most of this circus has been manufactured in the U.S. to delay and distract from what should be the main attraction: a Hillary/Clinton Foundation/DNC barbecue. Hear much about that lately through all the Russia-gate noise? The coals are just not quite hot enough yet and there are a lot of Hillary/Clinton Foundation/DNC criminals still praying for rain. I would hate for this go disappear down the memory hole, but damn... it's looking like that's what is going to happen at this point. (At least we got the meme wars against CNN for entertainment)

Trump is just another buffoonish, slimy, self-serving oligarch [yawn]. Pretty standard fare for a U.S. politician, although admittedly far more entertaining. Russia is Russia -
I won't throw any rocks at them. If Hillary/Clinton Foundation/DNC had never existed, then I would take a little more interest in exposing the various political rodents here, including Trump and his team. Although I would seriously question why Russian collusion is called out instead of the 800 pound gorilla in the room: Israel (and to a lesser extent, GCC) collusion. THAT has already caused far more damage to the U.S. and the world than any single issue IN MY LIFETIME. Trump slimy too? Yeah, whatever... he can have a few more gaudy hotels and golf courses in Eastern Europe for the trailer-trash wealthy. Russian oligarchs raping the Russians? Yeah, what's new there?

Problem is that you can't ignore who is doing the accusing here and for what reason. The Clinton Crime Syndicate should not get to accuse anyone else of being slimy, and does not get to 'choose' which country's influence is more troublesome that the others. Yet that is exactly what is being done here. Don't you see the tiresome psychopath pattern? The Clinton/DNC cabal has created a 'bigger' evil in Trump and led the U.S. public by the nose (via the MSM) to the altar of hate. Now they're screamign that the evil must be destroyed! Take your captagon! Sharpen your knives! Storm the castle!

Does the Trump castle need to be stormed? Is he / are they truly evil? Will I even consider it? To your point: Nope - don't got time, and don't have any useful weapons. I'm facing the other way right now occupied with 'the other' castle and it's screeching harpies. That's the castle that's been taking down the U.S. (for a long damn time, I might add). I'm a bit more concerned with the psychopathic serial killer I know that lives in that one, not whether some petty thief in the other may have been plotting a heist or hanging out with other petty thieves.

Yeah, I know... 'voting' and 'the law'. If you worship those two broken, useless tools as they exist today in usurped democracies, then I suppose consideration of Trump's 'crimes' are worth the effort. As it stands now, storming either castle is useless when the only weapons we have for a slave revolt is 'voting' and 'the law'. Might as well have pillows and feather dusters to take down the walls.

Thus, my point: Which castle to attack with said pillows and feather dusters? Who really cares - it's not a solution to ANYTHING. I would rather people focused on the bigger, known enemy, but - seriously - why bother? The pillow-toting slaves and their angry shouting threaten nobody.

Wake me up when the slaves understand that pillows and feather dusters don't work. Wake me up when they roll out the cannons and have the fortitude to hang the castle royalty from the lamp posts. Until then, 'America's Got Oligarchs!" is the only show on cable aside from CNN - opiates for the masses.

Posted by: PavewayIV | Jul 12, 2017 1:29:12 PM | 62

Hoarsewhisperer, Kronos, Anon

Hillary wanted Trump to be the Republican nominee

Mainstream Media dutifully provided Trump with mostly favorable coverage.

Hillary ran a terrible campaign

Despite having every advantage in money and political smarts.

Trump announced that he wouldn't prosecute Hillary within days of being elected. Faux-populist Presidents are natural in an inverted totalitarian government:
How Things Work: Betrayal by Faux-populist Leaders

Attacking Trump as a Russian sympathizer is part of a well-worn political dynamic that pits 'enforcers' against 'apologists'. Just as Obama faced criticism for being a socialist Muslim that wasn't born in USA.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 12, 2017 1:32:02 PM | 63

@59 Anon

Trump would probably have accomplished alot more by now and actually focus his time on important stuff, ...

Do you mean ¨important stuff" like wasting $50 million worth of missiles in response to chemical weapons attack that didn´t happen, and he knew it didn´t happen because his own intelligence agencies told him that it was BS. Maybe, it was important to show that his small hands are not predictive (or indicative).

Or, more importantly, ¨grabbing the pussy¨ of the deranged Nikki Haley.

Posted by: joeymac | Jul 12, 2017 1:45:33 PM | 64

joeymac

Syrian attack is just the result of the hatred going on against him and him showing the neocon MSM/deepstate that he have no problem attacking (the allies of) Russia.

Posted by: Anon | Jul 12, 2017 2:10:27 PM | 65

It seems silly to get worked up over what is essentially a SHOW put on by the establishment and the establishment's front-man.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 12, 2017 2:11:11 PM | 66

A reddit post some here may be interested in. The comments are interesting too -

I HAVE THE DEMS END GAME ON DT JR MEETING. HE'S A DISTRACTION, THEY'RE GOING AFTER TRUMP WITH THIS. ALL INFO INSIDE.

snippet

"MOST IMPORTANT PART (summary). This DNC hit job to connect Emin to Putin and then Emin to President Trump was planned BEFORE THE DNC WAS "HACKED" BY "RUSSIA". This was their end game all along. Their next "bombshell" will be "Who is this Emin that set up the meeting? Oh wow he's connected to Putin and here is President Trump in his music video". This is how they're going to use this bullshit cooked up meeting to go after President Trump. All planned since May of 2016 before anyone was fucking "hacked". And they weren't his name was fucking Seth Rich you fucks."

"EDIT. HERE IS THE EMAIL WHERE THEY GOT THE TRUMP MUSIC VIDEO OF EMIN, THEY EVEN SAY "PUTIN CONNECTED". ALL BEFORE THE HACKING EVEN HAPPENED. https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/11812"

Caps are authors not mine

https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/6mqseq/i_have_the_dems_end_game_on_dt_jr_meeting_hes_a/

Posted by: h | Jul 12, 2017 2:14:56 PM | 67

Not sure why my post @66 is bolded. I thought I only 'bolded' the author's header. Apologies in advance to all who will say to themselves 'WTH is with the bold'...

Posted by: h | Jul 12, 2017 2:17:28 PM | 68

Paveway IV @61--

Thanks for confirming my hypothesis. I surely wish Mike Ruppert hadn't gotten so upset at the lack of visible political vision by the citizenry that made him end his life. Both him and Gary Webb ought to still be alive, and who knows how many others have thrown up their hands in disgust only to then pick up a gun to end their turmoil. The disgusting rot-at-the-top isn't worth ending one's life, nor is lack of progress in trying to expose it. It's not much solace, but at least we know we're correct.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 12, 2017 2:34:13 PM | 69

h @66--

You'll be interested to read Mercouris's account of Jr's email and possible failed sting, http://theduran.com/donald-trump-junior-russian-lawyer-non-story-sting/

And you'll certainly want to read this item linking the players with former US Ambassador to Russia McFaul, http://theduran.com/breaking-russian-lawyer-pictured-with-obamas-ambassador-to-russia-days-after-meeting-trump-jr/

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 12, 2017 2:44:59 PM | 70

The Clinton Foundation was a vehicle for all Clintons to remain or become politically relevant. Now, when everybody bets on Hillary never becoming president, its revenues will have dried up.
...
Posted by: somebody | Jul 12, 2017 1:06:13 PM | 60

Yes!
Great launching pad for a thought experiment about the blowback from Hillary's 'surprise' defeat. I'm imagining irate 'donors' demanding a refund on the down-payment for promises which will now languish, unfulfilled, like the many dreams brought to Mona Lisa's doorstep - they just lie there and they die there.
It would certainly help to explain the speed with which the anger and bitterness went from zero to Full Monty after the swearing in.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 12, 2017 2:51:17 PM | 71

@h - thank you - a very important trace.
--

A writer at the Duran makes a quite good case that the "Russian lawyer" visit to Trump jun was a trap or sting.
Donald Trump Junior and the Russian lawyer: non story and possible sting

The ONLY person saying that Russian officials were involved offering Clinton dirt is the tabloid screed Goldstone who set up the meeting. Goldstone is British (like MI-6 Steele). The Russian lawyer denied that she had any such dirt to offer.

The first Steele report is on June 20, after the Trump jun. meeting

That DNC email about the ENIM video fits well into that puzzle.
--

Funny how the media have now COMPLETELY forgotten the Steele report and the Clinton campaign paying for the Russian intelligence sources in it.

The NYT today has this (laughable) piece:

Campaign Opposition Research Is Standard. But Not ‘Oppo’ From Hostile Nations.

.. while opposition research is part of modern presidential campaigns, it normally does not come from representatives of a hostile foreign power.

Purpose of the piece is to say that Trump did something dirty that only Nixon before him did.

But that piece leaves out the Steele dossier and Clinton Oppo research on Trump done with Russian help.

Robert Parry earlier remarked this sudden vanishing of the the Steele dossier:
Forgetting the ‘Dirty Dossier’ on Trump

Posted by: b | Jul 12, 2017 2:54:56 PM | 72

https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/tkelly6785757/episodes/2017-06-27T03_00_39-07_00 http://www.conspiracyschool.com/blog/donald-trump-chabad-lubavitch-and-oligarchs https://www.globalvillagespace.com/a-syrian-ceasefire-for-whom/

Trump and Putin are both Compromised by Zionist/Jew Bankers and Chabad Lubavitch.
The podcast interview reveals Trump's history in Jewish/Mob intrigues.

Worshipping Putin is also delusion...
https://jdavismemphis.com/2015/10/19/evidence-russia-cannot-be-trusted-putin-is-not-a-hero/

Both are Teflon.....yet only because sheeple are that stupid,....by not researching or asking why
Said political rise out of nowhere occured.

Posted by: Brad | Jul 12, 2017 3:24:38 PM | 73

Thanks b and karlof1 - Remember, in order to get a FISA warrant to surveil a subject, that target must be foreign. Thus, this Goldstone character resides in Britain who then reached out to Jr using key language, which I'm confident someone paid him handsomely to do, so those keywords would be flagged by U.S. intel. Once flagged, the politicized FBI goes to FISA to request surveillance warrants to include Jr's and likely Manafort's and Kushner's incoming electronic correspondence. The FISA court denied said warrant in June but issued a warrant in October, at least my memory tells me it was October. Could be wrong.

It seems more and more obvious to me that the intent behind Goldstone's email to Jr was to give cause to the FBI to secure a FISA surveillance warrant to surveil the Trump 'election' team but the court turned the request down. Think about that. Had the court approved the warrant they would have had full access in June to the Trump campaign. That's mind blowing! Your opposition having eyes and ears on all of the strategy behind the opponents campaign. Whew! That's political gold.

Goldstone is the key here. He laid the trap as Mercouris clearly points out in the articles both of you linked to.

What's so crazy, at least to me, is the legacy media is cheering this like it's proof Team Trump did something wrong all the while really showing the low, tawdry, dirty dealings of Team Obama/Hillary.

Posted by: h | Jul 12, 2017 3:44:10 PM | 74

Posted by: h | Jul 12, 2017 3:44:10 PM | 74

Goldstone is the key here. He laid the trap as Mercouris clearly points out in the articles both of you linked to.

Which means the Russian lawyer is a true victim here. Used as bait, without knowing. No wonder middlemen were disliked throughout history.

Posted by: hopehely | Jul 12, 2017 3:56:01 PM | 75

peter says:

To all those who express exasperation that a year of investigation has uncovered exactly nothing I say bear in mind that none of the principals have yet to testify before Mueller or the Senate Intelligence Committee...I drool at the prospect of Al Franken taking these clowns apart

why are you always harping on the awesomeness of congressional investigative committees? i mean, these goobers don't seem to mind being lied to by pretty much whoever they're grilling(Brennan, Clapper, etc.), do they?

you'll also recall that in 2001 they gave us the Patriot Act, and shirking their war-making powers unleashed the destruction of half the Muslim world.

i don't know if any of these things explains their 17% approval rating, but i certainly wouldn't look to them to take any bites out of crime.

Posted by: john | Jul 12, 2017 4:19:28 PM | 76

hopehely @75 - for now, that's my read. Especially given her robust defense that she lacked any info on Hillary and Russia. Crazy!

How many others did the intel community use this sinister trick on to surveil? Honestly, this should bother everyone throughout the world seeing the US FISA court is seen as a rubber stamp to the intel community. And don't believe for a moment GCHQ doesn't use the same trick. I believe this is what Snowden meant by 'Turnkey Tyranny' - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzQegCZBqnI

Posted by: h | Jul 12, 2017 4:20:45 PM | 77

h @75--

Then how to explain her presence and likely Emin's (and their great seats) at a Congressional Hearing that I linked to at The Duran? Although, your entire hypothesis seems very sound to me, and given DNC's machinations, correct. I wonder if there's any link with the Podesta or HRC emails?

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 12, 2017 4:27:16 PM | 78

@karlof1 - back in the day, when I went to my state house to observe committee meetings all I had to do was go through security and arrive early enough to get the seat I wanted. I don't believe it is any different at the U.S. Capitol in DC OR depending on who was testifying before the committee, as a courtesy, seats would be reserved for the testifier and their guest(s) if any. She and Emin may very well have been guests of someone, maybe McFaul, who was testifying before the committee that day.

Btw, that's all my thoughts are - a working hypothesis, a working theory. By no means should they be taken as fact. Btw, I marvel at the legacy media sources the Alt Left news uses to tout their all knowing Russian theories...they are still using CNN and NYT as reliable sources for this Russian crap. What planet are they living on? Maybe they thrive underwater on Kitezh.

Posted by: h | Jul 12, 2017 5:05:50 PM | 79

h @78--

Thanks for your well-meaning reply. But it certainly seems The Duran has someone feeding it info, for here's another: Veselnitskaya also has links with McCain and "posted an anti-Trump article to her Facebook page 4 days before meeting Trump," http://theduran.com/russian-lawyer-natalia-veselnitskaya-connected-to-john-mccain-in-stunning-photo-exposure/

As I said earlier, this entire affair is straight out of the show Chicago. And I thought Watergate was entertaining! What will be the next intrigue? Tune-in next week, or maybe even tomorrow!

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 12, 2017 5:14:35 PM | 80

The article source for The Duran contains some important material in the comments--apparently, Veselnitskaya was in the US illegally when she met with Don and attended the Congressional hearing--source: http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2017/07/how-did-that-russian-lawyer-get-to-stay-in-the-u-s.php?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 12, 2017 5:27:19 PM | 81

Yep, this freak show is something alright. You know when the Left has reached the height of crazy when they accuse a private citizen of treason for merely wanting to get dirt on their opponent from another private citizen who dwells in a country these neoloons have deemed evil. This crap coming out of the mouth of not only a Senator but one who almost became VP.

Posted by: h | Jul 12, 2017 5:32:43 PM | 82

@80 I'm starting to think Natalia Veselnitskaya is a plant. She was sent to the US to drive everybody crazy. When the Repubs and the DNC have finished eating each other Putin will take over the Whitehouse. Probably by invitation.

Posted by: dh | Jul 12, 2017 5:42:21 PM | 83

@ PavewayIV 62

I hear ya Pave. You've done your reading and there's not a thing I can dispute. I'm labeled a Hillary lover because I slag Trump. A zero sum game. Fact is, they're both bad dudes.

But Trump's the guy doing the job right now and he's starting to look like he could fuck up the Lord's Prayer. But because he's not Hillary and because he likes Putin you guys will give him a pass.

Whether it's Hillary and the deep state fucking with him or not, Trump's still dirty. From all reports he and his crew are not so blasé about their situation as some folks. As the drips keep dripping the mantra around here will change from "it's all bullshit" to "it doesn't matter, they all do it." The emotions about Trump on this board used to ebb and flow but since the big meeting in Hamburg his star is ascendant. That is, till the next time he shoves it up Putin's arse. Then it will be like after the cruise missile strike. You'll be calling him everything but a white man.


.

Posted by: peter | Jul 12, 2017 7:04:15 PM | 84

Adding to my comments @63 and @66

As crazy as it may seem, this witch hunt has reached another crescendo that once again provides Trump with the cover he needs to bomb something. I'm betting Syria (after another few ff). Press will laud his "decisive action" and his anguished apologists will claim that he was FORCED to bomb by the amorphous "Deep State".

EVERYONE KNOWS that "small hands" Trump can't act with integrity in the face of calumny. Right? He will clutch at any chance to push back the assault on his ego. LMFAO. This is the nonsense we are led to believe.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 12, 2017 8:02:34 PM | 85

The bottom line is that Trump is the princeps. Those who defy may pay a price. Toppling the prince adds value for opposition. Internal struggle occurring in USA power structure.
I

Posted by: Duck1 | Jul 12, 2017 9:24:48 PM | 86

A bit OT, but this Russia collusion nothing-burger has erased the Bomb NK nothing-burger from the headlines. Such haphazard switches from one MSM storm in a tea cup to another often remind me of the A A Milne poem Sneezles, which concludes...

Christopher Robin
Got up in the morning,
The sneezles had vanished away.
And the look in his eye
Seemed to say to the sky,
"Now, how to amuse them to-day?"

Karl Rove ("We're an Empire now") must be feeling quite smug...

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 13, 2017 1:09:17 AM | 87

Uh-oh...

Tweet:
Pro-Russia hacker site (or front) "Cyber Berkut" publishes alleged links between Ukraine and Clinton

Link to Cyber Berkut article:
https://cyber-berkut.org/en/

Hmmm... haven't digested all of this quite yet. While I would die to see the evil harpie frog-walked out by the FBI (or at least her evil minion Nuland), I'm not sure this is anywhere near that threshold. Anyone else have any thoughts?

Posted by: PavewayIV | Jul 13, 2017 3:42:21 AM | 88

PavewayIV @ 87:

The Democratic National Convention hired CrowdStrike to take charge of its cyber-security. This is the firm that made the charges that the Russian government hacked into the DNC's server.

CrowdStrike is run by Dmitri Alperovich who according to a Counterpunch article is also a senior fellow at The Atlantic Council.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/03/23/cybersecurity-firm-that-attributed-dnc-hacks-to-russia-may-have-fabricated-russia-hacking-in-ukraine/

The article at Counterpunch also states that the Atlantic Council is funded by Ukrainian billionaire Viktor Pinchuk who also donated millions to the Clinton Foundation. The Atlantic Council gave Hillary Clinton its Distinguished International Leadership award in 2013.

The DNC hired Alexandra Chalupa to coordinate and lead its "ethnic outreach" attempts during the 2016 Presidential election seasob. According to George Eliason, writing for WashingtonsBlog.com, in 2014, Chalupa and her sister founded Digital Maidan to raise money for the coup (specifically, the bullets used by the snipers) that brought down Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych's government in February 2014.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2016/12/russia-hacking-election-inside-story-2.html

Alexandra Chalupa was one of a number of DNC operatives who met with Ukrainian government officials during the elections to find dirt on Donald Trump that would discredit him and derail his campaign.
http://ntknetwork.com/trumps-lawyer-points-out-dnc-coordinated-with-ukraine/
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446

It seems that Chalupa's association with Hillary Clinton goes back a long way - Chalupa worked in the White House Office of Public Liaison during Bill Clinton's time as President.

I not only had the thoughts, I also remembered reading about CrowdStrike and its Ukrainian connections elsewhere.

Posted by: Jen | Jul 13, 2017 8:14:09 AM | 89

It seems that the "tempest" is dissipating. Day one, as observed in NYT: top story. Day two: continuation, a slew of articles. Day three:
DAVID LEONHARDT
Table Russia, Focus on Health Care
Ted Cruz spoke with reporters about the Senate health care bill on Wednesday.
Time for an update on the Senate’s health bill, and it’s not an encouraging one.

The summary is that Republicans make valiant efforts to snuff out more lives (and American lives at that, although of the lesser priority) than all wars in the Middle East.

By the way, there is some confusion about "connections" of Natalia Vesselnitskaya, attributing to her posting a picture of McCain that was twitted originally by Natalia Budayeva (A Buryat activist?). In fact, the two can be but the recent avatars of Natasha Fatale, partner of Boris Badenov in hundreds of movies, as you can see on YouTube.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 13, 2017 2:03:39 PM | 90

@89 Yes I think we can all relax now. Trump Junior's meeting with Natalia was just 'opposition research'.

Another constitutional crisis has been averted. Phew.

Posted by: dh | Jul 13, 2017 2:48:58 PM | 91

We discussed a bit how people understand history. There is a nice book quoting North American students as they write term papers or answer exam questions. My absolute favorite is "Greeks also had a goddess of whine, Diana Isis", indeed a perfect precursor and inspiration for the contemporary feminists. But what about the experts? E.g. "Dr. [Brad] Patty advised US Army units in Iraq on information operations as part of more than a decade's involvements in America's wars. His work has received formal commendations from the 30th Heavy Brigade, the 2nd Brigade, 1st Armored Division, the 3rd Infantry Division and the 1st Cavalry Division. Dr. Patty holds his PhD in Philosophy from the University of Georgia." To illuminate the masses, Dr. Patty has a website.

On that website, a recent post explains what is "the West", as the defense of the West was a topic discussed during Trump's visit to Poland. For example, in the celebrated book and movie Wizard of Oz the little people of the West have troubles with Wicked Witch of the East, which apparently stands for the western farmers suffering from the effect of Gold Standards imposed by the wicked bankers from NYC, Philadelphia etc. Or more directly, we can watch How the West was Won. No, this is not what was discussed. We need to cite some older history:

This brief history will sketch how the idea (of the West) came to be.

After the fall of Rome, for a while the Germanic kings continued to style themselves in the manner of Roman emperors. This included the adoption of Christianity, which continued after they no longer bothered to claim to be emperors of Rome. It was Germanic kings of this sort that fell before the Islamic conquest of Spain. [This is seriously garbled story about the Germanic kingdoms established in the western Roman empire in 5th century, none of these kings aspired to imperial title after the western empire expired. Moreover, most Germanic kings of that time were converted to Christianity earlier, with the lamentable consequence that they followed Arianism, like the emperor of the time of their conversion, and not Nicean creed (Catholicism), except for Franks who converted after they conquered Gaul ca. 500 AD. The next 200-300 years are so-called Dark Age, with very diminished level or literacy, quite primitive pictorial arts etc. But there was some important economic and military progress. Nevertheless, around 700 AD when the Arabs entered Spain and later southern France, Sicily and some bits of Italy, they possessed more advanced culture than the "West" which was quite barbaric.]

It was another set of similar Germanic Kings, celebrated in the epic Song of Roland, who finally stopped that conquest and established what they called the Holy Roman Empire. The name honored not an ethnic or racial connection to Rome, but both a religious and a philosophical one. Charlemagne pursued education reform and supported scholarship along the Roman lines (increasingly being carried out chiefly by the Catholic Church). [This is less garbled, namely, Charlemagne's father won a key battle with the ruler of Moor Spain, and got rid of the titular kings of Franks, creating new dynasty. Charlemagne created Spanish March which help preventing the Arabs from complete control of Spain. Charlemagne styled himself Roman Emperor, and as the empire fragmented, one part had the hold of the title, and the rulers that were not vassals of the emperor were kings as approved by the bishops of Rome rather than by tribal gatherings.]

Importantly, the explanation of Dr. Patty does not offer any reason for the "West", however defined, to have joint policies and least of all, joint military actions. And what actions? And events during a barbaric period of European history are a dubious inspiration. Do we need some single institution to determine which rulers/government are legitimate, Dei gratia, and which are not? Is it really beneficial to extract sufficient military contingents from all the rulers/governments to enable ... ??? Reconquest of Crimea??

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 13, 2017 3:47:21 PM | 92

A Gordian Knot: IC-Gate

Rob Goldstone is an agent for Emin Agalarov who was married to Leyla Aliyeva — social activist and elder daughter of the Azerbaijani President.

The Russian lawyer/lobbyist Natalia Veselnitskaya is not well known and has an obscure office in a southern suburb Ul. Lazareva Admirala of Moscow. She made headlines when she was hired by Denis Katsyv to lead his defence in Manhattan trial for money laundering of Prevezon Holdings Ltd. linked to the Magnitsky case. On May 12, 2017, US Attorney Joon Kim settled out of court, a 'sweet' deal some would say:

    The U.S. agreed to take $5.9 million to settle a money-laundering lawsuit tied to a $230 million Russian tax fraud, avoiding a trial that was set to begin mid May.

Veselnitskaya hired Fusion to do investigative work and Fusion shared her lobbying effort in the States to get rid of the sanctions enforced on Katsyv by the Magnitsky Act of Congress.

Continued below the fold ...

The meeting with Trump Jr. took place on June 9, 2016.

Fusion GPS signed a contract with the British Orbis Business Intelligence group of Chris Steel, and Sir Andrew Wood. Orbis leadership worked as MI6 spies in the British Embassy in Moscow during the 90s.

Orbis worked for Fusion from June until early November 2016.

Fusion had already worked for Republican candidate Rubio who was supported by Paul Singer. There was an 'opposition' dossier on candidate Trump build up during the primaries. Fusion has financial links with Clinton supporters.

Katsyv was part of the $230 million tax scam to defraud the Russian government/taxpayer.

The Katsyv family’s involvement in the laundering of money from Russia into Israeli banks reflects the use of weak international channels, and exposes the route of official money being sent abroad from Russia. Peter Katsyv and his son Denis Katsyv were charged in Israel in 2005 with laundering money through their Martash Investment accounts in the Israeli Hapoalim Bank. Petr Katsyv, who was the Russian Deputy Minister of Transportation, allegedly laundered, through the company and its bank accounts, 250 million Israeli shekels (about $64 million) that he skimmed off from the Russian government. Hapoalim Bank allowed for the money to be transferred, and according Sam Vaknin, there is evidence that Israel has turned a blind eye to the origin of money transferred from South Africa and Russia.

Katsyv ended up settling, and Martash Investment signed an agreement with the Israeli government in order to not be indicted for money laundering. In this agreement they were ordered to pay 35 million shekels (about $8 million). The settlement reflects the overall fear from the Katsyv family of an investigation, which could have led to the source of the money.

Summarizing:

British citizen Rob Goldstone is linked to Russian Emin Agalarov and via Leyla Aliyeva to the Azerbaijani President.

Rob Goldstone was used to arrange a meeting between Russian lawyer/lobbyist Natalia Veselnitskaya and the Trump campaign.

Veselnitskaya did not deliver any goods about Clinton as reported so far, and from my viewpoint, the meeting does not in any way proof "collusion" between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin.

Veselnitskaya is directly linked to Glenn Simpson, partner in Fusion GPS of Washington DC, an organization that worked for Republicans, Democrats and a Russian mobster [make that multiple, plural].

BREAKING NEWS: June 2016: Natalia Veselnitskaya showed up in Washington in the front row of a House Foreign Affairs Committee hearing on Russia policy, video | The Hill |

Fusion GPS is directly responsible and linked to British intelligence through former MI6 agents who worked in a spy nest in Moscow. I refer to their set of 16 "intelligence" documents simply as a "Dodgy Dossier" and so typically British.

Orbis is facing a lawsuit for libel. From the court proceedings Chris Steele has stated that the dossier was handed by Sir Andrew Woods to Mr. Kramer, assistant to Senator John McCain. Later Orbis gave an additional December memorandum to Fusion which was handed in hard copy to McCain and a senior UK government national security official.

The arranged meeting could just as well have been an entrapment by a Federal agency or IC. Trump has long been suspect of being too close to Moscow/Kremlin. Still I really have no idea what is going on!

A Gordian Knot unraveling .... never believe words coming from a spook!

Posted by: Oui | Jul 13, 2017 3:50:04 PM | 93

Ahh ... I missed that! In August 2016, British spy Christopher Steele briefed the F.B.I. about dealings of shadowy Russian figures and the Trump campaign! What a creep he is!

Comey Tried to Shield the F.B.I. From Politics. Then He Shaped an Election. | NY Times – Apr. 22, 2017 |

In late August, Mr. Comey and his deputies were briefed on a provocative set of documents about purported dealings between shadowy Russian figures and Mr. Trump’s campaign. One report, filled with references to secret meetings, spoke ominously of Mr. Trump’s “compromising relationship with the Kremlin” and threats of “blackmail.”

The reports came from a former British intelligence agent named Christopher Steele, who was working as a private investigator hired by a firm working for a Trump opponent. He provided the documents to an F.B.I. contact in Europe on the same day as Mr. Comey’s news conference about Mrs. Clinton.

...
Just a few weeks later, in late September, Mr. Steele, the former British agent, finally heard back from his contact at the F.B.I. It had been months, but the agency wanted to see the material he had collected “right away,” according to a person with knowledge of the conversation. What prompted this message remains unclear.

Mr. Steele met his F.B.I. contact in Rome in early October, bringing a stack of new intelligence reports. One, dated Sept. 14, said that Mr. Putin was facing “fallout” over his apparent involvement in the D.N.C. hack and was receiving “conflicting advice” on what to do.

The agent said that if Mr. Steele could get solid corroboration of his reports, the F.B.I. would pay him $50,000 for his efforts, according to two people familiar with the offer. Ultimately, he was not paid.

Posted by: Oui | Jul 13, 2017 3:55:06 PM | 94

Did MI-6 - CIA Collude with Chris Steele to Entrap Trump?

Today's gem:

Why Akhmetshin and Fusion GPS Should Be Investigated

A Gordian Knot unraveling .... never believe words coming from a spook!

Posted by: Oui | Jul 13, 2017 3:56:33 PM | 95

Update!

Former Soviet GRU officer at meeting with Donald Trump Jr. and Russian lawyer| NBC News – July 14, 2017 |

The lobbyist, identified as Rinat Akhmetshin, denies any current ties to Russian spy agencies. He accompanied the lawyer, Natalia Veselnitskaya, to the June 2016 meeting at Trump Tower attended by Donald Trump Jr., Jared Kushner, the president's son-in-law; and Paul Manafort, former chairman of the Trump campaign. Born in Russia, Akhmetshin served in the Soviet military and emigrated to the U.S., where he holds dual citizenship.

Posted by: Oui | Jul 14, 2017 2:58:09 PM | 96

@97 That video was cut off just before Begala was taken away in a straitjacket.

Posted by: dh | Jul 14, 2017 10:06:26 PM | 98

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