Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 22, 2017

U.S. Torture, A Saudi Coup And ISIS Crimes - "By, With And Through Allies"

The U.S. military and/or the CIA outsourced parts of their ongoing torture campaign in Yemen to the United Arab Emirates, reports AP. Some "interrogations" are done in the presence of U.S. personal and on U.S. ships:

MUKALLA, Yemen (AP) — Hundreds of men swept up in the hunt for al-Qaida militants have disappeared into a secret network of prisons in southern Yemen where abuse is routine and torture extreme — including the “grill,” in which the victim is tied to a spit like a roast and spun in a circle of fire, an Associated Press investigation has found.

Senior American defense officials acknowledged Wednesday that U.S. forces have been involved in interrogations of detainees in Yemen but denied any participation in or knowledge of human rights abuses.
...
At one main detention complex at Riyan airport in the southern city of Mukalla, former inmates described being crammed into shipping containers smeared with feces and blindfolded for weeks on end. They said they were beaten, trussed up on the “grill,” and sexually assaulted. According to a member of the Hadramawt Elite, a Yemeni security force set up by the UAE, American forces were at times only yards away.

There have long been rumors in Yemen that detainees were transported to U.S. ships off the coast for intense "interrogations":

@BaFana3 - 3:42am · 6 May 2016
All on #Yemen now : US aircraft carrier, 2 naval destroyers, amphibious ready group & Marine expeditionary unit. That's near 15,000 troops
Now I know whose ships the captured AQAP militants are being ferried to from Al Mukalla, Hadhramaut.

AP now:

A Yemeni officer who said he was deployed for a time on a ship off the coast said he saw at least two detainees brought to the vessel for questioning. The detainees were taken below deck, where he was told American “polygraph experts” and “psychological experts” conducted interrogations.
...
Two senior Yemen officials, one in Hadi’s Interior Ministry and another in the 1st Military District, based in Hadramawt province where Mukalla is located, also said Americans were conducting interrogations at sea, as did a former senior security official in Hadramawt.
...
Former detainees and one Yemen official provided the AP with the names of five suspects held at black sites who were interrogated by Americans.

The UAE had been part of the CIA's "black sites" torture apparatus. Its agents are thereby well trained. The U.S. military and/or the CIA now seem to have outsourced (vid) most of the "dirty" stuff to them. That does not make them less culpable.

The Obama administration has called this acting "by, with and through" allies. The Trump administration continues with the scheme.

The tortured "militants" were most likely not al-Qaeda chaps. Al-Qaeda in the Arab Peninsula held the harbor city of Mukalla in Yemen. The UAE "liberated" the city in April 2016 by making a deal with AQAP and letting them go. It is allied with the group while fighting the Yemeni Houthi. If the U.S. torture crews believe that they are "interrogating" real "al-Qaeda" they are hoodwinked by the UAE operators.

The U.S. military is, of course, denying all torture accusations and the CIA is, of course, not commenting, but denigrating the accusers. We have heard such denials before.

---
Yesterday an al-Saud family clown prince replaced another al-Saud family clown prince to replace the old al-Saud family king who will be offed soon. This in a country named after the al-Saud family. It is change you can believe in. The soon to be dictator-king Muhammad bin Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud, the guy who has debt-to-GDP, is fawned over in U.S. media. That is no wonder. He has lot of money and no idea of its value. He paid €500 million for a used ship that had cost only €300 million when it was build six years earlier. Some of his money will drop here or there when a journalist writes a pretty piece about him. If the journo is really good at it s/he will get payed off in some CIA endorsed weapon deal with the Gulf sheiks. Bin Salman is not very bright. He visited Israel and is in constant contact with Israeli officials. His development program for Saudi Arabia, based on austerity, was written by McKinsey consultants and is thereby likely to fail. With his extreme anti-Iranian stand he looks like a mere U.S.-Israeli puppet.


bigger

The 26 million people he rules over will not like either. Many Arab peninsula citizens will want to see his head on a pike. The House of Saud is now a house of cards destined to fall.

The rise and installation of Muhammad bin Salman as Saudi King is, in part, a project of his mentor, the Emirati clown prince Mohammed bin Zayed. Bin Zayed rules the UAE. "By, with and through" allies comes to mind.

---
The Saudi rulers sponsored, together with Qatar, the ISIS takeover of Iraq and parts of Syria. They also helped finance the Clinton campaign. The Islamic State terrorists just blew up the 845 year old al-Nuri mosque in Mosul. ISIS leader Baghdadi had declared himself Caliph in that mosque and the Iraqi military was on the verge of re-taking it.

The NYT report of the mosque destruction calls the the ISIS nihilists "militants":

Almost from the beginning of its rule, the Islamic State systematically destroyed or damaged one important monument or shrine after another[...] In Mosul’s library, militants burned thousands of old books and manuscripts.

Another NYT report recently called Bernie Sanders followers "militant":

The growing tension between the party’s ascendant militant wing and Democrats competing in conservative-leaning terrain, was on vivid, split-screen display over the weekend. In Chicago, Senator Bernie Sanders led ...

Demanding single-payer health care is obviously comparable to the sectarian massacring of thousands or to blowing up century old places of worship. Only "militants" do such. But don't you dare to compare Saudi sponsoring of ISIS and of Hillary Clinton. Even when the Saudis are doing both.

Drawing connections from the UAE/CIA torture in Yemen, the UAE mentoring of the coming Saudi king, Saudi sponsoring of the CIA endorsed Clinton campaign, the U.S./Saudi caused famine, as well as the terror of ISIS in not kosher - even when there are direct lines between all of these. Trump is, by the way, no better than Clinton in this. His endorsement of the aggressive new Saudi ruler while a U.S. jet shoots down a Syrian plane which is attacking ISIS is likely not just a coincidence.

But its the progressives who are "militant".

Posted by b on June 22, 2017 at 06:47 AM | Permalink

Comments

So this is the western values Nato, EU, US want to upheld?

‘US grills inmates in secret UAE-run jails in Yemen’
http://presstv.ir/Detail/2017/06/22/526151/Yemen-torture-jail-US-UAE

This report will be buried ASAP by the presstitue media.

Posted by: Anon | Jun 22, 2017 8:24:10 AM | 1

Over and over and over again we hear of outsourcing after training..
is outsourcing or is training; the target objective?

Does the outsourcer pay for the conduct of the outsourced activities, or
are the outsourced activity costs realized in the paid for training costs?
In other words, have the trainers been hired to conduct the outsourced activities through trainees as proxies; or are the outsourced activities independent uses of the trained personnel?

Training fees are earned before outsourcing occurs? I wonder if it is outsourcing activities or activities of the sponsor buyers of training, using their new trainees to accomplished the non training activities? Seems to me you are suggesting the trainers are in the business of training and they would train whomever paid the training fees..

Posted by: flunkerbunker | Jun 22, 2017 8:41:18 AM | 2

=>> flunkerbunker | Jun 22, 2017 8:41:18 AM | 2
Surely this whole entire comment is sheer unadulterated 100% USDA Grade "A" Gobbeldygook.

Unreadable.

Posted by: blues | Jun 22, 2017 8:56:07 AM | 3

****************
** Hey !!
** Virus warning !
****************

I clicked on the link embedded in:

"If the journo is really good at it s/he will get payed off"

and I got an error regarding a script
then my entire screen went blue and the words
"preparing security options"
displayed

Then my pc hung.
I subsequently ran various scans on my pc and all *appears* well.

Just saying...
Hold your breath if you click on that link and then report back, thanks.

Posted by: librul | Jun 22, 2017 9:15:28 AM | 4

@ librul #4

Just checked out the link. It appears to be an AP article. No problem on my device, but then I do not run Windows. Cough, cough. ;-)

Here is the link:
https://apnews.com/d71bf1b8c2304329866441ec4089760f

Posted by: Michael | Jun 22, 2017 9:35:58 AM | 5

Thanks Libtard...

The only suspect links are those few joining the maggot like cells so unfortunately termed as a brain in your evidently oh so soft head.

As therapy for your condition perhaps you could start eating a handful of shit a day.

Cheers

Posted by: Amanita Amanita | Jun 22, 2017 9:37:41 AM | 6

Behind the sweet smile, it is clear that MBS's level of intelligence is not in doubt. He is very limited. I doubt he has the potential of improving his IQ.
Young Saudis are fed up with the geriatric ruling they have accepted for decades. They love the idea of having a non-Western educated, charming, young and handsome leader.
So they don't look much further in the guy other than his youth, his energy, and his interest in 'reforming' the country.
Their enthusiasm will be short-lived. The religious mafia that controls the country in the background will oppose any reform and we will see if MBS's popularity will stand all the failures he will encounter.
The USA will convince MBS that only an alliance with Israel will tame Iran. Therefore MBS will be pushed by the USA to make a deal with Israel as a condition for its military support. He may end up like Sadat who dared to antagonize the religious establishment in Egypt by making peace with Israel.
Good luck MBS!

Posted by: virgile | Jun 22, 2017 9:41:31 AM | 7

18 Israeli Fighter Jets Deployed in S. Arabia to Prevent Coup

gotta be an iranian psy-op, right? the saudis might be that stupid ... but the israelis?

Posted by: jfl | Jun 22, 2017 9:41:33 AM | 8

Thankyou Michael...I checked out link too and it is as you have just stated...a bonafide AP link...my Android and iPhone devices emerged unscathed.

Posted by: Amanita Amanita | Jun 22, 2017 9:46:05 AM | 9

King Faisal, supporter of Palestine, became too demanding in 1974. He was killed in 1975. Official story - One of Faisal's nephews, after returning to SA from a trip to the US, shot and killed his uncle king. Official Story - nephew was beheaded.

This craven batch of successors are kin and they do what is required of them by the west.

Of course, human rights issues are a sick joke. SA is member of the UN Human Rights Committee!

Posted by: fastfreddy | Jun 22, 2017 9:49:27 AM | 10

@8

that's a farsnews article i saw at sf ...


Nearly 3.3 million Yemeni people, including 2.1 million children, are currently suffering from acute malnutrition. The Al-Saud aggression has also taken a heavy toll on the country’s facilities and infrastructure, destroying many hospitals, schools, and factories.

The WHO now classifies Yemen as one of the worst humanitarian emergencies in the world alongside Syria, South Sudan, Nigeria and Iraq.


humanitarian emergency? where's the r2p nato crowd? right 2 protect/resources 2 plunder - either way it's got saudi arabia written all over it. so how come nato hasn't bombed saudi arabia yet? syria, south sudan, nigeria, and iraq ... at least 3 of the four are directly attributable to the usofa. so who's the world's leading terrorist?

Posted by: jfl | Jun 22, 2017 9:50:11 AM | 11

Set the clock ticking on the al-Saud clan

Universally, every citizen of Saudi Arabia that I've ever talked to has unreserved hatred for "their" royals. I assume that only members of that family feel differently. Even people from the elite who have benefited from the monarchy harbor no love. The masses of poor in the country absolutely despise these clowns.

Let's run down a quick list of MSB's achievements:

Cakewalk war in Yemen to reinstall compliant dictator -- current clusterfuck

'Prosperity by Austerity' economic plan -- incipient clusterfuck

Cutting in the Royal Line -- probable clusterfuck

Hoes before Bros coddling up to Israel against Iran -- guaranteed clusterfuck

I'm not sure it's popcorn time just yet, but if I were a Saudi Prince, I'd be moving all my non-earned cash to Swiss accounts

Posted by: Don Wiscacho | Jun 22, 2017 10:37:05 AM | 12

One man becomes ill for some unknown reason while imprisoned in a foreign country, is repatriated on "compassonate grounds" and then dies, and the whole world is supposed to be shocked and upset. What b reports above..............

Posted by: Ghostship | Jun 22, 2017 10:42:47 AM | 13

@8, stupid Israelis - Don't underestimate the power of Hasbara. "I can prove the monkey talked" -CCR

Posted by: ruralito | Jun 22, 2017 10:45:29 AM | 14

Highly Graphic Video’s – White Helmets Film Themselves Participating in Beheading’s of Syrian Soldiers

https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/06/21/highly-graphic-videos-white-helmets-film-themselves-participating-in-beheadings-of-syrian-soldiers/

Direct Terrorist Collusion: Over One Dozen Videos Capture White Helmets Working Side-By-Side With Terrorist Groups in Syria

https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/08/direct-jihadist-collusion-over-one-dozen-videos-capture-white-helmets-working-side-by-side-with-terrorist-groups/

Posted by: Liam | Jun 22, 2017 10:49:07 AM | 15

I see the Sauds as trashmen: Their job is to take US trash-cash in payment for their hydrocarbons and recycle it via weapons and T-bond purchases--which are also trash.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 22, 2017 11:01:24 AM | 16

Thanks Michael #5 for the mature response.

Posted by: librul | Jun 22, 2017 11:03:38 AM | 17

@8
There is also a possibility that Israel is preparing an attack against Iran. The whole situation around Qatar and Saudi Arabia is quite suspicious. Dispute among family members? Gulf states are infiltrated by the CIA, they have no an independent foreign policy. So, what is going on? Maybe a big war is coming. Qatar is located near Iran so Iran can heavily damage Qatari infrastructure if war break out. Because of that Qatar pretends to be Saudi's enemy.

It can be a really big war. Turkish army at the same time could try to attack Aleppo. US troops from bases in Jordan can move towards Deir Ezzor. At the end of the day Turkey seizes Aleppo and Idlib Governorate (Ottoman Empire), Kurdistan is created (from Raqqa through Deir Ezzor to Kirkuk and Iran), Iranian facilities and plants don't exist anymore (regime change also possible), the Golan Height and part of Syria are under Israeli control. The dissolution of Syria - that was the plan from the very beginning. Today this sounds rather as a political fiction (because of Russia), nonetheless something strange is looming on the horizon there.

Posted by: political fiction | Jun 22, 2017 11:12:12 AM | 18

Posted by: librul | Jun 22, 2017 9:15:28 AM | 4

I clicked on the link embedded in:

"If the journo is really good at it s/he will get payed off"

Somebody should tell AP their website has been hacked - I clicked on that link and was confronted with a ridiculous piece of fake news that a journalist, Jay Soloman, had been sacked by the always honest and ethical WSJ for being dishonest and unethical. I mean. how can this be? I must think of it at least half a day, before I can at all comprehend it.

Posted by: Ghostship | Jun 22, 2017 11:12:31 AM | 19

@Don Wiscacho | Jun 22, 2017 10:37:05 AM | 12

If you've been following the "economic stimulation" plan in US infrastructure, Orange One may provide the Wahabis a stake in the privatized road and infrastructure in the US. As he flees the desert wasteland after the oil markets crash, he will be able to own a "piece of the rock" and continue to bilk Americans out of their livelihood in into perpetuity via tolls, and could retire in splendor in Beverly Hills or Palm Beach. It's the "free market" at work.

Posted by: Michael | Jun 22, 2017 11:14:18 AM | 20

@ karlof1 | Jun 22, 2017 11:01:24 AM | 16

Exactly. I would add that they also use some of that "trash-cash" to pay idiots all over the world to follow their satanic wahabi cult.

Posted by: ex-SA | Jun 22, 2017 11:22:10 AM | 21

A report of the Russians using an S-300 to shoot down a US Global Hawk over the eastern Med. US and Russian military are silent. There is a report that a Global Hawk has crashed .... in California.

https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.en/colonelcassad.livejournal.com/3497216.html

Posted by: Anonymous | Jun 22, 2017 11:34:05 AM | 22

Normally the US comes to the rescue of ISIS in Syria. Now it looks like ISIS is coming to the rescue of US forces. There is a report that ISIS is trying to break the recently created SAA/Hezbollah/Iranian buffer zone east of the US base near al Tanf. The US forces were there supposeldy to attack ISIS. The buffer zone removed that and effectively any need for the forces to be there in the first place. ISIS trying to break the buffer in order to allow the US forces to attack ISIS - a self-licking kebab.

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/pictures-isis-storms-iraqi-border-crossing-near-us-military-base-map-update/

Posted by: Anonymous | Jun 22, 2017 11:39:17 AM | 23

Back in the days, the Syrians offered to interrogate (presumably at 'enhanced' level) some people renditioned from Afghanistan that were sold to the US as members of whichever Islamic group the US was supposed to be fighting at the time. The Syrians presumably did this to try to get in the good books of the US (as did Iran when it captured al Qaeda operatives escaping Afghanistan into Iran). The Syrians interrogated these people and concluded they were innocent. I beleive the US still has these innocent people in their Gulag at Guantanamo.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jun 22, 2017 11:46:17 AM | 24

I have a strong feeling that it's Saudi that will go bang first. Austerity on the Saudis just doesn't work. It's only the money which is keeping the tribes loyal to the Najdis. If Al Saud can't pay (or if the Kinsey consultants are advising him not to pay (as if they would understand the politics of Saudi)), why should all the others stick with the Sauds? I was very struck by the photo of what the Saudis have down to the Shi'ite town of Awamiyyah in the Eastern Province. They've walled it off with those 4m high concrete blocks, with only one checkpoint for going in or out. It's a complete siege. MbS must be getting more and more paranoiac, and now he's carried out his coup to take over the King.

Posted by: Laguerre | Jun 22, 2017 11:52:38 AM | 25

Who needs horror movies when we have real life torture by the world's leading country and a horror clown grabbing a crown?

Posted by: Pnyx | Jun 22, 2017 12:03:41 PM | 26

USA & Israel are DECOYS and BULLIES for the Rothschild-Zionists (London/Paris bankers families). It will be the British people that will pay the highest price for 300 years waging wars as "useful idiots" of the Rothschild-Zionists. London will be polluted with plutonium, strontium, cobalt, thorium, lithium, etc. for 10.000 years to the life age of our sun.

https://youtu.be/T2I66dHbSRA
Hiroshima, Nagasaki, London, Paris, Israel, ?

Posted by: Thucydides | Jun 22, 2017 12:10:39 PM | 27

the usa as torture supporter? why am i not surprised? they have been torturing the planet literally and figuratively for quite a few years... the revelations of manning was enough of an eye opener for anyone paying attention.. the thought that they would change their ways is a joke...

@25 laguerre... yeah, those pics of the shite town in saudi arabia stuck in my mind as well.. things ain't well in the saudi headchopper/torture paradise that the usa/isael and etc have sidled up with.. this new kid as the head of the saudi money dictatorship ain't all that inspiring either..

Posted by: james | Jun 22, 2017 12:15:53 PM | 28

As perceptive as he is, b stll can't bring himself to see that Trump is a Clinton protege and Sanders was a Clinton sheep-dog.

>> How Things Work: Betrayal by Faux Populist Leaders

>> Taken In: Fake News Distracts Us From Fake Election

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 22, 2017 12:16:05 PM | 29

@karlof1 #16

Their job is to take US trash-cash in payment for their hydrocarbons and recycle it via weapons and T-bond purchases--which are also trash.

Sounds like you may appreciate a tidying up. I will be happy to take any such trash off your hands. I will collect any such cash and Treasury notes that you may have in your possession or about your premises. I will be in-and-out in a flash, so that you and your family will barely know that I was there. Then neither I nor your trash will be a nuisance in any way. I provide this service free of charge. (And even if I did charge, what form would payment take?) How's that for trash man?

Posted by: Martin Finnucane | Jun 22, 2017 12:18:53 PM | 30

Michael @20

I haven't heard about cutting the Wahhabis in on road privatization in the US but it wouldn't surprise me in the least. Donald and MBS in many ways are cut from a similar cloth. Birds of a feather...

Posted by: Don Wiscacho | Jun 22, 2017 12:22:52 PM | 31

@18
@political fiction

They need Idlip and Aleppo if they want a land connection between Israel and the EU. Lebanon will be fragmentized and Hezbollah destroyed (Balkanization).

Posted by: Thucydides | Jun 22, 2017 12:33:49 PM | 32

political fiction @18

Yes, there is something fishy with the Qatar-Saudi spat. It may well be that they want to remove themselves as a target as you speculate.

My first thought was that (any) conflict in the Gulf is an excuse to add military resources. Also, Iran's support for the Qatari's could be spun as "aggression" and used to unite Sunnis under Saudi leadership (we see the setting up of a false choice all the time: your with *us* or you're with the 'terrorists'). I wrote about it here: Saudi-Qatar: Gambit du Roi.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 22, 2017 12:35:34 PM | 33

That WSJ-UAE-CIA arms deal story is pretty enlightening:

Two other Denx partners — ex-CIA employees Gary Bernsten and Scott Modell — told the AP that Solomon was involved in discussing proposed deals with Azima at the same time he continued to cultivate the businessman as a source for his stories for the Journal. . .

In an April 2015 email, Azima wrote to Solomon about a proposal for a $725 million air-operations, surveillance and reconnaissance support contract with the United Arab Emirates that would allow planes to spy on activity inside nearby Iran. Solomon was supposed to ferry the proposal to UAE government representatives at a lunch the following day, the email said.

“We all wish best of luck to Jay on his first defense sale,” Azima wrote to Solomon, Bernsten and Modell.

Under the proposed UAE deal, Azima’s firms were to manage specially equipped surveillance planes to monitor activity in Iran, Syria, Iraq and Yemen.

UAE has long-standing ties to various covert and overt U.S.-led operations in the region. Just another puppet client state of the empire. See 2003-2010, Wikileaks (search for "MbZ", State Department code for UAE's clown prince)
2003 UAE POISED FOR IRAQ RECONSTRUCTION OPPORTUNITIES"

This one in particular:
2010 https://search.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/10ABUDHABI69_a.html

(S/NF) The UAE is one of our closest partners in the Middle East and one of our most useful friends worldwide.
-- Al-Dhafra Air Force Base is the high altitude ISR hub for the AOR, and supports 50 percent of aerial refueling in the AOR.
-- Ports in Dubai and Fujairah are the logistics backbone for the U.S. Fifth. Jebel Ali (Dubai) is the most frequented USN liberty port after Norfolk.
-- Minhad Air Base is a critical hub for Coalition/ISAF partners in Afghanistan, including the Australians, Dutch, Canadians, Brits and Kiwis.
-- The UAE is a cash customer with FMS [foreign military sales] sales in excess of $11 billion. Commercial sales have an equivalent value. An additional $12 billion of FMS cases are in development with approximately the same volume of commercial sales in the works.
-- The UAE recently purchased nine Patriot batteries, and expects to move forward on the purchase of THAAD as the first non US customer.
-- The UAE currently commands CJTF-152 (Arabian Gulf) and maintains an active exercise schedule with U.S. (Red Flag) and other multi-lateral partners.
-- The UAE recently hosted an AFCENT survey team to consider U.S. access to Liwa (Safran) Air Base in support of contingency operations.
-- Additionally, the UAE is considering hosting the Regional Integrated Air and Missile Defense Center of Excellence.

Posted by: nonsense factory | Jun 22, 2017 1:05:53 PM | 34

Not really much new about CIA instigated torture, the purpose of which as Orwell truly determined is only to torture. The rest of western intrigue in the Middle East and various other locales around the world is all part of the business plan. That plan "is to inventory and control: all finances, land, water, plants, animals, minerals, energy, means of production, construction, transportation, information, education, policing, human habitation and all humans on this planet" - Rosa Koire

Posted by: BRF | Jun 22, 2017 1:48:47 PM | 36

@Pnyx 26 "the world's leading country"? Where would that be?

Posted by: Rhisiart Gwilym | Jun 22, 2017 1:49:23 PM | 37

@ 18 Political Fiction
Not to be too paranoid but tomorrow and Saturday are moonless nights around the world and the tweeter-in-chief, whose son-in-law is just back from a cozy visit with Netanyahu, loves surprises.

Posted by: mls | Jun 22, 2017 1:57:15 PM | 38

Martin Finnucane @30--

"Sounds like you may appreciate a tidying up."

Certainly, but not the sort you proposed. More like a complete game-changer of the sort outlined in this fine overview, https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/06/20/leading-multipolar-revolution-how-russia-china-creating-new-world-order.html

ex-SA @21--

I refrained from mentioning the Wahhabbi trash cult; but yes, like Hitlerism, it too must go into the dustbin. It appears that trash cult is interwoven into Zionist and Outlaw US Empire philosophies since all three promote a terroristic, oligarchic elite rule and policy toward neighbors and share their own version of Manifest Destiny stemming from their common Abrahamic roots.

The author of the linked article easily presumes the Outlaw US Empire will continue to use terrorists as its preferred foreign policy tool for the foreseeable future since it shows no signs of terminating its announced goal of Full Spectrum Domination, a policy energetically opposed by the SCO and suite of other organizations the author lists. Just as Hitlerian Germany and Tojo's Japan were doomed to failure in WW2 due to the overwhelming amount of resources available to United Nations forces, the Outlaw US Empire is doomed to defeat thanks to the overwhelming resource base of the Multipolar Alliance and its superior Win-Win philosophy of relations.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 22, 2017 2:12:22 PM | 39

Old Saudi King and Queen oil fields are water/gas injection.
The coastal desalination plants are key to keeping these old
Fields producing.
Iran's Ballistic Missile strike on ISUS in Deir Ezzor from
100s klms away - Iran to Syria. ...proves Iran can strike
Gulf states along with ships in the Persian Gulf.
If Saudi go to war with Iran...they can kiss the desalination
And power plants goodbye.
The old oil fields would collapse,
The end of Idiot Arabia.

Posted by: Brad | Jun 22, 2017 2:30:13 PM | 40

In a thread with the the word "Torture" in its title, shouldn't we be exploring the role torture plays in radicalising Ter'rists? Wasn't one of History's recent Ter'rist masterminds water-boarded umpteen dozen times to tip him over the edge? The only thing we know for certain about torture is that it's a great way to extract false confessions. Can it also be used to inspire false beliefs - keeping in mind that torture is conducted in a Totally Controlled Environment in which the victim "knows" only what the torturer wants/needs him to know?
I don't buy all the Jew-controlled MSM's horseshit about people being radicalised by hare-brained hokum on the www, or the ravings of a local imam.
There's got to be more to it...

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jun 22, 2017 2:50:04 PM | 41

mls | Jun 22, 2017 1:57:15 PM | 37

Not to be too paranoid but tomorrow and Saturday are moonless nights around the world

Yesterday was the longest day of the year in the Northern Hemisphere.

Posted by: Ghostship | Jun 22, 2017 3:13:39 PM | 42

@18 pf and those responding to the post... paranoia runs supreme... lets all join in, lol...

Posted by: james | Jun 22, 2017 3:20:16 PM | 43

i 2nd hoarsewhisperers post... terrorists in training - those who go thru the cia/ etc torture process... need more 'moderate headchoppers' to give weapons to..

Posted by: james | Jun 22, 2017 3:21:50 PM | 44


soloman salman
shchulmann
scwartz
donmeh whatever
my life already

Israel Deployed 18 Fighter Jets To Saudi Arabia To "Prevent A Coup":


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-22/israel-deployed-18-fighter-jets-saudi-arabia-prevent-coup-fars

Posted by: norman wisdom | Jun 22, 2017 3:25:54 PM | 45

Hoarsewhisperer @40--

Yes, very valid points. Given the vast amount of torture that allegedly occurred in Vietnam during its very long war for independence, what became of all the potential terrorists? What of all those tortured within Afghanistan, Pakistan and India. Then of course, we have the longstanding Gulag System begun by Tsars and expanded by War Communism; Solzhenitsyn never mentions anyone being radicalized by their Gulag time in his trilogy on the subject. If torture breeds terrorists, then South America ought to be awash with them thanks to the decades of Outlaw US Empire directed torture there.

In a very high-profile film seen by many millions, Luke Skywalker gets radicalized by the presumed torture and subsequent immolation of his kin and becomes what the Galactic Empire/ Outlaw US Empire would consider a terrorist. His own personal torture is knowing his father is his enemy, yet he cannot kill him since he senses redemption within him. More Hollywood; the Outlaw Josey Wales continues his fight against what he perceives as terrorist Red Legs well after the Civil War ends, while the Red Legs and their government connections consider Josey to be a terrorist--radicalized twice through massacres.

So, is the torture something seen/witnessed, personally experienced, or both? Can a system be terroristic, such as slavery, colonialism, debt peonage, apartheid, and thus provide the required radicalization to resist/destroy them--such resistance being seen by the system's controllers as terrorism? Just how fine a line is there between the genuine Freedom Fighter and Terrorist? Within the Outlaw US Empire, the Black Panther Movement certainly sew themselves as genuine Freedom Fighters, but Hoover, Nixon, and such clearly saw them as terrorist threats to their system of control--Nelson Mandela was named a terrorist for that very reason by Reagan while calling al-Ciada Freedom Fighters.

As a former teacher, I like to fallback on a truism brought forth by Rodgers, Hammerstein, and Logan in the Broadway musical South Pacific tune You've Got to Be Carefully Taught, which the Powers That Be tried to get them to drop, thus providing further incentive to include it--lyrics here, http://www.metrolyrics.com/youve-got-to-be-carefully-taught-lyrics-south-pacific.html So, unless you can become enlightened like Lt. Cable in the musical or myself, you're very likely to hate/stigmatize those you were socialized--taught, indoctrinated, through delivery systems like church, school, propaganda, etc. Yet another question: What differs between a Banzai Charge and a coordinated assault by several people wearing bomb belts--are they both terrorist acts or just one?

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 22, 2017 3:42:22 PM | 46

13 Syrian families have spent weeks at the Algeria-Morroco border with neither of the two countries accepting them. In Ramadam. How long will the nonsense continue for states to claim they have a religion?
Yesterday at the UN, the US and UK showed a unique stance against ascribing to the African forces to be deployed a mandate to fight terrorism in West Africa. Why? They are the only ones who can label who is a terrorist?

Posted by: Mina | Jun 22, 2017 3:46:50 PM | 47

Part of the Saudi Qatar spat seems to be a re-alignment of Saudi and GCC behind the SDF -Kurd plus ISIS with haircut - and whatever the US call their proxies in the south. Moving from outing the Syrian government to a land grab for whatever they can, with a land bridge to Jordan and a focus on Iran?

Posted by: Peter AU | Jun 22, 2017 3:47:20 PM | 48

I am not sure that I want to do a Debs-style rant on Saudi Arabia (not to criticise Debs, whose rants I greatly appreciate), but I increasingly think that Saudi is in serious danger of implosion.

Passing over the 18th century Saudi empire, the point where the Saudis made the alliance with Muhammad ibn Abd ul-Wahhab, the real Saudi state began in 1908, when Ibn Saud, Abd al-Aziz Al Sa'ud, took the Dasmak fort in Riyadh. After the WW1, where he was not particularly supported by the Brits, he launched a successful war of conquest, supported by a bunch of jihadis, called muhajirun. These jihadis were later suppressed by violence in the 1930s. In 1925 they took Mecca from the Hussainis (Faisal and Lawrence's lot), and spread out to the borders of Yemen, including Najran by 1935. Note that the state was, and is, called in Arabic, al-mamlaka al-'arabiyya al-sa'udiyya, the Arab Kingdom of Al Sa'ud. There is no sense of nationality; it is what the Saudi family has conquered. They've since tried to introduce the notion of nationality, with doubtful success.

In the old days, that is late antiquity and medieval Islamic times, the way you got the loyalty of the tribes was by simply paying them in gold. Which has only been repeated in the oil-rich today.

What you have today in what is called Saudi Arabia, is a number of peoples who haven't been integrated into a nation, but been paid to keep quiet, under the domination of the Najdis from Riyadh. The Hijazis in the west aren't particularly wahhabi, but accept the situation. The Najranis are Isma'ilis,and had a small revolt in 2000 according to the War Nerd. The Shi'a in the east are sitting on the only oil-fields, and are the greatest problem for the Saudi regime, as mentioned above.

However we now have the new young punk, Muhammad ibn Salman, who now has control of his father (who has perhaps dementia), and has appointed himself crown prince. He has already launched one war against Yemen, and a second quasi-war against Qatar, apart from the Saudi activities in Syria. He's quite like Saddam, it can't end well. The weak point is the loyalty of the Saudi people. Why stick with Riyadh if they're not paying? Mbs wants to introduce efficiency savings, under the advice of Kinsey, without apparently any idea of how Saudi works.

Posted by: Laguerre | Jun 22, 2017 4:37:53 PM | 49

A new twist may soon allow SCO and CSTO members Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan troops into Syria in the form of Peace Keepers. From Ria Novosti--Sputnik in Russian: "The head of the State Duma Defense Committee, Vladimir Shamanov, confirmed to RIA Novosti that Russia is negotiating with Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan to send their military to Syria." SCO and CSTO have a heavy anti-terrorism emphasis, and including troops from those nations would provide excellent training for the new Daesh offensive likely to emerge from Afghanistan. Apparently, Turkey agrees with the proposal and has provided its own related to Idlib, https://ria.ru/syria/20170622/1497104098.html

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 22, 2017 4:41:01 PM | 50

If you are born into a society wherein headchopping is the standard for capital punishment, then it would seem to be a normal act to you. (Also the chopping off of hands, noses, etc.) Now if you are also very poor (which is generally the case) then a representative of the CIA, for example could entice you with a fat paycheck like you've never seen ($400 per month). You might also be inclined to perform other tasks for bonus money. Further - important inspiration is derived from religious and cultural differences btw you and your designated foes.

The extraction of false confessions does serve to legitimize torture, because a false confession is as good as a legitimate confession when the goal from the start is to uphold a pre-determined false narrative.

Posted by: fast freddy | Jun 22, 2017 4:48:38 PM | 51

Laguerre @48--

Andrew Korybko has a different view of what MBS's rise means for Russia and China, https://sputniknews.com/columnists/201706211054852980-saudi-shake-up-russia-china/ The ties already made between the three make it a curious dance to watch.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 22, 2017 4:53:07 PM | 52

Hmm..

I wonder how long it will be before we see a provocation against Iran or against the SAA in Syria by the new King to be. I suspect even neocons would be delighted if the Russians or Syrians shot down a UAE, Kuwaiti or Saudi plane. That makes we wonder if Iran will not reply to the new idiot king via more support for the houthi.

Posted by: Alaric | Jun 22, 2017 4:55:40 PM | 53

@51

I would love to see by how much his bank account has grown since lathering MBS.

Posted by: CarlD | Jun 22, 2017 5:08:04 PM | 54

CarlD @53--

Yeah, I thought the item strange for Korybko since I began reading him just prior to Russia's entry. Tried to read it as sarcasm but couldn't convince myself.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 22, 2017 5:24:49 PM | 55

Amnesty and its mouthpiece Kreasechan try to outdo HRW & Ken in their support for the jihadis war on syrians
kristyan benedict‏Verified account @KreaseChan 11h11 hours ago

In an alternative universe, Russia slams Syrian warplane’s attacks on civilians as violation of international law

http://tass.com/politics/952763 https://twitter.com/tassagency_en/status/877853678908182528

Posted by: brian | Jun 22, 2017 6:36:57 PM | 56

The Yemen program sounds like the one run in Afghanistan sort of like a dragnet run by corrupt allies who may be paid "per head." And it's cheaper than paid trip to Gitmo.

Posted by: Curtis | Jun 22, 2017 7:33:57 PM | 57

Hoarsewhisper @ 40 speculated:"There's got to be more to it..."

Bingo! This might have something to do with it..

http://www.globalresearch.ca/military-coups-regime-change-the-cia-has-interfered-in-over-81-foreign-elections/5567422

Posted by: ben | Jun 22, 2017 7:36:49 PM | 58

@8 ruralito, @18 political fiction

yes, ruralito, it does look like an israeli headline ... the iranians and i both fell for it, apparently.

i think, pf, that an israeli 'attack' on saudi arabia is more likely ... planting stories like this one is playing into the hands of all those enumerated by dw @12.

and the usofa helped too ... the t-rump twitting on about mbs' chosen-ness. that whole move has got to be a divide and conquer as well. no doubt both the usofa and the israelis encouraged the ailing king to make the move.

i think israel and the usofa view all of mbs' 'adventures' as

a. ok if he pulls them off, and
b. better still if doesn't, collapses the saud dynasty, opens up arabia as a 21st century 'protectorate'.

Posted by: jfl | Jun 22, 2017 7:51:15 PM | 59

@40 hoarse, 'keeping in mind that torture is conducted in a Totally Controlled Environment in which the victim "knows" only what the torturer wants/needs him to know?'

that's always struck me about the caliph of the islamic state, abu bakr al-baghdadi. he is acknowledged to have been held by the cia - after his stint at abu ghraib - in a prison camp in iraq ... camp bucca, 'along with other future leaders of ISIL' ... that's where he 'got the idea' of the islamic state itself.

i think al-Baghdadi and isis are much more closely tied to the usofa than is generally acknowledged.

Posted by: jfl | Jun 22, 2017 8:36:41 PM | 60

@54 karlof

i've never taken Korybko - or sputnik - as anything other than a propaganda trumpet. he does remind of 'inconvenient' facts from time to time ...


[T]he $65 billion in deals that King Salman signed in Beijing include a plan to construct a Chinese drone factory in the Kingdom, which shows that Saudi Arabia’s August 2016 purchase of this technology from China was successful in serving as the foundation for an expanded military partnership.

what the hell is china doing, selling drones ... building factories to build drones, and 65 billion worth of other projects ... in saudi arabia?

doing a takeover ... via chinese 'entrepreneurs', xi's cronies ... a la greece?


China has long begun an investment plan for Greece that allows Athens to pay salaries, maintain the infrastructures and sustain the impact of debt repayment plans as well as interests. China has capital to invest, trade empowerments to be created and a new Silk Road to be implemented, with Greece being one of the terminals where to channel Beijing’s global investments. In 2015, the Chinese giant Cosco bought most of the Piraeus port for a total of 368.5 million Euros, 280 million of which were cashed in Athens for 51% of the port area and the other 88 million will be delivered after five years for the acquisition of a further 6%, but only for completed compulsory infrastructure investments. On June 17, with reference to the port of Piraeus, Cosco, the Piraeus port authority, and the port of Shanghai concluded an agreement that provides for a great collaboration between the Chinese and the Greek ports, effectively transforming Piraeus in a freight hub from the gigantic port of the Far East.

China's interests in Greece are several and multi-faceted, and the crisis can only help investments by lowering their costs. The Beijing funds are interested in strategic sectors of the Greek economy, which – for Chinese companies – are very attractive assets, by reason of the weak local competition due to the devastation of the Greek state system and the impoverishment of local entrepreneurship. Beijing’s interests span from boating, tourism, road and port networks to real estate – anywhere big Chinese companies and funds from the central state can find a place to become sector leaders. Dalian Wanda, one of the Chinese investment giants, is interested in many areas of the Greek economy, and is ready to invest in less strategic, but equally profitable sectors such as football. The same fund owns a third of Atletico Madrid.

Posted by: jfl | Jun 22, 2017 8:48:12 PM | 61

@40 hoarse

there's a review of douglas valentine's The CIA As Organized Crime at The Criminal ‘Laws’ of Counterinsurgency


The U.S. “deep state” – of which the CIA is an integral part – is an open secret now and the Phoenix Program (assassinations, death squads, torture, mass detentions, exploitation of information) has been its means of controlling populations. Consequently, knowing the deep state’s methods is the only hope of building a democratic opposition to the deep state and to restore as much as possible the Constitutional system we had in previous centuries, as imperfect as it was.

douglas valentine has apparently tied the historical knot between today's assassinations, death squads, torture, mass detentions, exploitation of information and that of vietnam. that's important. the fact that it's been going on for so long points to it's structural significance : it's built-in to the us system at this point, and will remain so, unless and until it's 'built-out' by ordinary americans, ourselves.

the present structure is rotten, incapable of reform


Talleyrand is credited with saying, “They have learned nothing and forgotten nothing.” Reportedly, that was borrowed from a 1796 letter by a French naval officer, which stated, in the original language: Personne n’est corrigé; personne n’a su ni rien oublier ni rien appendre. In English:

“Nobody has been corrected; no one has known to forget, nor yet to learn anything.”

That sums up the CIA leadership entirely.

Posted by: jfl | Jun 22, 2017 9:38:58 PM | 62

@Laguerre 48, jfl 60

I was equally pessimistic about Saudi A. for years, but have become somewhat doubtful now.

Beijing and Riyadh have a long-running (hidden) strategic partnership, with the Saudis buying Chinese missiles, China investing, and both (together with Russia) engineering the fall of the oil price in 2014.

Europe and Russia don't want the kingdom to implode, as this would destabilize the entire region, uproot millions more and probably cause jihadis everywhere to run amok. China & other Asian states don't want oil to rise dramatically. The only major power which wouldn't be affected by the turmoil, and would benefit from a higher oil price, is the US.

If both China/ Russia and Europe support MbS in his attempts to reform the country, shouldn't this be enough for him to have a chance of success? I sure hope so, though it's hard to tell. At the very least we should see some serious efforts to modernize KSA society and economy.

Greece seems to be increasingly swarming with Chinese tourists. The country has basically nothing but logistics and tourism to offer, and China has seized the crisis opportunity to get a foot in the European door. A bit vulture fund style I guess, but Athens had little choice, and Tsipras & colleagues had this planned long before coming to power imo.

Posted by: smuks | Jun 22, 2017 10:25:17 PM | 63

Alaric | Jun 22, 2017 4:55:40 PM | 52

...if Iran will not reply to the new idiot king via more support for the houthi.

What support for the Houthi? You give too much credence to the MSM and their sources in Washington and you're expecting other cultures to be as arrogant, ignorant and stupid as the American one.

Posted by: Ghostship | Jun 22, 2017 10:34:19 PM | 64

Thanks to james, karlof1, ben, jfl et al for broadening the spectrum of a torture discussion; and fast freddy for making sure that the $$$ factor isn't overlooked...

Posted by: jfl | Jun 22, 2017 8:36:41 PM | 59
(Totally Controlled Environment)

I threw that in because the torturers have control over the range and mix of techniques to be used. Good Cop / Bad Cop is a successful and evergreen interrogation style. And in a TC Environment, with psychiatrists and psychologists on the team, it's possible that the geniuses have developed a production-line method of fast-tracking and exploiting the onset of Stockholm Syndrome to enhance the Good Cop / Bad Cop experience.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jun 23, 2017 12:50:22 AM | 65

@62 smuks


Beijing and Riyadh have a long-running (hidden) strategic partnership, with the Saudis ... [and chinese] ... both (together with Russia) engineering the fall of the oil price in 2014.

have you got any proof at all, even speculation as to why, the russians engineered the fall of the oil price in 2014? i think it was the saudis and us who engineered the fall of the oil price in 2014, to the detriment of russia.

If both China/ Russia and Europe support MbS in his attempts to reform the country, shouldn't this be enough for him to have a chance of success?

The country has basically nothing but ... [oil] ... to offer, and China has seized the crisis opportunity to get a foot in the ... [middle eastern oilpatch] ... door. A bit vulture fund style I guess, but ... [riyadh] ... had little choice, ... [mbs] & colleagues had [not had] this planned ... before coming to power, imo.

Posted by: jfl | Jun 23, 2017 1:51:08 AM | 66

FYI (And I know you're German B) - but thought I'd point it out.

The U.S. military and/or the CIA outsourced parts of their ongoing torture campaign in Yemen to the United Arab Emirates, reports AP. Some "interrogations" are done in the presence of U.S. personal and on U.S. ships:

"personal" should be "personnel".

Trump is certainly much better than Clinton - the Civil War going on in the US is very entertaining from afar and mitigates (to my mind) against any huge overseas military actions.

One would hope anyway (though of course there's always an unfortunately large chance).

Posted by: Julian | Jun 23, 2017 3:14:28 AM | 67

sovereignty? what sovereignty?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-40378221
KSA asks Qatar to become a province just like Bahrein was force to some years ago!

Posted by: Mina | Jun 23, 2017 4:22:01 AM | 68

Who are the idiots here....
The United States has told Turkey it will take back weapons supplied to the Kurdish YPG militia in northern Syria after the defeat of Islamic State, Ankara said on Thursday, seeking to address Turkish concerns about arming Kurds on its border.

Turkish defense ministry sources said U.S. Defense Secretary Jim Mattis also promised his Turkish counterpart to provide a monthly list of weapons handed to the YPG, saying the first inventory had already been sent to Ankara.https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-usa-idUSKBN19D10J
It beggars belief that an arrangement like this could be thought about, let alone work.
The US to the Kurds 'you fight and die for our objectives, then we throw you under the bus' the Kurds 'OK boss'. This is what US policy in the Middle East consists of. You could not make it up.

Posted by: harrylaw | Jun 23, 2017 5:14:47 AM | 69

A Marshall plan spend on Afghanistan. Not on hunger in Africa.
http://www.atimes.com/article/fear-loathing-afghan-silk-road/

Posted by: Mina | Jun 23, 2017 6:25:47 AM | 70

@66 julian

and others who feel 'compelled' to correct b's grammar, syntax, diction ... you make me cringe every time you do it. send him an email, ok. or send him snail mail, and make sure you stick a 20€ note in the envelope together with your free advice.

Posted by: jfl | Jun 23, 2017 6:39:40 AM | 71

"Demanding single-payer health care"

The problem is the parasites. I would have no problem with a single-payer healthcare system where all the people spoke my language, looked like me, shared my religion, shared my tradition and shared the European values of hard work, self-reliance and personal responsibility. But egalitarianism, immigration and multiculturalism have made it impossible.

If you want to get Americans to accept a single-payer system, find a way to physically remove/liquidate all illegal immigrants, particularly mestizos, in the country; give blacks their own free state in the Mississippi Delta; expel California from the Union, then invade, conquer, kill the inhabitants and re-annex it.

If you want single-payer in the US, that's what you have to do. Do you have the stomach for it?

Posted by: Pareto | Jun 23, 2017 7:44:08 AM | 72

Jfl @70
I second con brio your advice re grammar correction
Just plain good manners.

Posted by: Glorious Bach | Jun 23, 2017 7:44:53 AM | 73

Oh, and all fat people will have to be gotten rid of too. You can't have a single-payer health care system and allow fat people to exist.

Posted by: Pareto | Jun 23, 2017 7:45:41 AM | 74

i now it's been published here many times before, but it should be periodically published here, i think ...

Overthrowing other people’s governments: The Master List


by William Blum – Published February 2013

Instances of the United States overthrowing, or attempting to overthrow, a foreign government since the Second World War. (* indicates successful ouster of a government)

1. 1949-1960s China
2. 1949-53 Albania
3. 1950s East Germany
4. 1953 Iran *
5. 1954 Guatemala *
6. mid-1950s Costa Rica
7. 1956-7 Syria
8. 1957 Egypt
9. 1957-8 Indonesia
10. 1953-64 British Guiana *
11. 1963 Iraq *
12. 1945-73 North Vietnam
13. 1955-70 Cambodia *
14. 1958-60 Laos * * *
15. 1960-63 Ecuador *
16. 1960 Congo *
17. 1965 France
18. 1962-64 Brazil *
19. 1963 Dominican Republic *
20. 1959-present Cuba
21. 1964 Bolivia *
22. 1965 Indonesia *
23. 1966 Ghana *
24. 1964 Chile-73 *
25. 1967 Greece *
26. 1970-71 Costa Rica
27. 1971 Bolivia *
28. 1973-75 Australia *
29. 1975, 1980s Angola
30. 1975 Zaire
31. 1974-76 Portugal *
32. 1976-80 Jamaica *
33. 1979-81 Seychelles
34. 1981-82 Chad *
35. 1983 Grenada *
36. 1982-84 South Yemen
37. 1982-84 Suriname
38. 1987 Fiji *
39. 1980 Libyas
40. 1981-90 Nicaragua *
41. 1989 Panama *
42. 1990 Bulgaria *
43. 1991 Albania *
44. 1991 Iraq
45. 1980 Afghanistans *
46. 1993 Somalia
47. 1999-2000 Yugoslavia *
48. 2000 Ecuador *
49. 2001 Afghanistan *
50. 2002 Venezuela *
51. 2003 Iraq *
52. 2004 Haiti *
53. 2007-present Somalia
54. 2009 Honduras
55. 2011 Libya *
56. 2012 Syria
57. 2014 Ukraine *

37 of 57 'successful', 65% (counting all 3 of the 'victories' over lao)


is there a year since 1945 that the usofa has not been engaged in overthrowing other peoples' politics somewhere around the world ?

i don't see one.

Posted by: jfl | Jun 23, 2017 7:48:06 AM | 75

Posted by: Pareto | Jun 23, 2017 7:44:08 AM | 71

You forgot to include a**holes....take a guess who is included....lol

Posted by: notlurking | Jun 23, 2017 8:41:28 AM | 76

jfl | Jun 23, 2017 6:39:40 AM | 70

Maybe one other option - Any English grammar advice proferred to 'b' should be submitted in German.

Posted by: Enrico Malatesta | Jun 23, 2017 8:49:04 AM | 77

@ 70, 72 & 76
Exactly, stile over substance. I do not think that Julian @ 66 was malicious, but this remained me of the exercises offered to the gifted kids here in Canada. They would be given important topic to discuss, but teacher would tell one kid to be for, and another one to be against, regardless of their opinions about the topic. So gifted kids are being prepared (brainwashed) that they should not have their own opinion about anything, but they should be good orators and defend positions they are told to!

Posted by: ex-SA | Jun 23, 2017 9:35:45 AM | 78

@76 Enrico

i like that one :)

@77 xsa

jesuits. rhetoricians. lawyers on the make. i had a youngster describe it as 'persuasive speech'. he wanted to teach it, in english, to thai high schoolers. hey, it's one world, been globalized. we're all advertisers now. working for the tncs. who use the science of speech more to blackmail and swindle than teach.

poor julian was probably just trying to be helpful. but i don't think he was. or any of the others. being helpful.

i've never misundertood b's message ... or when i have it's not been to do with his english.

and when b's english is not what i'd write or say, it's given me retroactive insight into my high-school german.

for free! thanks b. your excellent english runs circles around my half-remembered german.

Posted by: jfl | Jun 23, 2017 10:27:29 AM | 79

ex-SA @77

stile (noun) an arrangement of steps that allows people but not animals to climb over a fence or wall

What does it have to do with substance?

More seriously, I do not see the Canadian exercise in rhetoric as brainwashing. Kids should know that there is no connection between the validity of an argument and the polish in its presentation. OTOH, this is information that should be withheld from the future sheeple, so it should be restricted to special programs for the future helpers of the ruling class.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jun 23, 2017 10:40:01 AM | 80

>>>> Enrico Malatesta | Jun 23, 2017 8:49:04 AM | 76

Maybe one other option - Any English grammar advice proferred(sic) to 'b' should be submitted in German.

It helps if you spell proffered correctly, although I appreciate the sentiment.

Posted by: Ghostship | Jun 23, 2017 11:02:46 AM | 81

It's pretty obvious that Trump is picking his friends in the ME based on his attitude towards Iran and a seeming desire to do Israel's bidding. For all his faults Obama chose to keep Israel at arm's length and ramrodded a nuclear deal with Iran that was intended to bring that country in from the cold and open opportunities for commerce that had been shut down by years of sanctions.

In his zeal to undo all of Obama's initiatives Trump has placed the US in an intractable position in the ME. The scope of his long term plans will become more evident as the IS is driven out of Raqqa and Mosul. A lot of posters have postulated that he intends to grab a chunk of eastern Syria and western Iraq and engineer the geography so that Iranian influence in Syria and Lebanon is minimized. They are very likely right.

Because of his problems at home Trump has delegated his ME and other foreign policy to his generals. It's probably a good thing that there are old Pentagon hands that deal with reality and recognize that there's only so much the US can do given the circumstances. It's not so long ago that the "surge" in Iraq resulted in stop-loss reenlistment and numerous deployments of state reserves that must have come as the rudest of shocks to enlistees who thought they were joining to go play with tanks at some base every other weekend. These Pentagon folks realize that to fully meet the expectations of the Saudis and Israelis they would have to instigate a buildup that would mirror those of the two Iraq Wars. With the possibility of hostilities in the far western Pacific the options for the ME aren't very appealing. The American people don't give a fuck about Syria and might get irate if they see the country moving towards war.

The saving grace might be Mueller and his posse of investigators. They are going to forensically break down any dealings that Trump and Kushner had with foreign entities before and during the presidential campaign. There may be reasons for transition type meetings with foreign diplomats but the meetings with bankers and businessmen that were so blithely left off the required documentation when applying for security clearances will come under full scrutiny in a very focused way. This focus on his foreign dealings is apparently what has been causing Trump to act in such an unhinged fashion. He's too frazzled by his domestic problems to concentrate on his foreign policy. That's because he's corrupt and it's going to be fully exposed.

if his dodgy business dealings abroad weren't enough the emoluments clause is waiting to bite him in the ass. There are already several lawsuits in the works and more to come. His brazen milking of his position will be the end of him if the Russian connection isn't. Other presidents would at least wait till their terms were over to cash in on on multi-million dollar book deals and 400 grand speeches. With the sole exception of Jimmy Carter. Trump couldn't wait even months before he started leveraging his position for personal gain.

But still the focus of this and most threads is what a despicable evil man Obama was and how Trump's shortcomings all have their roots in the can of worms left by the previous administrations. Well, Obama is gone now and so is Clinton and the Chief Executive has the power to set things right. It ain't happening and it's time to put responsibility where it belongs. Trump's made Iran the new Public Enemy #1 and speaks of cancelling the nuclear deal. He's called climate change a hoax and and pulled out of the Paris Accord. He's taking away healthcare for the hoi polloi because it was Obama that provided it. He's undone the Cuba initiative. The joke in DC is that he's going to hunt down the Thanksgiving turkeys that Obama pardoned and kill them. But still whenever the subject of American impropriety rises the peanut gallery starts in with how it was all Obama and Trump's not so bad. Well, guess what sport fans, Trump is a crooked son of a bitch who wants to run a kleptocracy and can't understand why all these people are gunning for him. He will find out though when Flynn starts to testify. Because that motherfucker has flipped. Flynn is the key and will bring down the whole rotten structure.

Posted by: peter | Jun 23, 2017 11:52:16 AM | 82

ben 57
That was a good point that Putin raised with Kelly in her interview. It's one thing to point a finger at any Russian affects on elections when the US does it on such a massive scale. I wish he would release a white paper documenting this especially US efforts in Ukraine as well as Russia (to include NED and IRI).

Posted by: Curtis | Jun 23, 2017 11:58:59 AM | 83

Ghostship 63
The "assumed facts into existence" story of Iran's support for Houthi has expanded. But there's still no evidence. From the beginning I wondered how they could make that claim with the blockades in place. That only left an overland route via Oman but this was never claimed or mentioned.

Posted by: Curtis | Jun 23, 2017 12:13:30 PM | 84

@74

Quite a few missing
1949 Haiti*, 1986 Haiti*, 1989*Haiti,, 1992

Posted by: CarlD | Jun 23, 2017 12:16:25 PM | 85

thanks...

it really is disgusting how the usa continues to support torture... it is yet another example of how the usa has completely lost touch with any kind of Christianity or sanity.. they can say all they want to say publicly.. the facts tell a completely different story..

Posted by: james | Jun 23, 2017 12:26:06 PM | 86

@85
Torture and suffering is the crucial and integral part of Christianity.
Do you realize that the cross is a torture device?
And that the word 'passion' in Passion of Christ means a suffering, not a lust or a drive?
Not to mention the Inquisition....

Posted by: hopehely | Jun 23, 2017 12:40:59 PM | 87

@70
To correct someone's language mistakes is a mark of respect. The key is to provide the correction in a concise and non-judgemental fashion. For example, 'stile' can be corrected with a simple '*style' notation. Corrections should also be provided in a way that doesn't interrupt the flow of your interlocutors argument. That 'b' makes occasional english mistakes in no way invalidates his arguments. To provide corrections shouldn't imply that the arguments are faulty, merely that you are engaged in trying to comprehend the arguments and are willing to help 'b' in clearly laying those arguments out.

If 'b' or any language learner (even at a high level like 'b') does not receive feedback, then you deny them the opportunity to improve. In fact I have often felt mocked by people who have declined to correct my mistakes while learning new languages, especially if I make the same mistake repeatedly.

Posted by: Køn | Jun 23, 2017 1:11:57 PM | 88

@jfl | Jun 23, 2017 1:51:08 AM | 65

To kill the petro$ of course. The fall happened right after Russia and China decided to trade oil and gas in Yuan (or rather, after it became publicly known). China is the big winner in this game, the US the main loser. This 'to harm Russia' narrative was bs from the very start.
[nb...you're right, this doesn't prove any 'collusion';-) between them. But given the magnitude of the issue, it would really surprise me if there wasn't some form of coordination.]

About KSA...you're right that a crisis is always an opportunity to "invest"/ plunder, but 65 billion $ is quite serious money even for China, so there's more to it imo. Getting a foot in the door, as in buying goodwill/ alliances? Part of the story for sure, but I do think China is genuinely interested in stabilizing the Middle East, just like Russia and Europe. After all, a complete explosion of the region would not only disrupt oil supplies, but might also cause sectarian trouble inside China.

Posted by: smuks | Jun 23, 2017 1:55:29 PM | 89

@71

If this is satire, I don't get it. If it's serious, it's racist b/s.

Posted by: smuks | Jun 23, 2017 1:59:30 PM | 90

Regarding torture. It's been persistently reported in booklength works for more than a decade that the purpose is not to elicit information. This makes sense. Really, can you imagine that so many people have such valuable info? Rather, we're told that they're tortured to see if they can be made to confess to falsity-- that is, as a way to further the technology of breaking people down. Also, sometimes individuals can be made into "split personalities"-- that is, they can be programmed to commit acts not of their own volition, upon receiving a stimulus-- like Sirhan Sirhan or like the 1962 version of the Manchurian Candidate with Laurence Harvey.

Ah, who knows what evil can lurk in the minds of oligarchs and their lackeys? It makes me feel unclean to contemplate it.

Posted by: Penelope | Jun 23, 2017 7:24:15 PM | 91

@85 cd

missing entries for the us' overthrowing other people's governments master list ... yes, i imagine there are a lot ... but i still don't see a year between 1949 and 2013 in which the usofa was not engaged in trying to overthrow some other people's governments.

Posted by: jfl | Jun 24, 2017 7:58:34 AM | 92

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