Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 23, 2016

BREXIT - Not Gonna Happen

No matter how the Brexit vote will go, the powers that are will not allow Britain to exit the European Union.

 

pic via Aenea Endymion

That's all.

Posted by b on June 23, 2016 at 04:30 AM | Permalink

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UK and Brexit: NATO Warns of Terrorism

More bs ... hoping the Leave camp wins tomorrow. As I have written, Britain is a key voice inside Europe for NATO aggression. See my earlier posts about the Atlantic Council, a think tank for ambitious neocons seeking a career in US foreign policy. I'm thinking about Yvo Daalder a few years ago: "make Russia a pariah state" ahead of further NATO expansion. Libya and Syria were well planned for turmoil and chaos. Serving ally Israel and the Gulf States by placing hrash sanctions on Iran. Must get rid of the axis Tehran – Baghdad – Damascus – Beirut and global terror of Shia funded by the Ayatollahs.

Exclusive: Nato chief says UK staying in the EU is key to fighting terrorism | The Guardian |

Britain’s role at the heart of Europe is crucial in combating terrorism and illegal mass migration, the head of Nato has said on the eve of the UK referendum on EU membership. At NATO headquarters in Brussels, Jens Stoltenberg, the secretary general, also said a fragmented Europe would exacerbate instability in the region.

“I don’t have a vote. It’s up to the people of Britain to decide,” Stoltenberg said. “What I can do is tell you what matters for Nato, and a strong UK in a strong Europe is good for the UK and it’s good for Nato, because we are faced with unprecedented security challenges, with terrorism, with instability and an unpredictable security environment, and a fragmented Europe will add to instability and unpredictability.”

Posted by: Oui | Jun 23, 2016 4:43:21 AM | 1

Yep. The piece linked by ProPeace | Jun 22, 2016 8:36:11 PM | 35 in the Open Thread
nailed every toe of the Brexit kick in the teeth, for Freedom & Mockracy, to the floor.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jun 23, 2016 4:52:23 AM | 4

It wont happen simply because the STAY vote will unfortunately win,

The EXIT voters havent really pushed the final push for the population, meanwhile the propaganda
pro-EU is everywhere.

I suspect we will see somthing of the following result:

Leave: 41%
Stay: 59%

Question is what will happen then? Will the anti-EU crowd grow or decline?

Posted by: Robz | Jun 23, 2016 4:56:09 AM | 5

The EU will break up, not through popular vote, but when the pressure on the economy becomes too great that no amount of bailout money can save it.

Posted by: never mind | Jun 23, 2016 5:01:00 AM | 6

Right from the start I accepted that the Remain side would somehow win. How could it be otherwise? The rulers want the UK to stay in and it will...even if the vote favors Leave, as b says. Democracy is nowhere to be found, anywhere. We live in a seamless, monolithic, Western world, cast as solid concrete, and the rest of the world will either have to actively oppose it or be subsumed into it. Of course Russia and China are the only credible opponents, not as if they form any kind of unified bloc. And let's not even begin to speculate about the Clinton 2 administration's urge to dominate all at home and abroad: a nuke of (self-) righteousness.

Posted by: Quentin | Jun 23, 2016 5:13:27 AM | 7

Britain is too well populated for the Remain in the EU forces to chance an election, the fix is in. If you look what happened in the Republic of Ireland, TWICE a (French) proposition to restructure the EU was put to a required constitutional plebiscite, TWICE the proposition was defeated, TWICE the vote was annulled and TWICE the proposition was resubmitted for a correct vote; look for both Nice Treaty and Lisbon Treaty. It is one of those things that raise questions about the quality of French theoretical republicanism since the Lisbon Treaty was the direct result of French manipulations after the Netherlands and France itself rejected the Nice Treaty after the Irish final acquiescence. France is superb about many things, republican politics isn't one of them.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Jun 23, 2016 5:55:06 AM | 8

And while the EU is struggling from the inside, SCO is due to admit India and Pakistan as members.

Posted by: never mind | Jun 23, 2016 6:00:18 AM | 9

As someone with a vote in this referendum, I would have voted Leave if the Leave group had also said they were going to quit NATO but since they're all rabid Atlanticists they didn't so I won't. The sovereignty we've given up to the United States is far more important than what we've given up to the EU.

Posted by: blowback | Jun 23, 2016 6:04:57 AM | 10

@10, bb

The sovereignty you've given to the US is identical to the sovereignty you've given to the EU.

French government backs down from ban on protest against labor law

May the Britons exit the EU and may the French shove the 'Socialist' government's attempted crackdown on labor and workers in France down their 'socialist' throats.

And may we Americans acquire thereby examples of effective organization to emulate.

Posted by: jfl | Jun 23, 2016 6:30:08 AM | 11

@jfl hear, hear!

Raining cats & dogs in South-east

Weather may be the deciding factor in a close election. A low turnout will likely keep the undecided at home and perhaps the older generation. The needle moving from Remain to indeed a Brexit from the EU?

Ladbrokes has de odds strongly in favor of Remain.

The financial markets indicate a certain IN result of today's referendum. Are there any contrarians? There are stockbrokers gambling on the Soros fearmongering of a 10% stockmarket crash by a Brexit win. There are always sure winners!

How will Britain's EU referendum vote count work on the night?

Posted by: Oui | Jun 23, 2016 6:38:39 AM | 12

blowback,

Stupid, just because the Leave crowd dont benefit every single demand you have you aint gonna vote? No wonder UK will stay in the EU with such naive thoughts.

Posted by: Robz | Jun 23, 2016 6:44:22 AM | 13

I am waiting for the point that the British pound declines to the point that it reaches parity with the Euro. Whereupon the British will simply fix the conversion rate, and, while keeping their beloved currency, join the Euro zone in a de facto sense.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Jun 23, 2016 7:02:23 AM | 14

Craig Murray's take is correct, I think.

There has been a tactical division between them about how best to defend their money. The Boris Johnson wing remember the EU’s heritage of social and economic regulation and wish to escape its residual effect and the potential for future EU social democratic activism. The Cameron wing believe the EU is now fully committed to neo-liberalism and can itself be used to further the laissez-faire agenda. But both come from a judgement call on how the EU is trending, which is why both Cameron and Johnson can and do change their minds on the EU from time to time. It is not a fundamental division.

London's city hates regulations.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 23, 2016 7:48:42 AM | 15

google predicts a landslide for Leave.

http://investmentwatchblog.com/google-predicts-landslide-win-for-brexit-leave/

Posted by: Mischi | Jun 23, 2016 7:52:30 AM | 16

jfl @ 11

Washington who controls NATO can and will(it already has but not at the level I see on the horizon) take us to war while the members of the EU have not yet completely relinquished their sovereignty in foreign policy matters. The EU states might all be vassals of Washington but they have occasionally had the backbone to resist Washington's demands.

Robz @ 13

Since you so blatantly misinterpret what I wrote IRDGAF but I will explain my approach to the referendum for the benefit of any dumb ignorant Americans who inhabit this blog.

The sovereignty to decide whether or not to go to war is the greatest sovereignty any country can give up, so recovering that sovereignty from NATO aka Washington is far more important than recovering any of the piddling sovereignties we've lost to the EU. The entire Brexit campaign is nothing to do with recovering sovereignty, but is everything to do with placating the English nationalists who believe that the wogs begin at Calais and that we should plant our nose firmly up Washington's arse except when we are bending over to be buggered by Washington.

FTGS!

Posted by: blowback | Jun 23, 2016 8:39:11 AM | 17

I'm sure you're right, b, though I don't think Leave are going to win anyway. They seem to be going down. But even if they did win, it won't be by much, a couple of percentage points. If that's the case, it's not really justified to go as far as a massive revolutionary change, and some kind of compromise would be more appropriate (at least if it were possible, which it isn't).

The main argument against a big move is that, if there's an Out vote, the present Tory administration will be replaced by an extreme right-wing one, of the style which is creating problems all over Europe. If Brexit win, Cameron will be forced to resign, for his monumental cockup. He will be replaced by Gove, Johnson, and probably Farage. Although Farage is not a current member of the Conservative party, nor a Westminster MP, he can be ennobled to the House of Lords instantly. Once freed from European law protecting social and work legislation, they will will be out to break the welfare state and the NHS. They've already said it. They'll have a free run of four years, before they are forced to face an election. Quite enough time.

Sure, the present regime in UK is neo-liberal, but it doesn't mean that a replacement regime would be less so. In fact it will be more.

Posted by: Laguerre | Jun 23, 2016 8:41:24 AM | 18

Re: Posted by: blowback | Jun 23, 2016 8:39:11 AM | 17

I think with all respect you miss the point.

A vote for Brexit will weaken the EU.

In turn, a weakened EU will weaken NATO.

A weakened NATO would be more likely to itself break-up and splinter.

Ergo, the UK would be more likely to find itself out of NATO.

That is why it makes sense to vote for the Brexit if you want the UK out of NATO.

Posted by: Jules | Jun 23, 2016 8:58:34 AM | 19

Jules @ 19

Think back to the European Steel and Coal Community - most of the rest of Europe can't afford to quit the EU but that doesn't mean they like it.

Posted by: blowback | Jun 23, 2016 9:19:40 AM | 21

Yep, as we knew, REMAIN lead already, sigh.


Poll of polls puts ‘Remain’ ahead by 2 points

A poll combining all the top surveys on voting preferences in the EU referendum has put ‘Remain’ at 51 percent and ‘Leave’ at 49 percent.

Posted by: Robz | Jun 23, 2016 9:19:42 AM | 22

re 20. Your link doesn't understand that voting Brexit would not be a "decisive strike against the banking-corporate neo-Feudalism", but rather lead to more of it. The Brexiteers are not left-wing, you know. They are more neo-liberal than the current lot, and can be trusted to destroy any remaining employment protection. Zero-hours contracts, the lot. The main feature is that they are anti-globalisation, and racist/xenophobic.

Posted by: Laguerre | Jun 23, 2016 9:25:09 AM | 23

Laguerre @ 18

the present Tory administration will be replaced by an extreme right-wing one
No it won't, the Conservative Party loves power too much. If Remain loses, Cameron will be eased out and most likely Johnson will be eased in, so there will still be a Conservative government and it will probably only move slightly to the right if Johnson has to incorporate the likes of Gove into the government. Johnson was a scholarship boy who climbed into the upper class rather being born into it like Cameron.

Posted by: blowback | Jun 23, 2016 9:32:12 AM | 24

re 24

If Remain loses, Cameron will be eased out and most likely Johnson will be eased in, so there will still be a Conservative government
That's right. That's what I said. You just don't understand the ideologues of the Tory party. I gave you a link about their Mein Kampf (in fact plural works).

The main interest of the Tory party has, since Thatcher, been to break the welfare state, and in particular their bête noir has been the NHS. Reduce the workers back to the state they were in in the 19th century, with no job security, and certainly no health provision. Traditionnally in Britain, the relationship between wealth and worker has always been extremely confrontational. More so than in France, and much, much, more so than in Germany. Thatcher was only too happy to go back to war, after the post WW2 truce. The present lot are only sub-Thatcherian.

Posted by: Laguerre | Jun 23, 2016 9:49:21 AM | 25

re 24 again.

Johnson was a scholarship boy who climbed into the upper class rather being born into it like Cameron.
Sorry to pick you up on a point, but it's misleading to call Johnson "a scholarship boy". His father had a number of highly paid jobs, nice houses, and were upper middle class at the least. You don't get a scholarship to Eton on social criteria, you know. You have to be already half in the system, as Johnson was indeed.

Posted by: Laguerre | Jun 23, 2016 10:19:25 AM | 26

23;Racist and xenophobic?How about they want to preserve their identify as Englishmen,not refugees fleeing globalization.(Globalization is good?-only for slavemasters.)

Posted by: dahoit | Jun 23, 2016 10:31:45 AM | 27

The debate, position-taking, and campaigning, have been the absolute pits, on both sides. Natch, I only followed it from far off, in the MSM etc. The comments on various sites (mostly afaik under 35s) were apalling in their arguments, almost every ‘fact’ or ‘consequence’ was…wrong.

With a little further thought it looks like the organisation of what the Swiss (who know more about voting than any ppl on earth) call a provoked coin-toss vote. Accomplished by expelling a lot of hot air, contradictory arguments, fake posturing, etc. You study the polls (slice and dice) and appeal to certain sections, get ppl confused about their original opinion, etc. Works better for ‘major’ complex issues than for minor, trivial or narrow ones. (The last coin-toss in CH was about the EU and immigration.)

Imho smarter, more focussed campaigning would have served the PTB (Remain) in first place; I can think of several arguments or counter-Brexit arguments they ignored (as visible in MSM etc.) Empty scare-mongering, fact-bending, rubbish predictions, etc. Like - it was *supposed* to be a coin toss, close to 50-50.

Always thought that *Leave* could not win even on the ‘true’ votes. (Inertia, status quo..) see also — Oui at 1, T bear at 8, others..

Have read that in any case the vote is not binding, extra steps by Parliament (and the Queen?) must be taken to validate it, these may fail. I’m not familiar with GB referenda laws at all, when what was the last one? How does it work? Any Brits to chip in?

Society of the Spectacle (Guy Debord) and Ersatz Democracy.


Posted by: Noirette | Jun 23, 2016 10:35:08 AM | 28

Laguerre @ 25

The only difference between Johnson and Cameron is that Johnson is more desperate to become Prime Minister. In the normal scheme of things, that just would not have happened. So that is why he latched onto Brexit, not because he really believes that the UK would be better off outside of the EU but because it's the only way he might become Prime Minister.
As for your concerns about Thatcherism in the Conservative Party, there is not a hair's breadth difference between Cameron and Johnson's position, so nothing will change. As for Thatcherism, I was never sure that M. Thatcher really believed in it. The whole TINA routine was a load of bollocks as that woman would turn of a silver threepence if she had to, it was only later in her career that she started to believe that crap and she didn't survive long once she did.

Posted by: blowback | Jun 23, 2016 11:02:37 AM | 29

dahoit

+1 on that comment, leftwing people have become so confused today, heck there are even leftist parties that support Nato today, crazy.

Posted by: Robz | Jun 23, 2016 11:07:18 AM | 30

Read this morning that Cameron would never have suggested the referendum if he had thought it had a chance ... it was supposed to be a relief valve and then real-life-events kicked in, most obviously the migrant and Greek Monetary crises ... which added to pre-existing fairly intense anti-Eastern European immigrant labor (Polish, apparently -- in whose footsteps the Ukrainians allegedly dreamed of following).
Parallels to "unelectable" Trumps rise to prevail over the Republican ticket inevitable.

The decidedly conservative faces coming out in support of Brexit include Julian Fellowes and Michael Caine and Elizabeth Hurley ... a portfolio of "I got mine" types, while equally rich, but younger, more popular types seem to be solidly stay. Generational component seems strong.

Hard to believe the UK as a whole will be "forgiven" (or go unpunished) for this very public "wavering" given their already secured "special status' and exemptions" ... we'll see.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jun 23, 2016 11:23:24 AM | 31

Like the Scotland vote the Brexit Vote votes have already been counted. Brexit 49.9% Stay 50.1%.

Like the Talking Heads said "Same as it ever was."

Just my opinion

Posted by: ALberto | Jun 23, 2016 11:26:16 AM | 32

re 29.

As for your concerns about Thatcherism in the Conservative Party, there is not a hair's breadth difference between Cameron and Johnson's position, so nothing will change.
You really don't understand the dynamics. All the nutters and racists are in the Leave camp. They're determined Little Englanders, brick up the Channel Tunnel stuff. Johnson is not alone, and may not be able to keep the lid on. But the major new factor, as I mentioned, is that they will be freed from the mass of EU legislation protecting workers' rights, and will certainly go for dismantling human rights legislation. Of course, they say they're going to create new "British human rights". But you know how that is going to turn out.

PS It's very surprising for me to see people on MoA defending racists and xenophobes. You are being taken for a ride. Both sides are as bad as the other. There are no goodies, only two lots of baddies. Two lots of neo-liberals who are out to exploit us. With the EU, we are somewhat better protected than if they can get away with dismantling the existing laws. The latter is definitely in prospect, if they leave the EU.

Posted by: Laguerre | Jun 23, 2016 11:41:44 AM | 33

I have to wonder how Brexit is playing in Turkey and the Ukraine (and other countries starry eyed to join the EU). Islamophobia in the US is bad enough I have to wonder how many migrants (without family already in the US) would endure years of vetting for a chance to live here (not that racism against African-American and Hispanics, indigenous peoples and sundry other minorities is not constantly in the news) ... next to old-fashioned dreams of unlimited opportunities, you have Chicago and Watts and the failing white working class dying young of substance abuse and suicide, with vigilant armed Americans inexplicably guarding the entrances.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jun 23, 2016 11:48:50 AM | 34

Laguerre

Ridiculous! All in the "Leave" camp are racists? Jesus what a ridiculous condencending way of looking a this big question. With your logic anyone that doesnt want to be in the EU are a racist, good job!

People are fed up with the EU, its corruption, its bureaucracy, its failure with the refugees, the failure to create jobs, to raise wages, to pay for the things that actually matters (not to mention the failed EU foregin policies!), with the democracy deficit.

You dont seems to understand that the elite and neoliberals are screaming in hysteria right now, and its not pro-leave messages, they are so afraid that UK will leave and they, the elite, will lose power and huge wages!

Unfortunately phony leftists like yourself will probably win, UK will stay, maybe in 5-10 years you will understand how idiotic and naive your view were then back in 2016.

Posted by: Robz | Jun 23, 2016 11:50:14 AM | 35

I say Leave triumphs. Then things get interesting, as b's "Don't Take No for an Answer" post makes clear, when Conservatives and Labour work together to slow-walk the Article 50 process.

To no avail though, in my opinion. The EU, like the major center-right/center-left parties throughout the West, is already dead. Unfortunately we live in an age of the zombie where the dead can walk and talk. How much longer though?

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Jun 23, 2016 12:02:40 PM | 36

Plenty of "good reasons" to oppose the EU .. long-standing, in fact, dating back to the EU's formation -- what's doubtful is how many of those reasons figure in how large numbers of people are voting, particularly considering the "sudden swing" in the last month

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jun 23, 2016 12:21:29 PM | 37

@ BLOWBACK - Comment #17:


THE EUROPEAN PROJECT IS A UNITED STATES PROJECT:

From your comments, it seems that you do not realize (as most Europeans do not), that the European Project, the EU, is an American project. The United States was tired of having to deal with a myriad of states, and wanted a much more efficient way of controlling European Countries, and devised a process of bamboozling most of the European population into believing that an EU would better be able to compete with the United States economically and politically as well as counter the United States hold on European politics. Of course, traitors to their own brethren had be used in order to pull this off. Currently, the United States is pulling more strings, than ever, over Europe. Sanctions towards Russia are deleterious towards Europe, but it does not have any power to fight the United States' mandate that they take place. And the Trade Deals pending would be the final cap stone that total sovereignty be handed to the United States (the United States is the United States of Corporations at this time, no longer that of the people residing within it). NATO is being arranged become the "army/military" of Europe.

So, your perceived choice does not exist. If you choose to vote to leave the European Union, it will not matter, since your Parliament has to vote on it, for this referendum to take effect, and if you were even to be given the chance to vote on disengaging from NATO, and the final tallies would be that it be done, it would not take place, since your parliament will not vote to disengage from the European Union, and NATO is slated to be its upcoming army.

In sum, you have no vote, -- Democracy has been a sham to keep instability from interring with the elites'businesses, and well-being. As soon as it was implemented, it was hollowed out in insidious and not easily discernible ways.

And now, it does not matter too much that this fact is becoming visible. Now, enough time has passed that a myriad of technologies have been invented, which will serve as the STICK to keep the populations in "their place" (ie. down). No need for psychological tricks any longer. We have the BOOT of the totalitarian technologies (the positive front end of the digital technology age is about to end, and the horrendous mid-course, and end of it, is about to begin).



Posted by: susetta | Jun 23, 2016 1:18:15 PM | 38

BREXIT

DOES NOT MEAN

LEAVING THE EU


"...Should an exit vote occur on the 23rd the more likely scenario is that little will change in the short term. That is because a vote by the UK electorate does not mean an actual ‘exit’ follows. An exit requires a vote by the British parliament to leave. That would activate what is called Article 50 of the EU Treaty, the treaty’s hereto unused ‘exit’ clause.

It is highly unlikely the British parliament, with a Conservative party majority, would vote to exit as a follow up to the referendum. Conservative party members in parliament favoring Brexit at the moment most likely would be ‘convinced’ by party leaders to vote to remain. If they refused, it would likely mean a vote of no confidence and a fall of the Cameron government and that’s not likely to happen.

What is likely is Cameron and his government open negotiations with the EU and seek changes to create a preferential arrangement for Britain to remain in the EU similar to that provided to Norway at the present. Article 50 provides for a two year negotiation period and automatic renewal of EU membership thereafter. Notwithstanding EU leaders in France, Belgium, and Germany wanting to avoid negotiations dragging out that long, they have no way to avoid it.

In short, Cameron will try some way to negate the will of the UK voters should they choose to Brexit. The UK may vote to exit on the 23rd but Cameron, the ‘City of London’ bankers, the UK’s multinational corporations that profit from the UK’s 47% exports to the EU, and UK economic interests who have much to lose from an exit will maneuver to ignore the Brexit referendum should it occur. The Brexit vote will prove merely a tactic for UK elites to try to extract concessions from their EU capitalist competition."


http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/06/22/brexit-camerons-faustian-bargain/


Posted by: susetta | Jun 23, 2016 1:28:13 PM | 39

It's very surprising for me to see people on MoA defending racists and xenophobes. Laguerre at 33.

So-called populist nationalism is a mixed, heady stew.

It aims both to solder the inside and exploit others outside (in a big way), yup.

The EU cannot be reformed from within (Euro fat-cats, neo-liberalism, corporatism, globalization, bankers supremacy, expansionism for profits, control, cheap labor for the Heartland .. death to some of their members, like Greece!, Euro-Atlanticism, submission to the USA, lobbyist, dirty deals, general bumbling and incompetence.. argh....)

... so some judge that the only way out for now (like me) is to return to Wilsonian Nation States (some form) where the ppl of a ‘country’ have a say or at least the power to disrupt. Out of the EU. That is not all rosy, in fact it can be seen as a fight between different approaches about how to exploit others and maintain W supremacy. Racism is not an issue - it is pure geo-politics.

Posted by: Noirette | Jun 23, 2016 1:28:41 PM | 40

CORRECTION regarding comment #38

....from INTERFERING with the elites'businesses, and well-being. ..

Posted by: susetta | Jun 23, 2016 1:34:58 PM | 41

NOiRETTE Comment #40

Did you read my comment above? You do not have the power to leave the EU. Although I agree with you that it would be better for citizens and democracy if you were given that choice.

Posted by: susetta | Jun 23, 2016 1:39:40 PM | 42

Norway had 2 referendums about joining the EEC (EF) and EU.

Result: No, and no.

The norwegian politicians just ignored what what the people wanted.

Norway is now a (semi)-part of the union and has to follow all the iditotic "laws" made in Brussels...

- + - = + ?

This is democracy?

Posted by: Trond | Jun 23, 2016 2:24:03 PM | 43

What someone mention earlier, the EU is gonna break up eventually due to its own corruption, hate, racism, and contempt for its own people - it's own people in the future being its biggest enemy by the evil elite.
All those reasons above and many more, and not the refugee BS reason that so many claim is the cause of the break up of the EU which is truly ludicrous.

And while the evil US Empire is desperate to keep it all together, they will use a serious threat against Russia or even a war, to try to unify EU members against a greater fake threat. That's one strong possibility of how the US will desperately trying to keep the EU shit house together while its starting to seriously crack up.

Posted by: tom | Jun 23, 2016 3:04:55 PM | 44

the picture sums it up well..

Posted by: james | Jun 23, 2016 3:12:59 PM | 45

In the West, people are made to vote until the desired outcome is achieved.. frankly speaking though, I don't think a vote for in or out will change much.

The voting is just an outlet to make people feel theire opinion matters but as b's pointed out, the powers that be have a vested interest in UK staing within the EU so won't be surprised if the remain camp wins. They've invested so much in this porject to simply watch it destroyed by some digruntled peasants.

Welcome to democracy!!! :)

Posted by: Zico | Jun 23, 2016 3:27:36 PM | 46

Can Zico, Noirette or any of the regulars respond to this?

Can you see this comment? I think that I am having difficulties posting.


Thanks

Posted by: susetta | Jun 23, 2016 3:31:55 PM | 47

#47 I can see you;)

Posted by: jo6pac | Jun 23, 2016 3:44:19 PM | 48

Trond @43,

No, this is "bourgeois" democracy. Anything bourgeois has to have room for a self-important bureaucracy of self-absorbed, counterproductive busybodies. Isn't the whole point of society to support an arrogant, self-supreme middle class? To the liberal bourgeoisie, it is!

The only reason we have a ruling class under the current circumstances is because the middle class runs interference on their behalf. I don't think they're particularly useful to leftist aims, and I'm sure the feeling is mutual. Liberalism is a failed experiment in Ferengi crossbreeding. Let's go back to something sane.

Posted by: Jonathan | Jun 23, 2016 3:59:50 PM | 49

Can Noirette, Oui, or one of the regulars acknowledge that they can see me? I believe that I have been prevented from posting on this site. I do not trust anyone else's acknowledgement but a regular on here.

Oui, can you acknowledge seeing me? By the way, I am having trouble posting on your website as well. :( The system says that I am prohibited from doing so! But I just joined! I never posted a comment on there!

Posted by: susetta | Jun 23, 2016 4:48:34 PM | 50

Susetta @ 38-39: I find myself in your camp. The Empire owns the EU. Regardless of any vote, I can't see any change being allowed. Corporate dominance must continue. Same for the U$A, no matter who wins the election, workers are screwed.

Thanks for the link @ 39.

Posted by: ben | Jun 23, 2016 5:00:16 PM | 51

susetta,

jo6pac is a lot more of a regular here than your named come-latelies. Besides, if you're interested in being seen, why would "regulars" be more reliable than what anyone can see?

Noirette probably didn't read your post from THIRTY SECONDS before your own, no. You're having difficulties understanding how to use a message board, or you're operating to take it over. Which is it?

Posted by: Jonathan | Jun 23, 2016 5:17:07 PM | 52

Hi:

I would still be very grateful were Noirette, Oui, Blowback, Laguerre, Jackrabbit, Susan Sunflower, horsewhisper or Brian to acknowledge that my comments can be viewed.

I seem to be having trouble posting to this site and as well as OUi's site !!

I am sorry if I inconvenience anyone, and I Thank you so very much, in advance.

Posted by: susetta | Jun 23, 2016 5:39:27 PM | 53

If the "remain" wins, the EU will be able to impose more on the UK because the UK cannot threaten to exit anymore for a long while. In both cases this exercise has weaken Cameron. He will leave very soon as he won't be able to handle a divided country.

Posted by: virgile | Jun 23, 2016 5:39:30 PM | 54

"We live in a seamless, monolithic, Western world, cast as solid concrete, and the rest of the world will either have to actively oppose it or be subsumed into it."

Well said. Worth saying again.

Given the alleged US Quadrennial extravaganza, the elites picked Clinton just as BREXIT is a foregone conclusion. Even if Bernie had defeated Clinton, he would have conceded to the 'seamless, monolithic, cast as solid concrete' world ruled by whatever you wish to call them. Only a massive revolt against what is called 'western civilization' is likely to change anything. Read this, and maybe a light will glimmer in your darkness?
https://winstonclose.me/2016/06/24/russia-and-china-are-hated-because-they-are-protecting-humanity-from-western-terror-interview-with-andre-vltchek-by-alessandro-bianchi/

Posted by: rg the lg | Jun 23, 2016 5:43:41 PM | 55

"Writing in the Financial Times, British lawyer David Allen Green explained Brexit voting is “advisory,” not “mandatory.” Parliament has final say.

MPs can legally disregard the public’s will either way, they alone empowered to decide the path Britain chooses."

source - http://www.globalresearch.ca/brexit-referendum-is-non-binding-uk-parliament-not-voter-has-final-say/5532485

Posted by: ALberto | Jun 23, 2016 5:49:22 PM | 56

Betting companies now give the remain vote an overwheliming lead. Tragic.

Posted by: Robz | Jun 23, 2016 5:52:17 PM | 57

I have a right to vote. I'm not going to. Why? Its fixed. The illusion of democracy, and even the amazing commentators here suffer from the illusion that that there is actually a real chance of "Brexit"... Bullshit. Just like you Americans think your "vote" makes any difference. Look around you. The majority of the worlds population dont give a flying fuck. Because we understand that knowing how to grow our own food is worth more than knowing who just blew Clinton.

Posted by: dan | Jun 23, 2016 6:07:54 PM | 58

I think William Hague, that old Tory, summed it up best: “The Leave campaign is really the Trump campaign with better hair.”

Posted by: Lochearn | Jun 23, 2016 6:15:40 PM | 59

Posted by: susetta | Jun 23, 2016 5:39:27 PM | 53

I can see your comment.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 23, 2016 6:37:49 PM | 60

rg the lg @ 55 posted:

""We live in a seamless, monolithic, Western world, cast as solid concrete, and the rest of the world will either have to actively oppose it or be subsumed into it."

"Well said. Worth saying again."

And again, and again and again. Because it's true...Sadly!

Posted by: ben | Jun 23, 2016 8:14:20 PM | 61

@ Never mind 6

”The EU will break up, not through popular vote, but when the pressure on the economy becomes too great that no amount of bailout money can save it.”

Spot on. Say in about 18 months the day of reckoning for the banks as the EU Commission (finance) delayed and kicked the can.


This very important item was buried in western MSM. Just imagine if it had been given much airing -you think?
On June 15, 2016 the Swiss threw the EU a huge spanner:

Switzerland withdraws longstanding application to join EU

https://www.rt.com/news/346884-switzerland-eu-membership-application-rejected/

"The upper house of the Swiss parliament on Wednesday voted to invalidate its 1992 application to join the European Union, backing an earlier decision by the lower house. The vote comes just a week before Britain decides whether to leave the EU in a referendum.
Twenty-seven members of the upper house, the Council of States, voted to cancel Switzerland’s longstanding EU application, versus just 13 senators against. Two abstained."
~ ~ ~ ~ ~

RT at this hour: Vote count underway in UK’s Knife-edge Brexit Referendum, Surge for Leave.

Ah, but will the UK Parliament invoke Article 50?

Posted by: likklemore | Jun 23, 2016 8:19:13 PM | 62

Some Legal experts weigh in:

The Lisbon Treaty - Article 50 - "Crucial and unmentioned"

http://uk.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6
[.]
"The only way that a Brexit vote would have weight in law would be if the government decided to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty. This is when an EU member state chooses to activate the process of withdrawing from the 28-nation bloc.

Article 50 would make Britain's EU membership a legal matter. However, even if the June 23 referendum produces a Leave majority, the government would not be obliged to invoke the legislation."
[.]

~~~
unless Boris Johnson replaces David Cameron

Posted by: likklemore | Jun 23, 2016 8:31:19 PM | 63

this moment of realism brought to you by b
thanks, a million times

Posted by: Jay M | Jun 23, 2016 8:34:21 PM | 64

39

Kind of the way the Private Fed Bank Charter of 100 Years was quietly renewed in 2013 without any debate.
Flags and faiths are undesirable barriers to profits.
"I can't tell you where all the money went." Benhamin

Posted by: Uk Tahder | Jun 23, 2016 9:38:26 PM | 65

Referendum results are on live tracker on the guardian

The lead going to LEAVE at 51% at this point

Posted by: Copeland | Jun 23, 2016 10:39:59 PM | 66

3:32 am


Sterling drops below $1.40 as investors reckon with Brexit

The pound has dropped below the crucial $1.40 mark as traders accept that a Leave outcome is all but a certainty.

The drop - at its greatest a 5.7pc slide against the US dollar - puts the currency on track for the worst one-day fall in history.

Last night sterling had surged above $1.50 as money managers bet that Britons had voted to remain in the EU.

Posted by: jfl | Jun 23, 2016 10:41:44 PM | 67

Any way we can make Farage speaker of the house?

Posted by: bbbb | Jun 23, 2016 11:10:03 PM | 68

Pssst, the yuan 'gold fix' (sic) is in! Buy renminbi!

"And now China is starting to turmoil, with the USDCNH soaring to 6.63, while the onshore Yuan is crashing to the lowest level since January 2011."

No-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o!

What a fool believes...

Posted by: Uk Tahder | Jun 23, 2016 11:10:07 PM | 69

So now 'Labour' and the Tories defy the British public and elect a new people?

Posted by: jfl | Jun 24, 2016 12:28:26 AM | 70

This is a red letter day for democracy in the UK.

The EU will ensure black letter days will follow until a new referendum is held and the people vote the right way.

Posted by: Nana2007 | Jun 24, 2016 12:32:25 AM | 71

Britain Defeated ... Again!

Thank You Midlands, North, Wales and the SouthEast / SouthWest provincial regions!

The Dardanelles was Churchill's biggest defeat 100 years ago, today David Cameron's worst nightmare became reality with the British EXIT from Europe.The Pound falls 10%, Ladbrokes goes broke with it's prediction of Remain, it's a good day for Europe's independence from military aggression of team UK and US. NATO will go through a period of uncertainty. Sanctions on Russia were extended for another six months, perhaps it's wise to undo them for economic stability of the EU in the next round.

Indeed, Tory leader Cameron just made history! Did the Russian oligarchs and the monarchs of the Gulf States too lose 10% of their wealth? I surely hope so. Now Brussels and Juncker can display their statesman- and leadership for the European Union. I do welcome Scottish Independence and it's request to become EU member on a fast track.

Cameron, we will see you with your bowler hat and attaché case coming into Brussels for two years of EXIT negotiations. The Eurotunnel provides excellent access to "Old Europe" David, you incompetent overrated fool. Margareth Thatcher is turning in her grave.

The EU democratic deficit as the best explanation why the British voters ruled the waves of discontent.

Posted by: Oui | Jun 24, 2016 12:58:51 AM | 72

@susetta - #50

I'll check it out.

Posted by: Oui | Jun 24, 2016 1:04:39 AM | 73

Didnt expect a leave vote, elites are in panic now lol

Posted by: rp. | Jun 24, 2016 1:22:37 AM | 74

Susetta I can see your posts but did not read (see) the one you are referring to.

Well well well. I’m drinking my morning java and sometimes I love being wrong.

Posted by: Noirette | Jun 24, 2016 1:34:04 AM | 75

@ Nana2007 | Jun 24, 2016 12:32:25 AM | 71

Whoa there, there is no such thing as democracy in Great Britain, it's a Kingdom, has a Queen and royal family, enough aristocrats to sail another Titanic into an iceberg and not even notice the loss, and the rich set would stagger your imagination. No it only pretends democracy to keep the noise of rebellion down to ignorable levels. Only if Parliament should bestir itself to act will there be any motion towards said G. Britain toward severing established ties with the EU; that loverly palace is still securely in the hands of the toffs and not in the least likely to further the reference of the referendum in any way, shape or form - that is only a pleasant dream for those of the working class and below.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Jun 24, 2016 1:56:04 AM | 76

Posted by: jfl | Jun 24, 2016 12:28:26 AM | 70

The City of London will make sure they won't.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 24, 2016 2:12:41 AM | 77

This here is the BBC on city of London thinking

Those who support Britain leaving the EU counter that, although the UK might lose some services, freed from EU regulation on issues like pay, London would flourish.

And certainly one chief executive of a major bank told me that London was the only globally significant financial centre in Europe and was destined to remain so because of its deep, liquid markets, professional services and sheer size (Paris and Frankfurt, for example, have far smaller financial centres).

I am sure pay is not really the issue.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 24, 2016 2:21:18 AM | 78

VIVA the UK! This has nothing to do with racism. The MSM focus on racism but the ppl in the countryside who voted to leave are those who have been told in 2008 that they would get their pensions cut because of the financial crisis. They see Greece and think what happens when it comes to us. The so-called freedom of circulation and work is a joke (and I have been experiencing it enough) that does not actually help workers more than what existed before expect for cheap slave work paid 5e/3p an hour. In fact in the currect system even if you work full time in one EU country you don't get rights in the neighbouring country, unless you have a permanent job in a big company.

Posted by: Mina | Jun 24, 2016 2:24:31 AM | 79

As the stupid Scots voted to Stay - maybe the English should have a referendum on Scottish independence.

Posted by: DM | Jun 24, 2016 2:30:52 AM | 80

Cynicism can be healthy but right now I'm busy feasting on my hat!

Posted by: dan | Jun 24, 2016 2:35:27 AM | 81

55

¿Russia totalitarianism and China totalitarianism are "protecting humanity (sic) from zUSUK global hegemony?"

If you believe that fairy tale, I have a troupe of dancing Israelis to sell you.

A never-gonna-happen BREXIT win becomes a psyop stress position for the True Believers, just like the ruthless Clinton Monarchy will become a psyop stress position for the Ghost Dancers, just like the controlled-dissent zOWS fiasco became a psyop stress position for all the Little People,.. until all of them, like the Aging Hippies, get so worn down and fatigued, they throw in the Halcyon-Age towel and become happy gig-bots in the Profit Machine.

Hope and Chains, Hope and Chains. The Wheel of Dharma.
First you deprogram yourself, then search for an exit.

Posted by: Uk Tahder | Jun 24, 2016 3:03:29 AM | 82

b, you're wrong this time Brexit result 51.7% and Nigel Farage may soon be the PM.

https://www.rt.com/news/348129-farage-brexit-independence-day/

Posted by: Jack Smith | Jun 24, 2016 3:08:14 AM | 83

brexit it is! see how long this holds...

Posted by: james | Jun 24, 2016 3:10:51 AM | 84

@DM | Jun 24, 2016 2:30:52 AM | 80

As the stupid Scots voted to Stay - maybe the English should have a referendum on Scottish independence.

Nope the Scots are not stupid at all. They too will demand another referendum and this time they will succeed!

Posted by: Jack Smith | Jun 24, 2016 3:13:18 AM | 85

Primary reasons why Exit is OK

Ever since Margareth Thatcher, the British have changed the social face of the EU.

- undermining labor rights
- lowering minimum wage
- pulling out of institutions EU human rights
- massive attraction of wealth from oligarchs, dictators and monarchs of the Gulf States
- not providing support for ordinary, working class people
- London City with banking and financial institutions at the heart of the 2008 crisis
- supporting above dictators with military arms
- waging imperial wars outside NATO territory
- Syrian chaos caused by western powers UK, France and US
- migrant crisis is a follow-up of immoral policy
- giving Erdogan support due to refugee crisis [Turkey with Qatar and Gulf states gave support to jihadists traveling to Syria]

Hoping Europe will return to a union of statesmanship, democracy and peacemakers.

For the US election, a warning Trump may yet pull an upset win in November. Voters are fed-up with the establishment as they see the 0.1% or 1% grab all of the economic benefits in the last decades.

Another black eye for President Obama and his failed foreign policy ... hoping a British Exit will shut-up the warmongering senators of US Congress. Will HRC once again do a make-over before November?

Posted by: Oui | Jun 24, 2016 3:14:34 AM | 86

I am headed to bed but am reading all the hysteria over the BREXIT vote and wondering how the situation will be manipulated by the global plutocrats to their favor.

I won a local $10 bet but that is not a grain of sand compared to all the rest riding on this advisory decision.

Will this vote get rid of private finance? Certainly not directly but one can hope it is only the first domino of many to fall and the global plutocrats as well.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jun 24, 2016 3:18:48 AM | 87

Listening to Cameron's speech I now suspect London will be very happy to mute into the Swiss of these Islands, with arms into the EU market that will take the shape of Scotland and Ireland.

Posted by: Mina | Jun 24, 2016 3:24:35 AM | 88

Cameron resigning, starting the Brexit process; a very gracious speech.

Posted by: V. Arnold | Jun 24, 2016 3:30:01 AM | 89

The domino's start to fall across Europe...

Posted by: V. Arnold | Jun 24, 2016 3:31:04 AM | 90

@Oui | Jun 24, 2016 3:14:34 AM | 86

For the US election, a warning Trump may yet pull an upset win in November....

Trump will win in Nov. I'm voting for him like it or not and I'm NOT alone, somewhere I read most leftist are on Trump's camp. One thing for sure, I ain't for Bernie. Not another Obomo again!

Posted by: Jack Smith | Jun 24, 2016 3:40:36 AM | 91

Oops, forgot to mentioned, It's Putin fault!

Posted by: Jack Smith | Jun 24, 2016 3:44:06 AM | 92

@V. Arnold

Thx for the good news! The domino's won't fall across the EU nations because the latests additions are reaping great monetary benefits. Just like a bad marriage, partners will have to get along because of the finacial disaster by leaving.

Posted by: Oui | Jun 24, 2016 3:46:26 AM | 93

@Jack Smith

I agree on both points made. :-)

Posted by: Oui | Jun 24, 2016 3:47:39 AM | 94

Oui | Jun 24, 2016 3:46:26 AM | 93

Netherland and Italy already talking about it.
As the Buddhist Monk said; we'll see...

Posted by: V. Arnold | Jun 24, 2016 3:54:16 AM | 95

yeah - clearly this is putins fault, LOLOL!

Posted by: james | Jun 24, 2016 3:54:48 AM | 96


psychohistorian | Jun 24, 2016 3:18:48 AM | 87
I won a local $10 bet

Well, I lost 10 Euro. Balance of the world remains in order :)

Given the massive media campaigning in the transatlantic media, I find myself surprised that such an outcome did actually take place. This will be a massive encouragement for every anti-EU movement. From a purely personally and emotional perspective I get a sense of how important it is for the political elite to manufacture a spirit of "there's no alternative". What a surprise to see that an outcome against the will of all the newspapers and "experts" is possible. Really, I find my own reaction even more interesting to analyse than the actual political and economic meaning of the vote.

Posted by: radiator | Jun 24, 2016 3:58:56 AM | 97

Fellow barflies, I do believe that for once we have good reason to celebrate!

Posted by: dan | Jun 24, 2016 4:17:24 AM | 98

Now the real fun begins!

{Quote} AP Top News at 4:13 a.m. EDT
LONDON (AP) - Britain voted to leave the European Union after a bitterly divisive referendum campaign, toppling the British government, sending global markets plunging Friday and shattering the stability of a project in continental unity designed half a century ago to prevent World War III. [....] The electoral commission said 52 percent of voters opted to leave the EU. {Unquote}

Meanwhile, the Tylers at Zero Hedge are posting economic charts that are dropping faster than Building #7. Thank God it's Friday.

Posted by: blues | Jun 24, 2016 4:25:41 AM | 99

it will get real fun; most EU countries now want referendums (and I don't think it will mean for the extreme-right go up, rather, they have something to say during the referendums but afterwards they won't be considered serious enough to rule)
and Madrid offers to the UK a shared sovereignty on Gibraltar to keep a tentacle in the EU

Posted by: Mina | Jun 24, 2016 4:29:15 AM | 100

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