Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 24, 2015

The Two Versions Of The Latakia Plane Incident

Edited and updated

Turkey says two of its F-16 fighters shot down a jet that had crossed into Turkey and then crashed in Syria:

Two Turkish F-16's shot down a Russian-made SU-24 jet on Nov. 24 near the Syrian border after it violated Turkish airspace, presidential sources said.

Turkey shot down the jet after it failed to heed the warnings within the rules of engagement.

Initial reports said the jet belonged to Russia, but presidential sources later clarified that the jet's nationality was unknown.

The Turkish Armed Force also stated that the jet of “unknown nationality” had been warned 10 times in five minutes about its violation of the border.

Meanwhile, a Turkish official told Reuters that two warplanes approached Turkish border and were warned before one of them was shot down.

The jet was Russian SU-24. One pilot was killed and the body is in the hands of "rebels". At the of a video the "rebels" made of the dead pilot they call themselves "mujahideen". One picture shows the body with two bullet holes in the chests suggesting that he was illegally executed. A rebel source claims that he was shot while parachuting from the burning plane. That is a war crime under the Geneva Convention. A second pilot was probably wounded but was said to have landed somewhere in Syrian army covered territory. The search for him is ongoing.

Russia's official version of the incident is remarkably different from Turkey's:

Today an aircraft from the Russian air group in the Syrian Arab Republic crashed on the territory of Syria supposedly shot down from the ground.

The aircraft was flying at the altitude of 6 000 metres. The status of the Russian pilots is being defined.

According to the preliminary data, the pilots managed to eject from the warplane.

The circumstances of the crash are being defined.

During all the flight time, the aircraft was flying only within the borders of the Syrian territory. That was registered by objective monitoring data.

The Russian version leaves it open who shot the plane down. Is that meant to deescalate?

Turkey claims that the red line here shows the flightpath of the Russian plane.



bigger

If that is correct than the (alleged) violation of Turkey's airspace was for just some 5 seconds and would in no way justify to shot down the plane. Just Friday Turkey "warned" Russia over attacks on "Turkmen" in Syria. This then was not legitimate air-defense but an ambush. Most NATO country will shake their heads over the irresponsible Turkish behavior and will not get further involved such lunacy.

So there will likely be no war over this but a lot of strong statements will be issued. NATO councils and the UN Security Council may meet. But the propaganda preparation for war is targeted at the Islamic State and Syria, not at Russia.

In a separate incident two Russian journalists covering the Syrian army were wounded by a projectile from the "rebels".

The Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov canceled his visit to Turkey which was planned for tomorrow. After having lost many "western" tourists Turkey will now also lose the last Russian guests. There are many hotels in Antalya that will have to close down. Turkey's energy supplies depend on Russian (and Iranian) gas. The shooting down of the plane may lead to "technical problems" with those supplies. The PKK fighting the state in Turkey's east may soon have a new sponsor and modern weapon supplies.

The area where the plane came down is in Latakia, some 3.5 kilometers from the Turkish border. It is in the hand of what Turkey calls "Turkmen" which may mean imported Uighur and Uzbek Islamist fighters - mujahideen like they call themselves in the video. They are now already under sharply increased artillery fire. They may soon have to endure some very violent direct attacks by Russian special forces. Future Russian air-to-ground attacks in the area will be flown with "top cover" from additional fighter jets ready to engage the Turks with the very best Russian weapons as soon as they make the tiniest mistake.

In short. This Turkish escalation step will be answered.

UPDATE: Putin just held a press conference with the Jordan King Abdullah on his side(!) and boy was he pissed. Some major points:

  • Confirms Turkish version of air-to-air missile but says plane was in Syrian airspace
  • Describes Turkish attack as "a stab in the back by accomplices of terrorists"
  • "Together with our US partners we signed an agreement to prevent" incidents like this
  • "Ankara will discuss this tragedy with NATO as if it was Russia who shot down their jet. Does Turkey want NATO to serve ISIS goals?"
  • Accuses Turkey of financing, protecting ISIS
  • Turkey doing oil business with ISIS
  • This will have serious consequences for Russian-Turkish relations

 

Posted by b on November 24, 2015 at 06:37 AM | Permalink

Comments
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Don't know what Turkey thought they were doing but Russia is sure now to patrol the Syrian Turkish border. I don't think Western publics are stupid enough to buy in their governments starting a war with Russia to fight "Muslim terrorism".

Posted by: somebody | Nov 24, 2015 6:49:03 AM | 1

Footage from private broadcaster Habertürk TV showed a warplane going down in flames in a woodland area, a long plume of smoke trailing behind it. The plane crashed in an area known by Turks as “Turkmen Mountain” in northern Syria near the border, Habertürk said.

Posted by: Oui | Nov 24, 2015 6:49:44 AM | 2

Turkey called this week for a UN security council meeting to discuss attacks on Turkmens in Syria, and last week Ankara summoned the Russian ambassador to protest the bombing of their villages. Ankara has traditionally expressed solidarity with Syrian Turkmens, who are Syrians of Turkish descent.

Brigades of Turkmen Mountain in Latakia

Posted by: Oui | Nov 24, 2015 6:50:23 AM | 3

Western public (if you mean Europeans) is irrelevant. And the only western public which is slightly relevant is two oceans away from 'danger' (as everyone conveniently forgot that nukes still exist in this world).

The NATO and EU statements will be about keeping calm and avoiding violations of Turkey's space. There will be no condemnation. And obviously Russia will keep attacking near the border.

Posted by: ThePaper | Nov 24, 2015 6:56:11 AM | 5

How can Russia retaliate, Turkey is dependent on Russian and Iranian gas
In 2014, Turkey imported 1.7 Tcf of natural gas, accounting for 99% of total natural gas supply.19 Through LNG and multiple pipeline connections, Turkey has a reasonably diversified supply mix. However, Russia's Gazprom is by far the largest single supplier, accounting for 57% of Turkey's total natural gas supply in 2013 (Figure 5).20 Turkey is Russia's second-largest export market for natural gas, after Germany. In 2013, BOTAŞ exported just 23 Bcf of natural gas.https://www.eia.gov/beta/international/analysis.cfm?iso=TUR Iran supplies 20%, Azerbaijan 10% and Algeria 8%.

Posted by: harry law | Nov 24, 2015 7:02:38 AM | 6

Haha that image actually speaks against turkey's claim of breach, sure if the image is correct it is a breach but is a nonsenical breach that dont justify attacking the plane! Would be fair if Russia/Syria could make a response but Russia and Syria are way more smarter than crazied Erdogan.

Posted by: Seder | Nov 24, 2015 7:06:28 AM | 7

One response could be to put russian anti-aircraft missiles on the syrian border directing it against Turkey.

Posted by: Seder | Nov 24, 2015 7:07:54 AM | 8

Thanks for this b; people were starting to hyperventilate.

Posted by: Patrick Armstrong | Nov 24, 2015 7:09:44 AM | 9

Russia, Assad strike at Turkmens, giving DAESH a free hand in Syria

At the Prime Ministry, Fidan [intelligence chied] also briefed the Davutoğlu on the issue. Ankara had requested that Russia promptly end this operation, Foreign Ministry spokesman Tanju Bilgiç said, adding: "Our warnings and request have also been communicated to the Russian deputy foreign minister and special presidential representative for the Middle East, Mihail Bogdanov."

"If any attack is mounted against civilians on Turkey's border, even with cluster munitions shelling, so as to draw the people living there toward Turkey and lead to a further refugee flow, all involved will be held responsible," Davutoğlu told the media in Istanbul last Friday.

Posted by: Oui | Nov 24, 2015 7:10:16 AM | 10

I really don't think this was a whim of Erdogan - he must have had the go-ahead of Obama or even all of NATO to do this - it is a little test case to see what Russia will do. This kind of 5- or 10-second 'trespassing' must be going on on a daily basis, given the very limited aitrspace in which all htese operations take place...

Posted by: Bart | Nov 24, 2015 7:42:49 AM | 11

Russia has plenty of options and there's no rush. Turkey will still be there next week /month /year. I hope Vlad keeps Emperor Erdogan in suspense for a while.
AFTER announcing that the shoot-down won't go un-answered.
Everyone likes a good thriller...

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 24, 2015 7:50:59 AM | 12

Live RT – statement by Putin: "We were stabbed in the back by terrorists' supporters. Serious consequences for tragic events on Syrian border."

Further, quite irritated with Turkey, Putin said they talked to their NATO allies first before contacting Russian foreign diplomats to discuss the event.

NATO holding emergency session after Turkey shoots down Russian warplane

Posted by: Oui | Nov 24, 2015 8:04:03 AM | 13

Mount Turkmen has not fallen to Assad: Turkmen commander

Omar Abdullah, commander of the Sultan Abdulhamit Han Brigade in Syria, said on Monday that the Turkmen brigades have recaptured a strategic point on Mount Turkmen from Assad forces backed by Russia, Iran and Hezbollah.

“Mount Turkmen has not fallen to Assad forces. They only seized a part of Kızıldağı," Abdullah said.
In recent days, Syrian regime forces started a heavy assault on Mount Turkmen in Bayır Bucak, a Turkmen populated area in Latakia province.

Turkmens were under intensified Russian airstrikes while Iranian forces and Hezbollah from Lebanon launched a joint land attack with Assad forces. Russian warships fired missiles as tanks and cannons attacked unarmed civilians in Mount Turkmen area.

Posted by: Oui | Nov 24, 2015 8:05:11 AM | 14

I was apparently wrong about the shoot-down having been done by a SAM missile. Putin said the attack was from a Turkish jet.

You can get continuous RT live updates at:
https://www.rt.com/news/323240-russia-turkey-warplane-downed/

Posted by: blues | Nov 24, 2015 8:07:39 AM | 15

Is it the same area called Jabal al Akrad? So the only reason why the Turks call it "Jabal Turkmen" is because they can't bear a geography where Kurd exist?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabal_al-Akrad
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/20/us-mideast-crisis-syria-latakia-idUSKCN0SE0M420151020

Some hope the "Hatay" Pandora box is going to open. Time for Syria to get back Antioch?

Posted by: Mina | Nov 24, 2015 8:09:08 AM | 16

From RT's live coverage

12:53 GMT
Turkey backstabbed Russia by downing the Russian warplane and acted as accomplices of the terrorists, Russian President Vladimir Putin said.

The plane was hit by a Turkish warplane as it was travelling 1 km away from the Turkish border, Putin said. The plane posed no threat to Turkish national security, he stressed.

Putin said the plane was targeting terrorist targets in the Latakia province of Syria, many of whom came from Russia.

Russia noticed of the flow of oil from Syrian territory under the control of terrorists to Turkey, Putin said.

Apparently, IS now not only receives revenue from the smuggling of oil, but also has the protection of a nation’s military, Putin said. This may explain why the terrorist group is so bold in taking acts of terrorism across the world, he added.

The incident will have grave consequences for Russia’s relations with Turkey, Putin warned.

The fact that Turkey did not try to contact Russia in the wake of the incident and rushed to call a NATO meeting instead is worrisome, Putin said. It appears that Turkey want NATO to serve the interests of IS, he added.

Putin said Russia respects the regional interests of other nations, but warned the atrocity committed by Turkey would not go without an answer.

Putin was speaking at a meeting with King of Jordan Abdullah II in Sochi, who expressed his condolences to the Russian leader over the loss of a Russian pilot in Tuesday’s incident, as well as the deaths of Russians in the Islamic State bombing of a passenger plane in Egypt.

The two leaders discussed the anti-terrorist effort in Syria and Iraq and the diplomatic effort to find a political solution to the Syrian conflict.

Strong words. It looks like Putin will hold Turkey to account for the downing of one of their jets (and the death of at least one of their own) regardless. The russian intervention in Syria will no doubt continue unabated, maybe even intensify, near the turkish border.

I wonder what assurances Turkey will get in turn from NATO.

Posted by: never mind | Nov 24, 2015 8:12:18 AM | 17

Putin: Downing of Russian jet over Syria stab in the back by terrorist accomplices

https://www.rt.com/news/323262-putin-downing-plane-syria/

Posted by: Seder | Nov 24, 2015 8:15:59 AM | 18

If it gets proven that indeed 3 cars came from Belgium to clean up the appartment (from computers? finger prints?) where Abaoud's cousin was staying regularly one might get to ask about the role of the Turkish intelligence in the Paris attacks.
"Apparently, IS now not only receives revenue from the smuggling of oil, but also has the protection of a nation’s military, Putin said. This may explain why the terrorist group is so bold in taking acts of terrorism across the world, he added."

Posted by: Mina | Nov 24, 2015 8:16:07 AM | 19

In all honesty I think that the Russian "intervention" is way exaggerated. When I see the whole picture I believe it is have been designed to save face of the West Death Squad aka regime change policy. The western media offensive, hence the ruling establishment's policy, give us picture of we-have-nothing-to-do-with-mercenaries. We are now to believe so-called IS is organic product of Islam. And refuges are all terrorist or means to inflitrate into Europe, and their "way of life". The West doesn't wont to be remembered by history department that it is them who instigate of what we have today. Lessons from Central America is learned.

Remember, A HREF="http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/nazi-germany/leni-riefenstahl/">Leni Riefenstahl's words.

...the "messages" of her films were dependent not on "orders from above," but on the "submissive void" of the German public. Did that include the liberal, educated bourgeoisie? "Everyone," she said.

Russia and the West has one thing in common, that is hate for Islam. While the West uses Islam as a tool for social engineering and to promote own goals, Russia sees it as existential threat. The West and Russia are alarmed by (unwelcome) refuges in condition of economic malaise.

Downing of Russian jet, if that what's really happened, is new development. As if the crisis actors were unaware of danger which Russian action pose. Do we remember of shooting down mysterious Turkish jet four years ago, of the coast of Latakia and not that far from now downed jet? How come do not see the parachutes, and how come that "independent" channel filmed that as if per order?

Posted by: Neretva'43 | Nov 24, 2015 8:20:52 AM | 20

This far in the conflict, Russia has raised the stakes incrementally and occasionally responded to the attacks from left wing: just where least expected.

A look at the grand chess board shows
1- EU: European solidarity disintegrating; EU citizens being prepared for lockdown;
2- Germany: Germany seeking alternatives to survive. The German chancellor lost in the host of problems and being shown for the incompetent she is; VW being punished to pass a message to the rest of German industry to stay in line;
3- France: France as usual not being man enough to stand for themselves but wanting to keep being poodle (to the US) and ally with Rssia (in response to a false flag).
4 - UK: Almost irrelevant now and seeking to be heard in the cacophony. Nevertheless cannot be ignored
Syria was until yesterday making steady progress against the rebels and IS.
5 - NATO seeking to position two carrier groups in the Mediterranean ASAP. Is this in preparation for a dramatic escalation in the ME? Seems so.
6 - Israel: Being seemingly penned in and restricted to genociding Palestinians;
7- KSA - Coming apart a the seams. Seeking a final solution to Yemen while readying for a very difficult 2016;
8 - QATAR - Being shown up for who they truly are. A midget punching above their weight.
9 - iran - Seeking to be counted and becoming bolder the longer the syrian operations last; Additionally shredding all the shackles from teh western sanctions and signing on to Russian nuclear tech.
10 - Syria - After almost being left for dead, coming back from the dead and making use of the newfound vigour under the cover of the russian airforce;
11- Egypt - Seeing the western alliance as wanting to use them for fall guys, actually seeking to hedge their bets with the east (see signature of nuclear deals with Russia)
12- Turkey: Seeking a war at all costs regardless of whether they'll be defeated.
13- Russia - Last but most important. They have reacted to the downing of their passenger plane by some bold declarations and upping the ante with quite complex long range bomber runs. These indicate a preparation for a very complex war ahead. they have the memo. They were getting ready to up the ante in Syria by making use of more fighter jets in Syria. They have responded assymetrically through the nuclear deals with iran and Egypt this week.They have stood in line with the French and opened doors to Syria with public proclamations of cooperation which are misleading as they all know too well the duplicity of NATO and the EU based vassals;

All in all, the ISIS straw man has served his purpose, drawing all these players into a tight space for confrontation and today Turkey has just lit the spark. the next moves depend on each player. It is doubtful Turkey would have done this alone. the traps Russia has evaded this far are running out. Time is also running out before the economic collapse at the end of this year. Therefore, as Russia did not respond symmetrically to the killing of its civilians in Donbass, the cutting of electricity to Crimea, the downing of its airliner, then just may be they shall respond to the killing of their airmen and soldiers in Syria.

Welcome to the upgraded and reshuffled chess board where the game is played on a powder keg...

Posted by: elrius | Nov 24, 2015 8:21:21 AM | 21

@14

It could also be that Putin is using Turkey's version of what happened as way of fomenting public opinion against it.

"Look. Turkey shot down one of our planes inside of Syria that was, at the time, conducting an anti-terror op against the very same people who bombed your beloved Paris. Turkey is effectively protecting IS."

This can't look good for Turkey however they'll spin it.

Posted by: never mind | Nov 24, 2015 8:24:36 AM | 22

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/Default.aspx?pageID=428&VideoID=817

OK I just seen video of parachuted pilots. It seems both were alive, and one of them then must be killed.

Posted by: Neretva'43 | Nov 24, 2015 8:27:32 AM | 23

Both are dead. And one at least was surely killed by 'moderate' beheaders firing on him while parachuting.

Posted by: ThePaper | Nov 24, 2015 8:32:45 AM | 24

Now I believe that the jet was in the Syrian airspace. It is not difficult to figure out that is purposeful action/plan by NATO and their faithful executioner Turkey.

The plan might be to shut down Bosporus and Dardanelles to Russian Navy.

Posted by: Neretva'43 | Nov 24, 2015 8:33:38 AM | 25

http://turkishnavy.net/

Take a look of the Russian ships in the Turkish territorial waters.

Posted by: Neretva'43 | Nov 24, 2015 8:41:52 AM | 26

Shameful. Turkish military protecting Turkish state sponsored terrorists.

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 24, 2015 8:45:21 AM | 27

@21 - That's the truth.

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 24, 2015 8:46:11 AM | 28

Posted by: ThePaper | Nov 24, 2015 8:32:45 AM | 23

Of course. I would not blame them, anybody bombed from above hates the pilots. However, Putin probably is correct that the bombed "Turkmen villages" included "Turkish" Caucasus fighters using the remaining locals as human shield.

The miracle now is if NATO will back agressive Turkish foreign policy. I can't see them do it except for a lukewarm declaration.

In other news Erdogan's son - the one profiting from IS oil sales - became Turkish energy minister.

Posted by: elrius | Nov 24, 2015 8:21:21 AM | 20 - I agree with your analysis. It has the smell of Sarajevo.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 24, 2015 8:46:13 AM | 29

Putin said "This is a stab in the back and instead of immediately getting in contact with us, as far as we know, the Turkish side immediately turned to their partners from NATO to discuss this incident, as if we shot down their plane and not they ours". If the jet was shot down in an action against an enemy at war, it would be acceptable. In these circumstances Turkey's action itself was an act of war, since in no way could that Russian jet be threatening Turkey.

Posted by: harry law | Nov 24, 2015 8:51:55 AM | 30

"In all honesty I think that the Russian "intervention" is way exaggerated. When I see the whole picture I believe it is have been designed to save face of the West Death Squad aka regime change policy."

Without Russian support, regime change would have happened in 2011. The NATO would have started bombing and Syria would look like Libya and Ukraine right now. Your analysis is faulty and your perspective is, frankly, weird.

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 24, 2015 8:54:40 AM | 31

@ somebody | Nov 24, 2015 8:46:13 AM | 28

nope!

"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

Samuel Huntington, US Gov./CIA brain trust member.

Posted by: Neretva'43 | Nov 24, 2015 8:56:47 AM | 32

Who Are These Turkmen?

The Turkmens of Bayırbucak | Hürriyet Daily News |

The current Turkish-Syrian border was drawn with the Oct. 20, 1921, agreement signed between France, the mandatary of Syria, and the Ankara government; regions such as Hatay as well as Bayır and Bucak were on the Syrian side. This was approved in Lausanne.

Mersin deputy Niyazi (Ramazanoğlu) Bey delivered a very important speech in the parliament on the day of Aug. 21, 1923. He stated that while the 1921 agreement was signed, Ankara was still in a very troubled situation and criticized the acceptance of the border agreed upon in 1921.

In his speech, Niyazi Bey explained the Turks who were left on the Syrian side as such:

    “There were three villages left to us from Hassa. Others were Teyek, Ekbez, Beylan, the boroughs of İskenderun, the township of Reyhaniye, the Antakya district, the Ordu district, the Bayır, Bucak and Hazine townships, a major portion of the Kilis borough, the Elbeyli and Turkmen districts south of Çobanbey-Cerablus region of Antep… This is all Turkish soil that constitutes integrity with the motherland…”

They were all on the Syrian side.

Posted by: Oui | Nov 24, 2015 8:57:17 AM | 33

guest77 | Nov 24, 2015 8:54:40 AM | 30

Partially true. What is full truth is that Without Iran's Support the Syrian Gov. would fall.

Posted by: Neretva'43 | Nov 24, 2015 8:58:53 AM | 34

What will happen now:

Nato: Will condemn Russia (prepare for an angry video by Stoltenberg).
EU/US: Will urge calm and respect of borders.
Russia: ?

Posted by: Seder | Nov 24, 2015 8:59:54 AM | 35

Video of Putin press conference with King Abduallah of Jordan. English subtitles.

Abdullah is STRONGLY on Russia's side.

Also of note: The neocon and former Swedish prime minister Bildt has taken position on Twitter against Turkey!

Posted by: b | Nov 24, 2015 9:05:57 AM | 36

guest77 | Nov 24, 2015 8:54:40 AM | 30

"The NATO would have started bombing and Syria would look like Libya and Ukraine right now. Your analysis is faulty and your perspective is, frankly, weird."

Russia is, of course, after OWN interests that is so natural. Russia is not after Syrian ones, period, from ceratin reason they allied with Damascus this time around. But the Russians sell all Arab regime so far, they sell them to the hyenas from the West every single time.

Not only that, they (Russian) had prevented Iran from obtaining a weapon and system which already being paid. Educate yourself first than speak up, OK?

Posted by: Neretva'43 | Nov 24, 2015 9:10:49 AM | 37

b | Nov 24, 2015 9:05:57 AM | 35

"Abdullah is STRONGLY on Russia's side."

are you sure? and this is what's weird. Abdullah, educated in the UK at Sandhurst Academy, is loyal West puppet. It has/had the role what Turkey is still having now.

Posted by: Neretva'43 | Nov 24, 2015 9:19:19 AM | 38

This then was not legitimate air-defense but an ambush.

Exactly.

The context.

It happened in the wake of Putin's visit to Iran, which cemented the alliance Russia/Iran for time to come, and strengthened their ties at strategic levels. This is Turkey's declaration of war against both Russia and Iran for supporting Syria.

Turkey was one of the G-20 countries denounced by Russia as sponsors of terrorism. Further investigations should expose Turkey et al financial links to takfiri terrorists, possibly creating a diplomatic/political downfall, and with UN sanctions in sight, a preemptive black flag operation was planned. It started with the circus of the Turkmen, calling Russia's envoy to protest, revival of the so-called "safe-zone," and the shooting of the Russian jet is the logical consequence of a carefully developed choreography.

As predicted, we have entered "Deadly Ground" (Sun Tzu).

Russia cannot just take the hit to avoid further escalation. As we all know, restraint and moderation is embedded in Russia's art of diplomacy, but if rabid dog Erdogan is not caged by his US/NATO handlers, the possibility of an escalation is high. However, in the aftermath of France 13/11, and the French/Russian "collaboration," another coup from Russian diplomacy, we can expect NATO's response to be measured.

The next few days are crucial, and will test the extent of the US empire and its minions commitment to destroy Syria and control the ME. It will also test Russia and the 4+1 will to the strategic defense of the ME and by extension, of the Eurasian mass.

Posted by: Lone Wolf | Nov 24, 2015 9:28:44 AM | 39

The series of events that lead to the downing of the Su-24 probably happened in quick succession and I'm starting to think that all this was an accident by the turks.

Turkish jets have staved off russian jets near its borders with Syria before, even gone so far as having their defense radars locking onto a russian jet on one occasion. Why go any further than that and possibly kick of WWIII?

Turkey is seen as running to NATO for support that it may not get. If this indeed was a mistake by the turks, NATO would probably let the russians know that they won't take sides on this matter (while at the same time publicly professing solidarity with their turkish brothers).

Turkey may very well be left to fend for itself, at which point a visit to russia by the turkish head of state no normalize relations wouldn't be so bad.

Posted by: never mind | Nov 24, 2015 9:41:22 AM | 40

Posted by: b | Nov 24, 2015 9:05:57 AM | 35

Jordanian historical relations to the Ottoman empire are not that good.

www.kinghussein.gov.jo

Posted by: somebody | Nov 24, 2015 9:44:33 AM | 41

@24

The plan might be to shut down Bosporus and Dardanelles to Russian Navy

This has been a plan known to Russia for some time, Turkey/US/NATO have actively sought ways to break Montreux and stop the supply of necessary equipment to both Assad and the Russian Federation Forces active in Syria via the "Syria Express".

Posted by: alkomv | Nov 24, 2015 9:45:53 AM | 42

It gets worse..

Russian Su-24 pilots shot dead while parachuting over Syria - Turkmen militia

https://www.rt.com/news/323281-russian-pilots-killed-turkmen/

Posted by: Seder | Nov 24, 2015 9:47:06 AM | 43

Turkish jets have staved off russian jets near its borders with Syria before, even gone so far as having their defense radars locking onto a russian jet on one occasion. Why go any further than that and possibly kick of WWIII?

Posted by: never mind | Nov 24, 2015 9:41:22 AM | 39

That isn't even a difficult question to answer

You already admit that Turkey has (rightly or wrongly, it matters not) warned Russia several times on this point - quite strongly too : locked-on Air Defences being a pretty good indication that they didn't intend those warnings to be taken as a bluff.

The Turks obviously felt that Russia wasn't getting the message, regarding how serious the Turks were taking this issue, so clearly they decided to underline (rightly or wrongly) their objections this time.

I think Russia has got the message now.

their reply will be interesting . . .

Posted by: RTE | Nov 24, 2015 9:51:57 AM | 44

It gets worse..

Russian Su-24 pilots shot dead while parachuting over Syria - Turkmen militia

Posted by: Seder | Nov 24, 2015 9:47:06 AM | 42

Adding Insult to injury.

the Russian response is definitely going to be "interesting".

This is the problem with "interventions" - they have a habit of expanding, just when you least expect/want them to.

Once you're In - it's hard to get out again. And every life lost just makes it that little bit harder.

Posted by: RTE | Nov 24, 2015 9:55:11 AM | 45

It might be a retaliation of the same FSA rebels Russia has bombed in the same area a month ago. That Turkey wants to take responsibility for it fits in the current MSM campaign "the moderate rebels are going to fight IS with the 'free world'"... and therefore they'll get away with it. Reuters had a leak 2 days ago on an agreement of the West to extend sanctions against Russia. That was possibly leaked by Turkey, who is now pushing a little more its partners into agreeing with whatever plan she pretends to have.

Posted by: Mina | Nov 24, 2015 9:58:00 AM | 46

"Act strong when you are weak, and weak when you are strong"
- Sun Tzu

We may be about to find out which one of those two Putin thinks he is.

Posted by: RTE | Nov 24, 2015 9:58:36 AM | 47

@43

No one believes Russia is going to pause or back away by shooting down one of their planes (the opposite is more likely). So what would Turkey strategically gain from doing it if NATO isn't on board?

Posted by: never mind | Nov 24, 2015 9:59:52 AM | 48

It might be a retaliation of the same FSA rebels Russia has bombed in the same area a month ago. That Turkey wants to take responsibility for it fits in the current MSM campaign.

Posted by: Mina | Nov 24, 2015 9:58:00 AM | 45M

stop talking nonsense - Putin confirmed the Turkish claim of A-t-A fired by TAF.

posting nonsense like the above, when you already know it is not true, is just silly, and makes you look ill-informed and/or dishonest.

Posted by: RTE | Nov 24, 2015 10:01:55 AM | 49

Lone Wolf@38. "The next few days are crucial, and will test the extent of the US empire and its minions commitment to destroy Syria and control the ME". The US in alliance with Israel, Saudi Arabia and other Gulfies are determined to have hegemony over the middle east. The battle over Syria is crucial in that respect. In my opinion the Syrians with the help of Russia, Iran, Iraq and Hezbollah will triumph over the forces of medieval Wahhabism, and its enablers. The US position in the middle east is at stake, so they will go all in. In the case of Iran, Syria and Hezbollah this battle is existential, and so they will fight this battle to the bitter end.

Posted by: harry law | Nov 24, 2015 10:02:39 AM | 50

Apropos question of degree of US "nudge," I'm basically on the side of those who think no, first, and, anyway, Erdogan (user here as metonymy for Turkish "deep state") doesn't need nudge, and is used to US retroactively agreeing or covering-up whatever he decides to do, so there's no need to think Turkey's acting on behalf of anyone except itself.

HOWEVER, one news bit I've been reading here and there has been roughly to the effect that the CIA/other-three-letter-agencies people tasked with supplying/transporting/training the "moderate rebels" in Turkey have been in a very ugly "Bay of Pigs", Obama-fucked-us mood (a quote a journalist heard was, "Putin just made us his prison bitch"), and I imagine it's with those people that Turkish security types "interface" most from day to day. That might contribute to an odd idea of what DC would "really" want Turks to do.

All this obviously wildly speculative, and in a sense unnecessary in Occan's Razor terms (Erdogan quite capable of thinking this a good idea on his own). However, thought I'd bring up (possibly irrelevant) factor of a good number of pissed-off paramilitaries/contractors with little to do since Russia effectively shut down their "training" boondogle.

Posted by: Claud | Nov 24, 2015 10:05:53 AM | 51

So what would Turkey strategically gain from doing it if NATO isn't on board?

Posted by: never mind | Nov 24, 2015 9:59:52 AM | 47

  • "Don't fuck with us - we bite back.
  • If you do try to fuck with us, make sure you mean it, cos we are playing for keeps right now.
  • No do-overs.
  • So far this only cost you one or two pilots. "

Posted by: RTE | Nov 24, 2015 10:06:58 AM | 52

@51

You may very well be right (as we are only theorizing), but I don't think the turks are that foolhardy.

Posted by: never mind | Nov 24, 2015 10:15:29 AM | 53


https://www.rt.com/news/323240-russia-turkey-warplane-downed/

24 November 2015

14:38 GMT

Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan will chair a security meeting later on Tuesday to discuss the incident involving the downed Russian Su-24 bomber. The meeting will also be attended by Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu, the head of the armed forces General Hulusi Akar, the head of the MIT national intelligence agency Hakan Fidan and some ministers, Reuters reports citing presidential sources.
14:00 GMT

The Turkish foreign minister has summoned the representatives of the five UN Security Council permanent members – China, France, Germany, Russia and the US - to brief them on the incident involving the downed Russian Su-24 bomber.

13:29 GMT

The Russian Su-24 was downed while returning to the Khmeimim airbase, the Russian Ministry of Defense reported.

“A Russian Su-24 was downed by a Turkish F-16 fighter over the territory of the Syrian Arab Republic while returning to the Khmeimim airbase. Objective monitoring data showed that there was no violation of Syrian airspace,” the statement from the ministry said.

Posted by: Neretva'43 | Nov 24, 2015 10:16:06 AM | 54

NATO treaties are outdated. Erdogan is a Islamist nutcase. The U.S. has no reason to stand behind him expect for rights of airspace to conduct ops. But I think the U.S. and Russians are cozying up to defeat ISIS, so there may be a new world security order soon.
A world where the U.S. and Russia are allied seems a better outcome anyway.

So if I had to guess, Russia pulled a "Cuba on Kennedy" by baiting Turkey to shoot down a plane and force Obama's hand on Erdogan. By isolating Turkey much of the earning's capacity of ISIS is thwarted. Obama will have no choice but to call for calm publicly but scold in the U.N. meeting privately.

Once he does that, he separates from Turkey, and either NATO itself, or more likely NATO will cut loose Turkey. But for France, the U.S., Belgium, the UK and USA along with Russia to be unified against ISIS, Erdogan is odd man out. Now NATO will not formally dismiss Turkey, but tacitly undermine it. I expect that a subtle move Obama will make will be to withdraw the extra fighter jets sent to symbolically bolster Erdogan, as a signal to Russia of denouncement.

Posted by: MrBenny | Nov 24, 2015 10:18:59 AM | 55

UberLulz

Dear Mr Moonbeam Of Alabamy, . . .

A site-search of MoonOfAlabama using the phrase "winding down"

>M of A - "Western" Media Silent As Iraq And 4+1 Inflict Huge Islamic ... http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/10/western-media-silent-as-iraq-inflicts-huge-islamic-state-defeat-.html- Im Cache 21 Oct 2015 ... On Friday, as fighting in the district was winding down and militants were fleeing north towards Mosul or northeast towards Hawijah, the ...

>M of A - Syria: Negotiating Ethnic Cleansing And A Temporary Partition
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/08/syria-towards-temporary-partition-based-on-negotiated-ethnic-cleansing.html - Im Cache

4 Aug 2015 ... Sorry, but this war is winding down. More hard work is still to be done in Idlib and the border with Iraq but anyone believing idiotic stories about ...

>M of A - October 2015
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/10/ - Im Cache

31 Oct 2015 ... On Friday, as fighting in the district was winding down and militants were fleeing north towards Mosul or northeast towards Hawijah, the ...

>M of A - There Are U.S. Special Forces In South Syria
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/10/there-are-us-special-forces-in-south-syria.html - Im Cache

12 Oct 2015 ... But the war is winding down. More damage has been done to anti Assad forces in 2 weeks than the last 2 years. The next few weeks will have ...

>M of A - Syria: How U.S. Pays SNC, Auxiliaries Pull Back, Fake Rape
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2012/07/syria-how-us-pays-snc-auxiliaries-pull-back-fake-rape.html - Im Cache

12 Jul 2012 ... They recognize that the U.S. project for regime change in Syria has for now failed and are winding down their part of it. As I currently read it the ...

. . . So long, and thanks for all the "predictions"..

Posted by: TV3 | Nov 24, 2015 10:22:25 AM | 56

You can bet that USA and France were well aware of Turkey's support for ISIS - and well before the Charlie Hebdo attack. Yet it is Russia that: details the funding for ISIS; seriously attacks oil trucks; publicly names Turkey as an ISIS 'accomplice'.

The West should have demanded that Turkey cease their support of ISIS long ago. Instead, we get political/police theatre: troops in the streets, mild airstrikes, aircraft carrier deployments, MSM's amplifying of Islamophobia (ISIS is everywhere!, refugees = ISIS!, oh-hum reporting of attacks on refugees),etc.

Prediction: NATO will support Turkey's defending of its airspace.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 24, 2015 10:23:00 AM | 57

TV3-there is a difference between throwing a party and cleaning up a mess. This is cleaning mode. MoA is right.

Posted by: MrBenny | Nov 24, 2015 10:24:05 AM | 58

"Educate yourself first than speak up, OK?"

Not very civil, Neretva'43. Besides, participating in discussions such as this one is one of the main ways in which we can educate ourselves. What other sources do you suggest? The BBC? CNN? The Guardian?

Posted by: Tom Welsh | Nov 24, 2015 10:34:09 AM | 59

You may very well be right (as we are only theorizing), but I don't think the turks are that foolhardy.

Posted by: never mind | Nov 24, 2015 10:15:29 AM | 52

Well clearly the Turks thought about this before they went and did it. And they obviously figured whatever price to pay will be worth it.

BUT: Whether anyone here likes it or not, by all International laws and standards they had every right to do what they did.

This "it only entered Turk airspace for a very short time" excuse that people are and will be proffering, is nonsense. It did enter, and that's all that matters from the Turk p.o.v.

Diplomatically and Politically it is probably a v. v. bad move, but we'll have to wait and see what Putin's response will be. This is a v delicate situation, but right now, legally Turkey is on solid ground.

BTW: such a response was always a very strong possibility, given that Russia and Turkey have been playing footsie over this from day one. the Russkies decided to push the point and now Turkey have pushed back.

Mexican Standoff

Posted by: RTE | Nov 24, 2015 10:38:33 AM | 60

@RTE:

"Once you're In - it's hard to get out again".

As the Russians say, "it's a kopeck to get in, but a rouble to get out". Where a rouble may mean a life.

Posted by: Tom Welsh | Nov 24, 2015 10:39:17 AM | 61

Chameleon on Hudson, a.k.a. "New York Times" opens the story like that:

ISTANBUL — Turkish fighter jets on patrol near the Syrian border on Tuesday shot down a Russian warplane that Turkey said had violated its airspace, a long-feared escalation that could further strain relations between Russia and the West.

but on the main page, the story has this one paragraph (and the link):

President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia confirmed that an F-16 Turkish fighter jet brought down a Russian jet, but he said it had remained in Syrian airspace and never threatened Turkey’s territory.

NYT is a ranking member if US establishment and the editors try to be "responsible", and carefully sort what part of the story should be on top, and which below (and if it should be covered, of course). And Pentagon seems to have quite divergent policy from the White House.


Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 24, 2015 10:39:24 AM | 62

I have been racking my brains trying to understand what Turkey has in common with the North Atlantic. Can anyone explain?

Posted by: Tom Welsh | Nov 24, 2015 10:42:46 AM | 63

NATO needs Turkish geography for airspace purposes to flank eastern nations who would otherwise intervene in the Middle East. Turkey's benefit is largely financial-cake and eat it too sort of thing.

Posted by: MrBenny | Nov 24, 2015 10:45:57 AM | 64

never mind
39 & 52

What makes you think that NATO is NOT on-board? I have as yet seen little to indicate that that might be so.

=============

This may turn out to be a positive overall. If NATO won't publicly back Turkey on this, then the Turks might finally realise that NATO is NOT their friend, and maybe leave NATO altogether. Re-approachment with Russia would not be long in coming thereafter.

I wonder if the Turks have figured out that Turkey itself may be one of the actual targets here. (Not a Russian Target, btw)

Posted by: RTE | Nov 24, 2015 10:46:39 AM | 65

RTE
Don't troll with me.

Posted by: Mina | Nov 24, 2015 10:46:50 AM | 66

As expected-US/NATO distances themselves from incident-Despite Turkey being a NATO member, the US military spokesman said the downing of the Russian warplane is an issue to be settled between Ankara and Moscow.

"This is an incident between the Russian and the Turkish governments. It is not an issue that involves the [US-led coalition operations]. Our combat operations against ISIL (IS, ISIS) continue as planned and we are striking in both Iraq and Syria," Steve Warren, spokesman for the US-led Combined Joint Task Force, is cited as saying by Reuters.

Posted by: MrBenny | Nov 24, 2015 10:49:33 AM | 67

VIDEO: Turkey shoots down Russian jet near Syria-Turkey Border https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pgJqq_PACg&list=PLfrlsC1yJ2dRxiSkduAzL6IK1ZluAdxoM

Posted by: Tom Murphy | Nov 24, 2015 10:50:04 AM | 68

If you read between the lines carefully-Turkey's first move was to run to NATO. But the five members of the U.N. had the meeting-and the statement say. If this leads to anything, it will likely be the dissolution or irrelevance of NATO.

Posted by: MrBenny | Nov 24, 2015 10:51:24 AM | 69

RTE@64 I wonder if the Turks have figured out that Turkey itself may be one of the actual targets here. (Not a Russin Target, btw)

Unlikely given that KSA and Israel fully support anti-Iran actions and the West has been mute regarding Turkey's support for ISIS - even after the Paris attacks.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 24, 2015 10:51:35 AM | 70

The US Gov. recently deployed 8 F-15C from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/493d_Fighter_Squadron , as they say

"The 493d FS is a combat-ready F-15 Eagle squadron capable of executing air superiority and air defense missions in support of United States Air Forces in Europe, United States European Command, and NATO operations. It employs air-to-air weapons and electronic identification systems. The squadron has the ability to rapidly generate, deploy, and sustain operations to execute wartime and peacetime taskings in any theater of operations in the world.[2]

aircraft to the Incirlik AB, Turkey.

What else needs to be said?

Posted by: Neretva'43 | Nov 24, 2015 10:52:04 AM | 71

President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia confirmed that an F-16 Turkish fighter jet brought down a Russian jet, but he said it had remained in Syrian airspace and never threatened Turkey’s territory.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 24, 2015 10:39:24 AM | 61

Putin is clearly wrong on that, provided the map linked by b above (http://www.moonofalabama.org/images4/flightpath-s.jpg) is correct. It clearly shows that the Russian Aircraft did enter Turkish Airspace.

IF, so it would make sense right now for Putin to fess up and apologise, so as to defuse an already volatile situation. Later on, after the dust settles a little, he might decide to educate the Turks on which of the two plays a better game of "chicken".

Posted by: RTE | Nov 24, 2015 10:53:19 AM | 72

Czech president slams Russia jet downing by Turkey
http://presstv.com/Detail/2015/11/24/438988/Czech-Republic-Turkey-downing-Russian-jet

Posted by: Seder | Nov 24, 2015 10:54:39 AM | 73

RTE
Don't troll with me.

Posted by: Mina | Nov 24, 2015 10:46:50 AM | 65

Don't post things you already know to be false, and I'll very happily ignore you entirely.

Posted by: RTE | Nov 24, 2015 10:55:06 AM | 74

Translation above: You are on your own. You (Erdogan) acted a fool and we do not consider this anything other than a rash act of impatience. Now you deal with Putin on your own.

Posted by: MrBenny | Nov 24, 2015 10:55:44 AM | 75

I don't understand the flight path map.

Did the Russian jet circle 'round for a second pass over Turkish airspace? Or, was their a second Russian jet?

What am I missing?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 24, 2015 10:58:28 AM | 76

The timing (Hollande was on the plane) is meant to oblige France to take side between Turkey and Russia (after they had started to coordinate for dropping bombs on Raqqa and on IS in Iraq). Hollande has now just arrived Washington for his meeting with Obama. The location of the so-called incident is very much some of these few places where FSA actually exists (see the Reuters article posted above:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/20/us-mideast-crisis-syria-latakia-idUSKCN0SE0M420151020). The fact they are allied with Turkmenn djihadists is something Hollande and Fabius have been trying to hide to their opinions, and so is Obama. So again, as always since the beginning of the war on Syria, everytime there is a hope, there is an escalation. I hope the Turks will pay the price one day. They have had genocidal policies for more than a century in this area.

Posted by: Mina | Nov 24, 2015 10:58:58 AM | 77

How can Russia retaliate?

Russia will have to spent some coin, obviously, but cutting off the gas can be too expensive to start with that. I guess some of the best troops will be sent to clear the north of Latakia province. The improvement of air defenses will continue. But the most delicious retaliation would be the installation of air defenses in Qandil/Kandil region of Iraq (this is where PKK is). Putin's style is to rattle such possibilities for a long time, but I guess that he can be snappier now, starting with the completion of the deal with Iran. Kandil is in Iraqi side of the three-border point of Iraq, Iran and Turkey.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Nov 24, 2015 11:00:04 AM | 78

I think the Russians pulled a Lemay baits JFK trick.

Posted by: MrBenny | Nov 24, 2015 11:00:07 AM | 79

Mr. Benny@66: Steve Warren, spokesman for the US-led Combined Joint Task Force

Not a NATO spokesperson.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 24, 2015 11:02:03 AM | 80

But I read here in Oct. Turkey changed the border by 5 miles.

Posted by: Daisee | Nov 24, 2015 11:07:02 AM | 81

US F-15 deployment supports OIR, Turkish airspace

http://www.usafe.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123463311

The Turks fells safe and protected!?

Posted by: Neretva'43 | Nov 24, 2015 11:07:21 AM | 82

Anything uttered not anonymously by U.S. military is part and parcel a NATO position. If there is one thing the Pentagon can be counted upon to do is stay on message. Were NATO itself to diverge from this would signal a new security order indeed.

Posted by: MrBenny | Nov 24, 2015 11:07:51 AM | 83

RTE @59. "by all International laws and standards they had every right to do what they did". I disagree, Russia is not at war with Turkey, violation of someones airspace, [if it happened] should be dealt with diplomatically. What Turkey did was a act of war, there can be no doubt about that.

Posted by: harry law | Nov 24, 2015 11:10:01 AM | 84

The US military said it couldn’t offer a precise location where the Russian jet was downed by Turkey, only saying that it happened "at the border" between Syria and Turkey.

When asked to confirm Turkish accounts that the Russian plane was warned ten times before being engaged, Steve Warren, a spokesman for the US-led military campaign against Islamic State, said: "I can confirm that. Yes."

However, he didn’t specify whether the US knew this independently, or if it was relying on Turkish accounts.

Translation-"We are not passing judgment on whether this was or was not an airspace violation, which is all you need to know for Treaty purposes."

Posted by: MrBenny | Nov 24, 2015 11:11:03 AM | 85

How can the EU berate Mr Erdogan too harshly since they are dependent on him to stop the flow of refugees?

Merkel backs multibillion-euro refugee package for Turkey

German chancellor Angela Merkel has backed giving Turkey a multibillion-euro aid package to cope with refugees, giving impetus to a provisional EU deal with Ankara that aims to slow the flow of migrants to the EU.
snip

....will give 2m Syrian refugees a legal route to make a living in Turkey,....MORE:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ba4ce796-7348-11e5-bdb1-e6e4767162cc.html#axzz3sQRaMY6K

I am wondering if Erodgan thought this through. Could it have been a rogue act initiated by Erdogan's son? He could not be too happy loosing his side work.

Posted by: shadyl | Nov 24, 2015 11:19:30 AM | 86

Sorry Mr authoritarian RTE, you smell like a troll and you are a troll. I don't drink Putin's words as God's talk and there were initially TWO versions of the incident. On one side you pretend that since Putin said it was shot by a plane (I had not realized that he had validated this version at the time) it must be true, and then you say that Turkey has the right to shoot planes and cover its allies when they shoot ejected pilots in the sky. Sorry, I don't buy your rhetoric. FO

Posted by: Mina | Nov 24, 2015 11:23:16 AM | 87

@Piotr Berman #77:

How can Russia retaliate?

With all due respect, I think that misses the "big picture". Turkey had plans to grab a piece of Syrian territory for itself. Russia has decided that it will ensure that Syria keeps its present government and borders. Turkey is showing that it will not let Russia do that without putting up a fight.

This incident was kind of inevitable, because of the conflicting Russian and "Western" discourses. Russia and Syria say that all Syrian territory must be cleansed of terrorists; the West has been talking of a "safe zone" on the Turkish border. And then there's the issue that Oui brought up at #32, that Turkey was never happy with the present border.

Posted by: Demian | Nov 24, 2015 11:28:06 AM | 88

RTE @59. "by all International laws and standards they had every right to do what they did". I disagree, Russia is not at war with Turkey, violation of someones airspace, [if it happened] should be dealt with diplomatically. What Turkey did was a act of war, there can be no doubt about that.

Posted by: harry law | Nov 24, 2015 11:10:01 AM | 83

You can disagree all you like, but you'll still be talking nonsense

Russia is not at war with Turkey, violation of someones airspace, [if it happened] should be dealt with diplomatically.
Violation of Turkish Airspace by a Russian Military Aircraft is an illegal act, whether you like it or not. Remember this was a Military aircraft, not a civilian aircraft. Crossing into the territory of a Sovereign state is a pretty grave breach of protocol, which almost never happens by "accident".

The Russkies knew what they were doing when they did it - they are not children. They knew the range of possible outcomes. I'm sure they have gamed their response - if not then they are much much more foolish than I ever considered possible.

Similarly the Turks knew what they were doing when they did it - they too are not children. They too knew the range of possible outcomes. It takes two to tango after all.

Given that the violation appears to have occurred, according to the map above, and given that such violations have appear to have occurred on a regular enough basis, it's up to the Turks how they choose to respond.

YOU might think that they should have only responded diplomatically, and I might even agree with you, but that is not your or my call to make.

The Turks are under no obligation to respond diplomatically when a foreign power repeatedly violates their airspace. Nor are they obliged to consider your or my wishes when they do choose to respond.

"What Turkey did was a act of war, there can be no doubt about that.

Wrong again - replying militarily when someone violates your airspace is not necessarily an act of war. \

BUT: Repeatedly violating the Airspace of a potential enemy is always a potential act of war, (whether you like it or not).

Until today the Turks have chosen to ignore these provocations. Today they chose not to.

Posted by: RTE | Nov 24, 2015 11:29:02 AM | 89

Posted by: Mina | Nov 24, 2015 11:23:16 AM | 86

Once again: Don't post things you already know to be false, and I'll very happily ignore you entirely.

Posted by: RTE | Nov 24, 2015 11:30:18 AM | 90

edit

Until today the Turks have chosen to ignore these provocations. Today they chose not to.

Posted by: RTE | Nov 24, 2015 11:29:02 AM | 88

Until today the Turks have not chosen to respond militarily to these provocations. Today they chose to.

Posted by: RTE | Nov 24, 2015 11:38:39 AM | 91

RTE: could you stop being paranoid and giving people intentions they don't have?

Good article about the Turkmen villages.
http://www.lemonde.fr/proche-orient/article/2015/11/24/qui-sont-les-turkmenes_4816573_3218.html
Turkey is trying to provoke a crisis in Hatay because it is afraid of losing this buffer zone it wants to create on a soil which never belonged to it (see the links of OUI above)

Posted by: Mina | Nov 24, 2015 11:39:32 AM | 92

for the 3rd time

Don't post things you already know to be false, and I'll very happily ignore you entirely.


Posted by: RTE | Nov 24, 2015 11:41:22 AM | 93

Looks like we've got a new Islamist troll.

Posted by: Demian | Nov 24, 2015 11:42:45 AM | 94

Posted by: RTE | Nov 24, 2015 11:29:02 AM | 88

Problem with your reasoning is that the Russian plane seems to have been shot down in Syrian not in Turkish airspace so the violation is Turkish - if there has been a Russian violation before or not.

To shoot down an airplane is an act of war. Turkey dares to do it because they are part of NATO. NATO's reaction will tell if they back this provocation of Russia or not.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 24, 2015 11:44:31 AM | 95

Problem with your reasoning is that the Russian plane seems to have been shot down in Syrian not in Turkish airspace so the violation is Turkish - if there has been a Russian violation before or not.

So what? If it entered Turkish airspace then it made itself a legit target, whether you like it or not.

Leaving Turkish airspace shortly after violating it, won't automatically make you "not a legit target". and I'm pretty sure the Russkies knew that before they did it.


To shoot down an airplane is an act of war.

In and of itself it is not - shooting down a military aircraft after it violates your airspace is NOT an act of war.

To violate the Airspace of a foreign power is also an act of war. The violation came first.

Turkey dares to do it because they are part of NATO. NATO's reaction will tell if they back this provocation of Russia or not.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 24, 2015 11:44:31 AM | 94

Turkey would not have dared to do it had the plane not violated Turkish airspace.

Posted by: RTE | Nov 24, 2015 11:50:42 AM | 96

Or just another bipolar...

Posted by: Mina | Nov 24, 2015 11:50:55 AM | 97

I wonder if we're seeing the beginning of a no-fly zone along the turk-syr border.
Both Turkey and the US have wanted this for a long time...

Posted by: GoraDiva | Nov 24, 2015 11:54:39 AM | 98

well, someone is really desperate for a bit of attention

for the 4th time:
Don't post things you already know to be false, and I'll very happily ignore you entirely.

Posted by: RTE | Nov 24, 2015 11:54:48 AM | 99

Could 'b' stand up and ban RTE troll? Thank you.

Posted by: Harry | Nov 24, 2015 11:55:06 AM | 100

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