Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 28, 2014

"Zero Proof" - The "Russian Invasion" Of Ukraine

Updated below

The authors of this NYT piece, Ukraine Reports Russian Invasion on a New Front, are not really convincing when presenting these reports by the Ukrainian government as truthful:

The latest incursion, which Ukraine’s military said included five armored personnel carriers, was at least the third movement of troops and weapons from Russia across the southeast part of the border this week, further blunting the momentum Ukrainian forces have made in weakening the insurgents in their redoubts of Donetsk and Luhansk farther north. Evidence of a possible turn was seen in the panicky retreat of Ukrainian soldiers on Tuesday from a force they said had come over the Russian border.
...
Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for the Ukrainian military in Kiev, said the Russian armored column entered the town of Amvrosiyivka, south of Donetsk, expanding what Western and Ukrainian officials have described as one of the main fronts in a multipronged counteroffensive directed by Russia.

The "momentum" the Ukrainian troops had was never as big as the Ukrainian government had claimed. A few motorized brigades ran through open territory held by few insurgents and when coming to a halt at their primary target were immediately cut off and surrounded. Their moral is bad, their equipment old, ammunition is low and the entire aim of their campaign is dubious. Now even a few weak counterattacks, the "counteroffensive", have them on the run.

While the piece repeats the Ukrainian claim that Russian material, including ammunition, passed over the border the third picture shows some 20+ wooden boxes of RPGs and the caption says:

"A villager opened a box of rocket-propelled grenades left by the Ukrainian Army in Starobecheve, southeast of Donetsk. Pro-Russia rebels took over the town after the military withdrew."

Obviously the fleeing Ukrainian troops are leaving a lot of goodies behind.

Then there is this:

The separatists have asserted that they are using captured Ukrainian equipment. But American officials say they are confident that the artillery in the Krasnodon area of Ukraine is Russia’s since Ukrainian forces have not penetrated that deeply into that separatist-controlled region. American officials also say the separatists have no experience in using such weaponry.

That bold part is of course utter bullshit. The Donetsk miners and volunteers from Russia all have had regular military service. They surely will be able to handle Grad systems, little evolved from World War II, and other artillery.

The United States has photographs that show the Russian artillery moved into Ukraine, American officials say. One photo dated last Thursday, shown to a New York Times reporter, shows Russian military units moving self-propelled artillery into Ukraine. Another photo, dated Saturday, shows the artillery in firing positions in Ukraine.

"Shown to one NYT reporter" who likely can not differentiate a Grad system from a pipe organ is hardly any proof. Why doesn't the U.S. publish the picture?

On the highway in Novoazovsk on Tuesday, Sgt. Ihor Sharapov, a soldier with the Ukrainian border patrol unit, said he had seen tanks drive across the border, although they were marked with flags of the Donetsk People’s Republic. Others suggested the flags were a ruse.

“I tell you they are Russians, but this is what proof I have,” said Sgt. Aleksei Panko, holding up his thumb and index finger to form a zero.

Zero proof - indeed. I have absolutely no doubt that Russian volunteers are fighting on the insurgency side. I have no doubt that some ammunition is coming from Russia. But judging from pictures of equipment and ammunition the insurgents use nearly all of it seems to be the same Soviet era stuff the Ukrainian army is using. I have yet to see and big updated Russian equipment in their hands. The big Russian invasion the Ukrainian government claims is very unlikely to have happened.

Update

This is a quite amazing "information operation" without doubt of U.S. origin.

Consider: The Ukrainian President talks about Russian affiliated insurgents in east-Ukraine and Reuters and others distribute this as "invasion". After all major news-entities repeated the "invasion" claim and the public damage is done they simply take it back.

Consider this from Tagesschau, the highest rated German TV news show:

Translation:

On #Ukraine there was a translation error by the agency Reuters: According to the correction Poroshenko did not talk of an invasion.

So there was an "invasion", distributed by major news agencies, which then turns out to have been a translation error or an intentional Poroshenko 'screw up'.

Notice that one author of the NYT piece above is Michael Gordon, who, together with Judith Miller, wrote sensational reports about proof of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The current head of NATO who is promoting war against Russia, Fogh-of-war Rassmussen, said 11 years ago: "Iraq has WMDs. It is not something we think, it is something we know".

These folks and the western news agencies that promoted the WMD in Iraq claims are now claiming a Russian "invasion" in Ukraine only to retract it when the damage is done. Warmongers. All of them.

Posted by b on August 28, 2014 at 07:49 AM | Permalink

Comments
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Hypothetically speaking, what if the proof does come — what would be your response then? If it's more rationalizing and justification for Putin's obvious aggression, then why even argue this point right now?

It's obvious Ukraine is being hung out to dry by The West. Perhaps this was the reason for Obama being awarded the Nobel Peace Prize prematurely. It was preemptive in anticipation of this moment. It was granted to Obama knowing he had agreed to step aside and let Putin expand whilst putting on a good rhetorical defense for show.

If so, the innuendo by some that Obama is a Communist may well be founded. So too for a handful of the leadership of the European Union and the administration of NATO. The Communists have been playing dead for 25 years whilst they've been hollowing out The West in a bloodless coup.

The West has fed Ukraine to the Russian bear. The West is now The East, effectively. There is no longer any refuge. Freedom is lost, and once you lose it, it's a bitch and near impossible to get back.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Aug 28, 2014 8:34:46 AM | 1

Considering the non-elite citizens of the US have effectively no say in policy, what would happen if all of a sudden our government and media began shooting straight? Seems to me, pretty much nothing. It's not that most of the people I know don't realize we are being deceived to advance an altogether hidden agenda, it's that they simply don't care and are unaware of even the fabricated story.

Posted by: IHaveLittleToAdd | Aug 28, 2014 8:35:12 AM | 2

b, do get rid of the tiresome fool Holefield. Dilutes quite seriously the excellent news-usefulness of MOA to have cretins like that let in. And obviously that's his/her/their purpose. All the most impressive sites I follow have strict moderation, and are mercifully troll/shill/hasbarollockser/cretin-free.

Posted by: Rhisiart Gwilym | Aug 28, 2014 9:03:13 AM | 3

Rhisiart Gwilym |

While I agree you cant say that here, its against the rules.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 28, 2014 9:18:33 AM | 4

Is the junta a group of newbies? They were just to take the land from the rebels and now when they are getting pushed away by the rebels again, they scream invasion, invasion, invasion!
REally weird people in ukraine.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 28, 2014 9:33:46 AM | 5

@# 1: Yes, let's all fear the Commies, meanwhile, we'll send them(see China)most of our manufacturing sector and grow their economy. That'll subdue them. Seriously?

Posted by: ben | Aug 28, 2014 9:40:53 AM | 6

@Cold N. Holefield,

You confuse me. You started by questioning b's quick dismissal of the NYT story, but then you quickly jump into your own theory of why Kiev is losing the battle without any proof to support your theory. I'm sure that you can realize that you are committing the same offence you alleged b committed. I'm inclined to agree with b's analysis of the NYT report, because I have been following the events in Ukraine. And really it is not so much of a surprise that the rag-tag and under-equiped fighters from Kiev are being routed. As I write this there is a protest going on in Kiev asking for the resignation of the president and the defence minister. Poroshenko has been lying to his paymasters about the success of the campaign in the East, and I believe that the American officials know it and the NYT perhaps knows it as well. It's a pity that one has to take anything coming from the NYT these days with a pinch of salt. The glorious days of the paper have long passed.

Posted by: Tayo | Aug 28, 2014 9:41:59 AM | 7

from Business Insider:


"Geopolitical expert Ian Bremmer, the president of Eurasia Group, told Business Insider in an email that Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko is now backed into a corner. And Bremmer said he'll likely seek a quick ceasefire solution to prevent his country's economy from completely collapsing.

The Ukrainian government has been in an impossible position, they gambled, and they've lost," Bremmer said. "Poroshenko now needs a ceasefire so that he can try to restart negotiations, the terms of which will effectively mean freezing the conflict and ceding significant pieces of Ukrainian territory to the separatists. That's politically perilous for him and risks counterdemonstrations against his government in kiev. All the while his economy will be falling apart, with very limited support from the West.

"But there's no other way out."

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-russia-at-war-invasion-2014-8#ixzz3Bh9J4qxg

Posted by: okie farmer | Aug 28, 2014 10:01:34 AM | 8

Coldie: "Hypothetically speaking,"....

Riiiiight.

Coldie: "what if the proof does come"....

Then there will be proof of your assertion, of which there is currently none.

Coldie: "what would be your response then?"....

My response would be that you have finally got evidence to support your proposition.

Which (have I said this already?) would be a marked improvement on your current situation, which involves a complete lack of evidence.

Coldie: "If it's more rationalizing and justification for Putin's obvious aggression,"....

Well, yeah, and if pigs could fly then we'll all have to carry umbrellas.

But since I don't see any airborne piggies.......

Coldie: "then why even argue this point right now?"....

Well, gosh, possibly because you've just argued to your own straw man.

b is arguing that there is no "Russian invasion", and he appears to be correct.

By all means start your interrogation AFTER the Russians prove b wrong by launching an invasion.

But (I have mentioned this already, haven't I?) until they do that then your ludicrous questions amount to nothing more than an exercise in "jumping the gun".

An apt expression indeed, but rather and exercise in futility.

Posted by: Johnboy | Aug 28, 2014 10:05:50 AM | 9

@7 Cold One's post is basically an attack on the Obama administration. Not for encouraging Kiev to use the military against it's own citizens but for making a mess of it. He wants to see NATO intervention.

Posted by: dh | Aug 28, 2014 10:06:29 AM | 10

Translation error. It's how all msm reporting is executed. Notice how they ake claims as fact and in the next sentence or somewhere deeper in the story they retract it. The msm knows most people will hear the story before work and won't follow up and look at it again. the msm run a story in the morning filled with bullshyte, then run a story stating the bullshyte they ran earlier in the day was unverified. It is a propagandists dream scenario and the internet allows more of this because when you only had a physical newspaper you could not do that bait and switch in real time. It just muddies the whole public discourse of current geo political events. One person says I heard this and the other says no so I heard this. Total msm created mass confusion by design.

Posted by: really | Aug 28, 2014 10:06:54 AM | 11

from same site:


The new front opened in Amvrosiivka and Starobeshevo opens a pathway to Crimea, which Russia annexed with special forces troops in March.


The fear is that Russia is attempting to create a land link between Russia and the strategic peninsula.

Russian troops are leading a separatist counteroffensive in the east, bringing in tanks and using artillery from inside Ukrainian territory.

A Russian-backed rebel leader said that at least 3,000 to 4,000 Russian troops were fighting inside Ukraine.

"Current servicemen are also fighting in our ranks, as they came to us to struggle for our freedom instead of their vacations," prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) Alexander Zakharchenko told Russian media. "This is characteristic only for Russians."

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/ukrainian-president-russian-troops-are-advancing-in-ukraine-2014-8#ixzz3BhCKLjZT

Posted by: okie farmer | Aug 28, 2014 10:09:19 AM | 12

You started by questioning b's quick dismissal of the NYT story, but then you quickly jump into your own theory of why Kiev is losing the battle without any proof to support your theory. I'm sure that you can realize that you are committing the same offence you alleged b committed.

I'm not alleging that b committed any offense. I accept that the Western media may be de facto lying by taking Kiev's word for it. My question is despite Kiev's misinformation, and the Western media's misinformation, what if it's true nonetheless? What do you say then?

It's not as if all sides don't lie. Russia and its media lied about Russian soldiers in Crimea when they denied it. They're denying now as they did then, so why should I believe them now?

And if it's true, and they are sending military columns across the border into Ukraine to bolster the "separatist" effort, why not just admit it? It's not as though NATO is going to act with boots on the ground. It's clear to me, and I would hope any person of intelligence, that at this point NATO and The West in general, are full of hot air. They're blustery rhetoric and feckless sanctions but nothing more — a Paper Tiger.

Considering that, if Russia is guilty as charged, why doesn't it just man up and say "yeah, so what, what are you going do about it?"

My other comment about the Communist Peace Prize Obama, tainted with tongue-in-cheek satire, is grasping at possible explanations for The West's inexplicable failure to act and get Ukraine's back considering it goaded it to escalate to this point.

The Traitors Amongst Us

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Aug 28, 2014 10:34:03 AM | 13

He wants to see NATO intervention.

Posted by: dh | Aug 28, 2014 10:06:29 AM | 10

Not true. I don't want to see NATO intervention. What I want has nothing to do with it.

NATO will not intervene and I'm chastising it for its contradictory hypocrisy.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Aug 28, 2014 10:36:18 AM | 14

@14 I tend to agree. NATO is all talk. But you obviously want some kind of tougher response to the evil Russians. What would you suggest? More sanctions? More weapons for Kiev?

Posted by: dh | Aug 28, 2014 10:42:11 AM | 15

"Shown to one NYT reporter" who likely can not differentiate a Grad system from a pipe organ is hardly any proof". That's a little unfair, the Katyusha rocket launcher was commonly known as "Stalins organ".

Posted by: harry law | Aug 28, 2014 10:44:32 AM | 16

@ 3, 4, 7, 9, 10.
Have you no self-respect?
Cold is as entitled to post here, occasionally, as anyone else on the www and imho is probably quite used to being ignored in real life...
Think of it as "tradition" and duplicate his reality, here, at MoA.
The people responding to him on this thread are cluttering up the thread far more than Cold has ever, or will ever, do.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Aug 28, 2014 10:45:17 AM | 17

@17 Sorry about the clutter Hoarse but I'm curious to hear Cold One's solution to the problems in Ukraine. He seems to be pretty good at doublespeak and I'd like to pin him down.

Posted by: dh | Aug 28, 2014 10:49:34 AM | 18

But you obviously want some kind of tougher response to the evil Russians. What would you suggest? More sanctions? More weapons for Kiev?

Once again, what I want has no bearing. I simply observe and point out the contradictions. b does as well as he's aptly done with this post. The NYT does have a record of cleverly lying as he's indicated, just as most, if not all, media does these days if not always.

What one wants and what is and will be are, for the most part, mutually exclusive when it comes to these matters, especially when what you want is in the severe minority.

For the record, I don't believe this is comparable to the lead up to the Iraq war under Dubya. If the NYT is lying this time, it's for different reasons.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Aug 28, 2014 10:57:09 AM | 19

@19 You pretend to be balanced but your other posts suggest otherwise. b takes a much firmer position as do most people here. I think you are being evasive. Obviously there's no point in discussing it further.

Posted by: dh | Aug 28, 2014 11:06:03 AM | 20

Guys could you please stop responding (and reading) posts by Cold and similar trolls? Just ignore him. b' for some reason keeps real trolls but bans quality posters, therefore a smart thing to do is to auto-filter out troll posts ourselves.

Posted by: Harry | Aug 28, 2014 11:11:41 AM | 21

@21 I'll talk to whoever I want Harry. If b bans him so be it.

Posted by: dh | Aug 28, 2014 11:17:51 AM | 22

Seems NATO really miscalculated when they started this coup in Kiev. Now they're shitting bricks at the thought of Russian troops getting involved.

This war may very well end up in one major EU capital. Again, Europeans dying for America's empire dreams. Nice :^)

Posted by: Zico | Aug 28, 2014 11:25:10 AM | 23

Desperation from Kiev Coupists!

There are at least 3 ways of seeing the false, mocked-up, reports of a Russian invasion, not mutually exclusive:

1) Kiev is screaming for support from the US and/or EU - cum - NATO. They don’t realise that they are low man-on-the-pole and that mimicking US actions (false flags, terror ops, spin, hype, outright lies, etc.) is no guarantee of success, the US + vassal-EU can change stance on a dime. (Certain.)

2) The US wants that *ultimate* WW, and it doesn’t really matter what or how it is justified, there just needs to be crazed confused strife, blustering, extreme alarm, etc. (Most doubtful.)

3) MSM actors on the ground, or off it, pundits, are in the grip of a kind of ‘group-think’ where any news or fabrications that support some power have been, in the past, provoked, encouraged and endorsed. They are in the grip of a kind of permanent collective hysteria, which is naturally lucrative / favorable for them. Similar to reports on the sex-lives of Stars, pedophilia scandals, NSA spying, etc. (Obvious)

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 28, 2014 11:33:42 AM | 24

Seems NATO really miscalculated when they started this coup in Kiev. Now they're shitting bricks at the thought of Russian troops getting involved.

This war may very well end up in one major EU capital. Again, Europeans dying for America's empire dreams. Nice :^)

Posted by: Zico | Aug 28, 2014 11:25:10 AM | 23

This comment is the reason for the question in my opening comment. This comment gives Putin's Russia carte blanche to do whatever it will without responsibility or accountability. So even if it proves to be true and Putin is moving military columns across the border into Ukraine the excuse then will be "well, so what?"

It will always be The West's, and America's fault, and by virtue of that Putin, if he wished, at least in the eyes of commentators like this, could roll across Europe leaving blood-drenched and charred soil in his wake and it would always be the fault of The West and America.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Aug 28, 2014 11:35:47 AM | 25

@23 If you don't count a Somaliazation or sorry Libyanization of greater Kiev, the NAF physically can't roll into Kiev. Two, the war has been a demonstration of the older anti-aircraft weaponry and the importance of supply lines.

Both Iraq wars were examples of what happens without opposition. The Persian Gulf War involved a fought out Iraq, a six month air campaign, and the cold war militaries being directed at a force reliant on external defense manufacturers.

The resources aren't there. This is the home stretch for the NAF. Fall and winter are approaching, and Obama and his gang despite constant propaganda have largely been ignored by their various electorate. The NAF doesn't want to occupy anything. It's costly, and Moscow can close the border to the Ukraine rump. The EU handed out passes like candy. A myth of abandonment by NATO is taking hold, so why should Russia clean up NATO's mess? Tanks won't be rolling into a capital anytime soon.

Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Aug 28, 2014 11:41:10 AM | 26

Putin better jump on these bastards and shut them down quick. They're carrying Western & Kiev water.

Russian media report 'invasion of Ukraine'

Reports that Russian troops are intervening directly in the fighting in south-east Ukraine have started to appear in Russian media, despite repeated denials from the Kremlin.

Newspapers and websites are quoting mainly Ukrainian and Western media reports about a Russian invasion, but some have also started to ask whether Moscow is now "fighting a war".

Many Russian social media users, however, say they have no doubt that Ukraine has been "attacked".

They echo sentiments in the Ukrainian twitter-sphere where #russiainvadesukraine, #StopPutin, and #UkraineUnderAttack have become the top trending hashtags.

More at link

There are better, more loyal Russians at this space than these Russians referred to in the article — and some of you, maybe even many of you, aren't ethnic Russians. Weird, that.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Aug 28, 2014 11:43:39 AM | 27

Excellent post, b. I read the NYT every day on the train into work, and for more than a month there has been a growing disconnect between what is actually happening on the ground in the Donbass and what is being reported in the paper.

After the downing of MH17 and the junta encirclement offensive, NYT pulled Sabrina Tavernise out. She had evolved from parroting an anti-Russian perspective to being pretty much completely critical of the junta shelling of Donetsk and Luhansk.

She was replaced by Andrew Kramer, who I believe, like Michael Gordon, is identical to a USG intelligence operative. For several weeks Kramer has been painting word pictures of the certain collapse of the LPR/DPR. It is going to happen any day, Kramer assures us. The problem for the NYT is that day never arrives.

Anyway, it is very bizarre. You read Colonel Cassad and he tallies up all the victories of self-defense forces. Then you turn to the "newspaper of record" and read about the punishing juggernaut of the Ukrainian Army bound for glory. It is a world turned upside down.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Aug 28, 2014 11:52:49 AM | 28

from al-manar:
Moscow’s OSCE Rep Rebuffs Kiev Claims on Russian Troops in Ukraine

The OSCE was told there was no Russian presence spotted across the Ukraine border, refuting Thursday's claims that a full-scale invasion was underway. Both the Ukrainian monitoring team head and Russia's representative have given a firm 'no.'

The chorus of allegations about Russia's military invasion of Ukraine had President Poroshenko calling for an emergency meeting of the country’s security and defense council, while Prime Minister Yatsenyuk on Thursday called for a Russian asset freeze.

No actual evidence has been given either by either foreign governments or the media, apart from claims that photographs exist that someone had "seen."

"I have made a decision to cancel my working visit to the Republic of Turkey due to sharp aggravation of the situation in Donetsk region, particularly in Amvrosiivka and Starobeshevo, as Russian troops were brought into Ukraine," Petro Poroshenko said in a statement on his website.

The Russian representative to the OSCE Andrey Kelin, meanwhile, has given a firm response to the allegations, saying that “we have said that no Russian involvement has been spotted, there are no soldiers or equipment present.”

“Accusations relating to convoys of armored personnel carriers have been heard during the past week and the week before that,” he said. “All of them were proven false back then, and are being proven false again now.”

Poroshenko, in the meantime, is going to call for a meeting of the UN Security Council. "The world must provide assessment of sharp aggravation of the situation in Ukraine," he added.

The Ukrainian president added that on Thursday there will be a meeting of the Security and Defense Council of Ukraine to elaborate the plan for further action.
Meanwhile, the OSCE has announced that it’s calling an emergency meeting in Vienna – for the second time in August.

When the head of its Ukraine mission, Paul Picard, was asked if the monitoring team saw any evidence of Russia crossing the border with troops and tanks, the answer was “no.” He told journalists of round-the-clock surveillance by a team of 16 people. The team said “we are hearing shooting, but it’s difficult to tell just how far.”

This didn’t stop the Ukrainian government from alleging that the border town of Novoazovsk in the south-east has fallen under Russian control – a mix of troops and members of the eastern-Ukrainian uprising.

Russia Today



Posted by: okie farmer | Aug 28, 2014 12:15:41 PM | 29

There's now satellite imagery published by NATO.

Posted by: misty6 | Aug 28, 2014 12:20:03 PM | 30

Reuters - (This story has been refiled to correct to show statement on presidential website refers to Russian troops having been "brought into Ukraine", not an "invasion")

Posted by: TikTok | Aug 28, 2014 12:20:21 PM | 31

CNN has red - !!!BREAKING!!! -- TOP headline big font -- U.S. official: Russian troops in Ukraine
but the NYT and NBC are still reporting business as usual ... Story is NOT even at the top of FOX news ...
Fascinating ... let's see how low CNN has fallen in desperation and in having the clout to "create the news" ...

So, CNN joins HUFFPO ... how fitting. (I don't know when CNN put up the red banner... I was lazily trying to find out if Joan Rivers had actually died or not)

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Aug 28, 2014 12:24:01 PM | 32

I think Poroshenko's allegation of a "Russian invasion" is because he realizes he's losing his 'civil war'. Plus, he realizes he will never have the military capability to defeat the eastern freedom fighters.

He's called for an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council to try to get some help from ANYONE, but I don't think anyone will come to his aid. I rather agree with Bremmer in that first article I posted, whether "Russia invaded", or not, Poroshenko is "cornered", and going to lose.

Posted by: okie farmer | Aug 28, 2014 12:30:15 PM | 33

Posted by: okie farmer | Aug 28, 2014 12:30:15 PM | 33M

See #30 above.

What's your definition of an invasion?

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Aug 28, 2014 12:37:56 PM | 34

okie farmer

"I think Poroshenko's allegation of a "Russian invasion" is because he realizes he's losing his 'civil war'."

Bingo! This is just another we-bombed-100-russian-vehicles-lie he used the other week. Germany used jews, PORNOshenko use the "Russians" in his propaganda game.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 28, 2014 12:40:36 PM | 35

@ Posted by: Noirette | Aug 28, 2014 11:33:42 AM | 24
Yes, "we" have created quite a precedent -- if the "humanitarian crisis" is big enough, usually we can be nudged into R2P ... ooops, wrong "humanitarian crisis" -- not working in the Ukraine, with the USA or NATO ...
Kiev's been declaring the start of WWIII for more than 6 months now - their lack of credibility appears well matched by their inability to gain traction (gee, related, y'think?)

They're so obviously escalating, trying to find the right 'BUTTON' to push ... as with Libya and Syria, Kiev has proven that even after all-our-help, they are unable to govern effectively ... good money after bad ... or?

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Aug 28, 2014 12:41:28 PM | 36

I looked @30
Nothing but allegations. Can you indentify those trucks and self-propelled artillary pieces? You can't, and the reason there's no higher resolution is because the allegation of invasion would prove to be a fraud.

Posted by: okie farmer | Aug 28, 2014 12:43:45 PM | 37

Posted by: okie farmer | Aug 28, 2014 12:43:45 PM | 37

Wow. In that case, I don't think any proof whatsoever, even if Putin himself acknowledged he invaded, would convince you otherwise.

Just as I suspected and why I posed my question early on.

Your response is telling. It's exactly how you and many others would respond should satellite evidence be presented to you about Flight 17. In that case, I can understand them not bothering to furnish it as proof. It wouldn't make a difference to those who already have their minds made up and therefore require no further proof.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Aug 28, 2014 1:05:32 PM | 38

Probably this is the reason -

Oliver Carroll @olliecarroll · Yatsenyuk: we can fight terrorists, but we have no chance against Russian army…

Poroshenko has to tell Ukrainians why to stop the fighting after so many deaths without any gain.

I don't see how the coup government can survive.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 28, 2014 1:06:09 PM | 39

Yes, this is a (or another) "put your money where your mouth is" moment/challenge -- and -- forgive me but there may well be "credible evidence" -- I take the apparent reluctance of the media as an indication that Washington/Obama and possibly even McCain and company are not eager to take the bait ... no matter how juicy and provocative ... but tomorrow's another day. I fully expected to wake up this morning (after checking headlines before bed around midnight) to HYSTERIA ... it's just not happening (so far) ... Is CNN McCain's BFF network?

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Aug 28, 2014 1:12:22 PM | 40

@37 okie farmer

I agree. Why now does nato produce sattelite imagery? Kiev/nato/msm have been crying wolf about russian incursions and or invasions for so long that this is more than likely a big fat intel fraud.

Posted by: really | Aug 28, 2014 1:12:58 PM | 41

Is larger NATO attempting to nudge the US to break the deadlock before winter or have the U.S. representatives within NATO gone rogue?

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Aug 28, 2014 1:18:41 PM | 42

I take the apparent reluctance of the media as an indication that Washington/Obama and possibly even McCain and company are not eager to take the bait

I take it as avoidance on the part of Washington/Obama. It's been asserted here, like is the case in Russia, Washington wields a great amount of influence with the media, so it could be using that influence to underplay this story so as not to have to deal with it. If the story is true, and it appears it is with the satellite imagery, it's a real in-your-face for Washington/Obama. It's embarrassing. Putin's taunting them and they're doing nothing but talking tough.

It's truly a Chamberlain moment, but even Chamberlain came to his senses — too late, of course.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Aug 28, 2014 1:24:06 PM | 43

excellent commentary b. thanks.. ditto mikes comment @28 as well, especially his last sentence...

b quote "Warmongers. All of them."

it gets tiring reading what the msm says..lies and more lies..

as for russia invading, it certainly wouldn't surprise me... why is it okay for nato/usa/cia/mercenary groups under kolomoisky and etc to be doing what they are doing in ukraine? i realize we won't be reading about this in the nyt.. they won't tell us the warmongers are the real "terrorists" either, but that is a fact and proper use of the term 'terrorist'..

these folks aren't fighting terrorism.. they are terrorists making terror in faraway places with a green light from a lying msm..

Posted by: james | Aug 28, 2014 1:24:09 PM | 44

i only meant to bold the quote from b... oh well.. don't know why it did that.

Posted by: james | Aug 28, 2014 1:25:05 PM | 45

show us the us satellite imagery on mh17 and i will be interested... sharing some info and leaving out other info is the trick of a liar..

Posted by: james | Aug 28, 2014 1:26:39 PM | 46

Ay Dios mio, poor Cold A-hole is all torn up because his side is losing. GOOD, cry you pendejo, I'm so sick of the NATO going in and wrecking havoc as they have done. The organization is a wicked conglomerate of cowards that will attack weak small countries, but when faced with the big bad "russian bear" as CA has titled it they shrink away quietly or loudly making outrageous claims.
Look at poor Libya, Gaddafi murdered and the people suffering because of Sarkozy (God strike that man down) and BHL.
Putin is playing you like fiddles and you know you like it when he plucks you with his fingers.
Especially you Coldie.
Me asusta pero me gusta.

Posted by: Fernando | Aug 28, 2014 1:30:31 PM | 47

@ It's truly a Chamberlain moment, but even Chamberlain came to his senses — too late, of course.

Except I think it's possible that it's Nuland and company trying to strong arm Obama into acting ... Obama's been very weak at reining in (or trying to rein in) Rice, Nuland and Powers in the past (face saving for him as much as for them) ... I have suspected they have made promises that they "need" Obama to keep

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Aug 28, 2014 1:34:13 PM | 48

@all - Cold N. Holefield's comments are tolerated here for my personal amusement over his naivité.

He is also a troll. So please stop feeding him.

Posted by: b | Aug 28, 2014 1:38:39 PM | 49

All of the satelite imagery @30 was from Digital Globe.Why? NATO cerrtainly has high resolution imagery that could have identified the very PEOPLE driving the vehicles, much less the vehicles themselves. Why didn't they show that? We know why...

Posted by: okie farmer | Aug 28, 2014 1:40:18 PM | 50

Fernando, it scares me too, but I certainly don't like it. Assuming you're talking about the geo-politcal mess the US has created, rather than some commenter.

Posted by: okie farmer | Aug 28, 2014 1:48:14 PM | 51

On a discussion this morning with the head of the editorial team for the NYTimes on WNYC, NYC's public radio station, the point was made that for some reason most of the guest and in house op ed writers are from the War Party, the conservative side of things which luvs it some war.

Very interesting. The good old Paper of Record -- for the Powers That Be, that is.

Not that I read the NYTimes any more, but it does get read by a lot of people....

Posted by: jawbone | Aug 28, 2014 1:57:41 PM | 52

"Poroshenko cancels visit to Turkey, calls urgent Security and Defense Council meeting due to use of Russian troops in Ukraine"

and the announcement today.

"Security & Defense Council decides to bring back military conscription from autumn 2014"

good work poroshenko.. you're serving your american/nato masters very well their..

Posted by: james | Aug 28, 2014 2:08:41 PM | 53

yeah, but consider the message to NATO and/or Obama if he didn't do just that (oh, and so much more "willingness to shoulder the burdens and make sacrifices") ... they're hip to his tricks and there's a lot of other folks waving their arms and demanding "Save me!" "No, save me!!!!"

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Aug 28, 2014 2:12:31 PM | 54

The "russian invasion" is simply the fact that the tide for the rebels is turned in the favour of the "rebels".

Posted by: Willy2 | Aug 28, 2014 2:15:28 PM | 55

security council meeting LIVE here:
http://rt.com/on-air/unsc-ukraine-crisis-russia/

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 28, 2014 2:15:53 PM | 56

Some people are sleepwalking into WW3 - Atlantic Council

US and Europe have a Feasible Military Option for Defending Ukraine It is irresponsible to not examine how the West can use a limited amount of force to prevent Russia from conquering more of Ukraine. No matter how reluctant transatlantic leaders are to consider military options, the simple truth is that the West can defend Ukraine from further Russian invasion and do so without a prolonged conflict. . . . The most feasible military option to help defend Ukraine would be a combination of Western air power, special forces, intelligence, remotely powered aircraft (aka drones) and cyberpower. This limited military option requires few boots on the ground and is comparable to the options used to initially defeat larger enemy forces in Afghanistan and Libya. This will not be a NATO mission, because it is improbable that all 28 members of the alliance would authorize this option. Nevertheless, a transatlantic coalition led by the U.S., Britain, France, Poland and Romania could host and deploy a more than adequate force multiplier to help the Ukrainian military defeat and repel Russian troops from their territory.

Brilliant idea. Just assume, that Russia will fight, too.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 28, 2014 2:20:05 PM | 57

The NATO evidence is a joke. All they did was show pictures of military vehicles in the Ukraine and then assert that they had to be Russian, because the po' widdle Novorossians are too stupid and simple to understand how to operate heavy machinery or understand military tactics. The fact that the Novorossians are kicking the Ukrainian army's ass gives the lie to that story.

Posted by: shargash | Aug 28, 2014 2:21:31 PM | 58

Above link is also interesting for its insistense that Europe should pay up for NATO.

"They expect full [NATO] membership when it comes to their defense; then that means that they've also got to make a contribution that is commensurate with full membership" President Barack Obama

Posted by: somebody | Aug 28, 2014 2:29:42 PM | 59

ukraine just wanted nato to meet tommorow to speak about the "evoooll russians invading", funny since ukraine is not having a membership in nato.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 28, 2014 2:29:59 PM | 60

1) These lies are too ridiculous; what are the odds that this time Obommer will actually deploy his famous "airstrikes", tearing into bloody shreds of flesh the unfortunate separatists in Ukraine. Obama will insist they are Russian and Russia will deny. Thing is, after one of these Yankee hell weapons does its work, it is barely possibly to tell the result is human, much less of any specific race, color, creed or gender.

2) I wonder, assuming 1) happens and also assuming Merkel is too smart to be actively involved - what can Obama do? I would predict he would use his influence over the banks, and his Panaptikon to find covert ways of harming and thwarting legitimate German interests; even venting his spite on individual politicians - all with plausible deniability of course. What else is it for?

Posted by: rackstraw | Aug 28, 2014 2:36:26 PM | 61

I got into that live feed @56 in time to hear Power saying "Russia is trying to destablize the Existing World Order". She said it several times. She can only mean US hegimony over the whole world.

Chukin is speaking now. Making a great speech about US duplicity.

Posted by: okie farmer | Aug 28, 2014 3:07:05 PM | 62

b @ 49
.. are tolerated here for my personal amusement ...

b, my only criticism is that you don't comment more often, I rate the comments here as valuable as your articles, always something to learn.

peace

Posted by: david | Aug 28, 2014 3:08:14 PM | 63

okie farmer

Personally I cant watch that, cant stand the lies and and well racism by the US/west (we are the best, we own the world (order) type of bs!)

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 28, 2014 3:08:45 PM | 64

Russia has nothing to gain by invading Ukraine nor taking over it. Yet again, the New York Times and its readers fail to use simple logic and understanding to validate this accusation. From what I understand, If Russia were to invade there would be no such thing as a "Ukranian" military anymore. They would be wiped out. Typical anti Russian propaganda that is spread like a virus here in the states

Posted by: johnh | Aug 28, 2014 3:12:09 PM | 65

Don't blame you Anonymous. When Power or any US politician open their mouth - they're lying.

Posted by: okie farmer | Aug 28, 2014 3:12:13 PM | 66

@62 ""hear Power saying "Russia is trying to destablize the Existing World Order". ""

She really truly is Strangelovean, ain't she .... I doubt I'll live long enough to see her in the dock in the Hague... she's a Kissinger real-politik monster.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Aug 28, 2014 3:24:13 PM | 67

oooh dang - Russian speaker at the emergency UN meeting calling out Ukr. gov for not releasing MH17 data.

Posted by: L Bean | Aug 28, 2014 3:27:34 PM | 68

she's a Kissinger real-politik monster.

Yep.

Posted by: okie farmer | Aug 28, 2014 3:29:02 PM | 69

Posted by: L Bean | Aug 28, 2014 3:27:34 PM | 68

He also called out the "Poroshenko peace plan" for inflaming the situation by asking for the capitulation of the rebels.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 28, 2014 3:34:07 PM | 70


@48

' it's Nuland and company trying to strong arm Obama '

Obama does what he's told to do ... he's just keeping his 'eyes on the prize', the revolution of the revolving door on 21 January 2017. He cares not a whit who or how many are killed or about the world-wide chaos 'he' is sowing. He views all that as the responsibility of the people 'above his paygrade' who are telling what to do (what they've done) and who are going to 'keep their end of the bargain' and make his own, personal Christmas come true starting 21 January 2017.

@57

' initially defeat larger enemy forces in Afghanistan and Libya ' ... and then?

a neocon with a sense of humor, kicking his readers in the ass for being stupid enough to read him.

Posted by: john francis lee | Aug 28, 2014 3:34:28 PM | 71

O/T A couple months back, before I gave up Cable TV, I saw Zbigniew Brzezinsk on Zacharias' GPS ... who relayed that Obama had never one consulted Kissinger, as I recall he had never been in the Obama White House ... which might seem laudible (but was probably just more window-dressing/optics) until I remember the report that the outgoing Bush had warned Obama not to get too close to Karzai because he was too likeable, too charming ... and that in response Barak and Michelle had shunned any non-formal meetings with the man ...

(I've never been able to find the article I read -- It was front page, likely NYT -- but my respect for Obama fell on his avoidance a "too charming" man -- although I wondered if he intended to avoid the guilt some felt over Diem -- cough speaking of Kissinger -- Fascinating reading this 2009 guardian article on Karzai before we started to hate him http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/mar/23/hamid-karzai-afghanistan)

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Aug 28, 2014 3:47:55 PM | 72

From RT"
'Kiev, rise up!' Protesters demand ouster of Ukrainian president, defense minister

Ukraine Hundreds of people have gathered in front of the Ukrainian Defense Ministry in Kiev, demanding resignation of President Petro Poroshenko and the defense minister over the poor handling of the military operation in the southeast.

The demonstrators, many of whom were mothers and wives of the soldiers involved in the fighting in the Donetsk and Lugansk Regions, have blocked traffic at one of the capital’s arterial roads, the Vozdukhoflotsky Boulevard.

They called on the army to urgently send reinforcements, including tanks and other heavy military vehicles, to the city of Ilovaysk in the Donetsk Region.

This strategic town was retaken by the self-defense forces after several days of fighting on Wednesday, which led to the encirclement of a large group of Kiev’s troops.

The protesters also insisted on the resignation of defense minister Valery Geletey and all other top commanders of Kiev’s so-called “anti-terrorist operation” in southeast Ukraine.


Reading through the article, looking at the pictures, it appears to be a right sector demo.
http://rt.com/news/183396-kiev-poroshenko-military-protest/

Posted by: okie farmer | Aug 28, 2014 3:48:50 PM | 73

I actually think that if the plan for Ukraine is to completely re-align herself with Nato the best option for Russia is to cut Ukraine access off of the Black sea. This can be achieved either by soft means - just for not being un-pleasant to the Western "partners" - by creating a loose Ukrainian confederation with the buffer states located on East and South leaning towards Russia; or via hard tools by inciting irredentism on those regions. Russia is just displaying her capacity to achieve both. Her message to Nato is simple: "either my way or the highway". Thus the current disarray in the Western camp.

Posted by: ATH | Aug 28, 2014 3:55:52 PM | 74

I read over at Col. Cassad That Poroshenko has now publically acknowledged that their is " no Russian invasion" . I assumed that was a concession that came from the Minsk talks. This makes the NYT look even more monolithically dishonest.

Posted by: Marc | Aug 28, 2014 3:58:38 PM | 75

More to the clownish side of this propaganda, Public Radio International's The World is a daily news program listened to by hip Obama supporters driving home from work in their Prius hybrids. This is from Wednesday's broadcast -

Radio and phone intercepts provide insight into the conflict in Ukraine

Reporter Carol Hills interviews Olexei Solohubenko from the BBC World Service on how they are using radio and phone intercepts (provided by the Ukrainian secret services) to help sort through competing claims and "piece together the true story". Here's some of what we learn -

(RADIO INTERCEPT OF WOMAN SPEAKING RUSSIAN)

CARROL HILLS: Okay Olexei, what did she say?

OLEXEI SOLOHUBENKO: She says, actually, you hit peaceful civilians, three houses, and in one of them there was small children. And she's a female spotter, it appears. She's a spotter who was giving instructions to an artillery unit of the rebels. But they missed the target.

HILLS: And let's listen to the man who responds to her.

(RADIO INTERCEPT OF MAN SPEAKING RUSSIAN)

SOLOHUBENKO: What he says, in a slightly inebriated voice I think, he says that in this circumstance the only thing you can do is what I have done: I've poured myself a glass of vodka and downed it. And that's the only way of doing it. And then he continues, saying don't worry, what happened, happened. These things happen, this is a war, and we'll blame it on the Ukrainian army anyway so nobody would know. That's the kind of dialogs you get through these intercepts sometimes. Operational detail which builds up a bigger picture.

HILLS: And how do you verify them?

SOLOHUBENKO: We don't take it for granted. The intercepts are now coming mostly through the Ukrainian security service. So we listen to the accent, and ask native speakers to check, we try to marry the recording with the location, with the date, what is happening on the ground. And if we are certain that this is something that sounds authentic we put it as part of the story. We don't base our stories just on these intercepts. But they are an important tool, and important incite, into what's going on, into the mindset of some of the people in eastern Ukraine, and some of their leaders.

HILLS: So you mention that they are from the Ukrainian security services. So how do you know they're not just selectively giving you just the intercepts they think will push their version of the story?

SOLOHUBENKO: Well, I'm sure they are selectively giving the intercepts which is why we are trying to verify them. But I think the selective release of information is very important because it is part of the picture.

HILLS: Now we're going to hear a final example. Let's listen....

(Jump back to the downing of MH17, to a rebel reporting to his rebel commander: Oops, civilians!)

This stuff can be entertaining, depending on your point of view. Elsewhere on the PRI website Carol Hills is described as "The World's Cartoon and Satire Editor" though that was never mentioned in this particular story. Unfortunately I don't think all that many people here in the US get the joke.

Posted by: Anon | Aug 28, 2014 3:58:41 PM | 76

Fascinating news. Is this the beginning of a solution or the start of WWIII with NATO troops parachuted in and part of a hot war with Russia?

PS. Please, please get rid of Cold. He's simply disrupting communication at this point. There was a liberal zionist clown at Mondoweiss.net by the name of Richard Witty who used to play the same kind of word games just to make it unpleasant to visit MW. Finally Phil Weiss got rid of RW and there was an immediate improvement in commentary. Extreme zionists are still allowed but they have to make coherent arguments and not repeat themselves and not spam comment threads.

CH does all three, all the time. Troll.

Posted by: Alec | Aug 28, 2014 4:10:55 PM | 77

Obama presser.

Obama says Russia supports, trained, armed, funds separatists. Not a homegrown uprising. Says photos prove Russia forces are in Ukraine---note he doesnt claim it.

Posted by: ess emm | Aug 28, 2014 4:22:57 PM | 78

@49. You have weird sense of humour, b. Still, I suppose keeping a tame troll-idiot for your amusement is no worse than kings of former times keeping pet dwarves. I already do filter all the fool's posts out anyway, by checking who's writing before reading any comment. Bit cumbersome for your readers, though, just so that you can have a giggle at the fool. Besides: "Touch pitch and be defiled..." You sure you can keep your mind untouched by the toxins?

Posted by: Rhisiart Gwilym | Aug 28, 2014 4:24:31 PM | 79

Moron in the white house is talking live now, saying more sanctions is coming next week.
http://rt.com/usa/183516-obama-new-sanctions-russia-ukraine/

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 28, 2014 4:31:51 PM | 80

There is no doubt that Russia is supplying the Donbas militias and has been for months now. What also seems pretty clear is that Russian support for the militias has not undergone any major changes in the last few days. What has changed is that it now becoming clear that the Kiev forces have suffered a severe defeat in their offensives around Donetsk and Lughansk.

This means that the Poroshenko regime is facing the prospect of being seen as a failure. It also means that Obama's Ukraine policies are in danger of being perceived as failed. What we are seeing with this latest onslaught of anti-Russian propaganda is an effort to do two things. First to distract public attention away from the battlefield defeat of the Ukrainian army. Second, to the extent that this defeat becomes undeniable, have in place an excuse -- namely our policies were quite sound but the Russians cheated and ruined them. I should be too jaded by now to expect more, but the participation of the NY Times and the Guardian in blatant propaganda offensive is quite shocking. It really is a repeat of the glory days of Judith Miller and Michael Gordon.

Posted by: ToivoS | Aug 28, 2014 4:32:42 PM | 81

Obama: We need to give Sunnis in Iraq and Syria hope!

Obama to Sunni states: Stop giving funding to proxies like ISIS, they're beyond the pale.

Obama: Military action in Ukraine (i.e. WW3) will not be forthcoming.

Posted by: ess emm | Aug 28, 2014 4:35:52 PM | 82

Posted by: ToivoS | Aug 28, 2014 4:32:42 PM | 81

Agree. Add - the absolute silence on the character of the putsch. The way NATO tried to get its foot into Russia's door by installing a puppet government. Victoria Nuland insisting on Yatseniuk who is running a personal foundation partnered by NATO, the US German Marshall Fund, the National Endowment for Democracy and Chatham House.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 28, 2014 4:42:40 PM | 83

The political message I got from the press conference is that US won't escalate regarding Ukraine but the Baltic states are redline. Now if Russia is looking for a hard fight the to do action is moving troops around Estonia. But since there's still lot to be done in Ukraine the optimum would be to pocket the profit now and maybe lay down for sometimes.

Posted by: ATH | Aug 28, 2014 4:43:36 PM | 84

toivos

"There is no doubt that Russia is supplying the Donbas militias and has been for months now."

Proof for that absolute sentence?

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 28, 2014 4:44:09 PM | 85

'While the overwhelming majority of foreign fighters in Syria are Arabs, Britons make up one of the biggest groups of Western fighters. But Belgians, Danes and others have a higher rate per person (see left-hand chart above). France, which has tighter laws against extremism, has also seen more of its citizens go off to wage jihad.'
http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21614226-why-and-how-westerners-go-fight-syria-and-iraq-it-aint-half-hot-here-mum

Posted by: brian | Aug 28, 2014 4:45:32 PM | 86

@ToivoS #81:

Everything you say is right on the mark. Here is the latest NY Times story:

Ukraine Asserts Russian Invasion and Reinstitutes Draft

The junta reinstituted the draft when it began military operations against Novorossia. The mothers and wives of Ukrainian men drafted to fight in Donbass have been demonstrating for months. Does the Times think that these women are delusional about their men being drafted?

Clearly, the purpose of this report of Ukieland "reinstituting" conscription is for domestic US consumption, to make Americans think that Ukieland can take measures to keep from being defeated militarily.

And here's a choice quote from Samantha Power at the UNSC today, from the same article:

“Instead of listening, instead of heeding the demands of the international community and the rules of the international order, at every step, Russia has come before this Council to say everything except the truth,” said Samantha Power, the United States ambassador.

"The rules of the international order". Brilliant. As okie farmer noted at #62, the rules of the international order are submission to US dictatorship of the world. They don't even talk about international law anymore; that ship has sailed, with Kosovo and Iraq.

I detect the same panic in Washington and New York that is occurring in Kiev.

Posted by: Demian | Aug 28, 2014 4:51:05 PM | 87

Obama

We are not taking military action to solve the Ukrainian problem. What we are doing is to mobilize the international community to apply pressure... I think it is very important to recognize that a military solution to this problem is not going to be forthcoming.

So why are Ukrainians killing each other?

Posted by: somebody | Aug 28, 2014 4:51:15 PM | 88

misty6 @30

The NATO document headline is "New Satellite Imagery Exposes Russian Combat Troops Inside Ukraine"

i) the dates of the five images are 21 Aug, 23 Aug, 20 Aug, 23 Jul (x2) - hardly new imagery.

ii) image 3 is 50 km inside Russia, image 4 is 6.5 km inside Russia and image 5 is a wider shot of image 4 showing the border.

Two out of the five images are over a month old and three out of five show sites well inside Russia, so there is a nice bait and switch going on.

Posted by: Yonatan | Aug 28, 2014 4:58:33 PM | 89

@somebody #88:

why are Ukrainians killing each other?

Ukrainians aren't killing each other. Ukro-fascists are killing Novorossiyan civilians, and the Novorossiyan military is killing Ukro-fascists.

Posted by: Demian | Aug 28, 2014 5:00:23 PM | 90

I don't think the Russians have any imperial ambition - at least not in the sense of using its military to conquer territory. Ossetia, Crimea, Donbass - these have all been defensive moves in reaction to provocations created by political forces in the region supported by NATO and the US State Department.

NATO is corporate headquarters for the military-industrial complex, and right now they are selling a product called "the New Cold War".Rasmussen's line is that "the weather has changed", that the Russians are aggressors and have caught NATO by surprise. Poppycock - but he is not in his position to share objective conditions, but to sell new military bases, new troop deployments, and new weapons programs to fatten the bottom line of his Board of Directors. The NATO summit where all the deals will go down happens next week. Expect ever more hysterical claims to continue ahead of that time.

Posted by: jayc | Aug 28, 2014 5:08:59 PM | 91

@somebody:

Lavrov Does Not Rule Out Split of Ukraine

In other words, “Ukrainian territorial integrity”, as western politicians insist, like Angela Merkel, is not self-evident for Russian foreign secretary Sergei Lavrov.

So the Dutch can understand Russians, too. ;-)

Posted by: Demian | Aug 28, 2014 5:10:58 PM | 92

@88

Why are the Ukraians killing each other is a good question. But I feel that the Nuland "F the EU" plan for Ukraine is achieving its goal. The costs are being raised on the EU and the EU is being weakened economically. Someone at MOA mentioned something about a pipeline via Qatar to supply natural gas to Europe. The plan maybe to drag out the Ukraine conflict, to the detriment of the Ukrainian people of course, until the Russia-EU relationship is in tatters. The EU then would be more dependent on the west(washington dc).

The Ukrainian people in Kiev know now that NATO/US is likely not to come riding in to save the day. I think the people in western Ukraine have to ask themselves what do they want to do. They may have to rise up and toss the Nato/US installed government out on its arse and call their boys back from the east before their lands become a perpetual meat grinder of proxy conflict. This is all based on the validity of Obama's statement highlighted in your post. But as we all know things could change.

Posted by: really | Aug 28, 2014 5:24:10 PM | 93

@jayc #91 You don't think because you don't read Russian writers such as Kurginyan or Dugin. They speak about "great Russian Empire" and "return to USSR borders" as an obvious right of nowadays Russia, without bothering what these borders think about it. You haven't probably also read the Manifesto of Novorussia, which is classical national-socialist programme, very similiar to that of NSDAP. So, gentlemen, when speaking about threat of nationalism and fascism, you're absolutely right, but looking at completely wrong direction...

Posted by: misty6 | Aug 28, 2014 5:33:01 PM | 94

ZeroHedge: The Nail In The Petrodollar Coffin: Gazprom Begins Accepting Payment For Oil In Ruble, Yuan

According to Russia's RIA Novosti, citing business daily Kommersant, Gazprom Neft has agreed to export 80,000 tons of oil from Novoportovskoye field in the Arctic; it will accept payment in rubles, and will also deliver oil via the Eastern Siberia-Pacific Ocean pipeline (ESPO), accepting payment in Chinese yuan for the transfers. Meaning Russia will export energy to either Europe or China, and receive payment in either Rubles or Yuan, in effect making the two currencies equivalent as far as the Eurasian axis is conerned, but most importantly, transact completely away from the US dollar thus, finally putin'(sic) in action the move for a Petrodollar-free world.

From RiaNovosti (link at ZeroHedge):

As a protective measure, Russia decided to avoid making its payments in US dollars, which can be tracked and controlled by the United States government, Kommersant reported.

ZeroHedge concludes:

In conclusion we will merely say what we have said previously, and it touches on what will be the most remarkable aspect of Obama's legacy, because while the hypocrite "progressive" president who even his own people have accused of being a "brown-faced Clinton" after selling out to Wall Street and totally wrecking US foreign policy abroad, is already the worst president in a century of US history according to public polls, the fitting epitaph will come when the president's policies put an end to dollar hegemony and end the reserve currency status of the dollar once and for all, thereby starting the rapid, and uncontrolled, collapse of the US empire.

My only reservation about those remarks is that Obama is just a figurehead. US policy is conducted by the US federal bureaucracy behemoth, which is fragmented. There is no one looking at the big picture (which the National Security Council is supposed to do). So Nuland and other neocons in the State Department stage a coup in Kiev, as part of the usual drive to undermine Russia militarily, without considering how Russia might respond economically.

Posted by: Demian | Aug 28, 2014 5:35:17 PM | 95

Posted by: Demian | Aug 28, 2014 5:10:58 PM | 92

There are a few practical economic issues.

But yes, Poroshenko obviously has found no agreement with Russia, or do you really think the rebels have a policy of their own?

Posted by: somebody | Aug 28, 2014 5:37:17 PM | 96

@85 If you define what kind of proof you are ready to accept it would save us a lot of time. Is declaration by DNR leaders sufficient?

Posted by: misty6 | Aug 28, 2014 5:39:03 PM | 97

@misty6 #94:

There is no such thing as Russian nationalism by definition (other than nuts like Vladimir Zhirinovsky), because, in the relevant respects, Russia is a multiethnic pluralistic civilization, not a nation.

I think that to most Anglophones, the idea of "English nationalism" sounds weird. So would the idea of Russian nationalism, if many Anglophones weren't Russophobes.

I assume you're Polish, btw.

Posted by: Demianmisty6 | Aug 28, 2014 5:44:26 PM | 98

Misty6

Seeing your earlier comments you can keep your so called evidence.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 28, 2014 5:45:28 PM | 99

@somebody #96:

The gist of that article is that it is the rump Ukraine, not Novorossiya, which will face severe economic issues. I have already said that the rump Ukraine needs to experience social collapse, to cure Ukrainians of their fascism and Russophobia.

(My name got messed up in my previous post.)

Posted by: Demian | Aug 28, 2014 5:53:22 PM | 100

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