Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 24, 2014

Ukraine: Major "Western" Think Tank Admits Defeat

There is simply no viable alternative for Ukraine than to cooperate with Russia and to pay the price that is necessary to do so. That is why Russia is just sitting back and waiting for that simple truth to become evident.

Back in February we said:

Putin will now sit back and let the "west" squabble about who will throw tons of money into the bottomless pit that Ukraine is going to become. ... Putin now just has to wait for the apple to fall from the tree.

In March:

To the growing unrest one can add the likely economic collapse that will come rather sooner than later. Any "western" help will be conditioned on austerity and impoverishing the people as well as on political reform that the oligarchs and the current politicians will not allow to happen. Under such condition further unrest is a given while Ukraine falls apart and there is no need at all for Russia to intervene to achieve such.

Russia will do nothing nefarious, it will do just nothing. Russia will not help, neither economically nor politically, unless Kiev and the "west" are willing to pay its price: A federalized Ukraine with strong regions and a weak central government.

Two month later this truth finally dawns to the mediocre thinkers in those "western" misnomed tanks. The Brookings Institute, which in general supports Obama policies, finally admits that a Ukraine without Russia is impossible and therefore cooperation with Russia on Ukraine is the Only viable way forward. It all comes back to money. The loss of access to Russian markets is already hitting and will kill Ukraine's heavy and weapon industry in east Ukraine. That will be expensive:

[A] minimum estimate is $276 billion to buy off the east. It is unthinkable that the West would pay this amount.
...
The key point here is that there can be no viable Ukraine without serious contributions from both Russia and the West. Of all the options for Ukraine’s future, a Ukraine exclusively in the West is the least feasible. A Ukraine fully under Russian control and with severed links to the West is, unfortunately, possible.

A Ukraine in the "west" is impossible. A Ukraine within the Russian Federation is possible but would somewhat hurt Russia at lest in the short term. A finlandized Unkraine, in which Russia has a major say is the best possible outcome for all sides.

The upcoming sham elections of the chocolate king Poroshenko over which Russia has major sway -his markets and some of his factories are in Russia- is now just a fig leaf for the "west" to disengage. Poroshenko will be send eastward to pledge allegiance to Russia and to sign the unconditional surrender treaty. He has to:

[H]ving normal relations with Russia is a natural position for Ukraine which fits her strategic interests. For this basic reason, Ukrainian politicians haven’t the slightest chance of ignoring their past, present, or future ties with Russia, regardless of the fact that they are talking about it.

He will then have to suppress the nazis in the west Ukraine. The political part of the EU Association Agreement, which the coup government signed, will be revoked and the economic part will not be signed at all.

All this now seems to turn into a major defeat for the neo-cons who completely misjudged the situation:

Strategists in the US may not have foreseen that, because of the very delicate domestic equilibrium of so many difference forces and actors, the Ukrainian state may have simply disintegrated in the face of a drastic geopolitical turn, as it is indeed happening.
...
The US finds itself once again in the awkward position of having decisively contributed to the insurgence of a certain critical phase [...] where however the partners and allies on the ground [...] are successively abandoned at the decisive moment ..

The neocons had planned this attack on Russia via Ukraine and Crimea and they, again, failed. That does not mean that the issue is over. In sight of defeat the neocons love to "surge" and to escalate the situation. But as seen in Iraq and Afghanistan such "surges" are unlikely to change the inevitable outcomes.

Posted by b on May 24, 2014 at 11:17 AM | Permalink

Comments
« previous page

@somebody #187:

Yes, indeed. Poroshenko said during his presidential campaign that he will continue the civil war, and there is no reason to think he could stop it even if he wanted to.

I saw signs in eastern Ukraine saying "No Ukraine after the Union Building fire". The nationalists clearly crossed a line with that one. People who defeated fascists in a previous immensely bloody struggle have little willingness to forget all that and live in a country with a government which takes fascism and hatred of Russia to be the norm.

The election of Poroshenko doesn't change that one bit. His election just further delegitimizes the "revolution", since the revolution was supposed to clean up Ukraine, whereas now we see that all it did is replace one oligarch as head of state with another.

Posted by: Demian | May 25, 2014 11:38:03 PM | 201

Election fraud?

http://edge.liveleak.com/80281E/ll_a_s/2014/May/25/LiveLeak-dot-com-7c0_1401048702-ElectionfraudUkraine2_1401048716.jpg?d5e8cc8eccfb6039332f41f6249e92b06c91b4db65f5e99818bdd7974d43dcd306ad&ec_rate=230

poroshenko will restart the civilwar and in august sometime he will understand that he cannot win. Wanna bet?

Posted by: Anonymous | May 25, 2014 11:45:22 PM | 202

@Anonymous #202:

I believe that photo is from Kharkhov, in the southeast. Exit polls are consistent with Poroshenko winning, so I don't think one can speak of election fraud in the strict sense of the term.

However, the southeast basically just did not vote, and that's not just Donetsk and Lugansk. So yes, in places in the southeast like Kharkov, where polls were open but hardly anyone showed up, there was election fraud in the form of ballot stuffing, to make it look like the turnout was higher than it was. I doubt there was much exit polling going on in Kharkov, because there was no one to poll as they left the voting station.

Posted by: Demian | May 26, 2014 12:09:22 AM | 203

Demian

Ok you might be right. Have you seen any numbers on the turnout?

Fraud allegations is nowhere to be found, when crimea had elections, wow then the whole western media wrote about the alleged fraud etc. Now when their "man" won they are silent. Shameful!

Posted by: Anonymous | May 26, 2014 12:21:29 AM | 204

@Anonymous #204:

No, I haven't seen any numbers. I based my conclusions on this video of a voting station in Kharkov. I believe that's where the photo you linked to comes from. The old bags running the election told the woman filming that "national security" was threatened by her making a video of how the polling was taking place.

Posted by: Demian | May 26, 2014 12:44:51 AM | 205

Posted by: VietnamVet | May 25, 2014 11:29:31 PM | 199

Chechens never were Wahhabis (nor were Pakistanis nor Afghans), it is Saudi money combined with missionary work, the Saudis have to support to be left alone from their fanatics at home (and US political exploitation of religious differences) that is causing the problem.

This here is Ramzan Kadyrows state religion:

There can be little doubt that Chechen Republic head Ramzan Kadyrov sees himself -- and craves recognition -- not just as a secular political leader, but as the head of a national-religious community.

In that latter capacity, Kadyrov has sought in recent years to systematically impose, by force if necessary, his own eclectic vision of what constitutes "traditional Chechen Islam," along with the code of behavior, ethics, and dress he considers one of its key components.

But although some eminent Arab leaders treat him with respect, Kadyrov's relentless promulgation of a bizarre syncretic amalgam of Chechen Sufism and popular Islam; canonical Sunni Islam, as represented by the Shafii legal school; and, more recently, Christian practice has alienated many clerics and ordinary believers in Chechnya. Few dare risk incurring his wrath by openly expressing dissent, however.

And this here is an interesting take of Russia, the West and the Sunni Shiite trap from 2012

Moscow’s diplomatic offensive among Sunni states, in particular Saudi Arabia, from a few years ago, seemed to hold greater promise. To be sure, the monarchies are doomed and appear incapable of engineering a transition to either democracy or to an authoritarianism sufficiently soft to undercut Islamists during the first wave of regime transformation in the Muslim world. This will put Moscow, the West, and Israel in the crosshairs of some truly horrendous Islamist regimes. Therefore, the longer secular and monarchical regimes can hold off the Islamists, the better. This gives time and hope for a moderately revolutionary outcome.

Unfortunately, the myriad of cross-cutting interests and values that messily make each country’s foreign policy, complicates – if it does not ultimately confound – the formation and execution of a coordinated multilateral (West, Russia, and others) policy. One is needed to deal with such multifaceted and unpredictable political phenomena as societal and regime transformations, revolutions, religious extremism, and terrorism.

Moscow’s recent compromises on Syria and Iran, plus the high level of U.S.-Russian cooperation in the war against jihadism globally, offers some hope that all anti-jihadi forces will ultimately operate on the same side of the barricade.

Posted by: somebody | May 26, 2014 2:00:29 AM | 206

And this here is Jamestown Foundation - which I consider a CIA front developing a very unhealthy interest in the splitting power of Russian Neo-Nazis

Nationalists have not limited their attacks to just the major cities or migrants, however. On March 23, in Irkutsk, for example, around 30 youths attacked a teacher at an English-language school outside the “fashionable” mall in the center of the city (http://www.irk.ru/news/20140324/fight/). The timing of this violence against a symbol of the West in Russia coincides with rumors about Western sanctions being imposed on Russia and may indicate that extremist Russian nationalists are acting on the Kremlin’s anti-Western propaganda—what the journalist Vladimir Milov described as the “anti-Western mythology” of the Kremlin. According to Milov, the mythology, which is extremely harmful for Russia, is built on a number of outright falsehoods: first, that the West offended Russia following the Cold War, but that now revisionist Russia is a just regime; second, that the West sought the downfall of Yugoslavia in the 1990s and now seeks the same for Russia; third, that the enlargement of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) threatens Russia; fourth, that the West has attacked Iraq, then Libya, and will be coming for Russia next; and fifth, that the West has financed the “color revolutions” across the post-Soviet space through non-governmental organizations (http://www.echo.msk.ru/blog/milov/1286428-echo/). Milov’s analysis of the anti-Western mythology reveals a picture of the West that expresses Russia’s paranoia and certainly could rationalize even more violence of the kind seen in Irkutsk. Such violence comes after Russia has turned itself, in the words of journalist Masha Gessen, into the leader of the anti-Western world .

Already one of Russia’s strongest “social” movements, far-right nationalists may limit the government’s room for diplomatic maneuver around protecting ethnic Russians in other countries, if nationalistic propaganda succeeds in polarizing Russian public opinion further. Moreover, the tension between state and society augurs ill for the future as the extremism of one group or the other shifts the political “center” further to the right. Indeed, there are already signs that Cossack movements in Tatarstan view the naked defense of ethnic Russians as tacit consent to begin their own agitations in that republic (see EDM, April 3). If pushed too far, the indigenous minorities in Russia will react.

Just because you are paranoid does not mean they are not coming for you.

Posted by: somebody | May 26, 2014 2:27:17 AM | 207

Rowan Barley

nobody cares about your silly little grudge against the Saker. he put you in your place when you were whining about 'religious proselytizers' on his blog and you've been passive aggressive toward him ever since. he didn't pay you any mind until you started putting ridiculous words in his mouth and now you're hysterically accusing him of being a kremlin psyop. you remind me of another bitter old queen ranting about Mr Pragma being a kremlin computer program

Posted by: tamlin | May 26, 2014 2:52:32 AM | 208

Progressive Pragmatism
GANESH SITARAMAN
The Obama Administration represents the dawn of a new and superior conception of American foreign policy.

http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2014/04/20/progressive-pragmatism/

Didn't see that coming, did ya?

Posted by: Grim Deadman | May 26, 2014 3:01:30 AM | 209

Rowan @188. Let's try this:

1. That Kadyrov can make the Kiev junta accept bribes?" Your point being that that rascal Kadyrov forced the junta boys to accept a bride? You can't be serious.

2. Do you have a source for your allegation that the Vostok Brigade currently operating in Novorossiya is Chechnian? As far as I know, the brigade in question is native Russian-Ukrainian.

3. "The Chechens are not a Russian or even a Russian-speaking people at all, and hence quite unlike either the Ossetians or the inhabitants of the Donbass." And so?

4. "I know who Kadyrov is. He's a traitor to his people, and a tyrant to boot." The sins of the father … you have the current president of Chechnya, Ramzan Kadyrov, confused with his father, Akhmad Kadyrov. The elder Kadyrov was president during the first Chechen war in the 90's, and gave up his outlaw ways at the beginning of the second Chechen war in 2000 to work with the Russian government. Is that a traitorous act? I suppose it depends upon one's point of view. In any case, the scenario does not apply to young Ramzan Kadyrov, who was just 24 in the year 2000. In 2007 Ramzan became president, and it seems has proven to be a strong, capable, and loyal leader.

Posted by: Pegasus | May 26, 2014 3:10:29 AM | 210

Posted by: Grim Deadman | May 26, 2014 3:01:30 AM | 209

"Didn't see that coming, did ya?"

I didn't see the Mars take over of Venus, either...but, WTF, one cant see everything. ;)

Posted by: scalawag | May 26, 2014 3:31:02 AM | 211

Scalawag @190

You're a gem for pointing out the bigotry in VV's post @170. Here's another: "The Chechens are not a Russian or even a Russian-speaking people at all, and hence quite unlike either the Ossetians or the inhabitants of the Donbass". RB @188, do you mean to say that the Chechens are like, you know, scorpions?

Posted by: Pegasus | May 26, 2014 3:34:11 AM | 212

I thought that since I have already shown that Russian pop music has shown the universal appeal of Putin, I should also point out that when it comes to English pop music, White Russians are totally cool.

Posted by: Demian | May 26, 2014 3:41:38 AM | 213

Anna News statement on youtube censorship

As we all know the Youtube channel of the fantastic-little Abkhazian alternative news network was deleted from Youtube after they published a 34min long video were we can see/hear Junta's gunmen bombarding Slavyansk. Among the bombarded civilians there are western journos.

After the deletion ANNA reacted by creating an alternative Youtube channel for its content: tvnewsfront
This channel is now also censored/deleted ( see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz-GqIBiv-4 ) in what amount to be another shameful zioncon war against "non-aligned" journalism.

In the video that motivated Youtube's censorship (Fortunately posted here in LL
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=417_1400949353
so we have access to it),
around 29:25 we can hear a damn close artillery/mortar hit. Then people got hit. They just called an ambulance casevac for a woman (italian translater?) because of injuries (shock and a neck injury). A woman start screaming. A guy asks for a knife. Asks where she's bleeding from.

It is interesting that "the West" feels it cannot afford "free youtube press" anymore. They used to think it was their advantage against Russia and China.
Now Russians are successful in copying the "Al Jazeera Strategy" showing shelled civilian houses and bloodied corpses they suddenly can't.

Posted by: somebody | May 26, 2014 3:57:23 AM | 214

To put it another way, this is what Slavic people feel about what the West is trying to sell them.

Posted by: Demian | May 26, 2014 4:08:19 AM | 215

Corriere della Sera quotes an Ukrainian army captain confirming they shot at the car with the journalists - "shooting at any movement".

Posted by: somebody | May 26, 2014 4:10:52 AM | 216

This here is interesting - translation of observations from someone living in Sloviansk

The relation between the fighters [separatists] and the National Guard is strange, too. It’s like they are playing their own political game. If they [the National Guard] had wanted to storm [the separatists], they would have done it a long time ago. This isn’t how ‘anti-terrorist’ (as the separatists are being called) operations are carried out. You don’t drive tanks into crowds and shoot at people randomly. Terrorists are targeted at night, by Special Forces, picking them out of the civilian sector, right? You target those who are armed, ‘strategic objects,’ you use snipers, right? I think both sides are acting with the goal to destabilize the situation. Both sides.

For example, when you drive out of Slavyansk, towards Kramatorsk, there are several check points. There’s an effigy of [acting Prime Minister] Yatseniuk that’s been hanged, a blow-up sex toy that’s supposed to be Yulia Tymoshenko…so you drive out of Slavyansk and there’s a checkpoint of the “self-defense” forces (samooboroni), flying the flag of the Donetsk People’s Republic. And in just 200 meters (the total distance between Slavyansk and Kramatorsk is 7 or 8 kilometers), there’s a barricade of the National Guard, with tanks and infantry. But there are only 10 young guardsmen there. And in another 5 kilometers, as you enter Kramatorsk, there’s another post of the Donetsk People’s Republic. So the Guard just has 10 guys and 3 tanks. And all three [checkpoints] check you thoroughly, but politely…and the two sides (self-defense and National Guard) aren’t attacking one another along that highway.


It rhymes with everything else, including the PravySektor fights for Russia meme. There is a critical mass of some 20 to 30 percent wanting the split (add percentages of Timoshenko/Lyashko/PravySektor/Swoboda). They are the ones supplying the fighters, everybody else steps back and hopes for it to blow over.

Posted by: somebody | May 26, 2014 5:04:48 AM | 217

I'm too exhausted to argue with anybody. But I do have an enormous dossier on the phony 'Muslim leaders' that Dugin has lined up in his Eurasia movement. They are totally submissive to a ferocious right-wing Zionism which Dugin has selected to rule them. It is going to be an ugly spectacle, full of bogus 'Muslim leaders' saluting Putin's wisdom and farseeingness. You are welcome to it.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 26, 2014 5:06:48 AM | 218

somebody @206,

You consider Jamestown Foundation a CIA front @207, but you give a pass to the Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty website @206? WTF? You live in Germany, you have to know how that evil propaganda outfit has blighted the development of an independent Germany for three generations. Listening to that rot, it's no wonder Germans today are helpless, confused, and seemingly incapable of formulating a sense of national interest apart from Uncle Satan. Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty is the friendly face of Gladio.

The second site you link to @206, Russia: Other Points of View, provides helpful links to institutions such as the American Chamber of Commerce, Carnegie Endowment, and the Nixon Center. Now we're really deep in the belly of the beast. If your kids ask you, "Daddy, what was it like during the Cold War?", you'll have an answer right at your fingertips. Just go to either of these websites.

As for learning more about Chechnya, Islam and Russia — mmm, thanks, I'll go elsewhere.

Posted by: Pegasus | May 26, 2014 5:08:29 AM | 219

Posted by: Pegasus | May 26, 2014 5:08:29 AM | 219

I know these things. I assume people can think for themselves. The interesting thing about "Russia: Other Points of View" is the analysis of the schizoid self defeating policy - using religion as a tool and fighting it as a threat at the same time. Like nationalism.

The article also contains a not so subtle threat to Russia - work with us in the fight against terror including against Iran or we will stir up your Muslims. The threat was also all over the media featuring Crimean Tatars.

Kadyrov as a mediator in Ukraine is a hint in this context - "we can ally with Muslims". If you search for Kadyrov's image in Western media, he usually is described as a Muslim fundamentalist dictator supported by Moscow, the Radio Free Europe article, as a matter of fact, was the fairest I could find.

Posted by: somebody | May 26, 2014 5:40:59 AM | 220

#217 somebody: that's absorbing reading, but as one goes on, one notices more and more pro-Kiev propaganda points being made. If this guy is what he says he is, there is a simple way out: escape to somewhere west. That shouldn't be an impossibility. BTW, those bloody Chechens pop up in his story, too, along with copious assertions that Putin is arming the "separatist hooligans." There's no need to argue whether he is 'right' or not; it's all in the eye of the beholder. These are not trained objective observers, they are ordinary people, who see their surroundings through the optics of their own beliefs. So anyway, he should escape west, with his family if he has one, and try to forget about it.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 26, 2014 5:48:22 AM | 221

Ramzan Kadyrov's state religion:... "Kadyrov's relentless promulgation of a bizarre syncretic amalgam of Chechen Sufism and popular Islam, canonical Sunni Islam, as represented by the Shafi'i legal school, and more recently, Christian practice, has alienated many clerics and ordinary believers in Chechnya. Few dare risk incurring his wrath by openly expressing dissent, however." It doesn't surprise me to see Sufism in there. This is a bit like the Fethullah Gülen situation. I've been watching the CIA grooming these characters for what seems like aeons. I was even part of one of these pseudo-Sufi things for a while when I was young. 'Eclectic' is an understatement. A dead giveaway is the manic Stephen Schwartz. Schwartz is a Jewish Neocon Trotskyite Sufi. Yes, he is. To him it all makes sense. He doesn't realise how incredibly revealing his synthesis is, of everything the neocons normally dress up in smokescreen verbiage. It's all about control, never mind how. And the essential point will come when Usaia subsides into relative insignificance, the Eurasian synthesis is triumphant, and lo and behold, the same guys are still on top, but wearing different hats - Eurasian hats.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 26, 2014 6:01:26 AM | 222

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 26, 2014 5:48:22 AM | 221

It is always a wise decision for any civilian not to be where the fighting is, anywhere outside the fighting zone will do, across the border Russia, Crimea, where ever.

If no one stops this, and frankly, I cannot see anyone, we will see the spectacle of another house-to-house, cellar-to-cellar fight. I am beginning to wonder about the underground network of tunnels in Slaviansk.

Maybe the solution would be to shoot all politicians.

Posted by: somebody | May 26, 2014 6:23:24 AM | 223

I feel so sorry for them, but having said that, I will go on watching the very watchable Anna News. In all the Slavyansk videos I've seen, the TV mast is still standing, but that report says the children have knocked it down, blasting their toy guns at each other up there as they do. So there's no TV, whether Kiev TV or DPR TV or Anna TV or whatever. Well, I never watch TV anyway. This following item is sinister, I must say. Poroshenko said at a press briefing on Monday:

I support the continuation of [the 'ATO' in south-eastern Ukraine] but I demand a new format. It should be made more efficient and held within a shorter period of time. The operation cannot and will not last for two or three months. It should and will last for hours. The first priority of the new government will target higher combat capacities of the Ukrainian army and law enforcement agencies. Then we will see a very rapid improvement of the efficiency of the operation. We will able to see its efficiency shortly

Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_05_26/Poroshenko-wants-military-operation-in-southeastern-Ukraine-to-continue-in-new-format-2829/

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 26, 2014 6:40:38 AM | 224

RT report that the regime is once again attacking the east.

when will the chocolate guy take power after the election or has he already?

Posted by: Anonymous | May 26, 2014 7:13:26 AM | 225

An excellent piece in Conflicts Forum, the 'new Manhattan project'
“It is a new kind of war, like a creeping financial insurgency, intended to constrict our enemies’ financial lifeblood, unprecedented in its reach and effectiveness,” says Juan Zarate, the Treasury and White House official who helped spearhead policy after 9/11.

“The new geo-economic game may be more efficient and subtle than past geopolitical competitions, but it is no less ruthless and destructive,” he writes in his book Treasury’s War: the Unleashing of a New Era of Financial Warfare.

The stealth weapon is a ‘scarlet letter’, devised under Section 311 of the US Patriot Act. Once a bank is tainted in this way – accused of money-laundering or underwriting terrorist activities, a suitably loose offence – it becomes radioactive, caught in the “boa constrictor’s lethal embrace”, as Mr Zarate puts it.

“This can be a death sentence even if the lender has no operations in the US. European banks do not dare [to] defy US regulators — they sever all dealings with the victim. Mr Zarate [said] that the US can “go it alone” with sanctions if necessary. It therefore hardly matters whether or not the EU drags its feet over Ukraine … Washington has the power to dictate the pace for them”, notes Evans-Pritchard.
- See more at: http://www.conflictsforum.org/2014/conflicts-forums-weekly-comment-9-%e2%80%93-16-may-2014/#sthash.cljaqK3r.dpuf

Posted by: harry law | May 26, 2014 7:28:53 AM | 226

Posted by: harry law | May 26, 2014 7:28:53 AM | 226

they never learn

Citing a Kazakh proverb Xi said: “Someone who tries to blow out another’s oil lamp will set his beard on fire”.

This from Bloomberg

Bank of America Corp. found a side door into a loan for a Russian bank last month to avoid publicity as tensions escalated in the Ukraine, according to four people with knowledge of the matter.

When the financing for Credit Bank of Moscow was announced in a March 27 statement, Bank of America wasn’t among the 17 lenders listed. The U.S. lender pulled out of the group before the deal was completed and rejoined after the announcement when the borrower increased the loan under a so-called accordion feature, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the information is private.

BofA’s actions underscore the predicament facing international lenders as they weigh the political and financial risks of maintaining relationships with Russian clients. The business generated more than $563 million in fees for foreign investment banks last year, according to data compiled by research firm Freeman & Co.

“It’s a dilemma for U.S. banks and it does put them in a hard place,” said Brian Gendreau, a finance professor at the University of Florida in Gainesville who also works as a market strategist for Los Angeles-based Cetera Financial Group Inc., which has about $100 billion in assets under administration. “Whether policy makers like it or not, Russia is fairly well integrated into the financial system.”

...

Yes, they can do damage. Damage to Europe and Russia. What will they get?

Europeans, Russia and China will be forced to avoid the US in business deals. US companies will begin to evade their own government.

It is obvious, they cannot do damage to China. As China has the surplus funds, where will people turn for capital?

Posted by: somebody | May 26, 2014 8:25:52 AM | 227

"The upcoming sham elections of the chocolate king Poroshenko"

The author assumes that Pete is - or at least, will be - Moscow's man.

That doesn't explain all-around US, NATO and invidious mass media support for Pete.

Let the people eat IMF-pie! Ukraine in NATO! Continue the war against the Russian-speaking regions of the country.

That's what the West is banking on. And Pete will do the utmost to satisfy his CIA-IMF-NATO backers.

Arnold Lockshin, political exile from the US living in Moscow

Posted by: Arnold Lockshin | May 26, 2014 8:37:49 AM | 228

Arnold Lockshin

You are right, I am worried that this chocolate guy will take this war further than the current regime have done.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 26, 2014 8:49:10 AM | 229

General Tommy Franks once called the neocon Douglas Feith "The stupidest fucking man on the face of the earth" I think Toria Nuland must qualify as "the stupidest fucking woman on the face of the earth" oh, and Fuck the EU.

Posted by: harry law | May 26, 2014 9:59:38 AM | 230

somehow the military is not what it used to be

Poroshenko seems to have said the following:

Paul Sonne @PaulSonne · 5h
Poroshenko: We will move toward energy independence. "This is very important."
Poroshenko: The rebels in the east are losing the trust of the people of Donbas more and more every day #Ukraine
Poroshenko: It's clear Belarus should move towards democracy and we're prepared to help them in that direction
Poroshenko: My victory opens new possibilities not just for #Ukraine but also for Moldova, Georgia and Belarus


There goes reconciliation.

Posted by: somebody | May 26, 2014 10:20:54 AM | 231

Aha, here's the thing about Chechens fighting for the junta. I knew I hadn't just hallucinated it (like the Kiev lawsuit against Ahmetov, which must have originated with my misreading an item about the DPR efforts against him):

Saudi Relocating Takfiris from Syria to Ukraine

Fars News, May 4 2014

TEHRAN - An Arab security official told Fars News on Sunday: "A large number of terrorist Takfiri fighters in Syria, who bear Saudi and Chechnian nationalities and receive financial and military backup from the Saudi intelligence agency, have been transferred to tKiev on several planes to help the Ukrainian army in its fight against the pro-Russian population. The forces have been immediately dispatched to Kramatorsk in Eastern Ukraine, and are now fighting beside the Ukrainian army forces against the pro-Russians under the name of militias who support the government. Saudi wants revenge on Russia and pro-Russian people in Ukraine for Moscow's support for Assad."

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 26, 2014 10:28:16 AM | 232

somebody

As I thought poroshenko is a warmongering maniac. Now he want to "democratize" the region. What a moron.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 26, 2014 10:43:59 AM | 233

@ riwan, 232

the saudis seem to be losing it in more ways than one...

they were originally on the neocon hit list... "iraq the tactical pivot, saudi arabia the strategic pivot, egypt the prize..." from a powerpoint presentation to the pentagon while perle was the head of the defense advisory board in july 2002... so the saudis apparently saw the handwriting and knuckled under

their position as an oil producer is shaky... they just spent a few billion building islands and causeways in the persian gulf to build drill pads so they could get at heavy, vanadium-laced crude that requires special refineries... google: manifa project

.
but it all kinda makes sense --saudi support for regime change in syria-- if the saudis believe israel will eventrually get its war with iran... that would bottle up most of persian gulf oil production because iran would close hormuz... maybe 17 million barrels a day normallly go through hormuZ

the plan is to restore those old pipelines that used to run from the persian gulf to the med through syria, but you got to put a puppet government in syria before you build the pipelines

pipelines to the med make sense for a few reasons... you eliminate the hormuz chokepoint, you eliminate the bab el mandeb and suez chokepoints if you go through suez, and you eliminate a long wasteful tanker trip around africa if you're running big VLCCs that cant go through suez

...and those big tankers are burning close to a hundred tons of oil a day during that trip around africa

so pipelines to the med make sense, and they might be possible if the neocons were not insisting on regime change in syria, regime change that would probably require that the syrian government kick russia out of their naval base in syria

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 26, 2014 10:57:13 AM | 234

all that stuff in my post above makes more sense if you can see it on a map...


so here's a map

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img836/4894/ki9e.jpg

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 26, 2014 11:04:46 AM | 235

[Putin will] have time to read it when he's rotting away in the Hague in six years if he's not assassinated first

You can tell Russia has the upper hand when Corn Y. Horseshit starts to go off the rails.

Dipshit. If Putin ever gets to the Hauge, justice demands he sit in a dock made of the sun-bleached skulls and bones of George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Pearle, Rice (both of them), Netanyahu, Powers, Colin Powell, and a few hundreds of others who have done far worse than Putin has ever even tried.

As for his assassination - to paraphrase John Stockwell: There is no way that the United States or its puppets would dare assassinate a Russian leader, because the Russians would send guys right back here to do the same.

Posted by: guest77 | May 26, 2014 11:15:44 AM | 236

Pegasus | May 26, 2014 5:08:29 AM | 219
"Uncle Satan"

Hope that's catchy enough to become popular.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | May 26, 2014 11:18:14 AM | 237

Two great interviews with Douglas Valentine, the author of "The Phoenix Program".

Because Phoenix was the United States' defining moment of political warfare - using black ops, terror and murder against civilians whose only crime was to be a part of the political opposition - it has applications in Iraq, Ukraine, and even here at home in the United States.

Valentine expands on the United States' use of Phoenix as a method of political repression and, in these interviews, looks at it in terms of the drug war in Mexico, Iraq, Afghanistan, and other locations where the US intelligence is active.

Both are well worth a listen.

BoilingFrogs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EifXKq8GGCg
AntiWar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfvIxms4yLk

Posted by: guest77 | May 26, 2014 11:24:46 AM | 238

Oh sure... for "revenge against Moscow for supporting Assad". Not for paychecks in USD(and bath salts or whichever amphetamine is popular w trained killers these days). Suuuure.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 26, 2014 11:25:02 AM | 239

Haha did you guys read this?!


Mikheil Saakashvili might be part of the ukraine leadership

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/733270

Posted by: Anonymous | May 26, 2014 11:34:51 AM | 240

This from a Ukrainian site http://amihailenko.livejournal.com/

CyberBerkut strike! Apparently they disabled the vote collection network although:

The CEC representatives said they fully restored the system though hacktivists insist they still control the CEC network and the information transfer between central and district election commissions is blocked. According to the CyberBerkut website information (http://www.cyber-berkut.org/) it will be impossible to collect accurate data about voting turnout and preliminary results from all poll stations in the country until the ballots are delivered to Kiev and counted manually.

So all preliminary announcements and results are false.

CyberBerkut reports the CEC electronic system was designed by the US-based world-known SOE Software company (http://www.soesoftware.com/) that also provides its products to 34 US states’ election commissions.

Hackers are concerned that the Ukrainian election system has remained under control of the SOE Software administrators since its creation. The fact that SOE computer system was breached by a group of hackers casts shadow over the company’s reputation.

Posted by: William Bowles | May 26, 2014 11:41:31 AM | 241

I’m less optimistic than b.

Actually running that election was vicious provocation.

It spells, from the coupists - we control the “State” (such as it is) and we do as we like, you ppl are of no account and we will vanquish. I think, before the election there might have been a small chance of “pacification” and it is possible that time might have helped. But after the election, no.

Of course, officially or ostensibly the election was carried out to legitimize the Kiev-koupists with a democratic masquerade, as well as to provide a new interlocutor for Putin and the West, which is how most ppl seem to see it.

Poroshenko’s problem is not that he is Jewish but that he is the worst kind of criminal oligarch. Candy Tycoon, ha ha, according to the W press. In short, exactly what the ppl of the Ukraine do not want and have been fighting against.

Imho, any hopes of a ‘united’ or ‘unitary’ Ukraine are now slim. Remember, Yanukovitch tried to keep the status quo and it fell apart.....1 The ‘federalization’ proposal (Putin and others), with a weak central state plus high independence for “Regions” (the oblasts are too small imho) is moot.

Right now, there isn’t a legitimate Gvmt. but a void, which sucks in all kinds of actors. That will continue and degenerate, despite an ‘elected’ President, creating more fault lines. The difficulty as I see it is not so much language, culture, or politics (political parties in the Ukraine are mostly arrangements between oligarchs) but the idea of ‘finlandization’ or what the French call a ‘tampon’ (buffer) state.

How can that status quo ante be restored, after so much interference? How many of the different parties actually wish this? The Kievcoupist find themselves in the position of creating this state of affairs and refusing any proposition other than ‘a united Ukraine’, really this can only be deliberate, and Poroshenko appears on board with it, and has W support. (Moreover, not that anyone at all seems to care what Ukrainians want, my guess is they don’t like this idea.)

1. Just one illustrative detail from history. Yats, Yulia and Yushenko requested to join NATO in Jan 2008. The request was supported by Bush, Obama and McCain. Subsequently, because of internal opposition, the Ukr. parliament was blocked and non-acting from 25 Jan to Mar 4. At the NATO summit in April the request was turned down, the British and the French nixed it. wiki http://tinyurl.com/n4gpn52

Posted by: Noirette | May 26, 2014 12:09:08 PM | 242

Kremlin ready for Ukraine lawsuit over Crimea – head of administration
http://rt.com/news/line/2014-05-26/#62508

A court cant do anything at all.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 26, 2014 12:38:58 PM | 243

#8;Never having dined on them,I imagine the rich taste like sh*t and are less filling.

Posted by: dahoit | May 26, 2014 1:06:28 PM | 244

@240 Isaakashvili needs to be close the center of power and the decision making process in Kiev because his men were some of the snipers who murdered people on Maydan in Feb. NEO – Kiev Snipers: Mystery Solved


Information is still unfolding about the various funding source behind various events in Ukraine. However, we do know that there is a direct connection with what went on in Georgia in 2008.

It was reported several weeks ago in Interpress News that four of the snipers in Kiev were in fact Georgian nationals. The source for this story was Georgian General Tristan Tsitelashvili (Titelashvili), who later confirmed this in an interview with Rossiya TV.

Tsitelashvili claimed that at least four of the snipers shooting at people in Maidan Square were under the command of former Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili, who is doing his best to destabilize his own country, and others if necessary, to find a way back into power.


Posted by: ProPeace | May 26, 2014 1:28:14 PM | 245

@ LolWut 177.

so much off-topic here, anyway i am responding to one.

Agree. The whole concept of blowback is fake and pernicious.

As for the Boston Bombings, this was a scenario set up by the Security Apparatus (which ones exactly idk, in whatever cooperative schemes, but the media was heavily involved) and no doubt they have had endless meetings about ‘what worked’ and ‘what didn’t’ and what ‘conspiracists noticed’ and ‘what stooges had success’ etc.

While I may on occasion post different and contradictory things about 9/11 or the London and Madrid bombings in the past, in this case, I am certain of what went down, for what it’s worth, which is not much.

Also, you are right that the Tsarnev brothers are of no interest. I never even looked into how one was shot etc., they are just patsies in a script. I do not state this following reading ‘conspiracy sites’ not that they are bad but I wanted to make up my own mind.

From a wider perspective, these local ‘false flags’ provoke a blast (sic) of emotion when they occur but the emotion dies down rapidly, a flare that goes off and fizzles, is then ignored or paid feeble lip-service to. A fact of life, one moves on.

As if Docu-Fiction has infiltrated ordinary lives. Three months later nobody remembers or cares about Chechen terrorists (what? who?) in Boston, etc., though all the tinny, repetitive discourse on the media calls it up regularly, with little conviction imho.

Ppl become inured, are disbelieving, jaded, etc.

One angle that is not mentioned is that some of these false flags are huge money makers for the ‘citizen’, other ordinary participants / actors. They are needed for versimilitude.

They are paid off handsomely, start up foundations, get donations, etc. At least a million dollars per head. It has become like a great gig in the US - ordinary citizens get paid as much as as some movie stars! Just by “being themselves” and crying about a dead child (who isn’t dead...)

Posted by: Noirette | May 26, 2014 1:35:11 PM | 246

Flicker vertigo;What's wrong with facts?Some people don't like the facts.They tell others what to say.People who try to control others words are Nazis.They might think they are liberal,but they aint.
Go for it!
The Guardian has turned into NYTs East.Fuggetaboutit.Other than a few token sane columnists,their ranks are filled with illiberal idiots.They selectively filter comments that don't fit their ideological outlook,which is neoconliberal globalization Zionist garbage.
And their publisher is shhhh....(no pantie scrunching now)Jewish.

Posted by: dahoit | May 26, 2014 1:35:38 PM | 247

And this here is Jamestown Foundation - which I consider a CIA front developing a very unhealthy interest in the splitting power of Russian Neo-Nazis

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: One of the greatest internal threats to Russia, and one that the United States is very eager to help feed and to grow, is far-right, anti-immigrant feeling amongst the Russian people.

Should it ever come to pass that Russia officially accepts an ideology of ethnic and racial hatred (certainly a far off possibility at this point) Russia will lose all of her connections to the Muslim world - her key axis of geopolitical power.

And the USA is quite busy trying to support these forces, exhibit one being that pig Alexi Navalny.

Posted by: guest77 | May 26, 2014 7:38:15 PM | 248

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