Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 24, 2014

Ukraine: Major "Western" Think Tank Admits Defeat

There is simply no viable alternative for Ukraine than to cooperate with Russia and to pay the price that is necessary to do so. That is why Russia is just sitting back and waiting for that simple truth to become evident.

Back in February we said:

Putin will now sit back and let the "west" squabble about who will throw tons of money into the bottomless pit that Ukraine is going to become. ... Putin now just has to wait for the apple to fall from the tree.

In March:

To the growing unrest one can add the likely economic collapse that will come rather sooner than later. Any "western" help will be conditioned on austerity and impoverishing the people as well as on political reform that the oligarchs and the current politicians will not allow to happen. Under such condition further unrest is a given while Ukraine falls apart and there is no need at all for Russia to intervene to achieve such.

Russia will do nothing nefarious, it will do just nothing. Russia will not help, neither economically nor politically, unless Kiev and the "west" are willing to pay its price: A federalized Ukraine with strong regions and a weak central government.

Two month later this truth finally dawns to the mediocre thinkers in those "western" misnomed tanks. The Brookings Institute, which in general supports Obama policies, finally admits that a Ukraine without Russia is impossible and therefore cooperation with Russia on Ukraine is the Only viable way forward. It all comes back to money. The loss of access to Russian markets is already hitting and will kill Ukraine's heavy and weapon industry in east Ukraine. That will be expensive:

[A] minimum estimate is $276 billion to buy off the east. It is unthinkable that the West would pay this amount.
...
The key point here is that there can be no viable Ukraine without serious contributions from both Russia and the West. Of all the options for Ukraine’s future, a Ukraine exclusively in the West is the least feasible. A Ukraine fully under Russian control and with severed links to the West is, unfortunately, possible.

A Ukraine in the "west" is impossible. A Ukraine within the Russian Federation is possible but would somewhat hurt Russia at lest in the short term. A finlandized Unkraine, in which Russia has a major say is the best possible outcome for all sides.

The upcoming sham elections of the chocolate king Poroshenko over which Russia has major sway -his markets and some of his factories are in Russia- is now just a fig leaf for the "west" to disengage. Poroshenko will be send eastward to pledge allegiance to Russia and to sign the unconditional surrender treaty. He has to:

[H]ving normal relations with Russia is a natural position for Ukraine which fits her strategic interests. For this basic reason, Ukrainian politicians haven’t the slightest chance of ignoring their past, present, or future ties with Russia, regardless of the fact that they are talking about it.

He will then have to suppress the nazis in the west Ukraine. The political part of the EU Association Agreement, which the coup government signed, will be revoked and the economic part will not be signed at all.

All this now seems to turn into a major defeat for the neo-cons who completely misjudged the situation:

Strategists in the US may not have foreseen that, because of the very delicate domestic equilibrium of so many difference forces and actors, the Ukrainian state may have simply disintegrated in the face of a drastic geopolitical turn, as it is indeed happening.
...
The US finds itself once again in the awkward position of having decisively contributed to the insurgence of a certain critical phase [...] where however the partners and allies on the ground [...] are successively abandoned at the decisive moment ..

The neocons had planned this attack on Russia via Ukraine and Crimea and they, again, failed. That does not mean that the issue is over. In sight of defeat the neocons love to "surge" and to escalate the situation. But as seen in Iraq and Afghanistan such "surges" are unlikely to change the inevitable outcomes.

Posted by b on May 24, 2014 at 11:17 AM | Permalink

Comments
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Thanks, yes the neo-cons never go away they just hide out for awhile in some crazed think tank waiting for another opening. Cycle-0-Paths

Posted by: jo6pac | May 24, 2014 11:50:10 AM | 1

Putin holds all the cards.

That doesn't mean the provocations and false flags won't continue. They probably will. But Putin is definitely in the catbird seat.

b's post suggests that there is a significant split between ruling elites in the US. That split will probably appear in the newspapers, like the NYT, which will start publishing opposing points of view to the current policy. That'll be the first sign that the end is near, that the smarter elites are throwing in the towel. The old guard elites were probably skeptical about this wacky plan from the very beginning. After all, the neocons are unreliable cowboys with a dismal track record. This could really hurt them in the long term. It could be the end of the road for Nuland and Co.

My own impression is that the neocons, led by V Nuland, improvised much of what happened after Yanuchovytch agreed to the terms of the original deal. That's when she panicked and put the coup-plan into motion, snipers and all. It was all very messy and poorly planned. The woman's an incompetent moron.

Couldn't they see that Ukraine would fall apart??? Don't they think about stuff like that at the State Dept or do they just shoot first and ask questions later?

So then they figure the only way forward is to escalate, to draw Putin over the border so they can blame the mess on him and turn the country into a major battleground. But then something unexpected happens: Putin refuses to fall into their trap. The one thing they were all sure of was that Putin would react the same way he did when Georgia invaded South Ossetia. They figured he'd send in the tanks. But Putin out foxed them all and didn't take the bait.

I'm quite sure that everyone up the US chain of command and all their Harvard educated advisors, figured Putin would do what he did before. But he kept his cool and left them to wallow in the mess they'd created.

Just imagine what Ukraine's going to look like a year from now. People in Crimea will be living the good life under Putin's protection and the rest of Ukraine will be a broken, bankrupt, divided, failed state ruled by ex-central bankers, Nazis and American spooks.

And who do you think the people in the EU will blame for the catastrophe:
Putin or Obama?

I'll bet they blame Obama.

Posted by: plantman | May 24, 2014 12:03:23 PM | 2

As always, an excellent analysis of the situation. I agree with your conclusions.

The fact that you saw it months ago is the reason your blog is such a valuable resource.

Posted by: FB Ali | May 24, 2014 12:03:43 PM | 3

I don't think these brookings types are in any position to talk about "dinosaur" industries when Usaia itself is losing even its core military industries to outsourcing - the only thing that keeps e.g. Raytheon or Boeing plants going in Usaia is continuous sweetheart deals with who knows what kickbacks brokered by the State Senators and all in the end paid for by the nonsense money printed in trillions at the Treasury and paid for either by exporting inflation to the ROTW or by the Fed buying worthless T-Bonds and if possible concealing the fact that it's doing so. (Nowadays, you can't conceal much).

So - the merry-go-round stops, the T-bonds collapse in value, and the pentagon can no longer pay these "dinosaur" Boeing and Raytheon plants to operate at Usaian wage levels. And so Mr & Mrs Brookings and their children (now I believe actually subsidised by Haim Saban, the kingmaker or Adelson equivalent for the Dems) will have to go and find jobs in Beijing.

Anyway, I think that there was a nice equilibrium before, Russia gave Ukraine its gas, and Ukraine gave Russia its "dinosaur" military equipment, which although these fellows don't mention it, is superior on the battlefield to Usaian stuff. I don't think the econometrics in these articles atre worth taking seriously. If Usaia and her 'allies' are fifteen times the dollar size of Russia and her 'allies', for instance, that is entirely due to coerced subsidies from China and Japan, the big T-Bond holders. Say goodbye to those, mad Usaians, and see how big your economy is after that.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 24, 2014 12:05:17 PM | 4

One wonders where these so called 'analysts' from Brookings etc... get their information.
Debacle after debacle in their predictions: Libya, Egypt, Syria, and now Ukraine.
They should instead consult psychics as their PHD is leading them nowhere.

Posted by: Virgile | May 24, 2014 12:24:12 PM | 5

That assessment is valid, only if they want to keep Ukraine as a whole. If they have planed civil war and partition of Ukraine from the beginning, this is another case of Neocon success disguised as a failure.

If what they want is partition, time is not necessarily on Russia's side.

Posted by: PuppetMaster | May 24, 2014 12:30:47 PM | 6

Donetsk and Lugansk Republics unite in Novorossiya state
RT.com, May 24 2014

Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics have declared the creation of a union state of Novorossiya. “We have signed a memorandum on the union,” Denis Pushilin, co-chairman of the Donetsk People’s Republic, told the media. The document has been signed in the city of Donetsk by DPR PM Aleksandr Borodai and LPR head Aleksei Karyakin. People’s representatives from eight Ukrainian regions have gathered for a congress in Donetsk on Saturday, a day ahead of presidential elections. As a result of the congress, the south-eastern regions of Ukraine, where anti-government protests gained momentum, have announced creation of pro-federalization Popular Front socio-political coalition. The movement accepted a manifest vowing self-determination and protection of people from “Nazi gangs’ terror.” The coalition would involve Odessa, Nikolaev, Dnepropetrovsk, Zaporozhye, Kharkov, Kherson, Donetsk and Lugansk regions. At the congress, all 145 delegates accepted the manifesto, which stresses that the Popular Front will consist of “everybody, who is ready to resist self-appointed Kiev authority, which started war against people.” The coalition vowed to protect innocent civilians from “terror of Nazi gangs, financed by oligarchs and foreign security services.” It also pledges “a joint fight for people’s rights on decent life.” It says it has launched an investigative commission that will probe “crimes of Nazi-terrorists and their Kiev patrons.” The coalition is calling to boycott presidential election, which is scheduled to take place on Sunday, because “all major candidates” are “oligarchs, whom we have already saw at top positions, hence, robbery and terror would continue,” the draft of manifesto said. (etc, more)

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 24, 2014 12:40:51 PM | 7

Brilliant roundup, b.
And sincere thanks for all the work you've put in, winkling out the relevant facts and factors in Ukraine.
PS. The only 'surge' we'll see from the weak-as-piss and twice-as-yellow Yankees will be a lot of vacuous whining, finger-pointing and blaming ... in the pages of the NYT & WaPo.

The USA is dead. Time to eat the rich?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | May 24, 2014 12:44:26 PM | 8

I still go with the "flaming bag of shite theory" as at least one goal of this exercise. Ukraine will be a mess no matter what happens between now and November. I think that for short-term goals in US politics this will be a mess left at Obama's doorstep. He'll get the blame for it, the Republicans will benefit from the disgust of liberals, and Democrats will stay home rather than vote in November.

Long-term I believe this is another attempt at destabilizing Russia and the long-term goal of reacquiring the petroleum in Russia for western oil concerns.

Posted by: Bob In Portland | May 24, 2014 1:09:19 PM | 9

This is what happens when unstoppable stupidity meets immovable hubris.

Posted by: Colinjames | May 24, 2014 1:39:42 PM | 10

You were right, you were prescient. The most knowledgeable are not the ones with the fanciest degrees but the people who make the most accurate predictions.

Posted by: fairleft | May 24, 2014 1:44:54 PM | 11

As I read this I had Max Raabe's version of "All God's Children (Got Rythym)" playing in my head:

http://www.moskva.fm/artist/max_raabe_amp;_palast_orchester/song_1334958

It always comes to mind whenever faced with incomprehensible stupidity.

... and always cheers me up even though, sadly, obviously, all God's Children do not...

Beautiful analysis.

Posted by: Oddlots | May 24, 2014 1:52:18 PM | 12

I suspect the flap in Ukraine has more to do with Azerbaijan than Ukraine. Europe is facing huge catastrophe if it can't secure more energy for the future. The US oil giants (Yes, Cheney is involved) want to transport energy from the Caspian basin to S Europe to meet the EUs growing demand. They figure if they control the energy, they control Europe. So, this is about power as well as money.

Russia's Southstream looked like the winner in the Caspian Basin sweepstakes, but the Ukraine crisis puts that at risk. If Putin had charged in guns blazing, Southstream would have been toast. But--as of today--it is still set to deliver sometime in 2018. (although Obama will definitely try to throw a wrench in the deal)

The US oil companies need something big to get them back in the game. Odessa didn't work and this latest fiasco (shooting their own troops so they could blame anti-coup activists) just shows how desperate they're getting.

Something BIG is coming. They're running out of time, things are getting worse, and the politics are shifting in Putin's favor.

The Neocons don't give up easily. They're going to do something reckless and unexpected. Something BIG.

They're not ready to give up yet.

Posted by: plantman | May 24, 2014 1:55:58 PM | 13

PoroChoco has also, allegedly, offered a bounty of 1000.00 hryvnyas per day (this is substantially more than army pay) plus a 1000,000.00 hryvnya life insurance policy to "volunteers" who will take up arms against the southeast and crush the rebellion.

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_05_24/Petr-Poroshenko-promises-to-pay-1-000-hryvnyas-per-day-to-Ukrainian-mercenaries-of-punitive-units-6149/

I would point out here that this offer is made as a private citizen, although it would be arguably even worse if he waited for the formality of being inaugurated as President.

Is that legal? Sure isn't. So saith the International Convention Against the Recruitment, Use, Financing and Training of Mercenaries of 1989 to which Ukraine is a party state.

http://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/States.xsp?xp_viewStates=XPages_NORMStatesParties&xp_treatySelected=530

Many will note Article 1 para. 1:(c) states that a mercenary is "neither a national of a party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a party to the conflict" Of course, these are all locals, Ukrainian nationals being lured by the promise of money to kill other Ukrainians until sufficient numbers have been killed that the remainder see resistance is useless and surrender to the will of the state. However, the law was originally written to curtail the use of mercenaries in Africa, where they were mostly hirelings from other countries. I believe the codicil contained in Article 5:2, to wit; "States Parties shall not recruit, use, finance or train mercenaries for the purpose of opposing the legitimate exercise of the inalienable right of peoples to self-determination, as recognized by international law, and shall take, in conformity with international law, the appropriate measures to prevent the recruitment, use, financing or training of mercenaries for that purpose."

The west will of course argue that this is not a legitimate exercise of the right of self-determination and that it is instead an attempt to "interfere with Ukraine's borders" - although the right to self-determination is described herein as "inalienable", which means "unable to be taken away from or given away by the possessor" - but the west has welcomed many other such exercises of self-determination when they suited its interests. I believe the description in Article 5:2 encompasses activities on the part of well-connected private citizens, especially one who expects to be the national head of state by sundown tomorrow, for the purposes of raising a paid army which is untrained in the laws of armed conflict and has no interest in minimizing casualties among non-combatants.

Posted by: Mark | May 24, 2014 2:03:35 PM | 14

They could destroy Slavyansk. That's what Strelsov thinks they'll do. He has tried to get the population to evacuate, but of course they haven't evacuated. People never do, because they don't believe the bastards will actually do it. Until it happens, of course. Then they run for the exits, and hopefully Streltsov has organised something like a bus pool to get them out. Any old checkpoints are better than being bombarded by a Smerch battery, similar to a Grad battery, can fire dozens of large rockets in one fast salvo, then reload and do it again, etc.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 24, 2014 2:07:14 PM | 15

Yup, another US "defeat" just like Korea, Vietnam and every single other adventure the US has been involved in for 50+ years.

The end is like totally nigh what with all of the palpable and open dissent/disagreement I witnessed among the US/Western populace and elite over Ukraine, huh? Wasn't that great?!!

Yup, it's gonna be awesome seeing all of those war criminals punished for this latest escapade, right guys? Justice is the buzzword on EVERYONE'S lips!!

Why, I even bet the US won't make it as a nation to next week with such a terrible terrible earth-shattering defeat. The US is dead. The future's so bright I've got to wear shades. I can't wait to Tweet about this!! TOTALLY RAD!!

Go ahead, go back to bed fake bourgeois left, you've "won" another one against the big bad, "incompetent" US and deserve the rest. Your super-sleuthing and eternal optimism has once again stopped the war criminal US Empire dead in its tracks and accelerated its dissolution that you all have been banking on for what 40? 50? years now?

Holy fuck, for a little circumspection.

And people wonder how such an OBVIOUS neoliberal con-artist such as Obama could take hold of an entire nation's imagination so thoroughly.

Wow.

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 24, 2014 2:07:41 PM | 16

Adding:

Embarrassing.

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 24, 2014 2:09:04 PM | 17

JSorrentine,

I agree with you, I almost always do -- and always share your rage. So this is an honest question: what the hell can we do about it?

Posted by: Nora | May 24, 2014 2:55:41 PM | 18

Embarrassing.

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 24, 2014 2:09:04 PM | 17

I accept your apology. I was even more embarrassed for you than you were for yourself.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | May 24, 2014 2:57:06 PM | 19

"Post-WWII Ukraine saw the struggle of anti-Soviet partisans in the West until the early 1950s, but also a large scale economic reconstruction."

What the LSE article fails to mention is that this post-WWII "struggle" was largely financed and run by the CIA. Don't take my word for it. Chapter Five of the recently published National Archives book, "Hitler's Shadow: Nazi War Criminals, U.S. Intelligence and the Cold War," contains some of these details. URL is http://www.archives.gov/iwg/reports/hitlers-shadow.pdf

See also this 1986 Village Voice article by Joe Conason: http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/essays/conasoncatchnazi86.pdf

Posted by: Jeff Kaye | May 24, 2014 2:59:21 PM | 20

What a surprise/coincidencidental happenstance...
Nora (Sorrentine) breaks her silence to agree with JSorrentine.
Again.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | May 24, 2014 3:06:16 PM | 21

Why does JSorrentine waste so much energy on a "fake bourgeoise left" blog?
"B" correctly believes the Iraq/Afghan wars were failures for the Empire, JS is on record proclaiming both victories.
Re Snowden and Co and in relation to "B" it goes downhill from there.


http://www.salon.com/2014/05/24/greenwalds_haters_exposed_the_real_reason_michael_kinsley_hates_him/

Posted by: truthbetold | May 24, 2014 3:06:16 PM | 22

Oh for God's sake, Hoarsewhisperer. I'm not silent -- check the Saker. I just don't bother responding here that much. I wouldn't know JSorrentine if I fell over him, I just happen to agree with a lot that he says.

And I asked an honest question. Let me try another one: why does that bother you so much?

Posted by: Nora | May 24, 2014 3:10:40 PM | 23

b, you share the optimism of Sergei Mikheyev (your next to last link). Your optimism is one of the things I like about you, but it's possible that Poroshenko will further the accession agreement with EU, plus NATO status of some kind immediately. The Gazprom deal with China changes the "chessboard" but it's consequences will mostly effect the EU, meaning the neocons, first won't care, and second, will double down to "contain" Russia. There's lots more the neocons can do to make Ukraine a failed state, and "it will be worth it".

Posted by: okie farmer | May 24, 2014 3:14:06 PM | 24

From Russia "Stratfor"

Several houses destroyed in Slavyansk by artillery fire

News | 23.05.2014 | 19:29

Several houses were destroyed when Slavyansk and its suburbs were hit by massive artillery fire overnight, a member of the local people's police force told ITAR-TASS on Friday. Ukrainian government forces particularly intensively fired at the village of Semyonovka, he said. A house burned up after it was hit by a direct strike. The family left the house the day before, and thus survived. A neighboring house was partly destroyed after a shell exploded right on its porch. Another house near the center of Slavyansk was partly destroyed when a shell exploded near the gates, the source said.

http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/05/23/several-houses-destroyed-in-slavyansk-by-artillery-fire.html

Posted by: okie farmer | May 24, 2014 3:23:08 PM | 25

Lastly:

Ukraine is what the 50th? 60th? consecutive and successful - meaning there will be zero repercussions for the US elite - overt ousting of the ruler/government of a sovereign nation by the American war criminal elite and there are people here who think that Ukraine signals the demise/downfall/backtracking of the US? By what metric?

There is ZERO cry for the return of the democratically elected Ukrainian government in the Western world.

There is ZERO cry for any action to make the US be subject to some sort of penalty or review.

Even worse the "Putler" meme is now so commonplace/ubiquitous in the West - thanks again, Hillary and Prince C! - that one can see that the Cold War: Part Deux narrative has been successfully rolled out - gee, it sure seems that whenever TPTB roll-out a new narrative they go big, huh? Georgia? Belarus? Fuck that, bitches! - and that now NO ONE in the US can/will dare attempt to stand in the way of any increase in military/defense spending to thwart Putler's latest dastardly deed.

Yeah, I'm sure the CIA et al would only create false flags that can be blamed on crazy Muslims, right? Wink.

Maybe this Ukraine business all was a necon plot originally but EVERYONE in the US Establishment has fallen in line behind the new narrative in some aspect. TO A PERSON.

From where I'm standing the US has successfully 1) brought real chaos to Russia's borders 2) rolled out their new narrative for the politicians, media whores, capitalists and military to operate under and 3) avoided prosecution/justice once again.

Nothing's yet been rolled back and actually the chaos of Empire has been extended into new "markets" in which it wasn't overtly present before. What's not to like?

Competing/fighting against ragtag MUSLIMS could only work for so long anyways, right guys and gals? Sorry to all those victims - sorry, "terrorists" - caught in the US intel entrapment stings over the years and who are rotting in US prisons for the rest of their lives. You guys were great but The Show must go on!

Aside: Why, the Tsarnevs could almost be seen - from a common US imbecile citizen POV - as "bridge" patsies connecting the two narratives - i.e., the GWOT and Cold War:Part Deux, huh? Mabel, weren't those Boston Bombers like Russian or sumpthin'? Fucking Putler.

What next? If I'm a war criminal US elite member, I just keep stirring up shit in the Ukraine on the cheap - for YEARS if need be - on the military/political/social fronts in hopes of provoking Putin all the while just waiting and waiting until something happens that provides the opening needed for furtherance of the plan. I hope Putler doesn't plan on retiring any time soon.

Oh, yeah, I forgot, we needn't worry about any of this shit because obviously the US dollar is going to collapse, the polar ice caps are going to melt, the American Civil War: Part Deux is right around the corner and a host of other fantastical scenarios are on the brink of occurring all of which will peacefully provide the world with a needed respite from continued US war criminality.

My bad.

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 24, 2014 3:23:26 PM | 26

"Poroshenko will be send eastward to pledge allegiance to Russia and to sign the unconditional surrender treaty."

Doubtful. The west may have him offer a few cookies to the Russians, though, as a distraction.

"It all comes back to money."

"The key point here is that there can be no viable Ukraine without serious contributions from both Russia and the West."

I seriously doubt the western fascists have thrown in the towel. What I think is the west may be shifting gears. The western attempt to sucker Russia into invading the Ukraine using terrorism against the people of eastern Ukraine isn't working. It sounds like the western banksters want to scam Russia into paying for the western havoc wrought on the Ukraine, but probably without offering them any sort of real "collateral" for their "investment". Perhaps it's just a ploy to influence Russia with regard to the "Choco King's" holdings in Russia, and prevent their "nationalization", or that of the other western aligned Ukrainian oligarchs.

If the west pulls their terrorists out of the east and sacks the mercs, then I'll believe they might be actually backing off and be willing to forgo their strategy of using Ukraine as a way to weaken Russia.

Posted by: scalawag | May 24, 2014 3:28:22 PM | 27

And I asked an honest question. Let me try another one: why does that bother you so much?
Posted by: Nora | May 24, 2014 3:10:40 PM | 23

Because you only come here to spread doom, gloom, and negative sentiments.

The USA, as we knew it, is FUCKED (excuse my French) and your myopia is excessively irritating.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | May 24, 2014 3:30:32 PM | 28

@18

I don't know but for contemporary thinking on a similar topic, Derrick Jensen has spoken to continuing to live/act beyond hope vis a vis environmentalism/activism and some of that type thinking may be applicable/transferable. Obviously, he's not addressing this scenario/context and therefore his analogies/metaphors are not entirely apt but I think it's an interesting place from which to think from especially living among my psychotically brainwashed and optimistic fellow Murkans.

What would happen if people really crossed the line of manufactured "hope" and put themselves beyond the reach of TPTB's most formidable weapon - i.e., their propaganda mechanisms? What type of actions, deeds and thoughts would dominate our discourse and discussions? What sacrifices would people be willing to make?

It obviously was not a mistake that Obama so blatantly/successfully used "Hope" and "Change" during his ascension to office. They are terms/ideas nearly hard-wired into the the American/Western psyche/capitalist superstructure. No matter how hard your life is, people have been told to NEVER EVER EVER EVER give up, stop dreaming, hoping, etc.

Don't get pissed off or angry. Just smile and believe that tomorrow will be better than today!Awwwwwhhhh. Would you like fries with that?

Gotta run.

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 24, 2014 3:43:05 PM | 29

Hoarsewhisperer #28,

Oh, Sweetheart, let me spread you some sweetness and light and unicorns and pink fairy bubbles and...

WTF?

I asked an honest question.

I don't think it's my "myopia" you find so irritating...

Posted by: Nora | May 24, 2014 4:02:31 PM | 30

Three foreign journalists caught in violence near Slavyansk, two possibly dead - reports

An Italian reporter and his interpreter may have been shot dead and a French photographer has been wounded near the city of Slavyansk, in eastern Ukraine, as their car came under fire, Russian media report.

The injured French journalist identified as William Roguelon has been taken to a local hospital where he received treatment and managed to leave the facility on his own.

The man, who works as a freelance photographer, has told Russian media that after the shooting he saw his Italian colleagues lying on the ground not moving, Rossiya 24 channel reported.

“In the village of Andreyevka, not far from Slavyansk, an Italian journalist and his interpreter have been shot dead and a French correspondent wounded. Their car came under fire,” a source from the self-defense forces has told RIA Novosti.

The area around the city of Slavyansk has been gripped by violence on Saturday, a day before the scheduled presidential election. Shooting was reported in the village of Semyonovka, where a psychiatric hospital has been partly ruined in a fight between Kiev troops and self-defense forces. Witnesses said a shell hit the roof of the hospital.

According to reports, shooting, artillery and machinegun fire have been heard in the outskirts of Semyonovka starting Friday night.

Shell-holes can be seen in the ground all around the village. Smoke was reportedly seen billowing from at least three locations in Slavyansk on Saturday.

Posted by: scalawag | May 24, 2014 4:03:57 PM | 31

crossposting this from the saker:
RT
i think this video features them:
Anna News Video
you can hear an italian woman speaking in the background, chatting and joking with the defenders.
interestingly the youtube account of anna news got deleted after publishing this video. they seem to have opened a new channel on youtube:
TV News Front

Posted by: svd | May 24, 2014 4:31:28 PM | 32

Jeez, today is a good day for interlocking circular jerk-fests

Posted by: Gilbert | May 24, 2014 4:40:03 PM | 33

The Neo-Cons are much dimmer than you, b. They may not have understood yet.

In any case, I can't imagine a central government, legitimate or not, tolerating an independist movement. So far they've been remarkably incompetent. But I can't see them stopping. There's a way to go before federalisation is accepted.

Posted by: Alexno | May 24, 2014 4:41:53 PM | 34

b Your analysis is balanced and thoughtful.

The novels “The Great Gatsby” and “The Quiet American” are portraits of Americans’ as naïve innocents who leave destruction in their wake; clueless of the damage they’ve done. An online movie review of the remake of "The Quiet American" said ‘Oh, Greene clearly communicated the rotten roots of American involvement in Vietnam 50 years ago, and nobody cared then either.'

What is remarkable is how corruption and propaganda has seized the United States of America. ULA is the sole source military space launcher for the US Air Force. The rocket engines are made in Russia. Russia has prohibited their use in military rockets. It is a prime example of buddy capitalism that gets a few people rich and guts national security, all at the same time. It has not been mentioned in corporate media. Meanwhile, PBS had an interview last night with the head of security for the Ukraine Junta last who blamed all of Ukraine’s problems on Vladimir Putin. There was no mention of USA and EU involvement in the coup or the ultra-nationalist anti-Russian beliefs of the Putsch.

In the previous post there was a good discussion of trying to determine who attacked the Ukraine Army position. This is important because it was a clear attempt to prod the Ukraine Army into attempting to pacify the Russian majority speaking provinces and escalate the intensity of the civil war.

It is clear that the Western Elite are spending money to gain access to Ukraine. Unless a neutral Finlandized Ukraine is agreed to right now, Ukraine will split apart in a bloody religious civil war that likely would draw NATO and Russia into a shooting war. So a few wealthy families can get richer, the Ukrainians are relegated to hell, Europeans may face a freezing winter, and all of mankind has a significantly increased chance of mass extinction.

Posted by: VietnamVet | May 24, 2014 4:48:31 PM | 35

Putin holds all the cards.

Putin holds a House of Cards.

My blog is a commemoration to him. He'll have time to read it when he's rotting away in the Hague in six years if he's not assassinated first.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | May 24, 2014 5:03:47 PM | 36

Posted by: svd | May 24, 2014 4:31:28 PM | 32

"interestingly the youtube account of anna news got deleted after publishing this video.

The new youtube site only has video reports from the Ukraine, from what I could see.

Posted by: scalawag | May 24, 2014 5:18:52 PM | 37

I posted a story from Lifenews about their 2 reporters finally being released. It got blocked by MoA. RT now has the story, I'll try posting their article.

Russian journalists released, flown from Kiev to Russia

"Two Russian journalists working for LifeNews agency, detained by Kiev forces for almost a week, have been released and flown to Russia, according to the head of the Chechen Republic Ramzan Kadyrov.

“Oleg Sidyakin and Marat Saichenko are free! The plane carrying them set a course from Kiev for Grozny!” Kadyrov wrote in his Instagram along with a photo of the journalists aboard the aircraft."

Posted by: scalawag | May 24, 2014 5:24:22 PM | 38

As long as whatever (necessarily )PRO RUSSIAN Oligarch takes over, has Yatsenyuk, Tymoshenko and Turchynov publically executed by axe and block, I will order my minions to resume normal relations with Ukraine ...No executions..no deal...oh yes, Klitschko might escape the block but only if he crawls from one end of Odessa to the other, wearing a dress, and begs forgiveness for his treason - from President Putin.

Posted by: Marc | May 24, 2014 5:37:35 PM | 39

My money is on Hollywood....http://youtu.be/6Lt2oy2jUWY

Posted by: dh | May 24, 2014 5:43:52 PM | 40

Posted by: Alexno | May 24, 2014 4:41:53 PM | 34

I don't see the conflict ending any time soon either.

Poroshenko will not be able even if willing to stop this idea of uniting Ukraine

Ukraine's Yugoslavia moment came the day after the 22 February coup when the Rada voted to abolish the Russian language at every level of government. The mainstream media casually dismissed this act as meaningless because it occurred in the 'heat of revolution'. This is false. When the barbarians storm the gates and there are 100 fires burning, what they choose to do first tells you of their priorities.

Ukraine's new European overlords saw the Russian language as a bigger problem than their country's skyrocketing debt-to-GDP ratio, rampant corruption and fertility rates which happen to be among the lowest-of-low in the world.

Ukraine in its historic understanding as a safe place where different people can live together is dead. Ukraine as a Ukrainian State or Ukrainian Derzhava is the now. Its ethos is similar to what far-right politicians like Ruža Tomašić call for where "Croatia is for Croats and everyone else is a guest"

and this

As Ukrainians prepare for snap presidential elections Sunday, the biggest question is less who will win than how much of the country they will have left to govern...

Nonetheless, the lack of a coherent, organized mass separatist movement has arguably been the biggest problem for Kiev’s central government, which instead has to deal with a sprawling, shifting morass of sporadic violence it seems unable to contain. Roman Svitan, a security advisor to Kiev-appointed Donetsk governor Sergei Taruta, estimates there are between 1,500 and 2,500 different armed groups active in the province, their membership ranging from one to 200 and their number changing multiple times every single day. “I can’t even tell you how things are — in two hours it’ll be completely different,” he said...

The eventual victor will also still have to make do with Ukraine’s underfunded, poorly equipped armed forces, who are suffering increased losses in bloody battles with militia. Their failure to dislodge the rebels has seen numerous pro-Kiev groups spawn and carry out unsanctioned vigilante attacks.

No matter what Poroshenko does, he depends on a rump parliament (Ukraine returned to the 2004 constitution that restricts presidential powers) that is bent on Ukrainian unity by language and culture not by diversity thereby de facto excluding large parts of the population, he lacks any military power of his own, and he is faced by armed groups that have to be negotiated with one by one.

Posted by: somebody | May 24, 2014 5:45:37 PM | 41

Posted by: Alexno | May 24, 2014 4:41:53 PM | 34

I don't see the conflict ending any time soon either.

Poroshenko will not be able even if willing to stop this idea of uniting Ukraine

Ukraine's Yugoslavia moment came the day after the 22 February coup when the Rada voted to abolish the Russian language at every level of government. The mainstream media casually dismissed this act as meaningless because it occurred in the 'heat of revolution'. This is false. When the barbarians storm the gates and there are 100 fires burning, what they choose to do first tells you of their priorities.

Ukraine's new European overlords saw the Russian language as a bigger problem than their country's skyrocketing debt-to-GDP ratio, rampant corruption and fertility rates which happen to be among the lowest-of-low in the world.

Ukraine in its historic understanding as a safe place where different people can live together is dead. Ukraine as a Ukrainian State or Ukrainian Derzhava is the now. Its ethos is similar to what far-right politicians like Ruža Tomašić call for where "Croatia is for Croats and everyone else is a guest"

and this

As Ukrainians prepare for snap presidential elections Sunday, the biggest question is less who will win than how much of the country they will have left to govern...

Nonetheless, the lack of a coherent, organized mass separatist movement has arguably been the biggest problem for Kiev’s central government, which instead has to deal with a sprawling, shifting morass of sporadic violence it seems unable to contain. Roman Svitan, a security advisor to Kiev-appointed Donetsk governor Sergei Taruta, estimates there are between 1,500 and 2,500 different armed groups active in the province, their membership ranging from one to 200 and their number changing multiple times every single day. “I can’t even tell you how things are — in two hours it’ll be completely different,” he said...

The eventual victor will also still have to make do with Ukraine’s underfunded, poorly equipped armed forces, who are suffering increased losses in bloody battles with militia. Their failure to dislodge the rebels has seen numerous pro-Kiev groups spawn and carry out unsanctioned vigilante attacks.

No matter what Poroshenko does, he depends on a rump parliament (Ukraine returned to the 2004 constitution that restricts presidential powers) that is bent on Ukrainian unity by language and culture not by diversity thereby de facto excluding large parts of the population, he lacks any military power of his own, and he is faced by armed groups that have to be negotiated with one by one.

Posted by: somebody | May 24, 2014 5:46:57 PM | 42

@scalawag #38:

That's very good news.

It's a strange day when Russians get treated more kindly in Grozny than in Kiev.

Posted by: Demian | May 24, 2014 5:48:46 PM | 43

Posted by: Alexno | May 24, 2014 4:41:53 PM | 34

I don't see the conflict ending any time soon either.

Poroshenko will not be able even if willing to stop this idea of uniting Ukraine

Ukraine's Yugoslavia moment came the day after the 22 February coup when the Rada voted to abolish the Russian language at every level of government. The mainstream media casually dismissed this act as meaningless because it occurred in the 'heat of revolution'. This is false. When the barbarians storm the gates and there are 100 fires burning, what they choose to do first tells you of their priorities.

Ukraine's new European overlords saw the Russian language as a bigger problem than their country's skyrocketing debt-to-GDP ratio, rampant corruption and fertility rates which happen to be among the lowest-of-low in the world.

Ukraine in its historic understanding as a safe place where different people can live together is dead. Ukraine as a Ukrainian State or Ukrainian Derzhava is the now. Its ethos is similar to what far-right politicians like Ruža Tomašić call for where "Croatia is for Croats and everyone else is a guest"

and this

As Ukrainians prepare for snap presidential elections Sunday, the biggest question is less who will win than how much of the country they will have left to govern...

Nonetheless, the lack of a coherent, organized mass separatist movement has arguably been the biggest problem for Kiev’s central government, which instead has to deal with a sprawling, shifting morass of sporadic violence it seems unable to contain. Roman Svitan, a security advisor to Kiev-appointed Donetsk governor Sergei Taruta, estimates there are between 1,500 and 2,500 different armed groups active in the province, their membership ranging from one to 200 and their number changing multiple times every single day. “I can’t even tell you how things are — in two hours it’ll be completely different,” he said...

The eventual victor will also still have to make do with Ukraine’s underfunded, poorly equipped armed forces, who are suffering increased losses in bloody battles with militia. Their failure to dislodge the rebels has seen numerous pro-Kiev groups spawn and carry out unsanctioned vigilante attacks.

No matter what Poroshenko does, he depends on a rump parliament (Ukraine returned to the 2004 constitution that restricts presidential powers) that is bent on Ukrainian unity by language and culture not by diversity thereby de facto excluding large parts of the population, he lacks any military power of his own, and he is faced by armed groups that have to be negotiated with one by one.

Posted by: somebody | May 24, 2014 5:52:13 PM | 44

On this very important blog there have been outbursts from people who feel that they are somehow above and beyond the situation in Ukraine, who have seen the script repeated again and again, and are contemptuous and frustrated that so little is done. I sympathize with that sentiment but what are you doing and what have you done? 'B' is doing a hell of a lot. I gave up my degree to fight for the Latin America cause in the 1970s and I continued that until now. And yes I am poor. But I have waited 34 years for this moment, when as Hoarsewhisper says, they are bankrupt, they are finished.

Posted by: Brevig Bay | May 24, 2014 5:55:10 PM | 45

On this very important blog there have been outbursts from people who feel that they are somehow above and beyond the situation in Ukraine, who have seen the script repeated again and again, and are contemptuous and frustrated that so little is done. I sympathize with that sentiment but what are you doing and what have you done? 'B' is doing a hell of a lot. I gave up my degree to fight for the Latin America cause in the 1970s and I continued that until now. And yes I am poor. But I have waited 34 years for this moment, when as Hoarsewhisper says, they are bankrupt, they are finished.

Posted by: Brevig Bay | May 24, 2014 5:55:36 PM | 46

Posted by: dh | May 24, 2014 5:43:52 PM | 40

I am all for Darth Vader. When others are all fakes, at least, he is not pretending that he is not pretending.

Here are his campaign ads.

http://youtu.be/JxnXGxF-PBk

http://youtu.be/II_3xsf2ITE

http://youtu.be/qdcHDZHmS_I

http://youtu.be/jqg88xOI95E


Also RT story about him

http://rt.com/news/vader-presidential-hopeful-ukraine-885/

“I am prepared to take responsibility for the fate of this country, if fellow citizens do me this high honor. I alone can make an empire out of a republic, to restore former glory, to return lost territories and pride for this country,” the Sith lord said.
...
In interviews, Vader explained that his master is interested in Ukraine because “the Force is strong here.”

Another one.

http://rt.com/news/156220-darth-vader-ukraine-mayor/


Posted by: PuppetMaster | May 24, 2014 5:58:42 PM | 47

Posted by: dh | May 24, 2014 5:43:52 PM | 40

I am all for Darth Vader. When others are all fakes, at least, he is not pretending that he is not pretending.

Here are his campaign ads.

http://youtu.be/JxnXGxF-PBk

http://youtu.be/II_3xsf2ITE

http://youtu.be/qdcHDZHmS_I

http://youtu.be/jqg88xOI95E


Also RT story about him

http://rt.com/news/vader-presidential-hopeful-ukraine-885/

“I am prepared to take responsibility for the fate of this country, if fellow citizens do me this high honor. I alone can make an empire out of a republic, to restore former glory, to return lost territories and pride for this country,” the Sith lord said.
...
In interviews, Vader explained that his master is interested in Ukraine because “the Force is strong here.”

Another one.

http://rt.com/news/156220-darth-vader-ukraine-mayor/


Posted by: PuppetMaster | May 24, 2014 6:00:18 PM | 48

I somehow feel the comment section needs some chauvenistic Russian warmongering. Does anybody around here do that? Pity.

Posted by: Grim Deadman | May 24, 2014 6:01:32 PM | 49

Posted by: dh | May 24, 2014 5:43:52 PM | 40

I am all for Darth Vader. When others are all fakes, at least, he is not pretending that he is not pretending.

Here are his campaign ads.

http://youtu.be/JxnXGxF-PBk

http://youtu.be/II_3xsf2ITE

http://youtu.be/qdcHDZHmS_I

http://youtu.be/jqg88xOI95E


Also RT story about him

http://rt.com/news/vader-presidential-hopeful-ukraine-885/

“I am prepared to take responsibility for the fate of this country, if fellow citizens do me this high honor. I alone can make an empire out of a republic, to restore former glory, to return lost territories and pride for this country,” the Sith lord said.
...
In interviews, Vader explained that his master is interested in Ukraine because “the Force is strong here.”

Another one.

http://rt.com/news/156220-darth-vader-ukraine-mayor/


Posted by: PuppetMaster | May 24, 2014 6:02:46 PM | 50

@somebody #41:

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. Good articles, by the way (despite The Buzzfeed piece painting Ukrainian fascism as an invention of the Party of Regions).

It's pretty hard to deny that a civil war has started, and in such wars, if one side wants to secede, the other side pretty much has to decisively win the war for the unity of the country to be preserved. (I read somewhere recently that the first time the Americans used their beloved concept of unconditional surrender was in their Civil War.)

Posted by: Demian | May 24, 2014 6:08:20 PM | 51

Posted by: PuppetMaster | May 24, 2014 6:02:46 PM | 50

Darth Vader, you say?

GRTV: Propaganda and the Ukraine Crisis

"This full length GRTV documentary produced by Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya examines the fictitious land of “Nulandistan” (named after Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland) that has been constructed out of Ukraine.

It depicts how the realities of crimes against humanity and political oppression involving terrorist mobs are casually replaced by a World of fiction, in which real “Western style democracy” prevails.

It deconstructs the rhetoric and propaganda of the Obama Administration and its European allies regarding the crisis in Ukraine and takes a look at their growing frustration towards the Russian media, particularly RT, for challenging their account of events on the ground in what they have declared is an intensifying “information war”.

The documentary starts with an examination of the EuroMaidan protests that both Washington and the Western media have used to justify the instatement of an unelected self-proclaimed regime in Kiev.

The May 2 Odessa Massacre and the political protest movement leading up to the referendums in Donesk and Luhansk in East Ukraine are reviewed.

The underlying focus is to show how the reality of events in Ukraine has been been misappropriated and propagandized to support US foreign policy and to justify tensions against Russia."

Posted by: scalawag | May 24, 2014 6:20:57 PM | 52

Posted by: PuppetMaster | May 24, 2014 6:02:46 PM | 50

Darth Vader, you say?

GRTV: Propaganda and the Ukraine Crisis

"This full length GRTV documentary produced by Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya examines the fictitious land of “Nulandistan” (named after Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland) that has been constructed out of Ukraine.

It depicts how the realities of crimes against humanity and political oppression involving terrorist mobs are casually replaced by a World of fiction, in which real “Western style democracy” prevails.

It deconstructs the rhetoric and propaganda of the Obama Administration and its European allies regarding the crisis in Ukraine and takes a look at their growing frustration towards the Russian media, particularly RT, for challenging their account of events on the ground in what they have declared is an intensifying “information war”.

The documentary starts with an examination of the EuroMaidan protests that both Washington and the Western media have used to justify the instatement of an unelected self-proclaimed regime in Kiev.

The May 2 Odessa Massacre and the political protest movement leading up to the referendums in Donesk and Luhansk in East Ukraine are reviewed.

The underlying focus is to show how the reality of events in Ukraine has been been misappropriated and propagandized to support US foreign policy and to justify tensions against Russia."

Posted by: scalawag | May 24, 2014 6:21:07 PM | 53

Sorry about the double post. Connection to the site appears off and on. Seeing all the other double postings, I wonder if typepad is having problems again?

Posted by: scalawag | May 24, 2014 6:24:21 PM | 54

Ukrainian rebels opt for new state

The formation of Novorossiya, or New Russia, as the eastern part of Ukraine was called in the 19th century, was announced at a meeting of pro-independence activists from Ukraine’s eight southeast provinces in Donetsk.

Novorossiya will initially be made up of the “People’s Republics” of Donetsk and Luhansk, which declared their independence earlier this month. It is planned that six more regions — Nikoyayev, Odessa, Dnepropetrovsk, Kharkiv, Zaporozhie and Kherson, will join the new state after holding referendums on independence, similar to those held in Donetsk and Luhansk held in May.

As I've said, if all those regions secede as well, the best outcome will be for the rump Ukraine (Banderistan) to be absorbed by the neighboring EU states.

Posted by: Demian | May 24, 2014 6:27:37 PM | 55

The great advantage people like ourselves, sceptics, critics of capitalism, enemies of imperialism (for such I take most of us who gather here to be) have, over those who defend the system, the think tankers, MSM pundits and the plump whores of Academic life, is that we think for ourselves. We base our opinions on observation.
We look at the world and analyse what we see.
The conformists, who defend the system not out of conviction but in order to live prosperously, win promotion and the respect of the powerful, are not encouraged to think beyond the narrow parameters of what is permitted. Thus it is that, hidebound by ideology, they tend to drift further and further away from reality until their policy prescriptions become suicidal and the Empire that they worship, for fun and profit, collapses ignominiously into puddles of blood soaked, worthless paper.
To be specific: the neo-cons, reviving the policies of the old British empire, using gunboat diplomacy (which is no diplomacy at all) to keep the natives in order, policing the sea lanes and controlling international trade and finance, employing modern equivalents of the Royal Navy and the City of London, are a century out of date. The world that they excelled in understanding, Admiral Mahan’s world, the world of maritime empires based on sea power and international trade across the oceans, is rapidly passing.
No wonder they double up-also at the behest of the billionaire oligarchs whose arses they lick-as climate change deniers. The rapid disappearance of polar ice presages a rise in sea levels which will put most modern ports out of business. And reduce the power of navies to nothing more than that of expensive, unstable rusting platforms for missiles pointed inland. The days of gunboat diplomacy are disappearing however not because of global warming but because, as the recent Sino-Russian gas deal showed, the main trading routes are no longer sea lanes but cross continental roads.
The old Empire, which became powerful because it stood astride the sea routes, and maintained its power by controlling trade and finance, is becoming peripheral. Islands, such as Britain and America are no longer secure but out of the way.
But such things, simple enough for us who have no investment in the Empire and therefore see it without illusions, are beyond the understanding of the conventional, the conformists, the Brookings Institution and the high foreheads who labour in the ideology factories of the Universities and the media. In their world the Great White Father or Queen Victoria always rules and nothing really changes.
If the US State Department wishes to take over Ukraine it will do so. Because it always prevails in the end. If the US Department of Finance wishes to bring Russia to heel, it will do so because it always does.
Or so at least it tells us: in fact it rarely does. It failed to make Iran submit. Its writs are still ignored in North Korea. China, where politeness in an ancient art, finds it harder every week to stifle a yawn or suppress a laugh when the US issues another threat. Successive and ruinously expensive military expeditions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, Sudan, across south east Asia, throughout Africa have left mountains of corpses and piles of rust and rubble, cancer wards full of victims and generations of implacable disdain for their authors but nothing tangible. Nothing in the way of reward, just long term expenses only sustainable so long as the dollar maintains its reserve status. And that is wholly dependent on the goodwill and self interest of Asian banks.
As the US has fought wars, since 1945, China has elevated itself, entirely by its own efforts, from the depths of poverty and defeat. It is, once more, as it was until the 1880s and had been for the previous two millennia, the most powerful economy in the world, lacking only those armaments necessary to gunboat diplomacy, in which the US swims, vast stocks of weapons without purpose, obsolete since the H bomb was invented and useful only to destroy capital. Which China has no desire to do, because it has a perspective of future life, development and coming to grips with real problems.
Whereas the Empire is dying, blind and deluded, drugged by self regard and hypnotised by a past which it never understood because it used to be powerful enough to ignore reality and comfort itself with its racist myths.
If the real issue of the future is that of the 1% against the 99%, the issue of the present is to dispose of the nonsense that the 6% of the world’s who are the United States can continue to insist that the 94%, the masses of Asia, Africa and what was called the Third World-including the hundreds of millions newly recruited by shock therapists trained in Harvard, from the Second World-live lives which are nasty brutish and short simply in order to keep the “west” in the style to which it has grown accustomed.
The importance of “b”’s post is that it reminds us how weak the Empire is and how vulnerable it is to sustained criticism. It is not just that it can no longer control events in the world-in which it has only the power to destroy and kill- but that this is becoming so evident that its own subjects, on whose support, loyal patriotism and, ultimately, apathetic resignation it relies for continued existence, are getting very close to revolting, as the bargains that they made, as the price of their loyalty- rising living standards, full employment, old age security, educational opportunities to social mobility and access to healthcare and other social services- are dishonoured in this age of Detroit.

Posted by: bevin | May 24, 2014 6:30:57 PM | 56

Posted by: Demian | May 24, 2014 6:27:37 PM | 55

Sounds like they declare war on the Kyiv government as illegal but not on the Ukrainian state. They also declare Yanukovich as their president.

This is now civil war all right. Next step the official split of the Ukrainian army.

Posted by: somebody | May 24, 2014 6:36:43 PM | 57

New sitrep at the Vineyart of the Saker. Short, but ominous.

Ukraine SITREP May 24th, 22:52 UTC/Zulu: escalation across the Donbass

Heavy fighting around Slavyansk increasing in tempo for the last 3 hours. Slavyansk under assault from 7 areas. Artillery is being used, at least one apartment building is burning in one of the outlying towns under assault.

Self propelled arty, Msta-S reported, 15.2 cm howitzer type, are on the move with all their support echelons. Tanks are on the move, some heading for Slavyansk, some Donetsk.

Grad batteries are on the move, direction unknown.

Numerous BTR's are on the move, mostly right sector troops on them.

At least one Sukhoi ID'd in a bomb and rocket attack.

Mi24's were supporting two of the Slavyansk attacks until dark.

Looks like the full assault. Going to be a long night.

The man in this photo is no Ukrainian soldier although photoed in Donetsk Oblast. BTR is obviously Afgan or Irak service with the metal screens all around. Only seen the one, photo is from RT of all places with no comment, BTR has been seen in several vids as has that one soldier.

Two foreign journalists get killed by arty, their Russian translator, a women, almost dead and their driver badly wounded. The Video was up on YouTube and gone in minutes. Near Slavyansk.

Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics have declared the creation of Novorossiya union.

145 delegates from the Odessa, Nikolaev, Dnepropetrovsk, Zaporozhye, Kharkov, Kherson, Donetsk and Lugansk Regions have announced the creation of a pro-federalization Popular Front which now unites all of the Ukrainian regions East of the Dniepr river and on the Black Sea coast.

The zionists at Youtube are getting very anal about their censorship role for the fascists now. They always seem to know when their "services" are needed most by the western fascists.

Posted by: scalawag | May 24, 2014 7:06:26 PM | 58

@somebody #57:

The part directed at Russia from your link (yandex trans.):

6. In this regard, we were surprised to hear evaluations made in Moscow, where the elections were called "a step in the right direction". We encourage politicians of Russia to again carefully consider their position. Can something be a "step in the right direction" if it involves actions leading to a fiercer war? Can something be a "step in the right direction" if it promotes and legitimizes the regime, which has already proved its ability to commit any war crimes, including the use of WMD and the execution of wounded right on the beds occupied by them inhospital? Can, eventually, it be a "step in the right direction" to promote the Nazis victorious in Kiev Nazi to the legitimate election of their new Fuhrer?

Perhaps, the politicians of Russia are building some kind of illusions about the new authorities in Kiev. We assume that these illusions will be destroyed on May 26, 2014, when the lists of victims of war and committed war crimes will be replenished with new and new facts. But in this case the blood will be on the conscience of everyone who directly or indirectly supported the elections on May 25.

We call upon all politicians immediately to distance themselves from these illegal elections, to condemn them, and in a definite way to make a statement about the non-recognition of their results.

Posted by: Demian | May 24, 2014 7:11:16 PM | 59

There is simply no viable alternative for Ukraine than to cooperate with Russia and to pay the price that is necessary to do so. That is why Russia is just sitting back and waiting for that simple truth to become evident.

while the Great North American Professor of Clueless-osity is busy preening about in front of the mirror praising himself (***) for his apparently wonderful wonderful abilities to think for himself (###) and while b's fawning mob of acolytes praise him for his apparently astute analysis, Id just like to take the opportunity to point out that when the Ukrainians are dying in large numbers from hypothermia this coming Winter, as they most assuredly will without a Gas Supply to heat their homes,
Imagine the headlines . . . "Mr Putin, Turn on the Gas" (with it's somewhat ironic holocausty connotations) , "Putin's Barbaric Russia Freezes sweet old Ukrainian Grannies to death" etc etc

when those large numbers of Ukrainians are freezing to death, it is Russia that will be blamed by most of the World's Media.

Not Yats.
Not Obomber.
Not Nuland.
Not Kerry.
Not Merkel.
Not Neo-Nazis.
Not even Banderistas.

So when the host states that there is "simply no viable alternative" other than to co-operate with Russia, he is showing that he really hasn't understood the situation at all.

"The Chaos" IS "The Win!" - the non-co-operation of Ukraine with Russia IS the Win!

This should by now be crystal clear to anyone who even pretends to know what is going on.

IF this continues the host will soon be talking about Schwerpunkt's again, and declaring imminent complete defeat of of the NATO-proxies being visible . . . honest . . just over the next hill

Last time I remember him using that phrase was July 2012, and well, . . . . .
How'd that work out last time?

here we are End of May 2014, and I hate to burst the bubble of all you magnificent self-declared "self thinkers" but the Western created Islamo-Nutters in Syria, while certainly having suffered some setbacks, are still far from gone.

Now no doubt the magnificent "self thinkers" referenced by the Great North American Professor will waste no time at all telling me I'm talking nonsense, and engaging in there usual hilarious bouts of self-righteous clueless apoplexy, and will use the recent "truce" that has apparently been declared somewhere around the Syrian city of Homs, if Western Media reports are to be believed (which, I admit, they rarely are) as some sort of evidence that the NATO-Proxies in Syria have been completely defeated.

Well I'd just like to point out that "truce" has a very different meaning than "complete defeat"

So I'm more than just a little bit sceptical myself.

But unlike the Great North American Professor, I'm sceptical of just how well-deserved is this pedestal you lot seem intent on placing the host (and by extension, yourselves) upon.

Now after watching Libya, Syria and now Ukraine, that you lot STILL don't get what is going on, is frankly embarrassing to watch.


======

*** (what is it they say about "self-praise" again? I've forgotten. perhaps some of the truly magnificent 'self thinkers', that the Great Professor himself has assured us populate these comment threads, could remind me of the wording of that old saying)

### (not something I can say I have seen a lot of, from from the Great North American Professor, but obviously he is far far more clever and far far more perceptive than one such as I, and can see himself reflected in his mirror far far more clearly than mere mortals such as myself)

Posted by: LolWut? | May 24, 2014 7:54:15 PM | 60

PS

regarding the above: I base my opinions on observation.
I look at the world and analyse what I see.

Posted by: LolWut? | May 24, 2014 7:56:35 PM | 61

What "Great North American Professor" are you talking about?

Posted by: Fran | May 24, 2014 8:04:23 PM | 62

Славянск.Варшава в огне. Хунта бомбит жилой район.

"Slavyanskuyu in the fire. The junta bombed residential area."

Video of artillery or mortar shelling of Slavyansk.

Posted by: scalawag | May 24, 2014 8:15:37 PM | 63

Interesting perspective of “the 130th richest Jew in the world” - Petro Poroshenko.

http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/05/24/weapons-prostitutes-drugs-things-poroshenko-associated-with.html

No matter how few people may take part in the Ukraine’s presidential election on Sunday, the outcome is known in advance – Petro Poroshenko, the US favorite rote son, will be declared the winner of the race. The result will further split the country. Many regions refuse to recognize as President this chocolate king who is notorious for pocketing government money. Poroshenko has no chance to stop the bloody conflict even scrupulously carrying out all the orders given by Joe Biden, Victoria Nuland and Geoffrey Pyatt. Besides, the mission of putting an end to bloodshed has never been set by his US bosses…

Again, as it was in the case of Palestine, the Zionism is an iron fist of Imperialism and willing one at that. This time in Ukraine. Social engineering that favorite tool of liberal (international) oligarchy have made that the richest individual of Ukraine are Jews who comprise 0.2% (ZERO POINT TWO) of total population. And yet THEY control everything. Nothing happens in politics by accident nor those people are result of their entrepreneurial spirit and hard work. There is recipe behind their “success”. Moscow had managed to get rid of them but Ukraine, exemplar of client state, is at mercy of various NGOs such as Soros who bring up those people.

This is anything but normal and I believe that majority of population is sick of both sides - population which have found themselves in crosswind of oligarchical forces from three sides: West, domestic one, and Moscow.

“The dissatisfaction with the oligarchs in the Donbass and Luhansk is great,” Shmelyov said. They are to blame for much of the suffering of local workers. “Social anger is growing, and this will lead to a conflict between the population and the owners of factories and mines.” And that in turn may lead the new powers to nationalize those facilities.

Consequently, what we are seeing, he continued, “is not only the increasing collapse of Ukrainian statehood and the sharpening of regional conflicts in Ukraine. We are seeking the destruction of that liberal-oligarchic model of social-economic development on which Ukraine had been developing in recent years.”

Aleksandr Shatilov, a sociologist at Moscow’s Finance University, agreed, adding only that the tensions between workers and owners were growing not just in eastern Ukraine but throughout the country. He predicted that it was quite likely that there would be “a war not only against Kyiv but also against the Ukrainian oligarchs.”

But there is a danger to Moscow too.

It is certainly true that the passions of the miners and workers in eastern Ukraine could at least in the short term help Moscow to further undermine Kyiv. But their attacks on the oligarchs as a group simultaneously pose a threat to the Kremlin because they strike at the basis of the power of Vladimir Putin’s regime in Russia.


Posted by: neretva'43 | May 24, 2014 8:44:37 PM | 64

@neretva'43 #64:

That's all fine, expect for the last paragraph, which is totally wrong:

Putin lost the crucial big city yuppie class [his real initial power base, not the oligarchs: he didn't need the oligarchs after they put him in power and he then proceeded to neutralize them]. They’re gone for good. There are a lot of ways an autocrat in a nominally democratic country can respond to that. Putin has chosen a new politics appealing to the Russian Silent Majority, and that means appealing to their resentments, heating up the culture wars between liberal Moscow and the slower, fearful masses in the rest of those eleven time zones. To exploit the huge differences between the Moscow liberals and yuppies opposed to Putin, and the rest of the country that resents them.

Posted by: Demian | May 24, 2014 9:01:20 PM | 65

@ Posted by: Fran | May 24, 2014 8:04:23 PM | 62

The one that posted several hundred very boring words telling us how he likes to preen himself in front of the mirror while contemplating his own unparralleled magnificence when it comes to thinking for himself

Posted by: LolWut? | May 24, 2014 9:04:04 PM | 66

Amazing how much weight is accorded the pontifications of the MSM's goto neocon nomenklatura's remarks - the Perles, Kagans, Nulands etc etc.
Any guesses as to how correct they have ever been? When the grunts in USA wake up (and that right soon ) reckoning will most likely follow...

Posted by: Cortes | May 24, 2014 9:13:49 PM | 67

Not really that amazing when you consider who owns the MSM.

Posted by: LolWut? | May 24, 2014 9:14:47 PM | 68

"That's all fine, expect for the last paragraph, which is totally wrong:"

Really? Not so.

In essence, ideologically, there is no difference between Moscow and Washington. The difference is in magnitude of available power and the present influence in world affairs. Both are realpolitik driven and expansionists - deeply oligarchical and ultra-nationalistic.

Sadly, this is not the case only with Russia. It is also the case with China, India, Brazil, S. Africa, Iran, etc.

Posted by: neretva'43 | May 24, 2014 9:17:51 PM | 69

The question is why? Why do countries such as China, Brazil and Iran, which have been subjected to economic and geopolitical bullying by the US, refrain from unambiguously stating that the acting regime in Ukraine was brought to power by the United States and its European allies, and has therefore no legitimacy to rule, or hold elections?

The answer, in a nutshell, is class: in dealing with the imperial polices of Western powers, these countries (like Russia itself) are hamstrung by their own oligarchs. Like Russian oligarchs, the financial elites in these countries have closer affinity with their class counterparts in the West than with their fellow citizens at home. To these folks, issues such as national sovereignty and social justice are secondary to “peaceful” co-existence in a neoliberal world order led by the US. Consciously or instinctively, they perceive cross-border alliances (or hostilities) more as inter-class than international.

ISMAEL HOSSEIN-ZADEH
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/05/16/putin-blinks-in-ukraine-standoff-with-the-us/

Posted by: neretva'43 | May 24, 2014 9:21:41 PM | 70

@scalawag #53:

Very nice documentary. All Wikipedia editors who work on articles about the Ukraine crisis should read it lol.

I have three main responses:

1. It's very hard to see how southeast Ukraine can remain part of the experimental Ukraine state, after all that has happened. Clearly, the project to create a Ukrainian state has failed.

2. I never watch Obama, so I had forgotten what he is like when he talks. He acts like a person who has still not gotten over selling his sole to the devil, and the fact that he is going to spend eternity in hell constantly hangs over him. (Sorry to sound like someone from the Saker.)

3. I would like to get my hands on that trance song about Putin.

Posted by: Demian | May 24, 2014 9:48:29 PM | 71

Demian | May 24, 2014 9:48:29 PM | 71
Ну, например:
Ехал Путин через реку,
Видит Путин — в реке Путин,
Сунул Путин Путин в Путин
Путин Путин Путин Путин

Posted by: VRainov | May 24, 2014 10:11:40 PM | 72

Posted by: svd | May 24, 2014 4:31:28 PM | 32

ANNA says what happened.

США агентству ANNA-news: «Ваш аккаунт (newsanna на YouTube) отключен навсегда»

Yandex translation.

"The U.S. Agency ANNA-news: "Your account (newsanna on YouTube) disabled forever"

"On the evening of may 24, 2014, for 10 hours before illegitimate elections of the President of Ukraine, the American Directorate YouTube without warning "disabled forever" was created three years ago the account newsanna information Agency "Anna-news", destroying all our original video and a list of over one hundred thousand real subscribers. Half an hour before this unprecedented act Directorate was removed movie Slavyansk. Night. Shell hit people / Slavyansk. Night. A shell hit the people" with the wording "members of the YouTube community noted one of your videos as inappropriate. Your account got one warning in connection with the violation of community guidelines. A warning will be valid for six months."

We fully agree that beat from the guns peaceful sleeping residents Slavyansk - is unacceptable. This is fascism, what is said in the movie "night of shelling Slavyansk fascist junta".
An unprecedented event in the journalistic community, since by the time of the destruction of the channel, our international information Agency, the third year being the recognized leader on the front subject, held at the official ratings first place also in category "Power", 4-th category "State and Society", honorary 44-th place among all 5 thousand Russian-speaking world news media and 126-th place among all 170 thousand major global Russian-speaking Internet resources. Only in the YouTube audience of subscribers has exceeded 100 thousand people. Viral distribution network has provided a multi-million dollar views of our materials.
But the injury and subsequent murder by fascist junta Italian journalist Andrea Rochelle and his interpreter Andrei Mironov, whose voices are heard at the most scandalous record of someone from the powerful forced to push the decision to destroy our channel scheme "ends in the water."
As already wrote my colleagues, this is not the first attempt of the officials of the USA and Ukraine to prevent our work due to objective coverage of the Ukrainian events.
Counting on the support of colleagues. Cm. our materials in: yandex http://video.yandex.ru/users/anna-news-agency/ on Youtube anna.news.agency."

Translation sketchy - sorry. The video is an audio recording of the mortar strike that killed 2 foreign journalists and wounded several other people, including another journalist saturday in Slavyansk. Youtube killed ANNA's account 1/2 hour after deleting that video of the mortar attack. I hope ANNA maintained their own archive of their work that they can reupload to another site, and that they do this. And not rely upon another youtube account. Youtube is fucked up the ass, the fascists there have deleted videos and accounts often that exposed Israeli atrocities and criminality and critical material of American and Euro fascism, criminality and atrocities. People use the scum because of their audience reach, but they constantly risk losing it all because of the censorship.

I've been saying this for years, don't rely upon those disgusting sods. Use other venues. Both Dailymotion and Vimeo in the west are less censored by Israeli and American fascists, and Vimeo has better quality. All of the major Russian sites are better and less censored. If one feels they must use youtube, use it as a secondary, expendable site.

Posted by: scalawag | May 24, 2014 10:13:09 PM | 73

Oh hear we go again - the usual pack of racist trash are back hijacking the place and spewing their racist trash about how it's all the fault of Jews.

Dubhaltach

Posted by: Dubhaltach | May 24, 2014 10:18:02 PM | 74

@VRainov #72:

No, it's this: Такого как Путин

Мой парень снова влип в дурные дела Подрался, наглотался какой-то мути Он так меня достал и я его прогнала И я хочу теперь такого, как Путин

Такого как Путин полного сил
Такого как Путин чтобы не пил
Такого как Путин чтоб не обижал
Такого как Путин чтоб не убежал

Я видела его вчера в новостях
Он говорил о том, что мир на распутье
С таким как он легко и дома, и в гостях
И я хочу теперь такого, как Путин

Такого как Путин полного сил
Такого как Путин чтобы не пил
Такого как Путин чтоб не обижал
Такого как Путин чтоб не убежал

My boyfriend is in trouble once again:
Got in a fight, got drunk on something nasty
I've had enough and I chased him away
And now I want a man like Putin

One like Putin, full of strength
One like Putin, who won't be a drunk
One like Putin, who wouldn't hurt me
One like Putin, who won't run away!

Posted by: Demian | May 24, 2014 10:32:12 PM | 75

@ Dubhaltach

that's how the system works

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 24, 2014 10:32:26 PM | 76

Demian | May 24, 2014 10:32:12 PM | 75
That's really not bad, in a variety of ways.
How did you dig that up?

Posted by: VRainov | May 24, 2014 10:41:30 PM | 77

VRainov #77:

I just googled the refrain from the song. The song is used at the end of the GRTV video, for a Putin montage.

Posted by: Demian | May 24, 2014 10:47:34 PM | 78

The recent censorship in the western media goes beyond youtube:

Псаки: говорит и показывает Госдеп

Partial Yandex translation.

"Psaki: speaks and shows the state Department"

"Unforgettable Jennifer Psaki in recent days again pleased the public with their original statements. For example, insolently saying that captured by the Germans Kiev junta TV journalists Life News carried in the trunk of a car MANPADS. This time the speaker of the state Department lucky. At a press conference was not corrosive journalist who'd asked what MANPADS. Otherwise repeated history from the "election roundabouts".

Laughter with laughter, but the statements of the representatives of the USA clearly show that official Washington does not intend to abandon the anti-Russian hysteria and pressure. As stated by the same Psaki, signing a gas contract between Russia and China will not affect the U.S. strategy in terms of putting pressure on Russia. Does not stop the White house even what he gradually finds himself isolated and alone, losing allies are ready to bring their economic interests in the sacrifice of geopolitical ambitions of the USA.

Anti-Russian hysteria, the policy of double standards and an outright lie cause resentment and Western media, is increasingly acting exposures imposed by their own governments propaganda. Journalists do not stop even unfolded in Europe and the USA repression against dissidents media.

After the publication of the fact that journalists The New York Times found no evidence of Russian involvement in the events in Slavyansk, was fired its chief editor Jill Abramson.

The same fate befell the chief editor of the French newspaper Le Monde Natalie Nougayrede and broadcaster Finnish TV station Jari Sarasua, talk show which was closed because of an interview with a famous Finnish defender Johan Beckman about the situation in Ukraine.

German journalists held a mass rally claiming harassment from the authorities, not giving them the opportunity to tell the truth about the Nazis in Ukraine and the mass murder of citizens in Odessa."

The gist is despite that some western governments and media are taking a less hostile attitude, the hardcore fascists in the western establishment are pressing full steam ahead to mess up the Ukraine and with their "great game" inspired assault on Russia (if one can use a term like inspire to describe the limited thinking processes of those in this Aryan knuckledragger/Stern Gang goatfucker alliance of gangsters, to put it graphically).

Posted by: scalawag | May 24, 2014 10:48:28 PM | 79

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 24, 2014 10:32:26 PM | 76

The whole point of the anti-zionist-zionist's hasbara is to derail the discussion into the usual zionist smearfest and feces sling-a-thon. Don't encourage the the thing. Ignore it.

Posted by: scalawag | May 24, 2014 11:06:41 PM | 80

oh, it gets tiresome, all right... but maybe there are some people who don't understand yet how it works...

you gotta have some sypmathy for people who've been caught up in their own fairyy tales... people who seem to have some deep need to be persecuted...

...on the theory, i guess, that persecution validates their traditions, philsophy and history...

doesnt seem quite sane, though

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 24, 2014 11:08:55 PM | 81

Dubhaltach, I take it that you yourself are Jewish. Your name looks gaelic, of course, but that's unimportant. Now, you seem to have over reacted to one comment by Neretva, which perhaps contains needless provocations, but the article it cites simply says this:

Forbes lists Petro Poroshenko as the 130th richest Jew in the world, with $1.6b. The would-be President of Ukraine Poroshenko was born Waltzman. Poroshenko is his mother’s name, she was also a Jew.

Here he is on Forbes, at #1333 with $1.3b.
http://www.forbes.com/profile/petro-poroshenko/
Forbes does offer a separate Rich Jews list. I haven't seen it. However, Cnaan Lipshiz of JTA offers this as of friday, this week:
According to the popular Russian television channel Russia-1, Poroshenko’s father was a Jew named Alexei Valtsman from the Odessa region who in 1956 took on the last name of his wife, Yevgenya Poroshenko. Poroshenko’s media team did not reply to JTA requests for comment, but they are not indifferent about the subject. Last year, Poroshenko’s spokeswoman asked Forbes Israel to remove her boss’ name from a list of the world’s richest Jews, a magazine source confirmed. Moshe Azman, a chief rabbi of Ukraine, said he asked Poroshenko directly about the rumors. “He told me he wasn’t Jewish,” Azman said.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 24, 2014 11:12:17 PM | 82

"What do William Kristol, Norman Podhoretz, Elliot Abrams, and Robert Kagan have in common? Yes, they are all die-hard hawks who have gained control of U.S. foreign policy since the 9/11 attacks. But they are also part of one big neoconservative family -- an extended clan of spouses, children, and friends who have known each other for generations

"Though she doesn't focus much on foreign-policy issues, Lynne Cheney also hangs her hat at AEI. Her husband Dick Cheney recently chose Victoria Nuland to become his next deputy national security adviser. Nuland, as it turns out, is married to Robert Kagan, Bill Kristol's main comrade-in-arms and the co-founder of PNAC.

all in the neocon family, alternet, by jim lobe, a jewish american
http://www.alternet.org/story/15481/all_in_the_neocon_family

*shrug*

.

"In the course of the past year, a new belief has emerged in the town: the belief in war against Iraq. That ardent faith was disseminated by a small group of 25 or 30 neoconservatives, almost all of them Jewish, almost all of them intellectuals (a partial list: Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, William Kristol, Eliot Abrams, Charles Krauthammer), people who are mutual friends and cultivate one another and are convinced that political ideas are a major driving force of history. They believe that the right political idea entails a fusion of morality and force, human rights and grit.

white man's burden, haaretz
http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/white-man-s-burden-1.14110

*doubleshrug*

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 24, 2014 11:22:36 PM | 83

Flicker, you seem to specialise in extremely old information, which I actually believe most of us already know. You may not have noticed, but we are trying to develop new information here, not just regurgitate the old for its rhetorical effect. I wanted to say this to you yesterday, but I was too busy.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 24, 2014 11:26:47 PM | 84

What does this sound like?

Ukrainian court rules to release a detained Russian journalist after receipt of $13,000

"Ukraine has started demanding money for the release of detained Russian journalists. A court in the city of Dnepropetrovsk ruled to release Stepan Chirich, a producer of Russia’s NTV television channel, as soon as the Russian side had agreed to pay 150,000 hryvnias (about 13,000 USD) for his release, Russia 24 TV news channel reported on Saturday.

Ukraine’s Security Service rudely detained Chirich in the Pervomaisk district of the Dnepropetrovsk region on April 23. The journalist who was shooting a TV spot with the help of video camera glasses was beaten up during the detention.

Chirich’s whereabouts were unknown for the next few days. Later, it turned out that criminal proceedings had been initiated against him for allegedly using a “special device”.

Video camera glasses are used worldwide and are available at any shop selling digital gadgets. The glasses are very popular with users and fans of Internet social networks."

I'm sure there are more than a few Palestinians who could tell you what it sounds like. Along with more than a few darker-skinned people in America in such bastions of freedom and democracy such as New York, Chicago and Miami.

Posted by: scalawag | May 24, 2014 11:29:28 PM | 85

@ rowan

jere's the correct url to that haaretz piece "white man's burden"

http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/white-man-s-burden-1.14110

.
everything makes more sense if you understand the background...

we got to hope that people are waking up, and need that background to make the pieces fit

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 24, 2014 11:36:02 PM | 86

We already know the background, is what I'm telling you.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 24, 2014 11:58:42 PM | 87


well, dont you hope new people are becoming aware all the time, and they neeed the background?

.


more gackground...

zionist jews were used by the brits to expand their foothold in the middle east as the brit navy transitioned from coal to oil

zionism had been around for quite a while before that, but didnt get any traction until the brits needed oil
.

we dont know if these neocon jews were put up to this PNAC boondoggle, or if it was their own idea.

.
the only way to resolve the uncertainty is to insist on justice... we got tons of goy neocons, and they should be treated exactly the same as the jewish neocons

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 25, 2014 12:03:02 AM | 88

the sequence is kinda interesting...

.

1908... brits discover oil in iran

1913... brits' coal production peaks and the admiralty is beginning to switch to oil, anyhow, the royal navy being the enforcement arm of the brit empire... churchill is a bobbyist for an oil comapny

1914 - 1918... ottoman empire and germany are demolished in WW I, thus eliminating rivals for access to middle east oil

1918... brits send a letter to rothschild in support of a "jewish homeland" in palestine... the "balfour declaration"

1922... the british mandate for palestine is established... and. gangs of zionist terrorists, led by poles, terrorize everybody from brits to palestinians to UN observers

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 25, 2014 12:07:58 AM | 89

well, fill the thread with ancient history if you must, I can't stop you. But you will I hope forgive the rest of us if we ignore you and concentrate on what is actually happening right now, which includes the devastation of Slavyansk by artillery, we hope not rockets, which are worse.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 25, 2014 12:12:11 AM | 90

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 25, 2014 12:07:58 AM | 89

"1913... brits' coal production peaks and the admiralty is beginning to switch to oil, anyhow, the royal navy being the enforcement arm of the brit empire... churchill is a bobbyist for an oil comapny"

They began switching to oil at least 10 years sooner than that, along with many other naval powers seeking to save weight on ship designs.

Posted by: scalawag | May 25, 2014 12:16:05 AM | 91

Speaking of censorship, looks like I've been deleted from the Guardian: https://id.theguardian.com/profile/fairleft

Posted by: fairleft | May 25, 2014 12:16:50 AM | 92

i'm operating on the assumption that "the rest of us" dont know the background...

the number of visits to this site has coulbed in the last few months... i'm assuming that there are new peaople here that dont know everything, especially in the US

you got to admit... if anyone needs to be educated, it's the US public

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 25, 2014 12:20:36 AM | 93

@fairleft #92:

Why does that not come as a surprise? British media are more servile to the Empire than the Empire's own media. At least, that's been my impression since the Ukraine crisis started.

And they don't even give you some kind of explanation?

Posted by: Demian | May 25, 2014 12:32:17 AM | 94

Posted by: Demian | May 24, 2014 7:11:16 PM | 59

I think they and Russia are trying to keep a distance, so Russia can be mediator.

It is obvious that Russia keeps deniability about supporting them. The interesting thing is that Western media does not accuse Russia openly, maybe because they don't want to talk too much about it being a proxy conflict.

It is also obvious that everybody thinks about a "Polish partition" of Ukraine - this from November last year - Yanukovich still in power, Ukraine still united, Kwasnieski named as Polish EU envoy in the article, since January under contract of Burisma

Nearly a century later, Ukraine finds itself again positioned between a resurgent Russia and Poland, which has spearheaded the EU's Eastern Partnership initiative.

With all eyes on Kyiv and whether it would clear obstacles to signing a long-negotiated Association Agreement at the Eastern Partnership summit in Vilnius later this month or align itself with Russia's nascent Eurasian Union project, a Ukrainian government decree on November 21 said the EU process was halted in order to fully analyze the impact of such an agreement on industrial production and trade with Russia.

So Ukraine has put off its EU accord for a year or more. The next Eastern Partnership summit is set for Riga in 2015. As Mark Twain quipped, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."

This solution blocked for Ukrainians to die because some people think they can get all of Ukraine and/or make Russia bleed.

Posted by: somebody | May 25, 2014 12:46:13 AM | 95

Bit of information from German media

Translation of the last paragraph - the Ukrainian interior ministry admitted that 17000 security personnel in Donetsk and Luhansk have joined the separatists or refuse to serve the government.

Posted by: somebody | May 25, 2014 12:55:42 AM | 96

And now Kyiv Post admits that the population of Luhansk including the police is fully anti-Kiev.

Posted by: somebody | May 25, 2014 1:03:48 AM | 97

@somebody #95:

This solution blocked for Ukrainians to die because some people think they can get all of Ukraine and/or make Russia bleed.

I've come to the conclusion that being obsessed with breaking Russia is part of the Atlanticist DNA, and EU officialdom has become infected with that DNA (through some kind of sociocultural retrovirus). (I have learned from commentators on this blog that England has hated Russia for much longer than it has hated Germany.)

I would love to know what kind of confidential communications the leaders of the fledgeling state Novorossia have with mother Russia. :-)

Posted by: Demian | May 25, 2014 1:13:24 AM | 98

Whilst the New York Times/Atlantic Coucil sees something completely different.

Cognitive dissonance, partisan blindness, disinformation ... whatever

With the push for secession now stalling, anti-Russian sentiment on the rise in southern and eastern Ukraine, and Ukrainian patriotism surging throughout most of the country, Mr. Putin has begun to distance himself from the separatists. He has not officially acknowledged the results of the May 11 referendums, and he has suggested that Sunday’s presidential election could help stabilize Ukraine. His ultimate objective remains murky, but for now he seems to be backing off.

Several government ministers and political leaders I met in Kiev over the past week expressed cautious optimism at the pushback from the Ukrainian people. “I think this will end up all right,” one minister said.

These officials and Western diplomats said the Russian government was about to significantly cut the price of the gas it sells to Ukraine. A back-channel dialogue between Moscow and Kiev has begun. On May 17, Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk of Ukraine told me and a small group of Western writers and academics that he had recently met a leading envoy from the Kremlin and believed Mr. Putin was looking for an “exit ramp” away from violent conflict.

The way out may involve some of Ukraine’s oligarchs, who want more trade with Europe and North America, but also have significant business interests in the Russian market. Rinat Akhmetov — the richest man in Ukraine, a onetime ally of the deposed President Viktor Yanukovych and a mainstay of the political scene in the Donbass region — has taken a stand against the separatists. This week he denounced the agents of the Donetsk People’s Republic as armed thugs. He has organized the steelworkers and coal miners in his employ into civilian patrols throughout the Donetsk region. He has called for strikes to protest any further lawlessness. Such positioning by the oligarchs will be crucial to the stability of the country.

German media on the disinformation

So in this case, the West's interest is to keep Ukraine intact, as business interest is in Eastern Ukraine. But all the players in Ukraine clearly want the separation.

Posted by: somebody | May 25, 2014 1:19:00 AM | 99

@60 lolwut? - i tend to share your analysis.. b's is more positive and soothing, but ultimately ukraine will have a much harder time getting on solid ground then it would have before the neocon intervention.. things will probably putter on into the winter when the hard cold reality of the situation is more clearly felt..

@82 rowan berkeley. thanks for that info. i was unaware of all that.

Posted by: james | May 25, 2014 1:21:50 AM | 100

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