Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 22, 2014

Ukraine: Army Soldiers Killed In Friendly Fire Incident?

Something weird happened in east Ukraine today. Allegedly some insurgents from the "Gorlovka" group attacked a Ukrainian military checkpoint near the town Volnovakha in Donetsk oblast. Some 13 soldiers were killed, over 30 wounded and several armored personal carriers were destroyed (vid). There are no reports yet of wounded or killed insurgents.

It does not sound plausible to me that a group of rag tag insurgents only recently formed and without much fighting experience attacks a platoon plus size military unit and destroys it completely.

There is also video that shows two Ukrainian MI24-Hind helicopter gunships making several heavy bomb runs in the area of the incident. The Guardian's Shaun Walker confirmed that Ukrainian helicopters were involved. One explosion in the video seems to be followed by heavy secondary ones which is typically the case when an armed vehicle with lots of ammunition on board gets hit.

Did those helicopter pilots hit the Ukrainian military unit? That would explain the high casualty rate and rather heavy damage.

Was the checkpoint attacked before the helicopters destroyed it? By whom?

Posted by b on May 22, 2014 at 11:48 AM | Permalink

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Petri Krohn made this comment in another thread. I copy it here for relevance:

Unknown gunmen attack a National Guard base near Volnovakha in the Donetsk Oblast / People's Republic and kill some 20 Ukrainians. Initial sources claimed the attackers were from the People's Militias, but now Russian media is spinning the story: the attackers were paid by Kolomoyskyi.

I posted this summary on Facebook. The Donbass People's Militia destroyed a National Guard unit in a early morning attack. Reports on the number of dead vary from 15 to 30. Russkaya Vesna cites local doctors and says 30 "visitors" were killed and another 35 people were hospitalized.
http://rusvesna.su/news/1400743434

Junta coordinator Dmitry Tymchuk says on his Facebook page that 8 were killed and 18 wounded. https://www.facebook.com/dmitry.tymchuk/posts/501449049983755 (Dmitry Tymchuk flew Ukrainian Mi-24 attack helicopters in Congo for the UN.)

The NazGuard base with recruits of the 51st volunteer brigade was located in the "Forrest Park" eco hotel between Volodymyrivka and Volnovakha near the H-20 road connecting Donetsk to Mariupol. http://www.forestpark.ua/ https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Владимировка_(Волновахский_район)

The 30 militiamen of the People's Militia arrived in 2 Jeeps and lightly armored "collector vans" with markings of Privat Bank. These were possible confiscated from junta warlord, oligarch and Pravy Sector financier Ihor Kolomoyskyi in Gorlovka on April 28th.
http://gorlovka.ua/News/Article/6398 http://therussiantimes.com/news/10580.html

The NazGuard had 3 BMP tanks. All were destroyed in the attack. Police later arrived at the scene but they did not interfere with the military operation. Other sources:
http://news.liga.net/news/politics/1836433-dod_donetskom_ukrainskikh_voennykh_obstrelyali_iz_granatometov_i_pzrk.htm
http://donbass.ua/news/region/2014/05/22/vooruzhjonnye-respublikancy-rasstreljali-ukrainskih-soldat.html
http://www.ostro.org/general/society/news/445176/
http://112.ua/avarii-chp/pod-volnovahoy-v-nochnyh-boyah-pogibli-8-ukrainskih-silovikov-raneny-18-tymchuk-65474.html
http://society.lb.ua/accidents/2014/05/22/267282_boeviki_dnr_rasstrelyali_ukrainskih.html http://www.ostro.org/general/society/news/445186/

I later added this update: UPDATE: L!FE News has a different spin to the story: The attackers were not militiamen but "punishers" working for Kolomoyskyi. Allegedly the base was attacked because the solders had refused to "crush the resistance" and to fire on civilians.
http://lifenews.ru/news/133652
http://lifenews.ru/news/133637
http://lifenews.ru/news/133647

Posted by: b | May 22, 2014 11:55:10 AM | 1

This does smell funny. The fact that Yatsenyuk immediately called for an emergency UNSC meeting feels orchestrated. The main story in the press immediately preceding this one was how the opposition was in such disarray. One story had a branch of the People's Republic of Donetsk from the city of Horlivka traveling to Donetsk proper to subdue an undisciplined group of pro-federalization fighters.

A lot of this seems like psyops prior to Sunday's election.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | May 22, 2014 11:58:37 AM | 2

Губарев: Боевики хунты расстреляли украинских военных в Донецкой области

Partial Yandex translation.

"Gubarev: Militants junta shot of the Ukrainian military in the Donetsk region"

The militants "Right sector" and the National guard of Ukraine shot of the Ukrainian military, who refused to carry out a punitive operation against peaceful citizens, said the "people's Governor" of the Donetsk region Pavel Gubarev.

On Thursday, he made a video message in which has informed, that yesterday in the village of grace Volnovakha district of Donetsk oblast profit reservists from Vinnitsa region. Their "trained" to fight with the Russian saboteurs, said Gubarev, however, not finding any, unit commander asked permission to return subordinate to the place of deployment.

"Commander of the military unit tried to contact the Ministry of defence, but failed. Then he contacted the leadership of the "anti-terrorist operation" and said that there are no Russian saboteurs and what you need to return to the location of the part. What was given him the answer: "That's not your business!", - said Gubarev.

After about 5 a.m. on Thursday at the check-point of this division was attacked by "the Right sector" and nazvanii, says Gubarev. According to him, the militants arrived in an armored bus PrivatBank and two jeeps.

"The checkpoint was killed, destroyed, - said Gubarev. Soldiers opened fire in response. "Right sector" and nazvanii were 200 (killed) and 300 (wounded). All the losses they (the attackers) were put into the cars and started to retreat. The bus then he stopped, he was shot, he stopped the movement. The bus remained as proof that the battalions Kolomoisky, the national guard under, the Punisher war already with the Ukrainian army reservists, who did not want to shoot at my people."

"In the morning flew three helicopters Kiev junta, destroyed the bus and started to fire on the soldiers", - continued Gubarev. According to him, among the Ukrainian military, under attack, eight people were killed and about 20 wounded. Gubarev recalled that a similar case occurred in Mariupol, where troops opened fire on the local police, who refused to disperse peaceful meeting.

Gubarev called soldiers of the Ukrainian army "not to obey criminal orders" and "move to the side of the people."

Posted by: scalawag | May 22, 2014 12:08:17 PM | 3

Cloudflare is blocking access to http://rusvesna.su/

Posted by: scalawag | May 22, 2014 12:24:27 PM | 4

Nop scalawag, I am getting indications that rusvesna is being DDoS'd by someone, just like typepad was a few days ago. As to the incident, well captured, that yandex translation of Vz.ru is great until we get to the numbers. I cannot buy this:

"Right sector" and nazvanii were 200 (killed) and 300 (wounded)

But that seems to be what the original says:
У «Правого сектора» и Нацгвардии были «200-е» (убитые) и «300-е» (раненые).

That's just stupid. An order of magnitude down and I could maybe buy it, but even then, only with misgivings. Could we, just for a start, define "nazvanii" please?

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 22, 2014 1:22:37 PM | 5

Actually looking at the word, I would guess it means "National Guard". Now as I understand it, the "National Guard" is composed of Right Sector plus various foreign imports. Obviously, regular troops wouldn't be in it, by definition. But anyway, these definitions don't make much sense. If Right Sector constitute the majority of the National Guard, why are they so often listed separately, as in "Right Sector and nazvanii"? This is all before we even get to the numbers, which as I say seem exaggerated by a factor of at least 10. So how much use is this gibberish?

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 22, 2014 1:25:44 PM | 6

A story on RT clears things up somewhat. Apparently, the dead soldiers were rookies encamped near the checkpoint when they were attacked as follows:

Eyewitnesses told Russian Chanel One that the attackers arrived in transit vans, with armored vehicles and combat helicopters providing cover for them.

The gunmen set fire to the military’s armored vehicles and began shooting at the rookie soldiers, who had their encampment near the checkpoint.

One of the shells hit an ammunition depot, which resulted in a massive explosion that saw dozens injured, Channel One reports.

The video, which allegedly captures the events in Blagodatnoe, emerged on the internet on Thursday.

Two combat helicopters heavily, shelling an area covered by trees, and a huge explosion are seen in the footage.

/../

The Donetsk Regional Administration said that 16 soldiers died and 32 received injuries in the attack on the checkpoint.

The self-defense forces of the People Republic of Donetsk said that the attack on the army’s checkpoint was a reprisal raid by the radicals.

“The Blagodatnoe residents came out to defend their homes. The soldiers were ordered to crush the resistance. But they refused to shoot at people, and were, eventually, punished for that,” the source in the self-defense forces told LifeNews.

The witnesses told the channel that the transit vans, which the attackers used for transportation, belonged to the Privat-Bank, which is owned by oligarch Igor Kolomoisky. '16 Ukraine soldiers killed in deadly Donetsk region checkpoint attack', RT 22 May 2014

Posted by: William Bowles | May 22, 2014 1:45:14 PM | 7

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 22, 2014 1:22:37 PM | 5

Another site (Politnavigator) has essentially the same story. In the translation from there, the 200 and 300 numbers appear to be the estimated number of attackers, or, since a bus and a couple of jeeps cant carry 500 troops, maybe it's unit id numbers? Here:

"У «Правого сектора» и Нацгвардии были 200-тые и 300-тые. Они понесли потери."

"Right sector" and nazvanii were 200-tide and 300-tide. They suffered losses."

Nazvanii is a name for the Ukrainian national guard.

Posted by: scalawag | May 22, 2014 1:47:05 PM | 8

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 22, 2014 1:25:44 PM | 6

Because when the National Guard was announced, the Right Sector refused to join, and People are using the words "the Right Sector" for all the right wing militias, I guess.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/21/world/europe/ukraine-sets-deadline-for-militias-to-surrender-illegal-guns.html?_r=1

Ukraine Sets Deadline for Militias to Surrender Illegal Guns
NYT, By ANDREW E. KRAMER, MARCH 20, 2014


The interim government is now seeking to integrate the loosely organized militias into a newly formed national guard, though several hard-line groups, including Right Sector, have declined to join.


I don't know the exact relationship between the Right Sector and the National Guard right now. I am assuming that all those new battalions with regional names such as Kiev-1, Donbass-1 are the Right Sector formations.


http://rt.com/news/154452-right-sector-yarosh-unit/

Yarosh, placed by Russia on an international most wanted terrorist list, also announced that he started forming a special squad of fighters called “Donbass.”

“We coordinate all of our actions with the leadership of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine, the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Security service of Ukraine,” Yarosh said.

Local media reports that the unit will comprise about 800 fighters. Any military trained adults could volunteer to join the unit, as long as they meet the requirements.

The move follows a similar announcement in Dnepropetrovsk region, whose Kiev-appointed governor and oligarch Igor Kolomoysky recently formed a special battalion “Dnepr” formed of “local patriots of Ukraine.”

Both battalions are part of the special force which is being formed to stabilize and take the situation under control in the eastern and southern parts of Ukraine, as announced earlier by Ukraine’s coup-installed millionaire turned Interior minister Arsen Avakov.

“The new structure of special divisions of the Ministry of Internal Affairs is the answer to saboteurs, ‘green little men’ and to the other gangs tasked with attacking statehood and integrity of Ukraine,” Avakov said earlier in April, stating his ministry was ready to employ and legalize as many as 12,000 volunteers across the country.


Posted by: PuppetMaster | May 22, 2014 1:50:16 PM | 9

In contrast, the BBC story on the same incident opens as f0llows:

A dawn attack on a checkpoint in eastern Ukraine has left at least 14 soldiers dead, in the worst loss of life for government forces to date.

Heavily armed militants attacked the checkpoint in the Volnovakha area, in one of four attacks reported overnight in eastern Ukraine.

It is unclear who attacked the checkpoint, with one Ukrainian officer telling the BBC it was not separatists.

The attacks come just three days before Ukraine's presidential election.

/../

Residents told AP the attackers had used an armoured bank lorry which the unsuspecting Ukrainian soldiers had waved through the checkpoint. The attackers then reportedly shot down the soldiers at point-blank range.

BBC journalists who reached the scene were not allowed to film by Ukrainian soldiers. The BBC's Olga Ivshina found 27 wounded survivors at the central hospital in Volnovakha.

Local people said fighting had erupted at 05:00 local time (02:00 GMT). They said they had heard explosions and gunfire, and some spoke of seeing many wounded later.

The defence ministry blamed the latest attack on "terrorists" - the term commonly used by Ukrainian officials for armed pro-Russian separatists in Donetsk and the neighbouring Luhansk region.
Rebel claim

Speaking on condition of anonymity, an army major who spoke to the survivors of the attack told our correspondent he was sure that the attackers were not Donetsk separatists but "mercenaries". 'Ukraine crisis: Donetsk sees deadliest attack on troops', BBC News Website, 22 May 2014

Quite a contrast! The BBC stretches the language to breaking point in order not to identify the junta and its fascist hitmen.

Goebbels lives and he's taken up residence at the BBC!

Posted by: William Bowles | May 22, 2014 1:52:23 PM | 10

In contrast, the BBC story on the same incident opens as f0llows:

A dawn attack on a checkpoint in eastern Ukraine has left at least 14 soldiers dead, in the worst loss of life for government forces to date.

Heavily armed militants attacked the checkpoint in the Volnovakha area, in one of four attacks reported overnight in eastern Ukraine.

It is unclear who attacked the checkpoint, with one Ukrainian officer telling the BBC it was not separatists.

The attacks come just three days before Ukraine's presidential election.

/../

Residents told AP the attackers had used an armoured bank lorry which the unsuspecting Ukrainian soldiers had waved through the checkpoint. The attackers then reportedly shot down the soldiers at point-blank range.

BBC journalists who reached the scene were not allowed to film by Ukrainian soldiers. The BBC's Olga Ivshina found 27 wounded survivors at the central hospital in Volnovakha.

Local people said fighting had erupted at 05:00 local time (02:00 GMT). They said they had heard explosions and gunfire, and some spoke of seeing many wounded later.

The defence ministry blamed the latest attack on "terrorists" - the term commonly used by Ukrainian officials for armed pro-Russian separatists in Donetsk and the neighbouring Luhansk region.
Rebel claim

Speaking on condition of anonymity, an army major who spoke to the survivors of the attack told our correspondent he was sure that the attackers were not Donetsk separatists but "mercenaries". 'Ukraine crisis: Donetsk sees deadliest attack on troops', BBC News Website, 22 May 2014

Quite a contrast! The BBC stretches the language to breaking point in order not to identify the junta and its fascist hitmen.

Goebbels lives and he's taken up residence at the BBC!

Posted by: William Bowles | May 22, 2014 1:52:23 PM | 11

Friendly fire b? I think not...

Posted by: William Bowles | May 22, 2014 1:55:15 PM | 12

In this article at Lifenews the commander of the Ukrainian unit that was attacked says he thinks the attackers were mercs.

Командир украинской бригады: Нападавшие были проплачены

Yandex translation.

"The commander of the Ukrainian brigade: the Attackers had been paid for"

"The representative of the commander of troops attacked in the village of Grace, I am sure that was used against them mercenaries.

According to one of the officers commanding personnel of the 51st brigade of the Ukrainian armed forces, armed men arrived on may 22 on multiple machines and opened fire without warning. In the result of the attack killed 15 Ukrainian soldiers. At least 35 people were wounded.

These were mercenaries, trained, "thrashed" they professionally, " says the commander attacked the 51st brigade. - Our opened fire in response. One car was burned. They eventually shot three infantry combat vehicles and two sanitary tablets, UAZ. According to witnesses, gathered in a bunch of guys that made those who could raise the arms over the head.

According to the Ukrainian military, the soldiers were taken by surprise, but managed to fight back:

- Our managed to open fire in response. One car was burned. The attackers fired from grenade launchers and machine guns. They were well prepared for the attack on the checkpoint. One hundred percent of the paid someone were. Anyone, I don't know.

According to local residents, witnesses of the attack, unknown, who arrived at the cash machines of "Privat" and two jeeps opened fire on the Ukrainian military, previously refused to fire on civilians.

- Residents of Grace stood up to defend their homes. Ukrainian soldiers are ordered to suppress resistance. They refused to shoot at people, and eventually they were punished, " said a source in the headquarters of self-defense.

According to the interlocutor, it was a retaliatory operation by the order of the oligarch Ihor Kolomoisky - owner of PrivatBank, known for the fact that he financed the protests on the square, and pay remuneration to the fighters of the "Right sector".

The Ukrainian media, citing the Kyiv authorities report that the fire on the soldiers at the checkpoint in the Fertile opened militias."

Posted by: scalawag | May 22, 2014 1:56:29 PM | 13

Guardian has "" In the town of Horlivka, a rebel commander claimed responsibility for the raid and produced an array of weapons he said had been seized.

"We destroyed a checkpoint of the fascist Ukrainian army deployed on the land of the Donetsk Republic," said the commander, who wore a balaclava and identified himself by his nom de guerre, Bes – Russian for demon.""

Elswhere,it is being attributed as a revenge attack for the attack/deaths in Odessa ...

The attacks are -- but of course -- being blamed on in the headlines of most reports as "separatists" and "pro-Russian" and "separarist pro-Russians" -- rather than anti-Kiev anti-putsch ...

I'm doubtful Kolomoyskyi even remotely "counts" as pro-russian or separatist -- he, an insider, is at this point, "anti-Kiev" -- but I'm doubtful enough to finance/man an attack on the Kiev's government army, the one he feels is not responding forcefully enough. I think Kolomoyskyi may make a "convenient" target but it sounds like this was a "rebel" attack that "got lucky" (or in reality unlucky) in ways that vastly inflated the death count.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | May 22, 2014 2:05:37 PM | 14

Someone called V Rainov came to me at Niqnaq, where I am trying to do my own assembly of this great story, and kindly contributed the following:

Better source: “У «Правого сектора» и Нацгвардии были 200-тые и 300-тые. “; i.e., it means “The Pravy Sektor and Natsgvardiia contained [soldiers] of the 200th and 300th [hundreds].” Editorial blooper of some kind. See here.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 22, 2014 2:22:36 PM | 15

Lets see if I got it right:

Kiev junta wanted to punish disobedient soldiers, while angered military was supposed to be directed to framed federalists, and through extension - Russia.

If that was the goal, it was executed very sloppily. Federalists dont have MI-24, and killers should have done much better job pretending to be militias, if even BBC reports Ukrainian officer words "it was not separatists."

Considering how fast it was debunked, it doesnt matter that Kiev junta (and its masters) will keep blaming federalists and Russia for it, what matters is whole Ukrainian military knows who is responsible, and this massacre will backfire Kiev badly. It was extremely stupid thing to do, if Odessa/Mariupol massacres completely alienated south-east from Kiev, then this slaughter will alienate Ukrainian army against Kiev too.

The sheer insanity of such actions can only be explained that US wants Ukraine to be in total chaos and a failed state, because everything Kiev does pushes towards it. I dont think Yats is that insane, or personally would want it to happen, therefore its US orders, I dont see any other explanation.

Posted by: Harry | May 22, 2014 2:28:08 PM | 16

Posted by: Harry | May 22, 2014 2:28:08 PM | 16

"The sheer insanity of such actions can only be explained that US wants Ukraine to be in total chaos and a failed state, because everything Kiev does pushes towards it. I dont think Yats is that insane, or personally would want it to happen, therefore its US orders, I dont see any other explanation."

My thinking as well.

Posted by: scalawag | May 22, 2014 2:32:43 PM | 17

One more detail.

If the Ukrainian military unit involved in this incident, the 51st brigade, is this one, it came from the western Ukraine. Its regular garrison is on the Polish border.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/51st_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukraine)

Posted by: PuppetMaster | May 22, 2014 2:38:41 PM | 18

an oddly nuanced report from Fox News -- oops, it's really associated press -- which says, without attribution, that the government concedes that Sunday's election cannot be held in the eastern districts.... which could easily "fit into" the designs of most "rebel" groups (at both ends of the spectrum).

Residents said attackers used an armored bank truck, which the unsuspecting Ukrainian soldiers waved through, and then mowed them down at point-blank range. Their account couldn't be independently confirmed.
A representative of the separatist Donetsk People's Republic, however, denied that its men had carried out the attack. Speaking on Russian television, Pavel Gubarev accused Ukrainian nationalists from the Right Sector group of firing on Ukrainian soldiers because they had refused to attack civilians.

The comments appeared questionable, however. Gubarev does not appear to have much influence with the armed separatist rebel group.

fox michigan/associated press: 13 Ukraine troops dead, over 30 wounded in attack.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | May 22, 2014 2:45:47 PM | 19

That rebel leader calling himself Bes (the devil) has got to be a mercenary gang leader (think Blackwater, but speaking Ukrainian), trying to play both sides at once, with media connivance.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 22, 2014 2:54:24 PM | 20

У «Правого сектора» и Нацгвардии были «200-е» (убитые) и «300-е» (раненые).

Code 200 - means a dead soldier, Code 300 - means a wounded soldier. Hence "In the National Guard there were both killed and injured".

Posted by: angdem1 | May 22, 2014 2:55:28 PM | 21

Sorry, that was a bit garbled. What I mean is (a) he is a mercenary group leader, with a fully professional team a la Blackwater, but speaking Ukrainian; (b) he was sent by Kolomoisky to wipe out the recalcitrant soldiers; (c) having done so, he did a fake presser pretending to be a "pro-Russian separatist", thus turning the whole thing into a classic black op, where you commit an atrocity against your own side and blame the enemy for it.

As for the bus, it must have contained captured and/or wounded soldiers from the troops that had been attacked by him, and the helicopters came to finish it off. It couldn't have contained his own casualties, because his attackers wouldn't really have suffered a busload full of casualties, if as I am suggesting these were a fully skilled force superior to the troops they were attacking, which evidently they were, since they very nearly wiped it out.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 22, 2014 3:02:07 PM | 22

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | May 22, 2014 2:05:37 PM | 14

Both the RT and BBC stories refer to this man:

RT: The agency reports that a group of anti-Kiev rebels in the town of Horlovka later claimed responsibility for the raid and displayed weapons, which were seized during the operation.

"We destroyed a checkpoint of the fascist Ukrainian army deployed on the land of the Donetsk Republic,'' the unit’s commander, who wore a balaclava, said.

BBC: a self-styled rebel commander in a nearby town, Horlivka, told AP that his forces had carried out the assault and had seized weapons.

"We destroyed a checkpoint of the fascist Ukrainian army deployed on the land of the Donetsk Republic,'' said the commander, who wore a balaclava and identified himself by his nom de guerre, Bess ("demon" in Russian).

I'd hazard a (not) wild guess that this was a false flag operation, but if so, it went terribly wrong. Since when do largely amateur 'separatists' attack using helicopter gunships for cover?

It stinks.

Posted by: William Bowles | May 22, 2014 3:06:06 PM | 23

Seems this is a video by one of the soldiers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQt7ukb0kmU

Posted by: ahji | May 22, 2014 3:06:14 PM | 24

I like that solution for the 200s and 300s. But I want to know what people think about Bes the devil, and about who the people were in the bus, which it seems reasonable to infer is what the helicopters came to finish off. Which side were they from, these people in the bus?

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 22, 2014 3:06:52 PM | 25

Posted by: PuppetMaster | May 22, 2014 2:38:41 PM | 18

That unit is stationed in the capital of Volhynia, which is the province where the Banderists are said to have killed 40,000 Poles during World War Two.

Posted by: lysias | May 22, 2014 3:07:49 PM | 26

Wait, so this was some sort of false flag attack by mercenaries to make the rebels look like violent extremists?

Because if it wasnt friendly fire, and it looks like it wasnt, it looks to me like this is too well organized to be the eastern federalist militias.

Posted by: Massinissa | May 22, 2014 3:09:41 PM | 27

Posted by: angdem1 | May 22, 2014 2:55:28 PM | 21

I think that means there were killed and wounded among both the National Guard and the Right Sector.

So the Right Sector was present there.

Posted by: lysias | May 22, 2014 3:10:09 PM | 28

@16

How much control of Ukraine does Yats even have? The CIA (and affiliated US intelligence agencies) might be running the entire damn nation state, or at least its military and defense capabilities, via their own assets.

Posted by: Massinissa | May 22, 2014 3:15:23 PM | 29

Yes, I generally view the National Guard and Right Sector as essentially the same thing, so I did not make the distinction. Using "200" and "300" to refer to dead/wounded is at least as old as Afghanistan (The USSR version). The terminology even made it into popular literature - hence the room for confusion among non-Russian speakers.

Posted by: angdem1 | May 22, 2014 3:16:24 PM | 30

I think this is what happened: regular ukrainian army units from the West of the country, in armoured vehicles and helicopters, gave cover for a busload of 'national guardsmen' or former right sector goons. By all accounts, the helicopters took out the soldiers' armoured vehicles and hit an ammunition dump, which exploded, killing and injuring more people and in the chaos the goons were free to murder.

Clearly, this 'Bes' character is the false flag, and his role is to set up the 'separatists' for the fall but I think it went seriously wrong, as elsewhere here, the manner of the operation is so transparent, like they think nobody's watching. No wonder they want the media out (unless its friendly).

I mean, just read the BBC's piece, but read between the lines and you see that there's not enough meat to hang the blame on the 'separatists', so it skirts around the story, simply ignoring that which doesn't fit the BBC's version of reality. It did the same with the Odessa outrage. Suddenly, the BBC gets 'objective'. You can set your clock by it.

It's all part of a psyops campaign and I'd hazard one more (not) wild guess that it's been planned by the guys out of Fort Bragg.

Posted by: William Bowles | May 22, 2014 3:21:12 PM | 31

"" Yes, I generally view the National Guard and Right Sector as essentially the same thing, so I did not make the distinction. "" -- reasonable

The story is that the government "rode to the rescue" with the helicopters, misread the situation and opened fire causing more damage ... they arrived after the first barrage.

Over at the NYT, it's appalling how many people seem to believe that "it was (covert) Russian troops" who attacked the Ukrainians ...

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | May 22, 2014 3:22:44 PM | 32

wow - in that video, the choppers are definitely attacking the attackers, whoever they are. If the choppers had wanted to finish off the troops, they could have caught them behind their truck in the middle of the open field and finished them off with one bomb. That means that all our wonderful theories are wrong, and the attackers really were bandits. If they were false flag ops, then the choppers wouldn't have bombed them. But as Strelstev has pointed out, there are criminal armed gangs all over the place, just trying to exploit the chaos. So Bes the devil may be real after all, but more of a gang leader than a disciplined resistance fighter.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 22, 2014 3:22:53 PM | 33

Apparently some of the survivors at the hospital told people that the helicopters "attacked" them ... fog of war, general chaos, it may well have seemed that way ...

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | May 22, 2014 3:31:51 PM | 34

Or finally, the Ukrainian air force may be hostile to Kolomoisky's Right Sector, to the point of catching it in the middle of a black op and attacking it. Then Kolomoisky's Right Sector boys try to continue the black op by staging the fake presser, just as if they had been successful in wiping out the troops. Who, by the way, may not have been mutinous at all, but just innocent Kiev guys awaiting instructions.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 22, 2014 3:35:38 PM | 35

I don't speak Russian but a top comment at the YouTube video says this about the guys hiding by the truck:

These are reservists called up for tour, when they refused to shoot on unarmed protesters or carry out shock ops, the Junta decided to take them out. For the first 4 minutes you can here them in disbelief as the helicopters make pass shooting up their own position, "They aren't ours, they aren't ours" then they come to the realization it's theirs and break down into praying for mercy. These are clearly marked troops, you can see how low the passes are. The locals are reporting that there was a sniper in the helicopter shooting people running. There are photos from the scene ex post facto showing bodies lying in the field, you can see here, those bodies are not yet there.

I imagine we'll see more footage of this incident come out, they are probably still picking up bodies and treating injured. I don't see how this can be portrayed as anything except execution of a brigade they feel "betrayed them" by not firing on their own citizens.

It's also being reported the citizens were in contact with these guys, most of them teen or early 20s and they had agreed that nobody was going to shoot anyone and they had been in this location for some time and were due to be decommissioned or rotated out.



I'd love to see a translation of that dialog.

Posted by: Grieved | May 22, 2014 3:38:14 PM | 36

(Not read the above comments yet, maybe duplicate=

Taken from ground level
Hind helicopter shooting (2:43) at Ukrainian troops (Flag at 6min.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnUPRIngd3g

Must have happened after initial attack:
- ambulances already there
- BMP ammunition cooking off before helos come in

Posted by: b | May 22, 2014 3:39:55 PM | 37

This is event is a perfect example of how the peons inevitably will be chasing TPTB's bullshit wagon - but never catching it - from here on out in Ukraine.

Once the major initial psyop event work is done - e.g., 9/11, Ukraine/Maidan coup, etc, - and the narrative is promulgated sufficiently in the complicit bourgeois press it takes on a life of its own and the war criminal minions can start to really lay on the nonsense while the bourgeois left etc will - once again - be sitting around trying to figure out what's really happening when it doesn't really matter as NONE of this would be happening if the first "event" hadn't taken place or at least had been immediately called out/recognized as YET ANOTHER in a long line of US intel-funded and run operations against innocent people.

Just as the acceptance of the fairy tale nonsense horseshit of 9/11 led to the de facto acceptance - hard to call "war crimes" on the entire kit and kaboodle when you have to figure out what exactly happened in each and every situation, right, guys? - of the war crimes in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria blah blah etc now that the "interim" Ukraine leadership is viewed as legitimate by at least half of the brainwashed/retarded Western world TPTB - who truly, IMO, have this "psyop/rollout" shit down to an exact science now after so many iterations - will keep any person of conscience on their back heels as they attempt to figure out what's happening daily when it's just the same song that's been playing for 50 fucking years.

What is the US trying to do here? Do they want chaos? Do they not? Who are they backing? Are they competent? Are they incompetent? etc etc etc

None of these questions matter.

In the end, we are again left guessing at the motives of a WELL-KNOWN AND PROLIFIC active murderous criminal - i.e., the US - when we should be focusing on attempting to create a narrative that can counter this murderous nonsense and make it stop.

There will be time to ask the murderous filth just exactly what they were thinking/what their motives were when they are sitting in fucking jail cells.

As TPTB have basically destroyed the existence of the alternative narrative/worldview of Marxist thought - maybe it could be resurrected on wide scale? As a subscriber, I'm not holding my breath - a new narrative must be created that makes sense of what is happening and, IMO, viewing the current U.S. War of Aggression - in all of its "forms" (i.e., Cold War, GWOT, Cold War II, etc.) - as a 50+ year long effort to subjugate the planet might be a start.

Ukraine=Syria=Libya=Iraq=Afghanistan=Honduras=Haiti=Nicaragua=El Salvador=Chile=Argentina=Vietnam etc etc etc

Interviewer: Excuse me, Mr. War Criminal, sir, but why shouldn't we view the illegal actions by the US in Ukraine exactly as the illegal actions in Vietnam or Iraq?

War Criminal: Well, Vietnam was during the Cold War and Iraq was during the GWOT. Both situations were highly complex that need to be looked at individually and in their own historical contexts..

Interviewer: But basically, in each case - and many others - the US trumped up some bullshit reason to destroy a sovereign nation, murder/maim/etc a bunch of innocent people, steal all of their shit etc etc. Does not the similarity of the commission of these crimes - that continues to this day - demonstrate that the situations are NOT that complex? That the historical/strategical contexts provided by you and your war criminal partners are simply platitudinous and quasi-legalistic window dressing that is more meant to keep you out of a tribunal dock? I mean, it might be interesting for some to know as to why a known serial killer moved to Miami to continue on his murder spree after leaving behind years of carnage in New Jersey but is that information it really relevant to society's understanding and comprehending of the significance of the crimes themselves and how said crimes should all accurately be viewed as just one long murder spree?

War Criminal: Would you like a half-off coupon for the 9/11 Museum?

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 22, 2014 3:46:42 PM | 38

The two videos are basically the same, but v=OnUPRIngd3g is 8:05 duration, whereas v=UQt7ukb0kmU is 7:15 duration.

I can only make sense of this in one way. Let me tighten up the final bolts on my theory. In that video, the choppers are definitely attacking the attackers, whoever they are. If the choppers had wanted to finish off the troops, they could have caught them behind their truck in the middle of the open field and finished them off with one bomb. That means that the attackers really were bandits. So the fellow calling himself “Bes” the devil, who gave the presser to AP claiming to be a “pro-Russian separatist” and claiming credit for the raid, must be real after all. He must have been sent by Kolomoisky to wipe out the soldiers, and having done so, to stage a fake presser pretending to be a “pro-Russian separatist,” the whole thing being a classic black op, where you commit an atrocity against your own side and blame the enemy for it. But anyway, the helicopters bombed him, they didn’t bomb the troops, who were right out in the open, so the helicopters weren’t part of any black op. The Ukrainian air force must therefore be hostile to Kolomoisky’s Right Sector, to the point of catching it in the middle of a black op and attacking it. Then Kolomoisky’s Right Sector boys try to continue the black op by staging the fake presser, just as if they had been successful in wiping out the troops. Who, by the way, may not have been mutinous at all, but just innocent Kiev guys awaiting instructions. How's that?

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 22, 2014 3:47:29 PM | 39

Video shot by locals

Posted by: somebody | May 22, 2014 3:47:38 PM | 40

Posted by: Grieved | May 22, 2014 3:38:14 PM | 36

Might be your answer.


http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/05/ukraine-sitrep-may-22th-1932-utczulu.html

Posted by: jo6pac | May 22, 2014 3:52:52 PM | 41

Posted by: Grieved | May 22, 2014 3:38:14 PM | 36

That's exactly what the original story on RT said, so it ain't new.

Posted by: William Bowles | May 22, 2014 4:02:28 PM | 42

Saker says "helicopters were seen shooting at the destroyed vehicles of the attackers in an apparent attempt to conceal their origin (Privat Bank)." But it doesn't look that way to me. I think the air force are attacking the attackers, not colluding with the in a mega black op.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 22, 2014 4:03:41 PM | 43

This most definitely was not 'Friendly Fire'. It was deliberate murder to intimidate other Ukrainian military members - obey or die. One question - were mercenaries involved particularly with the helicopters?

Posted by: Anon E Mouse | May 22, 2014 4:04:50 PM | 44

With smartphones and youtube we will get to see the Ukraine civil war up close and personal. Those who observe better and understand the language can add more. Some things are clear from the video. A Ukrainian Army road block was hit and vehicles are burning and ammunition exploding. These are rookie troops bunched together in the middle of the field hiding behind a truck; not digging foxholes or hightailing to the treeline. They are Ukraine Army helicopters. The troops saw them and didn’t hit the ground and dig desperately into the rich black soil. At the end is a Ukrainian Army radio operator who is likely calling in the helicopter strikes.

There are only three groups who would purposely attack a Ukraine Army checkpoint; the separatists, Right Sector goons or special forces (hired or Russian). If a fixed armed position is successfully wiped out by troops who pull back without leaving any casualties behind, it was not cherry home guard troops or Right Sector hooligans who did it but trained skilled Special Forces types who have done it before. Russia is very unlikely to want to heat up Eastern Ukraine so the only possibility left is a False Flag operation by western mercenaries to push the Ukraine army to do the Kiev Putsch’s dirty work. If it turns out to be Right Sector that is the end of Kiev Junta; the army will stage a coup. The attack notches up the chaos and gets the army involved.

Posted by: VietnamVet | May 22, 2014 4:05:21 PM | 45

Posted by: somebody | May 22, 2014 3:47:38 PM | 40

The problem with this video is that it shows you nothing useful at all.

Posted by: William Bowles | May 22, 2014 4:07:15 PM | 46

Ok, now I've got the sequence correct, the helis came later. Saker's piece puts all the other info from different sources, together into a single timeline:

A Ukrainian national guard unit (according to one source the 51st motorized brigade which had been hastily made up with middle-aged reservists) brought in from the city of Vinnitsa. For three days were were told to man a checkpoint, but today they were given the order to attack civilians in a nearby village. The unit refused and the commander announced that he would withdraw because "there were no terrorists here, only civilians". At around 5AM a black sedan, two jeeps and several vehicles (vans and armored) of the company Privat Bank (belongs to the Jewish oligarch Kolomoiski) carrying members of the "Donbass" and "Azov" death-squads drove to the checkpoint and opened fire with everything they had. The soldiers fired back as best they could. The attack lasted 15min after which the attackers put on some Saint George ribbons and beat up the surviving and wounded soldiers while telling them that they were from the Donbass Resistance forces. Not a single solider believed them.

About one hour later two or three more helicopters were seen shooting at the destroyed vehicles of the attackers in an apparent attempt to conceal their origin (Privat Bank). Still, witnesses have categorically identified the vans used by Privat Bank. There is also video footage confirming this. 'Ukraine SITREP May 22th, 19:32 UTC/Zulu: Ukie death squad murders conscripts'.

Posted by: William Bowles | May 22, 2014 4:10:39 PM | 47

PS: Was hitting the ammunition dump accidental or was it deliberate? The major contention seems to be who were the helicopters firing at?

Posted by: William Bowles | May 22, 2014 4:16:43 PM | 48

Goddamit, he states that as fact: "two or three more helicopters were seen shooting at the destroyed vehicles of the attackers in an apparent attempt to conceal their origin (Privat Bank)." But it's not a fact. It's a hypothesis, and I reject it as implausible on multiple grounds. That attack wouldn't destroy the evidence, and it didn't. They didn't drop the kind of munitions that would have done that job/ Anyway, I have a much stronger argument: if the helicopters were part of the black op, why didn't they finish off the soldiers, out there in the open field? My hypothesis is this: the only ministry controlled by these neonazis is the Interior Ministry, and the Right Sector is being run out of there. The armed forces are giving just about the minimum help they can. They aren't supporting Right Sector. In this case, they're stymying it. That's what I think.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 22, 2014 4:20:59 PM | 49

I've looked at all three videos mentioned here of the actual (or at least one) helicopter attack, and they all look like exactly the same video to me.

Posted by: William Bowles | May 22, 2014 4:25:02 PM | 50

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 22, 2014 4:20:59 PM | 49

Rowan, the problem is, the videos show helis attacking what exactly? Why would they destroy those vehicles and not attack the troops in the field? Did they think that there were attackers in the vehicles? And if it was the Army, why did they not communicate with the troops?

I keep coming back to this Bes character, he's the key to this event.

Posted by: William Bowles | May 22, 2014 4:29:20 PM | 51

And is the relevation of this diabolical plot [the one in anon #44 which "It was deliberate murder to intimidate other Ukrainian military members - obey or die." ]actually "Part of the Plot" or was that the part they fucked up??

Inquiring minds wants to know exactly how this works -- if this is true and the truth (that it was deliberate retaliation for refusing to attack civilian/rebel populations) comes out, who benefits?? Will recruitment and morale soar with people wanting to get on board?? (people who have not already rushed to join the National Guard to defend Kiev). Or was this SUPPOSED to be blamed on the rebels and they fucked up?

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | May 22, 2014 4:31:23 PM | 52

The origins of this seem to lie with the initial order for these 'rookie' soldiers to attack the people in a particular village which the commander of the soldiers manning the checkpoint refused to do.

As a result, someone (who?) decided to 'punish' the soldiers. Thus several vehicles filled with 'national guardmen' and/or nazis turn up in Privat Bank vehicles and shoot up the detachment of soldiers.

Then three helicopters turn up and apparently destroy the vehicles. But where are the attackers? They no longer have vehicles to leave the scene of the crime.

1. The three helicopters; were they on an 'official' mission, ie superior officers in the Army ordered them to attack the vehicles? If so why? Why not attack the attackers?

2. Were the helis piloted by 'freelancers' avenging their comrades deaths? This seems a bit far-fetched, you just can't get into an attack helicopter and fly off with it and three of them?

Unless the sequence of events is not at seems to be, it would appear that the helis were trying to destroy evidence and the fact that they didn't attack the soldiers in the field makes perfect sense if you want pin the blame on 'Bes' and his compatriots.

Attacking them with the gunships would have given the game away completely!

Posted by: William Bowles | May 22, 2014 4:47:46 PM | 53

PS: Think about it: why give that initial order to rookie soldiers to attack a village? This whole thing was a setup from the getgo!!!

Posted by: William Bowles | May 22, 2014 4:49:33 PM | 54

This is an interesting show down between Putin and Obama. I would npt bet against Putin. I hope I am wrong.

Chris
Owner CEL Financial Services
http://local.yahoo.com/info-78923994-cel-financial-services-income-tax-preparation-fillmore

Posted by: Chris | May 22, 2014 4:50:39 PM | 55

In order for this "black op" to have a "deterrent effect" -- the "truth" must come out and be applauded ... iow, applause that these rookies were killed for balking... I'm far from convinced anyone would endorse such a tactic ... even if some "mad man Captain Kurtz" ordered it, hopefully HIS foot-soldiers would refuse. On the contrary, if this "truth" were proved, imho, the people behind the "real killers" would be reviled, even prosecuted as traitors, domestic terrorists or worse.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | May 22, 2014 5:00:15 PM | 56

The pictures from BBC of the incident are also interesting:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27515514

The “pro-Russian gunman” is wearing matching fatigues, combat vest, finger free gloves, and sneakers. He looks professional. That is quite a stockpile of weapons. If taken from the checkpoint, this is impressive. Experts may be able to tell who hired him; an Oligarch, locals like the movie “The Magnificent Seven”, or the CIA.

Pictures of the Ukraine Army officers, afterwards, looking at the burned out mess at the checkpoint are something right out of Vietnam after a firefight. If tactics are the same, the gunships were softening the checkpoint, killing anything that moves, before the Ukraine Army relief troops moved back in.

Posted by: VietnamVet | May 22, 2014 5:10:24 PM | 57

@55 Good call Chris. The Obama's grossed a mere $481,098 last year. Putin is worth $70 billion according to some estimates. I know which tax returns I'd choose to prepare.

Posted by: dh | May 22, 2014 5:16:34 PM | 58

Posted by: VietnamVet | May 22, 2014 5:10:24 PM | 57

Note that the BBC correspondent said that the checkpoint had been attacked by pro-separatists, unlike the BBC text I quoted earlier.

Posted by: William Bowles | May 22, 2014 5:27:56 PM | 59

Video from Wednesday - before the attack

Posted by: somebody | May 22, 2014 5:29:25 PM | 60

@57 vietnam vet. they saved the best quote for the very end of that article :
"In another development, residents of a village near Sloviansk, a town in Donetsk often seen as the separatists' stronghold, complained of shelling that appeared to come from government positions.

"Why they are hitting us?'' asked Zinaida Patskan, 80, outside her ruined house in Semenovka. "We are civilians!"

Posted by: james | May 22, 2014 5:30:48 PM | 61

cbc is referring to them as "pro-Russia insurgents"...

meanwhile in other news from cbc - same link.. sending mike harris - the conservative who gutted many of the social programs in ontario and had a hate on for the city of toronto is leading the delegation to kiev.. pathetic..
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-crisis-rebel-attackers-kill-at-least-16-at-checkpoint-1.2650438

"Canadian observers to monitor vote

Former Ontario premier Mike Harris is in Kyiv as co-leader of the 500 Canadians who will observe the Ukrainian presidential election. About 2,000 observers are arriving from around the world, and Canadians are the largest group.

Ukrainians "want to have a fair election," Harris told CBC correspondent Nahlah Ayed in Kyiv.

Posted by: james | May 22, 2014 5:51:29 PM | 62

Actually I have been expecting some kind of false flag operation against the Kiev regime for some time.

After the autonomy referendum, things have become a kind of stalemate. Neither side could defeat the other side militarily, and people were waiting for the result of Putin's visit to China, which will affect the European calculation about Ukraine, and the result of the presidential election, which may reshuffle the Kiev government, some extremists losing their portfolios. Then a condition for negotiation may appear.

If there is someone who doesn't want negotiation, a dramatic attack on the Kiev regime may do the trick. It will galvanize the Kiev regime supporters in the western Ukraine, bringing in more volunteers for the militia formations, and make the Kiev regime troops more willing to kill. Then you can escalate the situation one notch up.

Therefore the story about the order to attack civilians and their refusal to obey may be irrelevant. They might have been just randomly picked. Or, they wanted to portray the attackers as monsters who attacked the decent soldiers who wouldn't kill civilians.

However if this is really a false flag operation, it was poorly planed and poorly executed.

Posted by: PuppetMaster | May 22, 2014 6:14:50 PM | 63

Love these two consecutive lead paragraphs from the BBC in that story from #57 - spot the logical impasse:

Heavily armed militants attacked the checkpoint in the Volnovakha area, in one of four attacks reported overnight in eastern Ukraine.

It is unclear who attacked the checkpoint, with one Ukrainian officer telling the BBC it was not separatists.

I'm not sure how it works in the media, where cracks in the wall of lies appear. I theorize, from zero knowledge, that there's a sheet of talking points and positions handed out to each desk from the editor, and then there's the fresh data that keeps pouring in also every hour. And one overshadows the other from time to time?

Posted by: Grieved | May 22, 2014 6:33:00 PM | 64

Posted by: PuppetMaster | May 22, 2014 6:14:50 PM | 63
Now you have to explain why according to AP Horlovka rebels claimed the attack.

I do wonder which military genius parks an army battalion in the middle of the woods.

Posted by: somebody | May 22, 2014 6:36:18 PM | 65

JSorrentine #38

In the end, we are again left guessing at the motives of a WELL-KNOWN AND PROLIFIC active murderous criminal - i.e., the US - when we should be focusing on attempting to create a narrative that can counter this murderous nonsense and make it stop.

I hesitate to draw your fire - but I do value your posts. They have their effect. The fact is, we are all trying to create that very narrative you speak of, but each does it in one's own way. Stay impatient, keep pushing, it's working.

The American people are going to have to take down this nightmare empire madhouse, and those of us who are sobering to this knowledge are very earnestly trying to get the tactics in a row that will offer some slender chance of personal survival, perhaps, as well as victory.

I will say that my heart is greatly uplifted by knowing that we Americans will not be alone when this fight begins. Russia will be out there, pursuing its own freedom, bearing witness to truth. In the end, there will be no hegemon in this world. I find this encouraging, worth everything.

So anyway, in sincere hope this doesn't bring a huge rant down on my head - Salute!

Posted by: Grieved | May 22, 2014 6:46:11 PM | 66

Posted by: somebody | May 22, 2014 6:36:18 PM | 65

Yes, I know the claim. However Gubarev denied any responsibility.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27515514

Donetsk rebel leader Pavel Gubarev went on Facebook to deny that separatist forces had attacked the soldiers.

We don't know the truth yet.

However if that Bess guy is real and he is really behind this attack, it means that he commands a highly professional outfit, since that is what the survivors of the attack said.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, an army major who spoke to the survivors of the attack told our correspondent he was sure that the attackers were not Donetsk separatists but "mercenaries".

If there is a such a professional outfit and the Donetsk authority doesn't know about it, things do not fit together. Something somewhere must be false.

In any case, what I said is a speculation on what it would mean and how it would be done, if you are going to do a false flag operation. It will serve as a template to judge the events against.

Posted by: PuppetMaster | May 22, 2014 6:54:49 PM | 67

Posted by: PuppetMaster | May 22, 2014 6:54:49 PM | 67
It was not the only event that happened. I would say separatists are on an offensive.

Posted by: somebody | May 22, 2014 7:20:01 PM | 68

@64 "I theorize, from zero knowledge, that there's a sheet of talking points and positions handed out to each desk from the editor, and then there's the fresh data that keeps pouring in also every hour. And one overshadows the other from time to time?"

Yes I think that's how it works. Events move so fast sometimes it takes a while to get the spin right. A good example would be the Russia/China gas agreement. For a while it looked as thought the deal wouldn't happen (gloat). Then the deal was announced and the price became the main issue.

Posted by: dh | May 22, 2014 7:24:49 PM | 69

Posted by: somebody | May 22, 2014 7:20:01 PM | 68

Good. Then, we will soon find out.

Posted by: PuppetMaster | May 22, 2014 7:28:20 PM | 70

#38;Yeah,next they'll be coupons in happy meals and Subway,and when you get to the place,they'll run that dwarf Sutherland and his cruddy fear factory "24",24/7/365.
And Ms.Sunflower,the NYTs comments are rigged just by the fact that any subscribers still there are indoctrinated or agenda driven(I guess some still think its important enough for info to over ride its bias,but I wont pay to be lied to)and those who aren't subscribers only get 10 articles a month,and one can't access comments if over that limit. And even there,I see many comments critical of their outrageous slant and propaganda,the sleepers are awakening,albeit slowly.And Wapo,jeez,what a rag also,sheesh,almost every writer is a neolibcon Zionist.I look at both to see what the criminals are scheming about.
As to Ukraine,who the hell knows whats going on,the MSM has dried up most coverage,which of course is mostly horsehockey.Enough with the blood though,Jaw,jaw,instead of war war.


i check

Posted by: dahoit | May 22, 2014 7:37:55 PM | 71

scalawag #8

Re: У «Правого сектора» и Нацгвардии были 200-тые и 300-тые. Они понесли потери.

I think the numbers 200 and 300 are some kind of 10-code for dead and wounded.

***

I am not sure the helicopter attack is necessarily directly related to the early morning raid. It followed two or three hours later. The helicopters could have been sent in to destroy the armor so it does not fall into insurgent hands. They similarly destroyed a downed Mi-24 near Slavyansk. (Only after the anti-tank missiles had been removed by the resistance.)

On the other hand, there seem to be other Ukrainian troops at the site in the aftermath. Were these also wounded by the ammo explosion?

Posted by: Petri Krohn | May 22, 2014 7:39:57 PM | 72

#58;Documentation of your claim,or just calumny from homonazi,Zionazi or femenazi adherence?
Notice our MSMs total implementation of gay propaganda lately,to besmirch Putin and Russia.

Posted by: dahoit | May 22, 2014 7:49:38 PM | 73

@72 Just a response to Chris and his spam. No hidden agenda.

Posted by: dh | May 22, 2014 7:52:59 PM | 74

There sure is lot of asinine speculation here. The "Bes" person is a phony, the western fascists are using the same kind of MO they have done an endless number of times when they ran a terrorist attack using an "al qaida" cover. After the attack, up pops somebody or a group claiming they did it (often one never heard of before, like "Bes"), and that they are al qaida. No anti-coup force has helicopters in the Ukraine, the claims by "Bes" are ludicrous. The bandera nazis have already staged falseflag attacks with goons pretending they were anti-coup folk. In Odessa and in Mariupol. This is documented. The sitrep at the Vineyard of the Saker has already been noted here. That plainly lays out what happened.

I would add that there seems to be two different reasons the junta did this attack:

1) to demonize the anti-coup people and blame them for the attack. Perhaps in propaganda preparation of mass attacks by the bandera nazis on civilians in the anti-coup strongholds? The sods seem to be building up their forces in the region and have moved in some pretty heavy bombardment equipment.

2) to intimidate other Ukrainian army units thinking of refusing war criminal orders. It's obvious the Ukrainian military would realize exactly what went down, through their own internal communications, and the fact the western fascists, through their junta puppets, made no secret to the military what they did, even though, to the outside world, these western fascists are attempting to blame the anti-coup side, with criminal connivance from most of the western media.

Posted by: scalawag | May 22, 2014 8:13:11 PM | 75

Posted by: Petri Krohn | May 22, 2014 7:39:57 PM | 71

Thanks. Somebody else also mentioned that reason for the 200 and 300 numbers. In the context of how they were used, it makes a lot more sense than the guesses I put forth.

Posted by: scalawag | May 22, 2014 8:25:14 PM | 76

Though it didn't mention the name, Bess, this NYT article mentioned the militia formation from Horlivka.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/22/world/europe/solidarity-eludes-ukraine-separatist-groups-as-presidential-election-nears.html

On Tuesday, several military trucks with armed men bearing a Russian flag sped into Donetsk from the north and surrounded the headquarters of the Ukrainian Security Service, which has been occupied by members of a Donetsk-based militia.

Sentries dressed in military fatigues and armed with automatic rifles were posted at crossroads leading to the building, and city police officers prevented pedestrians from entering the area.

A guard, who did not give his name but identified himself as a second lieutenant in the army of the Donetsk People’s Republic, said they had come from the city of Horlivka, which is located to the north of Donetsk, in order to “instill order” among members of a local militia.

“There is no discipline” among them, he said, adding that the local militias were “unprofessional” and had not been registered. “Horlivka made the revolution.”


Posted by: PuppetMaster | May 22, 2014 8:26:59 PM | 77

Posted by: PuppetMaster | May 22, 2014 8:26:59 PM | 76

"Though it didn't mention the name, Bess, this NYT article mentioned the militia formation from Horlivka>

More confirmation the attack was a typical western falseflag operation, with the media being given prepared "talking points" to sell the scam. Like with the CW attacks Israel-USA carried out in Syria and then blamed on the government there. That's a scam the sods are still running, BTW. If something is in the NYT as "fact", then it is certain that something is anything but fact.

Posted by: scalawag | May 22, 2014 8:33:16 PM | 78

If the Bes person is a phony and it looks like he is indeed, then the "Strelkov" claiming he did it is also a phony. This is to sow the seeds of hatred between the Army and the resistance. Note how the Army and the resistance have pledged until now not to fire on each other. The civilians bring food and water to the conscripts at the check points. That is why the woman is in shock in the BBC report and asks "why? we are civilians."

Posted by: Sun Tzu | May 22, 2014 8:33:52 PM | 79

Posted by: Sun Tzu | May 22, 2014 8:33:52 PM | 78

"then the "Strelkov" claiming he did it is also a phony."

Where did he claim he did it?

Posted by: scalawag | May 22, 2014 8:37:33 PM | 80

here http://vz.ru/world/2014/5/22/688005.html

Posted by: Sun Tzu | May 22, 2014 8:41:01 PM | 81

here

http://summer56.livejournal.com/119139.html

and here

http://el-murid.livejournal.com/

Posted by: Sun Tzu | May 22, 2014 8:42:42 PM | 82

bbc article on the election: Ukraine elections: Runners and risks. Somewhat less than the 23 candidates who started out in the race.

Slightly more than 19% of Ukraine's 35.5 million voters live in the three regions affected by pro-Russian unrest: Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk. In Crimea (1.8m voters or 5.1%) there is no voting at all following its annexation by Russia. In Donetsk region (3.3m voters or 9.3%), half of the district electoral commissions are either under rebel control or vulnerable to attack during the election, electoral officials say. In Luhansk (1.8m or 5%), it is a similar picture for two thirds of the commissions.

There will be no voting in Crimea, but Ukrainians who kept their citizenship can cross into Ukraine to vote if they wish. Interesting maps too. It doesn't mention if the Communist Party was banned, however, the CP candidate has withdrawn after complaining of harassment.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | May 22, 2014 9:12:04 PM | 83

The Streltsev claim 'followed' a DDoS attack on rusvesna.ru, his outlet. So maybe the site was briefly hijacked. After all, if he denies it and the whole black op/disinfo package falls apart, it won't matter in terms of the primary goal, which would have been to influence the election, and permit a quantum leap in aggression immediately following it, a claim that "the Russians" have escalated, a genuine Army (as opposed to just Right Sector) offensive in the east, something immediate. They never worry that their disinfo will be exposed after it has achieved its purpose, because once something is done, they 'set it in stone' in subsequent western reporting and repeat it in every goddam Reuters roundup, day after day after day.

So, to sum up: I don't really see why we should cling on to the presupposition that the helicopters were trying to destroy evidence. (Who exactly did it come from?) I think they were driving off the raiders. The troops in the field were obviously worried that the helicopters were part of the black op, since the troops knew they were subject to a black op anyway, having seen the PrivatBank armored vans. My hypothesis is that the only Ministry the neo-Nazis control outright is Parubyi's Interior Ministry, and Right Sector is getting govt support out of there, and black ops support out of Kolomoisky and the CIA. Meantime, the army is doing as little to help the Right Sector "punitive battalions" as it can (these "punitive battalions" are really provocateurs, attacking both sides). In this case, the helicopters thwarted and helped expose a classic black op, but the Bes and Streltsev disinfo claims went ahead anyway, as if the attack phase of the op had succeeded in its planned goal, which would have been to annihilate the troops completely. And thus, the other initial claim, that these troops had refused a "punitive" assignment, needs to be examined very carefully. Who initially made this claim, which seems to have preceded all other reporting on our side? Was this claim itself disinfo that set us all off on the wrong track?

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 22, 2014 9:39:56 PM | 84

@Sun Tzu | 81

here

http://summer56.livejournal.com/119139.html

I hope you dont take random blogger as a reliable source of info? Until its confirmed Strelkov himself said it, I would take with a truckload of salt whatever someone else claim in this desinfo war. Even if someone reputable in Donbass takes responsibility (Strelkov or w/e), it still shouldnt be taken as 100% truth until verified, federalists also sometimes like to exaggerate or even fake info.

To even assume federalists did it doesnt make any sense. Why attack platoon of soldiers who dont want to fight and were planning to withdraw, plus far away from actual battle zone? If militias resources are extremely limited (as claimed by Strelkov), and you under imminent attack in main cities, would you send most of your people somewhere far away in the woods to randomly massacre soldiers who refused to shoot at civilians? Thats just stupid on so many levels, isnt? Survivors also claim it werent separatists, are they wrong too?

Posted by: Harry | May 22, 2014 10:10:21 PM | 85

@Rowan Berkeley #83:

The claim appears to originate with L!FENEWS

Residents of Blagodatnyy stood up to defend their homes. The soldiers were ordered to suppress resistance. They refused to shoot at people, and eventually they were punished, " said a source in the headquarters of self-defense. They killed several soldiers, four or five, and then put 10 people on their knees and shot them. This was told by wounded people.

b gives a link to this story in comment #1. RT repeats the claim, citing L!FENEWS.

The L!FENEWS story makes the claim that the people who shot the soldiers were supported by attack helicopters, but I agree with you that that doesn't seem to have been the case.

Posted by: Demian | May 22, 2014 10:15:33 PM | 86

Why the West Should Be Ashamed about Ukraine

Rebecca M. Miller

May 22, 2014
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/why-the-west-should-be-ashamed-about-ukraine-10506

Over the course of events that have transpired during the Ukraine crisis, there have been unwarranted provocations from Moscow, bouts of violence in eastern Ukraine, illegal referenda (and one annexation) and incessant finger pointing in all different directions. But one place at which everyone’s fingers should be pointed is Brussels.

Essentially, what the European Union has done is created a mess that it is unwilling to clean up. What’s worse is that it has not publicly owned up to its share of the fault (a large share at that) for the crisis in Ukraine and Putin’s adventurism. Much of the discussion on this topic has focused on the shortcomings of the Obama administration, punishing Putin, whether NATO expansionism led to where U.S.-Russian relations stand today, and so forth. While these are all valid sands in which to anchor debate, one topic that deserves more attention is the future of U.S.-European relations.

Posted by: Virgile | May 22, 2014 10:22:18 PM | 87

RT is reporting that in Lugansk, pro-junta forces fired on Ukrainian forces who had surrendered to separatists.

A military doctor Gennady Moralishvili confirmed that Ukrainian armed forces opened fire at their own people, who earlier surrendered. He added that most of those injured currently in the local hospital are civilians. Moralishvili also said that the National Guard set the city's train station on fire and when fire brigade arrived to put it out, they shot at them too.

The ‘friendly-fire’ incident was also confirmed by another captive Ukrainian soldier, who says he was left behind alone inside an armored personnel carrier during the retreat. “The commander ordered us to open indiscriminate fire,” the soldier said during the same press conference, adding that locals “saved him” from Kiev-controlled soldiers.

Posted by: Demian | May 22, 2014 10:29:08 PM | 88

@ 84 Harry

Note that I wrote "then the "Strelkov" claiming he did it is also a phony" which means that it is the "Strelkov" who claimed responsibility but not necessarily the original Strelkov. Strelkov just means gunner doesn't it? I didn't accuse the original Strelkov of responsibility as who knows who did it. I am just saying that whoever claimed it on behalf of Strelkov is a a phony. Capice?

Posted by: Sun Tzu | May 22, 2014 10:41:04 PM | 89

@Virgile #86:

That article is pretty delusional. Yes, the EU offered Ukraine the "deal" that Yanukovych ultimately declined, but the EU didn't organize the coup: USG did. The article is trying to blame the Ukraine mess on the EU, which is silly, since the EU takes its orders from USG.

In any case, the EU was acting too slowly for Victoria Nuland, thus her "fuck the EU" and the coup.

Posted by: Demian | May 22, 2014 10:41:57 PM | 90

#86 and 89. You are both right. Whoever in the EU that negotiated that economic plan to integrate Ukraine into Europe set this crisis in motion. Problem with the EU is that no one seems to be in charge. Some small clique inside that vast bureaucracy negotiated a plan that was a direct threat to Russia. I am sure that the EU has their share of neocons and they knew what they were doing. However, there does not seem to be much central over-sight. However, once Vic Nuland noticed the problem that was being set off, jumped on it and definitely escalated the crisis. Once the the national leaders in France and Germany saw what was happening they tried to walk back the problem. That is what earned them the Vic's 'fuck the EU' charge.

If all out war with Russia is avoided this whole crisis could have some very positive outcomes. First, whatever happens, Europe will have to be very suspicious of American policy. Second, Obama and Kerry will have to realize that the neocons have set up this disastrous policy. Hopefully it will lead to a purge of these creatures from our government. Finally, a peaceful outcome will have to be seen by the whole world as a major set back for US imperialism.

Posted by: ToivoS | May 23, 2014 1:01:41 AM | 91

Toivos, it's naive to imagine Obama and the Dems are anything more than the soft cops in a soft cop/hard cop double act. There will always be Dem cheerleaders who will pretend otherwise, but they will always turn out to be liberal interventionists themselves, because there's no other sort.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 23, 2014 1:12:44 AM | 92

Posted by: Virgile | May 22, 2014 10:22:18 PM | 86

Actually Brussels (German commissar Social Democrat Verheugen) pointed an accusing finger at Berlin (Conservative Merkel, but also Social Democrat Steinmeier) - in German

Short translation: It is the membership states who decide not the EU Commission. In 2007, the commission got tasked and the mandate defined under the chairmanship of German chancellor Merkel. The European neighborhood policy was claimed to be of eminent importance. The agreement with Ukraine was supposed to become a model...
The agreement was formulated in 2012. And it was not Ukraine but the EU who refused to sign at first - informally in May 2012, officially in December 2012. That was not the fault of the EU commission alone. The Foreign Ministers of the EU, the majority of the European parliament, had demanded additional conditions, among them freedom for Julia Tymoshenko. That way the EU had sacrificed an important decision on the future, that then was absolutely uncontested by Moscow. Berlin and others did that because of pure party politics and because most EU countries were not interested in Ukraine, warning voices, from Poland, from the Baltic states, from Bulgaria, were ignored.
The conflict with Russia developed in 2013, when both sides, the US and the EU on one side, and Russia on the other, defined the EU association of Ukraine as geopolitical either/or. This was not done by megalomaniac bureaucrats but by politicians. Even as late as September 2013, the Ukrainian government pursued the EU association, despite pressure from Moscow, despite the fact that the EU de facto had stated their opposition to the Ukrainian president and had pacts with with the then Ukrainian opposition. The attitude of the acting president only changed when the country started to have economic difficulties and no on in the EU took it seriously. In addition to that the EU did not try to talk to Russia in 2013 and that was not the fault of the EU commission alone. It was as simple as that, no one talked to Russia. Fears, that trade with Russia could diminish, were not taken seriously, as there was a German analysis that maintained the contrary. And truth be told, Yanukovich halted the signing of the association agreement in November 2013, but still went to Brussels in December 2013 in the hope for financial support of his close to bankrupt country. Only when he did not get any, did he turn to Moscow.
The grave faults that followed were not the invention of EU bureaucrats. Politicians solidarized openly with the Maidan not seeing or not wanting to see that it was neither a countrywide, nor a homogenous movement. Without necessity, the government of Ukraine was immediately supported after the fall of Yanukovich, though this government does not have the confidence of the majority of the country, is anti-Russian, and includes parts who are racist (he uses the word "völkisch" which is a historical term for German protofascist movements)
As European political elites were only capable to think in terms of pro-Russian or pro-European, and preferred conflict to dialogue with Russia, they triggered the worst political crisis in this century in Europe. Pro-Russian and pro-European are no opposites as Russia - and Georgia - are part of Europe, too.

So - according to Verheugen - this had a long fuse, was done with full knowledge and consent of Angela Merkel and Westerwelle, now inherited by Steinmeier (who is responsible for the second part).

From 2008 - Merkel and Timoshenke - one day Ukraine will be part of NATO - in German


Posted by: somebody | May 23, 2014 1:13:55 AM | 93

Very off-topic but oh damn, Barry Eisler tears up Michael Kinsley pretty badly. Fun to read: 'Journalist' Argues In NY Times That Publishing Decisions Should Ultimately Be Made By Government

Posted by: fairleft | May 23, 2014 1:19:49 AM | 94

Posted by: Sun Tzu | May 22, 2014 8:41:01 PM | 80

Posted by: Sun Tzu | May 22, 2014 8:42:42 PM | 81

Thanks.

Posted by: Sun Tzu | May 22, 2014 10:41:04 PM | 88

It's being speculated about. Besides the rusvesna site being attacked (as earlier discussed), another site I checked was also experiencing a very similar attack. Colonel Cassad wrote up a piece comparing the two different versions of the Grace roadblock fight. He notes at the end of his piece:

"Network accounts Strelkova hacked including e-mail address, so that under this nick now unsubscribes he is not there and the IP address is not lit mobile operator.
PS.
Ponomarev and his alleged protection nobody was disarmed."

The "Strelkov" claimed he had Ponomarev's protection group disarmed.

It sounds like somebody is doing some very sophisticated psyops here. Either the Israelis, Americans or maybe British or German, since I doubt the junta has the organization to take it that far.

Posted by: scalawag | May 23, 2014 1:59:34 AM | 95

For all the contradictions and accusations around this event, I take the silence of our western media as a strong indicator that this was done either by some "western" or "pro-western" party. Really, you're being flooded by ukraine news for months and all of a sudden such an event doesn't even make *one* headline anywhere and within several hours is completely out of the news, now that's far out. One can use the mainstream media for information if one reads it backwards ;-).

Posted by: peter radiator | May 23, 2014 2:04:38 AM | 96

Why the cars and vans had the PrivatBank logo?
Is Kolomoisky stupid at this point?
Why Strelkov would attack Ukrainian soldiers who refused to fire on civilians?
Is Strelkov stupid at this point?
Why Kiev would use cars and vans with fake PrivatBank logos to attack their own troops (even disobedient)?
Just for compromise Kolomoisky, friend of the Junta? For what?

So, the question is: where are the cars and vans with PrivatBank logo?
This cars and vans with logos do not make sense.

Posted by: For God Sake | May 23, 2014 2:08:26 AM | 97

See also the comments and links at VK site of РУССКАЯ ВЕСНА (rusvesna.su) on "Strelkov" and the Grace fighting.

Posted by: scalawag | May 23, 2014 2:26:44 AM | 98

@peter radiator #95:

Yes, the same thing occurred to me. There were a notably high number of casualties; yet the US media have completely ignored this.

The British media have touched it a bit, but their reports are surreal. Take this from the Guardian, for example:

At the hospital in Volnovakha, where most of the injured were recuperating, several doctors said the injured soldiers were confused by what had happened and did not understand who had attacked them and why. Ten wounded soldiers left the hospital in the middle of the afternoon in two ambulances, but would not answer questions about where they were being taken or what had happened in the morning.

A man who said he was part of the pro-Kiev forces but did not want to give his name told journalists at the hospital that the people who attacked the checkpoint were "professionals" and that the helicopters had been sent to support them. He had arrived on the scene as backup shortly after the attack.

"I don't know who sent them or what they were doing, I am scared to think of it," he said. He added that the Ukrainians involved were a regiment made up mainly of reservists. In heated exchanges with locals at the hospital, he apologised for the Ukrainian military operation in the east of the country, and said he no longer knew what to believe.

This is top-flight Western journalism meets The Twilight Zone.

Posted by: Demian | May 23, 2014 2:30:51 AM | 99

Posted by: peter radiator | May 23, 2014 2:04:38 AM | 95

I guess the plan is to get Poroshenko elected first round, call the elections legitimate
and then let Poroshenko negotiate with Russia and the separatists.

So anything that shows the "Kyiv government" organizing the elections is not in control counters the narrative.

Posted by: somebody | May 23, 2014 2:36:04 AM | 100

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