Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 11, 2014

Ukraine: Another German "Leak" Against U.S. Policy

A week ago I sensed that there is resistance in Europe and especially in offical Germany against the U.S. led aggressive campaign against Russia:

Even the most staunch transatlantic tabloid in Germany, Bild, today reports (original here) that the CIA and FBI with dozens of agents are running the show in Kiev. The report is based on "German security sources" which lets me believe that the German government is looking for ways to counter Washington's moves.

More intentional "leaks" were published today in the same media, the high circulation Bild am Sonntag print edition. According to this online summary (in German by the Bild sister paper Welt ) two different issues were revealed:

  • According to the German secret service BND some 400 U.S. mercenaries from the company Academi, previously Blackwater, are leading and coordinating with the Ukrainian army and police in operations against "guerrilla" in east Ukraine.
  • According to NSA sniffing on Russian military communication, released to the BND, Russian pilots were ordered to violate Ukrainian airspace.

Both claims are sourced to BND security briefings in the German chancellery.

The first claim seems plausible as it confirms accusations made earlier in several Russian media. Commentators in the German media seem to accept it even while expressing some doubts about the second claim. Hardly anyone in Germany today believes anything claimed by the NSA :-).

Within just seven days two significant "leaks" to Bild, a chancellor Merkel supporting and staunchly transatlantic paper, blame the United States for the trouble in Ukraine. These "leaks" must have come from the chancellery and, them being true or not, confirm that there is some antagonism in the central political and security branches in Berlin towards the U.S. plans.

We can only hope that such antagonism will also find ways to express itself in political results restraining the U.S. from inciting civil war in Ukraine and a possible huge conflagration in Europe.

Posted by b on May 11, 2014 at 12:19 PM | Permalink

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As Ukraine remains on a knife-edge of military tension, the NATO forces continue their Eastern European expansion and military provocations. In this must-listen interview, Rick Rozoff of Stop NATO International breaks down the history of NATO’s global partnership program, its decades-long build-up in Eastern Europe, the people and organizations in whom the fate of the world is increasingly hanging in the balance, and the small glimmer of hope that an informed, galvanized public can derail this headlong rush to war.

Interview">http://www.corbettreport.com/interview-881-rick-rozoff-calls-out-the-nato-warmongers/">Interview 881 – Rick Rozoff Calls Out the NATO Warmongers

You can't un-know ...

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 11, 2014 12:30:02 PM | 1

thanks b. you have been saying this for a while now, but i thought it was mostly due the fact you live in germany. we are reliant on what others share and we don't usually get to read/hear about a more german perspective. thanks for articulating your views here.

Posted by: james | May 11, 2014 12:31:33 PM | 2

Interview 881 – Rick Rozoff Calls Out the NATO Warmongers

Highly recommended ...

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 11, 2014 12:31:55 PM | 3

Actually, you also find amazing stuff in the US Main Stream Media

Boston Globe - Ukraine regions hold sovereignty vote

Moscow and many in Ukraine’s east denounce the new government as a nationalist junta and allege that it intends to trample on the rights of eastern Ukraine’s Russian-speakers.

More than 30 people have been reported killed since Ukrainian forces began mounting offensives to retake some eastern cities now under control of the insurgents.

Turchynov’s chief of staff, Serhiy Pashynskyi, pledged Sunday that the government would seek to avoid further civilian casualties. ‘‘We will not engage in street fights in Slovyansk or elsewhere because that will lead to dozens of unnecessary deaths,’’ he told reporters.

It is over.

Posted by: somebody | May 11, 2014 12:36:15 PM | 4

@4 somebody.. glad to see they are being defined as "civilian casualties" as opposed to the "20 terrorists destroyed" quote i read the other day.. "murdering innocent people" would be the most accurate, but i doubt that we will be reading that in any amerikan rag any time soon. it only works that way when the cia are working to overthrow regimes..

Posted by: james | May 11, 2014 12:50:42 PM | 5

It is like a breach in a dyke now.

Der Spiegel - in German - Hatred of Kiev drives Eastern Ukrainians to the voting booths

Posted by: somebody | May 11, 2014 12:58:03 PM | 6

Talking about a breach in a dyke. Just in from Teheran

"We are worried about the future security of Europe," he said.

"We won the game in Syria easily," said Amir Mohebbian, a conservative strategist and government adviser. "The US does not understand Syria. The Americans wanted to replace Assad, but what was the alternative? All they have done is encourage radical groups and made the borders less safe.

"We accept the need for change in Syria – but gradually. Otherwise, there is chaos," Mohebbian added.

Damn Iranians you are supposed to be subtle. This is cross gloating.

Posted by: somebody | May 11, 2014 1:27:54 PM | 7

I dont think we need the German secret service the BND
to tell us that US mercenaries are running the show in Kiev.

Everyone on the planet, except perhaps those in North Korea,
already knows that for some time.

Posted by: chris m | May 11, 2014 1:35:48 PM | 8

The author of How the revival of German militarism was prepared links to New Power, New Responsibility, a chilling prescription for a new US/German Axis in the West by the Stiftung Wissenschaft und Politik and the The German Marshall Fund that seems pretty terrifying to me.

I know that b and others keep pointing to resistance to such undertakings by 'the German people' ... but the people everywhere seem to be in decline and governments in the ascendant. The US/UK/German MSM certainly were/are out of popular control and under control of these same organizations that run these governments.

I would be very happy to read of the Germans and Brits taking over their governments and putting an end to this nightmare ... but I'm afraid that, like us Americans, they're acting more like 'subjects' than 'citizens'.

Posted by: john francis lee | May 11, 2014 1:40:50 PM | 9

@8 chris m.. while this is true, it helps to get some confirmation on a broader level thru the media which often seems the last to come around to stating a bold fact when it has been mostly conjecture previously..

Posted by: james | May 11, 2014 1:45:26 PM | 10

i strongly recommend this video, posted by Noirette in the last thread
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93b7oDqaHr0
simply amazing... an MP gets beaten at the new "Ukrainian" parliament

Posted by: Mina | May 11, 2014 1:47:23 PM | 11

I don't think the "dyke" has broken by any means. Der Spiegel - in English is still lock step with the authoritarians of the US "Deep state"

I live in a city completely dominated by Obama's most ardent followers and their media "informed opinion" is that Obama is a victim in all of this. They also believe, almost to a person, that Putin is a monster in the vein of Hitler bent on world domination.

Hillary Clinton stating that Putin is as evil as Hitler, while nonsensical to sane people, is the overwhelming accepted by the majority of this city's "liberals".

Oddly, my friends in the southern city to which I am moving, think we are provoking the Russians for no good reason. I presume the difference lies in having been "burned" by Bush [their expression], having served in Uniform...and not trusting anything Hillary says informs this opinion.

At some point this nation is going to have to grips with the fact that Obama-supporters/"liberals" love war....so long as they, their friends and children don't serve. Obama is responsible for 4 wars by my count and this last war of Obama's looks to be a war that will produce offspring for decades.

Posted by: S Brennan | May 11, 2014 1:52:19 PM | 12

"I dont think we need the German secret service the BND
to tell us that US mercenaries are running the show in Kiev."

I could not disagree more. The mainstream media, from which 95% of citizens still get their information, will not print the this sort of thing without a reputable source, even if all of us knew or suspected it. It is a big deal and highly useful if such information crosses over into the mainstream papers and TV stations.

I note that the media in Austria bring photos of the crowds voting for independence, but the reporting is still pretty slanted (e.g. the journalist sent by the "Presse" mainly reports human interest stories from disgruntled pro-Kiev supporters in the East, young women who claim they are afraid and intimidated. The papers do report the Blackwater/Academi claim but imply it is only a rumour and probably untrue.

This article in the strongly pro-Kiev Standard does show a more nuanced view, expressed by a veteran Socialist member of the EP, about to retire, who travelled to the Ukraine at the end of April, and now says there are extremists on all sides and the Kiev government has no clear line: http://derstandard.at/1399507077100/Hannes-Swoboda-nach-Ukraine-Besuch-Extremisten-auf-beiden-Seiten

Posted by: Austrian | May 11, 2014 1:52:33 PM | 13

Wasnt there any protection at the election? Wasnt this a bit naive?

Posted by: Anonymous | May 11, 2014 1:56:55 PM | 14

Ref link posted by Somebody from the Guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/11/syria-crisis-iran-assad-won-war-tehran
They can's distinguish between an Iranian cleric and an Orthodox Christian at the Guardian? (see the pic)

Posted by: Mina | May 11, 2014 2:14:26 PM | 15

I would be very happy to read of the Germans and Brits taking over their governments and putting an end to this nightmare ... but I'm afraid that, like us Americans, they're acting more like 'subjects' than 'citizens'.

Posted by: john francis lee | May 11, 2014 1:40:50 PM | 9

Well, regarding the Brits, Canadians, and all other British Commonwealth types: they ARE "subjects" :)

Subjects of Her Royal Majesty Elizabeth Regina who styles herself as "EIIR"

Posted by: lol | May 11, 2014 2:16:20 PM | 16

House grilled Nuland over US’ Cooperation with Neo-Nazis in Ukraine

A two-hour hearing of US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland at the House Foreign Affairs Committee over the Obama administration’s and the US’ role in the developments in Ukraine nailed down Nuland over the United States overt cooperation with and use of neo-Nazis. Nuland tried to dodge questions, explained US plans for Ukraine and told the Committee outright lies about Kiev having “upheld the obligations of the Geneva agreement”. Nuland omitted that Kiev has mobilized Ukraine’s military forces and the presence of large contingents of Ukrainian troops near the Russian border.

Hard times covering-up cooperation with neo-Nazis. It becomes increasingly difficult for the Obama administration and the corporate US press to cover-up the fact that the main driving force behind the coup in Ukraine are neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists, supported by the US.

More extended coverage in my diary - Confrontational: Carter & Mujahideen; Obama & Neo-nazis.

In Israel, Haaretz and Yediot reported on a speech by Amos Oz. Story in Tikun Olam – Settler Price Taggers are “Hebrew Neo-Nazis”.

Posted by: Oui | May 11, 2014 2:21:06 PM | 17

"Krasnoarmeysk People executed for wanting to vote in a referendum. "

Video 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4joK6D_-Wc
Video 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtx-JkMwKWU

The Associated Press talks of "guardsman" against "insurgents"
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ukraine-guardsmen-open-fire-crowd

The "guardsman" are Right Sektor nazis who closed down a poll station and people who wanted to vote and protested were simply gunned down.

At least 1 dead and several wounded.

Posted by: b | May 11, 2014 2:22:14 PM | 18

"I dont think we need the German secret service the BND
to tell us that US mercenaries are running the show in Kiev.

"Everyone on the planet, except perhaps those in North Korea,
already knows that for some time."

I, too, disagree. Confirmation for another source is always useful. After all the crudity and crassness with which Obama and his gang do these things is counter intuitive: reasonable people find hypocrisy at this level hard to believe.

By the way your derogatory reference to "North Korea" suggests that you are saturated in the sickly Kool Ade of imperialist propaganda.

john francis lee: I suspect that "b' is not suggesting that popular opinion lies behind Germany's ambivalence about the US policy in Ukraine. Much more important is the ruling class's realisation that German industry and commerce is deeply involved in trade and good relations with Russia.

Posted by: bevin | May 11, 2014 2:23:00 PM | 19

Mina @11

It seems the rightist Ukrainian MP with the pony tail (about 1:10 in) hasn't changed his behaviour.

Mind you, a female MP on the speaker's side shows some guts pushing and punching one of the attackers (about 1:20)!

Posted by: Yonatan | May 11, 2014 2:29:32 PM | 20

The Hill pretends to live in a world without leaks
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/09/us/politics/obama-policy-bans-employee-use-of-leaked-material.html?_r=1

Posted by: Mina | May 11, 2014 2:35:18 PM | 21

@ S Brennan (12):

An awful lot of people will back a war, or at least passively acquiesce to one, if it's properly marketed at their demographic--even liberals.

Ever since Putin outed himself as a Christian and 'homophobe', the American media seems to have been on a tear, portraying him as some sort of phalangist dictator. I've long had the suspicion that the neo-cons were preparing for another move against him, and realizing that the Tea Party types probably wouldn't be too excited at the prospect of going to war against a 'fellow' Christian, they thought they should attack Putin from the left, rather than the right. We truly have one party with two names in this country, you see.

By the way, on a more positive note, here's a surprisingly lucid and well-informed piece on solving the Ukraine crisis from Anatol Lieven:

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/may/05/ukraine-only-way-to-peace/?insrc=hpss

Is the establishment starting to see reason? Or is Lieven just a lone wolf?

Posted by: James Patrick | May 11, 2014 2:41:43 PM | 22

National Guard shooting reported in #Krasnoarmiisk near Donetsk.

Petr Shelomovskiy @stopnarcotics • 26 min
The locals tried to speak English to the armed men in #Krasnoarmiisk!

One person killed, several wounded. Original report here with YouTube video's.

Posted by: Oui | May 11, 2014 2:53:46 PM | 23

Oops! Missed report by b at #18

Posted by: Oui | May 11, 2014 2:55:04 PM | 24

Civilins are getting killed because they want to vote, and we have the pathetic west support the massacres, wtf is going on?!

Posted by: Anonymous | May 11, 2014 3:07:07 PM | 25

Cui bono.

I have suggested that Snowden's leaks most helped Germany. I further believed that Snowden is either working for Germany, or more likely, a Nazi wing inside the US permanent government. If you go back to when his story was breaking his initial revelations were timed to coincide with Obama's attempts at diplomacy. Merkel had no problems mentioning the NSA mess in her joint presser with Obama last week.

It seems like there is a separation between Germany and the US in Ukraine as far as keeping secrets, and it seems that the cycle is that a story is leaked, the US (State Dept., White House or CIA) deny it, and then it is confirmed by someone leaking in Germany's BND et al.

Here in America Cold War buttons still can be pushed, and the demonization of Putin is still working, but the vast majority of Americans don't want to get dragged into Ukraine (though the US has been operating there covertly for the last 70 years). From economics alone it appears that Ukraine will be unraveling when summer turns to fall. The perfect time for bad publicity for Obama. So the people in the permanent government farther to the right of Obama will score points in the US midterms and liberals will be discouraged and stay home.

Posted by: Bob In Portland | May 11, 2014 3:15:51 PM | 26

@12

"I live in a city completely dominated by Obama's most ardent followers and their media "informed opinion" is that Obama is a victim in all of this. They also believe, almost to a person, that Putin is a monster in the vein of Hitler bent on world domination."

I have found Obama's 'most ardent followers' to consistently ignore any criticism of him... never thought I would see fellow 'liberals' so stuck in cognitive dissonance. I have given up... on them. No longer discuss anything with them. To me, they are as bad, or worse than the Republicans who consistently supported Dubya.

The same appears to hold true for 'liberal Zionists' (now there's an oxymoron if ever there was one!)

It becomes more impossible these days to label any individual or group politically - the definitions no longer seem to be the same for those one is conversing with -

Posted by: crone | May 11, 2014 3:19:41 PM | 27

Posted by: Mina | May 11, 2014 2:14:26 PM | 15

I would read the image as a subtle comment - Assad as the protector of Christians, there are hardly any left, I hear, in Iraq.

Posted by: john francis lee | May 11, 2014 1:40:50 PM | 9

The Stiftung und Wissenschaft think tank paper is interesting, its context is that it was done in conjunction with the German Marshall Fund of the United States.
Basically it states that Germany should diversify economic dependencies for political independence and remain allied to "like minded" partners in preference to "emerging powers" and take more of a leadership role in this alliance as the United States intend to step back.

Let's see what German party programmes of the leading coalition say: German Social Democrats want peace, disarmament and weapons control, and German Christian Democrats :-)) values, interets, targets

values: human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, due process, human and minority right
lasting, peaceful and just order in Europe and the world
interest: transatlantic partnership (free trade zone) and strategic partnership with Brazil, India, China and Russia, Russia is considered decisive for European security and will remain most important energy provider

Basically the neocons tried to pressure a pudding into shaping up. Forget it.

Posted by: somebody | May 11, 2014 3:36:03 PM | 28

@27 crone, obviously anyone who reaches the White House is up to his or her neck in the permanent government. That doesn't mean that there aren't conflicting elements within the US's permanent government, or that parts of the government aren't trying to sabotage the sitting President. After all, it is absolutely clear that JFK was killed in a coup. Nixon's Watergate scandal was littered with CIA operatives and was reported in the press by intelligence agents (examine Bob Woodward's history). Remember the October Surprise, and the failed rescue mission of the American hostages in Iran was run military people who would show up in Reagan's government, like Oliver North.

It does no good to merely shout "Obama Obama" like the American press yells "Putin Putin".

Posted by: Bob In Portland | May 11, 2014 3:37:18 PM | 29

@26 "So the people in the permanent government farther to the right of Obama will score points in the US midterms and liberals will be discouraged and stay home."

Oh sure....they will score points by saying Obama wasn't tough enough. The people in the 'permanent government' hate Putin even more than the 'liberals'.

Posted by: dh | May 11, 2014 3:41:52 PM | 30

Can anyone see my post at 1 & 3? I'm surprised, no one has listened to it, or commented on it, as it's the meta-narrative of all of this Ukraine, business and so much more...

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 11, 2014 3:42:02 PM | 31

Basically it states that Germany should diversify economic dependencies for political independence and remain allied to "like minded" [Zio-US Empire] partners in preference to "emerging powers" [Russia] and take more of a leadership role in this alliance as the United States intend to step back.

Posted by: somebody | May 11, 2014 3:36:03 PM | 28

so basically it sounds like the message from the US to the Germans is:

"Let's you and him fight!"

Posted by: lol | May 11, 2014 3:47:38 PM | 32

Can anyone see my post at 1 & 3? I'm surprised, no one has listened to it, or commented on it, as it's the meta-narrative of all of this Ukraine, business and so much more...

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 11, 2014 3:42:02 PM | 31

just my 2 cents: didn't listen to it, mainly cos both Corbett and Rozoff on their own just bore me, and I suspect i'd find that listening to the 2 of them together in one interview, rabbiting away to their hearts content, would be excruciating.

Having sampled both their outputs once or twice, a long time ago, I noticed that they both usually take a very long time and a lot of words to say what could be said in a few sentences.


And tbh from the excerpt you posted @1, it's doesn't sound like anything most people here don't already know, and have known for quite some time

Posted by: lol | May 11, 2014 3:56:13 PM | 33

Now CIA brennan admit himself he was in kiev. What he did there, oh just walking around....moron.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 11, 2014 4:06:12 PM | 34

German propoganda news reel 1944-1945 period http://vimeo.com/94031326> Ukraine gets eaten alive by the Reich

Posted by: rouge | May 11, 2014 4:07:48 PM | 35

can you imagine these eastern ukrainian patriots organizing raffles, you know, like a case of stolichnaya gold to the guy who brings one of these blackwater motherfuckers in alive? i can.

Posted by: john | May 11, 2014 4:12:12 PM | 37

FAZ - in German - Huge majority expected in Donetzk referendum

Die Mehrheit im Gebiet Donezk hat möglicherweise für die „Staatliche Eigenständigkeit“ der Region gestimmt. Das ist das Ergebnis einer Stichprobenbefragung durch den Korrespondenten der F.A.Z. und sechs weiterer internationaler Medien. Alles deutet auf eine überwältigende Mehrheit für eine Abtrennung von der Ukraine hin.

Translation: Sample polls by correspondents of FAZ and six other internatial media companies point to a overwhelming majority for independence from Ukraine. Most Donezk citizens seem to have intended to take part in the referendum.

Posted by: somebody | May 11, 2014 4:12:57 PM | 38

Maybe eastern ukraine should call in some cossacks and chechens to defend themselves against the american mercenary killers?

Posted by: Anonymous | May 11, 2014 4:19:06 PM | 39

bevin@19

I agree that the capture of an American mercenary would collapse the wall of propaganda that allows America’s cognitive dissonance to continue. The problem is that they are trained and paid not to be taken. There are Russian agents in Ukraine but they’ve lived their whole lives there. So far Russia has not made any serious mistakes like infiltrating regular ground troops.

Thanks to MoA and the links we have a fairly good idea of the goal of global war being pursued by the neo-conservative Obama Administration. But, most everyone only gets lies from the media and unfortunately too many people invested their hope and beliefs in his election to admit that their government supports neo-nazis and assists in the killing of civilians and pregnant women.

Bob In Portland@29

The neo-conservatives may have started the Ukraine Crisis with a little help from Plutocrat funded NGOs but the May 6th Odessa Horror and attempted pacification of Russian speaking majority provinces occurred after the visits to Kiev by John Brennan and Joe Biden in mid-April. Corporate media and the Obama Administration have ignored calls for a neutral federated Ukraine which would stop the incipient Civil War in Europe right now.

Posted by: VietnamVet | May 11, 2014 4:21:00 PM | 40

Vietnam Vet @40

My guess is the mercenaries will be used as trainers and kept well away from action. After all, there are plenty of expendable neo-Nazi wannabes prepared to do the dirty work - and for nothing or peanuts. I guess any existing military training grounds in the west would be a good place to look.

Posted by: Yonatan | May 11, 2014 4:44:10 PM | 41

I have suggested that Snowden's leaks most helped Germany. I further believed that Snowden is either working for Germany,

Well that's one I haven't heard before. How did you arrive at that conclusion? I read the rest of your comment and didn't see anything relating to how you would arrive at the conclusion that he's working for the Germans,

or more likely, a . . . wing inside the US permanent government.

Well yeah - that's something I could get behind, indeed I've pushed the same idea here several times, and it usually results in the C.A.C.L. posse, the Venerable Old Queens of Ass-Clownia, here getting all apoplectic. (But then getting all apoplectic when someone says something original or intelligent seems to be part of their shtick)

Could you define please what you mean when you refer to 'permanent Gov'? The Intel-part (or, more likely imho, a possibly-rogue/possibly-not subsection] or something else? (eg: Intel-part (or possibly-rogue/possibly-not subsection) + [something else]" or "Something other than the Intel-part")

Personally though I think the 'Nazi' insertion there is kinda silly, since they all seem a a bit "Nazi-ish", but whatever floats your boat

Posted by: lol | May 11, 2014 4:52:01 PM | 42

above comment in response to "Bob In Portland" @ 29

Posted by: lol | May 11, 2014 4:53:38 PM | 43

Nice deflection there, @ #33 ... who paid you to obfuscate?

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 11, 2014 4:53:39 PM | 44

Nice deflection there, @ #33 ... who paid you to obfuscate?

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 11, 2014 4:53:39 PM | 44

Your mom - she said you were spending too much time on the Net and needed to get your ass the f*ck out of her basement :)

Posted by: lol | May 11, 2014 4:55:07 PM | 45

@somebody #38:

Hehe, one of the correspondents who carried out that poll works for the Washington Post. I wonder if we'll see at least a blog post at the Post about that poll. All one finds in the latest story from the Post is that "Polls have indicated that most residents of eastern Ukraine would prefer to stay part of that country."

Posted by: Demian | May 11, 2014 5:03:22 PM | 46

@Demian #46:

Stupid me. I just search the Post story for "poll", instead of reading it. Its second paragraph says: "The vast majority appeared to be voting in favor of distancing themselves from the central government in Kiev." So I guess that little poll they did did get into the story after all.

Posted by: Demian | May 11, 2014 5:15:26 PM | 47

From Zerohedge: 400 Blackwater Mercs Deployed In Ukraine Against Separatists, German Press Reports

...However what is certainly surprising and far more interesting, is the persistent attempts by the German press to discredit none other than their biggest "Developed world" ally, the US. It is almost as if someone (a quite wealthy and powerful someone) has material interests that diverge with those of the Obama administration, and hence converge with those of Putin. Alongside the emerging China-Russia axis, keeping tabs on just how close to Russia Germany is willing to get, is easily the most notable story in the entire Ukraine conflict.

Posted by: Frank | May 11, 2014 5:18:23 PM | 48

@45 - lol! re you @42 comment. i think the permanent gov't is some sort of financial nucleus.. i don't really know how it works, or who runs it but i think that is what is driving much of the bullshit around the globe and reason for a lot of unnecessary wars.. my simple idea on this is that war=money. thus the need for perpetual war, or preparation for war.. i think russia has found a way and/or are working towards finding more ways to express independence outside of this financial plutocracy.. that to my mind is the big threat that russia poses - having their own financial autonomy.. it seems that can't be allowed to happen.. it reminds me of a pyramid scheme or financial ponzi scheme expressed across the planet. feel free to shot my theory down anyone. i am receptive to this as it is conjecture on my part.

Posted by: james | May 11, 2014 5:23:58 PM | 49

This was fast :-D

Posted by: Fran | May 11, 2014 5:28:09 PM | 50

@Frank #48:

Another case of the Western media confirming what the Russian media had reported months before.

Posted by: Demian | May 11, 2014 5:32:36 PM | 51

Posted by: Demian | May 11, 2014 5:03:22 PM | 46

"Polls have indicated that most residents of eastern Ukraine would prefer to stay part of that country."

Yeah, when I checked what the western manure merchants had to say earlier, that was a common theme, that 70% would vote no. They are setting up their next propaganda campaign: "the voting was fraudulent because the majority voted for independence, our polls prove the majority was against". The other main theme is the easterners are being very naughty, dumb children because they are not listening to daddy west.

Link to Большинство жителей Донецкой области проголосовали за независимость

Yandex translation.

"Most of the residents of the Donetsk region voted for independence"

"According to preliminary data, the overwhelming majority of voters in the Donetsk region voted in a referendum for independence in the region, according to the Central election Commission of Donetsk national Republic.

"Began the counting of votes. On average, out of every thousand only one against it," said Sunday the representative of the Central election Commission. He explained that the preliminary turnout in Donetsk oblast has exceeded 90%, informs "Interfax".

On Sunday in Donetsk and Lugansk regions held a referendum, organized by the supporters of federalization. The turnout in the Lugansk region according to the latest data has reached 80%. In Slavyansk, the turnout was over 70%.

In Krasnoarmeysk polling stations closed early due to life-threatening voters and employees of the electoral Commission by nazvanii, while the turnout was 77,08%.

"Employees of the electoral Commission managed to evacuate the ballot box, subscription lists, lists of voters and printing", - clarified the CEC head of the Donetsk Republic of Roman Lygin.

Before that, it became known that the armed men seized the building of the city Council in Krasnoarmeysk, Donetsk region, where he worked territorial electoral Commission on conducting a referendum on the status of the region, blocking the voting process.

The referendum takes place in a tense atmosphere, as from may 2nd Ukrainian military carry out punitive operations against supporters of federalization in the South-East of the country.

The main centers of resistance are Slavyansk, Kramatorsk, Mariupol and other cities of Donetsk region, as well as Lugansk, where supporters of federalization established control over a part of the state authorities.

Russian President Vladimir Putin offered the Donetsk and Lugansk to postpone the date of the referendum, to create conditions for them, but the leadership DND decided not to change anything and to hold a plebiscite on may 11.

Incidentally, by having the regions most likely to vote for independence go first, their vote will likely inspire more people in the other regions to seek independence.

Posted by: scalawag | May 11, 2014 5:33:37 PM | 52

SYRIA If you haven't seen this article by Sharmine Narwani about the start of the Syria troubles and by implication the start of events in Ukraine, then please check the piece out. Hoping this link has not been posted before here...
http://rt.com/op-edge/157412-syria-hidden-massacre-2011/

Posted by: MIDAN | May 11, 2014 5:35:37 PM | 53

Posted by: Fran | May 11, 2014 5:28:09 PM | 50

LOL

Link to Netanyahu's naughty finger

Posted by: scalawag | May 11, 2014 5:42:07 PM | 54

Link to Двое жителей Красноармейска получили смертельные ранения в результате стрельбы, открытой бойцами батальона «Днепр» (Обновлено)

Yandex translation.

"Two residents of Krasnoarmeysk was fatally wounded in a shooting, an open soldiers of the battalion "Dnepr" (updated)"

"On the square Shibankova in Krasnoarmeysk, exchange of fire. According to eyewitnesses, the men of battalion "Dnepr", which took under protection Krasnoarmeyskaya the city Council, headed car. The way he was blocked by local protesters residents. To ensure passage of the soldiers opened fire. As a result of shooting two residents of Krasnoarmeysk received fatal wounds.

One of the victims died on the spot. As reported by head of the first aid station in Krasnoarmeysk Anatoly Boboshko, who arrived to the square Shibankova doctors of "first aid" said death.

The second wounded man was taken by private car, but he died on the way to hospital.

One more injured in a shootout was wounded in the leg. At the moment he is being treated in dimitrovskoe the hospital."

Photos of the incidents and 5 videos. One of the photos shows the man shot in the top video in: "Posted by: b | May 11, 2014 2:22:14 PM | 18". He was the person shot in the leg. I'm wondering if these nazis/mercs are using special ammunition. The "OSCE" spies caught earlier carried expanding bullets ("dum-dums").

Posted by: scalawag | May 11, 2014 5:56:24 PM | 55

@scalawag #55:

Both American and German police use hollow point (expanding) ammunition. The idea is that if you use full metal jacket ammunition (the military is banned from using hollow points by the Geneva Convention), the bullet may pass through the body of the "suspect" and hit an innocent bystander. Since mercs are not bound by the Geneva Convention, they probably use hollow points, since they are obviously more lethal. (It is very possible you know all this.)

By the way, you don't need to add "Link to" to your links, since in all browsers I know, it is obvious if something is a link (it is displayed in color, underlined, etc.). :-)

I will try to use Yandex the next time I need to translate something. (I recently got an email account there btw, under a userid I haven't used before.)

Posted by: Demian | May 11, 2014 6:33:58 PM | 56

Philljam effectively mixes good ol' Sovietophobia under my Guardian comment (280 recommends so far) with the Ukraine 'news' story that mainstream propaganda sites are beating us over the head with these days:

Philljam fairleft 11 May 2014 3:35pm

I sense a medal might be winging its way to you very shortly. Congratulations comrade!

Posted by: fairleft | May 11, 2014 6:36:09 PM | 57

All this talk of the "permanent government" and the "Deep State" makes it sound very mysterious. But the only obscurity about it is the means by which the class interests of the ruling class are conveyed to the government of the day.

The idea that the state is actually run not by representatives of the people or direct descendants of the founders of the ruling house, but by those who control the means of production and exchange is very old, long pre-dating Marx.

What strikes me as being of interest-and highlighted in this post of 'b's- is that in times of crisis divisions in the ruling class become deep rifts. With the result that governments not only make the wrong moves but, in taking them, defy interests within the ruling class which are more powerful than those backing the policies taken.

It seems to me that US policy in Ukraine is crude, juvenile and self defeating. And that the more sensible and powerful sections of the ruling class realise it and will act to protect their interests.

Right now that is happening in Germany, determined to maintain relations with its biggest potential trade partner, a resource rich economy, with a highly educated population, desperate for capital investment from a non-American source and strategically poised between Asia and Europe. Reducing America to its pre-Columbian status stranded between two large oceans must be very tempting.

Recall all the talk on this blog, during the aborted US attack on Syria, of the shifting of tectonic plates? When that happens the place to look for earthquakes can be thousands of miles away. Not in the Mediterranean but the Baltic.

Posted by: bevin | May 11, 2014 6:39:32 PM | 58

bevin at 58:

It seems to me that US policy in Ukraine is crude, juvenile and self defeating. And that the more sensible and powerful sections of the ruling class realise it and will act to protect their interests.

Right now that is happening in Germany ...

Unfortunately, much too optimistic. It's trying to happen in Germany, but most of the official action is follow the leader (the U.S.). It's a little early for breaking with the U.S. Give it another 10 years, like Putin is trying to do.

As for the first paragraph above, yes it may be crude/juvenile, but when your media makes sure not to say so most Americans don't notice. And this new cold war, like the old one, and like the invasion of Iraq and the whole 'GWOT' is definitely not self-defeating for the US/NATO military-industrial complex. They've only been self-defeating for the goal of a stable world that doesn't require vast military expenditures. Such a world could easily be achieved by the US: despite all its provocations, it still has no enemies with any substantial military power. But we won't get to that peaceful place if the arms and war makers have anything to say about.

Posted by: fairleft | May 11, 2014 6:54:23 PM | 59

It's astonishing what rude little prick our resident tro-lol is, isn't it? Your personality disorder is getting to be a real bummer around here. And we put up with it for what - the worthless little brain farts like you posted @16?

Thanks, Uncle $cam, for the link. I like Rozoff and think he knows what he is talking about. Corbett I'm less excited about, but the fact that he works with Chossudovsky gives him, to me, enough credibility to give him a listen.

As for Bob in Portland, the idea that Snowden is working for Germany is a theory put out by some on the net. You may find it interesting then. Be warned - to me, this one seems to be just another "US patriot" trying to smear Snowden for the sake of saving the good name of the US. Not that I think Snowden is exactly what he purports to be either...

Posted by: guest77 | May 11, 2014 7:13:58 PM | 60

Uncle $cam @ 3 : Some of us are paying attention, and are NOT payed to deflect and disrupt the relevant. The Corbett podcast is excellent. I for one, had no idea of the real scope of NATO. Monsterous! Thanks.

Posted by: ben | May 11, 2014 8:26:50 PM | 61

@60 guest77 - i don't see it that way. i thought lol responded in a very thoughtful manner @33 to the question put to the board generally.. i thought the response @44 was uncalled for, but hey - it is the written format here and we can't know for sure just what the intent of others are.. it is helpful to always keep this in mind - for me anyway.. others will do what they do.

Posted by: james | May 11, 2014 8:35:00 PM | 62

Remember the Independent poll on world leader preferences where Putin cleaned up?

Курс Путина поддержали 89 процентов немецких телезрителей

Yandex translation.

"Putin's policy course was supported by 89 percent of German viewers"

"German TV channel N-TV on Victory Day, may 9, asked the audience, have understanding to the political course of the President of the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin. Citizens proposed to call two different phones and answer the question. As it turned out, the Russian leader "understand" 89 percent responded citizens of Germany.

The employees of the channel of this reaction did not expect. TV presenter Rommie Arndt said that the results were "somewhat unexpected"and correspondent Dirk Emmerich said in his microblog that puzzled.

At the end of March on the website of the British newspaper The Independent appeared survey. Visitors are encouraged to vote for their favourite world leader. A choice were presented to us President Barack Obama, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, British Prime Minister David Cameron, President of France, Francois Hollande, Vladimir Putin and other politicians.

The absolute majority of users gave preference to the Russian leader at the beginning of April voted 92 percent. On the second place with three percent went Merkel, Obama voted two percent, the percentage gained Cameron and Hollande.

1 may-Deputy head of administration of the President Vyacheslav Volodin said that for the last five months of Putin's rating among Russians has increased more than three times and amounted to 77.5 percent. While in the Crimea, this indicator is equal to 82.4 per cent, in Sevastopol course of the head of state supported by 92 percent of the residents.

Note that the results are very similar to the Independent poll. Imagine the frustration of the west's poor misguided media moguls: "we have a 100 years of scientific and psychological research and practical application under our belts and despite our years of applying our best perception management techniques in demonizing Putin, it results in him wiping the floor with our carefully crafted leaders when compared in public opinion!"

Posted by: scalawag | May 11, 2014 8:39:54 PM | 63

The mother of all conspiracies - Gold Price

First let me tell you that I do not believe that Gold is a speculative high risk high yield investment. During the Roman Empire's time, a senator would spend one ounce of Gold to dress himself for the senate office. Today, by the time you buy shoes, belt, two piece suit, overcoat, scarf, hat, underwear, shirt, tie, watch, cuff links, etc. you might have spent a couple of troy ounces of the shiny metal without being a senator. So, Gold is a secure investment that represents low risk and low yield just like a GIC. But Gold investment won't make you filthy rich unless you own a Gold mine.

However, you must know there are determined people whose mission in life is to keep the price of Gold low so that the fiat money can survive in times of QE. These people are called the Plunge Protection Team (PPT) and they ensure the printable (and US armed forces enforceable) Petrodollar survives its many threats until it collapses under its monstrous unpaid debt.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-11/sunday-gold-smackdown-east-ukraine-independence-edition

The Sunday Gold Smackdown: East Ukraine Independence Edition
Tyler Durden's pictureSubmitted by Tyler Durden on 05/11/2014 19:32 -0400

Ukraine

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2014/05/20140511_gold1.png

...because there's no better time (or fiduciary dutiful moment) than a Sunday night at 650pm ET after the majority of Eastern Ukraine votes to secede to Russia to sell $231.5 million notional worth of gold futures...

And in case you were wondering... no other asset classes reacted in any way like this...

You ought to know that this is all a farce and no physical Gold exchanged hands. This is just a promise to sell Gold in the future. So whoever buys it, buys paper, not physical Gold.

You must also know that the largest producers of Gold are the BRICS' South Africa and Russia. If the market forces were allowed to free float demand and supply it would give the BRICS a lot of power unless the Gold market is manipulated by say: the Plunge Protection Team (PPT) selling future paper contracts.

Posted by: Gold Bug | May 11, 2014 8:57:57 PM | 64

@scalawag #63:

It looks like the Japanese found out about that Independent poll. Putin is now at 61%, with Shinzo Abe at 32%. The others are more or less as they were before. Before, Abe was at 0%.

Posted by: Demian | May 11, 2014 9:07:38 PM | 65


The IMF Bank Job

An exclusive behind the scenes lowdown of one of the most breathtaking cons! It's an allegorical world where Murphy's Law reigns supreme amid the backdrop of an empirical machine and its machinations. It is filled with undercurrents and inexplicable turns, which appears to be an empire gone mad. Critics acclaim, "The IMF Bank Job is exhilarating! It's riveting, nail biting right to the knuckles action!

Posted by: HAHA | May 11, 2014 9:46:06 PM | 66

From Amerika: full support to the anti-fascist resistance in East Ukraine.

Every good American must learn: political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Choose - support fascism in Ukraine or reap the whirlwind in the USA. This is a turning point. The war has come home. No longer will we be forgiven for the violence perpetrated by our government. Today in Ukraine, tomorrow in Germany, New York and Los Angeles.

Power to the people, right on

Posted by: anonymous | May 11, 2014 9:52:30 PM | 67

@scalawag #52:

They are setting up their next propaganda campaign: "the voting was fraudulent because the majority voted for independence, our polls prove the majority was against".

Yeah, lots of headlines about "fraud" and "double voting" now in Google News. But that resentment will probably soon blow over, given that the NY Times is taking this line:

Nearly everyone who cast a ballot appeared to be voting in favor of greater autonomy from the Ukrainian central government in Kiev. Opponents appeared to be staying away from the polls, as many had said they would. The ballot papers that could be seen in transparent ballot boxes in two cities, Donetsk and Slovyansk, were almost all marked yes.

The rebels are talking about another vote in a week, in which the question will be whether you want to join the Russian Federation.

Posted by: Demian | May 11, 2014 10:30:16 PM | 68

It is clear, what the editorial/government line is - FAZ plus six international media companies are trying to push with their "sample poll".

Eine Demonstration der Separatisten

Den Separatisten ist es in der Ost-Ukraine gelungen, die Bevölkerung zu mobilisieren. Nach der hohen Beteiligung an dem Referendum wird es für die Regierung in Kiew nun noch schwieriger, nicht mit „Terroristen“ reden zu wollen.

Translations: A demonstration by the separatists. Separatists in Eastern Ukraine succeeded in mobilizing the population. After the high participation in the referendum the government in Kiew will find it more difficult not to talk with the "terrorists".

In other news Putin has delayed a decision on how to deal with referendum results.

So there is agreement on Angela Merkel's OSCE round table discussions. Remains the CIA and Blackwater/Academi. What do they think they are doing.

Posted by: somebody | May 11, 2014 11:29:45 PM | 69

There is a learning curve involved in the initial study of international affairs, obviously. For people at a certain stage in that learning curve, such alternative analysts of geopolitics as Michel Chossudovsky and Rick Rozoff are valuable, not just as synopticists but also as authoritative confirmations of the fact that everything - absolutely everything - in the standard western presentations of western activity across the world is wrong, is a system of conscious lies. You need that support, mentally, at that stage in the learning curve. Subsequent to that, you reach a point where they become increasingly redundant, because they are not bringing new information but merely recycling the already known. It's clear where the emotional bond to them comes from: it comes from the experience of being intellectually supported at that stage in one's learning development when one needed it. It is after all quite emotionally draining to have to face the world in this demystified way. It's bleak, frightening and so forth.

But there is a perceptible downside with Prof C, I'm afraid. He is a religious man, and the choice of material on Global Research often reflects that fact. It's also a technically poor site, and self-promoting in an irritating way, and addicted to horrible little thumbnail photos, so horrible they remind me of Ynet. But many Russian news sites also use these irritating thumbnail photos. Life is full of small irritants.

In general I find myself in less and less need of pundits, 'authorities', and opinionators. There are a few I still enjoy because of the sheer delirium of their style (Felicity Arbuthnot, for instance, usually but not always still entertains me). Tarpley's weekly World Crisis Radio show is usually though not invariably an entertaining and stimulating listen, for all his obvious limitations, the most relevant of which is this really obtuse endeavour to reach mainstream Dems by pretending that Obama is an innocent surrounded by villainous military and intel schemers who outflank him. I have no need at all of idealisation regarding Obama, or for that matter, Putin.

Anyway, all of the above just reflects where I am in my personal curve. But I will say one thing about the permanent government, and it is this: it's quite well-known I hope that historically, modern state intelligence services in capitalist countries have been run principally by what used to be called 'merchant bankers'. Besides being the possessors of the only power that counts, which is money itself, they are also the possessors or extensive and far-flung private international intelligence services of their own. This is pretty much what successful international banking is all about: knowing who to invest in in any given country and why, and who not to invest in and why. The one thing naturally morphs into the other. Any competent history of British or Usaian intelligence will admit that, right at the outset. These are the people who run things.

On 'deep state' analysis, Peter Dale Scott (another Canadian, BTW) is demanding but absorbing. In a way, he just keeps writing and rewriting the same long long article, bringing new angles, sometimes really obscure and deeply buried, to light. After a while, one's learning curve surpasses him, but his accumulation of detail and his excellent methodology in tracing conspiracy links and establishing their actual probability, is pretty well unique. Where an ordinary writer would just assert a conspiracy link, Scott teases it out with amazing thoroughness. For those who need this.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 11, 2014 11:44:51 PM | 70

Good piece in the LA Times explaining why people voted overwhelmingly for independence, despite recent polls suggesting they would do the contrary:

Opinion polls conducted in April by both foreign and domestic agencies showed a sizable majority — at least 70% even in the eastern regions — opposed to secession from Ukraine or union with Russia. But the recent violence has turned many against the Kiev government…

The free press in America is not dead… yet.

Posted by: Demian | May 12, 2014 12:07:06 AM | 71

Posted by: somebody | May 11, 2014 11:29:45 PM | 69

I also think it was no accident that DER SPIEGEL/BND also published information on Germany's secret ex-SS/Wehrmacht Gladio army in the 1950's for the first time. You have to wonder if those cold war programmes were stopped - or not. Germany's NSU scandal would suggest - not.

As now evident the cold war was not against communism but against Russia, those stay behind armies presumably are still there. There is a twist - Germany's right wing has become pro Putin.

I guess, Germany's government realised how dangerous any "stay behind" left over is for them in the context of Ukraine's Pravy Sektor.

Social Democrats were on the Stay Behind army's watch list. It is likely that after the NSA scandal the german government are examining all aspects of the US/German security cooperation.

In the context of all this the US propagandizing on the "Russian Neo Nazi" threat is funny (irony).

This here is a DER SPIEGEL article on Neo Nazis in Russia from 2012

These men dream of a different Russia, one that is nationalistic, Slavic and doesn't include the Caucasus, which has been part of Russia since 1864. Svetoslav calls this the "separation of existences." He incites hatred against Muslims and distributes a brutal video on the Internet. It depicts a Chechen man slitting the throat of a Russian woman. "Dedicated to the tolerant and the patient," Svetoslav has written under the video.

At protests in Moscow, the black, yellow and white flag of the nationalists can sporadically be seen fluttering next to the banners of the liberal opposition. But if free elections were held nationwide, the right-wing nationalist would probably prevail rather than the democrats favored in the West.

This is the Ukraine mix, no?

And this here is US "progressive" propaganda

and a fair Daily Kos summary of the artificial scandal.

Posted by: somebody | May 12, 2014 12:15:11 AM | 72

@somebody #72:

It is likely that after the NSA scandal the german government are examining all aspects of the US/German security cooperation.

One can only hope. By now, the German intelligence services must be purging at least some of their divisions of US-leaning officers. That is the first step to reacquiring sovereignty. You can't be sovereign if your intelligence services have been penetrated by foreign intelligence services.

I think USG not meeting Merkel halfway on NSA spying was really stupid. Another case of imperial overreach.

As for dKos (I couldn't bear to read the "diary" you linked to; that place is so cognitively inbred), one of the worst Russophobes I have ever encountered was a gay man at dKos. Lesbians have none of the brutal aggressiveness that many gay men exhibit.

Finally, as for Russian neo-Nazis: Britain has its neo-Nazis, too, but neither Britain nor Russia provide fertile breeding ground for that ideology. Both have been successful empires in their different ways, which means that they have little inclination towards resentiment, a necessary condition for right-wing politics. (American Christian conservatives, in contrast, have plenty of that.)

Posted by: Demian | May 12, 2014 12:40:22 AM | 73

Hehe, US Court Ends Ban on Purchasing Russian Rocket Engines; Insists Sales Aren't Covered by Sanctions.

Meanwhile, the Kjiv regime continues its suspension of shipment by its factories of military parts to mother Russia.

Posted by: Demian | May 12, 2014 12:53:46 AM | 74

# 70 Rowan Berkeley thanks for writing about the learning curve. This is a serious and very real aspect of a population's awakening to its government's evil - something I think we all care very deeply about. Self-reflection reminds us all that it takes years to become persuaded of certain perspectives, hundreds of hours of compulsive reading to overturn paradigms and start speaking fresh words and thinking new thoughts out of new understandings, and always new things to discover, old assumptions and received knowledge to transform.

Somehow this concept of the learning curve needs to be made more tangible. Surely there must be some political science on this? We need to be able to celebrate the tiny steps of people we know or hear of beginning to understand something that seems to us now very elementary, but which constitutes in fact the beginning of revolution in the individual mind. We need to know how to help the process, what stage comes next, what to offer, etc.

That's as far as I've gotten with this thought yet. Throwing it out to the thread.

Posted by: Grieved | May 12, 2014 1:40:32 AM | 75

Rowan Berkeley @#70 ...well said. Thank-you.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 12, 2014 1:57:47 AM | 76

Posted by: Demian | May 12, 2014 12:40:22 AM | 73

By now, the German intelligence services must be purging at least some of their divisions of US-leaning officers.

It does not work that way. There was continuity from the the Nazi state to the Western Federal Republic including the Secret Services and the Foreign Office, and the US just took them over as assets against the Soviet Union.
The West German parliament in Bonn for a long time (till they died of natural causes) was shared by people who had been in the Nazi state middle management (the top level got largely razed, though there are exceptions when the CIA was interested in them) with people who had been in (inner, exterior) emigration or the concentration camps. You can guess how they solved it - they did not talk about it, but concentrated on the economy.
Joschka Fischer was the first to try to de-nazify the continuing memory of the German Foreign Service - which was partly revoked by his successor.
You never had "US-leaning officers", you had German right wing nationalists who continued their fight against communism.
According to the law of organizations all the cold war stuff (department, money ...) supposedly survived after the fall of the wall with new (or old) designations. There finally might be a new generation in power to mop it all up, let's keep our fingers crossed.

Posted by: somebody | May 12, 2014 2:10:35 AM | 77

Posted by: Grieved | May 12, 2014 1:40:32 AM | 75

"We need to be able to celebrate the tiny steps of people we know or hear of beginning to understand something that seems to us now very elementary, but which constitutes in fact the beginning of revolution in the individual mind."

Well said, and we need to do it without sounding condescending and with a humility that admits what we don't know and when we've been wrong.

Posted by: fairleft | May 12, 2014 2:19:25 AM | 78

Initial referendum results:

Participation:
Donetzk - 74%
Lugansk - 81%

For independence:
Donetzk - 89,7%

Posted by: Harry | May 12, 2014 2:35:48 AM | 79

@somebody #77:

Yeah, I had misgivings about the "purged" part, but you can't edit posts here once you've made them. ;-)

Thank you for your corrections/clarifications.

But surely the US has managed to impose its ideology on German elites independently of anything having to do with German right-wing politics? The main example of that is the FRG's adoption of neoliberalism; privatizing the rail road and the post office, for example. That has nothing to do with German conservative economics, which sees the state as playing a leading role in the economy.

If this Anglophone/Atlanticist ideology was imprinted on German economic elites, in a process having nothing to do with the Nazi legacy, why could the same thing not have happened with the German intelligence community? (As I'm sure you know, Americans like to think of their intelligence bureaucracy as a "community", for some reason.)

Posted by: Demian | May 12, 2014 2:42:26 AM | 80

To be fair, I didnt expected such huge voting crowds, South-east in general looked quite passive in recent months. It seems massacres where the tipping point, as if Kiev deliberately wanted for south-east to secede, or to force Russia's hand to intervene, or both.

Posted by: Harry | May 12, 2014 2:49:41 AM | 81

Posted by: Demian | May 12, 2014 2:42:26 AM | 80

That is the hope, that today's German conservatives are different from the old right wing anti-communist nationalist elites.

There is another thought: Germany's right wing generally had to replace anti-communism with another raison-d'etre, not just the secret services and NATO to find other wedge issues and create tension.

So out of a sudden the new issues were multi culturalism, double citizenship, Islam.

On the economy there is agreement from left to right that the state is the most ineffective tool to run a business. There is disagreement on the amount of transfer payments, taxes and the groups that should receive/pay them and on the industries that should receive state support or not - that is all. German railways, telecommunications and energy business may be theoretically privatized, in effect - in Germany - they are largely monopolies with now international range whose size and wide spread shares protect them from a take over. Siemens is a prime example for it, joke in Germany is that it is more civil service than company.

Posted by: somebody | May 12, 2014 3:34:48 AM | 82

plus 82) Oh yes, and our former conservative president, Wulff, was shot down with a dubious court case, involving a supposed bribe of 700 Euro after he had pronounced that "Islam is part of Germany" to be replaced with an ex GDR anti communist pastor. I am inclined to put that in the same file as the strange death of John Paul I and the murder of Aldo Moro.

Posted by: somebody | May 12, 2014 3:47:18 AM | 83

Stike me what a brave kind of people in east. ukraine, standing up while a military keep killing them, voting et.c.
And most of all, have hardly used any violence in return.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 12, 2014 3:52:26 AM | 84

Rowan,70, wonderful comment. Reminder of the beginning of my own learning curve decades ago.

Grieved, same. Thank you both for fine comments.

Posted by: okie farmer | May 12, 2014 3:58:56 AM | 85

Awful reporting from NYT on referendum:

Separatist Vote in East Ukraine Is Chaotic and Condemned

By ANDREW E. KRAMER

Referendums conducted in the hope of legitimizing the secessionists’ cause unfolded in an atmosphere that was alternately celebratory and violent, and were criticized as unfair by the government in Kiev and by international observers.

Posted by: okie farmer | May 12, 2014 4:05:55 AM | 86

Harry

You are right, nato, eu, us, kiev just sit and wait for Russia to intevene right now, thats the only goal behind these massacres. RT report new killed today, for what reason?

Posted by: Anonymous | May 12, 2014 4:27:39 AM | 87

@okie farmer #86:

You don't give a link to the NYT article. But I gave a link to a NYT article in #68. And that article stated: "Nearly everyone who cast a ballot appeared to be voting in favor of greater autonomy from the Ukrainian central government in Kiev." So I would not call NYT reporting on the referendum "awful". You just have to go past the pomposity and melodrama of the NY Times style of reporting.

Posted by: Demian | May 12, 2014 4:28:35 AM | 88

Demian, did you watch the video? How many polling stations did the reporter have to go to to find one person voting? The intertube was full of pics and video of long lies of people.

Posted by: okie farmer | May 12, 2014 4:48:34 AM | 89

Asia Times Online :: Putin displays Ukraine chess mastery

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-090514.html

Posted by: Paty Kerry | May 12, 2014 5:03:42 AM | 90

Posted by: Anonymous | May 12, 2014 4:27:39 AM | 87

It is a mix, Pravy Sektor need the conflict like the CIA as they would be irrelevant in a peaceful democratic Ukraine.

Posted by: somebody | May 12, 2014 5:15:33 AM | 91

# 86, 88, 89

It's the same article. Right below the paragraphs cited is this gem:

But the voting took place in such a raw state of lawlessness that no one other than the organizers and perhaps their Russian patrons seemed likely to accept the results as a democratic expression of the voters’ will.

The comments are why I went there, another thread mentioned how they were tearing up the writer's reporting. If you sort by Reader's Pick you get the most up-voted comments, and in the first dozen comments and even long before that you get a superb counter-article vastly more cogent and informative than the disinfo the author wrote.

I was glad to see an example of what we've been hearing about the pro-US press all over the world with the Ukraine, that the comments are savaging the propaganda pieces.

Posted by: Grieved | May 12, 2014 5:30:33 AM | 92

sorry, should have cited the NYT story:
Ukraine Vote on Separation Held in Chaos

Disgusting headline. I hope we can hold their craven propaganda over these media outlets' heads some day and finish off their reputations forever.

Posted by: Grieved | May 12, 2014 5:38:48 AM | 93

Now it is on - the end of Ukraine.

PM Orban calls for autonomy for ethnic Hungarians beyond borders

Posted by: somebody | May 12, 2014 5:54:08 AM | 94

somebody

Yes but not only them, but kiev regime need russians, just like hitler needed jews.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 12, 2014 5:59:26 AM | 95

Re US mercenaries in Ukraine:

RT have a quite good story here: '400 US mercenaries deployed on ground' in Ukraine military op"

Posted by: William Bowles | May 12, 2014 6:04:58 AM | 96

Re US mercenaries in Ukraine:

RT have a quite good story here: '400 US mercenaries deployed on ground' in Ukraine military op"

Posted by: William Bowles | May 12, 2014 6:06:58 AM | 97


Moon of Alabama Brecht quote

« Alastair Crooke On Ukraine | Main
May 11, 2014
Ukraine: Another German "Leak" Against U.S. Policy

A week ago I sensed that there is resistance in Europe and especially in offical Germany against the U.S. led aggressive campaign against Russia:

Even the most staunch transatlantic tabloid in Germany, Bild, today reports (original here) that the CIA and FBI with dozens of agents are running the show in Kiev. The report is based on "German security sources" which lets me believe that the German government is looking for ways to counter Washington's moves.

More intentional "leaks" were published today in the same media, the high circulation Bild am Sonntag print edition. According to this online summary (in German by the Bild sister paper Welt ) two different issues were revealed:

According to the German secret service BND some 400 U.S. mercenaries from the company Academi, previously Blackwater, are leading and coordinating with the Ukrainian army and police in operations against "guerrilla" in east Ukraine.
According to NSA sniffing on Russian military communication, released to the BND, Russian pilots were ordered to violate Ukrainian airspace.

Both claims are sourced to BND security briefings in the German chancellery.

The first claim seems plausible as it confirms accusations made earlier in several Russian media. Commentators in the German media seem to accept it even while expressing some doubts about the second claim. Hardly anyone in Germany today believes anything claimed by the NSA :-).

Within just seven days two significant "leaks" to Bild, a chancellor Merkel supporting and staunchly transatlantic paper, blame the United States for the trouble in Ukraine. These "leaks" must have come from the chancellery and, them being true or not, confirm that there is some antagonism in the central political and security branches in Berlin towards the U.S. plans.

We can only hope that such antagonism will also find ways to express itself in political results restraining the U.S. from inciting civil war in Ukraine and a possible huge conflagration in Europe.

Posted by b on May 11, 2014 at 12:19 PM | Permalink
Comments

As Ukraine remains on a knife-edge of military tension, the NATO forces continue their Eastern European expansion and military provocations. In this must-listen interview, Rick Rozoff of Stop NATO International breaks down the history of NATO’s global partnership program, its decades-long build-up in Eastern Europe, the people and organizations in whom the fate of the world is increasingly hanging in the balance, and the small glimmer of hope that an informed, galvanized public can derail this headlong rush to war.

Interview">http://www.corbettreport.com/interview-881-rick-rozoff-calls-out-the-nato-warmongers/">Interview 881 – Rick Rozoff Calls Out the NATO Warmongers

You can't un-know ...

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 11, 2014 12:30:02 PM | 1

thanks b. you have been saying this for a while now, but i thought it was mostly due the fact you live in germany. we are reliant on what others share and we don't usually get to read/hear about a more german perspective. thanks for articulating your views here.

Posted by: james | May 11, 2014 12:31:33 PM | 2

Interview 881 – Rick Rozoff Calls Out the NATO Warmongers

Highly recommended ...

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 11, 2014 12:31:55 PM | 3

Actually, you also find amazing stuff in the US Main Stream Media

Boston Globe - Ukraine regions hold sovereignty vote

Moscow and many in Ukraine’s east denounce the new government as a nationalist junta and allege that it intends to trample on the rights of eastern Ukraine’s Russian-speakers.

More than 30 people have been reported killed since Ukrainian forces began mounting offensives to retake some eastern cities now under control of the insurgents.

Turchynov’s chief of staff, Serhiy Pashynskyi, pledged Sunday that the government would seek to avoid further civilian casualties. ‘‘We will not engage in street fights in Slovyansk or elsewhere because that will lead to dozens of unnecessary deaths,’’ he told reporters.

It is over.

Posted by: somebody | May 11, 2014 12:36:15 PM | 4

@4 somebody.. glad to see they are being defined as "civilian casualties" as opposed to the "20 terrorists destroyed" quote i read the other day.. "murdering innocent people" would be the most accurate, but i doubt that we will be reading that in any amerikan rag any time soon. it only works that way when the cia are working to overthrow regimes..

Posted by: james | May 11, 2014 12:50:42 PM | 5

It is like a breach in a dyke now.

Der Spiegel - in German - Hatred of Kiev drives Eastern Ukrainians to the voting booths

Posted by: somebody | May 11, 2014 12:58:03 PM | 6

Talking about a breach in a dyke. Just in from Teheran

"We are worried about the future security of Europe," he said.

"We won the game in Syria easily," said Amir Mohebbian, a conservative strategist and government adviser. "The US does not understand Syria. The Americans wanted to replace Assad, but what was the alternative? All they have done is encourage radical groups and made the borders less safe.

"We accept the need for change in Syria – but gradually. Otherwise, there is chaos," Mohebbian added.

Damn Iranians you are supposed to be subtle. This is cross gloating.

Posted by: somebody | May 11, 2014 1:27:54 PM | 7

I dont think we need the German secret service the BND
to tell us that US mercenaries are running the show in Kiev.

Everyone on the planet, except perhaps those in North Korea,
already knows that for some time.

Posted by: chris m | May 11, 2014 1:35:48 PM | 8

The author of How the revival of German militarism was prepared links to New Power, New Responsibility, a chilling prescription for a new US/German Axis in the West by the Stiftung Wissenschaft und Politik and the The German Marshall Fund that seems pretty terrifying to me.

I know that b and others keep pointing to resistance to such undertakings by 'the German people' ... but the people everywhere seem to be in decline and governments in the ascendant. The US/UK/German MSM certainly were/are out of popular control and under control of these same organizations that run these governments.

I would be very happy to read of the Germans and Brits taking over their governments and putting an end to this nightmare ... but I'm afraid that, like us Americans, they're acting more like 'subjects' than 'citizens'.

Posted by: john francis lee | May 11, 2014 1:40:50 PM | 9

@8 chris m.. while this is true, it helps to get some confirmation on a broader level thru the media which often seems the last to come around to stating a bold fact when it has been mostly conjecture previously..

Posted by: james | May 11, 2014 1:45:26 PM | 10

i strongly recommend this video, posted by Noirette in the last thread
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93b7oDqaHr0
simply amazing... an MP gets beaten at the new "Ukrainian" parliament

Posted by: Mina | May 11, 2014 1:47:23 PM | 11

I don't think the "dyke" has broken by any means. Der Spiegel - in English is still lock step with the authoritarians of the US "Deep state"

I live in a city completely dominated by Obama's most ardent followers and their media "informed opinion" is that Obama is a victim in all of this. They also believe, almost to a person, that Putin is a monster in the vein of Hitler bent on world domination.

Hillary Clinton stating that Putin is as evil as Hitler, while nonsensical to sane people, is the overwhelming accepted by the majority of this city's "liberals".

Oddly, my friends in the southern city to which I am moving, think we are provoking the Russians for no good reason. I presume the difference lies in having been "burned" by Bush [their expression], having served in Uniform...and not trusting anything Hillary says informs this opinion.

At some point this nation is going to have to grips with the fact that Obama-supporters/"liberals" love war....so long as they, their friends and children don't serve. Obama is responsible for 4 wars by my count and this last war of Obama's looks to be a war that will produce offspring for decades.

Posted by: S Brennan | May 11, 2014 1:52:19 PM | 12

"I dont think we need the German secret service the BND
to tell us that US mercenaries are running the show in Kiev."

I could not disagree more. The mainstream media, from which 95% of citizens still get their information, will not print the this sort of thing without a reputable source, even if all of us knew or suspected it. It is a big deal and highly useful if such information crosses over into the mainstream papers and TV stations.

I note that the media in Austria bring photos of the crowds voting for independence, but the reporting is still pretty slanted (e.g. the journalist sent by the "Presse" mainly reports human interest stories from disgruntled pro-Kiev supporters in the East, young women who claim they are afraid and intimidated. The papers do report the Blackwater/Academi claim but imply it is only a rumour and probably untrue.

This article in the strongly pro-Kiev Standard does show a more nuanced view, expressed by a veteran Socialist member of the EP, about to retire, who travelled to the Ukraine at the end of April, and now says there are extremists on all sides and the Kiev government has no clear line: http://derstandard.at/1399507077100/Hannes-Swoboda-nach-Ukraine-Besuch-Extremisten-auf-beiden-Seiten

Posted by: Austrian | May 11, 2014 1:52:33 PM | 13

Wasnt there any protection at the election? Wasnt this a bit naive?

Posted by: Anonymous | May 11, 2014 1:56:55 PM | 14

Ref link posted by Somebody from the Guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/11/syria-crisis-iran-assad-won-war-tehran
They can's distinguish between an Iranian cleric and an Orthodox Christian at the Guardian? (see the pic)

Posted by: Mina | May 11, 2014 2:14:26 PM | 15

I would be very happy to read of the Germans and Brits taking over their governments and putting an end to this nightmare ... but I'm afraid that, like us Americans, they're acting more like 'subjects' than 'citizens'.

Posted by: john francis lee | May 11, 2014 1:40:50 PM | 9

Well, regarding the Brits, Canadians, and all other British Commonwealth types: they ARE "subjects" :)

Subjects of Her Royal Majesty Elizabeth Regina who styles herself as "EIIR"

Posted by: lol | May 11, 2014 2:16:20 PM | 16

House grilled Nuland over US’ Cooperation with Neo-Nazis in Ukraine

A two-hour hearing of US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland at the House Foreign Affairs Committee over the Obama administration’s and the US’ role in the developments in Ukraine nailed down Nuland over the United States overt cooperation with and use of neo-Nazis. Nuland tried to dodge questions, explained US plans for Ukraine and told the Committee outright lies about Kiev having “upheld the obligations of the Geneva agreement”. Nuland omitted that Kiev has mobilized Ukraine’s military forces and the presence of large contingents of Ukrainian troops near the Russian border.

Hard times covering-up cooperation with neo-Nazis. It becomes increasingly difficult for the Obama administration and the corporate US press to cover-up the fact that the main driving force behind the coup in Ukraine are neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists, supported by the US.

More extended coverage in my diary - Confrontational: Carter & Mujahideen; Obama & Neo-nazis.

In Israel, Haaretz and Yediot reported on a speech by Amos Oz. Story in Tikun Olam – Settler Price Taggers are “Hebrew Neo-Nazis”.

Posted by: Oui | May 11, 2014 2:21:06 PM | 17

"Krasnoarmeysk People executed for wanting to vote in a referendum. "

Video 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4joK6D_-Wc
Video 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtx-JkMwKWU

The Associated Press talks of "guardsman" against "insurgents"
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ukraine-guardsmen-open-fire-crowd

The "guardsman" are Right Sektor nazis who closed down a poll station and people who wanted to vote and protested were simply gunned down.

At least 1 dead and several wounded.

Posted by: b | May 11, 2014 2:22:14 PM | 18

"I dont think we need the German secret service the BND
to tell us that US mercenaries are running the show in Kiev.

"Everyone on the planet, except perhaps those in North Korea,
already knows that for some time."

I, too, disagree. Confirmation for another source is always useful. After all the crudity and crassness with which Obama and his gang do these things is counter intuitive: reasonable people find hypocrisy at this level hard to believe.

By the way your derogatory reference to "North Korea" suggests that you are saturated in the sickly Kool Ade of imperialist propaganda.

john francis lee: I suspect that "b' is not suggesting that popular opinion lies behind Germany's ambivalence about the US policy in Ukraine. Much more important is the ruling class's realisation that German industry and commerce is deeply involved in trade and good relations with Russia.

Posted by: bevin | May 11, 2014 2:23:00 PM | 19

Mina @11

It seems the rightist Ukrainian MP with the pony tail (about 1:10 in) hasn't changed his behaviour.

Mind you, a female MP on the speaker's side shows some guts pushing and punching one of the attackers (about 1:20)!

Posted by: Yonatan | May 11, 2014 2:29:32 PM | 20

The Hill pretends to live in a world without leaks
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/09/us/politics/obama-policy-bans-employee-use-of-leaked-material.html?_r=1

Posted by: Mina | May 11, 2014 2:35:18 PM | 21

@ S Brennan (12):

An awful lot of people will back a war, or at least passively acquiesce to one, if it's properly marketed at their demographic--even liberals.

Ever since Putin outed himself as a Christian and 'homophobe', the American media seems to have been on a tear, portraying him as some sort of phalangist dictator. I've long had the suspicion that the neo-cons were preparing for another move against him, and realizing that the Tea Party types probably wouldn't be too excited at the prospect of going to war against a 'fellow' Christian, they thought they should attack Putin from the left, rather than the right. We truly have one party with two names in this country, you see.

By the way, on a more positive note, here's a surprisingly lucid and well-informed piece on solving the Ukraine crisis from Anatol Lieven:

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/may/05/ukraine-only-way-to-peace/?insrc=hpss

Is the establishment starting to see reason? Or is Lieven just a lone wolf?

Posted by: James Patrick | May 11, 2014 2:41:43 PM | 22

National Guard shooting reported in #Krasnoarmiisk near Donetsk.

Petr Shelomovskiy @stopnarcotics • 26 min
The locals tried to speak English to the armed men in #Krasnoarmiisk!

One person killed, several wounded. Original report here with YouTube video's.

Posted by: Oui | May 11, 2014 2:53:46 PM | 23

Oops! Missed report by b at #18

Posted by: Oui | May 11, 2014 2:55:04 PM | 24

Civilins are getting killed because they want to vote, and we have the pathetic west support the massacres, wtf is going on?!

Posted by: Anonymous | May 11, 2014 3:07:07 PM | 25

Cui bono.

I have suggested that Snowden's leaks most helped Germany. I further believed that Snowden is either working for Germany, or more likely, a Nazi wing inside the US permanent government. If you go back to when his story was breaking his initial revelations were timed to coincide with Obama's attempts at diplomacy. Merkel had no problems mentioning the NSA mess in her joint presser with Obama last week.

It seems like there is a separation between Germany and the US in Ukraine as far as keeping secrets, and it seems that the cycle is that a story is leaked, the US (State Dept., White House or CIA) deny it, and then it is confirmed by someone leaking in Germany's BND et al.

Here in America Cold War buttons still can be pushed, and the demonization of Putin is still working, but the vast majority of Americans don't want to get dragged into Ukraine (though the US has been operating there covertly for the last 70 years). From economics alone it appears that Ukraine will be unraveling when summer turns to fall. The perfect time for bad publicity for Obama. So the people in the permanent government farther to the right of Obama will score points in the US midterms and liberals will be discouraged and stay home.

Posted by: Bob In Portland | May 11, 2014 3:15:51 PM | 26

@12

"I live in a city completely dominated by Obama's most ardent followers and their media "informed opinion" is that Obama is a victim in all of this. They also believe, almost to a person, that Putin is a monster in the vein of Hitler bent on world domination."

I have found Obama's 'most ardent followers' to consistently ignore any criticism of him... never thought I would see fellow 'liberals' so stuck in cognitive dissonance. I have given up... on them. No longer discuss anything with them. To me, they are as bad, or worse than the Republicans who consistently supported Dubya.

The same appears to hold true for 'liberal Zionists' (now there's an oxymoron if ever there was one!)

It becomes more impossible these days to label any individual or group politically - the definitions no longer seem to be the same for those one is conversing with -

Posted by: crone | May 11, 2014 3:19:41 PM | 27

Posted by: Mina | May 11, 2014 2:14:26 PM | 15

I would read the image as a subtle comment - Assad as the protector of Christians, there are hardly any left, I hear, in Iraq.

Posted by: john francis lee | May 11, 2014 1:40:50 PM | 9

The Stiftung und Wissenschaft think tank paper is interesting, its context is that it was done in conjunction with the German Marshall Fund of the United States.
Basically it states that Germany should diversify economic dependencies for political independence and remain allied to "like minded" partners in preference to "emerging powers" and take more of a leadership role in this alliance as the United States intend to step back.

Let's see what German party programmes of the leading coalition say: German Social Democrats want peace, disarmament and weapons control, and German Christian Democrats :-)) values, interets, targets

values: human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, due process, human and minority right
lasting, peaceful and just order in Europe and the world
interest: transatlantic partnership (free trade zone) and strategic partnership with Brazil, India, China and Russia, Russia is considered decisive for European security and will remain most important energy provider

Basically the neocons tried to pressure a pudding into shaping up. Forget it.

Posted by: somebody | May 11, 2014 3:36:03 PM | 28

@27 crone, obviously anyone who reaches the White House is up to his or her neck in the permanent government. That doesn't mean that there aren't conflicting elements within the US's permanent government, or that parts of the government aren't trying to sabotage the sitting President. After all, it is absolutely clear that JFK was killed in a coup. Nixon's Watergate scandal was littered with CIA operatives and was reported in the press by intelligence agents (examine Bob Woodward's history). Remember the October Surprise, and the failed rescue mission of the American hostages in Iran was run military people who would show up in Reagan's government, like Oliver North.

It does no good to merely shout "Obama Obama" like the American press yells "Putin Putin".

Posted by: Bob In Portland | May 11, 2014 3:37:18 PM | 29

@26 "So the people in the permanent government farther to the right of Obama will score points in the US midterms and liberals will be discouraged and stay home."

Oh sure....they will score points by saying Obama wasn't tough enough. The people in the 'permanent government' hate Putin even more than the 'liberals'.

Posted by: dh | May 11, 2014 3:41:52 PM | 30

Can anyone see my post at 1 & 3? I'm surprised, no one has listened to it, or commented on it, as it's the meta-narrative of all of this Ukraine, business and so much more...

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 11, 2014 3:42:02 PM | 31

Basically it states that Germany should diversify economic dependencies for political independence and remain allied to "like minded" [Zio-US Empire] partners in preference to "emerging powers" [Russia] and take more of a leadership role in this alliance as the United States intend to step back.

Posted by: somebody | May 11, 2014 3:36:03 PM | 28

so basically it sounds like the message from the US to the Germans is:

"Let's you and him fight!"

Posted by: lol | May 11, 2014 3:47:38 PM | 32

Can anyone see my post at 1 & 3? I'm surprised, no one has listened to it, or commented on it, as it's the meta-narrative of all of this Ukraine, business and so much more...

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 11, 2014 3:42:02 PM | 31

just my 2 cents: didn't listen to it, mainly cos both Corbett and Rozoff on their own just bore me, and I suspect i'd find that listening to the 2 of them together in one interview, rabbiting away to their hearts content, would be excruciating.

Having sampled both their outputs once or twice, a long time ago, I noticed that they both usually take a very long time and a lot of words to say what could be said in a few sentences.


And tbh from the excerpt you posted @1, it's doesn't sound like anything most people here don't already know, and have known for quite some time

Posted by: lol | May 11, 2014 3:56:13 PM | 33

Now CIA brennan admit himself he was in kiev. What he did there, oh just walking around....moron.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 11, 2014 4:06:12 PM | 34

German propoganda news reel 1944-1945 period http://vimeo.com/94031326> Ukraine gets eaten alive by the Reich

Posted by: rouge | May 11, 2014 4:07:48 PM | 35

http://www.worldcrunch.com/opinion-analysis/europe-039-s-extreme-right-and-left-united-in-support-of-putin/russia-extremism-nationalism-ukraine-conflict/c7s15880/#.U2_VpqHD-Ul


Eurasian Socialist Unity Against Amer-Israeli imperialism!

Posted by: amspirnational | May 11, 2014 4:08:36 PM | 36

can you imagine these eastern ukrainian patriots organizing raffles, you know, like a case of stolichnaya gold to the guy who brings one of these blackwater motherfuckers in alive? i can.

Posted by: john | May 11, 2014 4:12:12 PM | 37

FAZ - in German - Huge majority expected in Donetzk referendum

Die Mehrheit im Gebiet Donezk hat möglicherweise für die „Staatliche Eigenständigkeit“ der Region gestimmt. Das ist das Ergebnis einer Stichprobenbefragung durch den Korrespondenten der F.A.Z. und sechs weiterer internationaler Medien. Alles deutet auf eine überwältigende Mehrheit für eine Abtrennung von der Ukraine hin.

Translation: Sample polls by correspondents of FAZ and six other internatial media companies point to a overwhelming majority for independence from Ukraine. Most Donezk citizens seem to have intended to take part in the referendum.

Posted by: somebody | May 11, 2014 4:12:57 PM | 38

Maybe eastern ukraine should call in some cossacks and chechens to defend themselves against the american mercenary killers?

Posted by: Anonymous | May 11, 2014 4:19:06 PM | 39

bevin@19

I agree that the capture of an American mercenary would collapse the wall of propaganda that allows America’s cognitive dissonance to continue. The problem is that they are trained and paid not to be taken. There are Russian agents in Ukraine but they’ve lived their whole lives there. So far Russia has not made any serious mistakes like infiltrating regular ground troops.

Thanks to MoA and the links we have a fairly good idea of the goal of global war being pursued by the neo-conservative Obama Administration. But, most everyone only gets lies from the media and unfortunately too many people invested their hope and beliefs in his election to admit that their government supports neo-nazis and assists in the killing of civilians and pregnant women.

Bob In Portland@29

The neo-conservatives may have started the Ukraine Crisis with a little help from Plutocrat funded NGOs but the May 6th Odessa Horror and attempted pacification of Russian speaking majority provinces occurred after the visits to Kiev by John Brennan and Joe Biden in mid-April. Corporate media and the Obama Administration have ignored calls for a neutral federated Ukraine which would stop the incipient Civil War in Europe right now.

Posted by: VietnamVet | May 11, 2014 4:21:00 PM | 40

Vietnam Vet @40

My guess is the mercenaries will be used as trainers and kept well away from action. After all, there are plenty of expendable neo-Nazi wannabes prepared to do the dirty work - and for nothing or peanuts. I guess any existing military training grounds in the west would be a good place to look.

Posted by: Yonatan | May 11, 2014 4:44:10 PM | 41

I have suggested that Snowden's leaks most helped Germany. I further believed that Snowden is either working for Germany,

Well that's one I haven't heard before. How did you arrive at that conclusion? I read the rest of your comment and didn't see anything relating to how you would arrive at the conclusion that he's working for the Germans,

or more likely, a . . . wing inside the US permanent government.

Well yeah - that's something I could get behind, indeed I've pushed the same idea here several times, and it usually results in the C.A.C.L. posse, the Venerable Old Queens of Ass-Clownia, here getting all apoplectic. (But then getting all apoplectic when someone says something original or intelligent seems to be part of their shtick)

Could you define please what you mean when you refer to 'permanent Gov'? The Intel-part (or, more likely imho, a possibly-rogue/possibly-not subsection] or something else? (eg: Intel-part (or possibly-rogue/possibly-not subsection) + [something else]" or "Something other than the Intel-part")

Personally though I think the 'Nazi' insertion there is kinda silly, since they all seem a a bit "Nazi-ish", but whatever floats your boat

Posted by: lol | May 11, 2014 4:52:01 PM | 42

above comment in response to "Bob In Portland" @ 29

Posted by: lol | May 11, 2014 4:53:38 PM | 43

Nice deflection there, @ #33 ... who paid you to obfuscate?

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 11, 2014 4:53:39 PM | 44

Nice deflection there, @ #33 ... who paid you to obfuscate?

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 11, 2014 4:53:39 PM | 44

Your mom - she said you were spending too much time on the Net and needed to get your ass the f*ck out of her basement :)

Posted by: lol | May 11, 2014 4:55:07 PM | 45

@somebody #38:

Hehe, one of the correspondents who carried out that poll works for the Washington Post. I wonder if we'll see at least a blog post at the Post about that poll. All one finds in the latest story from the Post is that "Polls have indicated that most residents of eastern Ukraine would prefer to stay part of that country."

Posted by: Demian | May 11, 2014 5:03:22 PM | 46

@Demian #46:

Stupid me. I just search the Post story for "poll", instead of reading it. Its second paragraph says: "The vast majority appeared to be voting in favor of distancing themselves from the central government in Kiev." So I guess that little poll they did did get into the story after all.

Posted by: Demian | May 11, 2014 5:15:26 PM | 47

From Zerohedge: 400 Blackwater Mercs Deployed In Ukraine Against Separatists, German Press Reports

...However what is certainly surprising and far more interesting, is the persistent attempts by the German press to discredit none other than their biggest "Developed world" ally, the US. It is almost as if someone (a quite wealthy and powerful someone) has material interests that diverge with those of the Obama administration, and hence converge with those of Putin. Alongside the emerging China-Russia axis, keeping tabs on just how close to Russia Germany is willing to get, is easily the most notable story in the entire Ukraine conflict.

Posted by: Frank | May 11, 2014 5:18:23 PM | 48

@45 - lol! re you @42 comment. i think the permanent gov't is some sort of financial nucleus.. i don't really know how it works, or who runs it but i think that is what is driving much of the bullshit around the globe and reason for a lot of unnecessary wars.. my simple idea on this is that war=money. thus the need for perpetual war, or preparation for war.. i think russia has found a way and/or are working towards finding more ways to express independence outside of this financial plutocracy.. that to my mind is the big threat that russia poses - having their own financial autonomy.. it seems that can't be allowed to happen.. it reminds me of a pyramid scheme or financial ponzi scheme expressed across the planet. feel free to shot my theory down anyone. i am receptive to this as it is conjecture on my part.

Posted by: james | May 11, 2014 5:23:58 PM | 49

This was fast :-D

Posted by: Fran | May 11, 2014 5:28:09 PM | 50

@Frank #48:

Another case of the Western media confirming what the Russian media had reported months before.

Posted by: Demian | May 11, 2014 5:32:36 PM | 51

Posted by: Demian | May 11, 2014 5:03:22 PM | 46

"Polls have indicated that most residents of eastern Ukraine would prefer to stay part of that country."

Yeah, when I checked what the western manure merchants had to say earlier, that was a common theme, that 70% would vote no. They are setting up their next propaganda campaign: "the voting was fraudulent because the majority voted for independence, our polls prove the majority was against". The other main theme is the easterners are being very naughty, dumb children because they are not listening to daddy west.

Link to Большинство жителей Донецкой области проголосовали за независимость

Yandex translation.

"Most of the residents of the Donetsk region voted for independence"

"According to preliminary data, the overwhelming majority of voters in the Donetsk region voted in a referendum for independence in the region, according to the Central election Commission of Donetsk national Republic.

"Began the counting of votes. On average, out of every thousand only one against it," said Sunday the representative of the Central election Commission. He explained that the preliminary turnout in Donetsk oblast has exceeded 90%, informs "Interfax".

On Sunday in Donetsk and Lugansk regions held a referendum, organized by the supporters of federalization. The turnout in the Lugansk region according to the latest data has reached 80%. In Slavyansk, the turnout was over 70%.

In Krasnoarmeysk polling stations closed early due to life-threatening voters and employees of the electoral Commission by nazvanii, while the turnout was 77,08%.

"Employees of the electoral Commission managed to evacuate the ballot box, subscription lists, lists of voters and printing", - clarified the CEC head of the Donetsk Republic of Roman Lygin.

Before that, it became known that the armed men seized the building of the city Council in Krasnoarmeysk, Donetsk region, where he worked territorial electoral Commission on conducting a referendum on the status of the region, blocking the voting process.

The referendum takes place in a tense atmosphere, as from may 2nd Ukrainian military carry out punitive operations against supporters of federalization in the South-East of the country.

The main centers of resistance are Slavyansk, Kramatorsk, Mariupol and other cities of Donetsk region, as well as Lugansk, where supporters of federalization established control over a part of the state authorities.

Russian President Vladimir Putin offered the Donetsk and Lugansk to postpone the date of the referendum, to create conditions for them, but the leadership DND decided not to change anything and to hold a plebiscite on may 11.

Incidentally, by having the regions most likely to vote for independence go first, their vote will likely inspire more people in the other regions to seek independence.

Posted by: scalawag | May 11, 2014 5:33:37 PM | 52

SYRIA If you haven't seen this article by Sharmine Narwani about the start of the Syria troubles and by implication the start of events in Ukraine, then please check the piece out. Hoping this link has not been posted before here...
http://rt.com/op-edge/157412-syria-hidden-massacre-2011/

Posted by: MIDAN | May 11, 2014 5:35:37 PM | 53

Posted by: Fran | May 11, 2014 5:28:09 PM | 50

LOL

Link to Netanyahu's naughty finger

Posted by: scalawag | May 11, 2014 5:42:07 PM | 54

Link to Двое жителей Красноармейска получили смертельные ранения в результате стрельбы, открытой бойцами батальона «Днепр» (Обновлено)

Yandex translation.

"Two residents of Krasnoarmeysk was fatally wounded in a shooting, an open soldiers of the battalion "Dnepr" (updated)"

"On the square Shibankova in Krasnoarmeysk, exchange of fire. According to eyewitnesses, the men of battalion "Dnepr", which took under protection Krasnoarmeyskaya the city Council, headed car. The way he was blocked by local protesters residents. To ensure passage of the soldiers opened fire. As a result of shooting two residents of Krasnoarmeysk received fatal wounds.

One of the victims died on the spot. As reported by head of the first aid station in Krasnoarmeysk Anatoly Boboshko, who arrived to the square Shibankova doctors of "first aid" said death.

The second wounded man was taken by private car, but he died on the way to hospital.

One more injured in a shootout was wounded in the leg. At the moment he is being treated in dimitrovskoe the hospital."

Photos of the incidents and 5 videos. One of the photos shows the man shot in the top video in: "Posted by: b | May 11, 2014 2:22:14 PM | 18". He was the person shot in the leg. I'm wondering if these nazis/mercs are using special ammunition. The "OSCE" spies caught earlier carried expanding bullets ("dum-dums").

Posted by: scalawag | May 11, 2014 5:56:24 PM | 55

@scalawag #55:

Both American and German police use hollow point (expanding) ammunition. The idea is that if you use full metal jacket ammunition (the military is banned from using hollow points by the Geneva Convention), the bullet may pass through the body of the "suspect" and hit an innocent bystander. Since mercs are not bound by the Geneva Convention, they probably use hollow points, since they are obviously more lethal. (It is very possible you know all this.)

By the way, you don't need to add "Link to" to your links, since in all browsers I know, it is obvious if something is a link (it is displayed in color, underlined, etc.). :-)

I will try to use Yandex the next time I need to translate something. (I recently got an email account there btw, under a userid I haven't used before.)

Posted by: Demian | May 11, 2014 6:33:58 PM | 56

Philljam effectively mixes good ol' Sovietophobia under my Guardian comment (280 recommends so far) with the Ukraine 'news' story that mainstream propaganda sites are beating us over the head with these days:

Philljam fairleft 11 May 2014 3:35pm

I sense a medal might be winging its way to you very shortly. Congratulations comrade!

Posted by: fairleft | May 11, 2014 6:36:09 PM | 57

All this talk of the "permanent government" and the "Deep State" makes it sound very mysterious. But the only obscurity about it is the means by which the class interests of the ruling class are conveyed to the government of the day.

The idea that the state is actually run not by representatives of the people or direct descendants of the founders of the ruling house, but by those who control the means of production and exchange is very old, long pre-dating Marx.

What strikes me as being of interest-and highlighted in this post of 'b's- is that in times of crisis divisions in the ruling class become deep rifts. With the result that governments not only make the wrong moves but, in taking them, defy interests within the ruling class which are more powerful than those backing the policies taken.

It seems to me that US policy in Ukraine is crude, juvenile and self defeating. And that the more sensible and powerful sections of the ruling class realise it and will act to protect their interests.

Right now that is happening in Germany, determined to maintain relations with its biggest potential trade partner, a resource rich economy, with a highly educated population, desperate for capital investment from a non-American source and strategically poised between Asia and Europe. Reducing America to its pre-Columbian status stranded between two large oceans must be very tempting.

Recall all the talk on this blog, during the aborted US attack on Syria, of the shifting of tectonic plates? When that happens the place to look for earthquakes can be thousands of miles away. Not in the Mediterranean but the Baltic.

Posted by: bevin | May 11, 2014 6:39:32 PM | 58

bevin at 58:

It seems to me that US policy in Ukraine is crude, juvenile and self defeating. And that the more sensible and powerful sections of the ruling class realise it and will act to protect their interests.

Right now that is happening in Germany ...

Unfortunately, much too optimistic. It's trying to happen in Germany, but most of the official action is follow the leader (the U.S.). It's a little early for breaking with the U.S. Give it another 10 years, like Putin is trying to do.

As for the first paragraph above, yes it may be crude/juvenile, but when your media makes sure not to say so most Americans don't notice. And this new cold war, like the old one, and like the invasion of Iraq and the whole 'GWOT' is definitely not self-defeating for the US/NATO military-industrial complex. They've only been self-defeating for the goal of a stable world that doesn't require vast military expenditures. Such a world could easily be achieved by the US: despite all its provocations, it still has no enemies with any substantial military power. But we won't get to that peaceful place if the arms and war makers have anything to say about.

Posted by: fairleft | May 11, 2014 6:54:23 PM | 59

It's astonishing what rude little prick our resident tro-lol is, isn't it? Your personality disorder is getting to be a real bummer around here. And we put up with it for what - the worthless little brain farts like you posted @16?

Thanks, Uncle $cam, for the link. I like Rozoff and think he knows what he is talking about. Corbett I'm less excited about, but the fact that he works with Chossudovsky gives him, to me, enough credibility to give him a listen.

As for Bob in Portland, the idea that Snowden is working for Germany is a theory put out by some on the net. You may find it interesting then. Be warned - to me, this one seems to be just another "US patriot" trying to smear Snowden for the sake of saving the good name of the US. Not that I think Snowden is exactly what he purports to be either...

Posted by: guest77 | May 11, 2014 7:13:58 PM | 60

Uncle $cam @ 3 : Some of us are paying attention, and are NOT payed to deflect and disrupt the relevant. The Corbett podcast is excellent. I for one, had no idea of the real scope of NATO. Monsterous! Thanks.

Posted by: ben | May 11, 2014 8:26:50 PM | 61

@60 guest77 - i don't see it that way. i thought lol responded in a very thoughtful manner @33 to the question put to the board generally.. i thought the response @44 was uncalled for, but hey - it is the written format here and we can't know for sure just what the intent of others are.. it is helpful to always keep this in mind - for me anyway.. others will do what they do.

Posted by: james | May 11, 2014 8:35:00 PM | 62

Remember the Independent poll on world leader preferences where Putin cleaned up?

Курс Путина поддержали 89 процентов немецких телезрителей

Yandex translation.

"Putin's policy course was supported by 89 percent of German viewers"

"German TV channel N-TV on Victory Day, may 9, asked the audience, have understanding to the political course of the President of the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin. Citizens proposed to call two different phones and answer the question. As it turned out, the Russian leader "understand" 89 percent responded citizens of Germany.

The employees of the channel of this reaction did not expect. TV presenter Rommie Arndt said that the results were "somewhat unexpected"and correspondent Dirk Emmerich said in his microblog that puzzled.

At the end of March on the website of the British newspaper The Independent appeared survey. Visitors are encouraged to vote for their favourite world leader. A choice were presented to us President Barack Obama, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, British Prime Minister David Cameron, President of France, Francois Hollande, Vladimir Putin and other politicians.

The absolute majority of users gave preference to the Russian leader at the beginning of April voted 92 percent. On the second place with three percent went Merkel, Obama voted two percent, the percentage gained Cameron and Hollande.

1 may-Deputy head of administration of the President Vyacheslav Volodin said that for the last five months of Putin's rating among Russians has increased more than three times and amounted to 77.5 percent. While in the Crimea, this indicator is equal to 82.4 per cent, in Sevastopol course of the head of state supported by 92 percent of the residents.

Note that the results are very similar to the Independent poll. Imagine the frustration of the west's poor misguided media moguls: "we have a 100 years of scientific and psychological research and practical application under our belts and despite our years of applying our best perception management techniques in demonizing Putin, it results in him wiping the floor with our carefully crafted leaders when compared in public opinion!"

Posted by: scalawag | May 11, 2014 8:39:54 PM | 63

The mother of all conspiracies - Gold Price

First let me tell you that I do not believe that Gold is a speculative high risk high yield investment. During the Roman Empire's time, a senator would spend one ounce of Gold to dress himself for the senate office. Today, by the time you buy shoes, belt, two piece suit, overcoat, scarf, hat, underwear, shirt, tie, watch, cuff links, etc. you might have spent a couple of troy ounces of the shiny metal without being a senator. So, Gold is a secure investment that represents low risk and low yield just like a GIC. But Gold investment won't make you filthy rich unless you own a Gold mine.

However, you must know there are determined people whose mission in life is to keep the price of Gold low so that the fiat money can survive in times of QE. These people are called the Plunge Protection Team (PPT) and they ensure the printable (and US armed forces enforceable) Petrodollar survives its many threats until it collapses under its monstrous unpaid debt.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-11/sunday-gold-smackdown-east-ukraine-independence-edition

The Sunday Gold Smackdown: East Ukraine Independence Edition
Tyler Durden's pictureSubmitted by Tyler Durden on 05/11/2014 19:32 -0400

Ukraine

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2014/05/20140511_gold1.png

...because there's no better time (or fiduciary dutiful moment) than a Sunday night at 650pm ET after the majority of Eastern Ukraine votes to secede to Russia to sell $231.5 million notional worth of gold futures...

And in case you were wondering... no other asset classes reacted in any way like this...

You ought to know that this is all a farce and no physical Gold exchanged hands. This is just a promise to sell Gold in the future. So whoever buys it, buys paper, not physical Gold.

You must also know that the largest producers of Gold are the BRICS' South Africa and Russia. If the market forces were allowed to free float demand and supply it would give the BRICS a lot of power unless the Gold market is manipulated by say: the Plunge Protection Team (PPT) selling future paper contracts.

Posted by: Gold Bug | May 11, 2014 8:57:57 PM | 64

@scalawag #63:

It looks like the Japanese found out about that Independent poll. Putin is now at 61%, with Shinzo Abe at 32%. The others are more or less as they were before. Before, Abe was at 0%.

Posted by: Demian | May 11, 2014 9:07:38 PM | 65


The IMF Bank Job

An exclusive behind the scenes lowdown of one of the most breathtaking cons! It's an allegorical world where Murphy's Law reigns supreme amid the backdrop of an empirical machine and its machinations. It is filled with undercurrents and inexplicable turns, which appears to be an empire gone mad. Critics acclaim, "The IMF Bank Job is exhilarating! It's riveting, nail biting right to the knuckles action!

Posted by: HAHA | May 11, 2014 9:46:06 PM | 66

From Amerika: full support to the anti-fascist resistance in East Ukraine.

Every good American must learn: political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Choose - support fascism in Ukraine or reap the whirlwind in the USA. This is a turning point. The war has come home. No longer will we be forgiven for the violence perpetrated by our government. Today in Ukraine, tomorrow in Germany, New York and Los Angeles.

Power to the people, right on

Posted by: anonymous | May 11, 2014 9:52:30 PM | 67

@scalawag #52:

They are setting up their next propaganda campaign: "the voting was fraudulent because the majority voted for independence, our polls prove the majority was against".

Yeah, lots of headlines about "fraud" and "double voting" now in Google News. But that resentment will probably soon blow over, given that the NY Times is taking this line:

Nearly everyone who cast a ballot appeared to be voting in favor of greater autonomy from the Ukrainian central government in Kiev. Opponents appeared to be staying away from the polls, as many had said they would. The ballot papers that could be seen in transparent ballot boxes in two cities, Donetsk and Slovyansk, were almost all marked yes.

The rebels are talking about another vote in a week, in which the question will be whether you want to join the Russian Federation.

Posted by: Demian | May 11, 2014 10:30:16 PM | 68

It is clear, what the editorial/government line is - FAZ plus six international media companies are trying to push with their "sample poll".

Eine Demonstration der Separatisten

Den Separatisten ist es in der Ost-Ukraine gelungen, die Bevölkerung zu mobilisieren. Nach der hohen Beteiligung an dem Referendum wird es für die Regierung in Kiew nun noch schwieriger, nicht mit „Terroristen“ reden zu wollen.

Translations: A demonstration by the separatists. Separatists in Eastern Ukraine succeeded in mobilizing the population. After the high participation in the referendum the government in Kiew will find it more difficult not to talk with the "terrorists".

In other news Putin has delayed a decision on how to deal with referendum results.

So there is agreement on Angela Merkel's OSCE round table discussions. Remains the CIA and Blackwater/Academi. What do they think they are doing.

Posted by: somebody | May 11, 2014 11:29:45 PM | 69

There is a learning curve involved in the initial study of international affairs, obviously. For people at a certain stage in that learning curve, such alternative analysts of geopolitics as Michel Chossudovsky and Rick Rozoff are valuable, not just as synopticists but also as authoritative confirmations of the fact that everything - absolutely everything - in the standard western presentations of western activity across the world is wrong, is a system of conscious lies. You need that support, mentally, at that stage in the learning curve. Subsequent to that, you reach a point where they become increasingly redundant, because they are not bringing new information but merely recycling the already known. It's clear where the emotional bond to them comes from: it comes from the experience of being intellectually supported at that stage in one's learning development when one needed it. It is after all quite emotionally draining to have to face the world in this demystified way. It's bleak, frightening and so forth.

But there is a perceptible downside with Prof C, I'm afraid. He is a religious man, and the choice of material on Global Research often reflects that fact. It's also a technically poor site, and self-promoting in an irritating way, and addicted to horrible little thumbnail photos, so horrible they remind me of Ynet. But many Russian news sites also use these irritating thumbnail photos. Life is full of small irritants.

In general I find myself in less and less need of pundits, 'authorities', and opinionators. There are a few I still enjoy because of the sheer delirium of their style (Felicity Arbuthnot, for instance, usually but not always still entertains me). Tarpley's weekly World Crisis Radio show is usually though not invariably an entertaining and stimulating listen, for all his obvious limitations, the most relevant of which is this really obtuse endeavour to reach mainstream Dems by pretending that Obama is an innocent surrounded by villainous military and intel schemers who outflank him. I have no need at all of idealisation regarding Obama, or for that matter, Putin.

Anyway, all of the above just reflects where I am in my personal curve. But I will say one thing about the permanent government, and it is this: it's quite well-known I hope that historically, modern state intelligence services in capitalist countries have been run principally by what used to be called 'merchant bankers'. Besides being the possessors of the only power that counts, which is money itself, they are also the possessors or extensive and far-flung private international intelligence services of their own. This is pretty much what successful international banking is all about: knowing who to invest in in any given country and why, and who not to invest in and why. The one thing naturally morphs into the other. Any competent history of British or Usaian intelligence will admit that, right at the outset. These are the people who run things.

On 'deep state' analysis, Peter Dale Scott (another Canadian, BTW) is demanding but absorbing. In a way, he just keeps writing and rewriting the same long long article, bringing new angles, sometimes really obscure and deeply buried, to light. After a while, one's learning curve surpasses him, but his accumulation of detail and his excellent methodology in tracing conspiracy links and establishing their actual probability, is pretty well unique. Where an ordinary writer would just assert a conspiracy link, Scott teases it out with amazing thoroughness. For those who need this.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 11, 2014 11:44:51 PM | 70

Good piece in the LA Times explaining why people voted overwhelmingly for independence, despite recent polls suggesting they would do the contrary:

Opinion polls conducted in April by both foreign and domestic agencies showed a sizable majority — at least 70% even in the eastern regions — opposed to secession from Ukraine or union with Russia. But the recent violence has turned many against the Kiev government…

The free press in America is not dead… yet.

Posted by: Demian | May 12, 2014 12:07:06 AM | 71

Posted by: somebody | May 11, 2014 11:29:45 PM | 69

I also think it was no accident that DER SPIEGEL/BND also published information on Germany's secret ex-SS/Wehrmacht Gladio army in the 1950's for the first time. You have to wonder if those cold war programmes were stopped - or not. Germany's NSU scandal would suggest - not.

As now evident the cold war was not against communism but against Russia, those stay behind armies presumably are still there. There is a twist - Germany's right wing has become pro Putin.

I guess, Germany's government realised how dangerous any "stay behind" left over is for them in the context of Ukraine's Pravy Sektor.

Social Democrats were on the Stay Behind army's watch list. It is likely that after the NSA scandal the german government are examining all aspects of the US/German security cooperation.

In the context of all this the US propagandizing on the "Russian Neo Nazi" threat is funny (irony).

This here is a DER SPIEGEL article on Neo Nazis in Russia from 2012

These men dream of a different Russia, one that is nationalistic, Slavic and doesn't include the Caucasus, which has been part of Russia since 1864. Svetoslav calls this the "separation of existences." He incites hatred against Muslims and distributes a brutal video on the Internet. It depicts a Chechen man slitting the throat of a Russian woman. "Dedicated to the tolerant and the patient," Svetoslav has written under the video.

At protests in Moscow, the black, yellow and white flag of the nationalists can sporadically be seen fluttering next to the banners of the liberal opposition. But if free elections were held nationwide, the right-wing nationalist would probably prevail rather than the democrats favored in the West.

This is the Ukraine mix, no?

And this here is US "progressive" propaganda

and a fair Daily Kos summary of the artificial scandal.

Posted by: somebody | May 12, 2014 12:15:11 AM | 72

@somebody #72:

It is likely that after the NSA scandal the german government are examining all aspects of the US/German security cooperation.

One can only hope. By now, the German intelligence services must be purging at least some of their divisions of US-leaning officers. That is the first step to reacquiring sovereignty. You can't be sovereign if your intelligence services have been penetrated by foreign intelligence services.

I think USG not meeting Merkel halfway on NSA spying was really stupid. Another case of imperial overreach.

As for dKos (I couldn't bear to read the "diary" you linked to; that place is so cognitively inbred), one of the worst Russophobes I have ever encountered was a gay man at dKos. Lesbians have none of the brutal aggressiveness that many gay men exhibit.

Finally, as for Russian neo-Nazis: Britain has its neo-Nazis, too, but neither Britain nor Russia provide fertile breeding ground for that ideology. Both have been successful empires in their different ways, which means that they have little inclination towards resentiment, a necessary condition for right-wing politics. (American Christian conservatives, in contrast, have plenty of that.)

Posted by: Demian | May 12, 2014 12:40:22 AM | 73

Hehe, US Court Ends Ban on Purchasing Russian Rocket Engines; Insists Sales Aren't Covered by Sanctions.

Meanwhile, the Kjiv regime continues its suspension of shipment by its factories of military parts to mother Russia.

Posted by: Demian | May 12, 2014 12:53:46 AM | 74

# 70 Rowan Berkeley thanks for writing about the learning curve. This is a serious and very real aspect of a population's awakening to its government's evil - something I think we all care very deeply about. Self-reflection reminds us all that it takes years to become persuaded of certain perspectives, hundreds of hours of compulsive reading to overturn paradigms and start speaking fresh words and thinking new thoughts out of new understandings, and always new things to discover, old assumptions and received knowledge to transform.

Somehow this concept of the learning curve needs to be made more tangible. Surely there must be some political science on this? We need to be able to celebrate the tiny steps of people we know or hear of beginning to understand something that seems to us now very elementary, but which constitutes in fact the beginning of revolution in the individual mind. We need to know how to help the process, what stage comes next, what to offer, etc.

That's as far as I've gotten with this thought yet. Throwing it out to the thread.

Posted by: Grieved | May 12, 2014 1:40:32 AM | 75

Rowan Berkeley @#70 ...well said. Thank-you.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 12, 2014 1:57:47 AM | 76

Posted by: Demian | May 12, 2014 12:40:22 AM | 73

By now, the German intelligence services must be purging at least some of their divisions of US-leaning officers.

It does not work that way. There was continuity from the the Nazi state to the Western Federal Republic including the Secret Services and the Foreign Office, and the US just took them over as assets against the Soviet Union.
The West German parliament in Bonn for a long time (till they died of natural causes) was shared by people who had been in the Nazi state middle management (the top level got largely razed, though there are exceptions when the CIA was interested in them) with people who had been in (inner, exterior) emigration or the concentration camps. You can guess how they solved it - they did not talk about it, but concentrated on the economy.
Joschka Fischer was the first to try to de-nazify the continuing memory of the German Foreign Service - which was partly revoked by his successor.
You never had "US-leaning officers", you had German right wing nationalists who continued their fight against communism.
According to the law of organizations all the cold war stuff (department, money ...) supposedly survived after the fall of the wall with new (or old) designations. There finally might be a new generation in power to mop it all up, let's keep our fingers crossed.

Posted by: somebody | May 12, 2014 2:10:35 AM | 77

Posted by: Grieved | May 12, 2014 1:40:32 AM | 75

"We need to be able to celebrate the tiny steps of people we know or hear of beginning to understand something that seems to us now very elementary, but which constitutes in fact the beginning of revolution in the individual mind."

Well said, and we need to do it without sounding condescending and with a humility that admits what we don't know and when we've been wrong.

Posted by: fairleft | May 12, 2014 2:19:25 AM | 78

Initial referendum results:

Participation:
Donetzk - 74%
Lugansk - 81%

For independence:
Donetzk - 89,7%

Posted by: Harry | May 12, 2014 2:35:48 AM | 79

@somebody #77:

Yeah, I had misgivings about the "purged" part, but you can't edit posts here once you've made them. ;-)

Thank you for your corrections/clarifications.

But surely the US has managed to impose its ideology on German elites independently of anything having to do with German right-wing politics? The main example of that is the FRG's adoption of neoliberalism; privatizing the rail road and the post office, for example. That has nothing to do with German conservative economics, which sees the state as playing a leading role in the economy.

If this Anglophone/Atlanticist ideology was imprinted on German economic elites, in a process having nothing to do with the Nazi legacy, why could the same thing not have happened with the German intelligence community? (As I'm sure you know, Americans like to think of their intelligence bureaucracy as a "community", for some reason.)

Posted by: Demian | May 12, 2014 2:42:26 AM | 80

To be fair, I didnt expected such huge voting crowds, South-east in general looked quite passive in recent months. It seems massacres where the tipping point, as if Kiev deliberately wanted for south-east to secede, or to force Russia's hand to intervene, or both.

Posted by: Harry | May 12, 2014 2:49:41 AM | 81

Posted by: Demian | May 12, 2014 2:42:26 AM | 80

That is the hope, that today's German conservatives are different from the old right wing anti-communist nationalist elites.

There is another thought: Germany's right wing generally had to replace anti-communism with another raison-d'etre, not just the secret services and NATO to find other wedge issues and create tension.

So out of a sudden the new issues were multi culturalism, double citizenship, Islam.

On the economy there is agreement from left to right that the state is the most ineffective tool to run a business. There is disagreement on the amount of transfer payments, taxes and the groups that should receive/pay them and on the industries that should receive state support or not - that is all. German railways, telecommunications and energy business may be theoretically privatized, in effect - in Germany - they are largely monopolies with now international range whose size and wide spread shares protect them from a take over. Siemens is a prime example for it, joke in Germany is that it is more civil service than company.

Posted by: somebody | May 12, 2014 3:34:48 AM | 82

plus 82) Oh yes, and our former conservative president, Wulff, was shot down with a dubious court case, involving a supposed bribe of 700 Euro after he had pronounced that "Islam is part of Germany" to be replaced with an ex GDR anti communist pastor. I am inclined to put that in the same file as the strange death of John Paul I and the murder of Aldo Moro.

Posted by: somebody | May 12, 2014 3:47:18 AM | 83

Stike me what a brave kind of people in east. ukraine, standing up while a military keep killing them, voting et.c.
And most of all, have hardly used any violence in return.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 12, 2014 3:52:26 AM | 84

Rowan,70, wonderful comment. Reminder of the beginning of my own learning curve decades ago.

Grieved, same. Thank you both for fine comments.

Posted by: okie farmer | May 12, 2014 3:58:56 AM | 85

Awful reporting from NYT on referendum:

Separatist Vote in East Ukraine Is Chaotic and Condemned

By ANDREW E. KRAMER

Referendums conducted in the hope of legitimizing the secessionists’ cause unfolded in an atmosphere that was alternately celebratory and violent, and were criticized as unfair by the government in Kiev and by international observers.

Posted by: okie farmer | May 12, 2014 4:05:55 AM | 86

Harry

You are right, nato, eu, us, kiev just sit and wait for Russia to intevene right now, thats the only goal behind these massacres. RT report new killed today, for what reason?

Posted by: Anonymous | May 12, 2014 4:27:39 AM | 87

@okie farmer #86:

You don't give a link to the NYT article. But I gave a link to a NYT article in #68. And that article stated: "Nearly everyone who cast a ballot appeared to be voting in favor of greater autonomy from the Ukrainian central government in Kiev." So I would not call NYT reporting on the referendum "awful". You just have to go past the pomposity and melodrama of the NY Times style of reporting.

Posted by: Demian | May 12, 2014 4:28:35 AM | 88

Demian, did you watch the video? How many polling stations did the reporter have to go to to find one person voting? The intertube was full of pics and video of long lies of people.

Posted by: okie farmer | May 12, 2014 4:48:34 AM | 89

Asia Times Online :: Putin displays Ukraine chess mastery

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-090514.html

Posted by: Paty Kerry | May 12, 2014 5:03:42 AM | 90

Previewing your Comment

As I've said Russia has 2 strategic goals for survival and re the Ukraine that avoids full scale war for now, one a very low probability one (though they will try it) the other a higher (but still low) one that will take time to come to fruition ....before the 'big crisis' that is eventually coming.

Strategy (a) - Have the Ukrainian Military do a reverse putsch, overthrowing the coup leaders and neo-nazi militias. Then asking Russia for economic help and promising new elections, etc very quickly . That would be Russia's Christmases all come at once.

This a low probability because the Ukrainian military has been so ran down and almost certainly so infiltrated by the west that they are effectively useless. This was a major Russian strategic mistake not to get very close to them and have large amounts of formal and informal links. And I am sure there are many people in the Kremlin kicking themselves for their failure to not put things in place much longer ago.

Strategy (b) - create a split between the US and Germany. The links between German and Russia are so close these days that there are a lot of people there that would rather deal with them than the overbearing, half insane, bugging, insulting...etc. etc US.

But, as I always say the US is crap militarily and these days economically, but they are genius levels at subverting countries elites in the political, national security, military and economic elite.

In Germany, as in every western and many non western countries the 'national security' forces are loyal to the US first and foremost over and above their citizens or even their Govts .. or even their economic elites.

Ask a simple question, why did it take Snowdown to let the Germans know that Merkal was bugged ... what about Germany's own counter intelligence forces? Are they so incompetent that they cannot protect their head of state's communications .... or are they traitors.

Of course they are traitors, they almost certainly helped the US do it....

Hence Putin's, as usual not mentioned, comment that so many of the EU country leaders are scared to talk freely.. because they are bugged (blackmailed?) totally and with the help of their own, traitorous, counter intelligence forces.

So I give that, despite the German economic elite's preference for Russia a low probability too.

So, in a couple of months there is going to be a big crisis which will involve military forces.

And Russia will not back down. It will be created by the usual, crowd, US, UK, France. There will be endless (by now no one in the world believes) lies. As usual it will be by miscalculations that dying empires make (maybe the US will nuke Iran for example).

If you have any doubt about Russian resolve, then think about the Syrian crisis which showed how they will do a full scale confrontation. The Russian navy outnumbered and were between the USN and the Syrian/Lebanese coast. Sending a clear message that the USN's cruise missiles were going to have to go through them first. What you think the US's move in the Ukraine was not a response .. check you IQs people.

The only thing I criticize Herch's superb article for is that the US backed down because some 'truth' came out.. nonsense. The US has never done that in the last 20 years or so, if ever.
It was because there were all those Russian missile ships (and subs) in their way between the USN and Syria.

The kicker in all this is the Chinese .. but my analysis they will do nothing, but wait to be smashed (again, like the last 200 years or so, sorry Chinese people here, you are always and always will be a victim country smashed and ruled by others ).
They are at the stage Russia was at 10-15 years ago, thinking they can have a deal with the US (you can't) and struggling with its new oligarchs who only care about their money and all of them would sell out China so fast it is not funny. Think Russia under Yelstin.. only far, far worse.

And with the usual US genius to subvert elites every one of them is a traitor (polls show the majority of the rich there want to move the US).

Now Putin knows that (he and his advisers study history and data) and I think he counts on China for exactly ..nothing.

Except for under Mao Chinese elites have always been weak and are not prepared to fight for their own country .. ever. The people will of course, but they will be subverted by their traitorous elites, the average Chinese billionaire dreams about giving his daughter plastic surgery to make her more western looking and get into Harvard.. to marry a high ranking US person. Such is the failure called China, where its elites kill their own people to make western (and their own) elites wealthy. Meanwhile, unlike Russia, the people's wages ever decline and their health systems and pensions disintegrate (very similar to the US) while their oligarchs (admitted traitors) grow ever richer.

So Russia, again, is alone and surrounded by hateful enemies determined to destroy it and there is no way back from this now.. but this time though it can take the whole world down with it.

Survival of the human race now is like betting or a king high in a poker game. You might win, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

And though Putin and his team are very, very smart, they are faced with insanely stupid, insanely aggressive and implacable enemies (and useless 'allies' like China who would turn on Russia in an instant).

I remind all you here that in 3 of the documented cases of where the nukes nearly fired that individual Russians chose not to. In all of those cases if had been a US, UK or French person, they would have obeyed orders and fired.

Make a bet (that can never be paid, because we will be all dead). The first western nuke fired into Russia will be from a UK missile sub, because no one (even the Poles), but no one hates the Russians more than the English.

Posted by: oldskeptic | May 12, 2014 6:43:57 AM | 98

Something went real wrong with that lats post, for some reason all the previous ones were included....???

Sorry not my fault.

Posted by: oldskeptic | May 12, 2014 6:56:17 AM | 99

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