Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 14, 2014

Ukraine: Update And Don't Forget The Religious Side

In ten cities in the Donbas region (mostly Donetsk oblast) in Ukraine the important administrative buildings are now in the hands of pro-federalization activists.

A second ultimatum from Kiev against the activists has passed and nothing happened. It had been issued after CIA director Brennan visisted Kiev and relayed Obama's orders. This morning the coup-government in Kiev (again) replaced the head of the anti-terror police without giving any reason. We can assume that he did not want or could follow orders to clear the east of Ukraine of protesters. The Defense Minister said that several military units going east were held up by villagers along the roads. Some videos showed artillery and Katusha missile units allegedly moving east. I doubt that those would be used against protesters. One needs infantry to clear those out but I find it unlikely that Kiev will find any regular unit willing to do so.

The coup president became the joke of the day when he asked the UN to join with "peacekeepers" to clear the "terrorists" in eastern Ukrainian cities.

Ukraine's acting President Oleksandr Turchynov on Monday called for the deployment of United Nations peacekeeping troops in the east of the country, where pro-Russian insurgents have occupied buildings in nearly 10 cities.

In a telephone conversation with UN Secretary-General Ban Ki Moon, Turchynov suggested that an "anti-terrorist operation" could be conducted jointly by Ukrainian security forces and UN peacekeepers, according to the presidential web site.

The UN Security Council would have agree to such and Russia (and China) would only agree if Russian troops would get the mandate to do so. They also have the advantage of being able to start the job with just a few hours notice :-).

While the media have said a lot about Russian speaking versus Ukrainian speaking people missing in those reports is another important distinction between east and west Ukraine. The east and south is mostly Russian orthodox while the west Ukraine is catholic. During the recent days several orthodox priests could be seen mingling with the protesters in the east. The difference may not look important for people who have grown up in mostly secular "western" societies. But there are important differences in believes and the ethos of those two churches. Orthodox believe seem stronger and more intense then today's catholicism.

This week, between palm Sunday and Easter Sunday, is the holy week for the orthodox believers. Easter is their highest holiday of the year. Any attack on the east during this week would be seen as an offense against a holy realm and answered with more spirit than usually. Not only from Ukrainians but also from Russians. The miners and steelworkers in the Donbas have yet to come out in great numbers against the Kiev coup government. Any attack now would probably see them react in force. It would likely mean the end for the coup plotters in Kiev.

Posted by b on April 14, 2014 at 02:07 PM | Permalink

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@all - any comment relating to "zionists" "jews" and the like in this thread will result in the ban of the commentator from this side. I am simply tired of this stupid repetitive stuff.

Posted by: b | Apr 14, 2014 2:15:32 PM | 1

I read that kerry open up for arms to Ukraine. These people havent learned one thing!

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 14, 2014 2:25:40 PM | 2

Religion in Ukraine isn't just a matter of Catholics vs. Orthodox. Most of the Ukrainian Catholics are Greek Catholics, who are superficially closer (although aligned with Vatican) to their Orthodox countrymen, except that they have always hated each other with passion. Both the Czarist Russia and USSR had formally banned Greek Catholic (which they never did to the Roman Catholics) and only in the regions that never belonged to the Russian Empire (the Czarist variety) do they have a significant following.

The Orthodox in Ukraine is also divided, with 3 major factions. One is aligned with Moscow. The other two had broken off from Moscow at two different times when an independent Ukraine was created: one in 1921 and the other in 1991 (the first, obviously, had been banned under USSR).

There are conflicting reports on their relative numbers, but the religious affiliation aligns closely with the attitude towards Moscow. The 15% or so who are Greek Catholics intensely despise Russia. The rest are ambivalent towards Russia to various extent--some (Russian Orthodox) are more pro-Russian, while those who are Ukrainian Orthodox (of either faction) are to various degrees, skeptical of Russia but not necessarily hostile in general. If the conflict does become religious in scope, Ukraine likely becomes another Ireland and perhaps Lviv another Belfast.

Posted by: a different anon | Apr 14, 2014 2:25:56 PM | 3

Easter is also the holiest day of the year in Catholicism.

Posted by: gemini333 | Apr 14, 2014 3:02:32 PM | 4

B says wisely not to forget the impact of religion.

Agreed, but principally because Russian patriotism, the patriotism of “All the Russias” that transcends ethnicity is saintly, not because of past antagonisms between the groupings. Post-Christian whites cannot conceive let alone understand this because in the west religion has been successfully “crucified dead and buried.” In Russia love of country is expressed as and empowered by conviction and devotion. Today, the common enemy is alien, so I expect no inter-religious rivalry.

Posted by: Michaël | Apr 14, 2014 3:08:06 PM | 5

Are not the "Greek Catholics" also known as Uniates?

Confirmation of Brennan's visit, which I found incredible yesterday, is another indication of the depth of US involvement in what is beginning to look like another example of Obama's complete incompetence.

He puts the conduct of US Foreign Policy into the hands of ignorant crazies in the Pemtagon and the CIA-professional torturers and bullies who invariably go off at half cock. Only he understands that, little though they know, they are less inexperienced and narrow minded than he, and his election team cronies in the White House are.

In the meantime Russia has done nothing, has all the trump cards and can just sit back and wait for Kiev's next mistake. It seems a pity that real lives are being used as currency in this game between gum chewing irresponsible street-corner bullies and Russian statesmen with far more important things to do with their time.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 14, 2014 3:08:13 PM | 6

The uniate church seems to me to be a political construct. It divides a minority from the Orthodox majority wherever it exists, and deliberately so. Its ultimate obedience to Rome makes it a sort of colonialist construct, like the protestant churches in Asia and Africa and south America, which are maintained largely to provide some political leverage for their bosses in the USA. The opportunity to gain leverage in Asia by supporting a few stooges is going to be grasped whenever it presents itself, even at the cost of absurdities. I'm not saying that uniate catholics are contemptible people, of course. It would be more accurate to say that they are trapped in a sort of European colonial construct, a very old one indeed.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Apr 14, 2014 3:16:03 PM | 7

@ #3 - a different anon - I think that is quite right. Only One thing that I would add is - some animosity between the "Roman" Catholics & the "Ukrainian Greek" Catholics aka "Uniate" which can be a dirty word - Polish vs Ukrainian. There are still some Poles in Ukraine. There is a very complex religious situation. You would think - since both acknowledge the authority of the pope, they would would be friendly - but - - no.

I would strongly advise the USians to stay far FAR way from Ukraine, since they have got No. Clue about the situation complexities, and the current CIA employees with Ukrainian background - children of the WW II emigres - can only view the situation from their Galician (W. Ukrainian) parents.

I do think that the situation will cool down, unless somebody int he US does something really really stupid.

Posted by: Night Owl | Apr 14, 2014 3:26:10 PM | 8

Speaking of the joke of the day, the Kiev Kings of Komedy put on another uproarious skit yesterday when they had an actor from Kiev pretend to be a provocateur for the cameras, and establish his credentials as a Colonel in the Russian Army.

http://marknesop.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/just-wait-a-friedman-then-youll-see/#comment-55332

This follows hard on the heels of their announcement that they have proof of Russian military intervention in the eastern uprisings, and cite observation of assault rifles of the AK-100 series - "issued only to the Russian military" - to establish their case. Some of the weapons in the accompanying photos are of AKS-74U's (issued to the Ukrainian Marines, among others, in a country which has a conscript military), and the AK-100 series - chambered in NATO 7.62mm and 5.56mm with a view to cutting into western manufacturers' market share of those types - was deliberately manufactured for export. "Capturing" a weapon used "only by the enemy" is the oldest trick in the book, like dropping the mark's wallet at the scene of the crime, and the USA has airlifted planeloads of AK-series weapons around the world to implicate the Soviet Union and later the Russian Federation or even Ukraine in a variety of dodgy military scenarios.

Ukraine says they intend to present this proof to the "international community" in Geneva this coming Thursday. Good luck with that; it reminds me of the "discovery", in a Kiev administrative building that was "liberated" by the Maidan rioters, of maps and documentation that proved a retired FSB Colonel, living in the Kiev Hotel as a guest of the Yanukovych government, was the mastermind of the plan to push the "peaceful protesters" off the Maidan. The map featured broad red arrows to indicate the direction in which government shock troops should move, and red "X-marks-the-sniper" positions on rooftops, and was in English so that international journalists would not underestimate its significance. You notice you never heard any more about that, although Avakov or Parubiy or one of those yahoos vowed to take it to the International Criminal Court.

Posted by: Mark | Apr 14, 2014 3:31:20 PM | 9

And as the Empire declines, what is rising but still invisible is realisation of the time honoured prophecy that Russia will somehow save humanity or the world—or will rebuild the Church, a shambolic ruin since Vatican Council Two. This expectation is central to Russian Orthodoxy that vivifies patriotism.
Also, totally hidden is the 1917 promise of Our Lady at Fátima that Russia will convert after the Pope with all his faithful bishops (assuming he has any), consecrates Russia to the “Immaculate Heart of Mary.” Subsequent is the notion that the Catholic Church will resurrect in a glorious, global resuscitation of religious practice admitting an age of peace between nations.
Only the fool asks how many divisions the Pope commands, though admittedly the popes of the past fifty years have been syncretist clowns or, like JP2, far worse.

Posted by: Michaël | Apr 14, 2014 3:32:30 PM | 10

Don’t know much about religion in the Ukr., it counts of course, but more important, maybe some kind of class solidarity:

If the miners in Donesk, or E. Ukr., for big cos. or illegal exploitation and profit making (think China informal coal mines), steel workers, arms producers, other industrial such as chemical plants, machine building, salt mines, go on strike or in whatever way throw in the towel or make claims for autonomy / worker, other - some Gvmt? / control, a whole new, unexpected, scenario will rapidly come down, and may become very violent.

These industries are very vulnerable to even very minor disturbance, like a one day slow-down strike, transport broken, or key managers quitting, payments not received, salaries unpaid, in the now uncertain landscape..

The worker as ‘hero’ Soviet-style is dismissed as outdated, industrial workers (used at least to a living wage) are at a loss for models and bosses. All these industries are on a tight-rope, with inputs and outputs on slim margins, hard to manage, sensitive to any glitch.

Invest in the Donesk region!! - website:

http://rada.com.ua/eng/RegionsPotential/Donetsk/

look at the list at top left for the investors and "partners."

Posted by: Noirette | Apr 14, 2014 3:35:39 PM | 11

bevin @6, I think you miss how the US government functions. Obama is not in control of the military or the State Department. No President has been in control since the coup of 1963. Considering that there has been a seventy-year alliance between US intelligence and Ukrainian fascists, the fascist coup in Ukraine was in the works long before Obama was elected. Maybe before he was born.

The important thing here is to consider why the US would move now. Anyone looking at Ukraine's unraveling would know enough to stay out of this mess. The current crisis could eventually bifurcate the EU from the US because of differing interests.

I think that, at least in part, Ukraine, Libya and Syria have been ploys by the permanent government to weaken Obama domestically. Putin actually helped him and Kerry get out of the Syrian mess. The Republicans are still honking about Benghazi. Reactionaries in the US would like nothing better than Obama "losing" Ukraine like Carter "lost" Iran and Truman "lost" China. Unfortunately for Obama, the best for all concerned would be for the US to step back, allow the EU and Russia to sort out the current mess, and consider themselves lucky not to become any more involved. Obviously, big US-aligned energy companies would benefit by weakening Russia's powerful position supplying natural gas to the West, but that won't happen without an enormous economic disruption to Germany and its EU, and Merkel has certainly shown enough business sense that she will not go willingly with the "F...Y.." Nulands of the State Department.

Also, too much interference with the European energy market and you can expect Russia to tilt to the east and begin supplying China with a greater percentage of energy. Merkel has no desire to become any more dependent on US and its energy supplies.

Again, from the start America's options in Ukraine weren't particularly good. That's why I expect at some level that this was done by the permanent government for domestic consumption to aid the Republicans in the 2014 mid-term elections. Some people will still clutch their pearls when McCain howls at the moon.

Posted by: Bob In Portland | Apr 14, 2014 3:44:29 PM | 12

The only religious side not to forget is the religion of profit.

Behind the sensationalized headlines, it’s still very much business as usual. Oil is artificially over-priced and this strategy of tension is used to justify the theft and transfer of wealth. Supply and demand does not explain the ridiculously high price of oil. It’s an illegal, back door tax that’s enriching the World Wide Oligarch Network (WWON) and supporting the success of the Russian rentier economy.

Call The Bluff

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Apr 14, 2014 3:44:31 PM | 13

Bob @12 I think you make the poiunt I was trying to make. The moves in the Ukraine are those of bungling amateurs (look them up in the dictionary for a picture of Brennan, Power and The President):
"The important thing here is to consider why the US would move now. Anyone looking at Ukraine's unraveling would know enough to stay out of this mess. The current crisis could eventually bifurcate the EU from the US because of differing interests.

As to the antiquity of the alliance between US intelligence and the fascists- we're walking a fine line here between oxymorons and tautologies- like most US Intelligence ideas it goes back to the Nazis and the German General Staff before them: General Hoffman grabbing the Bolshevik food supply at Brest Litovsk.
It's funny the Bolsheviks always get blamed for the bad harvests of 1921/2

Posted by: bevin | Apr 14, 2014 3:53:15 PM | 14

Berkeley @7
"The uniate church seems to me to be a political construct. It divides a minority from the Orthodox majority wherever it exists, and deliberately so. Its ultimate obedience to Rome makes it a sort of colonialist construct..."
With the colonialism in question being Polish?
My memory of the history is growing dim now but it seems to me that the Uniate strategy was designed to draw the political allegiance of the Orthodox clergy away from Moscow without making any real doctrinal demands on the believers themselves. This at the time when the Dutch dominated the Baltic grain trade and Ukrainian grain poured into western Europe making the fortunes of the Polish aristocracy.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 14, 2014 3:58:49 PM | 15

The pickle that the putschists find themselves in is that even if they could follow through on their ultimatums (they are now 0-2) and clear the government buildings of protesters how can they hold them? Without the support of the Ukrainian military, they have to field ten "elite" Alfa units to clear and then maintain control. It doesn't look like they are able to do this, and won't be able to even after Holy week.

If I had to speculate, this is what Brennan's visit over the weekend was about: How to control the Donbas with hastily constructed (chock full no doubt with Greystone mercenaries) special forces units. I would guess that Russia already has ample special forces on the ground in the east; they're just in plainclothes, and they've been quiet so far; they're waiting to see if there is a need to respond.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Apr 14, 2014 4:00:22 PM | 16

Posted by: bevin | Apr 14, 2014 3:08:13 PM | 6

Russia won't just sit back and wait. They have acted ever since the "Kyiv government" came out with nationalist anti-Russian statements.

This here are Germany's sanctimonious Social Democrats

“It cannot be, seven decades after the end of the second world war and 25 years after the end of the cold war, that we start changing borders based on ethnic, linguistic or religious factors.“

Just that this is what "we" did in Yougoslavia. And this is what "we" tried to do in Syria and Iraq.

The "Kyiv government" started off by alienating Russians - which only makes sense if you intend to split the country. The split is not in Russia's interest, Russia acts to make sure Ukraine gets split to her interest - if at all.
So either the Kyiv government negotiates a deal with Russia for the unity of Ukraine or Russia will go on to carve Ukraine up to her liking with support of the locals who need jobs, security, wages, pensions and a non inflationary currency.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 14, 2014 4:01:19 PM | 17

@16 mike. i agree with your assessment of the situation. i don't see how brennans presence in kiev bodes well here either.. the usa sure knows how to meddle. they seem to excel at it in faraway countries they have no biz being in.

Posted by: james | Apr 14, 2014 4:04:13 PM | 18

Bob @12 is close I believe. I don't think Obama has much maneuvering room here and is playing a bit subtler hand than is being credited to him. The WH confirmed Brennan's visit, but they didn't have to do that. They could have worded a statement much more vaguely or not said anything at all; there was no real pressure to talk publicly.
I think you could legitimately think along a different track and see this as an "outing" of CIA actions. There is a war going on within the US government and it is being played out in global actions.
I'm not suggesting the Obama is somehow fighting a noble action; he's just as much a war criminal as the Bush family.

Posted by: BakerPete | Apr 14, 2014 4:06:32 PM | 19

Posted by: Bob In Portland | Apr 14, 2014 3:44:29 PM | 12

I think it is psychological warfare. It mirrors Russia confirming that their security guy had been present the day of the sniping.

I don't think anybody in Ukraine is sure who is backing whom.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 14, 2014 4:36:51 PM | 20

"The miners and steelworkers in the Donbas have yet to come out in great numbers against the Kiev coup government."

This is one of the reasons for that.

http://lifenews.ru/news/130041 Шахтеров Донбасса выгоняют с работы за участие в митингах за Россию

"Donbas miners lost their job for taking part in demonstrations in Russia

Participate in rallies in support of the Russian-speaking population can no longer be employees, discuss fate south-east of Ukraine - too.

Disagree with the new Kyiv authorities on mine "Komsomolets Donbas" no place. According to the company's management, the miners should be apolitical. Participate in rallies in support of the Russian-speaking population more employees can not discuss with colleagues fate south-east of Ukraine - too. Otherwise, you can be on the streets, explains Alexander Larin. According to Miner, the first warning bosses "Komsomolets" already made.

- Site Manager said, Behold, all want to go to rallies - go, just for you, at your place, for 10 people standing in line who want to work, - said Alexander Larin miner.

After these threats by wanting to defend their position on the streets of Donbass declined several times. "Komsomolets Donbas" in Kirov people call provider. Coal mine - main job for the citizens, there works a fifth of the local population.

- Guys intimidated. Because it Ahmetovsky mine, losing a job - here another present, and what they do? They were told to leave the area - then all will be laid off at your place, so there. Here is our situation, everyone is trying to intimidate us, - said a resident of Alexander Kirov Voskoboev.

Alexander is a member of the initiative group of residents of the city Kirov. He, like many, I'm sure that bans suppress the protest movement in the Donbas authorities fail. Pro-fascist leadership of the country south-east of Ukraine is not recognized and are unlikely to recognize.

Despite the rather significant losses in the ranks of social activists to stop there kirovchane not going to - and they will continue on to participate in political campaigns. In addition, members of the initiative group of the city have already signed a petition to hold a referendum on the Donbass about the future of the region." - Google translation.

I am pretty sure that mine company is owned by Taruta, the "governor" for the Donbass appointed by the nazis in the Kiev junta.

Another reason the "the miners and steelworkers", and a lot of other working people are not out in force is because they have to go to work. This is why the demos were initially during the weekends but not much evident during the week, probably. That's changing as of last week, with the move to start more building occupations and the junta going east to suppress.

Posted by: scalawag | Apr 14, 2014 5:03:36 PM | 21

That Obama has stood up to the Deep State while in office, I see hardly any evidence for. Remember the 2008 campaign slogan, “We are the ones we have been waiting for”? Well, apparently we've been waiting for another apologist for American unilateralism. In any event, there is a decent story in today's NYT about how Obama has done gone and lost the youth cohort on whom the Dems are pinning their future electoral viability:

“If you were to call it an Obama generation, there was a window,” said John Della Volpe, the director of polling at the Institute of Politics at Harvard University. “That opportunity has been lost.” He said the youth who came of voting age around the time of the 2008 election have since lost interest in electoral politics, and pointed to a survey he conducted last year among 18- to 29-year-olds. Although 70 percent said they considered community service an honorable endeavor, only 35 percent said the same about running for office.
Might it have something to do with the Nobel Peace Prize winner waging war throughout the globe?

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Apr 14, 2014 5:13:40 PM | 22

Шахтеров Донбасса выгоняют с работы за участие в митингах за Россию

Does "за Россию" mean "in Russia" or "for Russia"?

Posted by: lysias | Apr 14, 2014 5:20:35 PM | 23

22) That was clear right from the start.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 14, 2014 5:25:50 PM | 24

@lysias #23:

"for", obviously. "in Russia" wouldn't make any sense, since Donbass is not in Russia.

Posted by: Demian | Apr 14, 2014 5:27:22 PM | 25

What is more scary that west lie and lie about Ukraine/Russia or that 95% of the west believe lies?

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 14, 2014 5:31:03 PM | 26

@Anonymous #26:

Judging by readers' comments on the Guardian and the German FAZ, no more than 50% believe the lies, and it could me more like only 20%

What I currently find depressing is what is going on at Wikipedia. All the Ukrainian current events articles are dominated by a Canadian Ukrainian who is so rabidly nationalistic that he uses the Cyrillic alphabet for his user id. It's very disturbing to see the hate there.

It will be interesting to see how things play out in southeastern Ukraine. The lack of legitimacy of the Kiev regime becomes plain for all to see if the regime cannot organize any kind of armed force to put down the unrest.

Assuming that 10% of Ukrainians are virulently anti-Russian, it's somewhat strange that the Kiev regime can't get enough people together to fight for it. That may mean that even highly nationalistic Ukrainians lack confidence in the regime, so that they don't think it is worth fighting for.

Posted by: Demian | Apr 14, 2014 5:49:28 PM | 27

Ukrainian putchists cannot deal with the disturbances in Donbass (in Russian)

There are reports that protesters control the Donetsk and Slavic airports, all military units, movement across the border to Russia, and other strategic targets. Patrolling the streets are collaborative group of Cossacks and unidentified armed individuals, who present themselves as the local self-defense units.

The Ukraine is getting to look like Afghanistan (though thankfully without the killing), with the regime only in control of the capital and surrounding areas.

Given that the Kiev regime does not appear to be in control of the Russian border anymore, I now think that it is possible that some Russian special forces are now in the Ukraine. Given that eastern Ukrainians and Russians are essentially the same people, if some Russian soldiers were captured by the regime, there would be no way of telling that they are Russian, unless they carried something that gives them away.

I believe the current Russian plan is to delegitimize the Kiev regime by showing that it cannot control vast swaths of Ukrainian territory. There is no intention of annexing any more territory; that would not be in Russia's interest. The Ukraine splitting apart is also not in Russia's interest, since in that case the western part would be a breeding ground for anti-Russian terrorists.

Posted by: Demian | Apr 14, 2014 6:22:03 PM | 28

It is obvious that the Kiev 'government' is pathetically weak and desperate, begging for military intervention from the West. As usual the West will only encourage with words, promises, and little money the pro-EU version of 'democracy' in West Ukraine.
As in Syria, lots of back tapping, meeting of the "friends of Ukraine" but nothing really serious. As Ukraine is about to crumble as a country, it seems that a federation is on its way before end year

Posted by: Virgile | Apr 14, 2014 6:22:56 PM | 29

Bob In Portland @12

I am not sure that the plutocrats’ coup goes back to 1963. “The Domino Theory” was sound enough argument to get a draft army fighting for a decade in Vietnam before it finally collapsed. The American Empire started acting crazy when it invaded Iraq in 2003. What confirmed the autocratic rule was when not one banker went to jail for causing the 2008 economic collapse and the austerity programs that were forced on Western citizens.

Rule for wealth is the only rationale for the West’s behavior in Ukraine. The Elite intend to destabilize Russia and scavenge the remains. The risks are incredible since Russian military doctrine is to use tactical nuclear weapons to avoid defeat. This has to be driven by revenge against Russia by the Deep State for the humiliation of being told not to bomb Syria.

I am not sure that the American President in his bubble realizes that he is in the middle of a Mutually Assure Destruction (MAD) scenario. I still have a hard time accepting that the likely outcome the Kiev Putsch is Armageddon. We haven’t change since 1914 except for the thousands of hydrogen bombs ready to be ignited.

Posted by: VietnamVet | Apr 14, 2014 6:25:15 PM | 30

Posted by: lysias | Apr 14, 2014 5:20:35 PM | 23

"Does "за Россию" mean "in Russia" or "for Russia"?"

Literally For Russia, but in the context of it's use there, it means for Russian speakers or for ethnic Russians.

Posted by: scalawag | Apr 14, 2014 6:28:13 PM | 31

Understanding the Ukrainian crisis

11. Ukrainian nationalism is incompatible with the multi-cultural reality of Ukraine. As well as with the euro-integration which requires the acceptance of liberal and humanistic ideas – such as individualism, personal emancipation, feminism, LGBT-rights, freedom of speech etc.

...


14. What Ukraine is really in need of is the uniting civil identity, denationalization, and establishing of an alternative political movement that would stand for liberalization of the Ukrainian society. Instead of becoming a part of the Russian Empire or the European Family Ukraine should stop seeking for sugar-daddies and start to redesign itself as an independent trans-cultural state that based on the principles of democracy, humanism and the human rights.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 14, 2014 6:35:56 PM | 32

night owl & bevi

the empire doing something stupid is almost guaranteed - it seems to be their sop - stupid operating procedure

lavrov & the crew have not wasted their years in the academies & diplomat's schools - they appear like einstein before the apes, i have been surprised by their lucidity or perhaps it is just with each fall the empire gets more vulgar & in this case the women like power etc are without any subtlety, even if you presume they want chaos - but i have felt even though russia's diplomats have in the last decade won many battles, they have often been hesitant, often allowing the empire to frame the situation - i've been going back too b's work at the time of georgia & it is resonant in studying what is happening in what passes for ukraine today

every time i catch a russian diplomat they are like a stud racehorse, enjoying their run in the field

the right sector & american mercenaries, as people have said here, can do real damage but they can not control anything for any real period of time

i fear the stupidity of the empire most of all, in this instance - especially given that everything that happens in libya today is like a bloody abbot & costello grotesque, unbelievable, yet quite believable but behind that grotesque real people are being murdered

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Apr 14, 2014 6:38:06 PM | 33

Here is a blatant example of "Russian agents creating chaos were there was none and spreading hatred".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-KuNWM9Zqk 14.04.2014. 19.30 г.Родинское - Люди против Танка

You can see how they use "sheer projection of mind bending power", a secret method of mind control that has been upgraded from the earlier version used during the Soviet days of total mind control of the people. This his how Putin personally brainwashes the Russian people and how he is now brainwashing the loyal patriotic Ukrainian heros of the Euromaidan. Next time you a video of Putin, watch his eyes carefully. But be careful doing this, he is trying to mind control you.

This on the good authority of Samantha Powers. She would never tell a lie.

Posted by: scalawag | Apr 14, 2014 6:38:37 PM | 34

@VietnamVet #30

This has to be driven by revenge against Russia by the Deep State for the humiliation of being told not to bomb Syria.

I think that the State Department would have ordered the putsch even if the RF had not interfered with the neocons' plans for Syria. The Kiev putsch had been planned for years; it was supposed to take place at the next elections, but was moved up after Yanukovich hesitated on the EU deal. (As Putin said, it's not as if Yanukovich rejected the deal outright; he just wanted further study and negotiation.)

I am not sure that the American President in his bubble realizes that he is in the middle of a Mutually Assure Destruction (MAD) scenario.

I find it pretty odd that most pundits act as if MAD doesn't apply anymore. And when I say that the Pentagon is still aware that it applies and so will do anything to stay out of a shooting war with Russia, I get criticized for that at MoA.

Posted by: Demian | Apr 14, 2014 6:43:26 PM | 35

@34 Here is another example of Russian propaganda. These poor people have been dragged out of a gulag and forced to dance in freezing weather...

http://youtu.be/FNXd3wX_USc

Posted by: dh | Apr 14, 2014 6:54:32 PM | 36

This must be an old WSWS report because I didn't see it on the site.
So I maybe the only person here who doesn't know about this German TV show:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article38229.htm

giap, I too worry about the very sharp tools that these children are allowed to play with, by an MIC which seems only to want to be allowed to keep on making ever more destructive weaponry.
What makes me mildly optimistic is that the impoverishment of the people of the United States, not to mention the victims of the Empire which the USA feeds on, in order to furnish the MIC with an ever greater share on the proceeds of labour, is bound to lead to a break up of the system.
What makes me pessimistic is that the Constitutional Mask and the Potemkin village that is Washington DC-all pine facades and whitewash- have pretty well been discarded and the only difference between full blown tyranny and what currently exists is the complacency with which it is accepted.
"What Me Worry?" America wonders and all over the world, and nowhere more than in the old dominions and England, it is regarded as cool to be cool with the Panopticon, the Star Chamber and the Inquisition.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 14, 2014 7:10:11 PM | 37

Posted by: dh | Apr 14, 2014 6:54:32 PM | 36

"These poor people have been dragged out of a gulag and forced to dance in freezing weather..."

You think that is bad, take a look at this compilation of Russian people being forced to wrestle dangerous animals, drag old women around by the hair and abuse children.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzBInt4zljQ

Posted by: scalawag | Apr 14, 2014 7:10:14 PM | 38

From recent developments in Ukraine, the refusals to obey orders at the regular military level, when those orders come from the coup government, marks a real turning point. This kind of loss of command usually signals the end of a despotic regime, --and in this case, I believe it means that those who deposed the legitimate government, are in the process of being overthrown themselves.

This is very bad news for the Empire/permanent govt./Deep State that spent $5 billion for a result they believed would be irreversible. For the Empire Players this reversal of fortune will likely be more embarrassing and humiliating than being compelled to stand down from the desired bombing of Syria.

The political fallout from this confrontation will mean revolution alright, just not the variety of revolt or uprising they were counting on.

Time is against the Empire from now on; and each day sees a deterioration of the declining curve that governs its end. Even, or perhaps especially, the Holy Week looms now as the obstacle of days, hours, and seconds, which clogs its imperial machinery, and throws another handful of sand into its gears.

Posted by: Copeland | Apr 14, 2014 7:18:51 PM | 39

The Guardian today has, for a change, some real news reports on eastern Ukraine. It is really looking like the coup government has lost control over the entire Donetsk province. Those threats to send in the "anti-terror" units are simply not happening, at least not yet. This could set the stage for peaceful resolution of the entire crisis. The solution will have to be along the lines outlined by Putin and Lavrov's three points: local autonomy for the provinces, no restrictions on the use of Russian and a neutral Ukrainian foreign policy.

So far there is no convincing evidence but it does seem quite likely that the Russians have introduced some agents that are, at the least, coordinating actions between the different towns in the Donetz oblast controlled by the local militias.

For this to be peaceably settled will depend on Merkel's ability to convince Obama and Kerry that the three points proposed by the Russians are the only way to settle this. I am not sure that they are smart enough to realize that there is a way out, but it will have to be the Russians three points and not what they have been doing.

Posted by: ToivoS | Apr 14, 2014 7:23:17 PM | 40

ot

but speaking of the guardian, winning prizes for courage they do not possess is indecent were not these prizes so worthless in their meaning. if there wasn't a manning, an assange, a snowdon, they would have no stories, the so called interpretative 'skills' of 'journalists' are ver poor indeed for thes liberal foxes who act as the last buffer zone for the elites

th so called revelations on murdochs phone tapping would not have happened if the guardian had not used the sleaziest piece of shit in murdoch's stable, paul mcmullen who was clearly the primary source

assange did us a favor in showing these 'journalists' know sweet fuck all about fuck all

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Apr 14, 2014 7:46:13 PM | 41

Manning, Assange and Snowden revealed what all people should have known, that mass media are constituted to lie for the satanic Empire, and that they do so most faithfully and consistently.

Posted by: Michaël | Apr 14, 2014 8:14:51 PM | 42

@ rgiap

Our US media has stood truth on its head, and presented an inverted view of Ukraine, just as it did during the short war in Georgia. The stupidity of this empire will lead to a political implosion in the US; and psychological priming of all our defects, corruption, and the widespread ignorance of the public, has been in preparation to subjugate us, and aims bury us in the stupor and regimentation of a police state.

I think it was our own Robert Louis Stevenson who wrote, "Sooner or later, everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences".

As a Russian writer recently pointed out, "It is Russia's historic mission to frustrate those powers that seek world domination." (I'm paraphrasing) And one could well suppose, at present, that it looks like the country is living up to its reputation.

Posted by: Copeland | Apr 14, 2014 8:17:51 PM | 43

A different anon

You say the Greek Catholics despise Russia. But within Russia itself is a Russian Catholic Church, is there not?
Shouldn't they at least make exceptions?

Posted by: amspirnational | Apr 14, 2014 8:18:49 PM | 44

Posted by: Michaël | Apr 14, 2014 3:32:30 PM | 10

You are aware that
A. there are conspiracy theorist conservative Catholics who believe, e.g. Nicholas Gruner, that Rome has never properly consecrated
Russia?
B. No Orthodox Church believes or has ever believed in papal supremacy, and that Russian Orthodox theologians are aware of the apparition at Fatima and how "Russia's errors" quoting it, shifted from Marxism when the Iron Curtian fell, to Russian Orthodoxy in the opinion of some papal supremacist interpreters of same?

Posted by: amspirnational | Apr 14, 2014 8:28:00 PM | 45

that is a fitting citation of rls, my friend, copeland

yes it really does seem to be living up to its reputation

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Apr 14, 2014 8:29:07 PM | 46

@amspirnational #44:

within Russia itself is a Russian Catholic Church, is there not?

I had to look that up, since I had never heard of such a thing. It looks very fringe to me. What I get out of learning of the existence of this church is that I think even less of Vladimir Solovyov than I did before. Roman Catholicism is anathema to Russians.

As for b's point about "not forgetting" "the religious side": I really don't think that there is a religious side to divisions within the Ukraine. Significantly, b gave not a single link to support his claim. The Ukraine is not Poland. It was part of the Soviet Union, which pretty much stamped any religious sentiment out of everyone. I have never seen anyone claim that there is a religious component to Ukrainian nationalism and anti-Russian feelings. As for the Russian Orthodox, they just find the Ukraine Catholic church bizarre, since it follows the Orthodox, not the Catholic, liturgy.

Sadly for the Empire, it can not set Ukrainian Catholics and Ukrainian Orthodox against each other, the way it has set Shia and Sunni against each other in the Middle East.

Posted by: Demian | Apr 14, 2014 8:38:28 PM | 47

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Apr 14, 2014 5:13:40 PM | 22


Not only has Obama not stood up to the Deep State, he ultimately blessed the Iraq War whose nominal opposition to catapulted him past Clinton
into office.

www.ivaw.org

Do not expect Obama ever to speak at the functions of or promote actual Iraq war vet patriots.

Posted by: amspirnational | Apr 14, 2014 8:38:43 PM | 48

I would assume the "Russian Catholic Church" was banned in the past. The "Greek Catholics" could at least show some respect
that it was unbanned.
Papal supremacy would be impossible for Orthodox ever to accept for the purposes of ecumenism.
Not least because in the early Church, before Rome increased its power, early popes can be shown on occasion to have consulted eastern
bishops for final say in doctrinal disputes.

Posted by: amspirnational | Apr 14, 2014 8:50:58 PM | 49

The inability of the coup government to put together a force willing to put down the protests is an excellent sign. This is certainly a triumph of humanity and solidarity over the tactics of fourth generation war. No matter how many idiots the United States has convinced to scream "Putin is Hitler!" on Twitter, it has absolutely no effect on the situation on the ground.

As the absolute powerlessness of the coup government becomes clear, someone will move to fill the vacuum - be it locally or nationally. And once the Donbas shows they can do it, Odessa, Kharkov, and the rest will follow. And at that point, either someone will step in and try to take command before the whole country goes, or the west may split off seeing no other option and fearing that it too would fall. But such situations of political powerlessness does not exist for long. The 2002 coup in Venezuela is a good example. Though they held all the trappings of power, the Carmona government was clearly powerless. And when that became abundantly clear, the Presidential Guard simply arrested them and took them out the back door as if they were yesterday's trash. Which, in a way, they were.

Not that I'm predicting this, but my sense is that Russia would trade the west of Ukraine becoming a NATO member tomorrow if the east and south of the country - split along the pre-1921 border - went to it. After all, it would be a very weak state, landlocked, bankrupt for the foreseeable future and, if it wanted to enter the EU it would have to keep down the Svoboda/Right Sektor. Banderastan would be maybe louder, but certainly no more a threat than the Baltics and Poland are currently.

Posted by: guest77 | Apr 14, 2014 9:05:12 PM | 50

Posted by: amspirnational | Apr 14, 2014 8:18:49 PM | 44

"But within Russia itself is a Russian Catholic Church, is there not?"

There are about 1.4 million Catholics in Russia. I guess of all kinds of Catholic denominations. This site does a fairly good breakdown of Russian religious demographics.

http://wciom.ru/index.php?id=268&uid=13365

(easy to understand with Google translator)

For comparison, religious demographics of the Ukraine:

"Ukrainian Orthodox - Kyiv Patriarchate 50.4%, Ukrainian Orthodox - Moscow Patriarchate 26.1%, Ukrainian Greek Catholic 8%, Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox 7.2%, Roman Catholic 2.2%, Protestant 2.2%, Jewish 0.6%, other 3.2% (2006 est.)

From: http://www.religionfacts.com/religion_statistics/religion_statistics_by_country.htm

Posted by: scalawag | Apr 14, 2014 9:14:10 PM | 51

Posted by: Demian | Apr 14, 2014 8:38:28 PM | 47

"I really don't think that there is a religious side to divisions within the Ukraine. Significantly, b gave not a single link to support his claim. The Ukraine is not Poland. It was part of the Soviet Union, which pretty much stamped any religious sentiment out of everyone. I have never seen anyone claim that there is a religious component to Ukrainian nationalism and anti-Russian feelings. As for the Russian Orthodox, they just find the Ukraine Catholic church bizarre, since it follows the Orthodox, not the Catholic, liturgy."

Religion has quite a bit to do with Ukrainian nationalism.

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/02/ukrainian-nationalism-its-roots-and.html Ukrainian nationalism - its roots and nature

Posted by: scalawag | Apr 14, 2014 9:17:41 PM | 52

Perhaps one of the greatest obstacles for the "government" in Kiev to overcome in establishing its credibility is the shifty looks of both "Pres" and "PM"; like horror film characters...

Posted by: Cortes | Apr 14, 2014 9:27:04 PM | 53

guest 77 but my sense is that Russia would trade the west of Ukraine becoming a NATO member tomorrow if the east and south of the country - split along the pre-1921 border -

I cannot disagree more. This would put NATO on the Dniepre River. There are many powerful forces in the West that would absolutely relish that opportunity. It would be worth it to them to spend 100s of billions of dollars supporting a failed state to achieve that strategic advantage. Think about it: the US spent close to a trillion dollars pursuing some vague strategic advantage by trying to conquer Iraq. In the bigger strategic picture, Ukraine is worth much more than Iraq. These things cannot just be measured in economic terms.

There is no way the Russia would passively accept such an outcome. If events spin too much out of control, they may have no choice but to accept annexing all of the provinces North and East of the Dniepr River along with the 3 southern ones. But I am sure they would like to avoid that result.

Posted by: ToivoS | Apr 14, 2014 9:27:38 PM | 54

"the Soviet Union, which pretty much stamped any religious sentiment out of everyone."

Describing 70 years of a complex religious history in the Soviet Union with "they stamped the religious sentiment out of everyone" is demonstrably preposterous. So I'll just stack this with your fiction about the "over six million murdered members of the Russian intelligentsia" and move on.

Posted by: guest77 | Apr 14, 2014 9:38:50 PM | 55

A rump Ukrainian state would not be invited to NATO. Any guarantee of defense would not be credible. Any NATO ground troops would be indefensible. Any missile shield could be destroyed before it's built. And nobody will spend hundreds of billions propping up a failed Banderastan. Though they are welcome if they really want to.

Yes there's a lot of talk of Georgia joining NATO, but you'll notice it hasn't.

Posted by: Lysander | Apr 14, 2014 9:40:15 PM | 56

@1

Thank you.

Posted by: Jon Lester | Apr 14, 2014 10:05:12 PM | 57

"The Ukraine is not Poland. It was part of the Soviet Union..."
The latter is true-since Yalta when the Soviet border moved east to include much of Poland.
Of course the Poland we're talking about only goes back to 1919, before then it had been split between Germany, Russia and the Hapsburg Empire, with the final partition being in 1792-if you forget Bonaparte's Grand Duchy.
The point is that Banderastan was only Russian (Soviet) ruled from 1945. the USSR gave Ukraine considerably autonomy and expanded its territory to include, inter alia, Crimea, in order to boost the case for its admission to the UN as a separate and sovereign state. They had been angered by the way that the US had smuggled all manner of Latin American satrapies into the UN by getting them to declare war on Germany in May 1945, thereby getting in under the wire. The USSR found itself pretty isolated at San Francisco and, I believe, both Belarus and Ukraine applied for admission to the General Assembly.
It is hard to deny that they both had a better case than Brazil or Argentina.
Back to Ukraine, before 1945 the west of it was part of Poland, before 1919 Galicia was, I believe, under Hapsburg rule. But the Ukrainians (Ruthenes) fell under the rule of the Poles in a state in which the Poles, Germans and Hungarians had superior status. The heartland of Svoboda and the other fascists is the in the west, which was never ruled by Russians, though they tended to pass through now and again.

As guest77 suggests the US and EU, the Keystone Kops of diplomacy, seem intent on splitting Ukraine into one desirable lump in the east and a western rump with a built in split between those who just want to be Polish or Slovak again and the Kiev region which doesn't.

All the "west" has got out of this has been a propaganda campaign which has worked well in convincing the foolish that Russia has acted badly and is being imperialist etc and the great majority of informed opinion, around the world, that the US is mad and the EU does whatever its mad master orders it.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 14, 2014 10:10:48 PM | 58

@scalawag #52:

Thank you very much for that fascinating but disturbing link. I guess that Ukrainian identity was not creation of the German general staff after all.

the Ukrainian nation is the product of the thousand year old hatred of Orthodox Christianity by the Papacy. […] [T]he modern Ukrainian national identity is basically centered on a rabid, absolutely irrational and paranoid hatred and fear of Russia.

That rings true. If Ukrainian identity were only created by Germans during World War I, the depth and intensity of the hatred of Ukrainian nationalists for Russia would be incomprehensible. So I retract my criticism of b's point that there is a religious dimension to Ukrainian nationalism. With feelings that intense (recurring fantasies of nuking Russians), chances are that religion lies at the bottom of them.

@bevin #58:

Thanks for the (brief) history lesson. Point taken.

@guest77 #55:

Please try to be civil. If you can't make a useful contribution to the discussion, don't post a comment.

Posted by: Demian | Apr 14, 2014 10:42:28 PM | 59

"Please try to be civil. If you can't make a useful contribution to the discussion, don't post a comment."

Sorry Demian, I think it is quite useful to point out where someone is replacing the vast complexities of history with little tidbits of Reader's Digest conventional wisdom. Especially as we are in precisely the middle of the problems caused by such propagandized and simplistic readings of Russian and Soviet history.

So when you can stop making these strange, sourceless, stereotypes of important recent history, I'll stop referring to them.

And really - don't take it personally.

Posted by: guest77 | Apr 15, 2014 12:10:23 AM | 60

@guest77 #60:

Why are you compelled to make personal attacks on me? Can't you just keep quiet unless you have something of value to say?

How am I supposed to not take personal attacks personally?

Posted by: Demian | Apr 15, 2014 12:16:39 AM | 62

@61 - scan - change.org - what a bullshit site that is..

Posted by: james | Apr 15, 2014 12:36:05 AM | 63

@bevin both Belarus and Ukraine applied for admission to the General Assembly.

This is an important point and I think it is missed. The Soviet Union, for all its repression during the turmoil of the 1920s - 1930s, was an interesting example of a multi-ethnic, multi-national federal state where there was considerable autonomy. It was at least as different a model from the homogeneous nation-states of Western Europe as the United States.

And I think the relatively peaceful break up shows this to be true.

The Soviet Union did away with the Russian Empire in 1917 - it did not continue it. And the Russia of today is a state of it's own, not Soviet, clearly it has a national identity, but neither is it narrowly "Russian" in the way, say, France is "French" or Germany "German".

To add a touch of Wikipedia (sorry) to bevin's information:

In 1944, amendments to the All-Union Constitution allowed for separate branches of the Red Army for each Soviet Republic. They also allowed for Republic-level commissariats for foreign affairs and defense, allowing them to be recognized as de jure independent states in international law. This allowed for two Soviet Republics, Ukraine and Byelorussia, to join the United Nations General Assembly as founding members in 1945.

I wouldn't want to take it too far. Of course the Soviet system was very centralized, but the possibilities for the organization of a super-national, multi-ethnic, multi-national state were all there (perhaps in the same way - though less extreme in its hypocrisy - as "all men are created equal" was a seed in the US constitution) . And I think Russia does (and must) continue on with this model to keep what is still an enormous and diverse country together.

Putin and Russia avoid simplistic Russian chauvinism (Putin is always keen to acknowledge Russia's Muslim citizens and compatriots, despite fake *cough* CIA *cough* reports that claim otherwise) and well they should. The extreme end of Russian nationalists - of which the US puppet and general slimebag Alexi Navalny is a prime example - are a great danger to Russia for precisely their anti-Islam stance and divisive chauvinism which would, if they took hold, make it impossible for Russia to stick together. And it is precisely for this reason the West supports him.

Posted by: guest77 | Apr 15, 2014 12:44:05 AM | 64

interesting take..
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/04/14/washington-drives-world-war-paul-craig-roberts/

Posted by: james | Apr 15, 2014 12:50:23 AM | 65

Demian the problem that, I suspect, that guest77 has is that you are given to repeating, no doubt because you regard them as true, some really weird anti-communist claims.
guest is right to call your assertion that the Soviet Union " pretty much stamped any religious sentiment out of everyone" wrong. If you think about it, in particular the vitality of islam in the USSR but also the current strength of the Orthodox, it is clear that nothing was stamped out. In fact the history of religions in what became the USSR is complex.
The same can be said of the repetition of some of the old chestnuts of anti-communism including the "six million intellectuals" killed nowhere but in the mercenary nightmares of liars posing as scholars.
We are entering an era in which the old categories of "left" and "right" must be dissolved: much of the left has reverted to the imperialism from which it sprung and has become part of the Praetorian Guard of a corrupt and hollow faux democracy.
On the other hand many on the right have come to realise that monopoly and oligarchy are the real barriers to humanity looking for freedom. And that to allow a tiny ruling class to control the economy is to cede them control over the planet and the lives of all living in it. In a time of crisis humanity must act collectively to preserve the possibility of future life.
This will involve, at one level, each of us re-evaluating the prejudices and received wisdom that surrounds us, because some of it-such as Robert Conquest "history"- was malicious and tendentious and designed to divide potential critics of the ruling classes.
You are right about one thing however: no good comes from personal abuse, which is a form of self-indulgence.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 15, 2014 12:52:27 AM | 66

Because it isn't a personal attack. I'm discussing what you have written - not you as a person. That is what we do here. Welcome.

If all you have when someone challenges your point of view is to be hurt and take it personally, then I can't imagine that you'll have much fun here. Anyway, I know you've heard this one: "we're all entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts." I'm questioning your characterizations.

Look, I enjoy your writing, you add a lot. I'm just questioning a couple of things you said. Jesus - if I was getting personal, you'd know it, brother. ;)

Posted by: guest77 | Apr 15, 2014 12:54:54 AM | 67

Posted by: scalawag | Apr 14, 2014 7:10:14 PM | 38

People of the north in wintertime, everywhere. Buffalo New York, Canada, Russia, Poland, Hokkaido, and so on. Good people.

Posted by: fairleft | Apr 15, 2014 1:20:30 AM | 68

All this talk of MAD is unsettling. No matter how much money the plutocrats have they can't buy themselves security in a post-apocalyptic environment. When people's survival is at stake they do what would have seemed inconceivable a short time before.

Consider what happened to the Russian elite after 1917, starting with the czar and his whole family.

What guarantee do the men who really run this land have that they would even survive in a MAD type scenario, much less prosper?

Except in the caves with Dr. Strangelove, of course /:-{}

Posted by: rackstraw | Apr 15, 2014 1:41:53 AM | 69

@rackstraw #69:

Consider what happened to the Russian elite after 1917, starting with the czar and his whole family.

I am waiting for guest77 and bevin to jump in and say that that remark is "malicious and tendentious".

Posted by: Demian | Apr 15, 2014 1:52:50 AM | 70

(h/t james at 65) Paul Roberts:

The danger for Russia is that the Russian government will rely on diplomacy, international organizations, international cooperation, and on the common sense and self-interest of German politicians and politicians in other of Washington’s European puppet states.

For Russia this could be a fatal mistake. There is no good will in Washington, only mendacity.

Putin won't make that mistake. It's clear to him that swaying Germany over to common sense and Russia is a medium-term and not short-term consideration. Merkel will be a good puppet of the US (but only as long as she's not ordered to crash her economy). I think Putin is playing this game right, and that includes inserting a few plainclothes Russian organizers into the Eastern/Southern region.

All in all Roberts is a little too apocalyptic. The U.S. is a lot of bark and a lot of media propaganda, but there's little bite where it matters. Let's see that Ukraine military, where is it? No NATO, no UN, gimme a break. Let's see those devastating sanctions, haven't seen them yet. Finally, the media propaganda is having little 'war frenzy' effect. That last in part because many many people in the mainstream media comment sections are calling out the b.s. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

But that doesn't mean Roberts is wrong about the unrelenting US PTB hatred for Russia and for national sovereignty anywhere in the world.

Posted by: fairleft | Apr 15, 2014 1:54:42 AM | 71

There seems to be some agreement in the various comments above for the proposition that eastern catholicism is a sort of 'colonial implant' or 'divide and rule' entity.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Apr 15, 2014 3:18:11 AM | 72

Plus, I'm not sure if this has been stressed sufficiently: the Vatican has an extremely consistent and well-known record for actively supporting nazism in eastern Europe on the grounds that it was anti-communist, the communists being the only real enemies, and if you read some of the voluminous anti-communist atrocity propaganda produced by catholic writers, you can see why: they paint the communists as satanically inspired, sadistic atheists.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Apr 15, 2014 3:23:29 AM | 73

what not to do driving a tank

:-))

Posted by: somebody | Apr 15, 2014 4:00:02 AM | 74

b @1

Thanks. It was getting tiresome.

As to the Russian multi-ethnic state, it's remarkable how well they've handled that part of their history. I once had a passing acquaintance with Gorbachev's Minister for Ethnic Affairs and we had a nice discussion on it. At the time he was very concerned about the situation in Chechen Itsa, which was his main brief. We know how that worked out. They really wanted a peaceful resolution and thought they were going to be able to achieve it.

Posted by: Knut | Apr 15, 2014 4:08:54 AM | 75

The slaughter keep on
http://rt.com/news/kiev-military-operation-east-584/
With the backing of CIA.

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 15, 2014 4:32:24 AM | 76

Looks like, after attacking rowan, the communazi wankers are ganging up on Demien now.

Plus ca change . .

Demien, when the lying wankers say "its not personal" what they mean is "dont dare disagree with us or its going to get very personal" cos thats how dishonest wankers like guest and bevin roll

Posted by: brb | Apr 15, 2014 5:00:09 AM | 77

TMPress NEWSFLASH UKR Update ... (New York) ... /ITAR-TASS/ ... Interim mayor of Slavyansk Vyacheslav Ponomaryov announced that there are tanks of the Ukrainian armed forces moving towards the city. Representatives of the proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic stated they are ready for negotiations, though in case of agression, also for self-defense. Following ... a gallery of ITAR TASS reflects the tension these days in East Ukraine ...
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/727827
now WHO do they plan to use those tanks on? the icon toting grannies?

recall Yeltsin was happy enought to use tanks on the russian parliament

Posted by: brian | Apr 15, 2014 5:03:46 AM | 78

'communazi wanker'
@77
communazi? spoken like an american, who are usually unaware the communists were the ones tho did the real work ending nazism.

Posted by: brian | Apr 15, 2014 5:05:32 AM | 79

Posted by: Knut | Apr 15, 2014 4:08:54 AM | 75

the russians did...but under Putin

Posted by: brian | Apr 15, 2014 5:06:44 AM | 80

Some sense out of American think tanks regarding current global dynamics.

http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/the-slow-death-the-old-global-order-10247?page=2

IMO the only leader up to par with the global situation is Vladimir Putin.. And tho he commands a nation that is important,he cannot dictacte the terms of the new world order.
Iran has been pretty impressive, but that is because it has cleverly kept its involvement and goals strictly regional.

What im most afraid of is the current state of American politics, since the USA is bt far the most powerful actor. There is too much crazy and delusion for me to feel secure about the future.

EU? a bunch of puppets. I still hold some small hope that Germany/France will get their act together and pull an indepent Euro-core towards independece.. but thats only possible after the destruction of the EU as it exists today.

And Asia? .. all bets are off.

Posted by: EcMike | Apr 15, 2014 5:08:21 AM | 81

Posted by: Demian | Apr 14, 2014 8:38:28 PM | 47

sunni have not been set against shia in syria

Posted by: brian | Apr 15, 2014 5:08:24 AM | 82

I am simply tired of this stupid repetitive stuff.

Posted by: b | Apr 14, 2014 2:15:32 PM | 1

Exactly. Thank you, it had reached the point where I simply didn't bother to visit MOA.

Dubhaltach

Posted by: Dubhaltach | Apr 15, 2014 5:10:05 AM | 83

Yes, but SOME, not "ALL", so-called "communists" behave a lot like nazis (lies, distortion etc) on this site.

I named 2 of them for you

Posted by: brb | Apr 15, 2014 5:10:20 AM | 84

Oleg Tsarev is beaten seriously again by Svoboda (RT.com).
This is really disgusting by west to support!

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 15, 2014 5:48:34 AM | 85

Another biased UN report out on Ukraine that is not nice to Russia
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/15/ukraine-human-rights_n_5151161.html

I havent read it but some sites say that Russia "rigged" the election, intimated people, etc

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 15, 2014 6:03:16 AM | 86

"CIA director Brennan visisted Kiev and relayed Obama's orders."

The rump coup in Kiev is the product of yet another CIA "regime change" operation.

And this one is not going well. Thus the urgent "routine" visit of US drone-killer No. 1 Brennan.

Wait until IMF austerity hits home hard. All the State Department's horses (Nuland included) and the CIA's men won't be able to hold thim one together.

Arnold Lockshin, political exile from the US living in Moscow

Posted by: Arnold Lockshin | Apr 15, 2014 6:26:52 AM | 87

Posted by: brb | Apr 15, 2014 5:10:20 AM | 84

interesting reasoning

SOME, not "ALL", so-called "anticommunists" behave a lot like nazis (lies, distortion etc) on this site.

Posted by: brian | Apr 15, 2014 6:28:10 AM | 88


Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 15, 2014 6:03:16 AM | 86


this is the source - UN report on human rights in Ukraine and it sounds different from the Huffington post summary you quote

Chronic human rights violations were among the major reasons for the upheaval in Ukraine in recent months. For many years there have been concerns about weak rule of law, lack of accountability and resulting impunity. The right to a fair trial, equal access to justice, cases of torture and ill-treatment and poor detention conditions, are all matters of longstanding concern. The lack of independence of the judiciary must be remedied and the reform of the security sector and of the Prosecutor’s Office are also urgent tasks. Corruption is a cross-cutting problem that affects the rule of law as well as equal access to public services, and this also needs to be addressed swiftly.

All reforms and new policy measures must be adopted without any spirit of revenge and in a consultative, transparent and inclusive manner. It is crucial to ensure that one does not respond to human rights violations with other human rights violations. In the context of ongoing legislative measures concerning lustration, these must fully respect human rights and the rule of law, including the right to individual review and to appeal.

especially this stands out

In the context of the recent protests in Kiev and elsewhere, I am deeply concerned about alleged gross human rights violations, including excessive use of force and extra-judicial killings, torture, disappearances and arbitrary arrests and detentions. The actions of snipers on the Maidan are of particularly grave concern and need to be fully investigated. More than 100 people, mostly protesters , but also some members of the security forces have also lost their lives and many more were injured. I visited protest-related victims in hospital. I also spoke to physicians who helped victims in makeshift hospitals, including the current Minister of Health, Mr. Oleh Musiy and Ms. Olga Bogomolets. All of them confirmed that sniper killings of protesters were undertaken in an execution -style aiming for heads and chests.

The perpetrators of these and other human rights violations against all victims must be promptly brought to justice, whatever their background, status or affiliation, following independent, impartial and thorough investigations.

There has been an increase in instances of intolerance and incitement to hatred as well as violence throughout Ukraine. This has been particularly the case between ethnic Ukrainians and Russians, as well as pro-Maidan and anti-Maidan groups. I believe that these incidents further increased after the recent developments in Crimea.

The hasty repeal of the Law on Languages by Parliament was a mistake. The decision of Parliament was fortunately not approved by the acting President, so that the old law will continue to be in force while a new text is prepared. This process should be done in full consultation with all concerned, and be fully participatory, transparent and inclusive.

So the UN confirm Russian opinion that ethnic Russian speakers are targeted in Ukraine and they call for an independent investigation into Maidan snipers.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 15, 2014 6:37:01 AM | 89

Posted by: brian | Apr 15, 2014 6:28:10 AM | 88

brian, when will you learn, you are like Pavlov's dog. When someone gives you a summary without giving the source and pretends he is of your opinion/prejudice, it smells and you check the source.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 15, 2014 6:40:23 AM | 90

somebody

Really? It rather says that russian/russian speakers are as violent as the maidan extremists which is of course not true at all. Besides it also say that the crimea situation in a way caused this. Read: Those that wanted referendum is to be blamed.

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 15, 2014 6:46:35 AM | 91

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 15, 2014 6:46:35 AM | 91

It does not say that. That is your interpretation.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 15, 2014 6:54:33 AM | 92

somebody

No thats your interpretation. Read between the lines.

This has been particularly the case between ethnic Ukrainians and Russians, as well as pro-Maidan and anti-Maidan groups.
This quote say that both are equally bad.
I believe that these incidents further increased after the recent developments in Crimea.
This quote say that the referendum caused instability. Who wanted referndum? Who did not wanted the referendum? Who is to blame. Obvious.

Posted by: Anoynmous | Apr 15, 2014 7:08:36 AM | 93

What you are now discussing is a Statement to Security Council by Ivan Šimonović, Asst Sec-Gen for Human Rights. Who the hell is he and why do you find his words worth parsing?

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Apr 15, 2014 7:10:15 AM | 94

By the way, did you see this:

Right Sector stormed the HQ of Ukraine’s Communist Party in the north-eastern city of Sumy and beat up the secretary of Sumy regional committee, Valery Siryachenko, reported the local TSN TV channel. Right Sector also stormed the Communist Party HQ in the western city of Rovno.

http://rt.com/news/kiev-clashes-rioters-police-571/

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Apr 15, 2014 7:28:54 AM | 95

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Apr 15, 2014 7:10:15 AM | 94

Because a) an independent UN investigation into Maidan Snipers goes to the core of the legitimacy of the "Kyiv government"

and b)

Russia has claimed that Russian speakers in Ukraine are targeted - which has been described as propaganda/pretext in Western media - now the UN confirms it.

Posted by: Anoynmous | Apr 15, 2014 7:08:36 AM | 93

Can you think straight? If I say a and b, that does not mean there is a connection between a and b. You can put different emphasis on the a and b. But Šimonović statement also means that ethnic Russian speakers got targeted before Crimea.

Which is basically the foundation of Russia's claim to "Responsibility to Protect"

Posted by: somebody | Apr 15, 2014 7:32:00 AM | 96

somebody

UN is not an independent organ.
I would recomend you read earlier statement by Somonovic and see what Russia said about this man earlier.

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 15, 2014 7:56:56 AM | 97

coup regime launches "anti-terror" operations on the East with full overt/covert NATO backing...I guess everything goes downhill from here...Stay tuned! :)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27035196

Posted by: Zico | Apr 15, 2014 8:02:27 AM | 98

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 15, 2014 7:56:56 AM | 97

Don't you think that makes him even more credible when Russia has objected to his reports before?

Posted by: somebody | Apr 15, 2014 8:08:57 AM | 99

looking at things from the optimistic side
US DOLLAR-UKRAINE HRYVNIA Exchange Rate seems to be
stabilising somewhate in the past 24 hours
(ie no longer in freefall)

perhaps in the next 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 days ,
this crisis can/will be defused.

Posted by: chris m | Apr 15, 2014 8:12:32 AM | 100

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