Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 26, 2014

Ukraine: Media Obfuscate About "OSCE Observers"

Also Friday, a group of foreign military observers traveling under the auspices of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, along with their Ukrainian hosts, were detained by pro-Russian separatists in Slovyansk, the separatists and the Ukrainian government said.

The government said seven foreign observers and five Ukrainian military officers had been seized.
Defying Moscow, Ukraine Threatens to Blockade Pro-Russian Militants

The group was operating under the mandate of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) and comprised four Germans, a Pole, a Dane, a Swede and a Czech officer. According to the Ukrainian interior ministry, they were being escorted by five members of the Ukrainian armed forces when their bus was seized by separatists.
Ukraine: pro-Russian separatists hold European military observers captive

Now, how is the above reporting consistent with this?

OSCE @OSCE

1/4 Comms with military observers in Donetsk region lost.Team not OSCE monitors but sent by States under Vienna Doc on military transparency

OSCE @OSCE

2/4 All members of the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission and OSCE/ODIHR election observers are safe and accounted for

OSCE @OSCE

3/4 Military verification team - led by Germans – and composed of 8 members – 4 Germans, 1 Czech, 1 Danish, 1 Polish, 1 Swedish

OSCE @OSCE

4/4 Military verification team sent following invitation from Ukraine under terms of Vienna Document 2011

The captured foreign officers were there at the invitation of Ukrainian coup-government and accompanied by Ukrainian officers. While the Vienna Document 2011 was exchanged within the framework of the OSCE the military observer mission under the document, like the one captured in Slovyansk, are bilateral and not under organizational OSCE control (see para 18: VOLUNTARY HOSTING OF VISITS TO DISPEL CONCERNS ABOUT MILITARY ACTIVITIES). This was not an OSCE mission but a multilateral visit under a paper that was signed between OSCE countries.

The coup-government has labeled the protesters in eastern Ukraine as "terrorists" and only yesterday some of them were, allegedly, killed by Ukrainian troops. How would anybody with a sane mind send foreign military observers and Ukrainian officers into towns where those "terrorists" are having the upper hand? For what purpose if not to spy for the Ukrainian government which plans to recapture those towns by military force?

UPDATE:

In case someone doubts the official OSCE position as expressed in the tweets above here is a TV interview (in German) by the Austrian TV with the vice president of the OSCE crisis prevention center Claus Neukirch. He points out several times that the military observers caught in eastern Ukraine are acting under a bilateral (German-Ukrainian) deal within the framework of a document which was once signed during OSCE consultations. Neither the paper nor the missions under it are, Neukirch says, within the official OSCE framework. The OSCE does have 150 strong civilian mission in Ukraine which is neutral in its position and is trying to locally intermediate between waring sides. Neukirch also says that the official civilian OSCE mission is not involved in any negotiations about the caught bilateral military mission. That mission's fate is a problem for Germany and Ukraine to solve.

Posted by b on April 26, 2014 at 05:01 AM | Permalink

Comments
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Anyone understand the vienna document? Exactly why are western military running around in Ukraine?

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 26, 2014 5:39:04 AM | 1

I am having trouble understanding how a team of sold out European country reps will deliver an impartial report. Am I missing something here? Or wait, are we suppose to now suddenly trust high European morals and values?

Posted by: Mohsin | Apr 26, 2014 6:42:01 AM | 2

whos sitting in the chair of ukraine president? the real ruler
Russian Market ‏@russian_market 19h
Ukraine is a great and independent country - Joe Biden says while sitting in the chair of the Ukrainian President
pic.twitter.com/rPcjuKRuG0

Posted by: brian | Apr 26, 2014 6:48:27 AM | 3

Exactly why are western military running around in Ukraine?

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 26, 2014 5:39:04 AM | 1

let me think about that for a few hours...

Posted by: brian | Apr 26, 2014 6:53:22 AM | 4

israelis in tel aviv rally in support of the antifascists in Ukraine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gb-m2QWPxDc

Posted by: brian | Apr 26, 2014 7:23:28 AM | 5

Posted by: Mohsin | Apr 26, 2014 6:42:01 AM | 2

Russia is a member of OSCE. When Gorbachev (and Reagan) ended the 1st Cold War, Russia preferred an OSCE (Russian/European) security architecture - obviously being the dominant power there - but had to agree to NATO playing the part so Russia cooperated with NATO. A cooperation that NATO seems to have ended now.

OSCE is the most impartial there to get and Russia has a motive to bolster it.

The whole crisis is a complete defeat of the Obama administration policy of "reset" with Russia and "pivot" to China.

Basically, there is no Western strategy left.

This "OSCE" mission barely covered under an agreement that means to build trust between countries by inspecting each other's forces is complete stupidity to say the least.

It seems Europe's strategy to "balance" Russia's power with the US has just imploded in Ukraine.

The Northern Alliance is about to have won the elections in Afghanistan and Assad is winning in Syria?

Right, back now to Chechens and the Taliban. Don't forget to send weapons to Pravy Sektor in Ukraine. That way we have a chance to send our soldiers to Afghanistan, Syria, the Caucasus and Ukraine to clean up the mess.

Some people should get fired.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 26, 2014 7:38:17 AM | 6

Oh dear, Oberst Axel Schneider, leading the Ukrainian "armament control" group gave an interview to German radio recently on his "for now diplomatic mission"

Brief translation: He is there to check on the fighting ability of the Ukrainian military, the morale of the soldiers, their offensive or defensive posture, and no, no, they do not look out for Russians ....

So how did they manage to get into rebel controlled area?

Posted by: somebody | Apr 26, 2014 8:00:41 AM | 7

Were these people armed or threatening anyone in any way? I don't see a particular problem with that in light of some of the goons seen running around the Ukraine lately.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Apr 26, 2014 8:01:36 AM | 8

Posted by: ralphieboy | Apr 26, 2014 8:01:36 AM | 8

No, no problem, just preposterous to accuse Russia of meddling with your own hands in the pot ....

Posted by: somebody | Apr 26, 2014 8:03:29 AM | 9

​Ukraine govt asks public to donate soap, linen for special ‘anti-separatist’ units
The cash-stripped Ukrainian Interior Ministry is asking the public for donations to equip the newly formed special forces. It is offering a place in a public commission, which would control the cash flow, to biggest donors.

The coup leaders are 'crowd-sourcing' and seeking 'donations' to fund and equip the 'ant-separatist' forces ? Asked to risk life and limb for such generous conditions as 12hour workdays and salary of $45USD/month (a fraction of a Ukrainian 'Living wage') ... so far supposedly recruited 8,000 of 12,000 since April 13, yet can't cloth equip or feed them ?

The US isn't putting hard cash on the table until they see results and the Oligarchs backing the coup are'nt coughing up either ... the coup leaders have no real backing, the Ukrainian Military and institutions are clearly sitting this out, no hard financial support and there's clearly a dearth of backing from Joe Average Ukrainians either. Can't recall another 'recognized by the International community' coup blatantly built on shifting sand, hell, thin air ?.

Not surprising Russia and the the Anti-coup Ukrainians seem content to wait to a degree for it to collapse under its own weight or simply evaporate ... the puschists better have exit plans in place or they may well end up on the receiving end as the treasonous 'Terrorists' ...

Posted by: Outraged | Apr 26, 2014 8:04:34 AM | 10

somebody

These people try to hide they are spies sigh.

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 26, 2014 8:05:13 AM | 11

"How would anybody with a sane mind send foreign military observers and Ukrainian officers into towns where those "terrorists" are having the upper hand?"

sane mind?!?! i posted this the other day, but who clicks links? i think their little gambit is just one more piece in a sophistic pattern of interference. as Joaquin says, although there's been great fanfare about armies and armor penetrating the east, the anti-kiev folks are still firmly entrenched in their ministries. tragically, some people have died, but it's still largely a war of rumor and fakery.

Posted by: john | Apr 26, 2014 8:08:50 AM | 12

Is it true that kiev have cut water to crimea or/and eastern regions? Thats a grave international crime if true.

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 26, 2014 8:16:19 AM | 13

Will the Ukraine Crisis Impact Russia's Mideast Policy?

By Mark N. Katz

http://www.lobelog.com/will-the-ukraine-crisis-impact-russias-mideast-policy/

As if the crisis in Ukraine wasn't bad enough, the resulting tensions between Russia on the one hand and the US and most of Europe on the other will likely cause increased tension between Moscow and the West in the Middle East. Moscow can be expected to become even more supportive of the Assad regime's campaign against its opponents in Syria and even less willing to pressure it to pursue peace. Additionally, Moscow may be less willing to pressure Iran to make concessions in its ongoing negotiations with world powers over the nuclear issue. Russia will also try to expand its influence to other Middle Eastern countries.

However, apart from the Syrian regime, others in the Middle East may not welcome these efforts. No matter how much they disagree with Washington on various issues, America's Arab allies do not see Russia as willing or able to underpin their security like the United States. Indeed, those concerned that the Obama administration is withdrawing from the Middle East will not be pleased about Moscow diverting Washington's attention to European affairs. Furthermore, Russia and the Middle East compete with each other in the petroleum market. Middle Eastern gas exporters in particular will see a growing European desire to reduce dependence on Russian gas as an opportunity to increase their sales to Europe, which will be met with scorn from Moscow.

In Syria Moscow played on Western hopes for cooperation with Russia as a means of dissuading Washington from arming the Syrian opposition or intervening on their behalf. Now that the Ukraine crisis has shattered these hopes, the West may become less reluctant to arm the Syrian opposition and more willing to look for alternatives to the jihadist groups they want to avoid. Moscow may still succeed in helping the Assad regime recapture most (if not all) of Syria, but the cost of doing so will now go up.

Iran may also pose more of a problem for Moscow. Now that Russian ties with the West have soured over Ukraine, Moscow may prefer to see Iran remaining at odds with the West rather than improving relations. While there is certainly debate in Iran about the desirability of moving closer to the West, Russia is generally seen by Iranians as a rival and not a friend. Indeed, there are some in Iran who see the worsening of Russian-Western relations as an opportunity for Iran. Growing Western interest in seeing Iranian gas as an alternative to dependence on Russian resources could actually increase the West's willingness to reduce its economic sanctions on Tehran.

Moscow can also be expected to seek improved ties with other Middle Eastern governments that differ with America over various issues, including its support for Israel and its half-hearted efforts to promote democratization. It is doubtful, though, that Arab governments or publics will see Moscow as much of a champion for the Palestinian cause at a time when Russian-Israeli relations have grown increasingly close. Egypt's military-dominated government may be unhappy with President Barack Obama for suspending arms transfers over Cairo's crackdown on the Muslim Brotherhood and other internal opponents, but the Egyptian military's threat of turning to Russia for arms may not be realistic. Egyptian armed forces would have a hard time integrating Russian weaponry into what is now a mainly US-trained and armed force structure. And like Iran, Arab gas exporters (Qatar, Algeria, and potentially Libya) all stand to benefit from European efforts to reduce dependence on Russian gas supplies.

Moreover, Moscow's annexation of Crimea could lead to an important problem for Russia's image among Sunnis in the Middle East and elsewhere. If the Muslim Crimean Tatar population, which largely opposed Russia's move on their territory, is treated badly by their new rulers, concern for their plight could rise in the Muslim World. Renewed opposition activity inside Russia's North Caucasus and other predominantly Muslim regions and the brutal response this would elicit from Moscow, combined with continued Russian support for Syria's Alawite minority regime and Shi'a Iran, could contribute to Turks and Sunni Arabs also seeing Russia as anti-Sunni - and to their seeing the West as an essential ally against a common Russian threat.

Finally, the more absorbed the Russian leadership becomes with affairs in Ukraine and Europe in general, the more Moscow's ability to devote attention and resources to the Middle East may actually decline. Whether Moscow will now be able to increase its influence in the Middle East, then, is very much open to doubt.

Posted by: virgile | Apr 26, 2014 9:14:07 AM | 14

naturally
RT ‏@RT_com 34m
LATEST: #Ukraine's defense minister retracts claims that Russian planes violated Ukrainian airspace http://on.rt.com/tz3aiy

Posted by: brian | Apr 26, 2014 9:26:51 AM | 15

'However, apart from the Syrian regime'
@14
its syrian Government, mr katz...not 'regime'

Posted by: brian | Apr 26, 2014 9:28:05 AM | 16

More on captured fake OSCE team

Team not OSCE monitors but sent by States under Vienna Doc on military transparency
Link


According to LifeNews video, those inspectors detained in #Sloviansk are:
1) John G.Ø. Christensen from #Denmark pic.twitter.com/nTw9R644My
Link


John Gerhard Østergaard Christensen's photos
Link


Johny Boy was rolling the streets of Ukraine since 19th November, agent under the cover blanket of OSCE (a follow up)
Link


Crimea&East ‏@IndependentKrym 15 hrs
@PiwowarMicha @GrahamWP_UK they had OSCE label on the bus,a couple of handpicked real OSCE obs to make"we are the OSCE convoy"credible. sly

Posted by: Anon | Apr 26, 2014 9:34:01 AM | 17

@ Virgile 14,

Some good points, but fortunately for Russia, US diplomacy is so poor and their willingness to compromise on their objectives is so non-existent that it really wont matter much. While it makes sense for the US and Europe to reconcile with Iran to gain an alternate source of gas, they clearly aren't doing it. Barring Iran's chosen UN ambassador is a totally unnecessary slap in the face and doesn't point to easing of any sanctions anytime soon. The west simply can't allow a Muslim country to grow to be much stronger than Israel...which is what would happen if sanctions are lifted and hundreds of billions flow into the Iranian economy. OTOH, Russia can offer to buy Iranian oil and gas and resell it to Europe and China. Because it seems Russia is going to be supplying gas in both directions, they might need to.

At the same time, there's been nothing to stop Qatar or anyone other PG monarchy from selling its gas to Europe. But without a pipeline, they just can't compete with Russian gas.

The Crimean Tatars are hardly a blip on anyone's radar screen at the moment, and it seems they are ready to accept that Russian rule will be a much better deal than what they had under Ukraine.

The other Arab nations will change their views of Moscow based on its success in Ukraine and Syria. If Russia is viewed as having faced down the US and NATO in Ukraine and as having helped defeat the NATO mercenary invasion of Syria, then its stock will go way up. And while a country like Egypt is unlikely to throw out the US in exchange for Russia (not that Russia would need another economic dependency) I can certainly see Egypt offering friendly docking privileges in Alexandria for the Russian Navy. Algeria is another potential friend of Russia.

By contrast, the US will be offering its protection to the Baltic states, to Poland, to Japan, To Israel (most crucial of all), to Saudi Arabia, etc. It will be pivoting to Asia all while maintaining its confrontational stance against Iran and Russia. After a while, US guarantees become less credible.

Posted by: Lysander | Apr 26, 2014 10:01:15 AM | 18

in regard to Crimean Tatars...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHyWctkHduI&list=UUweyNwo4cZM5gsIpuG4Zlew&feature=share&index=18

Posted by: john | Apr 26, 2014 10:35:15 AM | 19

I don't think the opinions of the Arab states are of any great importance.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Apr 26, 2014 10:37:11 AM | 20

the pro-ukrainian Officers daughters meme finds its answer (google trans below)
Crimea gave his answer " Daughters officer"

 Crimea gave his answer " Daughters officer"
In Sevastopol, at the monument to the Scuttled Ships eve Rally after a famous propaganda meme " daughter of an officer ." The essence of the history of the Internet meme is as follows : after the reunification of the Crimea and Sevastopol with Russian , Ukrainian junta launched a massive information campaign aimed at discrediting any positive changes in the Crimea.

Along with major news sources , the fight came to Crimea and various small contractors who hired commentators paid to work on Internet resources of the Crimea. Since obvious agitation in favor of the junta Ukrainian Crimea does not enjoy success , advocates came from the other side , appearing either Crimeans or Russians who first expressed their support for the changes , but then began to agitate in the spirit that "in Ukraine have been better ."

In this case , one of the promoters introduced " êðûì ÷ àíêà , the daughter of an officer ," and began to tell me that in the Crimea " is not so clear ." In this propagandist wrote it from a male name , so that the phrase " daughter of an officer " became an instant meme , which began to be used in the context of a stupid and clumsy propaganda.

According to one eyewitness , the comment was published under the video "Getting Ukrainian army soldier to Russian ." Under the most popular version of the roller is left over 10,000 views , and because of the imperfect system Commenting YouTube to find among them the statement " Kakegotama " is not possible.


Actually it was a stupid and clumsy Ukrainian propaganda was devoted to a flash mob in Sevastopol , where youth activists went vests with posters " In Crimea, all clear ! " and " Daughter officer" , as well as flags and portraits of the Russian Federation Putin , reports On the eve . Thus , the Crimean youth with humor gives his answer Kiev propagandists .

Daughters officers Sevastopol | Photo: On the eve Daughters officers Sevastopol | Photo: On the eve

Ridicule obvious stupidity Ukrainian junta does not mean that in the Crimea dismiss real problems. Have an understanding of certain difficulties still to be overcome , and then, of course , not all of us uniquely , but in terms of historical choices made March 16, 2014 , the issue was settled in Crimea quite definitely

http://www.nakanune.ru/news/2014/4/26/22350636/

Posted by: brian | Apr 26, 2014 10:41:47 AM | 21

Ukraine cuts water supply to Russia's Crimea
http://rt.com/news/line/2014-04-26/#60172

This is a grave crime!

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 26, 2014 10:46:05 AM | 22

"Fog of War"

This group of OSCE observers was on a military mission based on a bilateral agreement between the interim regime in Kiev with the OSCE.

The document with photos of "Russian soldiers" in the Ukraine was part of a report by Kiev regime to the OSCE. On RT it was reported by Bob Gisling, the Ukraine regime had employed a PR company to clarify the East-West divide and write press releases to propagate how moderate the Kiev regime operates. I couldn't find the PR company yet, but Kerry was be reading these press releases.

In the Geneva agreement between EU, US, Ukraine and Russia, a complete different OSCE mission was agreed upon. See here:

Ertogrul Apakan is head of the OSCE Monitoring Mission to Ukraine

The Special Monitoring Mission will consist initially of 100 civilian monitors operating as necessary 24/7 in teams. The Chief Monitor will notify the Chairmanship, the Permanent Council, and the host country of the concrete modalities, based on the needs on the ground. As necessary and according to the situation, the mission may expand by a total of up to 400 additional monitors. Monitors will initially be deployed to Kherson, Odessa, Lviv, Ivano-Frankivsk, Kharkiv, Donetsk, Dnepropetrovsk, Chernivtsi, Luhansk. The head office will be in Kyiv. Any change in deployment shall be subject to a decision of the Permanent Council.

Posted by: Oui | Apr 26, 2014 10:47:08 AM | 23

@19 Great speech, but I kind of balked when he said that the USSR was a 'Zionist creation'... Wut?

Apart from that one caveat, good stuff, thanks for link.

Posted by: Massinissa | Apr 26, 2014 10:51:59 AM | 24

Oui

Was this team part of the OSCE agreement?

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 26, 2014 11:07:45 AM | 25

Posted by: Oui | Apr 26, 2014 10:47:08 AM | 23

Your first link is another one. This one where the observers were arrested was not agreed with OSCE, it was bilateral Germany - Ukraine (Kyiv Government) done under an OSCE agreement that enables such missions - pretext armament control but according to an interview given by the German military guy leading the mission was supposed to check the readiness of Eastern Ukraine's army.
How they ended up in rebel controlled are is their secret.

As long as the West keeps up the fiction that the Kyiv government is the legitimate government of Ukraine and has to be supported in its effort to gain control of the country, this nonsense will continue, as Russia obviously means to prove the opposite.


Posted by: somebody | Apr 26, 2014 11:08:23 AM | 26

Lysander


It seems that Iran's emergence from decades of Western economical boycott will certainly provoke a wave of realignments in the region. One wonders is the Ukranian crisis is not one of the consequences of the possible re-inclusion of Iran as a energy provider to the West in replacement of Russia.
I think the crisis in Ukraine, Syria, Iraq and Turkey are clearly linked to the gas-oil energy situation in the region, with Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Russia competing for getting the largest share of the european energy needs though pipelines and deals.
Other actors such as Khazastan may soon be exposed to similar "crisis"...

Posted by: Virgile | Apr 26, 2014 11:11:59 AM | 27

offiers daughters of krimea
a meme went around crimea at the time of the referendum, to try to scuttle the referendum using officers daughters....the ip addresses of these were found to be in US or Bahrain:
this is what this youtube commentator says :
'Для тех, кто не понял прикола.
В марте, еще до крымского референдума, на многих интернет-ресурсах появлялись вбросы в стиле "Я - жена/дочь/сестра офицера, живу в Крыму/Севастополе 10/15/50 лет. Поверьте, здесь всё не так однозначно..." и дальше шел текст типа "на самом деле тут кроме горстки путлерюгенда не хочет в Россию, слава Украине и т.д."

Когда такие посты от "родственниц офицеров" стали появляться десятками в день, народ на про-российских форумах уже ржал с них в голос, особенно когда обнаруживалось, что посты писались с американских, бахрейнских и других иностранных IP. не имеющих ни к России ни к Украине никакого отношения.

Вбросы продолжались где-то до начала апреля, сейчас их почти нет

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCBV7lzr1XY

Posted by: brian | Apr 26, 2014 11:17:49 AM | 28

@19 Great speech, but I kind of balked when he said that the USSR was a 'Zionist creation'... Wut?Apart from that one caveat, good stuff, thanks for link.

Posted by: Massinissa | Apr 26, 2014 10:51:59 AM | 24

Certainly might have been more accurate had he said "USSR was a creation of Wall St bankers, many, but not all, of whom were Jewish"

Posted by: tst | Apr 26, 2014 11:36:12 AM | 29

@ Anonymous | Apr 26, 2014 11:07:45 AM | #25

This (military) group was NOT part of the special OSCE Mission under Geneva agreement, see somebody #26.

OSCE observers 'seized' by separatists in Ukraine's east, Kyiv says

German Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen said four Germans were in the group - three members of the German armed forces, the Bundeswehr, and an interpreter.

Der Spiegel: Ukraine Crisis Exposes Gaps Between Berlin and NATO

US Gen. Breedlove and NATO SG Rasmussen are imposing policy on its European members. This seems to be new policy designed by the Obama administration as advocated by former NATO Ambassador Ivo Daalder at the Atlantic Council.

"Isolate Putin's Russia so it will become a pariah state."

Posted by: Oui | Apr 26, 2014 11:38:21 AM | 30

More great info from Gordon Duff:
Ukrainian Underbelly, the Hidden Combatant

AIPAC gambling boss may flee US

Obama needs to take care of the internal threats, he's harmless against Russia.

Posted by: ProPeace | Apr 26, 2014 11:40:44 AM | 31

Virgile,

It's a very interesting subject. For the west to do what you are suggesting means accepting Iran as *THE* dominant power in the Persian Gulf. Not only will Iran become wealthy with the sanctions lifted, but its leadership over the Iran-Iraq-Syria-Lebanon (all of it, not just Hezbollah) axis becomes recognized. That axis with Iraqi and Iranian wealth can then proceed to buy off the rest of the middle east, Egypt in particular and possibly Jordan as well.

And then what about eastern Saudi Arabia? Such regional power could destabilize it and bring the Shia dominated Saudi oil patch into the Axis.

Would Israel ever allow them to accept such a thing? And even without Israel, would the west accept such a power in such a critical part of the world? My guess is no but with the fullness of time we shall see.

Add to that the general arrogance of the west that makes them believe they can get every concession from everyone without having to give anything back. They still think they can somehow bring Russia to heal while doing the same to Iran AND(!!) China.

By the time they figure out they can't it will be too late.

Posted by: Lysander | Apr 26, 2014 11:45:12 AM | 32

I should add that hopefully Russian diplomacy will not be idle during all this and that they are right now in Iran discussing weapons deals, and means of bringing Iranian oil and gas to market in a way that is mutually beneficial. At the very least it would greatly raise the price the US/NATO would have to offer Iran...though I still don't think they will go that rout.

Posted by: Lysander | Apr 26, 2014 11:52:07 AM | 33

Years ago, I dated the daughter of a Soviet officer. She taught me clean Russian, as she would not tolerate slopply grammar or Westernism.

Yes, but she was gorgeous, clever, icy-cold. She probably still is.

Posted by: sid_finster | Apr 26, 2014 12:27:28 PM | 34

Here come the John Birch Society memes again. Some old assholes never die, they just smell dead (unless your nose is dead too). If the US mass mind wasn't inherently fascist, it wouldn't keep surfacing this stuff like it was the secret of the universe:

@19 Great speech, but I kind of balked when he said that the USSR was a 'Zionist creation'... Wut?Apart from that one caveat, good stuff, thanks for link. Posted by: Massinissa | Apr 26, 2014 10:51:59 AM | 24 Certainly might have been more accurate had he said "USSR was a creation of Wall St bankers, many, but not all, of whom were Jewish" Posted by: tst | Apr 26, 2014 11:36:12 AM | 29

No, mate, that's balls too. Anthony Sutton. What else?
More great info from Gordon Duff: Ukrainian Underbelly, the Hidden Combatant, AIPAC gambling boss may flee US. Obama needs to take care of the internal threats, he's harmless against Russia. Posted by: ProPeace | Apr 26, 2014 11:40:44 AM | 31

You have a real liking for disinfo, misinfo, and fabricated garbage generally, you irritatingly anodyne named person. Wonder why.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Apr 26, 2014 12:41:58 PM | 35

No, mate, that's balls too. Anthony Sutton. What else?

Simply amazing what passes for a counter-argument these days.

"BALLS!"

So the Russian Revolutionaries were NOT supplied with funds, transported to Russia by a William Boyce Thompson, a director of the Federal Reserve of NY?

I think youre wrong. In fact i know youre wrong

So "balls" to you, Sir.


Posted by: tst | Apr 26, 2014 12:57:58 PM | 36

Meanwhile, Some ppl get around ..

Here is Yats with the Pope. 26 April 2014. One pic:

http://tinyurl.com/ooqzhg5

At the end of their talk, the Pope gave him a pen, and said “I hope you will write peace with this pen.”

Yats responded by giving the Pope a picture of the Maidan square (which by now is total wreck btw, so who knows what charming respectable pic he pulled out of his sleeve), telling the Pope:

“It is right here that the People of Ukraine fought for their Liberty and Rights.” > from Swiss news.

Hardly an equal exchange, pen for an outdated photo?

Yats de-camped smartly. One article, Kiev post:

http://tinyurl.com/lxdaql7

;) :) Yeah a bit of light relief but howl, it is all serious.

Posted by: Noirette | Apr 26, 2014 1:33:48 PM | 37

@6;Fired?How about firing squad.Think of all the money,lives and American interests destroyed by these traitors within.
@20;Yeah they the Arab rulers,are all American stooges,which does make them irrelevant.
And why is Russia held to such a higher truthiness standard?The whole situation is laughable to any real unbiased reasonable mind(of course its hard to set parameters on truth),as Russia is obviously responding to western pressure,as I can not remember any aggression by Russia towards Europe or US in the last shh....70 years? maybe even more if we discount cold warrior ravings,only recent actions in Chechnya and Georgia,the former reminding me somewhat as if Mexican Americans NM revolted against US rule(of course not exactly the same),and even the Georgian episode,our MSM has even somewhat walked back on their Russian aggression angle.
And on supposedly intelligent reader sites like the Graun,there is an significant amount of people to whom the facts don't matter,and their visceral hatred of Putin,and Russia shine through.The Serial Liars Protection Organization.(SLIPO)And their agenda seems pro homosexual,feminist and Zionist.Homophobic?Another propaganda word for people who won't validate their lifestyle,but who really don't care if they live that lifestyle, just validate it for yourself.Like holocaust denier.Never met anyone who denied the results,just question intent and illogical methodology,and question the integrity and impartiality of the judges and fact?providers.
And I believe Russia has experience with Western sanctions,so they'll weather the blowhard stormers.

Posted by: dahoit | Apr 26, 2014 1:41:00 PM | 38

@tst, William Boyce Thompson saw the Russian Revolution as an investment opportunity. He was no more a "socialist" than George Soros, his modern day counterpart.

Posted by: ruralito | Apr 26, 2014 1:43:11 PM | 39

38

Nothing more than your intrepretation of Thompsons motivation.

Perhaps Thompson saw Socialism as a good way to wreck Russia for a decade or two?

Why do you invent things about Thompson being socialist?

Why the need to immediately resort to strawmen?

Posted by: tst | Apr 26, 2014 1:50:46 PM | 40

Posted by: ProPeace | Apr 26, 2014 11:40:44 AM | 31

Thanks for link of the vegas/aipac crime boss might be going down.

Posted by: jo6pac | Apr 26, 2014 2:07:59 PM | 41

I can show you imperialist wars great and small that were definitely planned by bankers, and indeed, as I often point out, Hobson's 1902 book, "Imperialism", which was an influence upon Lenin's 1916 "Imperialism", states very clearly that the bankers' clique in London that organised the pressure campaign for the Boer War was Jewish. But it makes no sense to claim that bankers organised a communist revolution whose first act was to expropriate the Russian branches of their banks.

Not that anything at all is impossible; it's just so fantastically unlikely that if you hadn't been started off by a determination to discredit the whole idea of communism, you wouldn't entertain it for a moment. In fact it goes with another myth, namely that Marx was a secret agent for Britain, and specifically for Palmerston's foreign office, which was, it's true, trying very hard to gain and retain control of all the "Young Greece", "Young Hungary", etc type nationalist movements in Europe which were generally aimed against the Hapsburgs, the Ottomans, or both at once. But they were not communist movements. Marx was interested in influencing them in a communist direction if possible, and in discouraging any involvement with anarchism, which he hated, but that's about it.

The point I was making, though, is why do we have to wade through all this again and again/ Why do people devote themselves to posting and reposting about it on all sorts of boards and threads with which it has nothing to do? And the answer is that they are either dupes or agents of the tedious ultra-right, capitalist-individualist propaganda which USAians are brainwashed from birth into idolising. Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with the real world, or as little to do with it as an episode of "Laramie" or "The High Chaparral". Antiwar.com is a good example of this, and I pride myself on having blown several of its writers clean out of the water, one at least never to return, and hopefully to give up the libertarian opiate for good.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Apr 26, 2014 2:10:44 PM | 42

"USSR was a creation of Wall St bankers, many, but not all, of whom were Jewish"

Oh yes - certainly, that was key. Forget about the 50 years of European socialist history that lead up to it. Forget about the revolutionary conditions in Russia since the 1820s. Forget about the millions of people that rose up to topple the Czar and fought in the Civil War. Forget about all that...

The key is that this one guy (whom you read about in some book that people lately peddle all over the internet like over ripe fruit) may have given the communists money - therefore: "USSR was a creation of Wall St bankers, many, but not all, of whom were Jewish".

History is easy! Find a factoid, blow its relevance completely out of proportion and spin into a worldview that suits your own personal idiosyncrasies. And your done!

Of course, there's the matter of that other factoid - because the German's gave Lenin a train ride, "USSR was a creation of the German Empire." I'm sure there are more - whatever fits one's point of view for the moment, really.

Communism is an idea that gives people all over the globe a reason to fight - and you won't find too many Jews deep in the Colombian jungles, or in the forests of India or the heights of Nepal. Nor in the halls of power in Beijing, or Hanoi. As to the Russian Revolution - it was made by Russians, Ukrainians, Kazakhs, and every other group that lived, starving, in the carcass of the Russian Empire.

Posted by: guest77 | Apr 26, 2014 2:16:17 PM | 43

"Nothing more than your intrepretation of Thompsons motivation."

Does that make it wrong?

"Perhaps Thompson saw Socialism as a good way to wreck Russia for a decade or two?"

or, to get heavy industry into private hands.

"Why do you invent things about Thompson being socialist?"

No, that's your invention.

"Why the need to immediately resort to strawmen?"

What are you talking about?

Posted by: ruralito | Apr 26, 2014 2:16:38 PM | 44

Interview, with portions on Ukraine, with Economist Michael Hudson:

So about a week or two ago the Russian TV station ARD sent an investigative team into Ukraine to find out what was behind all of this Maidan shooting and the sniping. And they found out that Obama and Kerry were lying through their teeth and they talked to the witnesses, they talked to the doctors, they talked to the relatives of the shooters. The shooting came from the Ukraine Hotel which is where the American-backed snipers were shooting from and it was all essentially pushed by what’s called the Right Sector. These are really the Pinochet people. America’s trying to do in Ukraine what it did in Chile. It’s backing a terrorist organisation to come in and just shoot people who oppose American policy, meaning people who believe they should be paid for their gas and so forth.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article38332.htm

Posted by: guest77 | Apr 26, 2014 2:28:34 PM | 45

This here is the original ARD report with subtitles. Hudson misrepresents a few things - probably lost in translation.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 26, 2014 2:38:51 PM | 46

1)

"Why do you invent things about Thompson being socialist?"

No, that's your invention.

Posted by: ruralito | Apr 26, 2014 2:16:38 PM | 43

NO, that is YOUR invention - you said @38

"He was no more a "socialist" than George Soros" Posted by: ruralito | Apr 26, 2014 1:43:11 PM | 38

You are the one that introduced the strawman that Thompson was some sort of socialist. No one mentioned the notion of Thompson being a socialist until you introduced it @38


2)

"Why the need to immediately resort to strawmen?"

What are you talking about?

Posted by: ruralito | Apr 26, 2014 2:16:38 PM | 43

See 1), above

3)

"Nothing more than your interpretation of Thompson's motivation."

Does that make it wrong?

Not necessarily, no.

BUT it certainly doesn't make it right either

Posted by: tst | Apr 26, 2014 2:53:00 PM | 47

As to the Russian Revolution - it was made by Russians, Ukrainians, Kazakhs, and every other group that lived, starving, in the carcass of the Russian Empire.

Posted by: guest77 | Apr 26, 2014 2:16:17 PM | 42

Maybe so - but it's the financing we're discussing here - and whether you like it or not, Wall St Financiers provided funds for a Member of the brand-spanking newly created illegal Federal Reserve of NY to transport to russia, just after the revolution

Posted by: tst | Apr 26, 2014 2:56:52 PM | 48

History is easy! Find a factoid, blow its relevance completely out of proportion

So Wall Street financing Russian Revolutionaries is irrelevant, according to you. Thanks for letting us all know how you feel about that.

Your opinion as to it's alleged lack of relevance still won't erase the fact that Wall Street financed Russian Revolutionaries when no one else would

Posted by: tst | Apr 26, 2014 3:00:17 PM | 49

NATO’s Incremental Absorption of Ukraine

This historical review of the relations between NATO and Ukraine puts de facto into perspective one’s analysis of the events in Kiev: since 1991 and its accession to the Atlantic Cooperation Council, Ukraine has apparently moved inexorably closer to the Alliance without ever consulting the population.

I hadn't realized that USG's working towards the absorption of the Ukraine into NATO has been so sustained and systematic. Clearly, Crimea reuniting with Russia was not part of the plan. given that the US Navy has been renovating public schools in Sevastopol in generous acts of "humanitarian assistance".

Clearly, a Ukrainian state within its present borders becoming part of NATO is unacceptable to Russia. The only way that the Ukraine can remain a unified state is if it gives some form of binding and credible assurances that it will remain neutral (writing that into the constitution, perhaps).

Posted by: Demian | Apr 26, 2014 3:01:37 PM | 50

Lysander@32 Speculates on a realignment in the middle east, I agree, backing the "axis of Evil" or the shia ark Iran, Syria,Hez and Iraq would not mean alienating the Sunni, who even in Syria comprise the Majority of both the army and Government.
It would certainly annoy the Medieval dictators in the Gulf and their Islamist head choppers, and certainly their crowns would be at risk with such a development. Alexander Orlof has a good article on this in Vetstoday here http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/04/24/neo-usa-in-mid-east-going-going-gone/ "The White House clearly ignores the fact that Iran’s relations with Russia are based on a legal basis and are quickly developing into a strategic partnership, despite the attempts made by the West and the United States try to make this look like a temporary interaction.
Regarding the above-mentioned agreement between Iran and Russia, one can state that the US is not simply afraid of some country being able to bypass sanctions and thus achieve a sharp decline in external pressure on Iran, it’s terrified by it".

Posted by: harrylaw | Apr 26, 2014 3:02:42 PM | 51

Haha Russia must be so scared
http://presstv.com/detail/2014/04/26/360199/eu-to-expand-sanctions-against-russia/
Why are EU so pathetic that they do whatever obama tells them to?

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 26, 2014 3:03:09 PM | 52

So - when the US finances AL Q in syria, and Ne-Nazis in Ukraine, it is relevant.

when Wall St finances Russian Revolutionaries, it's just simply not relevant

Ok got it.

Not sure how that works, but at least I know where you stand on financing - apparently it all depends not on who does the financing but whether or not you agree with their political aims.

Posted by: tst | Apr 26, 2014 3:04:35 PM | 53

edit: "Neo-Nazis" not "Ne-Nazis"

Posted by: tst | Apr 26, 2014 3:05:51 PM | 54

http://rt.com/news/155104-soledar-ukraine-military-attack/ Unknown gunmen land from helicopters, attack checkpoint in Donetsk region - militia

"Unknown assailants landed in helicopters and attacked a checkpoint in Soledar city in eastern Ukraine’s Donetsk region, a militia source told RIA Novosti adding that there is a fight going on.

There is no information on the number of casualties.

Soledar is located about 30 kilometers south east of Slavyansk.

The people’s governor of Donbass region Denis Pushilin confirmed to RT that there is fighting in Soledar.

As the unknown men attacked the checkpoint, the militia was forced to retreat, the source told RIA.

The second checkpoint is preparing for attack he said, adding that there are about 50 activists, many without weapons.

“We cannot send reinforcements from Slavyansk as all [forces] are defending the city," the source stressed.

The militia has blocked the entrances to warehouses storing arms to prevent the National guard forces from confiscationg the weapons, a militia source told RIA.

He added that the warehouses were left over from Soviet times and have in storage only outdated weaponry, such as Mauser, Colts, Degtyarev machine guns, submachine PCA guns but in great amounts.

“Armed men attacked our warehouses storing weapons, we are repelling the attack, there is fighting,” Interfax cites a militia in the people’s self-defense HQ as saying."

Posted by: scalawag | Apr 26, 2014 3:10:39 PM | 55

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_04_26/RIA-Novosti-publishes-satellite-photos-showing-military-buildup-at-Slavyansk-7068/

RIA Novosti publishes satellite photos showing military buildup at Slavyansk

"A RIA Novosti obtained the satellite photos which clearly show heavy buildup of military weapons and equipment on the Ukrainian border with Russia, as well as in Ukraine's Slavyansk suburbs, in the North of the Donetsk region, where clashes between pro-federalization protesters and Ukrainian interim government continue."

Posted by: scalawag | Apr 26, 2014 3:13:27 PM | 56

@29

And that is STILL bullshit.

Wall Street had NO role in the creation of the USSR.

Posted by: Massinissa | Apr 26, 2014 3:14:22 PM | 57

@48

Just because Wall Street gave it a little bit of funding doesn't mean it was a 'creation' of wall street.

Was the United States a 'creation' of France because France lent the founding fathers money and gave them support during the American Revolution when 'no one else would'?

Posted by: Massinissa | Apr 26, 2014 3:16:24 PM | 58

@46

... You do realize he specifically said that Thompson was NOT a socialist right? Reading comprehension fail.

Unless you have some wacko impression that Soros is a socialist, because that is NOT what Ruralito was saying.

Posted by: Massinissa | Apr 26, 2014 3:19:24 PM | 59

@Anonymous #51:

Why are EU so pathetic that they do whatever obama tells them to?

As far as I can tell, the current generation of European politicians have been very well trained to be shameless lackeys of USG.

The Europeans must rise up and demand that each of their presidents/prime ministers be replaced with an SVR officer. The European political class is so rotten at this point that this is the only way I can see of restoring democracy to Europe.

Posted by: Demian | Apr 26, 2014 3:20:56 PM | 60

@29

And that is STILL bullshit.

Wall Street had NO role in the creation of the USSR.

Posted by: Massinissa | Apr 26, 2014 3:14:22 PM | 56

Well they certainly had a role in providing a great deal of finance for it, and from as far back as 1905 Jakob Schiff was financing agents operating in Russia and elsewhere to help spread the Bolshevik doctrine, for example amongst Russian soldiers captured by the Japanese.

You can deny that too, if you want, but it won't make it disappear

Posted by: tst | Apr 26, 2014 3:22:59 PM | 61

Demian

During Bush there were atleast some criticism but under obama, hell, EU leaders treat him like a God. This is sick. Why would EU want a conflict with Russia, their neighbour!?

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 26, 2014 3:23:41 PM | 62

@59

No offense, but wouldn't that just be a transfer of political control of Europe from one Great Power to another?

Though that might be worth a try. USA has f*cked Europe up so much last 3 decades maybe a new European Hegemon is in order, even if the concept of having a hegemon is less than ideal.

Posted by: Massinissa | Apr 26, 2014 3:24:12 PM | 63

The puppets in Canada were so anxious to prove their loyalty to "empire", they forgot to cover their ass ( a bit difficult, that, when your pants are about your ankles and you're bent over the boss' desk).

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140425/189368748/Canada-to-Pay-for-Ditched-Launch-Contract-with-Russia---Moscow.html

Canada to Pay for Ditched Launch Contract with Russia - Moscow

"Canada will have to pay – both in terms of money and reputation – for a decision to ditch the launch of its satellite by a Russian rocket, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said Friday.

Commenting on the Canadian media reports that the government’s hard line on sanctions against Russia has scuttled the launch of what was described to be a “key Canadian military satellite,” Rogozin wrote in his Twitter that Canada will “certainly” have to pay the forfeit.

In addition, the Canadian government exposed the true military purpose of its satellite, claimed to be a civilian one, he said.

“The Canadians screwed things up. They refused to launch the satellite and admitted that it was a military one, despite earlier assurances of its civilian purpose,” Rogozin said."

Posted by: scalawag | Apr 26, 2014 3:25:28 PM | 64

@46

... You do realize he specifically said that Thompson was NOT a socialist right? Reading comprehension fail.

Unless you have some wacko impression that Soros is a socialist, because that is NOT what Ruralito was saying.

Posted by: Massinissa | Apr 26, 2014 3:19:24 PM | 58

Yes I do realise that

I actually pointed out that it was a strawman because no one ever made that claim until he introduced it in order to argue against it- that is why I called it a strawman.

That is what a strawman is - something introduced into the conversation for him to argue against, something that was never advanced as an argument in the first place.

If you go back and read what he said, maybe a little more slowly this time, you will see that he introduced it as a strawman -

He said: "He [thompson] was no more a "socialist" than George Soros" - since no one ever made the claim that "Thompson was a socialist" in the first place, it is clearly a strawman introduced by your friend for him to argue against.

So, rather than actually addressing what was said he invented something and addressed that instead - that is why it is a strawman argument

Posted by: tst | Apr 26, 2014 3:30:53 PM | 65

lysander at 18 The other Arab nations will change their views of Moscow based on its success in Ukraine and Syria.

I think that is the best explanation for current US policy guiding our actions in Ukraine. What Obama and Kerry are doing is difficult to understand otherwise. At some level they must be starting to realize that our policies towards Libya, Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan have been unmitigated disasters. The rest of the world sees that. Somehow the US thinks if it can win one in Ukraine (or at least make it look like the Russians have lost) this will restore the luster of American invincibility. Without that the rest of the world jut might begin to drift away from America's demands.

At the beginning of this crisis, I did not think there was any coherent policy guiding Kerry and Obama in Ukraine. Policy was just some of the old stuff that was used during the Orange (and other color) revolution(s), basically we were on auto-control with low level officials making the decisions. The problem was was that we were not listening to Putin nor did we learn any lesson in Georgia. Once this blew up Obama and Kerry saw that they were about to experience another major diplomatic defeat. I doubt very much this is an outcome they wanted but they seem to be trapped right now in reacting to one circumstance and another really out of their control. This has been clear since Feb 21 and, unfortunately they seem to just be making things worse at each step. They are in too far to back down (i.e. accept a diplomatic solution that the Russians proposed before this all blew up).

It is hard to see how this plays out. Unfortunately it is difficult to see how the negotiations with Iran can survive this crisis. Obama and Kerry would just look too weak if they were to accept the outlines of the agreement that has so far been worked out. It is clear that Iran will not back down from their central demands.

Posted by: ToivoS | Apr 26, 2014 3:36:44 PM | 66

@64

Let me ask one more thing though:

Is the United States a creation of France?

And if it is... Who cares?

Posted by: Massinissa | Apr 26, 2014 3:37:12 PM | 67

@Massinissa #62:

Sorry, I wasn't detailed enough with my semiserious proposal.

It is based on my impression that Putin and Lavrov are really more concerned about the interests of the Ukrainian people than the members of the putsch regime are.

Counterintelligence officers are trained to be able to see situations from the points of view of their opponents. Thus, SVR officers probably understand Germany's own interests, for example, better than the German government does. To try to prevent this scheme from just transferring political control to a new hegemon, the SVR officers mandated to save their respective European countries should be asked to sign an oath that they will place the interests of their European country over those of Russia. A free press would be sufficient to ensure that they adhere to this oath.

An alternative scheme along similar lines would be—for countries like Germany, France, and Italy with their own reasonably independent (of CIA) foreign intelligence services—to take their new Kanzler/president/P.M. from their own intelligence service. Of course, that wouldn't work for countries like the UK and Poland, whose intelligence services as staffed with lackies who are at least as bad at whoring for the US as their political leaders are.

These musings were inspired by the following piece, a naked link to which was posted at MoA before:

Putin: The Last Man Standing

Posted by: Demian | Apr 26, 2014 3:46:45 PM | 68

so, according to you, (since who does the financing clearly doesn't matter to you,) US financing of Neo-Nazis in Ukraine and Islamo-nutters in Syria means absolutely nothing at all and anyone that highlights such financing is obviously nothing but a conspiracy nutcase.

Thanks for letting me know how you feel about people that point out US financing of Neo-Nazis in Ukraine and Islamo-nutters in Syria

Posted by: tst | Apr 26, 2014 3:50:33 PM | 69

Jacob Schiff would have been happy to finance anybody who promised to light a fire under the hated Tsar. Lesson one in 20th century Jewish history is that Jews worldwide hated the Tzar. They are great haters, as you probably know. And like now, the wealthy and somewhat guilty Jews in the comfort of the west, especially, tried more or less clumsily to salve their Jewish consciences by sending money to Jewish entities of every sort in the east. When they do this, they regard it as 'philanthropy', not investment. I don't suppose he took the 'communist' aspect very seriously. But believe what you want. Just demonstrate its relevance to the thread, if you would, or shut up about it, because I don't see any relevance at all, yet. I don't think it's good enough to just draw a vague analogy with nothing in particular, then sit back, so to speak, smirking suggestively. You need to either make a serious point about the Ukrainian situation, or shut up.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Apr 26, 2014 3:54:45 PM | 70

@somebody #9: in an abstract sense, you are correct, but sending observers is not really comparable to sending armed undercover forces.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Apr 26, 2014 3:59:32 PM | 71

New attacks on the eastern parts
http://rt.com/news/155104-soledar-ukraine-military-attack/

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 26, 2014 4:02:15 PM | 72

This article has more details of the satellite photos showing a nazi build-up in eastern Ukraine.

http://rt.com/news/155096-ukrainian-troops-satellite-images/ ‘Tanks, APCs, 15,000 troops’: Satellite images show Kiev forces build-up near Slavyansk

Posted by: scalawag | Apr 26, 2014 4:18:31 PM | 73

So now Russian Orthodox aren't Christians?

“Our task is to assist in organizing a regional referendum which would split the [Donetsk] region away from Ukraine,” said Rusanov, garbed in a camouflage uniform and a tall and black woolen Cossack hat, with a Kalashnikov in his arms, He stood outside an Orthodox temple where a service was held for a comrade killed in a clash with the government troops on Wednesday.

Un fucking believable.

And it's kind of unavoidable to turn to Western reports of what's going on, since the hunta is kicking Russian journalists out of the Ukraine and not letting them in.

Posted by: Demian | Apr 26, 2014 4:20:55 PM | 74

72

How sorry we would be if a drone just happend to drop a bomb there..

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 26, 2014 4:21:03 PM | 75

The french financing of US revolutionaries only occured AFTER the revolution had started

Whereas Wall St financing of bolshevism began at least a decade before the revolution, just as US financing of Neo-Nazis in Ukraine began years before the coup.

Its fair to ask if bolshevism would ever have developed enough to gain a foothold had they not been financed by Wall St for at least 10 years before the revolution.

The US revolutonaries on the other hand developed without financing from the french.

don't suppose he took the 'communist' aspect very seriously.

Well no one but ruralito said anything like that so perhaps you should argue that particular strawman with him?

But believe what you want.

Gee thanks, I will. Mighty big of ya to allow others to have their own thoughts and arrive at their own conclusions.

Posted by: tst | Apr 26, 2014 4:21:43 PM | 76

@tst #75:

Please stop flooding this thread with totally off-topic posts.

@ALL:

Don't feed the troll.

Posted by: Demian | Apr 26, 2014 4:24:41 PM | 77

@guest77:

"... the Russian TV station ARD ..."

Did Michael Hudson actually say that? If so, he made a mistake. ARD is actually a GERMAN public network. The acronym stands for 'Arbeitsgemeinschaft der öffentlich-rechtlichen Rundfunkanstalten der Bundesrepublik Deutschland'. But he's right about the rest. A few weeks ago, they did air an excellent investigative journalism piece on the mysterious shootings in the days leading up to Yanukovich's overthrow. And they did come to the conclusion that the most likely suspects were Pravij Sektor extremists. For those of you who know German, here's the link to the show: http://www.wdr.de/tv/monitor/sendungen/2014/0410/maidan.php5

Posted by: James Patrick | Apr 26, 2014 4:27:03 PM | 78

Posted by: ralphieboy | Apr 26, 2014 3:59:32 PM | 70

It all depends on if you consider the Kyiv government legitimate - or not.

As is the "international community" is driving Ukraine into a failed state, just as they did with the exclusive (non Eurasian union) EU association agreement. Tymoshenko now calls for NATO membership.

It is not a bug, it is a feature.

Of course it is Russia's fault, everything would be nice and peaceful if she accepted the US designed takeover of the Kyiv government. And accepted Ukraine as an EU/NATO country.

Or, of course it is the fault of US/EU everything would be nice and peaceful if they accepted Ukraine as a neutral/Russia aligned country within the Eurasian Union.

Sounds like both need counselling. Who is going to do that, China?


Posted by: somebody | Apr 26, 2014 4:28:52 PM | 79

http://lifenews.ru/news/132121 15 человек атаковали блокпост в районе украинского города Соледар

15 people attacked a checkpoint near the Ukrainian city Soledar

"One of self-defense detachment activists kidnapped and taken by helicopter to a second escaped.

Armed men attacked a checkpoint in the area of ​​Ukrainian militia Soledar city, located 50 kilometers south-east from the Slavic. About 15 people from the helicopters landed and attacked the activists self Donbass, overlapping approaches to the salt mines, where the armory.

Militias want to avoid that the weapons transferred to natsgvardii representatives of Ukraine, as in warehouses in large quantities stored Discontinued or obsolete weapons, such as Mauser, revolvers, machine guns Degtyarev submachine guns Shpagin.

Attackers have also tried to kidnap two people. When they were taken to the helicopter, one of them managed to escape.

Samoobrontsy defending the first checkpoint on the way to stores, retreated. Preparing to repel the second checkpoint, which defended about 50 people. Basically, it is unarmed people. The leaders of the People's Militia Donbass will not be able to send them reinforcements from Slavic, as all the forces left to defend the city, around which concentrate Ukrainian military." - using a translator.

Posted by: scalawag | Apr 26, 2014 4:37:16 PM | 80

Has this been verified?!

Ukraine detains Russian "Agents"

Posted by: Tea | Apr 26, 2014 4:38:15 PM | 81

@80 tea - 'kiev says' is all you need to know..

Posted by: james | Apr 26, 2014 4:43:43 PM | 82

@81

That's what I suspected James...

Posted by: Tea | Apr 26, 2014 4:46:38 PM | 83

Interesting Poll Analysis


"The interpretation a US Government-funded polling operation draws from this is quite different from the conclusions the Ukrainians themselves are drawing. That’s because there are questions the US poll didn’t ask, and Ukrainian pollsters did. Publication of the US Government polling also reveals there were Ukrainian answers in March which Washington has omitted to report in April."

Posted by: Tea | Apr 26, 2014 4:49:46 PM | 84

seems like the good Sheikh Imran Hosein got you folks all chafed. hey, maybe the real muslims are the new communists. whaddaya say? one thing we know for sure is that the nuland ilk migrated from hell, which froze over, and that they'll be with us for a while yet to come.

Posted by: john | Apr 26, 2014 4:49:48 PM | 85

tsk, ok, got it now. Boyce was not a socialist, he was a wall st financier. But neither was Lenin et al because they took money from wall st financiers.

They should have applied for a NED grant.

Sutton, Spengler, Ayn Rand etc are preaching to the knuckle-draggers and the mouth-breathers: Beware Communism whatever you do! They make deals with wicked Wall St bankers. But we're better than that with our little shoe stores and hobby shops and a bucket of deep fried chicken every sunday.

Posted by: ruralito | Apr 26, 2014 4:51:46 PM | 86

@scalawag #79:

Armed men attacked a checkpoint in the area of ​​Ukrainian militia Soledar city, located 50 kilometers south-east from the Slavic.

What is the point of having a checkpoint if you don't defend it by firing upon people who attack it? Is the anti-putsch resistance practicing Gandian nonviolent resistance? […]

Either you defend checkpoints with force, or you don't set them up. That holds especially when the enemy has said that he has launched a military assault against you.

Posted by: Demian | Apr 26, 2014 4:55:08 PM | 87


Oh Canada

"Commenting on the Canadian media reports that the government’s hard line on sanctions against Russia has scuttled the launch of what was described to be a “key Canadian military satellite,” Rogozin wrote in his Twitter that Canada will “certainly” have to pay the forfeit.

In addition, the Canadian government exposed the true military purpose of its satellite, claimed to be a civilian one, he said.
“The Canadians screwed things up. They refused to launch the satellite and admitted that it was a military one, despite earlier assurances of its civilian purpose,” Rogozin said.

The M3MSat was to be launched from the Baikonur space center in Kazakhstan on June 19. The spacecraft is intended for sea surveillance and was to operate jointly with the RADARSAT-2 orbiter."

Posted by: Tea | Apr 26, 2014 4:58:10 PM | 88

Translation of first "GRU-Strelov" interview - Donetzk military commander

KP : On Friday, you detained some military observers ...

Strelkov : I showed you their documents. According to a member of the Ukrainian forces, this mission is travelling along the border to inspect the locations specifically of Russian troops. I frankly can't imagine what they were doing here. Maybe they were trying to use diplomatic cover to conduct reconnaissance for the Ukrainians on the positions of the People's Militia, hoping that as foreigners they would not be detained. Although it's more likely it's one of those brilliant strategic ideas concocted by the Ukrainian command, which doesn't know where the People's Militia posts are located. When the bus carrying the observers, accompanied by the traffic police, arrived at the checkpoint in Kramatorsk, members of the Ukrainian military started hiding their military documents in a panic . This suggests that they absolutely did not expect to encounter any armed militia here.

Posted by: somebody | Apr 26, 2014 4:58:55 PM | 89

@ Lysander,

I think you have made some good points.

Posted by: Tea | Apr 26, 2014 5:01:17 PM | 90

@73 The link demonstrated exactly what the Western official narrative has been saying for centuries: "Them damn Greek schismatics ain't no Christians, might as well shoot 'dem basterds"

It's funny really, after all this talk about secularism it really comes to this.

Posted by: Grim Deadman | Apr 26, 2014 5:06:31 PM | 91

@Grim Deadman #90:

And this from a country where it's common to speak of the Mormon "church".

Posted by: Demian | Apr 26, 2014 5:14:21 PM | 92

Posted by: Demian | Apr 26, 2014 4:20:55 PM | 73

"He stood outside an Orthodox temple"

Neither Christians nor Muslims describe their buildings of worship as temples. People of a related religion often do, though:

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080905175456AAUzuxZ When do Jewish people go to temple?

The author of that piece may have been thinking in terms of his own cultural perspective on what name to use.

Posted by: scalawag | Apr 26, 2014 5:16:38 PM | 93

‘NATO spies’? Slavyansk self-defense forces keep foreign military inspectors detained

The protesters said they detained eight officers of NATO member states – four from Germany, and one each from Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Denmark and Poland. The group was accompanied by four Ukrainian officers, thought to be members of the country’s general staff.

Ukrainian nationalists are such clowns.

Posted by: Demian | Apr 26, 2014 5:25:13 PM | 94

Demian

These people are as stupid as the syrian rebels.

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 26, 2014 5:29:44 PM | 95

News says that new attacks in the east is ongoing, I wonder how many blackwater that is used by kiev for these operations.

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 26, 2014 5:46:57 PM | 96

I am very outraged! First the pushing of Maidan uprising via Konrad Adenauer-Stiftung
and that moron Klitschko and now this Nato-bilateral wishy-washy intelligence-mission.
Not an intelligent mission. Merkel and her masters are having a tough time, maybe she
will finally have to resign over her nasty deeds! She trumpeted for war already on
Iraq back in 2003, but then she was only leader of the opposition - lucky.

Posted by: slirs | Apr 26, 2014 5:59:39 PM | 97

Is there any criticism in Germany against nato/US/kiev? I am asking since Germany is a key player in europe.

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 26, 2014 6:05:43 PM | 98

@95

Someone has to be helping. The Ukranian military doesn't sound like its in shape to do much.

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/23/sold-out-ukraines-leadership-swapped-best-military/?page=all

Posted by: Tea | Apr 26, 2014 6:08:49 PM | 99

Living in Retardica one never ceases to be amazed at the sheer asininity of the horseshit one encounters on a daily basis.

So, S&P - yup, the same credit rating agency that gave AAAAAAAA+++++++ to every nonsense piece of shit financial instrument - e.g., CDO, MBS, etc etc - banking criminals could dream up right up until the time it all blew up in their faces and the common person was fucked on the order of TRILLIONS of dollars in losses (not to mention the $16-24 trillion that the Fed printed for said criminals) - yeah that same organization downgraded Russia's debt to near junk status the other day and I'm sure TPTB didn't even blink an eye worrying whether the average shithead in the US might say something like:

Hey, like because S&P et al are directly responsible in part for me being unemployed, there being no money for schools, health care, etc etc why should I fucking care what a bunch of Wall Street whores have to say about ANYTHING especially as they are proven fucking criminal liars who've fucked me, my kids and the rest of our society for the foreseeable future?

Nope, anything that hurts evil evil Vlad is AOK in the Merkans' books!!!Now quit beating up on those gays, Putin, you faggot!

Posted by: JSorrentine | Apr 26, 2014 6:17:49 PM | 100

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