Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 15, 2014

Ukraine: The Pissing Contest Continues

Finally a major U.S. paper is picking up on the problem of supporting a "revolution" that is driven by fascists: Ukraine's threat from within - Neofascists are as much a menace to Ukraine as Putin's actions in Crimea.

I for one do not consider "Putin's actions" in Crimea, i.e. the Russian Federation counter move to the "western" supported coup in Kiev, a "menace". But if claiming such makes it possible to talk about the biggest problem Ukraine will have for a while so be it.

Today Russia vetoed an UN resolution against the Crimea referendum. The U.S. ambassador called Russia "isolated". Well, how many times was the U.S. the only one voting no on a resolution against Israel? How "isolating" was that?

The U.S. has threatened further "consequences" should the referendum continue (which it will). But if the U.S. wants to step up the escalation ladder to keep its puppet coup government in Kiev in power Russia can do similar for its own purpose:

Russia has received numerous requests from Ukrainian civilians to protect them from radicals, including those from the Right Sector group, and has promised consider them, a Russian Foreign Ministry statement says.

Translation: "Dear Obama, do you really want us to move our troops in?"

Posted by b on March 15, 2014 at 02:04 PM | Permalink

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Question for MOA readers: Georgia's invasion of South Ossetia took place just months before the financial system collapsed in 2007. Is that the connection we are missing here? After all, Kerry is threatening sanctions as early as Monday.
But when has the US ever threatened sanctions that fast??

Never. It always takes time.

Unless Obama doesn't think he has time because the financial system is teetering.
Am I being too conspiratorial??

This is from the WSWS http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/03/15/pers-m15.html
On Thursday, the Ukrainian parliament voted to establish a 60,000-strong National Guard recruited from “activists” in the anti-Russian protests and from military academies.

The force will be overseen by the new security chief, Andriy Parubiy, a founder in the early 1990s of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine. His deputy, Dmytro Yarosh, is the leader of the paramilitary Right Sector. It is the Ukrainian equivalent of Hitler’s storm troopers.

In addition to aiding the West in its provocations against Moscow, the main responsibility of these elements will be to carry through a social onslaught against the Ukrainian working class at the behest of international capital.

Posted by: Raskolnikov | Mar 15, 2014 2:13:38 PM | 1

thanks b. it is all about the propaganda and optics and nothing to do with the substance of what is going on.. for that one will have to turn off these talking heads whether they be the heads of state, or people who either don't know, or refuse to examine all the information available to them.

Posted by: james | Mar 15, 2014 2:14:17 PM | 2

#1 Wait, so what are you suggesting? That the US thinks the financial system will collapse anyway so they are going to do sanctions on Russia and, when the system collapses, blame it on Russia? That doesn't sound very likely to me. I mean, I don't think the establishment even saw the 2007 collapse coming: How could they know for sure there would be a collapse this year, and be so sure of it that they would be willing to make it come faster?

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 15, 2014 2:21:00 PM | 3

@3 massinissa - for the record not only to i think 'the establishment' saw the 2007/8 collapse coming - they orchestrated it! read 'creature from Jekyll island' for some insight into how the fiat banking system works..

Posted by: james | Mar 15, 2014 2:27:17 PM | 4

I don't want to get too far off topic, but I just wonder if there's something we don't know about yet, that's forcing the Obama team to pull the trigger so fast on sanctions. That's all.

Posted by: Raskolnikov | Mar 15, 2014 2:30:51 PM | 5

Raskolnikov

Simply because they want to hurt Russia as much as possible, west want to overthrow Russia.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 15, 2014 2:34:24 PM | 6

Raskolnikov # 5 In addition to the fact that our very own Chamber of Commerce is against sanctions (!), could this be part of the reason? http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/3-billion-ukraine-aid-would-go-russia-n52056 The only thing the US does well is destroy -- and there's a lot of money to be made in extracting and transporting gas and oil that requires a bit less chaos than we tend to create.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 15, 2014 2:34:41 PM | 7

Isnt Obama just talking about sanctions because he pretty much has to threaten sanctions before he can do anything more serious like, I don't know, put boots on the ground?

Obots puppeteers are damn crazy, I wouldn't put it past them for them to be spoiling for a new Crimean war.

Hopefully Crimean War 2 will be as limited as the first.

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 15, 2014 2:37:42 PM | 8

Meanwhile John McCain said, on the Ukraine crisis “That would not just spell the end of Mr. Putin’s imperial dreams; it would strip away the lies that sustain his rule over Russia itself,” he added". Russia's imperial dream, the man is stark raving bonkers. What with Kerry's "It is really a stunning, willful choice by President Putin to invade another country...You just don’t in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pretext". This pair of clowns should be locked away in a lunatic asylum.

Posted by: harrylaw | Mar 15, 2014 2:41:28 PM | 9

#1 you my have something there during the Great Depression the Nazi party did rise to power There are also were a lot of rich/elites in Amerika that were in love with them. If they do something like they did 07 it hurt us here in Amerika and Europe more than Russia or China they are very different nations today.

Posted by: jo6pac | Mar 15, 2014 2:45:05 PM | 10

Pathetic china abstain from voting, heck even the communists side with US and Nato these days.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 15, 2014 2:48:41 PM | 11

Well, how many times was the U.S. the only one voting no on a resolution against Israel? How "isolating" was that?

Obviously you're confusing the word "isolating" with "exceptional".

See, when the war criminal US or the apartheid genocidal state of Israel does something that the entire world disagrees with, why, that only proves how exceptionally AWESOME, they in fact are.

The fewer people who support said "isolating" action, why, the better - the deranged thinking goes - and more JUSTIFIED it is for the US or Israel b/c it obviously shows once again how the whole world obviously hates Israel and America for no effing reasons whatsoever. Wait, freedom, that's one reason.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Mar 15, 2014 2:49:11 PM | 12

Raskolnikov @5,

Yeah, they're called Samantha Power, Susan Rice, Ben Rhodes, Valerie Jarrett. None of them are regional experts, and Obama's judgment is as bad in choosing them as his inner circle as he was in hiring the architect of the Great Recession, Jack Lew, who recently crowed:

“Thanks to the tenacity of the American people and the determination of the private sector we are moving in the right direction,” Treasury Secretary Jacob J. Lew said in the report. “The United States has recovered faster than any other advanced economy, and our deficit today is less than half of what it was when President Obama first took office.”

His handiwork now:
http://tinyurl.com/nmgvgpn
http://tinyurl.com/lpsnvxs

BTW, the government deficit is the private sector's savings.

Posted by: MRW | Mar 15, 2014 2:49:56 PM | 13

@3

I don't think the establishment even saw the 2007 collapse coming

Uh, I think you're wrong on that. Many predicted that credit default swaps/mortgage derivatives were like the biggest ponzi scheme ever on the brink of collapse.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/credit-default-swaps-evolving-financial-meltdown-and-derivative-disaster-du-jour/8634

Actually, there were a slew of economists and others who predicted the financial meltdown.

http://investorhome.com/predicted.htm

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 15, 2014 2:56:22 PM | 14

I don't think the establishment even saw the 2007 collapse coming

jeez - my local Postman was predicting it from mid-2005 onward - to posit that "the establishment" couldn't see it coming is frankly ridiculous when even my local Postman, not the sharpest knife in the block, talked about little else for over year prior to the collapse,

Posted by: brb | Mar 15, 2014 3:01:57 PM | 15

I'll have to find the story but from what I read, any sanctions against Russia would only accelerate a BRICs move away from the dollar, and beyond the gas leverage Russia has, divesting itself from some other dollar-holdings (treauries or bonds or both?) and other financial maneuvers, can't quite remember the specifics... Point being, the sanctions would inflict more damage on the dollar and EU and other western interests than vice versa, and could do some real damage. Paul Craig Roberts I believe. I'll be back with a link.

As for recent accelerated pace of regime change operations in general, I do have some conspiratorial speculations, but that's all it would be, speculation. TPTB are always engineering something or other for nefarious purposes, to the detriment of humanity. Perhaps it's neocons lashing out over failed Syria operations, they don't deal with failure very well. Flexing their collective muscles. And there I go speculating.

Posted by: Colinjames | Mar 15, 2014 3:23:53 PM | 16

The truly sick part which has been mentioned here and elsewhere is that since the US has basically bought enough whores to make the UN - and every other global organization (World Bank, IMF, etc) - it's own rubber stamp, Russia has to continue to play along with this charade indefinitely - or at least until the US whore fund runs dry - or be recorded in history as the ones who violated/stepped outside of international law.

I mean, realistically what the eff is the point for any Russian diplomat, especially after Syria, to even bother traveling to the UN or anywhere else for negotiations with the US and its whores? It's just gonna be more fantasy-land jack-jobbing.

But they have to go or else they'll be the ones who will forever be known as the ones who withdrew from the UN etc etc and responsible for breaking the peace blah blah blah

I'm sure that's why the US war criminals still so desperately attempt to cling these tattered vestiges of "peaceful channels". It's a form of torture for rational people - the Russians, the Iranians, etc - to have to go and waste their effing time, day in, day out, day in, day out, listening to the utter shit that just continues to come out of their whore mouths. Seriously, Power, Kerry, et al, have either all lost their freaking minds or are deliberately trying to drive the last remaining sane world leaders - and non-world leaders - mad with their incessant nonsense.

I joked before but it's really like having a Prisoner's Dilemma situation where one of the persons will not recognize that he is in jail. What is the other prisoner to do? It's a variation on the Israeli "mad dog" strategy with the same consequence: after "pretending" to be insane for so long, how can other people reasonably determine if you're "pretending" anymore?

Posted by: JSorrentine | Mar 15, 2014 3:25:35 PM | 17

@ 3 Massinissa & #4 James--

Steve of Virginia at Economic Undertow has been posting recently about the "Triangle of Doom"--he alludes to it in his most recent posts but for a fuller description go back a few months. The basic idea of the "Triangle of Doom" is that for the last decade the cost floor of oil--the price that producers must get for their oil to be able to produce it--has been steadily rising. At the same time the price ceiling of oil--the maximum price consumers can afford to pay without going bankrupt or otherwise dropping out of the market--has been falling. When these two lines cross consumers will no longer be able to buy oil at the minimum price that producers will be able to produce it. At that time the "free market" in oil--worldwide--ends. Oil, if it is produced and distributed at all, will not be sold in markets. The obvious possibility is some form of militarized command economy.

When does the cost floor meet the price ceiling? In truth, nobody knows, but if recent trends continue it will happen toward the end of 2015 or at best beginning of 2016. That is only two years out, and that is the best case scenerio.

All major world governments know this. Obviously, they don't want to talk about it.

Also, there are details that matter. There is still old cheap (light sweet crude) oil that can be produced at a price below the cost floor. But there is not much of it, and it is rapidly declining. To get your hands on that, at a cheap price, you would have to knock competitors out of the market altogether. This the US is doing. For the last decade American wars have prominently featured the destruction of industialized or industrializing countries that from the US point of view were expendable. Knocking them out of the bidding for oil was part of the point of the war.

War is not the only way to to this. To knock out oil consumption in Greece you call in repayment of internationally-held loans, impose austerity measures (which in the name of loan repayment always eliminates the ability of the economy to repay) to collapse the economy and reduce oil consumption. Again, Greece was considered expendable.

Ukraine is also.

Back to the main point, Obama is under a lot of pressure. The US is the largest consumer of oil with very little of its own supply (happy-talk to the contrary, the US oil-fracking bubble is already starting to deflate). The US has less than two years to figure out how to knock most of the world out of the bidding for oil, and they frankly have no idea how to to it. They are desperate and grasping at anything. That's why Obama has let the neo-cons--with their long, proven track record for failure--back into the State Department. They are confident in their crazy ideas, while no one else has any ideas at all.

Meanwhile, the American public is clueless--they have just been told (and believe) that the US is about to become the world's foremost oil supplier.

A global war is in the offing. The time-frame is the next two years. It doesn't have to be nuclear. It doesn't even have to happen. But the US is now staring into the abyss and totally desperate. This is what people need to understand and prepare for.

Putin, as his actions show, is clearly aware of all of this.

--Gaianne

Posted by: Gaianne | Mar 15, 2014 3:35:50 PM | 18

Thus isn't the one I was thinking of but it covers some of the economics I was talking about. I may be conflating two articles. But I'm out of time so here ya go.

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/03/13/failure-german-leadership-merkel-whores-washington/

Posted by: Colinjames | Mar 15, 2014 3:35:59 PM | 19

Its some weeks old but for those who missed should check Stephen Cohen's great analysis of the crisis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z6_5Vd8R5M

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 15, 2014 3:51:23 PM | 20

@ 19 Thanks for the Paul Craig Roberts link, especially this "Washington and its EU puppets even have the audacity to declare falsely, after overthrowing an elected government in Ukraine and installing an unelected one, that Crimean self-determination violates the Ukrainian constitution, which no longer exists because Washington destroyed it". The UK Foreign Secretary said [lied] to the House of Commons on the 4th March "Former President Yanukovych left his post and then left the country, and the decisions on replacing him with an acting President were made by the Rada, the Ukrainian Parliament, by the very large majorities required under the constitution, including with the support of members of former President Yanukovych's party, the Party of Regions, so it is wrong to question the legitimacy of the new authorities." What a bald faced lie how can they get away with it?

Posted by: harrylaw | Mar 15, 2014 4:13:09 PM | 21

On EU sanctions,

Amidst its shameful propaganda and outright lies, Le Monde has a revealing report on the EU sanctions. It's pretty weak tea. In fact, it isn't even the piss from weak tea. They are going to sanction some as yet unnamed individuals, including some pro-Russian Ukrainians (whomever they may be), but when Sweden proposed an arms embargo on sales to Russia, France demurred. They are just going to wait and end up doing nothing, because neither the French nor the Germans want to endanger their economic relations with Russia.

The propaganda in Le Monde is overwhelming. My friends here on the Left are almost as brain-dead on this subject as the Americans.

Posted by: Knut | Mar 15, 2014 4:14:22 PM | 22

That's the only thing Ive seen in western Corporate media that resembles anything like the true picture .Even so, the captions framing and surrounding the whole linked op-ed are the usual "IS PUTIN CRAZY" "HOW TO STOP RUSSIA FROM BEING A WORLD POWER"...and so on and on, ad nauseum. Forget Svoboda, Given the past 10 year record of our own oligarchs and political-grifter class that serve them, along with STUNNINGLY, shortsighted, jingoistic and outright dishonest media "coverage, Im getting to be quite afraid our own regime. The NYT and WaPo's coverage of this US manufactured crisis is worthy of anything ever published in "PRAVDA", which was the wests favorite laughingstock during the cold war, and the kind of evidence that supposedly pointed to the superiority of capitalist civilization.

Posted by: Solerso | Mar 15, 2014 4:16:12 PM | 23

@Gaianne, I think you mean "Trapezoid of Doom" The funny thing is, "triangle of doom" gets more hits than the actual title that Steve of Virg. uses.

Anyhoo, too much of this sort of thing: "There may also be gas reserves offshore but Ukraine needs a real government and Russia needs to grow up and act like [an] adult.", in the face of precisely that; casts doubts on SoV's insight.

Posted by: ruralito | Mar 15, 2014 4:51:24 PM | 24

"Why wouldn't we ease those fears by forcefully denouncing the ethno-nationalists and embracing minority rights as vital to the stable Ukrainian democracy that we seek to promote?"

The author gives far too much credit to the goodwill of the United States. The elevation of ultra-nationalists is not an accident awaiting reversal, it is the major part of the plan.

The next move isn't to denounce these cretins, but to get them out of their fatigues and into business suits. To clean up their language. And I figure they hope to, at best, to take care of their anti-semitism by getting them to pal around with some Israeli special forces types, and, if worse comes to worse, shipping the Jews of the Ukraine off to Israel.

What must not change, in the eye of the Nuland's and the McCain's of the world, are these criminals contrived anti-Russian feelings. They'll just be prodded to be a little more circumspect about how they carry out the worst of their policies and be asked to do their most violent acts masked and during the night. But the shoddy historicizing, the ginning up of ethnic hatred, the wailing and moaning over the "Maidan Martyrs" - shot by their own side - all of this will continue and will never be denounced. In fact, it is time for the western and Ukrainian media intellectuals to do what they are paid to do: start making the excuses, falsifying the history, and turn hatred into "exceptionalism" and the aggressors into the victims.

After all, is there really much difference between the violent ideology of these monsters and "Bomb-bomb-Iran" McCain's? Maybe in style, but certainly not in substance.

The hatred and violence of these fascists doesn't matter a bit to the Americans. The only thing that matters is that that hatred and violence can be made, on the surface, respectable and directed towards Russia. One only has to look at the success that the US has had in redirecting the hatred of a violent, fascist group like al Qaeda away from the United States and Israel, and towards Shia and secular Arab governments.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 15, 2014 6:06:34 PM | 25

Propaganda about anti-Putin demonstrations in Moscow w/ P*ssy Riot leading the charge. F*cking shameless and retarded and retarded.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Mar 15, 2014 6:08:57 PM | 26

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-attacks-television-satellites-990/

The situation of the press in the Ukraine is quite delicate at this point. Even the OSCE is beginning to worry. Add to this the fact that the Ukraine is attempting, no doubt with assistance, to jam Russian television satellites.

I realize that pointing out US hypocrisy is, at this point, akin to pointing out to people that the sun has risen in the east... but still.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 15, 2014 6:26:27 PM | 27

I remember many,many sane voices saying pre Iraq,"do not do this,as starting wars on pretexts,opens the door for others to do the same in the future".All ignored by our Zionist MSM,as any enemy(perceived, imagined or otherwise)of Eretz Israel is worthy of elimination.Not that Russia fits the bill,by the way.
And the worst about the financial disaster(which is ongoing)is that they gave the gamblers more of our dough to replace their bad bets.Criminality made large,and revealing who the real masters are.
And France,they went from sane French patriot Chirac to that wacko Zionist Sarkosy.Talk about a mixed up electorate.Who owns the western worlds media?There is our dilemma,the people have no power,other than populist groundswells which make the PTB respond,(Syria,Tea Party)but they are rare.Hopefully the attitude of the people towards this Russian stupidity will affect these morons to stop their idiotic provocations.
Hands up children,if you are for nuclear war.

Posted by: dahoit | Mar 15, 2014 6:31:24 PM | 28

@24 ruralito--

Yes, in his last post Steve changes it to Trapezoid of Doom and rants about Russia "growing up". But if you go back a few months it is Triangle and his remarks are more coherent, focusing on the geological constraints on the global economy.

--Gaianne

Posted by: Gaianne | Mar 15, 2014 6:33:14 PM | 29

Uhm, Pardon me but where are the news?

Weztern media spattering propaganda? Not news.
kerry, obama, mc cain't, (insert any zus asshole name) threatening? Not news.
Russia not caring batshit? Not news.

There is only 1 really interesting question: Will Russia let Crimea into Russia or will Russia succeed in convincing the Crimeans that creating their own state, fully supported by Russia, of course, is a better solution?

Either way, the weztern sanctions will work maily against the weztern criminals anyway. BRICS is big enough meanwhile and its members and close friends mustn't worry about threats by rotten weztern regimes.

Actually I think that implementing weztern sanctions may make BRICS consider to associate with Iran so as to in effect cancel out all weztern sanctions against Iran.

Russia and China have shown a clear determination to go the full way this time no matter what. Russia hasn't left room for the slightest doubt she is prepared to go to war. And China who alway *hated* to fumble in other countries internals this time went out of their way to support Russia.

The ones who should really be afraid and troubled by the sanctions are Germany and zusa.


Ceterum censeo israel americanamque vehementer delenda esse!

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 15, 2014 6:44:33 PM | 30

‘They are fascists!’ German Left leader blasts Merkel’s support of illegitimate Ukraine govt

Gregor Gysi, a parliamentary head of the largest lower-house opposition party in Germany – the Left Party – has spoken out on Thursday against German Chancellor’s unquestioning support of the coup-appointed Ukrainian government.

“They formed a new government..... Immediately recognized by president Obama by the EU and German government as well. Miss Merkel! The vice- prime minister, the defense minister, minister of agriculture, environment minister, the attorney general.. They are fascists!” he stated.

Gysi was furious that Germany is doing nothing to address the extreme right threat in Ukraine.

"With fascists in Ukraine we are doing nothing. Svoboda party has tight contacts with NPD and other Nazi parties in Europe.. The leader of this party, Oleg Tyagnibok, has recalled that literally.”

The Left’s leader went on to read a quote from Tyagnibok, where he publically urged people in Ukraine to “Grab the guns, fight the Russian pigs, the Germans, the Jews pigs and others.”

“And with these Svoboda people we are still in conversation! I find it as a scandal!” Gysi told his fellow politicians.

If the Russians aren't busy flooding every radical and separatist movement in the EU, the USA, and Latin America with cash, they're missing a big opportunity.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 15, 2014 7:02:17 PM | 31

I am copying over a comment by Alexander Mercouris via the Ukrainian Defense News Network on Facebook. I agree.

THE REAL UKRAINIAN CRISIS

There is one point I want to make because the western media predictably is failing to make it and there is a risk it is going unnoticed.

The real crisis is not in or about the Crimea. The Crimea is peaceful and stable and everyone knows this and knows that the Ukraine has irretrievably lost it. The Crimea is a distraction. The real crisis is not about the Crimea. The real crisis is about the Ukraine itself: about who governs it and how it's governed and whether it can be held together at all.

The western powers understand very well that without Russia's support the Ukraine cannot sustain itself economically and cannot hold itself together. The western powers however colluded in an anti Russian coup in Kiev on 22nd February 2014, which overthrew the democratically elected President of that country in flagrant violation of an agreement they themselves brokered on the previous day. They seem to have made the astonishing miscalculation that Russia would simply accept this fait accompli and would recognise the resulting government in Kiev even though it gained power unconstitutionally and in violation of an agreement that they themselves brokered. They have been utterly horrified and astonished by Russia's refusal to do so and by Russia's continuing insistence that the resulting government is illegitimate and that Russia has a right (actually a duty) to protect ethnic Russians in the Ukraine if the situation calls for it.

Everything we have been hearing over the last few weeks eg. the proposals to set up a "contact group" or "to get the Russians and the Ukrainians talking to each other" or to get the Rada to pass a law authorising a Crimean vote on self determination (see my previous post) are simply devices to try to get the Russians to recognise the new government in Kiev. On 6th March 2014 the Europeans tried to get Lavrov to speak to the regime's acting Foreign Minister and were horrified and astonished when he refused to do so.

All the other so called "diplomatic efforts" we have been hearing so much about have also been all about this same objective - to try to get the Russians to recognise the new government in Kiev. Merkel's speech to the Bundestag yesterday was an admission that all these attempts to get the Russians to recognise the new government in Kiev have so far failed.

The Russian position by contrast is that they want a complete reconstruction of the government in Kiev to bring the situation in the Ukraine back into line with the Ukraine's constitution and with the agreement the western powers themselves brokered on 21st February 2014.

Whether there will be any give or take in this situation I do not know but I would make two observations:

1. As has by now become usual in these cases the west's response when it gets no for an answer is to behave like a spoilt child, throw an almighty tantrum and unleash a cacophonous tide of "warnings" and "threats" unless it gets what it wants. If it still fails to get what it wants eventually its tantrum subsides and it storms off sulking into the next room but not before some damage to the furniture is done along the way. Anyone who has any experience of dealing with badly spoilt children is familiar with the pattern.

2. Not for the first time the western powers seem utterly oblivious of the effect on others of their own behaviour. On 21st February 2014 the western powers formally brokered an agreement to settle the Ukrainian political crisis. Though they were guarantors of the agreement they colluded in its overthrow on the following day. Despite this astonishing display of bad faith they seem genuinely bewildered that on the subject of the Ukraine the Russians no longer trust them and no longer consider them acceptable mediators. Though the cases are otherwise very different the utter disregard for a legally binding document followed by a bewildered inability to understand the consequences in terms of the subsequent collapse of trust is the same as we saw with the west's misuse of Security Council Resolutions during the Libyan crisis in 2011.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Mar 15, 2014 7:02:50 PM | 32

Gaianne, that scenario with price of production crossing price consumers can pay has a lot of validity. However, there are two recent developments that could lengthen the time before the lines cross. First the US rapprochement with Iran, ongoing as we speak, is intended to take pressure off oil price. In Matthew Simmons' excellent book, "Twilight in the Desert" he stated that Iran and Libya have more light sweet crude than anywhere else on the planet - much more than KSA with their depleted Ghawar field (salt water injected and pumping 80% water when he wrote the book about 2005). I'm certain that US entreaty to Iran is to get access to their oil, nothing else. After 3 decades of lying about Iran, crippling sanctions, and running out of time as you said, US has to act. Libya is the other development. That hasn't gone as well as US hoped in terms of getting at Libya's light sweet crude, but it smashed the African Dinar idea, dead - potentially a rival currency to US fiat $. Soon Libya will be incorporated into a neoliberal scheme to better enable pillaging it - and world market will eventually get Libya's oil at affordable price.

Nonetheless, Peak Oil is near (and real) and there is a race going on to secure what's left, primarily between US and China, but other lesser powers are scrambling too. (I think I ran across a blog a while back called "The Race for What's Left")

Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 15, 2014 7:36:10 PM | 33

guest77 #27 Well, you're preaching to the choir here, but how DO we counter the propaganda and help people understand what's really going on?

dahoit #28 The Tea Party are riled up but they really don't understand a thing other than maybe Obama's black. The whole thing was created by rightwing oligarchs as a way of channeling the rage they do feel at being left behind away from the real source and absolutely against any social program by which they themselves might benefit. It's too bad, bc they at least dimly sense there's something wrong, which is more than can be said of most "Liberals". But they're chickens rooting for Colonel Sanders, just as most of their non-slaveowning forebears ended up fighting and dying for the very system that kept them down.

Mr. Pragma #30 I confess I'm dreading the news a bit -- not the vote, not the Russian response, but you just know there are going to be some truly nasty false-flag incidents. I should be used to them by now, they're a feature not a bug, but God, it's just agony thinking about it, much less waiting for them to happen.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 15, 2014 7:36:30 PM | 34

@26
rioting pussies expose themselves, show support for neonazis who employ snipers to kill both sides and take over a state, and would love to rape some pussies!
what a bunch of pussies!

Posted by: brian | Mar 15, 2014 8:23:52 PM | 35

okie farmer | Mar 15, 2014 7:36:10 PM | 33

Yes, whether accidental or deliberate, Gaianne got his conclusion about light sweet crude ("there is not much of it") completely wrong. Perhaps he forgot that Dick Cheney was seconded to the Bush II Admin, from Big Oil, to push through the fake war on Terror in order keep light crude on ice to help Big Oil to push the oil price up to eye-watering levels and make tar sands and fracking artificially viable.
Xymphora used to call the GWOT the War for no oil. If he'd called it the war for "hardly any oil" or "just enough oil" he'd have been closer to the truth.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 15, 2014 8:29:18 PM | 36

@30

"Uhm, Pardon me but where are the news?"

I have my home page set to Google News, believe it or not! It is a fairly accurate regurgitation of whatever themes the western propaganda masters are pushing. The No. 1 story for the last few days has been the Malaysian Air mystery. Like Flight 370, Ukraine has pretty much disappeared from MSM radar. That confirms to me what has been obvious to most thinking folk ever since the neo-nazi clowns invaded the Kiev government offices.

Just as Syria has more or less dropped off the radar screens of the psychopaths (for the moment at least), I hope and pray that the tide may be retreating at last on this current chapter of neo-fascist horror that has infected my ex-homeland and from there the rest of the world, with an assist from a couple of middle eastern dictatorships.

It has been a no-brainer that Putin would take full advantage of the situation in Ukraine. Congratulations to him for not reacting with violence and to the Crimea. May their new found Democracy grow and prosper. May the rest of Ukraine learn from this and not allow themselves to be drawn into hatred and violence.

Finally, here is a little quote from the famous American medium Edgar Casey:

"... For changes are coming, this may be sure – an evolution, or revolution in the ideas of religious thought. The basis of it for the world will eventually come out of Russia; not communism, no! But rather that which is the basis of the same, as the Christ taught – His kind of communism! (1930) No. 452-6

In Russia there comes the hope of the world, not as that sometimes termed of the communistic, or Bolshevik, no; but freedom, freedom! That each man will live for his fellow man! The principle has been born. It will take years for it to be crystallised, but out of Russia comes again the hope of the world. (1944) No. 3976-29"

Posted by: TicoTiger | Mar 15, 2014 8:35:24 PM | 37

brian, #35 Saw them on Colbert and it was fascinating: they had a translator but it was obvious that at least one of them understood every word being spoken, and I think the other one did too. And can't you just imagine them pulling their stunts in any church or statehouse here? So the only real question is, who pays them and charts their course? They surely didn't come here to tour our prison system -- which, I kid you not, is what they claimed.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 15, 2014 8:37:39 PM | 38

http://en.svoboda.org.ua/

The underlying ideology of Svoboda - "blood and spirit".

Svoboda's ideology stems from "Two Revolutions", a book written by Yaroslav Stetsko, leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN). According to the generally accepted definition, a nation is a community bound by blood and spirit. Therefore, the crucial condition for joining Svoboda is that its members must belong to the Ukrainian nation. Atheists and former Communist party members were not eligible for membership.

Here is the Svoboda Party Platform as it regards Crimea. They want to have a nation-wide referendum to strip its autonomous status, but cry that it is illegal for the people themselves to hold a referendum.

VIII. Crimea and Sevastopol: Establishing a Constitutional Order and Ensuring Stable Development

1. Submit to nationwide referendum the change of status of the Crimea from autonomous to regional and abolish the special status of Sevastopol.

Property confiscation:

5. Confiscate property and capital goods acquired in Ukraine from offenders of the Citizenship Act to the state.

On adoption:

10. Ban the adoption of Ukrainian children by foreigners.

Immigration:

12. Establish stricter anti-immigration measures and improve the system of detention and deportation of illegal immigrants.

13. Strengthen state border protection and cut off channels of illegal migration.

14. Establish mandatory registration of foreign citizens who arrive on the territory of Ukraine, in the local bodies of Ministry of Internal Affairs. Establish, due to the threat of international terrorism and crime, a uniform biometric control system for everyone who enters Ukraine (database of fingerprints, eye retina, etc.).

VII. Foreign Policy and Defence: the European-Ukrainian Centrism and a Strong State


1. Determine the European Ukrainocentrism state strategic course according to which Ukraine aims to become not only the geographical, but also the geopolitical center of Europe.

9. Restore the nuclear status of Ukraine due to violations of the Budapest Memorandum by Russia (one of the guarantors of security of Ukraine): conflicts around Tuzla island and the Kerch Strait, direct threats, brutal political and economic pressure, regular attempts of officials to question the territorial integrity of Ukraine. Restore tactical missile and nuclear arsenal state. Appeal to the U. S. and the UK to promote and support the nuclear program in Ukraine.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 15, 2014 8:42:04 PM | 39

If oil isn't the most controlled/contrived commodity market on the planet, it is close to the top of the list of contrived markets - second, perhaps, to diamonds.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 15, 2014 8:45:13 PM | 40

guest77 #39 OMG This is a very handy URL to counter a whole lot of propaganda. Just wish we could force-feed it to those who need it most...

Posted by: Nora | Mar 15, 2014 9:10:38 PM | 41

@41 Yes. There is a lot there to be concerned about.

I found this article in WaPo, its a bit thin but it does raise interesting questions about this Pandora's Box that the USA is opening by supporting these coups and revolts, and encouraging them to be as violent as possible.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 15, 2014 9:37:21 PM | 42

TicoTiger (37)

It has been a no-brainer that Putin would take full advantage of the situation in Ukraine.

If only for the sake of reason and honesty: has it really and, more importantly, has Putin really?

What exactly are the advantages for Russia? To save around 100 mio$/year for the right to use the base? To gain ca. 2 mio new citizens for Russia?
Additionally taking Crimea isn't just advantages and sweet happiness; like every region Crimea has advantages and disadvantages, strong sides and weak sides.

Frankly, just thinking some minutes about it one will find out that "getting hold of Crimea" wasn't Putins goal. And - quelle surprise! - it was indeed not Putin or Russia to ignite the ukrainian dynamite. Putin merely reacted and looking reasonably at it, Putin so far has not acted to gain some advantage or territory but plain and simple to protect (as well as helped to allow them to protect themselves) the ethnic Russians.

If Putin wanted to take advantage, ukraine would now be under Russian control, poland would be close to destruction (they easily deserved it many times over), and rumania and other south-east european zato whores would be in a frenzy to get rid of zato (or face very major problems).

But again, that's not Putin and not Russia. It's zato in its unrealistic and delusional self-assessment to consider itself important and, oh so dangerous.
Putin's rationale is simple, straightforward and correct: Is there anything that could seriously threat Russia? No. Certainly not zato. Is there anything that, although without success tries to harm Russia? Yes, zato and in particular zusa criminals and terrorists. And that's what he, together with China and others is taking care of.
Having walked happily smiling into the zato trap is the problem of zato members - not of Russia.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 15, 2014 9:53:38 PM | 43

Töten für W.O.T.A.N. : http://vk.com/w8tan

Posted by: CC | Mar 15, 2014 9:59:19 PM | 44

Gaianne | Mar 15, 2014 3:35:50 PM | 18 Thanks for your speculations. Good speculations is all that those of us out of the food chain really have. But to add a little substance to your post there is this.

Shale oil in the US costs $85 per barrel to produce. Should the cost drop below this those wells will close. If oil production in Iraq, Iran and Libya returned to the world market unencumbered by sanctions, war, underdevelopment or whatever the world price would drop considerably below that amount, at least in the short term (meaning a few years or so) the price could reach $40 or even lower. This assumes of course Saudi Arabia and Russia and the Central Asian Republics continue to produce at current levels for a few more years. US oil companies have invested many billions of dollars developing oil shale. Now where do we think those companies would be if peace and free trade suddenly broke out over the oil world?

Posted by: ToivoS | Mar 15, 2014 10:06:43 PM | 45

Da Russophile has an interesting take on Sunday's referendum and how he expects everyone to respond. I won't ruin your reading pleasure by quoting it, just go see for yourself: http://darussophile.com/2014/03/after-the-referendum/

Posted by: Nora | Mar 15, 2014 10:10:11 PM | 46

Töten für W.O.T.A.N means die for woten, a germanic god. The slogan of the Right sector division that was attached by the Resistance/Anti-maidan yesterday in Kharkov. In the process 2 people were killed woten, and 32 members of the division were arrested.

In the so-called free West, this kind of people would be called skinheads, thugs.
Some pictures for a flavour: http://vk.com/photo-44739306_322297742
http://cs605919.vk.me/v605919369/2bcc/eCjnTkBCtdo.jpg

Posted by: CC | Mar 15, 2014 10:14:27 PM | 47

"Unless Obama doesn't think he has time because the financial system is teetering."

DJIA peaked on Dec. 31, 2014

Posted by: meofio | Mar 15, 2014 10:30:51 PM | 48

Here it says that Right Sector is Social National Assembly, see Social National -- totally different from National Social...
http://vk.com/sna_golovna

Posted by: CC | Mar 15, 2014 10:33:48 PM | 49

@43 Mr. Pragma

I admire Mr. Putin highly. He is a master politician and he and his advisors are strategic masters as well. Of course he is taking advantage of the opportunity that he has been presented with thanks to the bumbling, evil and pathetic neo-nazis and their western enablers. I'm sure that the actual developments that have taken place were anticipated some time ago, as were many other scenarios which could have taken place but did not become reality.

You wrote: "Frankly, just thinking some minutes about it one will find out that "getting hold of Crimea" wasn't Putins goal." I never wrote of Putin's goals and I'm not sure where you got your quote about "getting hold of Crimea" but please don't attribute it to me. Crimea joining Russia is a logical outcome of the c urgent situation. I assume if Putin welcomes Crimea it is because he sees that as the most favourable route to take.

What is certainly not clear at this time is what will happen to the eastern and southern regions of Ukraine. Perhaps once the Crimea joins Russia and the pensioners who make $150.00 have their pensions doubled, once the soldiers have their pensions increased from $240.00 to $600.00, once retirement ages are brought in line with Russian standards, (this thanks to http://pennyforyourthoughts2.blogspot.com), the Ukranians living in those areas may also ask for a referendum of their own. If the nazis from Kiev try to prohibit the lawful referendum (which has now been brilliantly and legally set in place in Crimea), I have no doubt that one option that Mr. Putin will consider will be whether he will "need" to move in troops to protect the local population and ensure a democratic vote.

Posted by: TicoTiger | Mar 15, 2014 11:03:38 PM | 50

@ 33 okie farmer and 36 Hoarsewhisperer--

Well, oil is not the topic of this thread, I mentioned it only for context, (why Obama is in a panic, and why, yes, the US economy really is taking another dive this year just as it did in 2007) and why even a failed-state outcome has benefits for US policy. Still, that in turn makes sense only if you realize that oil is a key, irreplaceable (nonfungible, as the economists say) resource for industrial civilization. (There are others, but they are not under as much pressure).

That said, notice that Libya is not back into full production, and the Iran rapprochement is a forward-and-back dance in which the US somehow never offers the two things the Iranians actually want (recognition of their full legitimacy as a government and an end to covert attacks on their country). So that light sweet crude is not going anywhere for the time being--barring secret off-market deals with China.

Hoarsewhisperer, I am afraid I have to disagree with you completely. The War on Terror was the cover story, not the real deal, which served many purposes; covering US responses to the looming decline in oil production is one of them. (Light sweet crude production peaked as predicted in 2005). I remember Dick Cheney, too. What do you think Dick Cheney told the secret Energy Commission? I think he told the members that the numbers were worse (especially the Saudi numbers) than people were reading in the media, and that the US had better secure some supply. Whatever he did say it put the fear of god into people who no longer had any problems signing onto his resource wars. Remember Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL)? An insider joke or a media messaging mistake?--certainly the latter! But maybe the former as well. How else did that ultimately embarrassing phrase come to be?

I assert that the US intended to acquire control of the Iraqi oil. Wrecking the country was mere back-up plan.

There are plain clues that what I am saying is true. Now I am at fault to use the phrase "not much of it" when referring to light sweet crude when the more precise point is that it is in terminal decline. Oil companies love money, and they love high prices--provided their customers can pay them! If not, they worry. They are worrying now. They know that the capital investment is climbing for each new barrel of oil they produce. That cuts profits, which is what matters to them, not prices per se. They also know something that leads them to start selling off refining capacity. What I think they know is that the capacity will soon no longer be needed. But if you think what they know is something else, please share it, as there may be multiple possibilities driving their actions.

Lastly, I should mention that the publicly-traded oil companies are buying back their stock. Why? It may be that they realize they don't need more investment--which won't bring returns, since new production is too costly per barrel--they need to own as much of the existing flow as they can because it will continue to make good money even as the flow itself declines.

--Gaianne

Posted by: Gaianne | Mar 15, 2014 11:13:16 PM | 51

Oh, and oops--like a dummy, Hoarsewhisper, I missed one of your points. Tar sands and fracking are not viable, and that is the whole problem with them. (Well, they do wreck the environment, but that is not a concern for industrial civilization). You might say, well, just raise the price and they become viable. True in the very short term, and fine for attracting sucker investors. But oil production always deals in longer time frames. The higher price circulates back through the economy, by raising the cost of almost every industrial process--including extraction costs!--and you are back where you started. The way to think about these extreme technologies is that the good, easy stuff is gone and we are now desperately scraping the bottom of the barrel for our oil fix.

The key number is cost of extraction against the price you can obtain, and ultimately this reflects the energy returned on energy invested (EROEI). EROEI, which is very hard to measure directly, turns out to be well reflected in long run extraction costs and oil prices. EROEI is relentlesly declining, and has been for a century. We are at the point where the effect is showing up in everyday life.

--Gaianne

Posted by: Gaianne | Mar 15, 2014 11:31:39 PM | 52

We in the US need to grow up, to take responsibility for our government, to stop acting like victims ... Articles of Impeachment.

Posted by: john francis lee | Mar 15, 2014 11:35:13 PM | 53

[...] What exactly are the advantages for Russia? To save around 100 mio$/year for the right to use the base? To gain ca. 2 mio new citizens for Russia? [...]

Mr Pragma @43 You may be right. Perhaps Putin, unable to see the advantages of having the Crimean peninsula back in its territory, or at least perceiving the disadvantages outweighing the benefits, does indeed not want the Crimean people to join up with Russia. But I highly doubt it.

To believe that, one would have to seriously underestimate Crimea's strategic and geographic importance and on top of that discount Putin's ability to spot an opportunity when it presents itself.

Far more likely is the day Putin became wind of US/EU plans to topple Yanukovych he got his team to develop a strategy with which Russia would ultimately benefit from this stupid mistake the West was about to make.

The referendum being held this Sunday with a near 100% certainty showing a large majority of Crimea's population wanting to join Russia, would not be taken place if Putin, as you claim, would prefer Crimea to stay part of Ukraine.

[...] it was indeed not Putin or Russia to ignite the ukrainian dynamite. [...]
True, however just because Russia didn't instigate the coup we shouldn't assume that Putin wouldn't analyse this grave error on Washington's behalf and make the most of it.

I believe Russian policy makers are quite capable of nutting out ideas on how to take advantage of unexpected situations. Mind you, as I keep arguing, I don't think Putin was surprised by the Maidan revolt, Russian intelligence was fully aware of the facts, and Putin's actions should be seen in that light.

[...] Putin merely reacted [...]
So he has, in the manner of someone who calmly executes a plan he knows is foolproof, a plan that will allow Russia to regain a piece of land many Russian soldiers have died for defending over the centuries, a piece of land I contest Russian generals were never happy to have lost in the first place.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Mar 15, 2014 11:59:36 PM | 54

oops, I contest Russian generals, should be "I contend Russian generals"

Posted by: Juan Moment | Mar 16, 2014 12:09:08 AM | 55

@Nora Thank you for darussophile link. He had an extremely interesting link there mapping growth rates throughout the former Soviet space. And to the three that belong - the Baltic States - it appears that EU membership has amounted to little.

Russia, of course, far outstrips them in growth. But nearby Belarus and the Central Asian states have about the same growth as the NAZO members. The one country that is mired in the murk is Ukraine, which certainly explains the rise of fascism there. So what can the Ukrainians expect from yet another round of kleptocrat rule - this time at the mercy of the EU bankers? Probably a whole lot of nothing - except for maybe a civil war.

Perhaps the best solution is the break up of the Ukraine. Leave the western half and its far-right revisionist to the tender mercy of the EU bureaucrats who know exactly how to bankrupt and break them.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 16, 2014 12:22:47 AM | 56

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/846263.shtml#.UyUjn-ddWvT

Backing Russia is in China’s interests

Russian President Vladimir Putin has sufficient means to ensure his country's advantage in its military actions in Ukraine, but Russia will face long-term pressure from the West. It will feel the effect of isolation by the West. The grand holding of the Sochi Winter Olympic Games shows that Russia still needs the acceptance of the international community.

When the Chinese government needs to practice its diplomatic balance in the situation in Ukraine, Chinese public opinion should firmly stand by Russia and support its resistance to pressure from the West. Such resistance is the real picture of the Ukraine crisis. Russia has no choice when faced with Western pressure.

Some think China's policy of non-interference will be tested in this matter, and that if China supports Russia, it will become ensnared in a diplomatic trap. This is the mentality of the weak. The West has interfered in the internal affairs of many countries, but never admitted it.

We prefer to agree with voices supporting Russia. Russia has been resisting the eastward trend of Western forces in Ukraine, which is important not only to its own fate but also to China's strategic interests. Russia and China are strategic buffer zones for each other. If Russia led by Putin is defeated by the West, it will deal a heavy blow to China's geopolitical interests.

Russia is the comprehensive strategic partner that China can most rely on. In the next two or three decades, no country will be able to replace Russia.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 16, 2014 12:36:50 AM | 57

TicoTiger (50)

Sorry for the misunderstanding. So, let me set it straight. I did not say (nor mean) "You are telling bullshit" - I merely looked critically at the (unsound) premiss behind many on-dits attributing weird speculations to Putin.

I'm also strongly against the "taking advantage" hypothesis because it implies a lot.

If "taking advantage" means "I'm at the gas station anyway, so I'll check and refill motor lubricant, too" it's correct. If, however, it means - and that is implied with Putins thinking and behaving - "Cool, my neighbour is in deep trouble, so I'll take advantage an fuck his wife, kill his dog, and steal his car" it's *wrong*.

In other words: The "Putin takes advantage" stories quite usually are but euphemisms for "Putin abuses the situation" - and that's plain wrong.

That's why I'm not at all sure Russia will accept Crimea into Russia. Yes, it might look attractive and yes, the Crimeans certainly want it and yes, it would be legal. But it would also in a sense go against valid agreements, namely the agreements made when ukraine and Russia separated.
How could Putin possibly object to zato taking in more and more countries if he himself "takes advantage" and grabs Crimea?

There are rules and Putin always stuck to them. And he often complained about others not sticking to them.

You are right, Putin is a brilliant man and sure enough more cunning than the G7 leaders combined. So why not simply - and without bias and preconception (and free of zato thinking) - ask the question differently and, btw. more realistically?

Why not asking the question as it looks like for Putin, namely "How to uncompromisingly stick to the rules and anyway create a situation more attractive for Russia?"

There *are* ways to do exactly that.

Some relevant factors:

- Russia has enough territory and no need for more. Russia also has access to the black sea anyway.
- Russia has by far the largest populace if all european countries. Any advantages gained by growing by some million or 10 mio can be gained as well by having loyal partners.
- If Crimea would accept the requests by other southern/eastern regions - and I have no reason to doubt it will - a strongly pro-Russian "conglomerate" of up to half the size and the populace of ukraine would be created.
- Putin does not want to play with or to even break rules and agreements.

That conglomerate could create a proper state with extremely close ties to and support by Russia. And Putin wouldn't have broken a single rule or agreement. He could perfectly justifiably say that a) those regions were free to break free from a zusa/zeu created criminal regime and b) that Russia is perfectly free to accept any country it pleases as partner.
At the same time the new country could join the Eurasian union, BRICS, etc.

As an added benefit for both sides, Russia would have the borders toward zato shifted toward the west. "Crimearine" would profit by knowing that Russia will certainly see to its security.

All in all zusa/zato/zeu wouldn't have any real or legal base for any allegations whatsoever against Russia, who would have stayed perfectly clean during the whole process. Putin would not have "taken advantage" in the sense of abusing ukraines weakness. At the same time the wezt would have lost in all regards and it would pay very very dearly for the next to worthless rest of ukraine; and even that would be tainted by long term contracts with China who, of course, would have and keep quite some influence without any additional cost or burden.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 16, 2014 12:47:39 AM | 58

@50 TicoTiger

I'm with you there. And what makes Putin and his strategists look like giants even more so? The drab, forgettable, embarrassing, marionette imbeciles on side zusa: John Kerry? McCain? Nudelman? Powers and Rice? (Not so nice).
And Emperor Obama? Turned out to be Bush latte all the way. And my standards were LOW after Bush...knee-high to curbside low. He's a better pitchman, but still a nearly evenly matched douche.
I've been watching Russia since Putin entered the scene, and did much reading up on what the nation went thru post 1991. There's a lot of people who respect him, and we aren't all rightwing FOX News lovers. As far as I'm concerned, here's a man who cared enough about his country not to continue the Yeltsin plunder of the 90's - that doesn't make him a fascist.
Russians are way better off with Putin than with any other Western backed sellout stooge, the likes of which we're stuck with here - one mindless, soulless automaton after another.

Posted by: Prey4 Justice | Mar 16, 2014 12:54:07 AM | 59

@59 Very well said. I couldn't agree more.

@Mr. P.: That is the most solid analysis on what may occur in Crimea from any source. Thank you.
...

Russia intercepts US drone over Crimea

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 16, 2014 1:02:17 AM | 60

Russian Truth ‏@RussianTruth1 6h
@WestphalianPost @SNalobin In 1 month media have transitioned Putin from shrewd calculating villain 2 insane madman with no grasp of reality

Sergey Nalobin (parliamentary Councillor Russian embassy UK)
‏@SNalobin
@RussianTruth1 @WestphalianPost more surprises are to come as they really underestimate Russia

Posted by: brian | Mar 16, 2014 1:04:29 AM | 61

The grand holding of the Sochi Winter Olympic Games shows that Russia still needs the acceptance of the international community.
@57

and who is this? but a gaggle of incestous mostly white identikit politicians....lets not make it out to be more

Posted by: brian | Mar 16, 2014 1:08:11 AM | 62

Posted by: TicoTiger | Mar 15, 2014 11:03:38 PM | 50

the pro-russians of east are already asking for referendums! they have had rallies in cities like Donetsk and Lugansk where they raise just this issue

Posted by: brian | Mar 16, 2014 1:10:07 AM | 63

Juan Moment (54)

To believe that, one would have to seriously underestimate Crimea's strategic and geographic importance and on top of that discount Putin's ability to spot an opportunity when it presents itself.

I feel you make a typical mistake of the weztern way of thinking. This shows, for instance in the "opportunity when it presents itself" phrase and the somewhat single-dimensional weztern understanding à la "grab it!".
That's funny for me because at the same time the zusa ex-imperium to a shockingly large degree was based on "souvereign" countries that were de facto mere colonies.


The referendum being held this Sunday with a near 100% certainty showing a large majority of Crimea's population wanting to join Russia, would not be taken place if Putin, as you claim, would prefer Crimea to stay part of Ukraine.

That's speculation. As I said before, that whole referendum thing is by far not as sweet as wezterners think at a first glance. And as I explained once more just above there are more than the 2 options everyone sees.

So he has, in the manner of someone who calmly executes a plan he knows is foolproof, a plan that will allow Russia to regain a piece of land many Russian soldiers have died for defending over the centuries, a piece of land I contest Russian generals were never happy to have lost in the first place.

That's true and sure enough there were many discussions in the Kremlin.

But things are more complicated. To offer an example: If Russia accepts Crimea into its borders what to do with the other regions? Accepting them in, too, would be problematic in many way (e.g. what to do with the non ethnic Russians there? Just taking them in might create another trouble spot and in a sensitive region). Not taking them in would create very ugly questions and discussion and millions would feel like 2nd class Russians. Others would say "Huh, the strategically important Crimea they take ... and us, we can perish and rot?!". Actually that might even make weztern approaches more attractive for them.

Russia is not zusa and Putin isn't bush or obama. Putin and Russia do not simply grab whatever they can get hold of. In part because Russia isn't willing to grab a couple million people and than, once they have them, forget them and not care about them zusa style.

Going for the whole eastern/southern regions to break free and create their own country gives both, those people and Russia 99% of what an annexation would offer and hardly 5% of the trouble and problems. At the same time it maximizes damage, cost, face and reputation loss and ridicule for zusa/zeu.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 16, 2014 1:11:16 AM | 64

the corpses of the Maidan dead are barely cold and already the likley villain is to decide how they were killed
Rory Yeomans ‏@roryyeomans 5h
#AndrijParubiy to lead #Kiev "sniper" investigation. If you know who he is, you'll understand why this is a bad sign: http://tinyurl.com/ow28s7n

Shots that killed both civilians and police officers were fired from the Philharmonic Hall building in Ukraine’s capital, former head of the Security Service of Ukraine Aleksandr Yakimenko told Russia 1 channel. The building was under full control of the opposition and particularly the so-called Commandant of Maidan self-defense Andrey Parubiy who after the coup was appointed as the Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine, Yakimenko added.

Furthermore the former security chief believes that Parubiy has been in contact with US Special Forces that could have coordinated the assault.

“Shots came from the Philharmonic Hall. Maidan Commandant Parubiy was responsible for this building. Snipers and people with automatic weapons were ‘working’ from this building on February 20. They supported the assault on the Interior Ministry forces on the ground who were already demoralized and have, in fact, fled,” Yakimenko said in an interview with Russian television.

The police officers were chased by a group of rioters armed with various we
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-snipers-security-chief-438/

Posted by: brian | Mar 16, 2014 1:14:30 AM | 65

Anybody see this? Probably, I'm always late to the party.
People seem polarized in their opinion of Gordon Duff, but this seems probable:

Leaked documents show US Embassy in Ukraine is staging a False Flag
http://journal-neo.org/2014/03/15/8929/

Evidence, including intercepted emails from “Anonymous Ukraine” and interviews with US special operations contractors, has led to the discovery of plans to stage a series of terror attacks in the Ukraine to be blamed on Russian Special Forces.

In a series of emails released on March 12, 2014, three in particular stand out. Implicated is Lt. Colonel Jason Kresh, Assistant Attaché at the US embassy in Kiev and Colonel Igor Protsyk, Chief, Bilateral Cooperation Division of the PKO General Staff, Armed Forces of the Ukraine.

Emails outline a plan for a staged attack on a Ukrainian air facility including maps of which planes are to be damaged. Other operations are outlined as well.

One thing is made clear; the attacks are to appear as though done by Russia. This is stated repeatedly.

One name, “Chief Mike,” mentioned as operational coordinator of a false flag terrorist unit is known to be a retired US Navy SEAL with a background working for the US State Department and as a contractor overseeing air transit facilities in Baluchistan/Pakistan suspected of involvement in drug trafficking...

Posted by: Prey4 Justice | Mar 16, 2014 2:10:26 AM | 66

Mr. Pragma, considering the many postings of yours describing Putin as a shrewd and clever leader, I am surprised to read you believe he doesn't understand the concept of an "opportunity presenting itself", let alone make use of it.

Despite your attempts at painting a different picture, I remain convinced that a strategist like Vladimir Putin, who despite the countless forces interested in removing him from power, within and abroad, managed to stay top dog for over a decade in a country like Russia, makes use of opportunities for breakfast.

And for some reason I highly doubt that in Sun Tzu's book the Art of War there is a sentence similar to "if an opportunity presents itself, don't take it." At least not in the 'weztern' versions I have come across.

[...] If Russia accepts Crimea into its borders what to do with the other regions? [...]
Thats a good point. My guess is Russia will play this by ear. Hard to believe Putin wouldn't already have plans drawn up on how to deal with the range of scenarios that could be unfolding.

From my reading of the situation and going by how Putin has played this so far - totally above board and open minded to Russia growing westwards - he right now is not actively encouraging ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine to follow the example of their Crimean brothers, but if a large enough majority of citizens in those Eastern regions call for it, he will act consistent and support a referendum to settle the issue.

He may suggest they add to the ballot the option of becoming autonomous within an Ukrainian federation, or even an independent state all together, but if the vote goes "We want in", he will let them in.

[...] Accepting them in, too, would be problematic in many way (e.g. what to do with the non ethnic Russians there? [...]
In case a majority chooses to join up with Russia, all those who refuse to accept the majority verdict and integration are invited to leave over time. I mean what is Scotland going to do with the many non ethnic Scots should they decide to separate?

Posted by: Juan Moment | Mar 16, 2014 2:35:56 AM | 67

Everyone still focuses on the pissing contest. But as the b's cited article notices, the situation would not be so bad for the junta if their leaders were not so "incredibly stupid" -- the article's words. It was obvious what needed to be done in order to have a successful coup. I wrote it before:

1. Send the NAZIs back to West -- the regular military would do it gladly
2. Appease the East -- tell them things will go as usual
3. Appease Moscow -- tell them things will go as usual
4. Elect your president and move with your agenda

Now it seems to me that the whole purpose if this thing was get Tymoshenko out of jail and punish those who put her there. Her release was the firs act of the junta. Now I read, they opened a criminal proceedings against

the judges that presided at her trial
the prosecutors
the experts that testified at her trial
the witnesses
in other words, everybody

A link from a Russia source, but I saw this on Uke sites as well:http://news.mail.ru/politics/17395396/

Posted by: CC | Mar 16, 2014 2:46:20 AM | 68

I think Tymoshenko and her people did not have a plan and cared little what happens after they get her out. Let's stir sh*t and have stupid Americans and Russians duke it out. The dog wags the tail and the tail wags the dog. Tymoshenko now sounds like a f**king neocon:
http://www.tymoshenko.ua/en/article/yulia_tymoshenko_12_03_2014_Reuters

Let's blow this planet in a nuclear piss-up and worry about the consequences later..

Posted by: CC | Mar 16, 2014 2:57:42 AM | 69

68 CC
You describe Julia Timoshenko's Fatherland party.

The Fascists have a goal of their own
- civil war

Posted by: somebody | Mar 16, 2014 2:58:49 AM | 70

it begins
live feed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN8ns-u_2SA&feature=share

Posted by: brian | Mar 16, 2014 2:59:10 AM | 71

Putin and Russia do not simply grab whatever they can get hold of. [...]
Mr Pragma, Crimea isn't just "whatever", the fact that you choose to characterise it that way gives an insight into your, how shall I say, warped understanding of the Russian perspective.

Plus, I never wrote Russia grabbed anything, you are fighting wind mills. What I wrote is the exact opposite. Knowing full well that in the face of nazis overrunning Kiev most Crimeans would rather join Russia, Putin's plan was to not stop the nazis and then swiftly ensure Crimeans can hold a referendum. Instead of grabbing the Crimea, he is accepting them. Smart.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Mar 16, 2014 3:00:07 AM | 72

I wonder can one out-crazy a crazy neocon...?

Posted by: CC | Mar 16, 2014 3:03:28 AM | 73

@70
I know, right sector, svoboda and co were a tool. Tymoshenko's sexually immature boys (just look at the "president" and 'prime minister") are in the "drivers" seat right now. The nationalists, as they would prefer to call themselves, would like to have an ethnically pure state, so they really want a genocide, an ethnic cleansing, not a civil war per se. The nationalists do not even care to join the EU (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25826238).


Posted by: CC | Mar 16, 2014 3:16:28 AM | 74

China opposes 'confrontational' UN vote, abstains on Crimea resolution

China on Sunday called for a political solution instead of confrontation after the United Nations Security Council failed to adopt a draft resolution on the ongoing crisis in Ukraine.

"China does not agree to a move of confrontation," Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang said in response to a question after the vote on Saturday.

Russia vetoed the draft resolution, drawn up by the United States and backed by Western countries, that declared that a planned referendum slated for Sunday on the status of Ukraine's Crimea region "can have no validity" ...

"The vote on the draft resolution by the Security Council at this juncture will only result in confrontation and further complicate the situation, which is not in conformity with the common interests of both the people of Ukraine and those of the international community," Qin said, explaining why China, a permanent Security Council member, abstained from the vote.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 16, 2014 3:38:22 AM | 75

Juan Moment

You are free to think and believe whatever you please, incl. that I'm weird and stupid.
You are not, however, free to turn around or considerably bend what I say.

Mr. Pragma, considering the many postings of yours describing Putin as a shrewd and clever leader, I am surprised to read you believe he doesn't understand the concept of an "opportunity presenting itself", let alone make use of it.

I didn't say that Putin "doesn't understand the concept of an opportunity presenting itself".

Despite your attempts at painting a different picture, I remain convinced that a strategist like Vladimir Putin, who despite the countless forces interested in removing him from power, within and abroad, managed to stay top dog for over a decade in a country like Russia, makes use of opportunities for breakfast.

Neither did I try to paint a different picture nor did I say that Putin doesn't recognize or use opportunities.

What I did say was that - and there seems to be the problem of your understanding or the lack thereof - Putin doesn't think or act the blunt and stupid zamerican way.

To the rest of you post it's not even worth to answer in any detail because you just make up things like "Putin has played this so far ... open minded to Russia growing westwards ". Not that there is any proof or even just any strong indicator for that but hey, feel free to feel or to be convinced of whatever you please ...

All in all you seem to be stuck in some kind of zamerican "thinking" and are merely projecting that on Putin; what you describe is basically what a zamerican politician would do, if here were in Putins shoes.

I personally prefer to stick to *known* facts like Putin consistently accepting international law and sticking to agreements - which he did again re. ukraine! - or Putin acting very rationally or Putin not thinking short-term.

As far as Crimea is concerned Russia spoke a lot about helping and supporting Crimea in pretty every way - but there was no official statement saying Russia would make Crimea a part of Russia if Crimea decided that to be their favourite option.

And indeed "coming home to Russia" currently is more a metaphorical phrase within a frame of mind (created by whomsoever) that implies there are just two options, either joining Russia or staying a terrorized part of ukraine under a criminal regime.
One way to explain this could be Crimean leaders preferring a very simply high-contrast formula for the peoples mind. After all "creating our own state and have other regions join" sounds complicated, maybe even frightening for many average people with not much political knowledge. "joining Russia" sound simple and cozy.
Furthermore, if one would have given 3 options to chose from, one would have cemented and fixed a lot. After all, if offering the option "join Russia" - which was a must alone for being so evident a desire of many - plus the third option of creating a Crimean state, one could hardly later say "Sorry, just a pragmatic necessity; we'll ignore, say, 60% of your voices and anyway go with the second most voted option to create a state".
As I said, things, if looked at properly and profoundly, hardly ever are as simple as zamerican "minds" want - and need - it.
Remember medvedev explaining a year or two ago that Russia was not yet ready for a full-scale democracy and that Russia still needed a "guided democracy"? Well, here one might see an example for what he meant.
And just btw. he perfectly right! Actually even western countries aren't ready for a full-scale democracy. Because the people aren't. Just look at zusa and what people understand (shockingly many zamericans, for instance do not even know the length of a senate term) and what/whom they vote for or even what they *accept* as de facto system and choices.

The question that this (Crimea referendum) is all about is first and foremost "do we want to stay with/in ukraine or not?".
The "joining Russia" option can very quickly turn into separating from ukraine, becoming a state and being very closely linked to Russia, e.g. militarily, using the Ruble, etc.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 16, 2014 3:41:45 AM | 76

Senator Hoeven promises Ukraine American gas....
McCain promises Iran-style sanctions....

http://www.unian.ua/politics/896910-ssha-podumuyut-natisnuti-na-rosiyu-prodayuchi-ukrajini-sviy-skrapleniy-gaz.html

Blow, blow hard on these cinders... Töten für W.O.T.A.N

(mistranslated toten before, it means kill, kill for wotan)

Posted by: CC | Mar 16, 2014 4:01:44 AM | 77

If Putin wanted to take advantage, ukraine would now be under Russian control, poland would be close to destruction (they easily deserved it many times over), and rumania and other south-east european zato whores would be in a frenzy to get rid of zato (or face very major problems).

But again, that's not Putin and not Russia. It's zato in its unrealistic and delusional self-assessment to consider itself important and, oh so dangerous.

Are you using the term "take advantage" in an unusual way? If not, you're contending above that it would be to Russia's "advantage" to invade and conquer Ukraine, and that it could successfully do so. Why do you think ruling Ukraine would be to Russia's advantage? Why do you think such a Russian invasion would be successful, i.e. that overall Russia would be ahead of the game economically and strategically after suffering from the West's and Ukrainians' resistance, sanctions and warfare?

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 16, 2014 4:50:25 AM | 78

US Army to proceed with planned exercise in Ukraine

However, planning for Rapid Trident 2014 — a large, USAREUR-led multinational exercise scheduled for July — is ongoing, he said.

That exercise, in Lviv, near the Polish border, is to “promote regional stability and security, strengthen partnership capacity, and foster trust while improving interoperability between USAREUR, the land forces of Ukraine, and other (NATO and partner) nations,” according to the USAEUR website.

In addition to USAREUR troops, Rapid Trident 2014 will include units from Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Canada, Georgia, Germany, Moldova, Poland, Romania, the United Kingdom and Ukraine, Westover said. It will feature a combined U.S. and Ukrainian battalion headquarters practicing a peacekeeping operation, he said. “Exercise planning will continue until we are told otherwise.”

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 16, 2014 5:00:40 AM | 79

fairleft

I was using "taking advantage" in the zamerican way that is, meaning "abusing".

As for the rest of your post I won't answer because you have amply demonstrated both your complete lack of understanding the relevant factors and your largely propagandistic intentions.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 16, 2014 5:06:01 AM | 80

Mr Pragma, I didn't twist your words. You are trying to make us believe that Putin did not recognise an opportunity, he did not have a plan, and if he did have one then it must have been one that leads to no advantage for Russia because he doesn't act the blunt and stupid zamerican way [sic].

[..] To the rest of you post it's not even worth to answer in any detail [...]
I'd like to say ditto, but there is one more piece of obvious nonsense I can't resist commenting on.
[...] because you just make up things like "Putin has played this so far ... open minded to Russia growing westwards ". Not that there is any proof or even just any strong indicator for that but hey, feel free to feel or to be convinced of whatever you please ...
You can engage in semantics all you want to wriggle your way through this argument, but the fact remains that Putin has neither spoken out against the Crimean referendum nor has he in anyway indicated that "because Russia doesn't act the blunt and stupid zamerican way" the Kremlin will not accept Crimea back into its territory should a majority of Crimeans vote this way. Hell, just yesterday Russia vetoed a UNSC resolution deeming the referendum illegal.

That to me indicates that he is open minded about Russia growing on its western borders. full stop.

The Russian president at every turn has he supported the idea of a vote and reiterated that such a referendum is in line with accepted UN conventions.

So, until you can provide, and here I paraphrase you, any proof or even just any strong indicator that Putin's Kremlin would have preferred for Crimea to not vote today on joining Russia, until then you can save yourself any further claims that deep down Putin is unhappy about the Crimea possibly becoming Russian again.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Mar 16, 2014 5:07:33 AM | 81

70

How funny.

a) So what? That doesn't concern Russia (although Putin might make some noise about it for purely tactical reasons).

b) Wait and see. ukraine in july will be much different from ukraine today.

c) Just one more argument for Crimea and other southern/eastern regions to separate.

d) One more zato demonstrates how ridiculous they are.

e) lvov, the most western corner of ukraine. That looks as if zato wanted to take no risk to *really* provoke Russia. Just farting cowards.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 16, 2014 5:12:35 AM | 82

Ukraine does not recognize the referendum which is taking place in Crimea Volodymyr Khandogiy, Ukraine’s Ambassador to the UK, told the BBC.

A referendum, any vote in the situation when you have foreign troops stationed there would not produce any meaningful results. The votes would be casted with the foreign occupation of Crimea. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/16/crimea-referendum-polls-open-live?CMP=twt_gu so.....this means any country with US military bases....cant hold referendums?! so japan kosovo turkey italy UK australia etc cant hold referendums?

Posted by: brian | Mar 16, 2014 5:12:59 AM | 83

Cara Sposa ‏@murashckina 12h
"Russophobic hysteria over #Crimea referendum is everywhere, all Western authorities're against it"- Finish human rights activist J.Backman

Posted by: brian | Mar 16, 2014 5:14:22 AM | 84

Justin Trested ‏@JustinTrestedUK 12h
@Pickme2be @NinaByzantina It wasn't always, the indegenous people of Crimea were mostly pushed out under the Soviet Union.

Nina Byzantina
‏@NinaByzantina
@JustinTrestedUK @Pickme2be Interesting to see someone with the Union Jack background talking about "pushing out indigenous people." :)

Posted by: brian | Mar 16, 2014 5:30:12 AM | 85

Juan Moment (81)

Mr Pragma, I didn't twist your words. You are trying to make us believe that Putin did not recognise an opportunity, he did not have a plan, and if he did have one then it must have been one that leads to no advantage for Russia because he doesn't act the blunt and stupid zamerican way [sic].

As if to prove me right you outright invented bullshit. I said none of the above.
It's not my problem if you are incapable of understanding the difference between "recognizing an opportunity" and "Taking advantage of/using an opportunity".

You can engage in semantics all you want to wriggle your way through this argument, but the fact remains that Putin has neither spoken out against the Crimean referendum nor has he in anyway indicated that "because Russia doesn't act the blunt and stupid zamerican way" the Kremlin will not accept Crimea back into its territory should a majority of Crimeans vote this way. Hell, just yesterday Russia vetoed a UNSC resolution deeming the referendum illegal.
That to me indicates that he is open minded about Russia growing on its western borders. full stop.

Well, I assume that Giselle Blumchen (a famous model) "never has spoken out against" having sex with you. Does that mean, she wants to have sex with you? Hardly.
And again you feel being smart where, in fact, you are simply incapable to understand differences.

So, until you can provide, and here I paraphrase you, any proof or even just any strong indicator that Putin's Kremlin would have preferred for Crimea to not vote today on joining Russia, until then you can save yourself any further claims that deep down Putin is unhappy about the Crimea possibly becoming Russian again.

I do not need to provide any proof or indicator for that. Because I didn't say it.

Putin merely spoke about the *right* to hold this referendum. And he supported that *right* in different ways, for instance his unsc veto. Well noted, the right of largely ethnic Russian citizens of another country.

And again you fail to differentiate and to intellectually resolve different issues and factors.
And again you simply ignore known facts. Like the fact that in Abchasija and South-Ossetija also feel themselves being a part of Russia (and around 90% *are* Russian citizens) and yet Putin never hinted at having them joining Russia; he did, however, against major weztern resistance recognize them as souvereign states.

You should discuss with fairleft. He is similarly uninformed, relentless and idiotic as you.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 16, 2014 5:37:23 AM | 86

Leftovers from the thread: Ukraine: A State Falling Apart?

"thomas

MoA is not a dump site for propaganda shit.

You believe in the power and usefulness of this or that antifa movement? Great. Send them your money. Even put a link and some account info here - not that it's worth anything but hey, your rights shall be be respected.

But we also have rights. And we're certainly not here at MoA to get bombarded by multiple long propaganda pieces.

I feel particularly offended by those pieces of shit (you dumped here) suggesting that "the eastern and southern regions" are particularly nazi infested. Furthermore you dare to entertain the proposal of Germans (of all!) to fight Nazis in ukraine?
How about first cleaning your own German Nazi mess?! How about first cleaning your secret services, your police, even your state police who happened to actively and in most dirty ways supporting Nazi, even known murders, even worse, your authorities co-operated those murders.

Let me set you straight, Mr German propaganda agent, thomas.

While the Nazi voters percentage is usually given as between 10% and 15% for ukraine by western Nazi supporting msm, the truth is quite different.

The correct numbers are > 15%, often even 25% and more in *western* ukraine with *western* ukraine hot spots of > 33% (e.g. lvov) - in the eastern and southern parts you play to be so concerned about the numbers are within the margin of error, i.e. around 1%.

@all

I suggest we refrain from quoting a lot from msm, twitter, etc., in particular lenghty stuff or series of tweets.
Why? Because OF COURSE the ukraine nazi and thug regime supporters in the wezt are and will be firing their propaganda cannons in berserk mode. Dumping or even discussing that here at MoA will merely distract and ruin reasonable discussions.

What troubles me more than all the vain and rotten propaganda shit is the fact that for a second time protesters and policemen have been killed by nazi sturmtruppen attacks. That in itself is sad, disgusting and dangerously explosive; but there is a second danger, namely that Russia feels ever more pressure to protect our compatriots and ethnic Russians.

I personally wouldn't have the slightest problem with Russia going in and taking care of the problem the hard way but it would, of course, be abused by the weztern nazi friends to make Russia look evil (about which I wouldn't care neither but Russias government would).

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 15, 2014 6:24:14 PM | 174

guest77 (176)

we might discuss what Ahmadinejad meant when he discussed the holocaust in terms of a "myth."

But it *is* a myth. Possibly a myth that could turn out to be true if properly examined.
But until it's properly examined, according to well established scientific standards and in an unbiased way, it's a myth.

That's the definition of "myth". Some story that is widely known and that has not been properly examined and proven true or false.
And there is more. If certain not insignificant details of a story are proven wrong then that facts adds weight to the assumption the story is a myth and not fact.

Well noted, my desire isn't to deny (or to declare true) the holocaust story; doing that one would by definition be excluded from the group of credible observers. My point is merely that the holocaust has not been examine properly and scientifically and unbiased, and that there are (even major) factors indicating that the holocaust is at least in part a myth, i.e. not what and as it is being told.

I might be wrong (I don't speak Farsi) but from what I know Achmadinedschad did *not* deny the holocaust but he did invite to properly examine in an unbiased way.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 15, 2014 6:56:20 PM | 177"


This so-called "Mr. Pragma" obviously is the owner of the blog here, otherwise i cannot explain his rants against my right of freedom of expression when I'm just offering a different perspective: I'm convinced that fighting a NATO / EU move to include the Ukraine into their spheres of influence will not be successful by subordinating the interests of the citizens of Ukraine under another authoritarian rule, Putin's Russia. I cannot even find any of the points "Mr Pragma" is making against the articles and thoughts I presented in there, he justs spins some strawmen and fights them, but nothing can be find in the articles themselves.

This guy who is occupying close to 20% of the comments space on MoA, expressing himself on every issue discussed here more or less every half an hour of the day is complaining about some lengthy articles I sent? So far I did not have a single exchange of opinions with him, nevertheless he comes down on me like God Zeus. He is the perfect authoritarian compulsive character, neurotic and ad hominem with everybody (just count how many other commentators have been insulted by him already). I imagine he sits in his little apartment every day, not doing anything else than hurling lightings against mankind who doesn't understand the real importance of great statemen like Putin, Assad, Ahmadinejad and, not to forget, "Mr Pragma" himself. But the formers are or were ruling countries, at least parts of it, whereas he is only ruling in his 50m2 appartment.

His childish behaviour of adding a "Z" to everything (which unfortunately is copied by some other commentators here) has been toppled now in his last comment in the Ukraine thread: now this antisemite is openly denying the holocaust under the normal antisemite pretext: "My point is merely that the holocaust has not been examine properly and scientifically and unbiased" - this great spirit Mr Pragma has not examined and proven what 100.000s of scientists and researcher have written on the holocaust, so it is "in part a myth". Said and sealed by Mr Pragma, don't even dare to contradict.

He is the perfect authoritarian SS-character, the officer Maximilian Aue, Jonathan Littell describes in his great book: "Les Bienveillantes" about the Nazi extinguishing crusade in Ukraine in WWII. Mr Pragma's very similar destruction fantasies against Israel, "Zionism", "Zionists" and even the US are also covered in an academic fashion by using the old roman proverb about the need to destroy Carthago.

But maybe the "Mr Pragma" isn't a real person; I rather think the character has been developed by some secret services - maybe the CIA or other "zionists" - to destroy the reputation of this blog by spreading antisemite, antidemocratic and authoritarian thoughts. I cannot imagine who else would be in a position to always write and comment without obviously going to work and having a private life apart from the internet.

Posted by: thomas | Mar 16, 2014 5:58:41 AM | 87

thomas

Thanks for confirming that you are a staunch zionist.

Unfortunately though, your position seems to be limited to theoretical declarations, preferably concerning other countries and ignoring my hints about the German situation with state police and secret services supporting and even co-operating with Nazis, although these have killed a lot of people.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 16, 2014 6:30:10 AM | 88

P.S.

I do not comment the insane personal attacks on me as they are obviously baseless and written by someone out of control.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 16, 2014 6:32:23 AM | 89

Ukraine was never a bastion for press freedom …

Ukraine authorities block Russian TV

(3News.nz) - Late Thursday night, clashes broke out in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk between government supporters and a hostile pro-Russian crowd. At one point a pro-Russian mob encircled and threw objects at a small huddle of people, shouting for them to get on their knees. At least one person died in the turmoil.

Rossiya-1, another state station, on the same evening reported that the incident had been provoked by "special forces" of the Maidan, the informal name of the movement that brought about last month's ouster of President Viktor Yanukovych.

Ukraine's pushback against the Kremlin-led smear campaign has not been much more sophisticated.

Broadcast authorities there on Tuesday ordered the suspension of the signal of Russian state-controlled television stations, a move that drew swift indignation from Moscow and international media advocacy groups alike. [Who is Rada MP Mykola Knyazhytsky?]


Full article here.

Posted by: Oui | Mar 16, 2014 6:36:24 AM | 90

Mr Pragma @80:

I was using "taking advantage" in the zamerican way that is, meaning "abusing".

Russia doesn't face the same freedom of maneuver and risk/reward that the US does, so it would pay a heavy economic sanctions price for your hypothetical invasion of Ukraine. We've seen this in how Iran is punished severely for simply acting on its right to nuclear power. An actual invasion counter to the interests of the US empire would draw a similar reaction at the very least.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 16, 2014 6:53:21 AM | 91

fairleft

a) we have also seen that zusa, no matter how much they threatened, did not (dare to) militarily attack Iran.

b) there is little one can learn about the danger to Russia by looking at the danger to Iran. The countries, their mil. capabilities, their situation, and many other factors are way too much different.

Well noted, my point isn't convincing anyone incl. you of anything. You want to believe in a supreme and invincible zusa? No problem with me. Go ahead and feel well.
But I won't let obviously nonsensical remarks about Russia go uncommented.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 16, 2014 7:01:44 AM | 92

thomas @87. I agree Mr Pragma "is the perfect authoritarian compulsive character, neurotic and ad hominem with everybody." Well said! Unfortunately, I would not bet that he's a construct of an Israeli or U.S. counterintelligence operation. There's no need to invent; if you've been around awhile, you've met the type in the flesh once in a while, which is too often.

On the other hand, he was right about your incredibly long comments. Just give us a taste and a link.

I think the best philosophy as always is don't feed the trolls. But posts such as yours _are_ important, so as not to leave the impression there is general agreement here at moonofalabama with Mr Pragma's anti-semitism and his self-puffing buffoonery.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 16, 2014 7:14:01 AM | 93

Terre ‏@terbleu 44m
Osmaev (the correct name) could not be extradited from Ukraine to Russia because of interference of the European human rights court.
(why dud EHR interfere?)
Terre ‏@terbleu 46m
..Osmanov (he is Chechen) is a suspect in the case of an assassination attempt against Putin. Osmanov was arrested in 2012 in Ukraine.

Terre ‏@terbleu 50m
Amina Okueva, recognized by an Ukrainian journalist as one of his torturers on Maidan in Kiev, happens to be a wife of Adam Osmanov...

Posted by: brian | Mar 16, 2014 7:18:51 AM | 94

Terre @terbleu 33m
In the ID of a Russian "spy" caught by the Ukrainian SBU his rank is simply stated as... "a spy" LOL

Terre @terbleu 36m
A Russian "spy" caught by the Ukrainian security service, SBU, has entire Russian Internet laughing out loud: http://www.ridus.ru/news/156558 :)))

Posted by: brian | Mar 16, 2014 7:20:18 AM | 95

Me and anti-semitism? Thanks so much for the good laugh I had.

Actually I am among the contributors here who clearly speak out against mixing up "jew" and "zionist", and I have done that more than once.

But, of course, you as zionists do not like that. After all you depend on people mixing it up as you hide behind the jews. Accordingly you are trying to smear me as anti-semitic.

I've said it before: don't the israelis have any agents with a brain?

nuland yourself!


Ceterum censeo israel americanamque vehementer delenda esse!

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 16, 2014 7:31:07 AM | 96

25 members of the Töten für W.O.T.A.N (kill for woten) Misanthropic Division of the Right Sector of Rusyn nationalist/fascists are held in prison in Kharkiv on charges of murder, assault on a police officer, mass disturbance that led to loss of life and others. Watch for attacks on law enforcement officers, judges and a potential storm of the prison where the 25 are kept.

http://espreso.tv/new/2014/03/16/sud_posadyv_pid_aresht_25_zatrymanykh_pislya_kharkivskoyi_strilyanyny

Follow the Misanthropic Division here (easy to translate in Google Chrome): http://vk.com/w8tan

Posted by: CC | Mar 16, 2014 7:32:22 AM | 97

Mr Pragma, indeed, I probably am better off discussing the Ukraine with other barflies, your style of engagement is lame.

[...] Well, I assume that Giselle Blumchen (a famous model) "never has spoken out against" having sex with you. Does that mean, she wants to have sex with you? Hardly. [...]

I just quoted above a paragraph of yours in which you, using your usual polemic, are clearly saying that whilst Putin hasn't spoken out against the referendum he doesn't want it to happen.

Even though I have a feeling you gonna use your favorite cop out of "I didn't say that" in a minute, let me summarise your argument as far as I understood it anyhow:

Putin is a clever and powerful leader, who despite its historic and strategic importance doesn't want the Crimean peninsula become part of Russia again.

Should this be the case, Putin and Russian policy makers indeed being opposed to the idea, then what does the fact that Crimea is today voting on joining Russia say about Putin as strategic thinker and skillful leader of his government?

You discredit the man, make him out to be powerless to influence events in Russia's near abroad. Let me tell you he isn't and the vote happening as we speak is proof thereof. Lucky for Russia it is being led by people more clued in and proactive in shaping real politik than you.

[...] but there was no official statement saying Russia would make Crimea a part of Russia if Crimea decided that to be their favourite option.[...]
Mr Pragma, it took me all but 2 minutes to dig out the evidence needed to show that you, whilst pretending to be super smart and the authority on all things Russia, are actually talking crap.
Russian parliament vows support for Crimean referendum

The Russian parliament has said it will support the inclusion of Crimea into the Russian Federation. The announcement came a day after Crimean lawmakers voted to hold a referendum in a move to break away from Ukraine.

Both the upper and lower houses of parliament signaled on Friday that they would welcome the will of voters in Crimea to join the Russian Federation. Lawmakers in the Black Sea peninsula, which has a majority Russian-speaking population, have scheduled a referendum for March 16 to determine the region's allegiance. [...]


As I said, I probably am better off discussing the Ukraine with other barflies, with you it leads nowhere.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Mar 16, 2014 7:35:39 AM | 98

Gaianne, you obviously have followed peak oil "debate" and speak knowledgeably about world oil situation. I started following Jay Hanson's blog http://dieoff.org/ back in early 2000s, unfortunately he quit sometime around 2012. You and Horsewhisperer are right with all your comments on this thread. And its not tangential to what is happening in Ukraine, it's quite relevant - right now Ukraine is the transit path of Russian energy to Europe. If the coup govt in Kiev survives there will be enormous pressure put on them by the US to blackmail Russia into giving up control of their transit corridor through Ukraine.

Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 16, 2014 7:42:20 AM | 99

P.S.I do not comment the insane personal attacks on me as they are obviously baseless and written by someone out of control.
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 16, 2014 6:32:23 AM | 89

"Thomas" is obviously a sockpuppet for some other less than honest leftwing regular of this blog, childishly pretending to be a noob,

The hatred for Mr Pragma is plain as "thomas" is desperately trying to discredit and misrepresent him.

He showed up recently, around the time bevin was having his ass handed to him by both JSorrentine and Mr Pragma. Since then no word from bevin, but plenty from "thomas"

And of course "thomas" is obviously pushing bevin-like talking points eg: everyone that disagrees with bevin is a nazi etc etc

Certainly fits with the sort of ethically questionable behavior certain leftwing regulars here have been displaying recently

Posted by: tsk | Mar 16, 2014 7:47:09 AM | 100

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