March 25, 2014
Ukraine: Purge Of The Fascists?
(There was no time yet to read through all your comments on yesterday's thread so I am not sure how much of this has been mentioned yet.)
The fascist defense minister Tenyukh, who wanted to start a war with Russia, is probably being dismissed today by the Ukrainian rump-parliament. The provisional president designated one Mykhailo Koval as acting minister of defense. But Reuters reports that Tenyukh himself asked to be dismissed and that the parliament lacked the votes to accept it. Other claims differ. I have not yet found the reasons for this move. Was it because Tenyukh wanted to start a war or because he did not manage to do so? Or was it the fact that about 80% of the Ukrainian troops on Crimea defied his orders and decided to move over to the Russian side?
In other news one of the most dangerous leaders of the Pravyh Sektor, the muscle paramilitary side of the fascists in Ukraine, was shot down and killed near the west-Ukrainian city of Rivne. It is unclear who killed him and why. According to the (anti-Putin) Moscow Times:
Ukrainian lawmaker Oleksandr Doniy said on his Facebook page that unknown assailants blocked off Muzychko's car, dragged him out of the vehicle, cuffed his hands behind his back, and shot him twice in the chest.
Vse and another Rivne website, ChaRivne, said that townspeople believed that Muzychko had been gunned down by a "Russian subversive group."
"Those who killed him made sure that he was not wearing a bulletproof vest and then shot him in the heart," Right Sector activist Yaroslav Hranitskiy said, ChaRivne reported.
Muzychko earlier this month accused the Ukrainian Prosecutor General's Office and police of planning to kill him or capture and hand him over to Russia.
"I am not afraid of death," he said in a YouTube video. He said his "friends, brothers, patriots" would "continue the battle."
Voice of Russia as well as Associated Press report that Oleksandr Muzychko was killed by Ukrainian police forces:
Ukraine's Interior Ministry says a prominent member of a radical nationalist movement in Ukraine that played a key role in recent anti-government demonstrations was killed during a police operation to detain him.
Police say Muzychko was sought for organized crime links, hooliganism and for threatening public officials.
The Interior Ministry said Tuesday that Muzychko was shot dead after opening fire on police.
Muzychko was an embarrassment for the government. The allegation that the February 21 coup in Kiev was executed by mostly fascist forces is based on the roles that Tenyukh, Muzychko and others played in it. Removing them now may be an attempt to clean the image of the putschists.
Posted by b on March 25, 2014 at 06:23 AM | Permalink
Repost from the previous thread. This is epic...
This is from the Misanthropic division...
This is entitled: The oligarchs beginning the attack....
The article says that:
the oligarchs brought in foreign mercenaries to clan up Right Sector and the area around Kiev city (?, maybe because of recent criminal activity there) and suppress protests in the East
Sashko Biliy is just the beginning, the hit to the heart indicates foreign Western killers
Yarosh (the leader of right sector) will be next. The oligarchs would like to decapitate the leadership and goad the common members into National Gvardia (a type of internal special forces that would be a private army of the oligarchs). The oligarchs are bringing foreign Western mercenaries to lead the Gvardia units. Gvardia will be used to suppress popular discontent and to protect the oligarchs.
There will be provocations by the foreign forces to test readiness of the Right Sector
Turchinov (speaker of the legislature) and Kolomiski (oligarch, governor of the Dnipropetrovsk region, dual citizenship with Israel) and other members of the legislature sponsor the foreigners
The West does not need revolutionaries who undermined Eurointegration. The West will destroy their own relations.
The revolution consumes its own revolutionaries
From here: http://vk.com/w8tan?w=wall-44739306_172026
Well, at least they were under no illusion that the alliance would last. Tymoshenko is ruthless. Until she is around none of them is safe...
Posted by: CC | Mar 25, 2014 6:50:28 AM | 1
Posted by: CC | Mar 25, 2014 6:50:28 AM | 1
I guess, what they will do now is a IRA/ETA strategy. To have a military arm funded by a nationalist expatriate community in the US and Canada, crime/extortion and possibly the Pentagon/CIA who like to have proxies they might activate if convenient, plus an official political arm.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 7:10:43 AM | 2
This was expected. The West, after their debacle in Iraq/Afghanistan, have adopted the policy of my enemy's enemy is my friend. We saw how they used Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, Libya and now Syria.
The plan is to use these expendables for their dirty jobs and then get rid of them when they're finish serving their usefulness.
But this plan has the potential to backfire as the monsters they create usually develop a mind of their own. They begin to think for themselves (bad idea). We saw this in Libya where the very rebels they trained and armed eventually murdered the US ambassador in Benghazi. Also in Afghanistan where those glorious Wahhabi mujaheddin ended up become the Taliban, who the West will spent/still spending an entire decade fighting them. There's method in the madness.
This murder of the right sector idiot won't go down well for the EU..Yats, if he loves his life, must get on the next plane to Brussels.
Posted by: Zico | Mar 25, 2014 7:10:55 AM | 3
Putin has done for Russia : • Over 12 years of Putin Russia has increased the budget by 22 times , military spending - 30 times GDP - 12 times ( Russia jumped from 36th place in the world in terms of GDP 2nd place) • Increased international reserves 48 times ! • returned 256 mineral deposits in the Russian jurisdiction • ripped bonded "liberal" in the history of the production sharing agreement .
• 65% nationalized the oil industry and 95% of gas and many other industries .
• raised the industry and agriculture ( Russian for 5 consecutive years ranked 2-3 in the world grain exports , surpassing the U.S. , which are now on the 4th place).
• increase the average salary in the public sector to 18.5 times in 12 years , while the average pension - 14 times.
• Well, it is quite a small thing : Putin (he ) has lowered the extinction of the Russian population with 1.5 million people per year in 1999 to 21 thousand in 2011 , ie 71.5 times .
• In addition , Putin canceled Khasavyurt agreement - than defended the integrity of Russia, gave publicity to NGOs - the fifth column and banned MPs have an account abroad , defended Syria, end the war in Chechnya and returned to Crimea ! !
Posted by: brian | Mar 25, 2014 7:15:00 AM | 4
Posted by: brian | Mar 25, 2014 7:15:00 AM | 4
Brian, you are a tool. So it was Putin who did all this? What about the people of Russia?
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 7:18:24 AM | 5
'But in effect Gorbachev capitulated; the USSR was dismembered and, over the course of the 1990s, Russia itself came close to being destroyed and dismembered. Although in the West, where he is still a popular figure, Gorbachev is credited with orchestrating a peaceful dissolution of the USSR, the chaotic aftermath of the collapse of the USSR was an extremely traumatic event, with massive loss of life. When Putin calls the collapse of the USSR “the largest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” he echoes the feelings of many Russians—who, by the way, like to call Gorbachev “Mishka mécheny” (“Mickey the marked”—marked by the devil, that is.) ;'
Posted by: brian | Mar 25, 2014 7:19:00 AM | 6
What was it that you said a month ago, B?
"From the spirits that I called - Sir, deliver me!"
So there's your answer to the UN caption competition.
Churkin: Who you gonna call?
And so it begins.
Posted by: Pat Bateman | Mar 25, 2014 7:31:57 AM | 7
6) Alcoholic Boris Yelzin split the Soviet Union, not Gorbachev.
On 29 May 1990, he was elected chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (RSFSR), in spite of the fact that Gorbachev personally pleaded with the Russian deputies not to select Yeltsin. He was supported by both democratic and conservative members of the Supreme Soviet, which sought power in the developing political situation in the country. A part of this power struggle was the opposition between power structures of the Soviet Union and the RSFSR. In an attempt to gain more power, on 12 June 1990, the Congress of People's Deputies of the RSFSR adopted a declaration of sovereignty. On 12 July 1990, Yeltsin resigned from the CPSU in a dramatic speech before party members at the 28th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, some of whom responded by shouting "Shame!"
On 12 June 1991, Yeltsin won 57% of the popular vote in the democratic presidential elections for the Russian republic, defeating Gorbachev's preferred candidate, Nikolai Ryzhkov who got just 16% of the vote, and four other candidates. In his election campaign, Yeltsin criticized the "dictatorship of the center", but did not suggest the introduction of a market economy. Instead, he said that he would put his head on the railtrack in the event of increased prices. Yeltsin took office on 10 July, and reappointed Ivan Silayev as Chairman of the Council of Ministers – Government of the Russian SFSR.
On 18 August 1991, a coup against Gorbachev was launched by the government members opposed to perestroika. Gorbachev was held in Crimea while Yeltsin raced to the White House of Russia (residence of the Supreme Soviet of the RSFSR) in Moscow to defy the coup, making a memorable speech from atop the turret of a tank onto which he had climbed. The White House was surrounded by the military but the troops defected in the face of mass popular demonstrations. By 21 August most of the coup leaders had fled Moscow and Gorbachev was "rescued" from Crimea and then returned to Moscow. Yeltsin was subsequently hailed by his supporters around the world for rallying mass opposition to the coup.
Although restored to his position, Gorbachev had been destroyed politically. Neither union nor Russian power structures heeded his commands as support had swung over to Yeltsin. Taking advantage of the situation, Yeltsin began taking what remained of the Soviet government, ministry by ministry—including the Kremlin.
On 6 November 1991, Yeltsin issued a decree banning all Communist Party activities on Russian soil.
But it is typical for you that you attack the guy that ended Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe and East Germany, and opened Soviet archives to the people, not the guy who drank off the empire.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 7:37:34 AM | 9
Gregor Gysi is talking sense
They have not realized back in 1990 that they should create a new security organization, with no Warsaw pact and no NATO. Not without Russia, nor against Russia, but with Russia – a common security alliance. And against promises that were given during the time of German reunification, the further expansion of NATO towards the east took place so that Russia slowly would become encircled. Then there were missiles stationed in Poland and Czech Republic...the Russian side has said that it reduces its security, but the Western side was not interested in hearing that.
Then, they said that those missiles are not targeting Russia. That's when the Russian foreign minister said to his US counterpart: 'If we install rockets in Mexico, would you trust us if we say it's against Colombia or Cuba, and has nothing to do with the USA?' Of course they would not believe in that, but in spite of that it [missiles installation in Europe] has happened.
Then there were other mistakes. I don't want to go into too many details. George W. Bush has suggested to bring Georgia and Ukraine into NATO. Naturally it was a provocation, even the former American minister of defense said that.
And then it came to the issue of Ukraine, where it came to tensions between two sides – Russia and the EU – when they said: ‘Either you enter into the alliance with us or with the other.’ And nobody has realized that Ukraine should have been a bridge between the EU and Russia, and that is bothering me.
Now there are talks of sanctions against Russia and also against the former Ukrainian president and his staff. And I see it as one sided. Why not also against the oligarchs that supported the opposite side? There is a lot of Ukranian property located in France and other countries, and both sides have contributed to the current situation...
I think, as Russia pointed it out, that sanctions against it are wrong. And I find it wrong alone that they say: 'We need to bring NATO all the way to the borders.’ I see it the other way around...I would go for a diplomatic way to engage Russia and propose to them a new relationship with the EU and NATO, to find a security concept with Russia, not against it or without it. I would expand trade relations, under one condition: that there would be no more countries or parts of them that would be turned into a Russian territory.
But we have to have a positive approach. You can try to reach your goals with sanctions – usually it has not much of an effect – or go positive where we say: ‘We can have much better relationship, but you have to stop, after Crimea, spreading to further parts of Ukraine and turning them into Russia.’
I think that would have been my vision of a positive development that we all urgently need. But as you can see, the situation is the other way around.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 8:03:45 AM | 10
Now let me get this right, Tenyukh was a fascist because he "wanted" to start a war with Russia? Are you really that stupid? You say this as though Ukraine is at peace and the Russian army has NOT invaded and occupied Crimea. And although there is NO evidence to suggest that even with the Russian occupation of Crimea, Tenyukh has been trying to start fighting the Russians, and there is a great deal of evidence that shows that he has been stopping his troops from opening fire, the proof of which is that Ukrainian troops have NOT fired on Russian forces although they have the RIGHT to do so, you consider TENYUKH to be a fascist? But it is quite telling that you don't consider Putin to be a fascist? He is the one who has invaded and occupied a foreign country on the basis of a TOTAL lie (exactly like Hitler), and yet the fascist for you is the guy who has kept his troops from shooting the invading Russians? You are a complete idiot!
PS the Parliament is NOT a "rump" parliament. It is EXACTLY the same as it has been for the last 2 or so years and includes ALL of Yanukovych's Party of Regions parliamentarians.
Posted by: Dave | Mar 25, 2014 8:28:28 AM | 11
‘Revival of anarchy’: Ukraine radicals rob Russia-Moldova train passengers
Nenad BLAGOJEVIC | 25.03.2014 | 10:00
The recent robbing of passengers, traveling from Russia to Moldova via Ukraine’s territory, by a local ultra-nationalist Insurgent Army is a manifestation of “anarchy,” the Russian Foreign Ministry has said.
On March 21, the train, en route from Moscow to the capital of Moldova, Chisinau, made a scheduled stop in the city of Vinnitsa in central Ukraine.
“To the horror of passengers…people dressed in the uniform of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) got into carriages and began a ‘document check’. People who showed Russian passports were then made to hand over their money and golden jewelry,” the Russian Ministry...
Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 25, 2014 9:03:54 AM | 12
SIMFEROPOL, March 24. /ITAR-TASS/. More than 200 Ukrainian migrants come to the Russian Republic of Crimea daily, their overall number has reached several thousand people for whom camps will be decided to create, Crimean First Deputy Prime Minister Rustam Temirgaliev said on Monday.
“Ukrainian citizens cross Crimean-Ukrainian border daily asking for Russian citizenship and wishing to stay to live in Crimea. On average we report more than 200 people daily,” he said.
Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 25, 2014 9:09:14 AM | 14
they will try to create a human face
they will fail
intercine war leading to a civil war seems possible - either way it suits rmpire
Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25, 2014 9:20:06 AM | 15
But such queasiness about being labelled ‘pro-Russia’ has lately been eclipsed by a growing sense among British voters and commentators — increasingly articulated — that the West has gone way beyond its jurisdiction in Ukraine and made a bad situation far worse.
The ‘Crimea crisis’ is the most serious East-West standoff since the USSR collapsed. Even if the worst is now over, this skirmish has changed diplomacy in ways that go beyond the sovereignty of a sun-kissed Black Sea peninsula not much bigger than Wales.
For one thing, the gaping rift between the EU and America stands exposed. The Washington hawks gained almost no traction in western Europe, where there was little appetite for conflict. Even if Russia didn’t supply a third of Europe’s oil and gas, other commercial ties still bind. EU trade with Russia was £280 billion in 2012. America’s total was a twelfth of that, little of it in hydrocarbons. No wonder the hawks have been frustrated that the EU won’t do more.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 10:07:01 AM | 17
Where ever the empire and it's minions, have their dirty little fingers, chaos and misery ensue. I'm paraphrasing, but, that's been said many times, by many folks here, and where Ukraine is concerned, I think it's a big part of their near future. The record of the empire's interventions speaks for itself. The Ukraine and Venezuela right now, many others later.
Posted by: ben | Mar 25, 2014 10:10:54 AM | 18
but mad john bolton still wants to bomb it back to 'the stone age'
in this situation, i always ask, where is john negroponte
Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25, 2014 10:12:00 AM | 19
"Instead of arming the population which faces the threat of Russian incursion, the Ministry of Internal Affairs is attempting to take away from patriots their only weapon – courage."
Yes, having an armed civilian population is very European, as opposed to something one finds in American rural areas or Iraq.
Posted by: Demian | Mar 25, 2014 10:12:37 AM | 20
US now isolated
Russian President Vladimir Putin might be facing Western sanctions and potential suspension from the G8 over his actions in Ukraine, but his allies in the BRICS group are refusing to abandon him.
The five-member bloc of nations – including China, India, Brazil and South Africa as well as Russia itself – met on Monday and announced that it rejected the use of sanctions and “hostile language” in the Ukraine crisis.
The bloc also criticized the suggestion that Russia should be suspended from the G20 summit this year. The summit is scheduled to be held in Brisbane in November, and the Australian government has hinted that Mr. Putin might be banned from attending.
The statement issued by the BRICS foreign ministers on Monday in The Hague makes it clear that the leading nations in the developing world have no appetite for the Western attempts to apply heavy pressure on Moscow over its annexation of Crimea.
While the statement did not specifically mention Russia, its criticism of sanctions was tacitly aimed at the United States, Canada and the European Union, which have imposed sanctions on Russian officials in the wake of the Crimea annexation. It also seemed to refer to Russia’s counter-sanctions against a handful of U.S. officials.
“The escalation of hostile language, sanctions and counter-sanctions, and force does not contribute to a sustainable and peaceful solution, according to international law, including the principles and purposes of the United Nations Charter,” the statement said.
“BRICS countries agreed that the challenges that exist within the regions of the BRICS countries must be addressed within the fold of the United Nations in a calm and level-headed manner.”
On the question of whether sanctions could be imposed to prevent Russia from attending the G20 summit this year, the BRICS statement said it had noted these suggestions “with concern.” It added: “The custodianship of the G20 belongs to all member states equally and no one member state can unilaterally determine its nature and character,” the statement said.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 10:22:29 AM | 21
sorry - here the link but it will soon be all over the media.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 10:23:21 AM | 22
Demian@20 as opposed to something one finds in American rural areas...
Hey! That's me you're talking about there :) I'm well armed, and have a pretty good supply of ammunition. My arms are for defense against what my country has become, though.
Posted by: Jim T | Mar 25, 2014 10:23:31 AM | 23
23) Which is bound to be some poor trespasser who else will show up in US rural countryside :-))
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 10:25:08 AM | 24
Nice to read in a semi-mainstream publication:
Putin is making the West's Cold Warriors look like fools
22 March 2014
... The question remains: why did the West back a group of rock-throwing thugs as they forcefully ousted a Ukrainian president who, while no angel, had been legitimately elected until 2015? Why did we scrap a deal, signed by three EU foreign ministers, to form a ‘government of national unity’? Why is the current Kiev government ‘legitimate’ when its creation was opaque and transgressed Ukraine’s constitution?
Posted by: fairleft | Mar 25, 2014 10:30:41 AM | 25
From Fairleft's link @ 25:
"William Hague was on rather shaky ground when he argued this week that Moscow has chosen ‘the route to isolation’ by recognising Crimea’s referendum. On the contrary, it is the European Union and the United States who look as if they have seriously overplayed their respective hands in Ukraine. Across Asia, Africa and Latin America, the cry of ‘western hypocrisy’ has been heard much louder than complaints about Vladimir Putin."
Thanks for that link Fairleft.
OMG, can it be that some of the world, is coming to their senses? I hope this trend continues.
Posted by: ben | Mar 25, 2014 10:52:35 AM | 26
Further to 25: closing paragraph of linked article:
This Crimea crisis has changed a lot. America and the EU are split, Germany is a new diplomatic powerhouse and Sino-Russian relations are closer, too. Above all, the West’s influence has diminished — by our bull-headed determination to support the upending of Ukrainian democracy and by threatening ‘consequences’ we could never impose, while reinterpreting international laws we ourselves routinely ignore. We stand demeaned and weakened, with far less ability to influence events in the future.
Posted by: Robert Snefjella | Mar 25, 2014 11:00:10 AM | 27
I'm actually in a little village, about five miles outside a city. I have a ball bat for trespassers, the guns are reserved for people in uniform :) I'm actually supposed to be pacifist, I just hide it well.
Posted by: Jim T | Mar 25, 2014 11:00:46 AM | 28
I'm replying to fairleft's response to me on the previous thread, and since he's move on to this one I'll post it here.
I think the biggest "racist criminal operation in modern history" was actually Hitler's empire and murder crusade.
While I agree with you on this; I have already stated repeatedly as to what I consider modern history in my criticism of Zionism. The Nazi WWII era is over! But Zionism and all its injustice is still moving on, therefore I consider it totally disingenuous, unhelpful to eradicating the crime of Zionism and manipulative to continuously harp back to the Holocaust and milk the Holocaust to make Zionism appear the lesser crime and thus diminish the Nakba and on-going crime against Palestinians. Zionism is not over yet; and it's getting progressively worse in its brutality! Just as Jews think it’s anti-Semitic to compare Zionism with Nazism; I think it’s outrageous to try to diminish the crimes of Zionism by milking the Holocaust incessantly!
So when I'm writing about this issue, modern history in the context of Zionism is POST WWII. Why do I do this? Well for one; I don't appreciate at all when people drag the Holocaust in to lessen the crime of Zionism or to mitigate it by explaining that Jews deserved to displace Palestinians from their homeland because they suffered. Sorry, that doesn't fly with me at all!
Next, the other reason I insist on staying in the post-WWII era regarding Zionism, is that idiots like r'g, TomGuard and Copeland love to rub the protocols in my face to silence and demonize me. Well, I won't be silenced with that shitty strategy. You see, I don't care who thought what about Jews then and what Jews thought back. I don't want my argument against Zionism to be mired in that era. That was then and this is now! That strategy of always making Jews appear vulnerable, helpless and hated doesn't fit with what Zionism has become, the immense Power behind it the military nuclear behemoth that sustains it and the incredibly ambitious hegemonic agenda Zionists are trying to impose.
I don't appreciate people cutting my argument at the knees, with the poor-Jew meme. That doesn't fly today one bit today; it’s ridiculous! I read an article in Jewish Media outlet Ynet recently, entitled: How did American Jews get so rich?-- that talks about the rise of Jewish wealth in America. Unfortunately, it too goes into the poor-Jew stereotype, who went from persecution to great wealth, kind of like saying: Oh, but no matter how powerful and rich Jews are; they're still the most vulnerable people on the planet! Oh puhleez! I'm sick to death of that phony argument. That argument is what helps to sustain Zionism. That argument is deceptive and immoral, and it’s a propaganda tool of Zionism and I'll fight it tooth and nail!
I'm linking the article merely as proof but I prefer not to quote Zionist propaganda. The only reason I brought it up is because Jews are allowed to admit they're rich and powerful, but everyone else must pretend they're still the poor, powerless, persecuted Jews from pre-WWII otherwise we're anti-Semitic. This is all Zionist fascist manipulation of the narrative that shields Zionism, the greatest ongoing racist crime since WWII.
To those who understand where I'm coming from, enter at your own risk because this is rife with Zionist propaganda stereotyping: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4099803,00.html
Anyway, I don't want to have to repeat myself ever again. When I'm dealing with Zionism, I don't want to go anywhere pre WWII. I don't want idiots throwing the Holocaust, the protocols and the poor oppressed Jew in my face to sink my valid argument against Zionism. These are the arguments Zionism feeds on and r'g, TG, and Copeland use to suffocate HONEST discussion on Zionism. And honestly, Zionism has immense power and wealth behind it and that wealth and power are being used for the immoral purpose of perpetuating Zionism; a criminal operation in every sense.
I don't want to have to repeat this:
I don't appreciate being manipulated and condescended, so fair warning to everyone concerned; don't milk the Holocaust, the poor, persecuted Jew or the protocols to get an edge on my argument against Zionism EVER!
I'll give this one a pass, because maybe you didn't know I don't operate in the pre-WWII era. The next time someone does this to me; I'll eviscerate their every word and rightly assume that the individual is a propagandist for Zionism, ie hasbarist.
Posted by: kalithea | Mar 25, 2014 11:02:00 AM | 29
It is the US, not Russia, that is isolated. America has hollowed out its manufacturing industry with its "free market" policies, and it is across oceans from today's manufacturing centers, Europe and Asia. Russia is in the middle of them.
Todd notes some disturbing American trends, such as rising stratification based on educational credentials, and the "obsolescence of unreformable political institutions." Increasingly, the rest of the world is producing so that America can consume.
Todd argues the risk to the United States is that its clumsy tactics could backfire by provoking a geostrategic realignment and alliance in Europe and Asia. In the future the real power will rest with Europe. Todd suggests that Eurasia possesses the majority of global wealth and is able to work with other countries because it shares a universalist ethic that respects the rest of the world, including Arab and Muslim countries. Europe will evolve into a united force and its protected industrial base will allow it to rapidly reestablish its military might. Over time, Europe's and Russia's cultural friendship will strengthen and the Cold War-era ties which bind the United States together with Europe will be severed because of the vast divide separating "European and American civilizations," which Todd calls "the emancipation of Europe". If Europe, Russia and Japan draw closer as a result of the "drunken sailor" United States, then Washington will have achieved exactly the opposite of what it sought.
Europe still needs to figure out that Todd was right. (His argument just needs to be updated, with China substituted for Japan.)
American policy makers and pundits are worried. I saw one op-ed refer to the United States as a "European power". And the current conflict between Russia and "the West" is framed as Europe vs. Russia, as if Russia is not part of Europe.
Posted by: Demian | Mar 25, 2014 11:05:21 AM | 30
dear dear me, that didn't take long
Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25, 2014 11:05:49 AM | 31
28 arggh "people in uniform" are people like you and me ... just talk to them.
Have you got a dog? Does it attack the mailman :-))
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 11:07:45 AM | 32
What happens after the "Night of the Long Knives"? Does the empire try to label the rest as "moderates"? I doubt Russia will tolerate a token clean up of these neo-nazis.
Posted by: par4 | Mar 25, 2014 11:20:11 AM | 33
@kalithea, Pragma et al -
could you please stop the ranting about zionism. We had enough of that on the other threat. Please keep to the topic.
@Dave Tenyukh was a fascist because he "wanted" to start a war with Russia?
Tenyukh is a fascist as he belongs to the fascist Svoboda party.
Tenyukh ordered his troops in Crimea to fire on the Russians. They didn't want to start a war for him so they did not do it.
there is a great deal of evidence that shows that he has been stopping his troops from opening fire
Except that he himself said that he ordered them to open fire. He found it "regrettable" that they did not do so.
the Parliament is NOT a "rump" parliament. It is EXACTLY the same as it has been for the last 2 or so years and includes ALL of Yanukovych's Party of Regions parliamentarians.
No communist a majority of the party of region parliamentarians no longer take part in the Rada. They have been threatened with violence and some of them have been beaten right in front of the parliament. The Estonian foreign minister even mentioned that in his phone call with Ashton.
Out of 450 seats in the parliament some 340 people still attend. (Just look at the recent vote tallies.) The others are gone. That is what I call a rump parliament.
You are what I call either dumb or a lazy propagandist.
Posted by: b | Mar 25, 2014 11:28:18 AM | 34
'"people in uniform" are people like you and me'
The police of my acquaintance are a different species.
Posted by: ruralito | Mar 25, 2014 11:32:38 AM | 35
David Orloff makes an interesting prediction: there will be no elections.
And the reason there will be no election is that if the election were held today, the people in power would get maybe 5% of the popular vote.
Posted by: Demian | Mar 25, 2014 11:37:32 AM | 36
Posted by: ruralito | Mar 25, 2014 11:32:38 AM | 35
well if you take off the clothes .... :-))
anyway can't find the BRIC statement in the Western Main Stream Media - a statement by Brazil, Russia, India and China ie more than half of the world ...
do they intend to inform us?
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 11:38:40 AM | 37
if the putsch 'loses' its fascist face - which i can't see how they can succesfully do that - do you see a slowing down of the movements for refernda in the south & east
it seems to me empire get what it wants either way - a puppet state or a failed state - for some time now it seems to prefer failed states though that would righten the europeans, especially the germans
Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25, 2014 11:39:31 AM | 38
37) On a more serious note - I can understand US police being as brutal as they are (believe me they are not that trigger happy in Europe), when they expect to find guns in every househould or car.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 11:41:16 AM | 39
I was pretty sure (as well as many here) from the beginning, that the "useful idiots" of the fascist organizations would be kept away from real influence. I'm surprised that it's actually happening so soon. I guess that the militant fascists have been working hard to settle in official government positions and trying to get their people in positions, too, so maybe it's urgent to remove them now, before you really just can't remove them that easily anymore.
If the economic situation will deteriorate as one might expect, mass support for every "anti-oligarch, anti-iwf" movement will surely grow, so you better watch that no minister or representative will openly speak out against the austerity-dictate.
I've lived with a guy from Lviv, who, as I now realize, is exactly from that greek-catholic background (hell, I was a student then, and most of his friends were also in that vein - I remember a georgian guy who used to fire shots in the air when drunk! I really wonder whether that bunch hasn't been some kind of training or instruction group for future purposes) for some years and he used to come up with some anecdotes about ukrainian corruption.
After all, the ones who can be willingly bought and corrupted will find their place in the national guard (by far the most) as long as they care more about an income than fighting oligarchs. The rest will vanish over the course of the next months, that's what I expect.
But, didn't the fascists expect that, too? Don't they feel like they're the real "boots on the ground" in western Ukraine? How many can be bought and how many are hardcore fascists who will fight even in the face of defeat?
Posted by: peter radiator | Mar 25, 2014 11:48:30 AM | 40
One more thing, the dragging of "zionist" "discussions" into each and every thread ("I continue my zusa discussion from the last thread in this one" etc.), imho, is quite obvious trolling.
Posted by: peter radiator | Mar 25, 2014 11:50:07 AM | 41
what has been happening with nato's russian escape route
Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25, 2014 11:52:29 AM | 42
pardon, escape toute in afghanistan
Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25, 2014 11:56:13 AM | 43
Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25, 2014 11:39:31 AM | 38
I am pretty sure there is Russian, Ukrainian and European security cooperation.
Taking out the leadership of Pravy Sector will be part of it.
Basically, US Neocons et al had planned the integration of Russia into "their" system. Russia has just stood up from a backward roll.
It is called Judo.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 11:56:53 AM | 44
b @ 34: "@kalithea, Pragma et al -
"could you please stop the ranting about zionism. We had enough of that on the other threat. Please keep to the topic."
Guess that needed to be said b.
Both aforementioned posters are both articulate and good writers, and I enjoy reading SOME of their posts. But, they must realize that the majority of folks here fully realize Israel's criminal acts. Their constant harping on the subject, no matter what the thread, detracts from the credibility of this site.
Posted by: ben | Mar 25, 2014 11:58:32 AM | 45
Whoever did this, it is great news. I believe i predicted his death, not that that's important. But i am very, very pleased. We'll see no more videos of that asshole and his Oakland Raiders cap.
Posted by: guest77 | Mar 25, 2014 12:01:59 PM | 46
There never was "the right sector" in ukraine. There were diverse groups, many of which were hardly more than a handful of people and many were purely regional players and most of members were youngsters.
Some of these groups were anti-Russian, some anti-Wezt, some anit-semite and pretty all of them were merely "nationalist" in that they saw - and very often personally experienced - ukraine being rotting away and being plundered by diverse interests groups, mainly the oligarch-politician mafia. Their goal wasn't really an anti-whatever ukraine but a ukraine in which one could make a living and have some basic justice; seeing that this was not achievable an enemy was need. And that's where the splitting in many groups occured because there were many perceptions of the enemy. Some rather pragmatic ("the pro western politicians"), some more conspirational ("the jews"), and almost all usually "decided" basically by some local leader who again, being oriented at one or the other higher level group or "hero", passed on whatever the "wisdom" he was told or happened to believe in said.
Of course, the usual "laws" of the workings at the social and intellectual periphery held true. Like "The worse the situation the more extreme the views".
Similarly there were no demonstrations against yanukovich in particular and certainly not demonstrations for any other candidate. What the ukrainians, those that *really* demonstrated rather than being payed to be there, actually wanted wasn't yanukovich; it was was he represented, he just happened to be the current face of the "peoples enemy".
What they wanted was pretty much what the "right sector" wanted, too, the main difference being that the peaceful demonstrators still believed in the feasability within a democratic system and importantly without executions or extreme measures, while the "right sector" had lost any trust in the system and even democracy (at least ukraine style) and wanted a) a revolution b) heads rolling c) "real power" to "clean up".
If joining zeu had any role at all on maidan then simply and very naively in that it was seen as a symbol of a lawful and prosperous (haha) state and as a power so big that even the oligarchs couldn't simply ignore it or play with it.
And if Russophobia had any role than mostly simply because Russia was the next best "enemy" and because the eastern Regions usually were somewhat better off than the western and central ones and, that's important, because Russia was seen as the current incarnation of the evil Sovjets (never mind that there were no ukraine at all without the Sovjets) who, seen from a desperate nationalistic perspective, were the evil guys who plundered ukraine and held it down etc. Which btw. also explains the feeling of some nazis that robbing Russians is merely "taking back".
And indeed the Sowjets created somewhat of a Frankenstein with some pieces from here, some tacked on from there and yet others from, say, what poland understood as theirs, the funny thing being that the Sowjets intention was not a bad one in "padding" an ancient Rus region; chrustchevs giving away Crimea as a present wasn't that singular and out of the conventional as many Russians would like to think, at least it was in line of former Sovjet attitude and behaviour.
I write this as it's not as simple as Russia und ukraine are two countries and possibly even enemies. When Putin says that Russia always and still considers ukraine a very special neighbour that that's true and merely reflecting a path that was common in may regards; actually many ethnic Russians in eastern ukraine considered themselves Russians who happened to fall on the wrong side of a border that shouldn't be there in the first place.
During maidan and widely due to immense amounts of propaganda and foreign money and quite some behind the scenes "management" mainly by foreign payed agents, some kind of superficial unity created what could be perceived - and used - as "the right sector". But, make no mistake, this temporary "unity" very quickly deteriorated when the snipers in kiev shot and when it became more and more obvious and undeniable that the "peoples heroes" klitchko, jaz, et al. were undeniably payed for and managed assets by the wezt.
Maybe it was planned for from the beginning, maybe the dynamics surprised the foreign managers but now the "right sector" has to be cleaned out of the landscape at least to a degree of allowing the impression that "good democrats" are in control and not nazi gangsters. As first of all Germanies merkel is at danger every day someone can rightfully accuse her of having sponsored nazis, it seems credible and reasonable to assume, as some do, that timochenko was involved in the sacha white execution; after all timochenko has some experience in ordering murders and she owes very much to merkel.
But while being a highly visible cleaning action that murder will not be the last but rather the beginning of a wave. And it won't be "right sector" only. The nazi politicians have, probably not unknowingly, managed that thousands of weapons and lots of ammo haven fallen into the hands of very wrong people and not all of them will limit themselves to robbing trains, houses, or cars.
Will zusa and their criminal puppets bring in weztern mercenaries? If they don't have to pay them, at least not now, yes, quite probably. If you are hated by the people and you don't want to give up power, you need fighters, simple as that and each and every zusa and zeu politician will confirm that, albeit not publicly and somewhat euphemized and preferring the term "police". The game is the same, namely, to suppress and to keep down the people while they are robbed, raped, abused, and otherwise ignored.
What will Putin do? Well, except for certain red lines, he quite probably will stand by officially while making sure that the militias in the eastern regions have enough weapons and training. It is important to understand that Putin had no interest in ukraine, except for it more or less at least not getting worse; what he did was done in a situation the wezt created. His "main directive" was and is to make Russia stronger and even more invincible and to oppose zusas unilateral gambling casino and wanton murder world, in a large part by building up, growing and cementing BRICS. As far as ukraine is concerned Putin will insist any make unconditionally sure that the eastern and southern regions are not endangered or harmed and that ukraine stays non-zato; the latter not because he fears zato (he certainly doesn't and now even less) but to stand against zusas unilateral concept. As I said many times, Putin is not *against* zusa, he doesn't want to destroy it, he even envisions it as a partner, but he wants and *will make* it to be one power next to others and certainly not above any other power.
To understand this is also helpful in understanding his stance on ukraine. Even *if* he wanted a part of ukraine (he doesn't) or some saying in ukraine (he has it anyway) he would still stand by as long as the red lines aren't crossed simply because he is maing far higher and in the coming multipolar world ukraine will anyway be in Russias sphere (where its belongs anyway) and zusa will anyway be next to insignificant in Europe and zeu will anyway have broken and possibly been replaced by some healthier union of states.
The way I see it, there is basically only one important open question concerning ukraine namely "Will the wezt and their regime in kiev be smart and potent enough (inside ukraine) to create a situation that allows ukraine to stay intact (territory, state) or will the southern and eastern regions break away and create a new state which will have full Russian support once it's created?". If it's the former there will be some conditiones sine qua non like timochenko *not* in any power position or even just near to one, at least the southern and eastern regions (and possibly all) having a high degree of autonomy, a constitution that nails down the basis for a viable state and zato membership excluded for eternity, police and particularly military sworn in to loyalty to the constituation (and *not* to any president or other politician) and some more.
Putin, I think, will play as small a role in that theater, as reasonably possible. He will be seen being concentrated to give the last stabs needed to bring zusa as unilateral word superpower to fall, *not* zusa the country and its people, but the ugly unilateral system embodied, run and controlled by zusa. Theaters that come to mind are Iran, zus$, swift and payment systems.
As far as israel is concerned I see a seemingly small but important role in the zusa controlled system (so, at least it looks at the outside) and accordingly profound changes (to use as neutral a term as possible) but I do not wish to elaborate on that.
Btw. I see the current political shift in France as a) related to the cleaning up frenzy in ukraine b) not any more containable but actually spreading. I expect the may zeu elections to clearly signal that zeu, in particular the zeuro are terminally ill constructs although, no doubt, the system will fight its demise.
And with a little luck we will see more merkel related "leaks" to make that bitch either leave/fall or profoundly change her attitude (which I'm not sure she's capable of).
Last but not least I hope (and actually expect) to see the *real* nazis in ukraine, those that are set to see jewish and/or Russian blood flow, taken care of; as far as I'm concerned "taking care of" in that case includes execution as an acceptable means.
Ceterum censeo israel americanamque vehementer delenda esse!
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 25, 2014 12:08:45 PM | 47
- Interesting and very telling that you seem to feel that r'giaps (in particular but others, too) relentless *personal attacks* and chopping up threads with their hate crusade are not disturbing or worthy some reigning in.
That makes it pretty hard to see you as an unbiased host.
For me that means that they have carte blanche and are therefore not to be considered participants and to be completely ignored (although I'm certain that they *will* continue their smearing which you so obviously tolerate).
For my part I can keep the zionist matter out to a degree and I'm willing to but I will certainly *not* stupidly and bluntly ignore it where it *obviously* plays a major role. I'm willing to be fair and to stick to - even unfair and biased - rules but I'm not a whore nor a servant to certain credos or interests.
- Whatever the tally in the rada says is meaningless because a) many deputees have been frightened, threatened and blackmailed and b) many voting cards have been stolen and there is no rule of law in the rada i.e. cases of double and triple voting are not just ignored but actually counted.
NOTHING "decided" in that ridiculous horrorfarm has any validity whatsoever.
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 25, 2014 12:20:22 PM | 48
"...We'll see no more videos of that asshole and his Oakland Raiders cap."
Exactly, only the fascists who 'embarrass' the coup govt will be eliminated. The rest will end up in the national guard or military.
Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 25, 2014 12:23:38 PM | 49
"...when they expect to find guns in every househould or car" and impunity in every courtroom.
Posted by: ruralito | Mar 25, 2014 12:26:06 PM | 50
Oh and just btw.
Unlike r'giap and other untouchables I usually *do* actually write on the matter - just as I did here.
But oh well, if personal hate crusades are OK for b ...
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 25, 2014 12:28:08 PM | 51
changed your tune
but still the same song
there is indeed a right sector & a svboda & they are not a collection of unemployed youth - they are an ideologically committed & trained group pf people, this has been cultured in western ukraine & the deïfication of stepan bandera is no accident, it is a rallying point
there are sufficient in their cadre to turn their cadre to take part in 'parliamentary politics' - a little like john gotti he liked to see his own image so there would be several amongst his number, who would have liked to see him disappear, they are also corrupt as hell & i imagine their minds are on imagined riches
the commitment & the corruption are not mutually exclusive in this case - bandera mixed mass murder with organised banditry
Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25, 2014 12:31:20 PM | 52
Jim T #28
If it's gov't thugs you're worried about, there are more of them and they've got better arms. Why waste the ammo? The usual excuse, otoh, is "home invasion", presumably by inner-city folks driving a great distance through more-than-likely hostile territory to snarf up, what, a big-screen teevee? I really don't get that mind-set.
Posted by: Nora | Mar 25, 2014 12:32:37 PM | 53
"Vse and another Rivne website, ChaRivne, said that townspeople believed that Muzychko had been gunned down by a "Russian subversive group."
I was wondering how the "Russians did it" propaganda would be slipped in on this site to give it an "air of respectability" for later exploitation. It's a familiar pattern.
Posted by: scalawag | Mar 25, 2014 12:36:40 PM | 54
ZUSA seems to be very good at creating failed states. Why would it be that hard to achieve the same in the Ukraine? Blow up utilities, snipe both sides, you know the drill. Poison water supplies and destroy the Eastern industries. That kind of thing.
You make it sound like Putin can ignore all this and militias in the Eastern Ukraine will be able to hold things together. The US has spent tens of billions on the Ukraine; surely they can fund another few to destroy it.
By the way, a promise to not join NATO for eternity is worth as much as a promise to not move NATO into Eastern Europe. They can't help it; it's what they are.
Posted by: Ozawa | Mar 25, 2014 12:41:01 PM | 55
fear was an important too to control the maidan & now it needs to be concealed but like the takfiris they seem attached to videoing themselves so i presume they will keep on shooting themselves in the foot
needing for the 'elections' to seem hal authentic - the fear must be made to disappear, but it won't
Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25, 2014 12:41:06 PM | 56
b - thanks for the post. "Removing them now may be an attempt to clean the image of the putschists." i get the impression that the amount of dirt overhanging ukraine, it is going to be very hard to scrub it clean..
@31 - lol. true that.. fortunately b has now chimed in. these folks don't know how to stop..
@12 - okie farmer. i see we both posted that on a few different threads. it is a concern and goes along with the different videos i have been seeing of armed men at local town hall type meetings.. what is that if not a form of intimidation meant to encourage a particular direction in public talks? ukraine has a problem and i don't think it started just the other day. can you imagine a town hall type meeting in the usa or canada where men in army fatigue oversee the meeting?
is bevin ever coming back?
Posted by: james | Mar 25, 2014 12:42:48 PM | 57
Check out Samir Amin's article on the MRZine site, probably the most succinct summation of the Empire's plans/objectives re Russia/Ukraine et al:
3. The current development of the Ukraine tragedy illustrates the reality of the strategic target of the Triad.
The Triad organized in Kiev what ought to be called a “Euro/Nazi putsch.” To achieve their target (separating the historical twin sister nations — the Russian and the Ukrainian), they needed the support of local Nazis.
The rhetoric of the Western medias, claiming that the policies of the Triad aim at promoting democracy, is simply a lie. Nowhere has the Triad promoted democracy. On the contrary these policies have systematically been supporting the most anti-democratic (in some cases “fascist”) local forces. Quasi-fascist in the former Yugoslavia — in Croatia and Kosovo — as well as in the Baltic states and Eastern Europe, Hungary for instance. Eastern Europe has been “integrated” in the European Union not as equal partners, but as “semi-colonies” of major Western and Central European capitalist/imperialist powers. The relation between West and East in the European system is in some degree similar to that which rules the relations between the US and Latin America! In the countries of the South the Triad supported the extreme anti-democratic forces such as, for instance, ultra-reactionary political Islam and, with their complicity, has destroyed societies; the cases of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Libya illustrate these targets of the Triad imperialist project.
4. Therefore the policy of Russia (as developed by the administration of Putin) to resist the project of colonization of Ukraine (and of other countries of the former Soviet Union, in Transcaucasia and Central Asia) must be supported. The Baltic states’ experience should not be repeated. The target of constructing a “Eurasian” community, independent from the Triad and its subordinate European partners, is also to be supported.
But this positive Russian “international policy” is bound to fail if it is not supported by the Russian people. And this support cannot be won on the exclusive basis of “nationalism,” even a positive progressive — not chauvinistic — brand of “nationalism,” a fortiori not by a “chauvinistic” Russian rhetoric. Fascism in Ukraine cannot be challenged by Russian fascism. The support can be won only if the internal economic and social policy pursued promotes the interests of the majority of the working people. - 'Russia and the Ukraine Crisis: The Eurasian Project in Conflict with the Triad Imperialist Policies By Samir Amin'
As ever Amin, hits the spot!
Posted by: William Bowles | Mar 25, 2014 12:45:10 PM | 58
Posted by: ruralito | Mar 25, 2014 12:26:06 PM | 50
Forgot the last part, it is related.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 12:48:25 PM | 59
Ozawa, I don't think the West wants a failed state Ukraine, what they want is a subservient Ukraine, crippled economically, dependent on IMF etc, but willing to serve the evil empire. Of course if their intentions don't happen, and they have to leave Ukraine (to the Russians for example) they will try to leave it "failed".
Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 25, 2014 12:50:45 PM | 60
You have been told to stop ranting many times by B now, it is hes blog, stop posting here or follow the rules.
Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 25, 2014 12:53:55 PM | 61
60) They want regime change in Russia to get full access to Russia's markets and resources.
This here is Putin's Munich Speech 2007 on international Security
They want the unipolar not the multipolar world.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 12:54:28 PM | 62
Yes. It's happened here already, maybe without the matching fatigues, at various Congressional Town Hall meetings and also in support of a nasty nutcake sheriff in some small town in Pennsylvania.
Posted by: Nora | Mar 25, 2014 12:56:27 PM | 63
Your utterings have the same weight as those of jaz or sasha white, i.e. those of people with a carte blanche by the power to be with the other side handcuffed.
Enjoy and think what's next. Will b ban me for not holding still while you abuse your carte blanche in your personal hate crusade? Frankly, I do not even care. If b is willing to go so far and to make his bias so obvious (with all the consequences that brings with it ...) I'll leave without so much as a complaint. And rest assured that I'm not one of those who return with a new name.
You uttered so much about the worth of MoA and the value of b's work. Yet - and as expected - you shit on it as soon as your personal hate crusade asks for some more chopping up the discussion and hate smearings.
Go ahead, use your - very unwisely handed out - carte blanche and smear me some more up to the point where you finally succeed in driving b to make me leave. I will find another place and I will certainly find readers, even from here but MoA will be marked as biased and such brutally minimized in credibility and weight.
If you *really* care about b's work that you value oh so much (talking is cheap) and MoA you will refrain from your relentless smearing and hate crusading and just quietly enjoy the grossly undeserved weight b attributed to you and the limitations imposed on me.
I *did* accept b's ruling, albeit with a warning comment. But I clearly indicated my acceptance of his ruling. BECAUSE I REALLY VALUE MoA.
Let's see whether you are just uttering empty blabla or whether you are really capable of some self control and loyalty to MoA.
In case you didn't get it: You are far away from the level of intelligence needed to mute me other than by shooting me or, as you worded it, by sending me to valhalla (So much for you not being a nazi, haha).
So I advise you to do the next best and possibly even reachable thing, to let go your hate crusade and to not vainly bla bla bla about MoAs high value bla bla but actually contributing to it by concentrating on the *matter* rather than on persons.
You are at an advantage. Unlike me who got reprimanded, you got carte blanche. Will that be sufficient to finally act constructively or will you actually need your opponents in valhalla, dead, before your MoA so valuable blabbering can gain any content whatsoever?
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 25, 2014 12:57:55 PM | 64
okie farmer #60
Do you think the US really cares whether Ukraine is a failed state as long as it is subservient? Our wheat and gas/oil prices only go up if Ukraine's resources are unavailable, and the welfare of people living in a place we've identified as "of interest" has never much mattered. I don't think we've ever given it a moment's notice.
Posted by: Nora | Mar 25, 2014 1:03:05 PM | 65
BRIC statement supporting Putin still has not made it into main stream media. Must be against their knowledge of geography. It is just more than half of the world - could be called international community actually.
No, Ukraine will not be a failed state. Though neocons love "New Europe" and think they can exploit their historic mistrust of Russia, Ukrainian fascists have a bad name in all the neighboring countries. An no, Ukrainian is not spoken in Poland, Slovakia, Romania, Hungary.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 1:07:56 PM | 66
It's your blog, and I respect that. I have to say you have a knack for timely Freudian slips i.e. threat should be thread.
I just happen to believe that Zionism is the biggest threat to world peace and stability today and is totally underestimated, but maybe that's what makes me the threat here in taking the discussion to a level that people still don't see or get. I firmly this empire-building through regime change is Zionist-propelled.
I also believe that in order to challenge the fatally-conceived global initiative we're witnessing one must attack it its immoral foundation and the rest of the edifice will then tumble.
What's happening on the ground in these ongoing proxy wars destined to take down Iran and Russia, the major obstacles to fully achieving the hegemonic goal, is also an important basis for establishing the day to day deception and moral outrage, ie the injustice, but along with that is needed a discussion on identifying the ideology driving this global strategy and attacking it on that level as well.
I don't want to diminish what you do here in any way, but maybe there should be two running discussions, one fighting the day to day battles in the successive regime change interventions and the other fighting the ideology and propaganda driving this immoral policy. Identifying the ideology and it's ultimate ambitions and tackling it in that sense like, for example, the Kaplan thread challenged everyone to do.
There are two battles being fought in these proxy wars: one: the every day battle with events on the ground with truth as the first casualty, and two: the ideological battle that challenges the authenticity of the false motives for this global initiative: "democracy, freedom, liberty and prosperity for all".
When we focus only on the day to day, the task of desconstructing the ideology driving this and the intentions of the players gets lost in between the volume of the facts in the daily discussion on occurring events. These threads are the daily battles for truth.
It's my opinion that in order to win the war, we must never loose sight of the ideology driving this disastrous quest for hegemony and chisel away at it until the whole structure collapses.
IMHO it's not enough to discuss the day to day and attack the day to day; although very important.
I guess what I mean is, you need a mix of threads: the Counterpunch that deconstructs the driving ideology and the day to day events which is what is discussed here, except for the Kaplan thread which was a challenge to deconstruct supremacist ideology.
Anyway, I hope you get what I'm driving at: My belief is that by defeating Zionism, by chiseling away at it; the dominoes sustaining this fatally flawed global foreign policy will tumble successively and will lead to victory for those of us who value peace and live and let live allowing people the freedom to evolve their societies at their pace respecting their culture.
Maybe my strengths are more oriented towards challenging the the ideology driving this global realignement.
So I should move on and take my ideas elsewhere as my goal is not to disrupt but to enlighten.
But before I do, I'm saddened that Mr. Pragma is so misunderstood. His views are insightful, his quirky "ziozism" expressions very punctual and his expression laced with sarcastic humor a breath of fresh air in such dismal circumstances. Hopefully, I'll get to read him somewhere. Sorry, to disappoint his foes, but he’s needed in the trenches fighting Zionism as much as his value matters here.
Thank-you for having allowed me to plant a seed I hope leads somewhere. Adieu or in your case: Auf Wiedersehen.
(I'm sure r'giap, TomGuard, fairleft and Copeland will be thrilled to know that Zionism triumphed one more time. Hopefully, their smugness will be short-lived, because I will go on fighting it in every way I can; everywhere I can until it falls.)
Posted by: kalithea | Mar 25, 2014 1:10:37 PM | 67
Theoretically yes. Practically, however, they are extremely limited in what they can achieve against eastern ukraine. With Russia mere kilometers away, eastern ukraine is secure to a very large degree.
As for the militia vs mercenaries aspect one must see that the militia isn't simply comprised by some well-intentioned farmers and workers. Just remember the utter failure of the general mobilisation efforts of the regime. In other words, there is, among others, a very considerable reservoir of professional soldiers and even special forces to draw from for the milita.
Additionally the regime has a problem. While they can bring in mercenaries the number of those must be rather limited unless they want to risk being seen in flagranti. Similarly, each and every mercenary is, when caught, also a witness and evidence against the system.
So, even if only the upper ranks of militia were comprised of professionals, the mercenaries would need really large numbers to achieve more than an occasional and limited hit.
As for zato, you are, of course, right. But Russia doesn't need eternity. The issue is one of visibility and credibility. When the original agreements were made (incl. the provision that zato shall not expand into former GUS states) next to nobody noticed it in the general population so it was easy to ignore those agreements.
This time, however, such a rule would be highly visible and Russia would gain either way. If zato stuck to the ruke, that's be good for Russia. If zato broke the rule again, it would also be good for Russia who is using truth and demasking the weztern regimes as major weapons.
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 25, 2014 1:12:41 PM | 68
We've all seen how well talk works with the kind of monsters who have spread carnage in Iraq/Libya/Syria/Ukraine. Sure I may be outmatched by the US military (posse comitatus not withstanding) but anyone thinking they can invade my home or property will pay dearly for that assumption. It's mostly cornfields and pasture between me and the next 'big' city, full of people as poor as me.
Exactly! 'Somebody' hasn't been paying attention, apparently. The militarization of the police forces here in the US is a major concern for most thinking people I follow on the web, and it's not even hidden.
Posted by: Jim T | Mar 25, 2014 1:14:47 PM | 69
Posted by: kalithea | Mar 25, 2014 1:10:37 PM | 67
"I just happen to believe" is correct.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 1:15:25 PM | 70
Oh and I forget to mention "somebody" in the gang who help Zionism commit its crimes and move forward its hegemonic quest one more day.
Posted by: kalithea | Mar 25, 2014 1:19:48 PM | 71
this is the only time i will speak of it. i simply do not take you seriously at all. on every matter
if you know anything about moon & bover the years, we have differed on many issues & i doubt b gives anyone carte blanche, but i have witnessed his tolerance before people who do nothing but besmirch the work he does until they go too far, & you have gone too far, you have turned every thread into a one subject thesis, you have not only febased b's arguments but those of other people - i can handle myself
if you really made some reflection on what you have done, long before i started to write again here, i have always remained a reader - & it is not brownnosing to say that b is ahead of a lot of people, & when the real sources of information dry up - it is b who offers clearer ways of seeinf anything. i am the polemicist & the fault with that lies with me - b is not a polemicis, he offers analysis & i dare you to find his analysis wrong on the important points
reflect on what you have done here & you will have more than half the answer to the rebuke & that is all you got, me i would ban you as people had to be banned during the iranian elections simply the interventions by people or institutions that care nothing for this blog or intent on harming it made it difficult to read & that moment if i rememver correctly b stopped comments & it was wise
he also has a life & it can be no joy to read the same material over & over again - he has always maintained a multiplicity of voices, & fro people to speak of multiplicity, to not come with the same baton to beat us around the head with it over & over again
by b's politeness, it is you who has handcuffed people here. i hope bevin returns, he is a valuable voice as are debs & copeland - & again there is not a monolithic view - indeed it is b who has carried the burden of interference
that is all i will say on the matter, people who h been here for a long time know the reality of what i am saying even if they personally disagree with my position generally
i remain a maoist & it is not everybody's cup of tea
that is all
Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25, 2014 1:20:03 PM | 72
Last we heard of Negroponte, he was squeezing his blackheads.And as far as Libya,who is using whom?
And Gorby set in motion the collapse of the USSR,so
I imagine all those Russians who had to live with the collapse might blame him ,at least just a little.And yeah,4 traitors are going to Las Vegas to receive the Zionist mobsters dough.You couldn't make this stuff up.Where is the outrage from the populace?
Posted by: dahoit | Mar 25, 2014 1:22:25 PM | 73
"I can understand US police being as brutal as they are (believe me they are not that trigger happy in Europe), when they expect to find guns in every household or car."
What is missing from that assertion is the fact that these expectations are being driven from the top down. Here in the artist/tourist town where I live even the USForest service has gotten into the act, donning flak jackets and with guns drawn looking for ways to intimidate citizens, looking for "cracked windshields, opening fire on a van driven by a women full of children because she "wouldn't stop" (after they smashed her window with a baton), and most recently killing a mental unstable homeless man so brutally that it made Democracy Now this morning.
Police are TOLD that the public is dangerous, and the financial incentive is for cities to accept funding to militarize the police departments, hiring people with violent backgrounds, and to "shoot first, ask questions later".
New police training puts fewer limits on use of force
Posted by: erichwwk | Mar 25, 2014 1:23:46 PM | 74
And does Adelson remind one of Baron Harkonnen(sic) from Dune or what?The evil within extrudes out.
Posted by: dahoit | Mar 25, 2014 1:24:22 PM | 75
b has carried the burden of this blog since the beginning on every aspect, he has attracted rare voices, some who disagree with him but he does not need a lesson kalithea on how to run this site, really, you have a lot of gall
anybody who has been here at moon since the whiskey bar knows exactly how much b has done
we do not share the same opinion bur i would be blind without the help of him & the other 'real' voices
in fact because sickness has not permitted me to write here as often as i like i do not think it is my plae, to defend what is self evident, those who have written really in recent years have the duty to speak up, not that b needs the confirmation, but to give an idea why the clarity of this site has attracted many people & is cited all over the place
i have made my position clear
Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25, 2014 1:30:50 PM | 76
"I just happen to believe" is correct.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 1:15:25 PM | 70
Oh by the by, fyi, I was recently quoted by Mike Whitney at Counterpunch.
So yeah! Somebody who's really a somebody in the blogosphere seems to believe what "I just happen to believe".
Posted by: kalithea | Mar 25, 2014 1:33:03 PM | 77
Move on as b said.
(also anyone could write in Counterpunch, dont make it such a big deal).
Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 25, 2014 1:38:11 PM | 78
me, i think you are just goons
but all b has demanded of you - is to stay on subject
Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25, 2014 1:38:25 PM | 79
Don't you leave so quickly!
First, b didn't say "leave!", he merely demanded us to somewhat limit our fight against zionism. Reprimanding us for bringing up zionism as the evil it is, is even deserved any justified.
Let's be honest, we *did* sin. We did it with the best intentions and sometimes we did it to fight off zionist attempts to ridicule or even mute us - but we did it and someone with a more neutral perspective like b was right in considering our engagement to be too much. Similarly, if we are honest, we should confess that we sometimes focussed to much on the zionist aspects of matters and ignored other aspects somewhat. Again that was done without the slightest evil intention but, yes, we did it.
Also, no matter how heated the battle, we should do our best to stay fair and to look with just and differentiating eyes. Such I can't but recognize - and value - that b didn't shout "shut up!" but he politely asked us to limit our focus and elaboration on zionist aspects and he even said "Please".
That has been just, polite and reasonable by b. I can't see, where you mean to see a "leave!".
The provoking part is in *not* reprimanding and calling to order r'giap (who, of course, immediately took use of that opportunity). But while that necessitated, so I felt, a warning hint to b, I can perfectly well forgive b, simply because r'giap being here for so long a time and actually having written many valuable contributions formertimes, b probably got somewhat "good ol'times" emotionally attached and even somewhat shortsighted but by no means evil or aggressive against you or myself.
So, cool down, kalithea, and let us, who, unlike some emptily and cheaply farting hate crusader, see the positive intention in b's demand and let us continue to contribute and let us do our best to somewhat downsize our pointing out the evilness of zionism. Probably those who mentioned that zionism is known well enough for its evil core and role, are right and you and I sometimes, indeed act like journalists who still beat on a criminal who is already widely known to be criminal.
And don't you worry about certain agents here relentlessly trying to paint me as an anti-semite! Everyone with an eye or two and basic reading capabilities can very easily see again and again that those smearing are just that, evil minded smearings lacking any basis.
Last but not least, let us keep in mind that b, indeed, did a lot to deserve some trust, incl even the trust that he might be right in somewhat calling you and myself to order.
The order of the hour is not to leave, it is to contribute and to keep the idea behind MoA in mind. Let's have a cup of tea, cool down, and then constructively and matter of factly go on, shall we ;)
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 25, 2014 1:38:54 PM | 80
I'm only going to defend myself from stupidity and then move on.
No doubt that b doesn't need a lesson from me. I once witnessed him sparring with Silverstein over at his blog, which I have since left in the dust, and he is a formidable debater; I was 100% in his corner on the sidelines.
You seem to misinterpret a whole lot. There's a difference between what I did, make a suggestion and what you say I did.
You seem to think everything is engraved into stone and that's it; it's not budging from there. You're extremely abusive, may I say, and seem to obsess over your seniority here a lot.
I'm glad b has faithful followers, his blog is worthy of such, but I'm not sure that you necessarily bring the value that you imagine you do. Your comments are often quite incoherent and hard to follow. But that's just me. Carry on; I'm done with your abuse.
Posted by: kalithea | Mar 25, 2014 1:45:44 PM | 81
An aside (kindof): I've been involved in online communications (sic) since around 1979 and one of the first things I realised was that reading online ain't the same as reading a book or a newspaper by virtue of the nature of the medium itself, which is transient, ephemeral. Thus online most of us don't read, we SCAN and only take in what jumps out at us, normally driven by our own prejudices or interests. The rest gets dumped. Out-to-lunch responses, from the getgo were called flaming and with good reason.
Frankly, I think b does a pretty good job here and seems to keep his interventions to a minimum in keeping the natives in line.
Jean Baudrillard wrote an essay about it called 'Xerox to Infinity' (written in the days of the phosphor dot it's true) and in it he talked about the transient nature of the medium itself that lends itself to scanning and not reading.
Posted by: William Bowles | Mar 25, 2014 1:55:40 PM | 82
listen you fuckwit
i just said i was not the person most perfectly placed
read what i said not what you wrote, perhaps that is all you do read what you have written
i have said in recent days that i have not written here for some time but i have read it every day but i said there were others better placed to recount the destruction you have wreaked here
seniority, for fuck's sake, you are really quite stupid, - we fight here & i don't think there is a singular voice - just different critiques that are close to one another as brother & sister
but it appears to me you & pragma come in with a baton & please don't play the fucking innocent either of you, with any critique of your posts, the person is immediately a hasbara agent or worse
really, just reflect a little
Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25, 2014 1:56:24 PM | 83
PS: If you're interested in reading it, you can find here: 'Xerox to Infinity'
and it would seem that the writer of #83 needs to read it too.
Posted by: William Bowles | Mar 25, 2014 1:59:16 PM | 84
baudrillard was wrong on many counts
reading close reading is required. on many issues where else can i have information on baluchistan, or about the intricaciies of ukraine or a whole series of matters. time is tough for all of us but reading is required where there is merit in the analysis, it remains a dialectical matter. it nourishes
Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25, 2014 2:00:07 PM | 85
Posted by: kalithea | Mar 25, 2014 1:10:37 PM | 67
"Anyway, I hope you get what I'm driving at: My belief is that by defeating Zionism, by chiseling away at it; the dominoes sustaining this fatally flawed global foreign policy will tumble successively and will lead to victory for those of us who value peace and live and let live allowing people the freedom to evolve their societies at their pace respecting their culture."
"So I should move on and take my ideas elsewhere as my goal is not to disrupt but to enlighten."
I hope you reconsider. Your postings are one of the reasons I read the comments here. There isn't much independent "wheat" among the cleverly, and not so cleverly, disguised establishment "chaff" postings here. With you gone, there will be even less.
Posted by: scalawag | Mar 25, 2014 2:03:32 PM | 86
Posted by: erichwwk | Mar 25, 2014 1:23:46 PM | 74
Yep, it is arming both sides for the profits of the arms industry. In the interior as well as in the exterior.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 2:04:58 PM | 87
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 25, 2014 2:09:33 PM | 88
American drones over Moldavia?
‘Ukrainian’ drone downed above Moldova’s breakaway region
A drone has been shot down over Transdniestr, Moldova’s breakaway region, the region’s security service has reported on its website. On March 23, the pilotless aircraft was photographing and videoing the republic. Transdniestr special services recovered the video record from the drone, the statement says. According to preliminary information, the unmanned aircraft was launched from Ukraine’s soil by a group of people allegedly linked to Ukraine’s security service, the Interior Ministry’s General Staff or supporters of ultra-nationalist movement Right Sector for an intelligence-gathering operation. Currently, Transdniestr’s security service is working on the identification of those linked to trespassing the republic’s airspace, its press service said.
Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 25, 2014 2:11:42 PM | 89
Just give it a rest Pragma... And you too Giap...
This is getting old.
Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 25, 2014 2:11:52 PM | 90
amen to what scalawag said at #86. Please stay!
Posted by: Nora | Mar 25, 2014 2:14:35 PM | 91
Mr P, I learn a lot from you when you analyze things as you did in #47 so again, please don't go! But when you bicker, you're lowering yourself, and there's no need.
r'giap Likewise -- no one here can feed on your posts when they're just putting someone down: I'd much rather hear your opinions on other stuff, that I don't know anything about.
Can you at least both agree that I've managed to piss both of you off? ;~)
Posted by: Nora | Mar 25, 2014 2:21:26 PM | 92
@80 Mr. Pragma
You did indeed just prove me right when I described your contribution as insightful and I hope b recognizes that, he must after what you just wrote and of course some fantastic stuff you contributed here. Your argument just now was not only insightful but hard to deny or resist.
I'm not sure what to do... I've chosen my battle, to defeat Zionism because I know in my minds' eye and heart it's the ultimate battle to wage and win, and key to stopping this whole blundered, run-away, potential trainwreck foreign policy. It's an urgent and decisive battle, and I can not let it go.
I understand Putin's perspective, although, I still feel like Caesar, albeit Caesar, was an imperialist, and I don't believe Putin is, he believes in a more balanced approach, has enemies in his midst. That worries me.
But anyway, I've choseen my battle; I'm passionate about it and I have to fight it hard, and while I want to contribute to the proxy wars discussion; I keep returning to the core of my belief that Zionism is driving all this, and we must put an end to it to arrest this imperial momentum. Soooo, what I'm saying is...I'm going to check in occasionally and read you guys and see where the direction is going, but I don't want to be a drag on the present discussion or b's own cause and direction.
If I have something of real value that can push his cause forward to perhaps merge with mine, I'll contribute, but if I see that his direction digresses too much from what I think is the mother of all battles that will stop this hegemonic momentum, then I'll fade away and keep aggressively fighting my battle in another corner of the blogosphere.
Whatever I do, I will be checking in on what you're up to! Be good, but not too good which is a twist on When I'm good I'm very, very good, but when I'm bad I'm better.. You were very, very good in that comment. Lol! :)
Posted by: kalithea | Mar 25, 2014 2:26:06 PM | 93
Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 25, 2014 2:11:42 PM | 89
"‘Ukrainian’ drone downed above Moldova’s breakaway region..."
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-03-20/after-crimea-this-tiny-republic-says-annex-us-next After Crimea, This Tiny ‘Republic’ Says: ‘Annex Us Next’
By Jeffrey Tayler March 20, 2014
Probably just a coincidence they are being visited by spy drones.
"American drones over Moldavia?"
They're certainly not coming from dead Muzychko or his little group of jolly garagers.
Posted by: scalawag | Mar 25, 2014 2:29:51 PM | 94
we stay on subject & it is fine with me
Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25, 2014 2:30:10 PM | 95
@William Bowels (#58)
A GREAT article (as it is always the case with Samir Amin) thank you very much for posting the link and bringing it to our attention.
Speaking of Samir Amin, if you are interested in the history and subject of "political Islam" I highly recommend his "Political Islam in the Service of Imperialism". It is mainly about the political Islam in general but he briefly talk about the case of Iran as well.
By the way, you haven't been commenting very often recently, what's up?
Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Mar 25, 2014 2:30:48 PM | 96
William Bowles@58: Thanks for the Samir Amin article. He is always worth reading.
Posted by: Mike Maloney | Mar 25, 2014 2:45:06 PM | 98
"On a more serious note - I can understand US police being as brutal as they are (believe me they are not that trigger happy in Europe), when they expect to find guns in every househould or car."
Maybe police brutality is part of the reason there are so many guns in the US?
There were 33 cops killed by firearms in 2013, the lowest rate since...
Not exactly the Wild West out there for "law"men but thanks for trying to use police brutality to rationalize gun control.
Meanwhile, US cops are becoming increasingly militarized and more and more citizens are being killed. There were over 70,000 paramilitary SWAT raids last year alone. The cops are now out of control over here and can brutalize people at will and there are seldom repercussions. When women can be charged with resisting arrest for fighting off a rapist cop, the time has long since past where citizens need to be armed.
Posted by: Sean | Mar 25, 2014 2:47:11 PM | 99
97) oh, she made it to the Washington Post, too.
I am still missing the BRICS Putin support statement - from Monday - in the MSM.
It now made it at least to UPI but not any further.
Maybe has not sunk in yet - the international community of Russia, Brazil, India, China, South Africa
UPI shortened it to just membership of the G20. Exception in coverage is Canadian Globe and Mail
His allies in the five-member bloc of nations – including China, India, Brazil and South Africa – are refusing to abandon him. Their foreign ministers met on Monday in The Hague and announced that they rejected the use of sanctions in the Ukraine crisis.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 2:54:48 PM | 100