March 24, 2014
Fascist Ukrainian Defense Minister's War Orders Defied
The fascist new defense minister of Ukraine ordered to start a war but was disobeyed. He says that is "regrettable."
Not found this in any English language news yet but several German media reports mention this (my translation from FAZ) :
Meanwhile it became clear that the commanders of Ukrainian warships on the Crimea defied orders from the provisional government in Kiev to use their arms. The Ukrainian minister of defense Ihor Tenyukh said on Sunday in Kiev, Russia managed "despite orders to all commanders to use weapons" to take over the ships. "Regrettably" the commanders decided themselves on how to proceed, he said.
Tenyugh is a member of the fascist Svoboda party that took part in the February 21 coup against the legitimate Ukrainian government. His legally dubious order to shoot at Russian troops in a rather hopeless situation could have easily started a larger war.
My deep gratitude to all those Ukrainian commanders who defied the lunatic order to start a hot war with Russia and allowed a peaceful handover of their equipment to Russian forces.
Posted by b on March 24, 2014 at 06:14 AM | Permalink
Great catch b, thanks for the good news.
Posted by: fairleft | Mar 24, 2014 6:35:33 AM | 1
"During the Euromaidan rally in Kiev on January 19, 2014 Tenyukh warned of the dangers posed by the "coup d'etat planned by the current authorities" and called for members of the Armed Forces to defy "illegal" orders from those in power. He was quoted as saying "Tomorrow the regime will enslave you too. Therefore we are calling on you to fulfill your military oath of loyalty to the Ukrainian people, and not to the authorities who have gone off the rails"
oh the irony...
Posted by: zingaro | Mar 24, 2014 6:36:17 AM | 2
Imagine there being a war and nobody goes.
Posted by: Juan Moment | Mar 24, 2014 6:43:27 AM | 3
I don't know if anyone noticed the Foreign Policy Stepan Bandera whitewash. Here's the money quote, a 1000 words down and the first mention of Jews:
Bandera has become a mythic hero for some and the embodiment of evil for others. No admirer regards the nationalists' violence (especially against Poles and Jews) as laudable, but few regard it as central to what Bandera and his followers represent: a rejection of all things Soviet, a repudiation of anti-Ukrainian supremacism, and an unconditional devotion to Ukrainian independence.
Here's some of the reality that that b.s. whitewashes:
Historian Karel Berkhoff, among others, has shown that Bandera, his deputies, and the Nazis shared a key obsession, namely the notion that the Jews in Ukraine were behind Communism and Stalinist imperialism and must be destroyed. “The Jews of the Soviet Union,” read a Banderist statement, “are the most loyal supporters of the Bolshevik Regime and the vanguard of Muscovite imperialism in the Ukraine.” When the Germans invaded the USSR in June 1941 and captured the East Galician capital of Lvov, Bandera’s lieutenants issued a declaration of independence in his name. They further promised to work closely with Hitler, then helped to launch a pogrom that killed four thousand Lvov Jews in a few days, using weapons ranging from guns to metal poles. “We will lay your heads at Hitler’s feet,” a Banderist pamphlet proclaimed to Ukrainian Jews.
There's also resistance to ignoring the neo-fascists in the current government and to Bandera/OUN whitewashing here:
Ideologically, and explicitly, the OUN sought an ethnically homogenous “führerstaat,” a greater Ukraine under its own totalitarian control. Its leadership endorsed a biologized ethnic nationalism and not only sought but carried out mass murder of those deemed alien to the national organism. Until 1934, its political terrorists were trained by the Ustasha in Mussolini’s Italy; in 1940, they were schooled by the Gestapo in occupied Poland.
Posted by: fairleft | Mar 24, 2014 6:44:02 AM | 4
Good catch b..Of course, this will be ignored by the MSM unless it becomes too obvious to ignore..Even that, they'll only mention it in passing..
The basic fact the EU is conveniently ignoring or trying to hide is that there're many countries within the EU that will vote to get out of the union given the chance. Also many countries(Ex-Soviet countries) with border issues that will vote to region or at least remain autonomous from their EU-soaked central government.
Another interesting thing I found is how some members of the EU are now pushing for less EU reliance on Russian energy. Funny thing is, this idea is being championed by the less productive EU countries like Poland, Moldova etc etc..Basically those with little to loose economically if Russian decides to do some "maintenance work" on the pipelines. The desperation and display of gross stupidity is just breathtaking.
Eastern Ukraine will eventually revert back to Russia..It's only a matter of time...
Posted by: Zico | Mar 24, 2014 6:55:44 AM | 6
Imagine there being a war and nobody goes.
Juan Moment @ 3
That's pretty much what's happening. No sane country(if there's any) in the EU's got an appetite for a fight. So far, they've only stuck to tactics they know best - Sanctions! Basically a weapon of choice for doing NOTHING!!!
Trouble is, it's the small EU countries with less to loose economically that are pushing the other EU states to "do something". Countries like Poland, Finland etc etc have been the most gung ho on military action via NATO. The US so far has send about 15 F-15s to Poland to reassure them..Yeah, 15 F-15s against the many Russian's fighter fleet plus S-400/500 etc etc. You have to wonder the stupidity of these people!
Cuba's been under US sanctions for youngs, yet they produce the best doctors and also export them. Funny how they haven't imposed sanctions on doctors - yet..lol
Posted by: Zico | Mar 24, 2014 7:05:55 AM | 7
Good interview with Orlov who believes that the putsch gov has no chance of commanding the military - which means, even with in inflow of arms from McCain and cronies, they have no chance of governing. Chaos in the near term.
Posted by: Chas | Mar 24, 2014 7:09:22 AM | 8
Transcarpathian Rusyns appealed to Putin
Author: dChe on 03/16/2014, 00:30
Open letter to the President of the Russian Federation Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin
Dear Mr. President of the Russian Federation!
appeal to you - the President of the Grand National, the country - which is clothed with the contractual obligations of our country was not and is not biased by the colonial subjugation of Ukraine, but rather to restore it , stability and unity. We always honor a very high level of civilization values (education, science, employment, stability and social benefits for the Ruthenians) who were brought to the fraternal Russian people in Sub-Carpathian Russia since the fall of 1944, and destroyed in Ukraine for the past 22 years. Urgency of this appeal is caused by illegal seizure of power by nationalists of Galicia and in the surrounding areas of Transcarpathia.
Currently over Transcarpathia, as the last stronghold of the Russian Western World, were in danger of lawlessness Galician nationalists. Deputies Transcarpathian Regional Council purchased Clan progalitskih Nazis Balogh, voted January 29, 2014 for the abolition of the legitimate authority in the Transcarpathian region of Ukraine.Officially serving Ukrainian government and the Constitution of Ukraine and dinner January 29, 2014 ceased to exist under the Carpathians and automatically enters into force indestructible autonomous status of Carpathian Ruthenia.
Obviously the power in Transcarpathia forcibly seized, under the guise of "objection to European values and democratic reforms." began a humanitarian catastrophe for the Ruthenian people and all the inhabitants of Transcarpathia at the hands of Galician Nazis and local collaborators. Invaders officially all state law enforcement agencies created by them are subject to the so-called People's Parliament unconstitutional Transcarpathia. Possible new brewing tragedy with the massive destruction of the Ruthenians as it happened 100 years ago in the Austrian concentration camp death in 1914 (Terezin Talerhof) and in 1939 (Dumen camp near Rakhova). Carpathian Ruthenia - a land where the concentrated energy management units of the Russian Federation and Ukraine forcibly moved under the control of Clan Balog and their minions from Galicia. In this situation, the Government of Carpathian Ruthenia, Rusyn community, asked the President of the Russian Federation, in the spirit of fraternal agreements with Ukraine, (which now, because of the destruction of its Galician Nazis, almost none), to produce a peacekeeping operation for a brief period - and the resumption of pre-Soviet status of the Republic of Subcarpathian Russia.Soviet-Ukrainian name from 26 November 1944 - Transcarpathian Ukraine.
The presence of the referendum results December 1, 1991, as the political will of our people support the recovery Ruthenian state and made us write this message to you, Mr. President. It is based on the decisions of the 2nd National Congress of the European Carpathian Rusyns from October 25, 2008, the Act of the Republic of recreating Carpathian Ruthenia, the Ruthenian national election Government Carpathian Ruthenia and Decisions of the First World Congress of Subcarpathian Ruthenians April 25, 2009 in Pardubice Czech. Last international legal act of will of our people in the Soviet Union - USSR - it's the law (according to the "Law of the USSR on the national and local referendums" from 1991), a local referendum, plebiscite in Transcarpathia 1.12 1991 For 22 years the results of the referendum - Act recognized, legitimate document which expresses the will of the people of Transcarpathia. Its supported by the majority of the people (76.8%), where legally specified that "Transcarpathia - a special self-governing territory, as the subject (international law), not included in other territorial-administrative units" - that means - autonomy within Ukraine. Today Ruthenians edges do not want to be part of such a Ukraine where mature Galician Nazi riots threatening Ruthenians ethnic cleansing. We, Ruthenians, as all residents of Transcarpathia, we have all the international legal grounds appeal to you, Mr. President, for the recognition of the reduced state of Carpathian Ruthenia, at this time of the peacekeeping operation and neutralization Galician Nazism in Transcarpathia. Russian peacekeeping role in the world clearly clarified in solving the Syrian crisis. Believe that the peacekeeping role of the Russian Federation in Ukraine will also be successful in the interests of the country.
Sincerely, Prime Minister of the Republic of Carpathian Ruthenia, Rusyn Network coordinator Peter Getsko
In addition, Peter Getsko associations appealed to Russian Ukrainian Network Ruthenian movement appeals to all Russian and pro-Russian associations and organizations of Ukraine - let's climb, otherwise uncontrolled Nazis crush all alone.We must begin, in any form, create intolerance to any manifestation of fascism Galician, physical, informational, the family, the team at work, neighbors on the landing, on the porch. All the time passes a bystander, it is time to active participants. You need to create a network of resistance and coordinating actions to curb the spreading throughout Ukraine metastases. They all SAY - NO FASCISM Galitsky, in any form, anywhere! Galitsky GANG - THERE FROM REGIONS NEGALITSKIH! My Webpage
Posted by: brian | Mar 24, 2014 7:22:59 AM | 9
off the edge with Yulia!
Yulia wants to #NUKE Ukraine's 10 million #Russians!
#Tymoshenko: I would have found a way to #kill the #morons.
#Shufrych: And you know...
Tymoshenko: And I hope that as soon as I can do it I will raise all my connections and alert the whole world so as to turn Russia into a burned field.
Shufrych: I tell you that I'm your ally here, and even more than that. I want to tell you... well we've had a talk today, this morning there's been a conference of party leaders and then I talked to #Viktor. Vitya asked what we should do to the rest 8 million Russians still living in #Ukraine? They are the outlaws!
Tymoshenko: Damn, we should fire #nukes at them!
Shufrych: I wouldn't argue with you here, because what's happened is a dreadful thing.
Posted by: brian | Mar 24, 2014 7:30:41 AM | 10
b, here is the Ukraine defense ministry admitting they ordered naval commanders to fire on Russian forces:
Sunday, March 23. KYIV – Ihor Tenyukh, Acting Minister of Defense of Ukraine, informed that some Ukrainian military units would eventually be withdrawn from peninsula.
“Ukrainian Navy ships were captured in Crimea. All the commanders received the order to fire, but they didn’t follow it to avoid bloodshed”, noted Acting Defense Minister.
Not that the truth will be mentioned in the Western imperial propaganda parading as media (Wippam).
Posted by: fairleft | Mar 24, 2014 7:32:57 AM | 11
I read a comment in the Guardian that 16,000 Ukrainian soldiers changed sides and only 2000 were withdrawn from Crimea to Ukraine. Not well sourced, but if true, that's amazing. Loyalty to Kiev must be extraordinarily weak.
Goes along with your post, b.
Posted by: Alexno | Mar 24, 2014 7:52:32 AM | 13
Somebody: "Whoever leaked that wants civil war." I don't quite get that. I think it more likely that whoever leaked the tape (and it is not clear whether or not it is is authentic), wants to embarrass Tymoshenko and the leadership in Kiev, and teach folks in the West and Russia about the actual nature of the coup-installed regime.
Posted by: fairleft | Mar 24, 2014 8:21:05 AM | 14
Yes, good catch, b. This is a very droll story when you think about it. Ordering the Navy (people in ships) to open fire on Russian forces (ready, willing and able to do battle with NATO) sounds a lot like a Kamikase order. Fortunately the Naval commanders, unlike the putchists, are sane.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 24, 2014 8:30:07 AM | 15
14) How would you feel as a Russian ethnic citizen of Ukraine knowing that the women uttering these threats is the leader of the supposedly moderate party in power in the Kiew government, whilst their coalition partners are known to be worse? Knowing security is led by this type of people?
I would either
- flee to Russia or
- join a militia
I agree, the leak is probably meant to smear Julia Timoshenko - she can come out now and tell Russian citizens not to worry but feel safe.
What does it tell us if she does not?
Posted by: somebody | Mar 24, 2014 8:32:16 AM | 16
actually, when you read the Wikipedia entry of the defense minister, he has got a track record
On August 22, 2008, Tenyukh was promoted from Vice Admiral to the rank of Admiral. Tenyukh was responsible for ordering Ukrainian naval vessels to block[when?] the entrance of the Russian Navy to the bay of Sevastopol, in response to the 2008 South Ossetia War. No ships were blocked. On March 19, 2010, President Viktor Yanukovich dismissed Tenyukh from his position[
Presumably the army routinely ignores him.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 24, 2014 8:49:20 AM | 17
@13 Who the hell would be loyal to a coup government in any situation? I mean seriously. Even if it was a coup government I liked and that other people liked, it STILL wouldnt have any legitimacy. You cant just kick out a president, put on his hat, say "IM THE NEW PRESIDENT!", and expect people to obey you. It doesnt work that way.
The only people who respect this government are US, EU, Svoboda politicians and Pravy Sektor teenagers, and thats it. Even the svoboda voting right wing Ukrainians probably dont have much more love for this new government than they did for Yanukovych.
Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 24, 2014 10:38:34 AM | 19
@17 Oh god thats so bad...
And this new government didnt have any other experienced military officers who support them that they could make as a defence minister? Makes you wonder if, if this is the best they could find to make a defence minister, I wonder if the government is filled with people as buffoonish as this one. How much better could their agriculture minister et al be if this is the best man they could find to be a defence minister?
Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 24, 2014 10:41:47 AM | 21
About the Yulia video, im assuming this is a forgery. She doesnt seem stupid enough to be joking about nuking half her own country.
Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 24, 2014 10:43:08 AM | 22
courtesy Honk at the Saker, check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar-Turkey_pipeline
Money quote: "The discovery in 2009 of a new gas field near Israel, Lebanon, Cyprus, and Syria opened new possibilities to bypass the Saudi Barrier and to secure a new source of income. Pipelines are in place already in Turkey to receive the gas. Only Al-Assad is in the way. Qatar along with the Turks would like to remove Al-Assad and install the Syrian chapter of the Moslim Brotherhood. It is the best organized political movement in the chaotic society and can block Saudi Arabia's efforts to install a more fanatical Wahhabi based regime."
Whoa. Everything's getting realigned, but it ain't gonna be peaceful anytime soon.
Posted by: Nora | Mar 24, 2014 10:54:09 AM | 24
They get prosecuted for not being Kamikaze? What a wonderful way to gain the support of your military...
They should be thankful the troops didnt just join Russia. If they want to throw lives away fruitlessly so badly they should become kamikazes themselves. Maybe if Yatsenyuk strapped a bomb to his back and tried to blow up a russian ship he would actually get some respect.
If these people want a military that does what its ordered, this isnt the way to do it. This kind of thing should lower morale of any soldier or officer in the country who isnt a lunatic right sector goon.
Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 24, 2014 10:59:04 AM | 25
Chas/The Interview you linked talk about the possibility of the night of the long knives. That is what I have been thinking about since I heard the plan to create the National Guard.
Powerful supporters of Hitler had been complaining about Röhm for some time. The generals were fearful of Röhm's desire to have the SA, a force of over three million men, absorb the much smaller German Army into its ranks under his leadership. Further, reports of a huge cache of weapons in the hands of SA members gave the army commanders even more concern. Industrialists, who had provided the funds for the Nazi victory, were unhappy with Röhm's socialistic views on the economy and his claims that the real revolution had still to take place. Matters came to a head in June 1934 when President von Hindenburg, who had the complete loyalty of the army, informed Hitler that if he did not move to curb the SA then Hindenburg would dissolve the Government and declare martial law.
Does it sound familiar? Also what is interesting in the interview is that the Ukrainian army is refusing to provide weapons to the National Guard. If it can be confirmed, that is also significant.
However there is something which puzzles me. I thought National Guard is Right Sector with a new name. However there was this report from NYT.
Ukraine Sets Deadline for Militias to Surrender Illegal Guns
The interim government is now seeking to integrate the loosely organized militias into a newly formed national guard, though several hard-line groups, including Right Sector, have declined to join.
If this is true, power play in Kiev is more complex than I thought, and National Guard could be a maneuver to isolate Right Sector.
Unless right wing militia including Right Sector is neutralized soon, civil war can start and any diplomatic settlement will be sabotaged. They already sabotaged one, why not the second one?
The question is can it bee done?
Posted by: PuppetMaster | Mar 24, 2014 11:04:33 AM | 26
Now that'll be fun: imagine trying to control a bunch of angry 17-year-olds -- angry armed 17-year-olds who've already been told to knock it off with the swastikas. Like herding cats with kalishnikovs hidden in their fur.
Posted by: Nora | Mar 24, 2014 11:14:06 AM | 27
The Kiev junta also ordered the borders closed with Crimea. Nobody allowed to cross either way. This was done to hinder Ukrainian soldiers wishing to return to the Ukraine so that the Ukrainian junta could claim the Russians were not letting them leave. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who was behind that dirty trick.
Tymoshenko is a psychopath, pure and simple. She has been connected to murders in the Ukraine back in the 90's. Her hysterics during her trial, while in prison, and since she's been released are evidence of an unhinged mind. I literally would not be surprised by anything she says or advocates, no matter how extreme. She is another Hillary Clinton.
Posted by: scalawag | Mar 24, 2014 11:23:49 AM | 28
Posted by: brian | Mar 24, 2014 10:45:43 AM | 23
Brian, the Kiev junta threatened those troops with desertion charges because they wanted the soldiers to remain in Crimea so the junta could claim the Russians were holding them "prisoner" in their old bases. It's another of the typical dirty tricks the west practices. Ordering Ukraine military to fire on Russians in Crimea is another. Tenyukh was following orders from his American, European and Israeli masters, just like the snipers of Maidan, and more recently, Crimea, were.
Posted by: scalawag | Mar 24, 2014 11:31:33 AM | 29
If someone is really going to do it, they have a powerful trump card.
Remember the sniper story?
If they can arrest leaders of right wing militias and Svoboda party and charge them for killing protesters and the police, it will publicly shame and discredit them. When the charge is coming from the Kiev regime itself, not from Moscow, it will be powerful.
That will help herding the cats.
I suspect that the sniper story has gone as far as it did largely thank to inside whistleblowers.
The good doctor Olga Bogomolets was whistleblowing when she told it to the Estonian foreign minister.
Even the Health Minister of Kiev regime, Oleh Musiy who confirmed that both protesters and the police were killed by the same sniper but blamed Russian special force, also could be doing a whistleblowing in a clever way.
There could be enough people even inside the Kiev regime who want to see the end of Svoboda and Right Sector.
Posted by: PuppetMaster | Mar 24, 2014 11:37:29 AM | 30
22) this is her very officially in Bild Zeitung which will have insisted on her signing off
How should Ukraine react?
- We will defend ourselves. We had hopes for the Budapest Memorandum of 1994, according to which Ukraine was guaranteed security, territorial integrity and sovereignty. We saw that such documents and treaties do not work in the face of such unprecedented and hysterical aggression. We are obliged to stand up to the aggressor one-on-one. We do not see any other way. During the months of EuroMaidan Ukraine learned to win, maybe with just wooden shields, but with heroism and patriotism in our hearts. We have the bitter experience, but it is the experience of victory. We will not let anyone offend our country. We must defend our country, no matter what the cost.
She sounds deranged. Maybe she is not deranged. But then she says this stuff because the people who back her pay for it.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 24, 2014 11:41:25 AM | 31
26) What you describe makes sense as the Röhm Putsch was one armed branch of the NSDAP getting rid of the other - SS got rid of the SA leadership.
Unfortunately for Germans they did not finish off each other.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 24, 2014 11:46:07 AM | 32
"Imagine there being a war and nobody goes"
Hey, shut the fuck up! You're gonna cause McCain to have a stroke.
Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Mar 24, 2014 12:19:52 PM | 33
Pepe reported that story back in 2012, along with the desire of GCC to stop the Iran-Iraq-Syria gas pipeline from reaching the Syrian port in Latakia Provence, very near Tartus. My assumption at the time was that was what the whole destabilization of Syria was about. I still think is was a major factor.
Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 24, 2014 12:29:19 PM | 34
Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 24, 2014 10:43:08 AM | 22
It seems she confirms the phone call but says what she said had been doctored to apply to Russians in Ukraine, not Russians as in Putin's Russia.
That makes sense in the context of how to get Crimea back and in the context of the Bild interview.
As radiation from Cernobyl came down in Bavaria probably still causing thyroid cancer I would not feel safe with her no matter the nationality.
It just shows how crazy Ukrainian identity politics are.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 24, 2014 12:36:35 PM | 35
The bug in b's notice is the attribute "fascist". Tenyugh acted as Commander in Chief and he did so in coordination with Jats who we know is a creature of Nuland, Feltman und those behind them. So Nuland did this.
Posted by: TomGard | Mar 24, 2014 12:40:34 PM | 36
kudos to those who defied the orders from kiev..
yulia tymoshenko.. looks like it would have been better to leave her in jail indefinitely..
@19 Massinissa. i agree with your post. probably correct @22 as well.
Posted by: james | Mar 24, 2014 12:45:18 PM | 37
Wanting to curb those cats with kalishnikovs is one thing -- after all, they've served their useful purpose. But actually getting all of them under control (where? in prison? really?) is quite another. For everyone's sake I'd sure like to see them do it, but I wouldn't bank on their success. After all, who exactly do they have to do the herding?
Posted by: Nora | Mar 24, 2014 12:45:49 PM | 38
I think you're right about the "long knives". Those 17 yo boys would be perfect for that, plus, Kiev is short on ANY kind of military/militia. Those gung ho kids will serve their purposes fine, no reason to disband or imprison them - unless the West is emphatically insisting on it.
Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 24, 2014 12:54:21 PM | 39
Here it is (NYT)
“For those who want to defend their country with an assault rifle in their hands, welcome to the National Guard or the Army,” Mr. Yatsenyuk said in a speech this week.
Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 24, 2014 12:58:26 PM | 40
this is the NYT link
At the group’s headquarters in the Dnipro Hotel here, where men in jeans and military fatigues guarded the hallways this week, some of them with black-and-red bandannas over their faces, a man with a submachine gun stood guard outside the office of Mr. Yarosh.
“We are ready to become partisans, and are preparing for this role,” Mr. Yarosh said. “Patriots with guns are the best protection.”
Hryhoriy Nemyria, a Parliament member and a former deputy prime minister who supports the government’s position on collecting firearms, said in an interview that far from discouraging a Russian intervention, the widespread distribution of illegal firearms could just as easily be used to justify one.
“Arms out of control of the state are of course a factor in instability, and should not be allowed to drift by inertia,” he said. “In the context of Russian agents crossing the border, the guns are a catalyst for disorder. Arming the population is not our policy.”
Posted by: somebody | Mar 24, 2014 1:08:21 PM | 41
Much to do has been made of America's backing and support of Fascist elements in the Ukraine and elsewhere, and for good reason. However, some of those same critics turn a blind eye when Putin uses the very same tactics. Both sides use the Fascists for their own ends, and perhaps at their own peril. I'm sure those who enabled and funded Hitler and his Brown Shirts in the early years thought they were using the Fascist goofball thugs, and they were for a while, but those brutally awkward and silly Fascist thugs eventually morphed into an uncontrollable, psychotic beast with its own heinous agenda. I'm not sure that's possible in this day and age…raw, naked, in-your-face, brutal, hot, ultra-nationalistic Fascism in charge, but it is notable that these elements are utilized by both America and Russia to achieve their own ends.
From the linked article:
The renewed stimulation of anti-Western discourses through the use of “political technologies” is promoting a dangerous undercurrent and accelerating the development of what may be called “uncivil society” in Russia. The anti-democratic faction in Russia’s nonprofit sector represents a network of partly cooperative, partly competing, extremely anti-liberal groups, organizations, and publications. Many, to be sure, are distinguished by the support they receive from government agencies and through active advertising on Kremlin-controlled TV channels. They thus represent GONGOs (Government-Organized Non-Governmental Organizations), rather than genuine civil society initiatives. However, there is a danger that the stepped-up campaign of incitement against the United States may both permanently establish a conspiracy-minded, paranoid world view as the legitimate interpretation of international events and help entrench the clubs that promote this world view as legitimate participants in Russian public discourse.
As a result, an aggressively anti-Western right-wing extremism seems to be forming within Russian political life as a stable third pole between the authoritarian regime and the democratic opposition. The Kremlin appears to be implementing a risky political scheme aimed at restructuring public life: the increased incorporation of ultra-nationalists into mainstream political discourse appears designed to cause a comprehensive rightward shift along Russia’s ideological spectrum, so that the nationalism of Putin and his immediate associates, which is also quite virulent, seems relatively centrist against the background of the far more radical demands “from the grassroots”, i.e., from the increasingly prominent right-wing extremists.....
Since the announcement of Putin’s third presidency in September 2011, a restructuring of the ultra-nationalist intellectual milieu has been under way in which the Isborsk Club plays the leading role. Extreme right-wing propagandists lament, sometimes, hysterically, today’s situation in Russia. They frequently conjure up apocalyptical scenarios for the future of their country and the world.
Notwithstanding their dubious background, questionable academic credentials, and tarnished reputation, they can act freely, often appear on government-controlled television, and are regarded with favor by the Kremlin, if not purposefully promoted. Should these tendencies continue, the already critical Russian public opinion toward the United States will deteriorate even more, and the alienation between Russia and the West will increase.
Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Mar 24, 2014 1:14:56 PM | 42
@42 So why don't we have a President Zhirinovsky?
Posted by: Jon Lester | Mar 24, 2014 1:17:03 PM | 43
"It doesn't sound like they actually worry."
What, me worry?
Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 24, 2014 1:28:15 PM | 45
@ColdHole, also from linked article, Anti-Orange Club:"The name of the club refers to the 2004 Ukrainian so-called Orange Revolution, which is interpreted by some right-wing extremists, as well as by many representatives and apologists of the Putin regime, as a conspiracy that was steered by the CIA or even as a fascist-inspired event."
The author neglected to add "as well as those who can see what's staring them in the face."
Posted by: ruralito | Mar 24, 2014 1:42:39 PM | 48
Whenever someone posts about "All the times we almost reached nuclear doomsday." I'm reassured that most officers are smart enough to consciously choose not to cause global catastrophe, no matter how stupid generals are. One could recall Wesley Clark commanding James Blunt to attack Russian paratroopers at Pristina airport.
Posted by: Crest | Mar 24, 2014 2:37:00 PM | 50
First, good catch, b.
And now to timochenko. As I indicated earlier (but almost nobody cared) timochenko was a critical piece from the beginning.
For a starter it might be helpful to remind that timochenko was not and is not in any way a friend of Russia or Putin. The usual "logic" goes like "But she made those oil deals so favourable to Russia!". No, she didn't. What she did was, based on the advise of counselors, to link the gas purchase price to the oil price; the calcule was that this would fuck Russia and get ukraine very cheap gas - and the calcule turned out to be very wrong. After all, the Russian hydrocarbon guys know a thing or two about their business.
First of all timochenko is a highly criminal, extremely greedy viper that did arrange for murders of opponents and would have no qualms whatsoever to bomb a major city if only that gave her power or money in return, preferably both.
But she's also intelligent and has recognized very early that the really big shots in international crime are in the wezt; and so she sought and built contacts to the wezt early on.
For whatever reason she connected quite profoundly with merkel, the remote controlled zusa tool that happens to have a strong zeu image.
It is certainly no coincidence that Germany, namely merkel, has been in the center from early on. It was merkel who fought and pushed yanukovich to be allowed to send high ranking medical teams to timochenko. While there wasn't too much fuzz made about it, one could wonder why the CEO of Berlins university hospital, a neurologist by education but more of a manager since many years and the recipient of Germanies highest merit order, had been sent; that seemed at least quite strange and while there was occasional mentioning of a "medical team", there was never any information about those in the team available other than said charite CEO. It seems very reasonable to doubt the "medical" in "medical team".
And again when, about a year later, the "demonstrations" in kiev began, merkel was deeply involved. Her guy, klitchko, who, from what I hear, is well liked in Germany (as a boxer) but not considered particularly smart, is in the very core of the revolts.
Somewhat later it would surface that the konrad adenauer stiftung played a (planned to be) discrete but major role in the events in kiev. What is that kas (konrad adenauer stiftung)?
It is a non-profit foundation deeply linked to the cdu party of merkel, formally doing work to politically educate the people, (planned to be) looking very democratic and benevolent on the outside. In fact it's *very* deeply linked with zusa and troublemakers like otpor, the "fist" guys organizing pretty every colour (and other) "democracy" revolution from Venezuela, the arabic spring, and ukraine, and, of course, deeply linked to cia through diverse shop-fronts like ned.
Some may remember that some time ago some "alien ngos" were forbidden or strictly limited in Egypt. Well, guess what, konrad adenauer stiftung was in the center of those ngos.
It seems only reasonable to assume that the "medical team" for which merkel fought so hard with yanukovich actually was merkels channel to provide her friend timochenko with otpor, kas, ned, bnd, and other resources to allow timochenko to plan and prepare for the revolution (albeit originally planned for 2015) and for timochenko coming to power again as a reliable and indebted weztern tool.
It might be noteworthy that Germany or, more precise, merkel and some puppets around her began to float weird ideas of a stronger German role in europes policy and even globally, expressly including Germans military; all that was thinly disguised under an umbrella very similar to R2P.
And this - quelle surprise - just happend to surface around the ukraine crisis.
I might be off a mile but I tend to think that all of this is based on merkel understanding Russias increasing importance for Germany but profoundly hating Russia. It might well be the case that that whole ukraine thing, as far as merkel is concerned, was meant as a weird attempt to a) show to zusa (to whom her party cdu always looked up in admiration) that germany has grown up and was ready for a role way above merely being "one o' them european lite weight countries" and that by b) at the same time driving a knife deep into Putins torso. Last but not least, Germany might have thought that such they would certainly earn a large bite in the ukrainian loot, i.e. the eastern industrial zone and possibly even some participation in hydrocarbon resources.
I've already said it earlier that I expect Putin to give merkel a very solid beating up - and she more than earned it. So, I actually see todays timochenko leaks as a double message by Putin (because, frankly, the not-all-new revelation that timochenko is a dirty whore and murderous slut wouldn't be worth the efforts).
a) We, Russia, still have way more saying, connections, and de facto power than you weztern idiots could ever hope for.
It might be interesting to note that timochenko itself attributed the leak to FSB. This is interesting not only for underlining Russia influence and power in ukraine but also for disguising the (for her) ugly truth, namely the fact that this tape almost certainly came from loyal anti-regime people in *ukraines* secret service.
b) Lookie, lookie, what nice friends merkel has and supports!
By leaking this tape Putin in one single strike shatters merkels image of an upright, profoundly democratic and always clean leader, but he also sends her a very serious warning shot.
And one could have guessed it earlier. In his Crimea speech Putin had very friendly words for Germany, the country, and the German people while complete ignoring Germanies criminal government.
Clearly, Putin line is sth. like "We *will* achieve a good partnership with germany, no matter what dirty tricks merkel tries. If needed, we will crush the criminal zusa-whore government in Berlin but we will stay friends of Germany and the Germans".
And indeed, Germany were to immensely profit from a solid partnership with Russia in pretty every regard, not at least to finally become a souvereign country again.
Russia happens to be in a geographical and geostrategical pivot position; it needs relations to both, Europe and Asia. Similarly, zeu is in a crisis and its only chance to survive it is by breaking free from zusa.
Once more Putin played big time and brilliant chess while zusa and zeu brandish empty democracy blabla and toothless sanctions.
Vade retro, merkel moritura!
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 24, 2014 3:26:03 PM | 51
LOL. The site corn-hole points to at 42 says this about itself:
"TOL was established in April 1999, the month after the publication of the final issue of its print predecessor, Transitions magazine. (The print magazine was first published in 1994 by the Open Media Research Institute, a joint venture between Radio Free Europe and the Open Society Institute.)" And that folks is all you need to know about the source - CIA & Soros. Or put another way CIA & CIA.
Posted by: skuppers | Mar 24, 2014 4:00:48 PM | 52
@35 Yulia wanting to nuke Russia doesnt make me feel any safer...
In fact, her wanting to nuke russia makes me feel less safe than her wanting to nuke east ukraine... Thank god she doesnt actually have any at her own disposal..
Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 24, 2014 4:07:49 PM | 53
@44 Jesus, executing 529 MB supporters? Like at once? Jesus lord mercy.
I didnt like the MB much but this is ridiculous.
Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 24, 2014 4:11:49 PM | 54
What is pathetic chinese government doing?! Now they apparently support US, EU stance on Russia.
Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 24, 2014 4:13:01 PM | 55
@55 Its a strange day when India supports Russia but China doesnt...
If China doesnt notice that the USA is tightening the noose around China, and also Russia, then theyre the biggest idiots in the world at the moment. I dont care how scared they are of Tibet or Xinjiang seceding from them after being inspired by Ukraine, the United States is far more dangerous than any secession of western provinces in China.
Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 24, 2014 4:20:07 PM | 56
Ref MB Egypt
There is no way the execution will ever take place. It is about frightening the people. There is still the appeal at the cassation court coming. It just give an idea of the mere chaos going around there.
Posted by: Mina | Mar 24, 2014 4:20:22 PM | 57
Very bad signs indeed, I thought China stood up against these imperialists but nope they are just another pus5y government just like the rest of the g7 states, sometimes I wonder how stupid these states really are, as you say nato is against them...they dont seems to get it!
Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 24, 2014 4:22:58 PM | 58
wow that's something even I didn't expect. After all, Timoshenko is "mild".
Thanks for the link.
For me it still looks exactly like I was afraid before - whatever the current outcome is, Russia does not liberate the Ukraine completely short-term. What it means is Khasavyurt accord replayed. Those "8 millions" will suffer 1st, the rest 35 next and only after it spills out of Ukrainian border Russia will react. Putin behaves like a weak person. IMO, he does have a reasons - e.g. Russia is not strong enough, no autarky anymore, he doesn't want to look "cruel" for anyone sane etc.
Nevertheless, now I wonder again why do ppl in the West [mostly] hate Russians so much ? I'm not even talking about mccain or some other shitheads. C'mon, what we have done to you?
Like we see that "Cold N. Holefield" who is clearly the one of "them". Like what, he met Russian prostitute (which he said is "the only way out of Russia") and she didn't serve him good enough? Would be hard to extend to all the ppl who hate Russians though.
Russia does have problems, like any of the countries on this planet. But the point is, Russia is able to resolve most of its problems w/out external aggression like over-populated "west" have to, and it does so. So what is that? Lebensraum unconsciousness?
There's also a good thought which was once shared by Lavrov or someone else from Russian foreign office - "The problem is that we're white, but different. Nobody in the US really hates Chinese - they're just different. But Russians are white so they have to be the same but they are not". This kind of xenophobia is widely discussed in the field of any potential extraterrestrial intelligence contact and it's widely known that more "similar" physical forms would create more problems for contact. Mb we just didn't evolve enough to identify the species.
I'd be glad to read your thoughts.
Posted by: Sergey | Mar 24, 2014 4:28:40 PM | 59
Links, please? The only thing I could find is this;
He also discussed the crisis at a meeting in The Hague with Chinese President Xi Jinping, who has voiced support for Ukraine's sovereignty but refrained from criticizing Russia. The West wants Beijing's diplomatic support in an effort to restrain Putin.
The Western media wants to portray China as backing the West on Crimea, to maintain the pretense that Russia is "isolated".
Posted by: Demian | Mar 24, 2014 4:33:04 PM | 60
I thought China had threaded that needle rather well, especially considering that she's got a couple of potential break-away provinces of her own... Something new, and solid, here, or just a slanted re-hash of... nothing?
Posted by: Nora | Mar 24, 2014 4:41:54 PM | 61
Well China stand behind the g7 statement threatening more sanctions on Russia.
Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 24, 2014 4:43:27 PM | 62
Americans didn't hate Russians during the Cold War. They felt sorry for Russians, because they were living under Communism.
West Germans certainly don't hate Russians. Some East Germans like Merkel do. I suspect that most people who express hatred of Russians on the Web are ex-USSR (even some Russian ex-pats express hatred of Russia) or Polish.
Most Americans don't hate Russians. The main reason some do, I think, is that they know that they know they are completely powerless, so they try to compensate for that by buying into the illusion the media constructs that there are no bounds to American power; Russia breaks that illusion.
Judging by movies and TV, Russians are not perceived as "white, but different". Americans lack enough familiarity with other cultures to perceive Russians as different.
For the past couple of years, all Western media has been portraying Putin as an evil dictator, however.
Posted by: Demian | Mar 24, 2014 4:46:59 PM | 63
Sergey@59: Your average American citizen does not hate Russia. This is all coming from above, from the rancid plutocracy that governs the country. The Putin demonization campaign might have a tiny bit of traction in the smart-set crowd who consumes their info via MSNBC. But for the most part the whole Obama administration effort -- whether it's Kerry, Rice, Biden or Obama himself -- to ridicule Russia for violating "international norms" has gone over like a loud fart at a funeral. (The funeral is for the remainder of Obama's term in office.)
Posted by: Mike Maloney | Mar 24, 2014 4:49:02 PM | 64
that's easy sergey
the fact that the soviet union defeated fascism alone has always been the bad conscience of the west - the 'misreading' or the country & her people begin from that point
they prefer their puppets simple, real simple, like yeltsin
rossokovski, the complexity pf such a man or vatutin is completely beyond them
how this mighty people permit neo nazis to live amongst them is beyond me
war is in the imagination of the feverish though some form of civil conflict at a heightened level seems likely in the the south & east of ukraine & i think the slaps around the head the russians have given the saudis - humiliating them essentially, revealing who they really are & who they serve - i assume they will be funding terrorist groupuscules
instinctually i think they really want venezuela but there they are failing too. while the empire collapses it seems towant to create failed states everywhere
Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 24, 2014 4:49:51 PM | 65
The average American has never given any thought whatever to Russia or the Russian people. They have been classically-conditioned (think Pavlov) to fear or get enraged by whomever the media select to be the latest comic-book villain. Oh, and also any "ism" the media tell them is Evil. They know nothing about those either, except that they're Big-Bad-No-No-Naughty. So right now Putin is Evil Incarnate, but as soon as it suits their purposes it will be someone or something else. And the American public will trot right along, salivate when they're wanted to and swallow whatever they are fed. I've never known a dog that dumb though -- dogs do learn. Americans don't seem to.
Posted by: Nora | Mar 24, 2014 4:58:58 PM | 67
Demian, I have a comment at least on this:
> or Polish.
I had a "fortune" to live in Poland, namely Krakow. Well I must admit that Krakow is well known for its nationalism and alike, but I was really surprised that _I was hated_. You could see it subtle, nobody was going to kill me or anything. But I recall a very nasty and humiliating story as a single example. It's been a student time and we've been there as a part of a student intl organization, so there have been very few Russians, all assisted by many Polish students and even more Europeans. One Saturday night we've been to some club, all a bit drunk and a girl (Polish if I recall correct) lost her bag (most likely stolen). They did have a high crime rate back then (I guess they do now). In fact I was even robbed once on my way back home a month later. So what would you think? Russians (~4 out of 30ppl) were somehow identified as a suspects. Nobody said this, it was just seen in there eyes. We didn't have a lot of parties after that.
Later on I found at least one reason for such an attitude and it was kind of fun to find out. Polish government accepted lots of Chechen "refugees" before that. All of them had Russian passports and were more not of refugees but a real criminals. So it was kind of explainable - indeed, in Krakow, they had most of ppl with Russian passports as criminals.
But even though Polish government managed this "tricky program" on hate training, I don't think it would succeed that much w/out ppl been prejudiced.
Posted by: Sergey | Mar 24, 2014 5:04:42 PM | 68
Nevertheless, now I wonder again why do ppl in the West [mostly] hate Russians so much ? I'm not even talking about mccain or some other shitheads.
From what I know most europeans do not hate Russians. It's the media that hit again and again against Russia, spreading absurd lies, and relentlessly attack Russia and particularly president Putin.
I know from my partner that in Germany even the public state TV slanders Putin and spreads absurd propaganda.
We must not care. The people are brainwashed and ill informed by the relentless zionist media machine and still most of them do *not* hate Russia. Actually I think that much is driven by envy because not a single country in zeu has a president/chancellor/PM that even comes close to Putin who actually works *for* his people and to make their life better.
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 24, 2014 5:04:50 PM | 69
Something like 90-95% of western populace, Europe and US, at a guess, are quite literally brainwashed by their media. It's not just mainstream news, but also movies, advertising, celebrity pop culture, the gamut. It adds up to 24/7 full immersion propaganda. A westerner who watches television at all is responding to implanted memes. They hate whom they are instructed to hate; cognitive dissonance and moral relativism do not impact them, they just go blank. It's that simple.
BTW - I personally am a deep admirer of Russian culture, people, history, science, arts... Extraordinary people. Look at it this way O' Russki Brutha... at least you have a culture. We here in the US lost ours about a hundred years ago.
Posted by: Chas | Mar 24, 2014 5:05:13 PM | 70
Nora@67: I might be guilty of excessive optimism here about the intelligence of the American electorate, but what about the huge outcry when Obama was waiving Tomahawks at Damascus? People were hip to that bullshit, no? I think it was clear to most that we were being led into another interminable Middle East conflict, the difference being in the case of Syria that the U.S. was actually acting in support of our putative existential enemy, Al Qaeda.
Posted by: Mike Maloney | Mar 24, 2014 5:06:33 PM | 71
Best answer yet.
To make an unrelated observation, I've noticed that news stories on the Ukraine now often mention that Putin thinks that the Crimea having been in the Ukraine at the time of the USSR's breakup was a mistake. I think that the reason they are doing that is to reassure people that Crimea going back to Russia is not that big of a "loss" for the "West".
One objective of all US propaganda is to maintain the delusion that the US has absolute power. For example:
Another difference is that Russian military power is a shadow of Soviet might. A new global conflict is unlikely. But Russia’s military can still threaten Russian border states, so Europeans must bolster their defenses, and Western governments and companies must stop assisting Russia’s military modernization.
The fact that Russia is still a nuclear power that is the equal of the US is not mentioned.
Posted by: Demian | Mar 24, 2014 5:08:41 PM | 72
> how this mighty people permit neo nazis to live amongst them is beyond me
Not sure if you're talking about Ukraine but if you do, there's also an opinion that a state, forming, must pass a phase the forced nationalism and assimilation. That's clearly difficult for Ukraine - it's synthetic and it has minorities from neighbors. What they see as the most recent examples is much different - like Indonesia, which history I "admire" - they [partially] made a nation out of nothing.
Ukraine just over-bend it.
Posted by: Sergey | Mar 24, 2014 5:13:44 PM | 73
62 anonymous, not true
Obama also discussed the crisis at a meeting in The Hague with Chinese President Xi Jinping, who has voiced support for Ukraine's sovereignty but refrained from criticizing Russia.
The West wants Beijing's diplomatic support in an effort to restrain Putin but while Xi called for a political solution, he did not harden China's position towards Moscow.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 24, 2014 5:17:28 PM | 74
Chas #70 What culture did we lose 100 years ago?
Mike Maloney # 71 I don't know, Mike, there's not necessarily any sign of a thought process in that war-weariness, you know? And at least where we live, or what we read, we don't see people bothering to think much about anything, anywhere. I'm not sure when our fellow-citizens got so spectacularly stupid, but I know newspapers got a lot less literate (literally a lot less literate!) in the 1990's. I'd rather blame Nixon or Reagan of course, but it grew real obvious under Clinton.
Posted by: Nora | Mar 24, 2014 5:17:49 PM | 75
Mr. P #51
Anyone who followed the attack on Ukraine attentively will remember the deal the German, French and Polish FM struck with Yanukowich, that ousted him. He might even remember the slighly pathetic performance Putin made around this fact in his pc: That he couldn't grasp, why the massacre was done and the putsch performed after Yanu gave up and fulfilled just every demand of that foreign Trio Infernale.
Well, it's simple, the deal ousted Yanuk, it would have also been a putsch, but it left room for an orderly handover and transition without forcibly confronting Crimea and the eastern and southern oblasts. Simply put: It had evaded - or, if you prefer: foiled - war.
Tiahnybok and Parubij broke the deal and we can fairly assume, Jats also. But also klitchko broke it. He rushed to the maidan and tried to appear as radical, as Tiahnybok.
So, for whom would the Trio Infernale stage this futile show if it was a show?!
For the sheeple at home?! You're dreaming!
Even less since this show - it was one - discredited the Maidan and it's radicals the minute the gun smoke on Maidan lifted and gave place for videos of two of three cameras which revealed unrefutable, that they were shot to expose the shooting from behind, the false flag - operation. One of it made by a russian speaking team.
I leave it at that. The reader might judge what to make of Mr. P's narrative which tries to rewrite history right after the fact, to insert false memories at the public and doing this in the disguise of a "Putin partisan".
I'am quite sure Nora and Mr. P. act as a team, sometimes P. even takes over Nora's Avatar (and IP, I guess). I won't argue. I studied literature and used to work as playwright some time ago, I learned a little about where to look at in performing lines.
Posted by: TomGard | Mar 24, 2014 5:20:29 PM | 76
The fact that Russia is still a nuclear power that is the equal of the US is not mentioned.
Just a sidenote but, no, it isn't. In fact Russias nuclear capabilities are strongly superior tu zusas when considering not just the numbers but the whole cycle from launch to final delivery.
And as recent developments (like the new Topol) show, Russia has no intentions to let their lead (vs. mostly 25+ yrs. old and inferior zusa system) shrink; quite the contrary.
And Putin is right because, no matter all the democracy blabla, a hard core serial criminal like zusa understands and respects only one language, a devastating punch right into their visage.
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 24, 2014 5:23:04 PM | 77
OF COURSE Nora and myself act as a team! She's the rusty typewriter and I'm the program. And all this happens under the basement of the KGB headquarters (don't mind that KGB doesn't exist any more).
You didn't know that until now? That makes me proud because as everything Russian KGB is so rusty and lousy that usually our plots don't work out.
As for the IP you're on to something, you have uncovered the major story! As you know everything anyway I can as well confess right away:
Actually we took Crimea only to add some rusty IP addresses to our very old and rusty pool of very few IP addresses.
Too bad you got us in flagranti.
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 24, 2014 5:30:54 PM | 78
> The average American has never given any thought whatever to Russia or the Russian people. They have been classically-conditioned
All right, mb they're conditioned but then it's something wrong with the Americans. I admit Americans just don't recall Russia 364 days a year until it comes up in the news. But that only day's reaction worth attention.
Generally I agree with you most.
Thanks everyone else for your reaction. Didn't want my question to look like complain, I do know both Americans and Europeans having no radical views on that. Exceptions prove the rule, you know.
Posted by: Sergey | Mar 24, 2014 5:33:16 PM | 79
No actually, I take over Mr. P's. Because I am actually Vladimir Vladmirovich Putin, in drag.
What. Utter. Rot.
Glad I never answered you before and I assure you, I never will again. Go back to Israel, you Hasbara creep.
Posted by: Nora | Mar 24, 2014 5:34:13 PM | 80
> I'am quite sure Nora and Mr. P. act as a team, sometimes P. even takes over Nora's Avatar (and IP, I guess). I won't argue. I studied literature and used to work as playwright some time ago, I learned a little about where to look at in performing lines.
Don't you think a "team" may be formed w/out any conspiracy intention? I didn't study literature but I guess borrowing/adoption is not as criminal on the net as it is in copyright laws.
E.g. I'm pretty sure I'll adopt some sentence forms from local writers - as my teachers. I'd not call it a "team" though.
As for taking over IPs - in some cases it's easier than adopting writing style.
Posted by: Sergey | Mar 24, 2014 5:40:24 PM | 81
The culture of ethical integrity. The notion that there are some things which are always right, such are, honesty, respect for all persons regardless of race, creed or social station; and the notion that there are some things which are always wrong, such are, initiating violence, theft by subterfuge, money worship etc. Americans are taught today that situational ethics and moral relativism are correct and even admirable; we have lost our integrity and without that keystone the rest of the structure is slowly subsiding, crumbling, and drifting away on the wind.
BTW- great link to the Fisk article.
With a Russian-Iranian-Qatari guarantee of “fair” elections in Syria – please hold your breath, readers – who better to rebuild Assad’s rubbled country than Iran and Russia, backed by Qatar’s wealth? Why, they could even invite the workers of Crimea to give them a hand…
is crazy... love it.
Posted by: Chas | Mar 24, 2014 5:41:06 PM | 82
Yes true. I am talking about what G7 said.
Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 24, 2014 5:41:13 PM | 83
Since we've been caught in flagrante, Mr. P., you know damned well I'm no rusty typewriter! :~)
Posted by: Nora | Mar 24, 2014 5:41:34 PM | 84
There IS something wrong with us Americans -- I don't know how any people can be this stupid. I swear we weren't always, but we sure are now! And we've got the attention span of a gnat so I'm not sure how exactly we can get any smarter. Chas in #82 may have a blueprint but how to get people to follow it -- and what brains have they got to follow it with?
As far as Mr. P and I writing alike, I'm curious: I really don't see it, at least not in our writing style. I do think we have similar opinions in a lot of cases, but I'm not sure we got there by the same route.
Posted by: Nora | Mar 24, 2014 5:47:15 PM | 85
Yes, Sir, Mr. president, of course.
But kindly remember that KGB told us to stick to your role of a rusty typewriter!
If ever they find out that we have a secret, smuggled, brand-new (oh well, just 12 yrs old) typewriter, they'll panic and set timochenko on crack again.
I'm somewhat worried though that they did not yet find out about kalithea, our rusty old radio. Didn't we send enough Vodka to our washington KGB resident to get drunk and spill all the beans? I'm worried.
On a more serious note, Nora
we should be glad and happy as these, sometimes even massive, zio-bot attacks confirm that we are on the right track. Frankly, if I were depending on lousy tools like merkel, nuland, or yat the rat and had to see how poorly they perform and how they are overtly ridiculed by Evilman Putin, I'd be pretty pissed off, too ...
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 24, 2014 5:53:48 PM | 86
> And as recent developments (like the new Topol) show, Russia has no intentions to let their lead (vs. mostly 25+ yrs. old and inferior zusa system) shrink; quite the contrary.
Mr P. I have no idea if you're a "team" with Nora but there's something in common b/w you and American ppl (both elites and "conditioned" population) - you *do* consider this planet to be more like a game play field. Mb you lived in the US for too long? Or like Europe looking at the nuclear war back in the old days - like rockets are just passing by in both directions and Europe is just puzzled "wtf?".
There's a good reason for Russia to keep and update nuke forces - the possibility of the devastating 1st strike is increasing - yesterday Poland, today Estonia, tomorrow Kharkov.
Russia is just trying to preserve the ability to strike *back* after the us strike.
Just don't forget - *even if for some mysterious reason the us 1st strike on russia will succeed* - the planet will suck. И живые позавидуют мертвым.
Posted by: Sergey | Mar 24, 2014 5:56:58 PM | 87
I have been thinking lately(in view of the Ukraine drama)about the significance of Kerry the criminal gift to Lavrov back in early january or was it end of december?The potatoes gift hand to a stupefied Lavrov.Well if I am not mistaken apart from Idaho there is another state on this earth which happens to be famous for its agricultural land and its potatoes and it is Ukraine..If this thought was true it would show the under the belt mentality of the Beltway people,smiling at Russia,plotting all along in its own backyard,and having fun at them by this symbolic gift.
what do you all think,is that a very wrong and risible postulation?
I whish the day will come where people will be aware of the german role in all the war and destabilization processes around this planet the last 20 years.Consider these small token of perfidies of a Germany who seems not to want to learn of its mistakes and the millions of death it has caused:
Yugoslavia was a very starting point but then you have in succession ,Iraq 2003 where dispute the public denouement of the war BND agents pointing out to zusa were to bomb.Afghanistan.Lebanon post 2000 and the german boat of the coast in breach of UNSC resolution 1701.Syria and the same boat(spy capacities)off the coasts of Syria in 2011 in syrian sovereign waters helping the "pacifists"in their misdeeds till they were shot at by syrian army.GTZ in Aleppo ,Syria after Aleppo was named in the world heritage by UNESCO under the guise of restorations but in fact mapping the very complex structures of canals and tunnels hundred of years old that constitute an under city on its own and delivering that to the "pacifists"for evidently military purposes.I have many other examples in mind as well.Germany is,it seems,to have an imperial role albeit this time in a very sneaky way.And let us not start to talk about their amoral role in Greece.
Posted by: Nobody | Mar 24, 2014 6:00:23 PM | 88
@82 Chas, I dont think Americans believe at all in moral relativism. If they liked moral relativism, then surely they would not so easily eat up the black-and-white good-vs-evil narratives spoonfed them by the media. If it seems that Americans change their morality as it suits them, its not so much the fault of moral relativism as 1. the fact that doing what is best for onesself IS the American morality, and 2. anyone who is at all different from oneself is to be vilified. Neither of those have anything to do with moral relativism. The problem is not too much open mindedness, but too little. Not that im defending moral relativism per se. There is such a thing as too much open mindedness, but I dont see that here.
Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 24, 2014 6:01:34 PM | 89
> I swear we weren't always, but we sure are now!
Since you say "we" you clearly identify yourself as an American. I guess this is somewhat offensive question but you must have analyzed by now the reasons why you're not the same on this and what's the reason for you been not only "above" but also "to the side". I'd be really glad to hear you opinions on what make some *American* ppl to be more conscious on what's going on the planet.
// I do hope it's not just an hobby admire of some external culture, Russian or not.
Posted by: Sergey | Mar 24, 2014 6:03:27 PM | 90
Another thing .Angela Merkel or better said born Kastner ,divorced Merkel and actual wife of prof Saurer was a very high civil servant in the propaganda machine of the DDR.After the fall of the war we had Kohl discarded,by probable blackmail.And then the resurrection of Angela in the CDU first if I remember correctly as a minister and then very quickly as chancellor.Now Germany has a population over80 millions people why choose her,an incognito in Germany's politics if she was not an asset?of zusa?
Posted by: Nobody | Mar 24, 2014 6:07:25 PM | 91
@90 Simple answer is, Sergey, is probably that all peoples are individuals: A few of a people are always going to be different, even if the majority think alike. Think about whatever country youre in: Maybe most of the people are the same in the way they think, but there are always either individuals or small groups that have different opinions, different moralities, and for lack of a better word, different intelligences (I prefer not to classify people as simply intelligent or unintelligent).
Nora and I, using us as examples because we are both Americans, we may have come to the same conclusion, but that doesnt mean we came at the conclusion the same way. You ask 'what makes some american people to be more conscious', but the answer will probably be very different for just about each individual who does indeed think differently, so im not so sure whether or not anecdotal evidence from a few heterodox american individuals will help you pinpoint any kind of general 'cause' for American heterodoxy, even if its a narrow type of heterodoxy.
Forgive me if that was unclear.
Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 24, 2014 6:09:48 PM | 92
I don't see this as a zero-sum game -- that, to me, is the problem. I lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis and I certainly don't trust whomever is in charge (if there even is anyone truly in charge) on our side to think or act judiciously near anything that glows. But it's precisely our zero-sum thinking that has ruined the lives of Native Americans here right up through Syrians, Ukrainians and now Turks. Russia stopped Hitler at a tremendous cost to themselves. I really don't want it to come to that again, and just wish there was some way we could stop ourselves before too many more innocent lives are ruined or lost.
Posted by: Nora | Mar 24, 2014 6:13:39 PM | 94
@93 Trandniestra is a tiny ass strip of land on the east of Moldova. Literally, its like a thin strip of Moldova on the Ukrainian border going northwest to southeast.
For Russia to take that, they would need to take all of south Ukraine (which I guess they could do since thats the russian speaking part of Ukraine anyway).
Firstly, Im doubtful that Putin would want to take ALL of Eastern Ukraine, because that would mean war. And even if he did, hes already being accused of taking parts of Ukraine by force: The West would bitch loudly if he took an incredibly tiny, incredibly insignificant piece of Moldova. I cant imagine it would be worth it even if the Transdniestrians want it.
Oh and hot damn that is one foxy minister if I must say.
Her doing this will make EU squirm a little bit, but I highly doubt Transdniestria will become part of Russia any time soon, especially if Putin doesnt take east Ukraine first.
Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 24, 2014 6:16:14 PM | 95
Exxon and Rosneft intake in the Ukraine crisis as per http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1757.htm.This site is obviously an affair of russian services but despite its often outageous claims it is always fun to read because between obscenities e.g. between the lines one find always,with a little patience a lot of good informations.I think the russian sevices see it as a postal box in their covert war with zusa.Enjoy
Posted by: Nobody | Mar 24, 2014 6:17:03 PM | 96
regarding my posting @ 88 sorry it meant despite the public denunciation of the war
Posted by: Nobody | Mar 24, 2014 6:19:30 PM | 97
Sorry to correct you.
Russia has explicitely stated (beginning around 2000) that Russia *will* consider a nuclear first strike. Then it was explained by and based on Russia being at serious disadvantage in conventional weapons.
Meanwhile the situation has dramatically changed in the conventional field. Analysts, even in the west, understand that Russia a) has superior capability in conventional war in defending herself b) has considerable advantage in conducting mil. operation in all its near abroad and incl. europe and c) has *not* (yet) capabilities to attack zusa using conventional means.
Yet Russia did *not* change their expressis verbis nuclear first strike option.
And yes, that would make this planet a sag place for the living and the dead. But maybe exactly that will stop certain psychopaths. It did for some decades ...
As far as I'm concerned you are right, I - in those discussion here - look at our planet like a game board. For the simple reason that it *is* exactly that for zio controlled zusa and zeu. When analysing and interpreting situations, particularly ones with a certain mil. potential, I have, of course, to look strategically.
I have other aspects, even romantic ones, but the situation and my vita make me use those strategic glasses in situations like the current one. And frankly, I strongly assume that most of those here who like to read me are interested in that and not in my romantic side or my (very poor) muscial abilities.
As for Nora, frankly, I'm so unnerved, used to, and bored by all the smearing incl. frequent allegations of being a fake, someone else, or whatnot that I don't care anymore (or I use it to make fun).
I'm not even sure that I would like to master english as excellent as Nora does. Frankly, my english is poor in part because on one hand one has to speak that language on an international level but on the other hand it is the language of some of the most evil and uncultivated creatures on earth; so I'm glad with my bad but sufficient english.
If anyone feels that I might be Nora based on my writing; oh well, thanks for the compliment but it's definitely not deserved.
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 24, 2014 6:22:31 PM | 98
One more thing about Transnistria... Apparently its not actually part of Moldova anymore. Moldova considers it to be its own independent state (although they would rather it be part of Moldova), though transnistria is not formally recognized by the UN or any UN member state.
Oh, and I like how Transnitrias flag still has the Hammer and Sickle on it. Might be the last place that still does.
Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 24, 2014 6:26:37 PM | 99
For the past couple of years, all Western media has been portraying Putin as an evil dictator, however.
Posted by: Demian | Mar 24, 2014 4:46:59 PM | 63
same as with president Assad, which led to the flood of righteous sunni jihadis #powerofthepress
Posted by: brian | Mar 24, 2014 6:27:55 PM | 100