February 08, 2014
U.S. EU United To Overthrow Democracy In Ukraine
The flap about the "Fuck the EU" uttering of the U.S. assistant secretary of state Nuland is somewhat disguising the real issue.
The unencrypted cell phone call between Nuland and the U.S. ambassador in Kiev (transcript) was likely recorded by the Ukraine's security services. While the State department tried (as usual these days) to blame the Russians, the tweet of a Russian official that pointed to the call recording came a full day after someone else had tweeted the link to it. The Russian official was thereby not the original source.
The caught call reveals several issues:
1. The U.S. is undeniably trying to overthrow the democratically elected government and the elected president of Ukraine and wants to put one of its opposition puppets into the top job. Nuland herself claims (vid at 7:26) that the U.S. has since the 1990s "invested" over $5 billion for such "democratization" of Ukraine. It is likely that the U.S., as the Ukraine government claims, is paying many of the protesters in Kiev.
2. Some countries in the EU (Germany, Poland and the Baltic countries) also want to overthrow the Ukrainian government but they (especially Merkel) want another puppet, price boxer Klitschko, to become the top dog. But as the rest of the EU is not willing to pay up for buying the Ukraine government for the meager plundering of the already very poor country those EU countries that want a coup have little they can offer and no real way of threatening sanctions or other illegal means.
The "fuck the EU" remark is only about the difference in style. The U.S. wants fast sanction against the legal government and the people of Ukraine and to install its own puppet while the EU wants a different puppet and a less noisy kind of coup.
The dragging behind the scenes is also disguising another important issue. The protest in the Ukraine are led by extreme right wing movements which will not shy away from brutalities or even civil war:
[T]he physical organization of these protests, the building of barricades around squares, much of the camp construction and policing, and the pitched and sometimes deadly battles with police are almost entirely the work of the extreme right. In some of Ukraine’s smaller cities, the local protests and seizures of government buildings appear to have been entirely the work of Pravy Sektor.
Here in Kiev, some members of the ragtag army of pipe-wielding, helmeted marshals and guards say they are supporters of the more mainstream right-wing Ukrainian-nationalist Svoboda (Freedom) party, which won about 10 per cent of the vote in 2012 parliamentary elections and whose leader, Oleh Tyahnybok, has a history of using anti-Semitic insults.
But the people in the largest and most aggressive group, who generally refuse to speak to journalists, are members of Pravy Sektor, an umbrella group of fascist, nationalist, football-hooligan and right-wing extremist gangs – some with neo-Nazi histories – which is generally considered to the right of Svoboda and which tends to be very secretive. It has not, to this point, been a political party.
The U.S. as well as the EU seem to believe that they can keep these forces under control (do they pay them?). But just like the Jihadists in Syria are hardly controllable the fascist in Ukraine will certainly play their own game as soon as the U.S. EU pressure against the legal government gives them a chance to go for it. They even openly threaten to ignite a civil war.
By pushing for the resignation of the elected president of Ukraine the U.S. and the EU are clearly risking, for their own selfish reasons, to throw Ukraine into an internal conflict they would be unable to control.
The media uproar about the "fuck the EU" part is just hiding those lunatic aspects of these plans.
Posted by b on February 8, 2014 at 10:49 AM | Permalink
thanks b. that is a really important point that needs to be drilled home - the interest in the overthrow of democracy, from the folks who always like to spout the platitudes about democracy!
Posted by: james | Feb 8, 2014 11:07:34 AM | 1
The US cares nothing for democracy, or International Law, their support for the head chopping Saudis, some Princes are flying to European whorehouses in gold plated A380,s http://www.pointchaser.com/saudi-princes-500-million-plane/ Nuland's diatribe can only convince the Russians, Chinese and Iranians, that the Empire cares only for power and it will do anything to achieve it, including arming Islamist's and backing openly fascist groups in Ukraine as the straight talker John McQaeda did last month. The US cannot be trusted, anyone dealing with them should act accordingly.
Posted by: harrylaw | Feb 8, 2014 11:33:57 AM | 2
Ukraine should declare both Pyatt and Nuland/Kagan personae non grata
and toss them OUT!!
Posted by: bfrakes | Feb 8, 2014 11:50:25 AM | 3
The fuck the EU video was posted on YouTube already on February 4th. It took two days for anyone to notice.
It seems the video was created by whoever controls the Re Post YouTube channel. The channel posted its first video titled The truth about Klitschko online on Dec 15, 2013. The video is a collage of a rap song and photos of Wladimir Klitschko, in a similar style as the Nuland video. It is unconscionable that the Russian intelligence services had set up the channel two months ago. It does not tell how the Ukrainian YouTube channel got hold of the audio tape though.
P.S. – I did not know that the Klitschko brothers reside in Germany!
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Feb 8, 2014 12:04:49 PM | 4
The "Fuck the EU" remark is, as you say, completely irrelevant. Actually it probably expresses the considered opinions of most of the citizens of Europe, with the exception of the Ukrainian "protesters" who appear to revere it.
The real issue, which the Press studiously avoids, is that the US is clearly seen to be employing in eastern Europe the same tactics that it uses in Syria. The photographs of the "protesters" on the BBC indicate that, far from being rag tag they are actually wearing military issued steel helmets and armed with the same equipment, shields and batons, that riot police use in the United States.
Does anyone doubt that among them are trained snipers? Or that they have both firearms and ammunition to hand? I don't.
This is a Ukrainian al Qaeda operation. And like the AQ we have come to know and love it is very likely to be led by military officers from one or other of the NATO countries.
We, and I am as guilty as anyone, often talk about the American pplan for hegemony. In fact the US has, since about 1947, regarded itself as the de facto hegemon, with the right to set aside all international laws and norms of conduct and do what it chooses because it is the effective Sovereign on the planet.
The role off the media in this matter- choreographed by the State Department's spokesman- to change the subject from the US being caught red handed in a campaign of terrorism, is wholly in accord with John Pilger's latest piece, which recently appeared in The Gusardian
Posted by: bevin | Feb 8, 2014 12:53:35 PM | 5
Please excuse typos. Or laugh at them.
Posted by: bevin | Feb 8, 2014 12:54:39 PM | 6
so Ukraine has 3 choices
1)Klitschko (EU choice/perhaps Ukrainian peoples choice)
2)Yanukovich (Russias choice /also perhaps Ukrainian peoples choice)
3)Yatsenyuk technocrat party (is crook)
( US choice / and nobody else )
ps EU needs to move fast
Euro elections in few months----rise of anti-EU, and Eurosceptic parties
(particularly UK/France/Germany/Austria and counting)
Posted by: chris m | Feb 8, 2014 1:09:18 PM | 7
It seems the video was created by whoever controls the Re Post YouTube channel. It is unconscionable that the Russian intelligence services had set up the channel two months ago.
Petri, are you sure you mean "unconscionable"? That means, more or less, unforgivable. If what you mean is that you know for a fact that the Russian intelligence services set up the channel two months ago, please tell us how you know this.
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Feb 8, 2014 1:36:09 PM | 8
That's the only way EUrocrats feel they are needed: organize mayhem and say "TINA". They just boost the extreme-right everywhere in Europe.
Posted by: Mina | Feb 8, 2014 1:52:17 PM | 9
"King" of Jordan Abdullah II unexpectedly in Veracruz, México (La Jornada, 080214)! I remeber the "visit" of a similar puppet (of Qatar) to Gaza. Very soon later prominent resistance Palestinians was surgical bombed by coward neighbourhoods. I remember also a gracious cartoon showing Ahmadinehad begging a Mexican Genie of the bottle to "unleash our anger upon them". It was ridiculous at that time but not now. Now I see an "intelligence" from cruel (and coward) neighbourhood ordaining a puppet genie to explore possibilities. He must be in Sochi enjoying not "exploring" business with local puppet!
Posted by: Rihard | Feb 8, 2014 2:56:37 PM | 10
First: Good points, b.
so Ukraine has 3 choices
1)Klitschko (EU choice/perhaps Ukrainian peoples choice)
2)Yanukovich (Russias choice /also perhaps Ukrainian peoples choice)
3)Yatsenyuk technocrat party (is crook)
( US choice / and nobody else )
While at first glance it might look like that I don't think that's true. Actually I guess it'll end up quite differently.
But first let's have a necessary look at the context and some factors.
Politics is rarely surprising (well, maybe for the un- or wrongly informed people). Actually almost everything has a long pretext which themselves sometimes create telltale signs.
Also politics is rarely black and white, sharp-edged; usually it's more like negotiating and dealing, nobody getting all but both getting something. In this regards the "american century" (of about 30-60 years, depending on ones counting) actually was a - quite possibly planned and designed - exception due to zusas blunt military based aggressive style ("Get 10 mio$ or get a bullet to your head") working strongly in it'Äs favour. This phase, however, is quite evidently passee with a strong Russia and China.
Obviously zusas attack on Ukraine was precisely timed to fall in Russias weakest period short before the Olympic games (when Russia was basically forced to look friendly) both by zusa and zeu. zeu wanted to bluntly push through Ukraines zeu association during that time period and in the most anti-Russian version feasible. zusa again basically piggy backed on that undertaking introducing both the zamerican way (aggression) and a shift towards the zamerican candidate.
Which actually underlines what I said earlier about zusa having lost it's superpower position since long. Just 10 years ago zusa would have been strong enough to not care about an opportune time; they'd just gone it like a tank. Nowadays, however, zusa must include a lot of factors, one of the most important ones being that they can risk to confront the Russian only at select points in time of weak moments of Russia. Even worse, they are (among others financially) so much down that they must, what a shame, leveredge zeus force and bend that a little rather than simply going it all alone.
The other IMO interesting hint is that the Krim parliament is beginning to quite openly demand Russian guarantees of protection.
Actually, this is the only, or at least the very, very strongly preferred, was for Russia to enter a confrontation, in particular when it is loaded with military potential.
Last but not least, the "fuck" leak was a brilliant move by Russia to not only hamper zusas Ukraine progress but to actually break the whole strategy and playing out some new cards for Yanukovich. Among other goodies Y. can buy quite some time now (with all the confusion, the risk of many Ukrainians who legitimately demonstrated but will definitely not support traiting their country, zusa and zeu rearranging relations bot in front and behind the curtain, i.e. towards the people and in between the politicians, etc.).
Both zusas and zeus major interest is in splitting Russia and Ukraine and in weakening and preying on an important partner of Russia. The country itself is rather uninteresting, somewhat less so for eu, who, however, simply can't afford such a financially and economically broken new partner-country.
Which all together hints at the outcome I consider the most probable one.
I think that things will for some time get somewhat quieter in Ukraine. Both, Yanukovich and the "opposition" must rearrange - and re-assess! - their "troups", assets, and positions. Which is just perfect for Russia and its Olympic games.
During the next weeks there will be increasing movements, demonstrations and demands of the pro-Russia part of Ukraine (basically the east and the south incl. Krim) which just happens to be the economic core of Ukraine, for more influence, possibly separation and protection from Russia. (It will of course, have many middle tones but that's what it will come down to).
Be it formally (splitting in two countries) or be it otherwise, Ukraine will de facto be split and the pro-Russia part will demand - and get - Russian military support, most probably (and if any possible) without fighting but in the form of (temp) mil. bases, mil. cooperation, etc.
And the west, be that zeu or zusa or whoever, will get the halfway dead and worn out - ad not any more trustworthy for Russia - western part of Ukraine. Chances are that sooner or later the western part will beg to join Russia, too.
This way, zusa and zeu will get at least a (small) part of what they wanted and so will Russia, albeit a much larger, healthier and attractive - and strategically important - part.
Can and will zusa risk a war over Ukraine? No way. They can't afford that both financially and militarily. And they need not. Their politicians can - and will - seel whatever little they get out of it as success.
What will zeu do? Quite probably they'll take a deep breath in gratitude that they got out of their stupid adventure relatively cheaply. Can they risk a war or even just a big mouth? No way. After all the dirty things they tried to pull of in Ukraine they must be more than happy if Russia doesn't advance right into europe. Militarilly zeu is an insignificant nobody. And financially they are in deep trouble as everyone knows.
Ceterum censeo israel americanamque delenda esse.
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 8, 2014 5:27:06 PM | 11
Exactly, how come Ukraine accept these nudelman or nuland or wahtever her name is into Ukraine and why keep the ambassador that try to get a regime-change in Ukraine? Kick them out!
Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 8, 2014 5:27:49 PM | 12
I'm not sure that the leak did not come from Washington.
If it did it could have come either from a dissident, warning people of what was being done, or a neo-con revealing US policy so there is no backtracking.
Much of the more idiotic US foreign policy springs from the perception that "credibility" must be maintained- that the government must achieve its objectives or risk losing the respect of other countries.
More recently "credibility" has not necessarily involved success-Iraq and Afghanistan can hardly be called that- provided that, as in both those countries, and Libya and Syria, the place is wrecked so that the world can see that "Uncle Sam has been here."
As to the Olympics, I'm not sure that they do not work to Russia's advantage. After all the best response to these provocations is to keep cool, not get panicked into fighting fire with fire, let the protest fade away in the cold, wait for the public to call for order, given enough rope the fascists will hang themselves or some of their opponents.
Posted by: bevin | Feb 8, 2014 6:11:13 PM | 13
'So AIPAC and the other components of the Israel Lobby, which are marching in lock step on this issue, are basically advocating a series of wars in which the United States will do the fighting and dying to make the world safe for Israel. They have chosen to go on the offensive over the issue of Syria to head off any developing peace agenda. '
Posted by: brian | Feb 8, 2014 10:12:40 PM | 15
I've been thinking about the larger picture, and in a way, I think Nuland's remark does have some significance. I see it in this context: there is a real and ever-increasing danger that a large bloc of nations will break out of the dollar system. If Russia, China, Iran and Syria do that simultaneously, then the dollar will immediately lose a lot of its international leverage, and then the question of Europe will become critical to the dollar's survival as the global reserve currency. And I think Nuland feels antagonised by the EU, because she doesn't trust it to support the dollar in such a situation. If Europe joined the anti-dollar coalition, that would be the end of the dollar internationally. And the dollar really only works domestically, for the USA, because it is a reliable means of holding down the prices of imports. If the US had to pay realistic prices for its imports, its economy would cease to function.
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Feb 8, 2014 11:51:45 PM | 17
"If the US had to pay realistic prices for its imports, its economy would cease to function."
The US is on thin ice in so many ways. It is tightening the lid on the pressure cooker of course, which means when it does blow it is going to be extremely swift and violent.
Dimitry Orlov, I think, spells out the potential for collapse better than anybody. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjOdNtdto_4
Posted by: guest77 | Feb 9, 2014 12:11:49 AM | 18
Mnar A. Muhawesh @MnarMuh 4h
Look who's contributing to Mintpress Wikipedia page with lies @Navsteva @Syricide @snarwani @pmsxa @PhilGreaves01 pic.twitter.com/g4iDk3l7B3
Boy George is a known troll on the syria issue..wikipedia has long had quality control issues
Posted by: brian | Feb 9, 2014 12:43:23 AM | 19
So why is it that Merkel wants to change the Ukrainian government? I haven't understood this point.
I can't see there is any strong desire elsewhere in the EU for regime change.
Posted by: alexno | Feb 9, 2014 3:56:43 AM | 22
Why? Same reason US/EU want regime change.
Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 9, 2014 4:07:29 AM | 23
Same reason US/EU want regime change.
Your remark, I am sorry to say, is meaningless and incomprehensible. EU interests, you'll be surprised to hear, are not the same as those of the US.
Looking around me, I see zero interest in Europe in overturning the Ukraine regime. So what is Merkel's interest, if she's playing a different game?
Posted by: alexno | Feb 9, 2014 4:57:40 AM | 24
@23, Germany is better able than any other country to exploit cheap labor in Ukraine, as they have in most of the East Block countries entering EU. Germany's manufacturing sector has moved factories wholesale as well as built new ones from scratch.
Posted by: okie farmer | Feb 9, 2014 5:05:50 AM | 25
@alexno So why is it that Merkel wants to change the Ukrainian government? I haven't understood this point.
I can't see there is any strong desire elsewhere in the EU for regime change.
It is Lebensraum in the economic version. Poland is btw the one country that is pressing more than Germany on this. Poland wants to get back its old size, location and population.
Posted by: b | Feb 9, 2014 5:50:29 AM | 26
26) Add - it is the consumer market German industry would be interested in. People have not really woken up to the fact that when they stop favoring local goods they destroy their employment.
Posted by: somebody | Feb 9, 2014 6:09:43 AM | 27
27) Having said that, young people would profit from a borderless EU labor market. Presumably Western firms would continue their itinery from Bratislava to Sofia to Kiew looking for cheap high quality skilled labor - thereby in the long term raising wages for everybody.
It would be in Ukraine's interest to be able to have it both ways. The EU has to come to an agreement with Russia, I assume that is part of the split with the US. This agreement would have consequences for NATO, too. Basically US planning is still in cold war mode. I don't think European is.
Nationalism is so outdated.
Posted by: somebody | Feb 9, 2014 6:39:10 AM | 28
This here is the - probably correct description of the view from Russia
Let us not forget that Ukraine's woes are largely a Russian foreign policy affliction. Weeks before Yanukovych decided, at the 11th hour, that closer union with Europe was not in his country's best interests after all, he flew to Moscow for a clandestine meeting with Putin. It was shortly thereafter that Yanukovych reversed course, citing a need to "normalize relations with Russia." Euromaidan began as a contest between Moscow and Brussels, but its purview is far broader now.
For several years, Putin has been cobbling together a rival to the EU: a so-called "Eurasian Union," to be unveiled by 2015. Kazakhstan and Belarus are already on board. Armenia and Kyrgyzstan are likely to follow soon. Putin has spoken of "a single historical destiny" for Russia's former Soviet republics. But Ukraine is the clincher, the sweetest spoil. It's one that Moscow will not give up without a fight.
It seems more prudent to envision a Russian stamp-out (à la Russia's 2008 involvement in South Ossetia and Abkhazia) than to throw up one's hands and cry "Yugoslavia!" as some observers have done. The latter scenario implies that Ukraine will collapse inwards into ethnically-charged civil war, which is unlikely. The former acknowledges Russia's heavy hand. Already, Kremlin advisers have alluded to a future division of Ukraine along East-West lines with West going to Brussels and the East joining with Moscow.
This here is Bloomberg in September on some Russian-Ukrainian trade fun involving chocolate
Posted by: somebody | Feb 9, 2014 7:31:13 AM | 29
Are you assuming that ZATO's goals aren't to simply blow the Ukraine up? If that's the goal, all that is needed is to keep funding radicals.
Posted by: Ozawa | Feb 9, 2014 8:30:40 AM | 30
@ 30. NATO's goals are not the important issue.
The important issue is whether the USA's tried-and-tested Overthrow technique can be nipped in the bud during the embryonic phase. This is a test of whether Putin can help Ukraine to chop its "uprising" off at the socks, or not. If he can't, then it will be used against Russia. If he can, then NATO will have to do a re-think.
So, for Putin, this is a high stakes game.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 9, 2014 9:18:34 AM | 31
It is Lebensraum in the economic version. Poland is btw the one country that is pressing more than Germany on this
Where I'm sitting it sounds more like madness. Europe should be sorting out its own economic problems before taking on an economic basketcase like Ukraine. It's not like Europe has not got enough of its own economic basketcase's without bringing in a new one in.
I would suggest the EU first, fix the Western European economies (France, Ireland, Spain, Italy), second bring the Eastern European bloc up to the standards of the West. Only then should we worry about Ukraine's economy.
At this time the European Union needs 46 million poor Ukrainians like we need a straitjacket in a swimming pool. But I suppose fucking Russia is more important than the economic health of the EU.
Posted by: Colm O' Toole | Feb 9, 2014 9:49:43 AM | 32
F-EU is only one of the numerous symptoms of US arrogance, interference and hypocrisy that are increasing as the US power is slowly waning in the world.
Vickie Nuland is in the same line as Condie Rice and Hillary Clinton but in more vulgar and stupid. I doubt he will survive that leak.
On another subject: How would the outcome Ukraine affect Bashar al Assad?
Opinion: Why Assad should keep an eye on Ukraine
So what can the outcome of the Ukrainian crisis mean for Assad’s and Russia’s positions on the Syrian crisis? There are at least two scenarios. The support from the EU and the US for the opposition in Ukraine will put Russian diplomacy on edge, and thus possibly make it more intransigent in its position on Syria. Serious tensions between the West and Russia will be inevitable if Yanukovych loses the battle with the opposition and is replaced by a pro-Western government. Assad would benefit.
If strong Russian backing helps Yanukovych fend off the opposition’s attempts to remove him and thus remains Ukraine’s strongman, or if he is simply replaced by another pro-Russian hardliner, that could work against Assad. More comfortable where it matters most, Russian diplomacy might then be more amenable to the idea of a transitional government in Syria without Assad, provided it receives guarantees about its basic interests in the Levant. The recent visit to Moscow by Ahmed Jarba, the leader of the opposition’s Syrian National Coalition, can be interpreted as an indication of that.
Posted by: Virgile | Feb 9, 2014 9:52:32 AM | 33
It's not 'Vickie', it's 'Toria'.
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Feb 9, 2014 11:27:47 AM | 34
"I would suggest the EU first, fix the Western European economies (France, Ireland, Spain, Italy), second bring the Eastern European bloc up to the standards of the West."
I'm certain they intend to fix the Western European economies by wrecking the Eastern European ones - especially by putting their utilities under privatized control and chewing through their labor pool and natural resources and watching the cash pour in...
Posted by: guest77 | Feb 9, 2014 11:30:55 AM | 35
Virgile 33, that oped is nonsense. The US interest in Syria has one of its main goals to destroy Russia's influence in the Levant. Contrary to this bs:
"...Russian diplomacy might then be more amenable to the idea of a transitional government in Syria without Assad, provided it receives guarantees about its basic interests in the Levant..."
And Russia certainly knows US wants to absolutely destroy even a semblance of Russian influence in the Levant.
Posted by: okie farmer | Feb 9, 2014 11:38:10 AM | 36
31) Ukraine is like a Rorschach test everybody reading their own problems into it.
What I see is Ukrainian oligarchs hedging the government and the opposition for the best deal there is.
Posted by: somebody | Feb 9, 2014 11:38:40 AM | 37
From this week's Swoop
Although they would much have referred to have avoided the embarrassment of the leaked phone call about Ukraine, State Department officials are drawing comfort from the fact that this projected a strongly pro-active US policy in Ukraine. They contrast this with the more hesitant posture of the European Union. As a State Department strategist commented privately to us: “We are trying to wrest a major prize away from Russia. In pursuing that, some occasional lapse of diplomatic manners is inconsequential.” The struggle over Ukraine further illustrates the sharp deterioration in relations with Russia. In advance of the opening ceremony of the Sochi Olympic Games much of the US commentary had focused on human rights, corruption and security, with the Department of Homeland Security adding an official security warning about travel there. Even if they are successful, the Games will do little to soften Russia’s, and especially President Putin's, negative image. Already some media analysis is more flattering, our sources uniformly report that the tension with Russia is now deep set and that it will continue to mark US policy.
The U.S. does not care if its igniting a civil war in Ukraine. The more damage to Russia the better.
The EU would like regime change in Ukraine but not civil war. But the danger of some civil war, then Russian intervention and then global conflict is quite real and by pushing for regime change the EU is as much guilty as the U.S. is.
The systematic anti-Russian campaign in the U.S. and elsewhere is much a payback for the lost U.S. position in the Syria case. It is childish but that is how the Obama administration generally behaves.
Posted by: b | Feb 9, 2014 12:14:30 PM | 38
@38 b - thanks for that. i agree with your viewpoint on the obama admin. i think this extends to a lot of usa admins in recent times.. the un bashing, or the french bashing - the usa just doesn't seem to understand that dictating how others have to run their affairs is none of their f'n business, which goes right into the usa's ongoing foreign affairs policy - meddling, or outright war to serve it's own narrow interests..
"a strongly pro-active US policy in Ukraine." why the f is the usa even interested in this? they can't take care of their own country, but figure they need to meddle and f up others countries too? the usa sure knows how to make a lot of enemies and it is going to come back to them one day soon.
Posted by: james | Feb 9, 2014 12:45:25 PM | 39
The problem is that it seems the US has everything to gain and nothing to lose by all of these shenanigans. This isn't like setting fire to your neighbors house, this is like setting fire to some house in the next town over.
That said, though the US may play a tough, unscrupulous, utterly deadly game with the lives of millions, but it absolutely cannot respond to any serious Russian moves in the Ukraine, just as they had to sit idly by and watch Russia secure her position in Georgia. The failure to do in Syria what the US has done almost without a thought all over the rest of the globe said it all: The US is done. The American people are tired. The US military is in ambivalent.
So let the Russians do what they must to secure their interests in the Ukraine. They should maybe make some effort to come to terms with the German interests there, but they should do absolutely everything they must to eject the US pigs from their frontiers.
Can you imagine the US people ready to go to war over the Ukraine any more than they were willing to go to war over Syria? R2P doesn't compete ideologically with the US populations conviction that the US must butt out of other people's business.
The Obama administration has no political capital at home or abroad, and what follows - Democrat or Republican - will have even less.
Posted by: guest77 | Feb 9, 2014 1:05:23 PM | 40
When I traveled to Venezuela, I heard a gentleman speak about the media and fourth generation war, and the description he provided still sticks with me today, and it 100% applies to the situation in the Ukraine:
There is a term in use at the moment, it is “fourth generation war”. Fourth generation war is not fought with rifles, with tanks, or with bombs. Fourth generation war, like the one in Iraq, or like the one that started in Iraq and in other parts of the world, is fought in the minds of people. And your enemy seeks to control all of your territory by telling your soldiers, your people, that you are their enemy. If my people, my army, my interests, my culture, are here and I am a part of them, my enemy tells my people here that “hey, your enemy is that guy there in front of you.” If my enemy convinces my people that I am their enemy, who will they kill? They won’t kill their enemy, their real true enemy, they’ll kill me. So that is a fourth generation war. The one that is fought here with psychological warfare. We are not anymore calling them means of communication anymore, because they are not means of communication, they are a means of mass destruction. They are means of conscience destruction. They are means of political propaganda spreading. They are not means of communication. They do not communicate. They impose, terrorize, control.
Posted by: guest77 | Feb 9, 2014 1:16:28 PM | 41
Like all good questions, Alexno's @22 has lots of correct answers.
What the US neo-cons, and their Polish friends, want is a cordon sanitaire. The Poles see the Ukraine as theirs. And, if they can't get it all they will be ahead of the game just to have the west back.
The US position is slightly different: the neo-cons want to push Russia back and expose Belarus which is the next target. But the real objective is to build a barrier between western Europe and Russia.
The logic of trade and deepening relations between the old EU and Russia is inescapable. But it poses a threat to the US dominance in Europe, which goes back to 1945, and Atlanticism itself.
Germany, in particular, feels that it would benefit greatly from improved trade with Russia and the Shanghai Cooperation organisation, including China.
Such an arrangement would marginalise the US, driving it out of Europe, back to Airstrip One, and undermining its strategic ambitions.
Merkel, of course, and the German ruling class (like other EU elites) is deeply infected with Yankeephilia, compounded with a fear of offending their master. So the signals from the EU are mixed: some, hyenas like the Poles and the British, are gung-ho for US adventures; others, particularly those with industrial bases, such as the Germans, or residual Gaullist notions, like the French, are more inclined to attempt to calm the adventurers down. If only, in France's case, to return to the farcical recreation of the African Empire (Good luck in Algeria, M.Hollande!)
Then there is the matter of finance, in which Wall St/The City rules and insists on draconian social policies which, in mainland Europe, are bound to lead to a political explosion if persisted in. Which is another reason for shrewd European politicos edging away from the neo-con/neo-liberal alliance and looking eastwards for trade and downwards-to their own people- for political support.
Rule One is that countries like the US choose their leaders and policy makers in a manner which inevitably leads to the promotion of self obsessed conformists, who would kill half the world for a comfortable life, carrying out policies which have failed for decades but are beyond question, in that anyone who dares to point out that they don't work and are suicidal, is excluded from influential positions.
Hence idiots like Nuland running the empire into the ground and, equally significant, the eager agreement of the Yes Man Ambassador, who, one suspects knows better but dare say nothing, lest he end up in the Benghazi Consulate next month.
Posted by: bevin | Feb 9, 2014 1:32:47 PM | 42
@42 -brilliant post bevin! i like the fact you've added humour to make it that much more enjoyable to read. you touch on something that was in rowans post @17 - currency issues.
@17 - in regards to this idea of the us currency being knocked off it's pedestal - i do think this is a major issue weaving into the geo-political landscape that is hard to get a read on. it was talked about before that iraq prior to 2003 were talking of trading oil in euros. i often wonder how difficult it would be to denominate oil in euros instead of us$? i am sure some countries would really benefit from this with the us suffering the most. when i think of countries like russia and iran, i am sure they think about this too.. i don't know how it all overlaps, but i think oil is the one resource that if denominated in a different currency, would have a major impact on world affairs.
Posted by: james | Feb 9, 2014 1:54:40 PM | 43
@alexno #24. It's not the EU per se, it's the overarching Anglo-American Establishment (read Carroll Quigley, Anthony Sutton) conducting neo-colonialism through IMF and World Bank and their Structural Adjustment Programs - you MUST read/watch John Perkinks an "Economic Hitman" and Naomi Klein "Schock Doctrine"!
Posted by: ProPeace | Feb 9, 2014 1:55:10 PM | 44
@b #26 "Poland wants to get back its old size, location and population." - absolutely NOT TRUE, neither Polish government nor people want this except for some fringe groups of society encouraged by foreign-paid agents. Poland is forced to play a role of an enforces by the Anglo-American establishment but the officials has been very, very reserved about the whole chutzpah, especially that there are still living survivors and the memory within polish society of the unspeakable atrocities, absolutely barbaric acts committed by the Ukrainian nationalists during massacres against Polish population of 100,000 in Volyn in 1943. The heirs to those inhumane Ukrainian savages, political groups of the nationalists are one of the most vocals "peaceful protesters" on Maydan. There are some elements of the Polish political opposition (Law&Justice) that has openly supported that attempt at another "color revolution" but that's understandable, because they take their orders from The City, Wall St and Israel.
Posted by: ProPeace | Feb 9, 2014 2:08:44 PM | 45
More Victoria Nuland videos
Yep, it is about the EU, the IMF and "creating a climate for investment". And, by the way, the US has spent 5 billion on "democracy" in Ukraine.
Posted by: somebody | Feb 9, 2014 2:18:56 PM | 46
Wow, the funniest/worst propaganda site I have ever seen. And of course it was linked through at Prison Planet. Who reads this garbage?
Key points: The obvious taped phone call was obviously produced by obvious Russians who obviously have something called "voice cloning technology", and the decline in the Ukrainian population is not due to the no-liberal social collapse pushed onto Ukraine by the west during the 1990s, but instead is due to Russia's "using carcinogenic chemicals in the water and air" of the Ukraine.
This isn't the first time Russia has used propaganda to aid them in getting what they want. Black propaganda or vital disinformation was heavily used to discredit America during the Korean War. Disinformation included reporting that Americans were killing villagers and committing rape on women...
That the US killed villagers in Korea was all a Russian lie. You heard it from the mindless... er... Mindful Patriot first.
BTW: Alex Jones has his theories and I have mine: Alex Jones is a US security state plant, specifically sent to Austin to undo the good, solid work that Alternative Views TV did there.
Posted by: guest77 | Feb 9, 2014 3:06:23 PM | 47
Thanks guest 77 for your review of my site. As they say there's no such thing as bad publicity.
~The Mindful Patriot.
P.S. WE ARE WATCHING :)
Posted by: The Mindful Patriot | Feb 9, 2014 4:35:14 PM | 48
Are you assuming that ZATO's goals aren't to simply blow the Ukraine up? If that's the goal, all that is needed is to keep funding radicals.
Basically yes. But then, looking closer, it's more complex.
One issue, of course, is what Hoarsewhisperer intelligently mentioned; it's a test, too, a test also to find out (and cheaply) how far zusa can go with the Russians.
But also zeu plays a major role. On one hand, of course, zusa can - and does, to a degree, say "fucke them". On the other hand, though, zeu is somewhat troublesome with their euro but at the same time still accepting and even somewhat supporting the dollar as "world currency" and accepting the strictly zusa-led zato as the leading mil. alliance (and not having sth. like a zeu military), zusa needs zeu very much and can not really afford to seriously piss them off. Also, one should not forget that zeu is the only major agglomerate/"association of countries" in the world that stays quite loyal to zusa; even worse (for zusa) zeu isn't far from double the citizens of zusa and bringing/keeping the "western block", read, zusa and their satellites, colonies and subservient "partners", to at least the range of the magical 1 bln. people (currently about 850 mln) that is important when talking with future super powers like China and India. Europe being europe and having all that history, there are many other factors to consider, e.g. geostrategic ones but in summary the situation is that zusa might want to see Ukraine as "destroy it and be done" but they can't. But, of course, that's their primary interest there.
One other point rarely mentioned and well worth mentioning is this:
While it might superficially look like zusa is all about testing, provoking and harming Russia, there is also much - well founded - fear in the game, albeit rarely seen.
Actually it stems from the cold war (or even beyond) and it goes like this:
If Russia, among other reasons in order to gain access to ice free sea routes and in particular directly to the mediterranean sea, ever attacked Europe there
a) wouldn't be that much zusa could do being far away and having quite limited resources on the ground.
b) would be exorbitant costs and ugly logistics involved to keep their troups in europe going while Russia would fight in their near abroad.
c) would be the very much feared danger of Russia occupying Germany (actually, they might be welcome by many) Austria and Italy.
Such Russia would, and could relatively easily, divide Europe in half, basically almost automatically winning eastern Europe, too, having win access to the North Sea/Atlantic and med. sea, such creating excellent defense as well as positions for further attacks (e.g. zuk).
All in all this is THE nightmare for zusa and all their actions in Europe and against Russia have this in mind, too.
The fact that Russia gets stronger and stronger while zusa gets weaker and weaker doesn't help neither.
Russia, on the other side, is not at all interested in territorial gains. What little it desires can be gained by peaceful cooperation, too. The problem for Russia was that they stupidly ignored rule #1 when dealing with zusa: do not trust them. zamericans are spine- culture- and honourless scum and will realiably break any contract they sign. Which zusa, of course did. And which brought Russia who basically was in a peaceful detente and build-up mode an ugly surprise; they had to quite suddenly and quickly rebuild their military way sooner and quicker than they had planned to.
My personal mid-term guess is that Russia, while not searching territorial gains, will conquer, albeit more economically and politically than militarily, major parts of europe, in particular germany which is kind of a perfect partner and also the economic and industrial core or Europe.
Simply because Russia can't - and won't - allow or accept the zusa thugs to continue terrorizing and harming them. Of course, memories of all the unspeakable horrors zusa created in Russia and in the world will fuel Russias readiness to kill the zamerican thugs once and for all.
One more reason to love Putin and to pray for him.
Ceterum censeo israel americanamque delenda esse.
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 9, 2014 4:37:08 PM | 49
Frankly, I don't think anyone gives a batshit about what poland wants. poland acted like a cheap whore during 100 years, (co-)created lots of trouble and pain and, just by the way, basically stole all its territories.
I assume - and profoundly desire - poland to cease existing rather soon.
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 9, 2014 4:39:51 PM | 50
50) we know you are a fascist - go look into the mirror.
Posted by: somebody | Feb 9, 2014 5:47:34 PM | 51
Germany's position is in some ways similar to Turkey's as I laid out in some previous post. Germany has much to gain by being a terminus of the new silk road that leads through Russia, Central Asia, and ends up in Shanghai. Russia has enough resources to fuel both Germany and China, as well as offering a large market. But if Germany hitches her wagon too close to the domineering NATO forces, she will lose a lot of prestige and trust in the developing world.
The question, I guess, is will the Germans be able to shake off their history and turn east with a mind to doing business and not to domination. The US/UK prefers Germany take an aggressive stance and will prod it to do so, much as they prodded Turkey into waging war on Syria only to be left holding the bag, so could Germany find itself in a similar way in the Ukraine. The Russians must let the German elite know, in no uncertain terms, that this is unacceptable. That the days of Germany looking east as a cat looks at a canary are long gone.
Russia would benefit greatly in prestige and with the working classes of Europe by again allowing itself to turn leftwards and by subtly supporting the anti-austerity movements in Europe. Russia has, to its credit, kept the friends it made during the Soviet Union and it should expand on this by supporting an internationalist ideology at home and abroad, continuing to work with all who seek shelter from the US Empire. This includes at the very, very least, the ALBA Bloc and the Resistance Axis. This will give them some advantage in German politics as well.
@48 Glad to help. I feel it is important to support the fine arts - in your case, fiction writing. May you go far. Your only problem, I think, will be getting the taste of US butt out of your mouth each night.
Posted by: guest77 | Feb 9, 2014 6:15:35 PM | 52
Rowan Berkeley #8
unconscionable = inconceivable
Meant to say: It is inconceivable that the Russian intelligence services had set up the channel two months ago.
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Feb 9, 2014 6:18:05 PM | 53
52) Germany has no taste for war.
There is - according to Reuters - this Russian offer
He said Yanukovich had done all he could to avoid violence, in contrast to the opposition, and accused leaders in the Ukrainian-speaking west of the country of being "separatists".
Russia, he said, was concerned that the country should not split apart. But he suggested that a form of federalism be introduced to give regions substantial powers - including over their budgets and even over international relations.
Citing the example of Greenland, which enjoys substantial autonomy from Denmark and unlike the Danish state is not part of the European Union, he said western and eastern Ukraine could have different economic relations with the EU and Russia.
"Today, economic, cultural and human ties between the regions of eastern and western Ukraine are less than the links between southeastern Ukraine and Russia and between the western regions and the EU," Glazyev said, suggesting eastern regions might want to join a customs union that Putin favors.
The East is the industrial region, the South are Black Sea resorts close to the Caucasus, the West is vast - real vast - arable land.
What the EU does not need, really, really does not need is growth in agriculture.
This here is - also Reuters - the resolution of Merkel's conservatives who would have to be the ones to push this (but are not that much into it, really)
Das gemeinsame Angebot der EU und der USA, die Ukraine mit kurzfristigen Hilfen zu unterstützen und damit vor einem Staatsbankrott zu bewahren, wird vom CDU-Bundesvorstand begrüßt. "Im Gegenzug erwarten wir von der Kiewer Regierung Reformen, die die Menscherechte sichern und die Wirtschaft des Landes beleben", heißt es in dem Papier. Ziel müsse es sein, dass die Ukraine sowohl zur EU als auch zu Russland gute und enge Beziehungen pflegen könne.
Translation of the last sentence - the goal has to be that Ukraine is able to have close relationship to the EU and to Russia.
Posted by: somebody | Feb 9, 2014 6:50:00 PM | 55
Actually, this is very true: The Anglo-American Axis: Losing Ukraine, Losing Europe
I have the impression that Putin is not just aiming at “taking back” Ukraine from the West. Actually he intends to use the Ukraine issue in a very subtle way to establish a trilateral agreement — EU (or at least part of it), Ukraine, Russia.
Russian spokesmen and a number of Russian controlled media have hinted repeatedly to this solution. A discussion on this very issue has taken place and has led to an internal debate among EU countries (especially, don’t be surprised, Germany, whose relation is the biggest prize for Russia).
Maybe some preliminary accords were “pre-discussed” with Europeans leaders now eager to get a larger margin of sovereign autonomy. This scared the hell out of Washington and London despite the many signs of thawing between Moscow and the West. Or better it has scared the hell out of a certain still very strong faction within the Anglo-american establishment. Hence a series of pressures have been applied to European countries, especially Germany. Germany has been asked to give a “proof of love.”
For the Anglo-Americans, namely the US and Britain, the EU must be deprived of any independent ability to move in the direction of an Eurasian strategy.
The scheme invoked by Donald Rumsfeld (use “New” Europe against “Old” Europe, i.e. against Europe) still is the party line. Europe must be weakened — suffocated by the embrace of Wall Street and the City of London, pushed into an escalating masochistic looting of its own economy and population, rocked by scandals to deprive it of any effective leadership, and constantly involved in aggressive military adventures — but above all, any sign –even the mildest – of cooperation with Russia must be dissuaded in the most energetic way. That is a line that must never be crossed. So, with the ongoing Ukrainian crisis we see at what level of open interference and blackmail the Anglo-American representatives can reach in order to impose to Europe “what is good for them”.
Posted by: ProPeace | Feb 9, 2014 6:51:24 PM | 56
I don't present this as any dynamic that relates directly to our world today. But it is instructive to look at how a modern military power envisioned a "divide and conquer" policy operating in Europe, just some 70 years ago:
In a memorandum sent to Rosenberg in March 1942, Nazi anthropologist Otto Reche argues for the disappearance of 'Russia' both as an ethnic and political concept, and the promotion of a new plethora of ethnicities based on medieval Slavic tribes such as the Vyatichs and Severians. Even White Ruthenia, and in particular the Ukraine ("in its present extent") he deemed to be dangerously large. Heinrich Himmler had already advocated for such a general policy towards Eastern Europe in 1940. A top-secret memorandum in 1940 from Himmler entitled "Thoughts on the Treatment of Alien Peoples in the East" expressed that the Germans must bring back people that were of Germanic blood and were racially suitable back to the Reich and to fight the struggle against the Jewish Bolsheviks who he refers to in the memorandum as the subhuman people of the East [Untermenschenvolk des Osten], and for them to acknowledge and cultivate as many ethnic splinter groups in German-occupied Europe as possible, including Ukrainians, "White Russians" (Belarusians), Gorals (see Goralenvolk), Lemkos, and Kashubians. The Eastern Ministry responded that Reche's emphasis on the plurality of ethnic groups in the Soviet Union was correct "in itself", but was skeptical about his proposal to resurrect obscure and extinct nationalities. He defended his proposal by arguing that "[sic] in the area of ethnicity much has already been successfully brought back to life!", but inquired as to whether names connected with the main towns in each area might serve this role instead. A memo date written by Dr. Erich Wetzel (NSDAP Office of Racial Policy) on April 1942 details the splitting up of Reichskommissariat Moskowien into very loosely tied Generalkommissariats. The objective was to undermine the national cohesion of the Russians by promoting regional identification; a Russian from the Gorki Generalkommissariat was to feel that he was different from a Russian in the Tula Generalkommissariat. Also, a source of discussion in the Nazi circles was the replacement of the Cyrillic letters with the German alphabet. In July 1944, Himmler ordered Ernst Kaltenbrunner, the head of the RSHA, to begin the exporting of the faith of the Jehovah's Witnesses to the occupied east. Himmler considered the Jehovah's Witnesses of being frugal, hard-working, honest and fanatic in their pacifism, and that these traits were extremely desirable for the suppressed nations in the east.
Posted by: guest77 | Feb 9, 2014 7:52:27 PM | 57
57) Don't you think people learn from history?
56) Well, all that is left is to say "fuck you".
This here is the Social Democrat who coordinates Germany's Russia policy in Angela Merkel's government.
BZ: Herr Erler, was wird sich im Verhältnis zu Russland mit einem Außenminister Frank-Walter Steinmeier und einem Russland-Beauftragten Erler ändern?
Erler: Gerade im vergangenen Jahr ist die wichtige Rolle Russlands bei der Bewältigung internationaler Konflikte sehr deutlich geworden. Deshalb wollen wir dazu beizutragen, dass Russland auf dem konstruktiven Weg, den das Land etwa im Syrien-Konflikt oder bei der Lösung der Probleme im Iran eingeschlagen hat, weiter vorangeht.
Translation: Especially in the last year Russia's important role in the solution of international crises has become very evident. That is why we want to contribute to the positive way this country has taken eg in the Syrian conflict or the solution of the problems in Iran.
Posted by: somebody | Feb 9, 2014 8:03:31 PM | 58
replacement of the Cyrillic letters with the German alphabet. #57 above
what would this mean? the nazis themselves did away with the Gothic German alphabet, making the Latin alphabet standard
Posted by: Cu Chulainn | Feb 9, 2014 8:05:38 PM | 59
I forgot, same guy:
Erler: Nehmen Sie das Beispiel Ukraine: Warum hat die EU nicht gesehen, in welch kritischer Finanzsituation die Ukraine steht? Die von der EU geforderte Entweder-Oder-Entscheidung hat die aktuellen ukrainischen Probleme befeuert. Da ist eine Stresssituation entstanden, die sich in täglichen Demonstrationen manifestiert. Man hätte das vermeiden müssen. Dabei ist nicht einmal geklärt, ob denn ein Assoziierungsabkommen mit der EU und eine Mitarbeit der Ukraine in der Zollunion mit Russland wirklich unvereinbar sind.
Translation: Take for example Ukraine, why did the EU not realize the seriousness of the financial situation of Ukraine? The either/or decision the EU demanded has added to the present problems of Ukraine. A stress situation was created that resulted in daily demonstrations. This should have been avoided. All this, whilst it has not been clear, if an association accord and cooperation of Ukraine in the Russian tariff union is really incompatible.
Posted by: somebody | Feb 9, 2014 8:11:35 PM | 60
Again I am not suggesting the Germans want a war over anything, but their view on the east cannot be one of a zero sum game. Laughingly this is what Kerry has warned against, though it is the only kind of game he seems to know how to play.
I don't know if people learn from the past or not. What i am sure of is that the same tactics seem to pop up through the centuries. If you don't think that what the nazis described above is exactly in spirit the plan the US and Israel has for the Sunni, Shia split you haven't learned from the past 10 years.
Posted by: guest77 | Feb 9, 2014 9:33:12 PM | 61
@59 it could mean nothing. The whole page reads more like fan fiction than an encyclopedia, so who knows. You never know what sources Wikipedia is based on.
Posted by: guest77 | Feb 9, 2014 9:35:04 PM | 62
If I were a Bosnian I would, ever so self-deprecatingly, say; "only Bosnians would start a revolution during the Olympic games".
Posted by: L Bean | Feb 9, 2014 9:58:02 PM | 63
I don't present this as any dynamic that relates directly to our world today...
Posted by: guest77 | Feb 9, 2014 7:52:27 PM | 57
You're being too modest.
If nothing else, the passage you've cited suggests that the origins, and some key components, of US Overthrow Policy can be traced back to Nazi Germany. And the Brits were already adept at sowing the seeds of envy, dissent and anger in their targets for Colonial Conquest before the Nazis were formulating their policies.
One Syria factor that's been nagging me is that, theoretically at least, Syria was superficially capable of dealing with its 2011 "uprising." It had comparatively huge military and intel resources for a country of 25k population, having successfully crushed an earlier uprising and yet failed, dismally, to detect, and/or respond to, the early signs of trouble in a timely/ productive/ relevant manner. And one only need reflect on the US response to the (excessively benign) Occupy Movement to see just how alarming US elites regard ANY form of dissent in the Homeland.
If it's true that countries with simmering, unaddressed, problems of envy and discontent are ripe for Overthrow, then the US Regime should be the most vulnerable on Earth.
So why isn't it?
Or is it?
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 9, 2014 10:18:22 PM | 64
#64: The reason the US remains stable as its middle class is being destroyed is the same reason it stayed stable as its unionized manufacturing working class was destroyed in the 1980s. it is drilled into Americans that they are personally responsible for their fate. Therefore the impoverishment of millions get treated as million of independent cases of bad personal behavior and decisions. Thats how it worked 30 years ago when the plutocracy decided to throw unionized industrial workers under the bus. And that's how its working now that the plutocracy is throwing the middle class under the bus. It's as if we're trained to cooperate in the destruction of our economic lives because doing anything else would be "Socialistic"
Posted by: rkka | Feb 9, 2014 11:08:55 PM | 65
Thank you. And you're absolutely right on Occupy. Imagine if Occupy had turned downtown Manhattan into something like Kiev. Well - it never would have gotten to that point. It would have been called a riot and the National Guard brought in, with people dying in the streets.
"If it's true that countries with simmering, unaddressed, problems of envy and discontent are ripe for Overthrow, then the US Regime should be the most vulnerable on Earth.
So why isn't it? "
It combines piles of cash and an absolutely amoral world view, which together allow for the most sophisticated methods of indoctrination and social control ever devised?
"Or is it?"
I don't know when it will break, but when it does, it will be like a thousand year flood, I have no doubt.
Posted by: guest77 | Feb 9, 2014 11:13:56 PM | 66
There is enough bread and circuses, plus the masses are worn down with poisonous food and electrosmog and pharmaceuticals and various aspects of the scientific dictatorship that the PTB have been working on for a long time. Perhaps the biggest part of this scientific dictatorship is brainwashing, where the USSA has been very successful.
Posted by: Ozawa | Feb 10, 2014 12:40:18 AM | 67
61)It probably is an accurate description of Nazi thought. The pacifist German Yehova's witnesses though were no Nazi sect but ended up in concentration camps.
Nazi Germany acted as a colonialist in Eastern Europe, exploiting historical enmities and fault lines, plus having a few co-Nazi friends there. The way some conservative Germans seem to be able to work with them again is utterly disgusting.
The times however have changed. On of the changes is a Christian conservative chancellor in charge who is dependent on Social Democrats who have their own historic ties to Eastern Europe - to very different people.
Another change is the ex GDR having a very good knowledge and contacts to Eastern Europe and Russia - though it is now 25 years since Soviet troops left Germany.
Germany acting with Poland is clever as the Polish historical nightmare is an agreement between Germany and Russia.
Neither Germany nor Poland nor anybody else in the EU wants to send Brussels money to Western Ukrainian agriculture.
Yanukovich is not Russia's man - he was faced with an association agreement that threatened existing Ukrainian integration with Russia whilst for sure annihilating Ukrainian industries as they are not competitive in the EU. And austerity measures that would not be politically possible in Ukraine.
The interesting thing is why the EU thought they could make Ukraine sign an association agreement like that.
They presumably thought Ukraine had been softened up enough already by the IMF
In its report, the I.M.F. said it would most likely recommend less money to Ukraine in the future as a result of its poor track record. Based on its experience with Ukraine on the 2010 loan deal, the fund also suggested creating a new mechanism for canceling programs that go badly, particularly in cases like Ukraine’s where the government is to blame.
“The program quickly went off track as the authorities stopped implementing the agreed policies,” the fund wrote in a statement summarizing the results of a discussion about Ukraine at a board meeting earlier this week.
So far, Ukraine is current in its payments on the 2010 loans, but the I.M.F. severely chastised the Ukrainian government for excessive spending while it faced a recession. “Large pension and wage increases, generous energy subsidies and soccer cup spending led to a widening of the combined deficit of the general government and the state-owned company Naftogaz,” the organization wrote.
The I.M.F. had demanded serious changes. “Directors recommended the authorities implement a package of comprehensive policy adjustments in several areas, including curtailing the fiscal and external account deficits, phasing out energy subsidies, strengthening the banking sector and improving the external competitiveness of the company,” the report said.
It is very funny that the World Bank seemingly cannot make their mind up - this from just two month before above quote:
Singapore and Hong Kong top the World Bank's annual ranking of the best places to run a business, while Rwanda, Russia and the Ukraine were among the countries that made the most progress in improving their business climates.
Posted by: somebody | Feb 10, 2014 1:31:26 AM | 68
Another reason of course could be that the EU's heart was not in it, i.e. they gave Ukraine an offer to refuse.
Posted by: somebody | Feb 10, 2014 1:32:44 AM | 69
Getting back to anti-Overthrow tactics, should target countries take a leaf out of America's book and make all public protests 'illegal' unless...
- each individual protestor has a valid Permit issued by the Govt
- protestors agree to protest only inside Designated Protest Zones - such as razor wire compounds beneath freeway underpasses or other low-visibility locations?
Syria's mistake might have been as simple as forgetting to do this. But it's not too late for Ukraine. And I could enjoy hearing Kerry and Shrillary 'deploring' the use, by Ukraine, of Yankee tactics against protestors.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 10, 2014 2:24:31 AM | 70
50) we know you are a fascist - go look into the mirror.
Posted by: somebody | Feb 9, 2014 5:47:34 PM | 51
Thanks so much! This coming from you means I'm on the right track and have a healthy attitude and mind.
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 10, 2014 5:06:37 AM | 71
Meant to say: It is inconceivable that the Russian intelligence services had set up the channel two months ago. Posted by: Petri Krohn | Feb 9, 2014 6:18:05 PM | 53
Thank you for clarifying that, Petri. You certainly had me wondering. But I cannot understand why people are concerned about whether it was 'the Russians' or not. Toria and her friends make a very weak counter-propaganda point by calling it "a new low in Russian tradecraft," because as most of the world would see it, it serves the US right anyway, given that we have been listening to the Snowden leaks for the last six months or so.
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Feb 10, 2014 5:47:35 AM | 72
Neither Polish government nor Polish people want Anglo-Israeli-American establishment setting Ukraine on fire (except for the MSM on Soros's leash and the "Law&Order" opposition party realizing AIA interests while inciting in a veiled manner anti-jewish sentiments - which has NEVER really HURT the zionazi cabal but has ALWAYS been a publicity and financial bonanza for ADL, AIPAC, WJC,...). This is somewhat disguised clear message to "fuck off":
Europe cannot turn its back on Ukraine, Polish PM says
"A further escalation of the crisis endangers the future of Ukraine and threatens with a complete destabilization of the country," the joint statement said... Tusk said Europe should help both the Ukrainian administration and the opposition in finding common ground and avoid what he called dramatic outcomes...
Merkel, Tusk against Ukraine sanctions for now I saw that press conference - what was remarkable, but of course concealed in all MSM reports, is that both leaders, IN almost ONE VOICE, unequivocally emphasized that Ukraine is a sovereign country, has legitimate government and the solution of the current crisis can only be achieved among Ukrainians themselves.
Minister Radosław Sikorski for Deutsche Welle: Polish experiences are very valuable to Ukraine
...Radosław Sikorski also referred to his talk with Germany’s Foreign Minister Steinmeier, underlying “how important it was for Poland and Germany, two big EU countries most interested in Ukraine, to synchronise their positions.” We have not seen any differences in our respective positions emerge on this issue,” acknowledged the minister. “But some in the EU would prefer to discuss sanctions. Poland and Germany came to the independent conclusion that it is too early for that,” he added...
Both Poland and Germany strive to gain independence from the Anglo-Israeli-American occupation, which is very hard where the AIA's main artillery is the Holocaust issue (btw: check "6 million" myth) - Germany's blame has been abused, and Poland - one of the most suffering victims of the Nazi barbarism - has been especially recently accused of widespread collaboration which is of course absolutely outlandish, outrageous, blatant lie (read about the number of Righteous Poles on Yad Vashem's list, about Irena Sendler, Ulm's family, Jan Karski, Witold Pilecki). Germany has been paying billions to Israel in compensation. Whenever one of the countries tries show independence, it is being barraged with the accusation of "growing antisemitism" coordinated by the ADL and other fronts.
And of course the minute real independence in the foreign policy would be showed - the same destabilization operation that has been applied to Ukrain recently would be used in Poland or Germany. Do not forget about the Operation GLADIO either...
But the time is near...
Posted by: ProPeace | Feb 10, 2014 7:58:44 AM | 73
Yeah, Mina: I have picked up several stories about CAR, and the latest one had a great quote from an eye-witness: "The Rwandan peacekeepers opened fire on the crowd." A professional reporter would never say that, but in this case, a professional reporter (for The Lebanon Star) reported it. Reuters didn't. Instead they went straight to the army spokesman, who trotted out the accident excuse.
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Feb 10, 2014 10:22:13 AM | 75
I just looked those two stories up. I misremembered the first one, it was AP, here. The Reuters version is here, and labours mightly to exonerate the troops.
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Feb 10, 2014 12:18:09 PM | 76