Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 20, 2014

Ukraine: White House Is "Outraged By Images"

Anti-government protesters aim their weapons during clashes with riot police at Independence Square in Kiev February 18, 2014.  (Vasily Fedosenko)

The White House - Office of the Press Secretary

We are outraged by the images of Ukrainian security forces firing automatic weapons on their own people. We urge President Yanukovych to immediately withdraw his security forces from downtown Kyiv and to respect the right of peaceful protest, ...

One wonders what pictures the White House is looking at? Well, of course the real pictures ain't so helpful in pushing for "regime change".

More "outrageous" pictures below the fold ...

(Pics taken from this thread)

Posted by b on February 20, 2014 at 11:50 AM | Permalink

Comments
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99) Yep, this time Germany, France and Poland are involved in this dreamland politics, too

1925 GMT: Fearing the rise of right-wing parties like Svoboda, and in light of a recent attack on Jewish students, a prominent rabbi has urged Jews to flee Ukraine:

One of Ukraine’s Chief Rabbis, Moshe Reuven Asman, urged Jews to leave capital city Kiev following a reported anti-Semitic attack on two Chabad yeshiva students in the city last month, Israeli daily Ma’ariv reported.

“I told my community to get out of the city and if possible out of the state…there are many warnings about planned attacks against Jewish institutions,” Asman said, adding, “We have been told by the Israeli Embassy to not go outside.”

Does he have reasons to be concerned? Of course, but this statement may just reinforce the idea that these events are being driven by hardline nationalists.

1912 GMT: As we’ve been saying, none of the opposition politicians necessarily has control over the crowds. The Euromaidan protests started without leaders, and the crowd is torn on whether it supports these politicians.

That makes negotiating a settlement hard, however. Here’s more context on the vow to remove Yanukovych from power by 10 AM ...

Posted by: somebody | Feb 21, 2014 3:37:24 PM | 101

Mr Pragma:

"bitch" and "whore" and evil "jew" ?
you might as well say "nigger" too !

Posted by: anon | Feb 21, 2014 3:41:23 PM | 102

plus, ominous too - this is by the opposition, so not necessarily correct, though I suspect it might be true
20.000 militia men can be activated within two days

Funding? Charity donations to open bank accounts - oh yeah.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 21, 2014 3:43:13 PM | 103

It looks to me that the Russians are playing this exactly right. Cutting off the aid to force the US and the EU to call their bluff by anteing up. Who says the Russians can't play poker? It will be interesting to see who in the West will get their arm twisted to finance the Ukraine's short term liquidity. The country's bankrupt. I'm not sure the demonstrators really understand that concept. The Russians do. In 1989 and 1990 they were unable to finance needed food imports. At one point Petersburg and Moscow were down to two to three week's supply. Don't know what the situation is in the Ukraine.

Posted by: Knut | Feb 21, 2014 3:57:02 PM | 104

Zico

Bet nuland have secret told her facists on the street to keep rioting to kill the deal.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 21, 2014 4:03:37 PM | 105

Cut through all the smoke and mirrors, Zico@99. This conflict in Ukraine, as you say, smells distinctly like the one in Syria, thus the great game must go on. The US/EU crony capitalist overlords never cease in their attempts to encircle Russia and China and keep alive the flames of continuous warfare elsewhere around the globe. Never mind about the economic misery here at home in the US and Europe. It is totally irrelevant to them.

Posted by: Cynthia | Feb 21, 2014 4:06:01 PM | 106

What a surprise. Who would have thought - after series of agreements the "opposition" signed and that weren't worth the paper written on - that yesterdays final agreement/solution isn't accepted neither.

Also very funny: The "people", as if there still were peaceful protesters, demand that for a real final solution (valid for 4 - 6 hrs) Yanukovich must step back.
Now, I can understand that demand; after all Yanukovich has dutifully used pretty every chance to demonstrate that he is a corrupt, incompetent, and ridiculous idiot. But that "peoples" demand begs a question: by which other corrupt, incapable and quite probably bought as*hole do they think he should be replaced?

Oh sorry, my fault. After all this is about "democracy and freedom" and thinking has therefore been deactivated long ago.
This might also explain why those idiots obediently bit the Russian hand that were ready to - and already did - feed them and instead danced to the tunes of broken corrupt zionistic regimes.

Anyone taking bets how long any futher final peaceful solution agreement will be valid and undisputed? Who's willing to bet 100$ on "longer than 12 hrs"? Anyone? No? Strange.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 21, 2014 4:12:54 PM | 107

Mr Pragma

The deal is already killed, these terrorists on the streets only want to take power themselves. As for democracy, they obviously hate it and after all Yanukovich is democratically elected.
Unfortunately he seems to have backed down too much and instead coming out weaker and weaker.

I would put up another bet, how long will it take before US, EU urge Yanukovich to leave power? Just like Assad must leave power according to the same morons.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 21, 2014 4:29:06 PM | 108

Mr. Pragma @ 107,

The chances of the deal holding is very little. As with every movement, there're genuine people among the protesters that thought their presence there made any difference and that they were fighting for a just cause etc etc - y'know, the stuff that the bcc tells them like corruption, dictator,brutal regime etc etc. Those are the useful idiots - many of them young ideologue kids that just finished college and believe they're out to save the world. Their usefulness is very crucial in the initial stages of the party. Their role is to give the whole plot the "peaceful protest" meme. They're now done serving their usefulness and the real game is now being played out.

Victoria Nuland's thugs(y'know, the peaceful protesters with the sniper rifles and stuff) are the real game in town, dammit!!!

I heard she's blown about $5-BILLION of democracy money on this party alone. It'll be hard for her to watch it all go down in simple deal signed on some worthless paper. The party was suppose to climax with Yanukovich hanging on a lamppost. May the deal be damned!!!! Hail Democracy!!!

Posted by: Zico | Feb 21, 2014 4:35:03 PM | 109

108) you win, German media is already at it.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 21, 2014 4:39:58 PM | 110

While I have no doubts Ukrainians have legitimate concerns, I also have no doubt Western powers are funding and aiding these protests.

This remains the same as it has been for several hundred years and summarized in the words of Ms. Albright when she suggested when referencing Russia that "No country deserves all those resources."

Ms. Albright obviously did not include the US in those countries as the US is "exceptional."

They WANT to dismember Russia.

Few people are aware of it, but during the Civil War, both Britain and France were making plans to attack the US in support of the Confederacy. They wanted to dismember the US before it became a threat to their own Imperial power.

The Russian Fleet visited the US, and Russia made it clear if those two nations made war on the US, it would mean war with Russia.

Western Europe has always lusted after the resources of the East. Imperialism has changed its form but remains as ascendant as ever.

Webster Tarpley did a good talk about the Russian Fleet visit and its implications for American/Russian friendship, entitled "Russia's Participation in the U.S. Civil War" that can be viewed on the C-Span3:

http://www.c-span.org/video/?315198-1/russias-participation-us-civil-war

Posted by: Cynthia | Feb 21, 2014 4:45:43 PM | 111

Yanukovich is giving way, as he has to, as Lviv has left him. No doubt under advice from Putin.

I would it say it is questionable who will win a renewed election.

Posted by: Alexno | Feb 21, 2014 4:48:50 PM | 112

a) *Of course* zusa/zeu want yanukovich to leave. After all, while being an incapable, treacherous a*hole, the is not *completely* remote controllable like the zusa/zeu payed traitors. This isn't news, this is clear since quite a while.

b) I couldn't care less, which of the traitor puppets (incl. timochenko bitch) and in what constellation takes over government. The result will necessarily be roughly the same unless a miracle happens and zusa/zeu suddenly were ready to pay 20bln+ until the presidential elections in september (earliest).
I wouldn't hold my breath, though ...

c) the politicians (both zusa/zeu and ukraine) bla bla about keeping ukraine a united country and doing whatnot to avoid splitting is just that, bla, or, to be more precise, a case of politicians saying "Not X, whatever happens, *not X*" meaning "Our goal is X".

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 21, 2014 5:02:13 PM | 113

RT reporting that Yanukovich has left Kiev for Kharkiv.

Posted by: lysias | Feb 21, 2014 5:07:34 PM | 114

Alexno (112)

No doubt under advice from Putin.

Funny how people always think that Putin and yanukovich are friends or at least partners. They are not. You bet your a*s that Putin detests yanukovich.

Yes, quite probably yanukovich ran to Putin (multiple times) to ask for help, guarantees, whatnot. But rest assured that Putin isn't stupid enough to trust yanukovich enough; whatever Putin may have said or done was guided by solid political interests like "One should avoid ukraine becoming a snack for zusa/zeu only to be put into the waste bin afterward".

I'm quite certain that Putin basic line is to let things go the way they go. And indeed he mustn't be worried. If really needed there wouldn't be any power strong enough from keeping Russia to do whatever it damn pleases.

And again - and also to those who propagate that Belarus and finally Russia herself are next - a clear message: All those ideas about Russia being weak without ukraine and needing ukraine so urgently are based on a situation that is passé since long.
The reason Putin seemed to just look and do not much is quite simply that ukraine isn't worth much to Russia and, more importantly, that Putin is *way more* smart and professional than the zusa/zeu players (as has been seen again and again). He knows that it is not worth the trouble to save ukraine (which anyway is a somewhat artificial construct) and that quite soon Russia will get anyway what little Russia might desire in ukraine (mostly crimea and maybe some eastern regions).

Last but not least Putin knows - and the jewland leak has proven again - that thugs will always fight over their prey, both inside ukraine and outside. No professional with a brain and a spine would go and mingle with the thugs.

And: yes, there are ukrainians and Russians in that country. To mix them up, however, would be rather stupid and wrong. And rest assured that the Russians in ukraine have not forgotten how badly, unfair and sometimes hateful they have been treated.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 21, 2014 5:20:12 PM | 115

The best part will certainly be when Poland starts to make territorial demands on the landlocked little rump Bandera-stan.

Depending on how decrepit a little state they build around Lviv, the EU could really be in for an influx of immigrants and criminals.

Posted by: guest77 | Feb 21, 2014 6:52:12 PM | 116


Incredible video from Kiev's maiden: A self-declared representative of "an American news agency" threatens members of Ukraine's police: "We have passed the list of the Berkut members to the court in the Hague. You will be pursued ... perhaps for ten or fifteen years. We have distributed cameras to your colleagues in the police to film you. WE HAVE BOUGHT THEM." https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uhqx9j_1gtk

the ideal response is to send email clips of neonazis at the 'rallies, with a message : welcome to 1933....or some such...CC to AntiDefamation League....

Posted by: brian | Feb 21, 2014 6:58:22 PM | 117

Martin Sieff, chief global analyst at the Globalist Research Center interviewed by RT:

‘US blaming Ukrainian authorities for violence is catastrophic move’RT, February 21, 2014

RT: What do you make of Washington blaming the authorities in Kiev for this violence?

MS: It’s a catastrophic move, it’s a revolutionary move. There are far greater dangerous implications to this than anybody in Washington or Western Europe seems to realize. It is placing the European Union and the United States on the side of revolutionary chaos and disorder not just in other countries around the world, which would be bad enough, but in the heartland of Europe. This is very dangerous and irresponsible.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Feb 21, 2014 7:30:52 PM | 118

Election maps make clear the division in the country - as well as what a future "state" may look like.

Posted by: guest77 | Feb 21, 2014 7:39:25 PM | 119

The fascist mob having savored blood spiced with bestowed immunity now sees Yanukovich's capitulation as too little for their taste and they declared a new ultimatum: the Ukrainian President must resign by tomorrow 10 AM or they will attack with all they have already got, seized and stolen--as they declared now openly, that means "WITH WEAPONS." http://varjag-2007.livejournal.com/5735335.html

Posted by: brian | Feb 21, 2014 7:44:18 PM | 120

This whole poll is very interesting, but the parts about Ukraine, I think, are most.

Such as NATO membership, where a only 33% of ethnic Ukrainians and 28% overall were "for" it in 2009.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2009/11/02/chapter-9-rating-the-eu-and-nato/

Also interesting to point out Poland - because it keeps coming up - that though it is the most approving of the eastern bloc countries of moving away from Communism, still a full 47% say conditions are worse or about the same. Hungary, on the other end of the spectrum - 72% say things are worse under capitalism. So I guess the only question that remains is - they've spilt the blood and engaged in the orgy of destruction required to deliver their country to western domination - where the Ukrainians will land on that spectrum: utterly ambivalent, or full of overwhelming regret.

Other interesting stuff: http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=145614

Posted by: guest77 | Feb 21, 2014 8:01:32 PM | 121

The fascist mob having savored blood spiced with bestowed immunity ... will attack with all they have already got, seized and stolen--as they declared now openly, that means "WITH WEAPONS.

Isn't this wonderful?

And don't get me wrong, this is not simply cynical, no, it's actually the only chance left for ukraine to stay intact as a state, albeit with immense damage done and excessive losses in trust and other values.

If they really do what they say the government basically has no other option than to crush the attacks on the state with military force. Additionally, if they are left with any rests of a spine and some reason, they will kill - or at the very least, jail (although this has proven unsensible and even dangerous) - the main criminals and to terminate timoshenko the bitch snake one and for all.

But I used the term "chance" with reason. because it wouldn't be more but a mere chance. Quite probably, the eastern/southern part of ukraine couldn't but learn that all their work, their - very important - contributions, and even their rights are worth little in a state that is infested by traitors and cheap whores in the western and northern part. I assume therefore that this will be one part of the IMMENSE price ukraine will have to pay for a very small but very brutal part of its population in the western and northern parts.
This question will also come up in another context, namely the fact that ukraine no matter what *urgently* needs billions of $ to survive in whatsoever form. Sure enough Russias readiness to finance traitors and rioteers in a state that can't be trusted will be very limited to non-existent. The willingness as well as the capability of zusa/zeu to shell out those billions can, I think, reasonable be considered non-existent anyway.

A small detail that might be noteworthy and widely unknown: Basically all major figures of the terrorist front have signed agreements by zusa/zeu to be exfiltrated to security if needed. Another reason to kill them first thing in the morning.


Ceterum censeo israel americanamque vehementer delenda esse.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 21, 2014 9:10:42 PM | 122

From the horses mouth: Minister Radosław Sikorski for Deutsche Welle: Polish experiences are very valuable to Ukraine 03.02.2014

“We appeal to both sides to show restraint: to the authorities to stop the repressions and to the opposition to think the unthinkable,” said Poland’s Foreign Minister Radosław Sikorski in an interview with Deutsche Welle’s Róża Romaniec published online. The Polish foreign minister talked about current developments in Ukraine and security policy in the context of the Munich Security Conference.

Discussing the possible scenarios for Ukraine, the minister recalled that Poland has gone through a successful transformation. “It started with a compromise, which was also criticised. President Yanukovych’s proposal to give one of the opposition leaders the post of prime minister is taken straight form Poland’s history books and the slogan we embraced in 1989–‘your President, our Prime Minister’–which turned out well for Poland,” stressed the minister. “Back then Poland and Ukraine had the same standard of living. Today, Poland is three times more affluent than Ukraine. Such positive Polish experiences are very valuable to Ukraine,” said the minister.

-- snip --

Radosław Sikorski also referred to his talk with Germany’s Foreign Minister Steinmeier, underlying “how important it was for Poland and Germany, two big EU countries most interested in Ukraine, to synchronise their positions.” We have not seen any differences in our respective positions emerge on this issue,” acknowledged the minister. “But some in the EU would prefer to discuss sanctions. Poland and Germany came to the independent conclusion that it is too early for that,” he added.

-- snip

There is also some BS about "the need of IMF reforms" - but Poland under Transatlantic yoke is expected to show submissiveness.

Posted by: ProPeace | Feb 21, 2014 10:28:26 PM | 123

123) Yep, just that nothing is solved. It is the beginning.

1) Ukraine will default to be "saved" by the World Bank or by Putin. "Default" sounds harmless but if the Ukrainian currency loses value, everybody depending on the local currency, old age pensioners, public employees, i.e. most people, will be without income.
2) The agreement has opened a parliamentary fight for impeachment, politicians are reorientating as the power has changed/is unclear
3) The goals of the opposition are still unclear, beyond Yanukovic has to go, neo fascists seem to have decided to "fight" on i.e. continue to riot. This will turn ugly when they cannot find any opposing forces. It will turn extremely ugly in the context of the likely "default", if they can present themselves as alternative.
4) Southern regions / Charkov most likely will split, if the EU cannot get an agreement with Russia. An agreement I cannot detect.

However, Ukrainians have avoided civil war for now which is good.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 22, 2014 1:53:37 AM | 124

This here is Romano Prodi in the New York Times

Europe needs Ukraine as a bridge to Russia more than ever. In recent days, talks between the two sides have only yielded bad faith. Mistrust has steadily grown: Moscow views Europe’s diplomacy as empire-building in all but name, while Brussels sees a jealous Russia determined to recreate an imperial past.

Ukraine, this fragile and vital bridge, is in danger of collapsing. To threaten sanctions, to condone violent extremists in the streets and to ignore Ukraine’s financial troubles — as some European leaders seem to be doing — would be to hasten the destruction of the bridge. Instead, we should be supporting and repairing it.

Europe should not accept interference by Russia in Ukraine’s affairs, but it also cannot stand by as the crisis in Kiev rages. The European Union should re-engage Mr. Putin and make clear that all parties have everything to lose, and nothing to gain, from further violence.

Of course, Europe is interfering in Ukraine affairs. But they really should talk to Putin.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 22, 2014 1:58:47 AM | 125

Zico
"...I think Yanukovich is a bit of a buffoon. His indecisiveness and clumsy attempt at playing the EU and US against Moscow is what's got the whole country into this mess..."
No doubt he was playing the EU against Russia. He made a bad (catastrophic) bet - fucked up his administration, the whole region, alienated Russia for sure, and looks to me now that he'll step down, having learned probably nothing. Buffoon indeed.

Posted by: okie farmer | Feb 22, 2014 3:14:33 AM | 126

The country was in a mess before. But whose idea was it to start a color revolution on the fighting power of fascists? Reality is beginning to sink in in Western media that they have been handed a huge problem.

Keeping Ukraine together is a priority for the Obama administration but, says Trenin, it's also a Russian policy priority. "Despite what you may hear from various Russian figures," he says, "it's very much Mr. Putin's preference, in fact, priority, that Ukraine stays in one piece. Otherwise, a civil war very close to home, next door, essentially, could be too dangerous for Russia itself."

I am not so sure about above analysis. Maybe Obama says so but the cold warriers are clearly at work, working for a Yougoslav scenario.

According to twitter this is just happening in Kyiv

Simon Shuster ‏@shustry

It appears Pravy Sektor has taken control of #Ukraine's capital. I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so: http://world.time.com/2014/02/04/ukraine-dmitri-yarosh-kiev/

Near Kiev suburbs, revolutionaries stop and search cars, buses. Masked toughs directing traffic with a striped policeman's baton. #Ukraine

Ukraine borders Poland, Hungary, Romania, Moldova, Belarus, Russia. They have sizable minorities speaking neighboring languages as mother tongue plus a sizable Jewish sommunity.

What are Fascist movements about but ethnic cleansing?


Posted by: somebody | Feb 22, 2014 3:57:27 AM | 127

somebody 125

I had to throw up reading that, how have russia interfered compared with nuland/EU/ashton/US etc?!
God politicans really are ignorant!

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 22, 2014 4:01:54 AM | 128

CIA? Interpol?
For whatever its worth
http://beforeitsnews.com/war-and-conflict/2014/02/cia-agent-captured-in-ukraine-helping-ukranian-protesters-video-here-2450486.html

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 22, 2014 4:12:07 AM | 129

The proverbial sh*t's hit the fan...Ukraine as we know it, it dead!!!

The Eastern part of the country are planning to set up their own independent government..This government will be recognized by Russia and the civil war will start from there..Those in Lviv will have to move on to Poland or Germany.

Gentlemen, this is the true face of a democratic EU!!!!

Posted by: Zico | Feb 22, 2014 5:08:14 AM | 130

130) I think, they avoided civil war, the Fascists will have a go at ethnic cleansing though.

Looking at the Ukrainian export/import statistics I do wonder what the EU is planning to do.

German papers are already talking of billions of EU help which will go down very well with the population. Well, I suppose they will start the Euro printing press soon which does not "cost" anything.

Russia is very quiet about the whole thing. I suppose they are munching popcorn just now.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 22, 2014 5:34:41 AM | 131

Ongoing counter attack from Kharkiv ? There are some (deserved) pretty bad words towards the rioters out there, and more than 10k people rallying in support.

RT follows the story

Posted by: Rhysa | Feb 22, 2014 6:49:18 AM | 132

Here we are, Ianoukovitch denonces a Coup d'Etat, denies the rumors telling he would resign and qualifies all votes in Parliament inconstitutianal (which they are, since Rada alone can't pass laws). Eastern and southern regions gathered in a Congress where from time to time "Russia ! Russia !" can be heard.

He grew a pair too late.

Posted by: Rhysa | Feb 22, 2014 10:00:29 AM | 133

133) No, it is chess. You let the other attack wildly whilst putting in place strategic positions. With those strategic positions you then check mate the king.

The EU/US is now stuck with the choice to pay for the agricultural part of Ukraine or come to a deal with Russia.
But maybe NATO thinks missile bases in Poland are not enough of a threat.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 22, 2014 10:17:21 AM | 134

zeu population happy to help west-ex-ukraine financially? Now way. maybe the propaganda machine spreads those lies but it's not true.

Some facts: Throughout zeu dislike against immigrants is rapidly increasing; and so is dislike of zeu in general and zeuro in particular. Right wing parties, not only in Greece, are growing rapidly. The average zeu-citizens will maybe *say* that democracy in ukraine would be a good thing but he will be tight and refusing to help them financially. Simple reason: zeu is broke and poverty already spreads throughout zeu.
I'm expecting zeu to shell out some promises, "programs", and some (way too little) financing - so as to *not* have ukrainians flood zeu.

Russia "needs" or even has a priority that ukraine stays 1 state? Bullshit!
In fact a split would be neutral to slightly advantageous for Russia.

Russia is afraid of zato missiles in western ukraine? Bullshit to the square!
Some westerners seem to be so rotten by propaganda and the fairy tale of the mighty, mighty zato that they completely deactivated their brain. Do yourself a favour and have a look at a globe.
Furthermore even _if_ Russia did send ICBMs over Europe those missiles would already be 10s of kilometers beyond the reach of zato defense missiles when entering zeu's "air space"; zato might as well shoot to another galaxy. On the other hand might launch their missiles right at the border to poland - and zato couldn't still do much because their missiles hit rate can be described as "occasional happenstance".

I'm also missing more understanding of the obvious, namely that the zusa/zeu CRIMINAL AGGRESSORS and their traitor and terrorist puppets in Ukraine timed that whole thing so as to "coincide" nicely with Sochi, knowing full well that Putin had, so to speak, bound his hands behind his back, that he had to be friendly and patient for Sochi not to lousily fail. And they mercilessly abused this in blunt violation of the Olympic idea.
They knew, however, that their window of criminal terror action was tight, namely the 2 Olympic weeks, and so they turned up the riot level quite hard so as to use that timeframe with utmost brutality in order to reach a fait accompli before Sochi ends.

And there is something else, I'm missing to be seen: This whole thing was meant as a lose/lose attack, i.e. they calculated that Putin would react - justifyably! - more aggressive so they could destroy the Sochi games (at least a major face loss for Russia) and instigate riots in Russia, too, using their payed "democracy forces" there.
Do not underestimate the readiness, in fact the typical trait of zusa/zeu driven attacks, to act utmost despicably, inhuman and dirty!

Well, bad luck. Once more Putin used a brilliant brain rather than hatred, greed, and brutality (as did the zusa/zeu thugs) to analyse, react, and act.

It's simple in the end.
Crimea *already* prepares to join Russia in one way or another. Sure enough it will be followed by other eastern regions. The kiev problem ("who gets Kiev?"), an artificial one anyway, doesn't exist (except in western minds being, among others, geography ignorant). Again, have a look at a globe and you'll find Kiev smack in the middle of the western part of ukraine. Furthermore kiev has a very high concentration of, uhm, certain people whose real loyalty is with another (shittly little mass murder) country way more south anyway.
Can Russia afford to and will Russia support their friends? Of course.

And the rest (actually even the bigger part, so enjoy) of ukraine will fall to the west, no matter whether as a new rump-state or as "the rest of ukraine".
And guess what? zusa will *only* want some bases there and nothing else; particularly they will *not* take any responsibility and they will (and can) not shell out money. Except, of course, they will in a grandious "humanitarin help action" ship some of their thugs out of the country (as has been agreed early on).

Unfortunately it will turn out that Mrs. jewland will have gotten at least 1 thing, namely the "fuck eu" - because that's pretty exactly what's going to happen. Zeu will end up badly fucked. Unlike zusa, zeu actually has borders with ukraine; unlike zusa, zeu actually will be flooded by terrorists, traitors, whores, criminals, and other scum. And even shelling out big amounts of money won't change that.
Now, as ugly things sometimes like to come in pairs, do not forget that zeu elections are very soon coming up (in may). So we'll experience another "timeframe game"; zeu will promise pretty much *everything* to ukraine, although it can afford next to nothing, so as to somehow keep the ukrainian crimes and terror wave away until those zeu elections are over. Because *that's* how wonderful democracy in zeu works traditionally.

The interesting question for zeu citizens therefore is "Will Putin terminate zusa (and consequently break zeu) in time - or will the zeu citizens be plundered and victimized by an immense crime wave before Putin breaks them free?".

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 22, 2014 12:39:50 PM | 135

You understand that a lot of the long arms depicted are pellet guns (i.e., powered by compressed gas, small calibre, low mass projectiles), right?

Posted by: JustPlainDave | Feb 22, 2014 6:59:50 PM | 136

JustPlainDave (136)

You understand that a lot of the long arms depicted are pellet guns (i.e., powered by compressed gas, small calibre, low mass projectiles), right?

I doubt that. Simple reason and everybody who ever shot such a thingy knows that, they are worthless for anything but short distance sports shooting. Even throwing a stone is more effective, not to even talk about a normal bow and arrows.
Now I don't think that the kiev terrorists are particularly smart but I also think they'are plain braindead.

In zusa kids with - obvious - toy guns have been shot in "self-defense". To bring a pellet gun with you in a confrontation like that in kiev would immensely increase your risk of being considered a serious threat and being shot - without giving you any advantage whatsoever.

Dont't get me wrong; I don't doubt that some "freedom fighters" actually had such guns with them. And for a reason, namely to have pictures shot so that they could later diffuse allegations of having used real guns against the police.

Funny how the same groups always use the same tactics ...

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 22, 2014 7:18:00 PM | 137

Mr. Pragma, you can doubt that based on logical constructs all you want. It's not going to change the fact that substantially all of the long arms shown in the stills other than the shotguns are pellet guns one little bit. If you know what you're looking at, it's obvious. I've gone to the trouble of looking at the coverage in more detail and found prime movers specifically associating three guys in four of the stills with air guns. They're air guns.

Posted by: JustPlainDave | Feb 22, 2014 10:22:30 PM | 138

I still doubt that. One should ask where those photos come from.

But even if you were right, so what? Does that make traitors and terrorists nice guys?

And btw, do you want to tell us that the terrorists put the more than 1000 *real* guns they robbed and plundered from authorities and mil. installations aside and said "Oh no. Those are real guns, those are too bad. Let's stick with our worthless pellet guns!"?

It seems reasonable to assume that criminals robbing and plundering real guns from official installations are doing that to use them.

You might have more luck with your story at some zusa or zeu presstitutes like nyt.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 22, 2014 11:33:09 PM | 139

Air guns? We should have gotten some of those harmless little air guns at Occupy. I'm sure the NYPD would hardly have murdered any of us for that.

Does that other peaceful protestor have an air uzi in the other one? And that other peaceful protestor have an air shotgun?

I'm not sure what your point is. In some of those pictures, they have guns, in others, they have air guns. Some of the protestors killed some cops, other times they only beat them to a pulp. In all of these cases, you are not dealing with "peaceful protestors" by any stretch of the imagination, despite all the media pablum.

Posted by: guest77 | Feb 22, 2014 11:37:31 PM | 140

guest77

As you mention it, I also saw a clip where one of the terrorists fired what looked like a submachine gun or a short barreled gun. I'm certain, however, that it was no Russian model (like a Kasthan. I'm confident to recognize pretty every Russian weapon) but rather some western model; bigger than an uzi, maybe a small h&k.
Might be interesting to find out more about the origins and routes of those weapons.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 22, 2014 11:59:01 PM | 141

Guest77, my point is that if one is going to base one's interpretation of events on decontextualized images, one should actually know what is in them.

Posted by: JustPlainDave | Feb 23, 2014 7:54:22 AM | 142

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