Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 22, 2013

Syria: Turkey Continues AlQaeda Support

Seven groups of "secular" Syrian insurgents and bandits have united to form a new "Islamic Front". The groups are Ahrar al-Sham, Suqor al-Sham, Liwa al-Tawhid, Jaish al-Islam, Jabhat al-Kurdiya, Liwa al-Haq and Ansar al-Sham. Most of them were in one form or another part of the U.S. supported Free Syrian Army. The "secular" mask of that army is now officially off. This new front is likely the creation of lots of Saudi money.

Meanwhile Turkey has, without much noise, changed some of its foreign policy and is trying to again make nice with Baghdad and Tehran both of which are supporting the Syrian government. But that does not mean that Turkey ended its support for the Islamists. While it recently pretended to have seized some weapons and to have raided some AlQaeda retreats in Turkey it continues to support Islamists insurgents in Syria of all colors and stripes. Consider the details of a recent report on a border town that Al Qaeda in Iraq and Syria took away from a Free Syrian Army group that demanded shares from transports passing through its territory:

Activists said fighters of the al Qaeda affiliate - Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant, or ISIL - had stormed the headquarters of Suqur al-Islam, a moderate Islamist unit that controlled Atma, and set up roadblocks within the last 48 hours.
...
"The ISIL deployed anti-aircraft guns at the main roundabout and took Atma quietly," said one of the activists, who did not want to be named.

"The Turks have not stopped supplies from crossing into the town and movement across the border fence is normal."
...
Suqur al-Islam is a unit of the Free Syrian Army General Staff, headed by General Selim Idriss, the main opposition military figure, who is based in Turkey. But Suqur al-Islam and the General Staff have fallen out over sharing the weapons crossing through Atma, the activists said.

In the last few days, fighting erupted between Sukur al-Islam and other Free Syrian Army members after Sukur al-Islam seized seven trucks loaded with weapons sent by the General Staff that crossed through Atma.
...
"Basically there was collusion between the General Staff and the ISIL."

The externally supported General Staff of the Free Syrian Army is obviously colluding with Al Qaeda and the Turks are still delivering truckloads of weapons to them.

It is quite urgent for the resistance front to respond to this continued support for AlQaeda from Turkey. So far Turkey has paid too small a price for the crimes it commits on Syria and Syrians. There must be ways to change that.

Posted by b on November 22, 2013 at 08:25 AM | Permalink

Comments

See Nicola Nasser's essay:

'Syria, Egypt Reveal Erdogan’s Hidden “Neo-Ottoman Agenda”'

For more on the background to Turkey's role in the region.

Posted by: William Bowles | Nov 22, 2013 8:39:24 AM | 1

Mintpress GHOUTA storyu update
http://notthemsmdotcom.wordpress.com/2013/11/21/new-statement-from-mint-press-reveals-saudi-pressure-on-reporter/
extract: "It becomes immediately clear from the above statement that the fantastical conspiracies posited by BuzzFeeds' Rosie Gray and former Guardian Editor Brian Whitaker, to name but two, were clearly based on nothing more than wild speculation in a vain and somewhat organised attempt to discredit the report; it is no coincidence Gavlaks' disassociation statement was initially handed to Brian Whitaker's eager protege 'Brown Moses', aka Eliot Higgins, to promote right alongside his lead effort in touting dubious 'evidence' pointing the finger at the Syrian army as responsible for Ghouta, much of which has now been thoroughly debunked."

Posted by: brian | Nov 22, 2013 9:20:40 AM | 2

fundamentalism at its most arrogant: the one true god brigade destroy tree as threat to their god

- ISIS cuts off 150-year-old tree in Atmeh, claiming that people were worshippin the tree rather than "Allah."
zhoof21
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=545368782206981&set=p.545368782206981&type=1&theater

stuff 'allah' and stuff ISIS

Posted by: brian | Nov 22, 2013 9:43:42 AM | 3

Brian - if you examine the sequence of events a bit more closely I believe it is impossible to come to any conclusion other than that the MintPress story was a limited hangout. The Mint Press story makes it appear that the "rebels" did not deliberately poison people - it was all an "accident"

THAT just cannot be true, because as Agnes has repeatedly pointed out alleged footage of the event appeared online hours before the event actually occurred.

THAT proves pre-planning - so the event simply could not have happened as it is portrayed in the Mint Press story.

I suspect Mint Press (and possibly Dale Gavlak too) got conned by Yan Barakat/Yahyah Ababneh (whatever he's calling himself today)

And I suspect that Yan Barakat/Yahyah Ababneh wrote his story at the behest of the Israelis. The effect of his well-crafted piece of propaganda was to introduce the Saudis-Poison Gas connection while at the same time helping to destroy the credibility of Mint Press when the Gavlak/MintPress dispute becomes public.

Remember that an article appeared in the ultra-racist Jerusalem Post under his by-line, which was an astounding mix of blatant propaganda and hasbara


check it out - full of pro-Israel gems


In the mosque, a prayer from the Imam asks for God to make widows of Jewish wives and orphans of Jewish children. It is common to hear the Jewish people referred to as “sons of pigs” and “killers of the prophets.” In the street, to call someone “Jewish” is a heinous insult and may well end in violence. In the minds of most, nearly any problem in the Middle East can be traced back to Israel.

...........

When I crossed the border, I saw the opposite of what people told me. No policeman detained me for hours.

Instead, people were welcoming and one beautiful woman actually said, “Welcome to Israel Habibi.” It was wonderful.

I took a taxi into Jerusalem and when I told the driver I was from Jordan, he responded, “Welcome for King Hussein and his people!” I asked him, “Why not King Abdullah II?” He replied, “Why not?” On the way, he invited me to drink a Pepsi and have a chocolate. He told me, “This is a gift from Israel to Jordan.”

I said, “You are smiling and your welcome is a better gift.”

I suspect brian that were it not for the fact that Yan Barakat/Yahyah Ababneh's Mint Press article contained something that made Saudis and their terrorist friends look bad, you would not be defending him but attacking him.

This does not mean that the terrorists are innocent of setting off Poison Gas rockets - I still believe it was them, by Yan Barakat/Yahyah Ababneh make it look like an accident, and the Saudis are tarred with it. THAT can only be good for the Israelis and their image.

Posted by: foff | Nov 22, 2013 9:52:33 AM | 4

I wouldn't say so, b.

"Basically there was collusion between the General Staff and the ISIL."

This is quite a leap. More like sheer incompetence within the ranks of the 'moderate' militant Islamist rebels. Too busy fighting over guns and killing each other to notice the approaching ISIL.

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Nov 22, 2013 10:14:03 AM | 5

I think the resistance launching attacks on/in Turkiye as b suggested is very bad idea.The Turkish public are powerless against the AKP mafia state..They control EVERYTHING..The resistance should however focus on targeting(assassination) the low hanging fruit of the AKP officials. Like the regional mayor etc etc etc. The average Turk won't shed a tear but the AKP leadership will get the message.

I'm sure the Russians are well aware of how the AKP is behaving in the region but business interest in Turkey trumps everything for Russia..This will not hold forever.

Yesterday, an Iraqi militia group attacked a Saudi border post with mortars as a warning to the Saudi authorities to stop meddling in their country. It's only a matter of time before they start hitting Saudi oil facilities.

Posted by: Zico | Nov 22, 2013 11:53:08 AM | 6

"So far Turkey has paid too small a price for the crimes it commits on Syria and Syrians. There must be ways to change that."

turkey has had to deal with the influx of refugees from syria which amounts to something you might not be taking into consideration here. you make it sound as though assad is a saint as well. i am sure that is unintentional.

Posted by: james | Nov 22, 2013 12:00:54 PM | 7

James @ 7

turkey has had to deal with the influx of refugees from Syria which amounts to something you might not be taking into consideration here. you make it sound as though assad is a saint as well. i am sure that is unintentional

The influx of refugees into Syria was initially encouraged by Turkey.It was a perfect pr campgin that the AKP had hoped to milk till Assad was gone.In fact, it was part of the plan to begin with. The militant, armed/trained by Turkey, went from one village after the other to deliberately attack civilians and drive them to the border. This was to create an image of Turkey being a "caring" and "supportive" country as opposed to Assad's Syria. They were to use that humanitarian disaster as a tool to get NATO/West into attacking Syria. It failed and Turkey's now stuck with not only refugees, but with many jihadis with nowhere to go..

I don't feel sorry for them one bit!!!

Posted by: Zico | Nov 22, 2013 12:42:24 PM | 8

@ James

you make it sound as though assad is a saint as well. i am sure that is unintentional.

Its a war. Syrians don't need a saint, they need someone to crush their enemies. You think the Kurds getting beheaded by Saudi mercenaries would prefer a Saint or a War leader? You think the million Christians who will be ethnically cleansed if the FSA/Jihadists win are looking for a saint?

You want a Saint, go to the Phillipines and hand out food aid. You want to win a war against NATO/Saudi you get someone ruthless enough to win it.

Posted by: Colm O' Toole | Nov 22, 2013 1:00:19 PM | 9

"I think the resistance launching attacks on/in Turkiye as b suggested is very bad idea..."

I don't think that b suggested anything of the kind.

The problem with Turkey and, for example, the US colony called Jordan is that they act with impunity abroad while suppressing opposition at home.
In the case of Turkey there is an obvious vulnerability which it lies in the power of Syria and her two major allies to exploit. Kurdish nationalism is Turkey's nightmare, if Syria, Iran and Iraq reached an anti-wahabi agreement with the Kurds and assisted in the founding of a Kurdish state, Turkey would be checked, while the Israelis would lose their current access to Kurdish lands and Iraq's shia would be able to give Saudi terrorism and nihilism the attention it deserves.
Putting the Saud family estates and NATO-in-Asia under pressure makes a great deal more sense than clinging to the borders Lloyd George introduced into the region for Britain's benefit. It is not as if Iraq has much chance of hanging on to its Kurdish areas anyway.

Posted by: bevin | Nov 22, 2013 1:28:20 PM | 10

turkey has had to deal with the influx of refugees from syria which amounts to something you might not be taking into consideration here.

bizarre reasoning

Turkey helped start this war and helped keep it going.

The influx of refugees is as a direct result of Turkish actions in harbouring, training, arming, & supplying NATO-Terrorists.

Claiming that b should be taking the influx of refugees into account is like claiming that a court should show leniency in sentencing towards someone that killed their own parents, because the murderer is now an orphan

Posted by: foff | Nov 22, 2013 1:40:56 PM | 11

Something else that all parties ought to be thinking about is the dramatic development in Kiev. The Ukraine's rejection of the "ticket on the Titanic" as one RT commentator calls it, proffered by the EU, could be a turning point.

After the treatment meted out in the Baltic states to the people- high unemployment rates, falling wages, massive cuts in social services- even the most starry eyed true believers in the Market and Capitalism's eternal promise are beginning to understand that when the Soviet Union fell, the real victims were the workers of western Europe whose bosses suddenly realised they no longer needed their consent and amity. While eastern Europe's population appeared to be a bottomless well of educated and cheap labour.

That it was susceptible to anti-socialist propaganda and governed, in many cases, by emigre fascists sponsored by the State Department, simply added to its appeal.

If the Ukraine sticks to its decision and moves closer towards the east the strategic situation for all resistance to the Empire will be profoundly different.

Posted by: bevin | Nov 22, 2013 1:48:56 PM | 12

have yo ever actually been to any of the ex-communist countries of Eastern Europe?

Have you ever actually spoken to people that live there?

Posted by: foff | Nov 22, 2013 2:04:49 PM | 13

@10 I think foff you are in too much of a rush to pick fights. james @7 was simply suggesting that Turkey has paid a price in terms of Syrian refugees. Erdogan obviously sees it as a price worth paying to further his plans for Syria.

Posted by: dh | Nov 22, 2013 2:07:39 PM | 14

You may be correct dh - but I saw b say that Turkey has paid too small a price and I saw james react as if b had said Turkey has paid NO price, by pointing out that dealing with the refugees (for which Turkey is in a major part responsible) would constitute some sort of price. He seems to be replying to something that was never said.

Perhaps my reading of it is incorrect

IMO the price Turkey has paid so far IS far too small, and is directly a result of it's own actions. Dealing with refugees is a very small price to pay for all the destruction, death and all-round mayhem Turkey has willingly helped create in Syria.

The small prce being paid by Turkey for it's actions is imo one of the reasons that Turkey has been able to continue doing what it is doing. Until the Turkish people feel some negative effects from the Terrorist-supporting actions of it's Gov't they will do nothing to demand some change in those Anti-Syrian/Pro-Terrorist policies of the Turkish gov't.


Any price Turkey is currently paying is a minute fraction of the price that Syria and Syrians are currently paying as a result of Turkish actions. Until that changes there is little downside, domestically or internationally, for the Turks and their Gov't, so there is little incentive to change.

That's my reading of b's intentions with that statement of his concerning price-paid by Turkey. IMO james has misinterpreted b's meaning - but perhaps I'm wrong

Posted by: foff | Nov 22, 2013 2:34:08 PM | 15

nearly thanksgiving somewhere.

time to carve up the turkey.

at least its head.

syria should annex the turkey carvings.

Posted by: joe anon 1 | Nov 22, 2013 2:35:07 PM | 16

@14 Yes I know it's hard to believe but I think you are wrong in this case. My only reason for commenting was because james is a new poster and may not be familiar with your modus operandi. i.e he may not appreciate your penchant for argument for its own sake.

Posted by: dh | Nov 22, 2013 2:42:57 PM | 17

James @ 7

turkey has had to deal with the influx of refugees from syria which amounts to something you might not be taking into consideration here. you make it sound as though assad is a saint as well. i am sure that is unintentional.


The whole refugee "problem" was deliberately encouraged/promoted by the Turkish government. The Turkish government called them "guests" in the beginning.What changed???.

It was Turkey's trained/armed groups that were going from one village to the next, attacking civilians and pushing them out towards the Turkish border. For the Turkish government, the refugees served two purposes:

1. to portray Turkiye(AKP) as a benevolent party who cares about their Arab neighbours. It was all about projecting Turkey's soft-power in the "Sunni-Arab" world. In other words, a callous PR stunt with deadly consequences.

2. to create a chaotic situation that will force the West to act by attacking Syria.

Both objectives have failed and Turkey's now stuck with many angry refugees and extremists militants with nowhere else to go.

I don't think anybody in the region gives a rats ass what Turkey feels or thinks. They got on that horse so now they have to ride it. I don't feel sorry for them.

Pakistan's quest in the 80s to hurt the Russians brought them some short term gains, but today, Pakistan's a sh*thole and Russia's a very wealthy country. Turkey's fate, with their involvement in Syria, won't be any different.

Posted by: Zico | Nov 22, 2013 2:56:28 PM | 18

Posted by: dh | Nov 22, 2013 2:42:57 PM | 16

Ah, a WhiteKnight.

Looks like you'll have your hands full dh. I'm certainly not the only one that's taken issue with james comment. What a busy little Whiteknight you'll be

Posted by: foff | Nov 22, 2013 3:02:22 PM | 19

@17 All true Zico. Turkey is now stuck with many angry refugees. So would you say Turkey has paid a price or too small a price?

Posted by: dh | Nov 22, 2013 3:02:38 PM | 20

@18 Ad hominem deflection!! Did I also mention your penchant for nitpicking?

Posted by: dh | Nov 22, 2013 3:04:49 PM | 21

@b,you said it is time that the resistance axis made Turkey pay for her crimes.That will not happen at least as we imagine( and desire ).You see the Resistance axis strategy(Iran,Syria and Hezb are very much in symbiosis in their thinking)is the same as Taichi in martial arts,use the strength of your enemy to defeat him.This means a strategy based on the long term and you can see the success it is having in Syria,it had in 2006 july war or in the struggle between Iran and the west.So they will prevail against the AKp in Turkey but not as we envisage it.And don't forget that the talk in syria about the stolen Liwa' Iskenderun and its reconquest is becoming everyday more open witness the last speech of Mufti Hassoon in Tartus.

Posted by: Nobody | Nov 22, 2013 3:06:58 PM | 22

Saudi Arabia also needs to pay a steep price for helping to reak havoc in Syria and Iraq

Posted by: Andoheb | Nov 22, 2013 3:07:02 PM | 23

As for james and his reference to Assad's sainthood I like Colm's response @ 8. He may not be a saint but he hasn't deliberately created a civil war in Turkey.

Posted by: dh | Nov 22, 2013 3:09:36 PM | 24

@17 All true Zico. Turkey is now stuck with many angry refugees. So would you say Turkey has paid a price or too small a price?

No, I don't think they've paid anything at all. I remember one time Erdogan himself, as part of his AKP "Sunni" PR stunt, went to one of his refugee camps and praised them and promised to pray with them in Damascus soon. The dude's enjoying it.

One thing for sure, Turkey won't get away with the crimes they've committed in Syria. That'll explain why Davutoglu and Erdogan are getting more and more desperate.

Posted by: Zico | Nov 22, 2013 3:12:24 PM | 25

@24 Thanks for the reasoned response. My own feeling is that Erdogan considers the refugees a price worth paying. He may even expect them to be grateful. I still can't figure out what kind of Syria he wants.

Posted by: dh | Nov 22, 2013 3:15:25 PM | 26

@24 Thanks for the reasoned response. My own feeling is that Erdogan considers the refugees a price worth paying. He may even expect them to be grateful. I still can't figure out what kind of Syria he wants.

You have to understand the AKP..They're best described as takfiris/salafis in suit and without the beard. All Erdogan wants is a Muslims Brotherhood equivalent of his AKP in Damascus. This plan was hatched long time ago. Some say somewhere in 2006 when Hezbollah defeated the Israelis. That defeat sent panic and shockwaves through Gulf Arab capitals that they agreed to destroy Syria, which will then isolate and weaken Hezbollah. They've bet their collective houses on this plot and they're not going back. It's now or never for them..

Posted by: Zico | Nov 22, 2013 3:22:35 PM | 27

@26 Thanks. I get that Turkey is split between Islamists and secularists. Assad would be perceived as secular I guess. I also realise that NATO is a big factor. Might it also have to do with being rejected by the EU?

Posted by: dh | Nov 22, 2013 3:28:50 PM | 28

@26 Thanks. I get that Turkey is split between Islamists and secularists. Assad would be perceived as secular I guess. I also realise that NATO is a big factor. Might it also have to do with being rejected by the EU?


The average Turk doesn't give a damn what Assad is/was whatever. They're happy with their lives until the "Arab spring" came.In fact, they whole of Turkey couldn't give a rats ass what happened to Syria. Syria became Turkey's problem because the AKP wanted it to become one. They needed an external enemy to rally the masses(typical AKP PR technique) and also, Erdogan's personal project of installing a MB friendly government in Damascus.

Of course, things didn't go according to plan so now all Turks will have to bare the brunt of whatever comes next. The only reason NATO still needs Turkey is Russia. If one day things get better between Russia and the West, Turkey will no longer be useful. As for the EU, forget it. With Istanbul teaming with jihadis from all over the world on their way to Syria, NO EU country will be stupid enough to let Turkey in - at least now in the foreseeable future..It's a pipe dream!!!

Posted by: Zico | Nov 22, 2013 3:51:22 PM | 29

Well, that was truly scintillating.

anyway - via Xymphora

.........The Saudis use their stooges to attack the Iranian embassy in Lebanon, then urge their citizens to leave Lebanon as it is too dangerous.  In the odd new world order, a 'Western intelligence agency' (i.e., the Americans) [allegedly] unsuccessfully tried to warn Hezbollah of the attack.

Posted by: foff | Nov 22, 2013 4:07:23 PM | 30

of course it's all

According to a local security official who asked to remain anonymous because he did not have permission to talk to reporters,

So, probably not true at all

Posted by: foff | Nov 22, 2013 4:09:52 PM | 31

@ dh | 13 james @7 was simply suggesting that Turkey has paid a price in terms of Syrian refugees.

foff is right, Turkey havent paid anything (yet) to speak off, and therefore as you concluded Erdogan obviously sees it as a price worth paying to further his plans for Syria.

Turkey should pay the price for its mass crimes against humanity in two ways:

1. If Turkey (Saudis, Qatar, etc) are destroyed through proxies, tens of thousands dead, beheadings and explosions are daily life.
2. Their leadership is targeted and killed.

...Or at the very least retaliation through economic sabotage. This wouldnt be much of a retaliation, but at least might get them thinking.

Since none of that is happening, Turkey, Saudis and the rest of terror gang are continuing their operations, since their calculation isnt changed. They get no retribution, proxy terror is cheap, their enemies are destroyed one by one.

Resistance axis is way, WAY too benign. They do their utmost not to retaliate in any form, neither eye-for-an-eye, nor economic, nor anything. They lay on the ground while getting kicked and instead of getting back they say "sirs, just dont hurt your legs please" :)

I fully understand Resistance axis doesnt want full scale war since they are inferior militarily, but clandestine retaliations are absolute must if Resistance want Terror axis to start thinking if its worth it.

Remember what US did in Lebanon 1983 and how retaliation forced them to pack the bags and leave? Now Terror axis does absolutely whatever they want to Syria, Iran and others, with zero repercussions. Its sad, if not pathetic.

Posted by: Harry | Nov 22, 2013 4:26:12 PM | 32

my apologies for making a statement that could have been misconstrued.. thanks for all the response as well. i am naive as the next person, maybe even a bit more. i realize hostility is an easy feeling to evoke and live by and wonder how the hostilities among people will ever disappear. i suppose there are many people that don't want that, but i would like to see it.

so, turkey hasn't paid enough for it's transgressions.. okay.. as someone else here said - what about saudi arabia? i would like to add to this israel and usa.. what price have they paid in all of this? you see, from where i am it looks like there are a lot of folks to blame in all this and we may as well just all blow ourselves up while we are trying to divvy up all the hostility we hold in our hearts towards others...

i was in turkey over a year ago and feel in love with the place and people although i was only there for a month. i know it is the same in turkey as it is anywhere - the ones making decisions and acting on them don't always reflect the people of the country. i feel this way especially about the usa, although i live in canada where we have a leader at present i consider a real bonehead as well capable of doing a lot of stupit things not in the best interests of canada..

i will try to hold off speaking from a place of emotion the next time i post..

Posted by: james | Nov 22, 2013 4:43:48 PM | 33

what about saudi arabia? i would like to add to this israel and usa.. what price have they paid in all of this?

Syria lacks ability to project military force over distance.

turkey on the other hand is right next door.

As is Israel - but Israel is like a one of those Mafia "Made-Men" that Hollywood makes so many films about.

you see, from where i am it looks like there are a lot of folks to blame in all this and we may as well just all blow ourselves up while we are trying to divvy up all the hostility we hold in our hearts towards others...

sounds wonderful - really does. But while you're waiting for peace-and-love to break out amongst the hippy-Terrorists in Syria, real live Syrians, men women and children, are being murdered by the minute by these guys. Raped, beheaded, even crucified occasionally.

Until the people backing these murderers, such as the Turkish Gov't who are harbouring, training, arming, & supplying NATO-Terrorists, feel some incentive to back off, then all that Raping, murdering & beheading will continue.

These people don't stop just because you ask nicely.

The most immediate incentive the Syrians can offer is to return the favour. That's very very unfortunate for whoever will be on the receiving end, but if you object to that then what else would you suggest?

Someone earlier suggested economic retaliation - but I cannot see how the Syrians can carry out any such economic retaliation.

So - given all that, what would you suggest?

Posted by: foff | Nov 22, 2013 5:00:14 PM | 34

its hard to credit this BUT western intel tipped lebanon to likely attack
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/11/20/209197/report-western-intelligence-agency.html

Posted by: brian | Nov 22, 2013 5:01:35 PM | 35

@ foff | 32

Precisely, retaliation is needed to STOP these wars, and not to start some Vendetta. Unless Terror axis calculation changes, they will continue with impunity.

Resistance axis wont do such inhumane terror wars as retaliation, nor they have salafis on payroll.

What they can do:

1) elimination of causes, lets say main terrorists Erdogan and Bandar Bush are within reach, why not arrange their meeting with Allah? :) New leaders might be less psychotic.

2) by economic sabotage I dont mean economic blockade, only West has such capability. What I mean is oil/gas going into flames in PGGC, crucial factories getting same treatment in Turkey, etc. Once massive loses accumulates, terror states might reconsider continuing of such activities against Syria, Iran, etc.

Posted by: Harry | Nov 22, 2013 5:13:54 PM | 36

@brian - see #29

Posted by: foff | Nov 22, 2013 5:14:48 PM | 37

foff - you have an interesting way of spinning shit.. i like how you ended the post with a question, lol..

Posted by: james | Nov 22, 2013 7:10:33 PM | 38

Andoheb@22,

The Saudis are ruled by Wahhabi scum. This is why the Saudis were banished from the Islamic world for most of their existence; they lived in the middle of the Arabian desert and were the enemies of Islamic progress in the realm of literature, politics, law, and philosophy.

When the British divided the Ottoman Empire, they used the radical Saudis (the Arab version of the KKK) to gain control of the Holy cities, put them in power, and gave them lots of money and guns. So long as they kept the oil flowing and kept people beaten into submission, then they were allowed to run the “Kingdom.”

So you see, Islam has been hijacked by a bunch of radicals cloaked as Muslims, when really they are just Godless scumbags paid by Western governments and corporations.

Posted by: Cynthia | Nov 22, 2013 7:37:09 PM | 39

@Bevin (#9);

I disagree.

"Kurdish nationalism is Turkey's nightmare"

It is not just Turkey's nightmare, it is also Iran's, Syria's and Iraq's; what is more it should be the nightmare for any wise Kurd be he/she an Iranian, Turkish, Iraqi or a Syrian citizen. Drawing borders based on ethnicity in this region is a sure recipe for disaster. It is a recipe for ethnic cleansing, perpetual ethnic war, wide spread civil war and failed states (in fact failed "statelets") which is exactly what the imperialism would wish to have, for there is nothing that imperialism fears more than a strong nation.
In fact it won't be just the Kurds. In case of Iran this is an exact recipe for a disaster far worse than Yugoslavia. First it will be Kurds, then comes the turn for Baluchies, then Azeries, and then who's next? Gilaks? Mazandaranies? Khuzestan region has a considerable number of ethnic Arabs too... Then what? The definition of "language" (and language is the only thing in this region which would define ethnicity) can be very vague, I can divide proper Persian into many dialects and consider them all different languages and then call each population an ethnicity.

"while the Israelis would lose their current access to Kurdish lands "

Geographically speaking, Israelies have no access to either Kurdish regions or to Azerbaijan, but in reality they are manipulating both of those regions as they wish. So If the "axis of resistance" cannot prevent Israelies to manipulate these regions right now, they will be a hell of a lot more powerless to stop Israelies, if there is an "independent" (!!) Kurdish state in this region.

"It is not as if Iraq has much chance of hanging on to its Kurdish areas anyway."

Yes that is true, but WHY? The reason is precisely because of the direct military interventions that USA has made in this region since 1991. Kurdish nationalists simply do not have the power to break the states in these region to create an independent state of their own. They can't do it with one nation much less with destroying 4 nations to create a unified state of their own. Kurdish nationalists know that perfectly well and that is precisely why they do US/Israel's bidding. They know very well that the only way to break these four nations is through war and they know that the only way to make and win such a war is to use the US military machine.
There can be no independent Kurdish state in this region unless through brute military force and occupation of US. That is the reality (wether we like it or not) and Kurdish nationalists know that very well.

And finally the question remains, to create a new "independent" US colony in this region for what? As I said this once before (some 4 months ago), this is not about "independence", it is about "separatism". And the problem of the people in this region will NOT be solved through separatism and balkanization of this region; they can only be solved through democratization (and though it is obvious, let me re-emphasize that by "democratization" I don't mean liberal democracy). Separatism does not bring democratic rights, in fact in this particular case it will only lead to ethnic based (ie. racist) dictatorships under the diktats of USA and ethnic cleansing of all new "statelets" from ethnic "impurities" to create ethnically "pure" nations. The solution is not dividing the states in this region into "statelets", the solution is democratizing the states in this region.
If we are interested in the welfare and dignity of the Kurds, it could only be achieved through making the states of their citizenship (ie. Iran, Turkey, Iraq and Syria) democratic, not by giving them a 'land bogged statelet' which is an undemocratic colony of USA.

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Nov 22, 2013 7:38:02 PM | 40

ingratitude incarnate: not long after shaking hands with thesaudi devils, Netanyahoo compares 'progressive' israel to fundamentalist islam (code for Iran)

how can these two bozos who are backing fundamentalist islam in the form of alqaeda affiliates in syria not crack a grin (fooled yuh!)?

';“What we see here today is the future,” Netanyahu said in introductory remarks at an event at Tel Aviv University that was also attended by French President Francois Hollande.'
http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-islamists-taking-us-back-to-the-dark-ages/

Netanyahoo says relations with saudi arabia are good!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvJMJcVb3ZA

Posted by: brian | Nov 22, 2013 7:42:20 PM | 41

mr everything:copt christian muslim nazi! gets uninvited!

Jan, a Coptic Christian Muslim Brotherhood member, is also active in Egypt’s Nazi party.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/georgetown-rescinds-invitation-to-egyptian-nazi/

Posted by: brian | Nov 22, 2013 7:46:58 PM | 42

Luckily I doubt the Syrian government will be looking to the provocateurs here for guidance. I don't see that retaliation gets the Syrians any closer to their goal of preserving Syria as a secular, multi-ethnic state, and probably would put them further away from it.

Having dodged the US bombing, having seen the Turks rise up against Erdogan, having seen the Saudis look like fools on the world stage and watching the Israelis poop their pants over Iran all while the Syrian Arab Army wraps up victory after victory - they seem well on the path to saving Syria. So what, exactly, would a Syrian attack - the attack of a battered country under siege at home - on Turkey, SA, or Israel accomplish?

As one example: It's unlikely that the Turks - abut more importantly the Turkish people - will cooly take it as "very very unfortunate for whoever will be on the receiving end" of a Syrian attack when that "whoever" will be their friends and family. The Syrians right now have the support of the Turkish people - if not the Turkish government. The Turkish people, recently focused on bringing down the AKP in ways that Syria couldn't hope to do in a hundred years, could easily be turned against Syria should Syria begin attacks in Syria. Syria has Turkey by the balls in many ways - the protestors, the Kurds, the relationship with Iraq and Russia - all of these put Turkey's current policy in a tight bind. Though they can still host the jihadis - they have to watch their step and clearly have little to stand on in regards to the conflict.

I'm not sure what any one bases their idea that the military powers surrounding Syria would simply fold under whatever kind of attack Syria could mount (presuming Syria has force to spare) except for the idea that it might be fun to fight until the last drop of Syrian blood. Syria should not turn away from what appears to be assured victory and go back into a dark, unknown future of a year ago. Syria seems to be slowly but surely pressing ahead towards victory. No doubt they have a ways to go and many more will die at the hands of the terrorists. But the risks seem greater than any possible reward.

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 22, 2013 8:05:09 PM | 43

Benjamin is weak in history,
Benjamin Netanyahu @netanyahu 21 Nov
The real Iran is led by a leader who once again attacked the United States and was responded to with chants of "Death to America" 2/2
------------
or he'd remember the USS Liberty..and what were the dancing israelis doing in NY that fateful morning?
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html

and 1953, america did what to iran?

Posted by: brian | Nov 22, 2013 8:06:04 PM | 44

@41 "could easily be turned against Syria should Syria begin attacks in Turkey."

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 22, 2013 8:09:49 PM | 45

<@ 36

james you can "lol" all you want and blather about spin all you want. Kinda clashes with your "I'm Mr Very-Concerned and think we should all turn flower-power and just love everyone, so why can't we all just get along" persona that you projected earlier, though don't it?

Essentially despite all your blather about love and peace, all you got's "Lolling" bullshit

You appeared to be serious and appeared to pretend to ask serious questions. When someone replied with actually analysis you retreated into seemingly clever Miley-Cyrus-like retorts. Well done. A perfect product of the internet-age. The MIC should be proud that their money was well spent. so far yo have refused to address anything relevant. Your "love and peace" persona looks a little hollow, james. Vacuous barely even begins to describe it.

"Luckily I doubt the Syrian government will be looking to the provocateurs here for guidance. "

Yeah - I can imagine them seeking out you Holodomor Denying Godwinites for tactical advice

Posted by: foff | Nov 22, 2013 8:24:09 PM | 46

As one example: It's unlikely that the Turks - abut more importantly the Turkish people - will cooly take it as "very very unfortunate for whoever will be on the receiving end" of a Syrian attack when that "whoever" will be their friends and family

Gee - ya think?

Posted by: foff | Nov 22, 2013 8:25:28 PM | 47

@36 You're in the big league here james. Hippies will be taken out and shot. We want serious armchair strategies only.

Posted by: dh | Nov 22, 2013 8:35:59 PM | 48

Since it's all fantasy - I can dream can't I?

Posted by: foff | Nov 22, 2013 8:41:49 PM | 49

We're all wide open to your suggestions, MrSunTzu DH.

You have the floor.

Do please try and fill it with something intelligent, for a change

Posted by: foff | Nov 22, 2013 8:55:23 PM | 50

Me? I'm just the board gadfly. I look to you keyboard warriors for guidance.

Posted by: dh | Nov 22, 2013 9:04:19 PM | 51

You have the floor, Mr SunTuz DH, how yo use it is up to you.

Posted by: foff | Nov 22, 2013 9:09:03 PM | 52

And you are who exactly to be dispensing such magnanimity?

Posted by: dh | Nov 22, 2013 9:11:54 PM | 53

You have the floor, Mr SunTzu DH,

how you use it is up to you ;-)

Posted by: foff | Nov 22, 2013 9:16:28 PM | 54

Yawn.

Posted by: dh | Nov 22, 2013 9:20:23 PM | 55

@44 foff
you don't know me and i don't know you.. better to leave it at that, but if you enjoy firing bullets with your words on a keyboard - all the power to you. it is hard to take you seriously..

Posted by: james | Nov 22, 2013 9:33:57 PM | 56

You have the floor, Mr SunTzu james,

how you use it is up to you

Posted by: foff | Nov 22, 2013 9:43:13 PM | 57

foff - i mostly come here to read b's comments.. i have found in a short amount of time here that i generally really like what bevin has to say as well. i ask questions or make a comment occasionally. that is about the extent of my involvement. my reason for coming here is to learn.

i like lao tzu. i haven't read sun tzu.
i like this saying from lao tzu 'those who speak do not know, and those who know do not speak'...

Posted by: james | Nov 22, 2013 10:27:04 PM | 58

This blog improved with the demise of "somebody". Now another (?)
asshole has moved in to fill "somebody's" shoes. I'll be back after b inevitably gives this new (?) asshole his walking papers.

Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Nov 22, 2013 10:31:38 PM | 59

I think that bevin puts forth an interesting idea, one which might benefit all the peoples of the region ... if not all the governments ... and it could, on the Iranian-Syrian-Iraqi sides be accomplished among themselves, without interference from the USSA, leading to a more solid and resistant regional block, and might well enable a united push by Syria, Kurdistan, Iraq, and Iran on Turkey on behalf of its Kurds.

pirouz-2 makes some points ... but all the bad things he warns of seem to obtain right now, and have since partition ... when last 'we' interested ourselves in the welfare and dignity of the all the peoples of the region,

Posted by: john francis lee | Nov 22, 2013 10:38:22 PM | 60

Pirouz_2
Thank you for your thoughtful contribution. I was, to an extent, playing Devil's Advocate.

I am inclined to think that the best answer to the imperialist tactic of divide and rule- whose ideological base is that "ethnicities always fight each other" and will do until they are exhausted- is best dealt with by a refusal to conform to the, historically false, stereotype.
It is worth remembering that this excuse for intervention has, in one form or another, been behind every imperial enterprise in the past five centuries.

The truth is that, for hundreds of years, there was very little internecine strife between the various communities of the Ottoman caliphate. The caliphate was a collection of provinces, subject to taxation. The further they were from Istanbul the more autonomy they had. The Kurds generally ruled themselves. Or were ruled by Kurdish magnates.

And the same was true not only of the Ottoman but of other large states and empires in the region. It was something that made, for example, India such easy prey for the imperialists.

The myth that Arabs and Kurds are always at each others throats, like the myth that Shia and Sunni (Christian and Jewish) communities cannot co-exist but must be separated for their own good by imperial forces or their surrogates, is nonsense.
The exploitation, the invention of ethnicities and nationalisms, by imperialists has been a means of subduing people and bringing them into submission to the Empire-as-Policeman.

You are probably right about the Kurdish situation, something of which you have much more knowledge than I, but surely the case can be made that so long as Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey insist on imposing "national" identities on their populations (and generally what they are actually doing is to impose a local version of what Soviet critics called Great Russian chauvinism) they are making life very easy for the US, the zionists and others who grow fat by fishing in troubled waters.
If Syria and Iraq merely concede autonomy to the Kurds and postpone a proper constitutional discussion and convention to the return of peace, they stand a very good chance of being able to withdraw from one front to concentrate on the real enemy the imperialists and their auxiliaries. In practical terms, in Syria and Iraq this is already happening, because neither government has the power to impose itself on the Kurds. In Syria it seems that the Kurds know that they will have to defend themselves from the wahabi militias, and, by clear implication their co-sponsors in Israel and the US/NATO system.
That ought to spell trouble for Turkey and Bandar's banditti.

There is another way of looking at your prediction of inter-ethnic strife until doomsday. That is that there are so many communities living together, so many ethnicities, religions, sects and cults, factions and clans-and they lived together with remarkably little internecine strife until the coming of the western Empires that it is not hard to predict that, when the imperialists are expelled, those modus vivendi will return.
Until Israel set to work dividing communities, for example, Jews had lived throughout the region for hundreds of years. Nor did the Druze need jobs in the Israeli Border Guards to live in past centuries. Nor did the Alawi in Syria or Assyrians in Iraq require western European colonial governments to save them.

Iran is something of an exception because, quite apart from its long history, it has been subjected to enormous pressures since the Second World War, by the Empire. The first phase was the imposition of the Shah and the development of the world's worst tyranny in preserving his power as an American puppet. Then came what we have now, forty plus years of war, trade war, financial confiscations, terrorist attacks, state sponsored sabotage, assassinations and racist slurs.
Such things drive those victimised, in this case the people of Iran, together in self defence. So it is not improbable that the great majority of Iranians, whatever their ethnic or cultural sub community, like the French in 1792 are nationalists, impatient at separatists, behind whom they see imperialist puppet-masters.

Posted by: bevin | Nov 22, 2013 11:39:08 PM | 61

59 comments.
Of these 16 are from foff.
And 14 are replies to him.
I have no evidence that foff is a troll. But, if he isn't, he is missing his vocation.

Posted by: bevin | Nov 22, 2013 11:46:20 PM | 62


narwani's newest:

http://english.al-akhbar.com/blogs/sandbox/deal-or-no-deal-irans-stock-keeps-rising

discuss.

Posted by: wevin | Nov 22, 2013 11:56:46 PM | 63

james

did we meet b4, the latest in a antiwar.com thread,
just curious ?

Posted by: denk | Nov 23, 2013 1:24:36 AM | 64

This story, about Turkey playing the role of EU/NATO/FrUKUSi's obedient turkey/useful idiot, is actually quite encouraging. With Russia ready to blow the crap out of anyone stupid enough to get caught committing an hostile military act against Syria - no-one in the Timid Little Axis of Wimpiness (FrUKUSi) has the balls to make a move.
So what are they doing?
The same furtive, sneaky, half-baked, ridiculously haphazard, on-again-off-again stuff they've been doing for the past 2 1/2 years - that they already know hasn't, doesn't, and won't be enough to 'topple' Assad. Thierry Meyssan (Voltaire.net) thinks Assad & Friends have already won and I agree. This is just sour (proxy) grapes from the losers via everyone's favourite dimwit, Erdogan.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 23, 2013 1:32:10 AM | 65

27/26 AKP are a different beast. Don't forget Turkey is the former empire. Shrunk from a huge Ottoman empire. On the cold war front line to the Soviet Union. On the front line to Iraq, Iran, with a huge Kurdish nation living in all those countries plus Syria. With ethnic and religious connections across the Middle East and the ex-Soviet Union.

I am not sure Turkey has an interest to be in the EU - it is a US/NATO idea. The EU just "lost" Ukraine to Putin by insisting on political change.

What we see is the effect of US disengagement - documented by this Hürriyet headline

Turkish PM Erdoğan to Putin: Take us to Shanghai

ST PETERSBURG PM Erdoğan pleads with President Putin to allow Turkey into the ‘Shanghai Five,’ in an about-turn from Turkey’s recent re-engagement with the EU

AKP are business people. Business people are completely unprincipled in terms of policy and ideology.


Posted by: somebody | Nov 23, 2013 1:33:08 AM | 66

By the way, the Shanghai Five are
China, Russia, Usbekistan, Kasachstan, Kirgisistan and Tadschikistan, the last four speak a language that is closely related to Turkish.

The EU is no match to that.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 23, 2013 1:35:56 AM | 67

@Bevin (#59);

"but surely the case can be made that so long as Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey insist on imposing "national" identities on their populations (and generally what they are actually doing is to impose a local version of what Soviet critics called Great Russian chauvinism) they are making life very easy for the US, the zionists and others who grow fat by fishing in troubled waters. "

I think we are concentrating on the wrong point. One has to look at what lies beneath the surface of the "problem". The problem in my *humble* opinion is not so much political as it is 'economical'. Kurdish areas in both Iran and Turkey (I don't know much about Iraq and Syria) -for reasons which have absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity, language or race- are some of the least developed parts of those two countries. People live in substandard (indeed subhuman) conditions and that is the root cause of the problem. No one with a decent health care, universal education and a meaningful prospect of having a decent job and a meaningful economic activity picks up a gun and become a 'rebel', irrespective of what language they get their education in school- that is *if* they have any school.. And no matter how much of 'political' freedoms, autonomy or even down right sovereignty you give people, it will not stop them from becoming 'rebels', if they don't have the prospect of a decent life. For as long as they are forced to live in poverty while a small elite prospers, they will become rebels -irrespective of the national identity of the elite.
Giving ethnic based autonomy is not the solution, "democratization", a social order where people feel themselves as the owners of the economic apparatus is the solution.
For as long as we are busy doing "political reforms" without addressing the root causes, we will not solve the problem, we will only change the 'national form' of the problem.

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Nov 23, 2013 5:07:01 AM | 68

Egypt expels Turkish ambassador... so who is the resistance?
http://www.lemonde.fr/afrique/article/2013/11/23/l-egypte-expulse-l-ambassadeur-de-turquie-apres-les-accusations-d-erdogan_3519273_3212.html

Posted by: Mina | Nov 23, 2013 7:11:31 AM | 69

The strategy outlined in the Oded Yinon plan for Israel in the 1980,s is not a lot different from to-day...http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/articles/article0005345.html

Posted by: harrylaw | Nov 23, 2013 7:36:33 AM | 70

@POA - Haha. Speak of the devil ;)

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 23, 2013 9:42:13 AM | 71

Somebody @ 64.
According to the last par in the Hurriyet link, Erdogan said (in Putin's presence?)...

Erdoğan said delays to the peace conference were simply buying time for al-Assad. “The civilian population has been killed with planes, helicopters, tanks and shells. In Syria, the regime bears the primary responsibility for this. On the opposite side, extremist groups also bear responsibility. But they have only short- and long-range weapons. But the regime does not differentiate,” Erdoğan said.

...which seems a peculiar thing to tack onto the end of a visit devoted to grovelling for a leg-up to the SCO.
Talk about mixed messages...

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 23, 2013 11:26:54 AM | 72

@62 denk - nope.. haven't been to antiwar in many years.. glad to know it is still going! i liked the rainmondo guy, or however you spell his name.

Posted by: james | Nov 23, 2013 11:57:23 AM | 73

Something I have yet to figure out. Why has Syria not done anything about Saudi, Qatari and Kuwaiti crimes. No car bombs on Riyadh, no attacks on Doha or Kuwait and the Syrians seem to be just taking it on the chin and keeping a defensive profile. I would really like to start hearing some pay back in Riyadh, Doha and Kuwait, give them back some of their own medicine.

Posted by: ana souri | Nov 23, 2013 12:46:01 PM | 74

Oh Jeez yet another one who publicly wanks him her or it self into a stupor using the keyboard, and let's see, I make that fourteen comments aiding and abetting... Bless its scaly little head it's like the rest of its species it thrives on attention. Why not refuse to do what it wants and ...


s

c

r

o
l

l

right on past.

Dubhaltach

Posted by: Dubhaltach | Nov 23, 2013 12:51:31 PM | 75

When are you going to demand that Russia and Iran pay for the serious crimes it has committed against the Syrian people, no less than Basher (not to mention his daddy)?

Posted by: donkeytale | Nov 23, 2013 2:33:39 PM | 76

@72 One possible answer:

I can't imagine Assad has any desire to do so, relying on the fact that he is fighting terrorism, not engaging in it. And also knowing that the Russians, Chinese and Iranians cannot support him internationally should he start a campaign of attacks in other countries.

Though it is hard not to wish to see Riyadh burning in revenge for the Kingdom's poisonous role in Syria and all over the Middle East, we shouldn't forget that terrorism is what the west and its puppet states do - not the Resistance. They actually seem to take seriously that they are fighting terror - unlike the west and Israel who only mouth platitudes while being the biggest purveyors of it.

Seeing the al Qaeda rabid dogs turn on their masters would certainly be a satisfying development, but the chances of this happening seem slim - provided continued Saudi/Gulf support - even after their certain ejection from Syria. And even then, knowing their ideology, we could guess that we'd see them not focus on a difficult battle with the Saudis, but slink into the politically chaotic countries in the region like Egypt or Libya. Is there any hope that these fanatics - born and bred and brainwashed under the careful eye of the Saudi Mutaween - might suddenly turn against them? Would even the facts of the Saudi relationship with Israel change their thinking? Possibly not, given we've not seen to many actual examples (if any) of takfiri anger towards Israel apart from droll words when they've been forced to look like people who actually give two shits about Islam and Israeli expansionism.

What needs to happen is an actual "Arab Spring" type scenario in the Kingdom (and such things do exist - Bahrain being the perfect model) that would focus the Saudi people's and rest of the world's attention onto the nature of the Saudi Kingdom, its poisonous alliance with Israel, and its unceasing support for al Qaeda-type terrorists. This would put them in a bind internationally and at home, a situation which is certainly long, long overdue.

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 23, 2013 3:38:25 PM | 77

@76 Hey, the comedian has returned.

Anyone who can speak of the "crimes" of Russia and Iran in the Middle East as Western-backed terrorists run amok through the country, slaughtering and beheading their way across the landscape, would do better to give us a report on the happenings inside his colon, where he obviously has a perfect view.

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 23, 2013 3:52:23 PM | 78

@76, out of his depth. He needs to get an account at reddit where his brand of "analysis" is applauded.

Posted by: ruralito | Nov 23, 2013 4:00:06 PM | 79

OT - speaking about turkey, anyone have any thoughts on egypt expelling the turkey ambassador from egypt today?

Posted by: james | Nov 23, 2013 4:46:44 PM | 80

@ana suri,
We all want to see pay back time for the criminals,Kingdom of horrors,Jamal pacha Assaffah,Sheikdom of rats and co but consider:if the syrian state had gone the path of vengeance it will have lost its focus in Syria and lost that very valuable card that the foreign ministry has been slowly building in defense of international law and UN charter meaning defending the sovreignty of Syria and the principle of auto determination for the syrian people.Morover the strategy of the Resistance Axis is based on the principle of using the ennemy strength to defeat him.As Bevin or Guest 77 I think has suggested here why take revenge on your very despicable enemies if you are slowly but very surely winning on the terrain( as Bashar has planned all along )with the result that you are tremendously weakening your enemy on his own turf week after week showing all its contradictions and pushing him slowly but definitely on the brink of implosion as it is obvious today to all who have eyes in the kingdom of horrors and Turkey?

Posted by: Nobody | Nov 23, 2013 4:58:51 PM | 81

"speaking about turkey, anyone have any thoughts on egypt expelling the turkey ambassador from egypt today?"
Yes, but I'd be much more interested in reading others'.
This article may put Egypt into perspective. It is worth reading anyway, the author is an intellectual force for good:
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/11/22/chilean-socialism-1-indonesian-fascism-0/

Then there's this, also from counterpunch, which indicates the galloping fascism in the land the Saud's own:
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/11/22/ethiopian-migrants-victimized-in-saudi-arabia/

Posted by: bevin | Nov 23, 2013 9:17:17 PM | 82

@bevin

That first article is not for the faint of heart. This little fascist hellhole, discussed within, is beyond the stuff of nightmares: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Baviera).

....

As for Saudi Arabia, looks like anti-African pogroms are just the latest thing they've picked up from Israel.

And to add insult to injury, the Ethiopian police crack down on the anti-anti-Ethiopian protests at home: Washington Post

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 23, 2013 10:48:45 PM | 83

Its ironic how some dont understand Syria wont (and cant) do overt retaliation, but its not the same as covert retaliation! Which is an absolute must to change enemies calculations. If Terror axis only lose some petro-dollars or credibility (which they never had in the first place), then they dont lose anything worthwhile, while their attacked countries lose a LOT if not everything.

Hypocrisy, political contradictions and w/e doesnt matter the slightest to the West and their puppets, unlike some here presume for some unknown reasons, based on no reality. Since aggressors arent paying the price in any shape or form (minor nuisances doesnt count), they'll continue the terror in one way or another. "Oh no, Saudis are exposed as hypocrites and Turks have some refugees, that surely hurts them as much as destruction of Syrians or Libyans!" Do I even need comment? :)

Keeping head in the sand a la ostrich wont help the Resistance one bit, its actually very shortsighted policy. How much precisely this tactic helped Gaddafi? His mutilated corpse is somewhere in the ditch and country is completely destroyed. Syria is extensively destroyed as well, and it keeps piling up. If it would lose (lets say for argument sake), next country to be destroyed would be Iran. After that - Russia's Islamic region, etc.

At which point does the Resistance's ostrich pulls the head of the sand and does something about it? Wishful hope of outlasting doesnt work, you can ask Gaddafi and others.If Syria does outlast, it would be a Pyrrhic victory anyway, again because Resistance didnt do anything before or during these wars to prevent/shorten them, by imposing the cost on aggressors by themselves. Common sense.

Resistance can hurt enemies in so many ways even if they cant engage in open war with aggressors, yet they choose to keep heads in the sand and hope problems will go away. Thats mildly speaking not very bright policy, neither short nor long term.

Posted by: Harry | Nov 24, 2013 1:40:26 AM | 84

thanks bevin, those articles paint some strong contrasts. lets hope egypt is able to go the route of chile, as opposed to indonesia..as for the dynamics in saudi arabia from nov 4th forward, sa sounds like a hell hole for any foreigner at this point..

Posted by: james | Nov 24, 2013 2:34:20 AM | 85

84) It is bright policy if you calculate that your enemy is retreating anyway.

Costs of escalation are high for all parties involved. "The resistance" are many parties with a stake in the outcome who do not want to risk their stake.

The place to stop the terror would be Saudi (and Gulf) financing, not Turkey which is bribed and intimidated into its role.

I agree with you, "the West" will not stop the terror as long as Gulf money is paid.

As long as money is paid, Western policy will be two, three, four, five faced or more.

However, something very significant has shifted when ex-colonies begin to pay their former colonizers for internal warfare.

Libya was a net loss for Europe and it hurt - the European part of NATO will not take part in anything like that anytime soon.

Posted by: somebody | Nov 24, 2013 5:00:22 AM | 86

72) yep, to interpret politicians talk is not easy. So Erdogan said in Putin's presence that he wants a Syrian peace conference rather sooner than later. Now, who want a Syrian peace conference and who does not?

Posted by: somebody | Nov 24, 2013 5:11:03 AM | 87

@84 I guess I'm not sure what you are suggesting.

"Wishful hope of outlasting doesnt work, you can ask Gaddafi and others.If Syria does outlast, it would be a Pyrrhic victory anyway,"

There is nothing Pyrrhic about saving Syria's sovereignty and preventing al Qaeda from taking over the country, including Damascus - even if much of the country is destroyed (which, btw, I don't think it is, much has been saved in the fight... I would say even much gained in some sense).

You seem to be saying that if Assad knew this was coming early on in the "uprising" then he should have launched some covert actions against his enemies in the region - but what could he have done to prevent the war on his country? What could Gadhaffi have done?

To second guess the actions of the people who actually will end up murdered in a ditch I think is... I mean, these men will certainly do whatever to takes to prevent that outcome. But somethings, of course, cannot be prevented. Especially for small countries surrounded by powerful mafia states.

I'm all for any act that would take the aggressors down a peg, but not for anything that would derail the current road.

Lastly, presuming these actions are so covert no one will ever be able to spot them, then who is to say they aren't already happening?

Posted by: guest77 | Nov 24, 2013 11:03:17 AM | 88

Assad and Gadaffi both provided jails for the US's 'detainees'. It's a fair bet they both knew more about 9/11 than either has told or will ever tell. No one in professional politics ever challenges the US about 9/11. Least of all the 'leaders' of 'pipsqueak countries' slated for demolition.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Nov 24, 2013 11:57:49 AM | 89

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