September 18, 2013
Syria: NYT, HRW Wrong To Claim Chemical Attack Origin
Human Rights Watch and the New York Times are trying
to implicate the Syrian Arab Army in a chemical incident that happened on August 21 in Ghouta near Damascus. Using the report of an United Nations commission which investigated various sites around Damascus they try to reconstruct from where the rockets suspected to have been used in the attack may have been fired from.
The UN commission identified two finds of largely intact rockets that landed in a way that lets one estimate from which directions these rockets have been fired. Lining out from the impact sites towards the direction from where the rockets came the crossing of the two lines point, say HRW and the NYT, to the possible launch point of both rockets. That point, a Syrian army artillery site, is then seen as implicated in the chemical attack.
When taken together, the azimuths drawn from different neighborhoods lead back to and intersect at Mount Qasioun — so far an impregnable seat of Mr. Assad’s power — according to independent and separate calculations by both The New York Times and Human Rights Watch.
“Connecting the dots provided by these numbers allows us to see for ourselves where the rockets were likely launched from and who was responsible,” Josh Lyons, a satellite imagery analyst for Human Rights Watch, noted in a statement on Tuesday.
“This isn’t conclusive,” Mr. Lyons added. “But it is highly suggestive.”
But that analysis is faulty. At least one of the two rockets the UN commission assessed contained no chemical agent at all. In the whole area where that one rocket was found none of the environmental probe showed any sign of a chemical weapon impact. It is therefore not legit to use that impact as a direction finding point for the launch point of the chemical weapon incident. Before and after the chemical incident the sites the UN visited had been reported to be under conventional artillery attack. There is no conclusive evidence that binds the rocket debris found to the chemical incident.
Specifically the first site the UN commission visited was near Moadamiyah, south of Damascus. The investigators took blood and urine samples from some people they met on their visit there. Those samples proved positive for exposure to Sarin. But all environment samples taken in Moadamiyah proved negative (Appendix 6 and 7 of the UN report. Sample 1 to 12 taken on August 26.) If those person found in Moadamiyah would have been exposed in Moadamiyah the environment there would also have been exposed. But the UN team found that this was not the case. The persons must have been moved to Moadamiyah after having been exposed elsewhere. The 140 mm rocket the UN team assessed in Moadamiyah can thereby not be implicated in the chemical attack.
The second point where the UN team found ammunition and assessed the direction where it came from was in Ain Tarma east/south-east of Damascus. The ammunition debris found there was from a 330 mm rocket. Environmental probes taken in Ain Tarma and from parts of the found rocket debris showed exposure to Sarin. The UN commission report does not explicitly state that the ammunition found carried the chemical agent. It notes that the area was well traveled and that people were seen moving ammunition debris around.
The UN commission report does not say how the chemical agent found in some of the investigated areas was distributed. It does not say that it came from rockets. It identified two impact sites of rockets and directions that allows to assume the direction, not the distance, from where those rockets were fired from. But one of those sites and rockets was never exposed to the chemical agent in question while the other site, and the ammunition debris found there, was. To conclude from these finds that ammunition carrying chemical agents were fired from a specific point or army unit or was fired by rockets at all is not legit but propaganda.
In 2008 Human Rights Watch falsely accused Russia of having used cluster ammunition in the Georgia war even while the ammunition found was easily identifiable as "western" sourced ammunition. C.J Chivers, who wrote the above for the New York Times, has been implicated in propaganda reporting on Syria claiming "poorly armed rebels" while he knew and had seen that those "rebels" had received many modern arms and ammunition from their "western" and Gulf sponsors.
Posted by b on September 18, 2013 at 12:16 PM | Permalink
Hmm… the original reports, around 21 August, quite clearly state that the missiles/projectiles, were fired from the car park of a Syrian Army base occupied by the 'rebels'. I'm trying to find the source, but as usual, I have to dig through over 100 articles!
Posted by: William Bowles | Sep 18, 2013 12:50:32 PM | 1
Russia says U.N. report on Syria attack preconceived, political
" MOSCOW | Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:03am EDT
(Reuters) - Russia denounced U.N. investigators' findings on a poison gas attack in Syria as preconceived and tainted by politics on Wednesday, stepping up its criticism of a report Western nations said proved President Bashar al-Assad's forces were responsible.
Russia, which has veto power in the Security Council, could cite such doubts about proof of culpability in opposing future efforts by the United States, Britain and France to punish Syria for any violations of a deal to abandon chemical weapons.
Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov told the state-run Russian news agency RIA in Damascus:
"We are disappointed, to put it mildly, about the approach taken by the U.N. secretariat and the U.N. inspectors, who prepared the report selectively and incompletely,"
Ryabkov, who met Syrian Foreign Minister Walid al-Moualem late on Tuesday and Assad on Wednesday, said
"Without receiving a full picture of what is happening here, it is impossible to call the nature of the conclusions reached by the U.N. experts ... anything but politicized, preconceived and one-sided,"
Posted by: hmm | Sep 18, 2013 12:57:02 PM | 2
The criminals mouthpieces(MSM) are just doubling down on deceit,as they know their house of cards,their fortunes dependent on the US and European citizens lack of truth,is about to collapse.
Don't ever bet against evil people being more evil,like Walter White's plunge into more madness and depravity.
Posted by: dahoit | Sep 18, 2013 1:18:21 PM | 3
Below is an excerpt from a FAIR report.
If b is correct, and I have no doubt that he is, then this report (and the many like it which have seized on the "trajectory" factoids to return to the comfort to be found in bed with the State Department, Israel and the propaganda organs known as the mainstream media) is discredited. As will be the author so long as it stands in its present form:
"Over to you Jim. Say it ain't so."
"UN Report Provides Information, Not 'Intelligence'
by Jim Naureckas
"The United Nations mission to investigate allegations of chemical weapons use in Syria has released its report on the mass deaths in Ghouta on August 21, and it presents compelling evidence that the killings resulted from a deliberate attack with the nerve gas sarin. While the report explicitly declines to attribute responsibility for what it describes as a war crime, the details it provides of the quality of the sarin, the munitions used to deliver it and the trajectory of the projectiles used point to the Syrian regime as the likely perpetrator...
Posted by: bevin | Sep 18, 2013 1:26:23 PM | 4
B, this feels a bit like yesterday's news - people's interest has waned, which itself is a devastating blow to the intervention effort.
Wait, though, until the Syrian Government presents information regarding its stockpile of chemical weapons in the coming days. Expect then to hear 'experts' and 'analysts' suggesting that the information is incomplete, or that owing to the proximity of the location of weapon A to the location of chemical attack B, it can be inferred "beyond doubt" that the "Assad regime" was responsible - anything to restart the march on Damascus.
But it's the same individuals and organisations. You can't expect to see those who have been gunning for war since 2011 to turn it off like a tap. HRW, NYT and their ilk have spearheaded this intervention campaign.
They'll continue to try and find avenues and angles on which to base their justification for war.
Interest will again subside after the release of the report, until the November deadline for the entry of inspectors, before consistent pot shots at the progress of disarmament - undermining it where they can in sustained attempts to force the hand of Obama.
Ultimately though, who cares what they think? The litmus test was when the vote was headed for Congress and serious doubt emerged that it wouldn't pass. Obama faced humiliation. If the immediate and relentless propaganda didn’t stoke the fires in the bellies of the American public then, nothing will now.
And so let them huff and puff their guts out. The Syrian army will continue to do its job.
Posted by: Pat Bateman | Sep 18, 2013 1:33:08 PM | 5
*Good analysis nonetheless
Posted by: Pat Bateman | Sep 18, 2013 1:38:58 PM | 6
These people are murderous war criminals. Period.
Here's Mr. Chivers' - former Marine, Army Ranger, Gulf War veteran, NYT/CIA Russian correspondent on Chechnya and Beslan (I'm sure there are some doozies in those bits of reporting, huh?) - blog The Gun where - at the link - Mr. Chivers goes on and on about - as b said - how the Syrians were getting supplied arms directly from Libya with photos. One of the posts about these arms shipments is from June 22, 20123 just 11 DAYS after he filed his poor, unarmed Syrian rebel story with the NYT. Wow, (pushes button) that was easy!!!
I guess I shouldn't be skeptical of the war reporting done by a CAREER MILITARY man who then worked for the NYT/CIA, huh? Nah.
HRW is contemptible murderous trash dressed up to whip bourgeois "progressives" into a R2P bloodlust.
Posted by: JSorrentine | Sep 18, 2013 1:45:43 PM | 8
Looks like the "rebels" have a bit of fun killing each other.
Some tweets from the last hour. Top is newest:
Ivan Watson @IvanCNN
Syrians coming to Turkey from Azaz say Al Qaeda/ISIS fighters on verge of capturing main entry gate for internat'l aid from Turkey to Syria
Charles Lister @Charles_Lister
Things in Azaaz still escalating; word from local sources is ISIS now has upper hand but local FSA reinforcements joining w Asifat.
Jenan Moussa @jenanmoussa
Eye witness in Azaz tells me: 'groups are shooting at each other in middle of the town with anti aircraft guns. Crazy.'
ISIS is trying to carry out a Black Terror (like the communist's Red Terror). It's rounding up "liberals".
Jenan Moussa @jenanmoussa
Fighting in Azaz btwn FSA and ISIS is extremely significant. Azaz is on border with #Turkey. It is the gate to #Aleppo. Crucial border town.
Ian Pannell @BBCiPannell
Serious clashes between #FSA & jihadi #ISIS in key #Syria border town #Azaz. Is this the long-expected rebel schism? Bad month 4 opposition
Ivan Watson @IvanCNN
Turkish border guards closed entry to Syria via BabElSalama border gate. ambulances streaming out from battle in Azaz between ISIS/FSA.
Posted by: b | Sep 18, 2013 2:02:31 PM | 9
Mr. Chivers also breathlessly covered the story of the killed reporters in Libya who were of course killed by evil, evil Qaddafy when they were innocently - sniff - just trying to get some good copy while being embedded with the noble
jihadist mercenaries "activist youth" of Libya's foray into the Western/Zionist backed overthrow of a sovereign government "Arab Spring".
Here's Mr. Chiver's on what he says was the most visited post in his blog's history talking about how - you guessed it - Human Rights Watch - helped them to get the bodies of our deceased heroes out of Libya. Here's his paean to his fallen comrade, martyr's in the Zionist West's global campaign of war crimes and murder:
These are the organizations and the people — HRW, IOM, Andre — who make it possible to imagine, on days like these, that we are people still, just as Chris and Tim did in the work that defined their lives.
You're right, Mr. Chivers, Qaddafy DID deserve to be knife-sodomized by the mercenary jihadists the US hired to destroy his country.
One thrust - sniffle - for Tim. Another thrust for Chris. sob
Posted by: JSorrentine | Sep 18, 2013 2:02:51 PM | 10
b. You are right that the UN report does not prove anything, but they do find "Degradation and/or ByProducts" in soil sample number 1 from 26/August in both laboratories, and "Degradation and/or ByProducts" on rocket parts from 26/August in one laboratory.
The summary of the report is clear that they consider the rockets to have transported the chemicals, though the report itself is full of caveats on the sites having been manipulated.
Posted by: somebody | Sep 18, 2013 2:19:05 PM | 11
Jenan Moussa @jenanmoussa 44m
Syrian Border town of Azaz in now under control of AlQaeda linked ISIS. Major major development. @Akhbar #Syria
Posted by: annie | Sep 18, 2013 2:24:17 PM | 12
thanks for the article and the update.. isn't human rights watch just a front for the cia? sure looks that way..
Posted by: james | Sep 18, 2013 2:29:24 PM | 13
Don't tell me you just blew up Brown Moses' work of several week in a post like this one ?
Very well done !
Posted by: Rhysa | Sep 18, 2013 2:56:34 PM | 14
@somebody @11 - not true - see the tables in appendix 6 and 7 of probes 1 to 13. A few "degradation and by-products" in some four probes out of thirteen could be anything. None of the probes has a CW agent while the probes taken later at a different place finds CW agents. Byproducts of organophosphate degradations are the same as from some fertilizer or some solid rocket fuels. They do NOT point to CW agents.
Why is there no CW agent found at all in Moadamiyah when three days later they find it all over the other places?
Posted by: b | Sep 18, 2013 3:06:44 PM | 15
What happened with the 2 missiles against Syria, from 10 days ago?. They were israeli missils or what?
Some news from Libano "As Safir" tell another history. They tell the missils were USA from Rota naval base in the south of Spain!.
Posted by: anonymous | Sep 18, 2013 3:09:51 PM | 16
Today's MofA post is an essential one. The West is winning the propaganda war based on the NYT and HRW interpretation of the azimuth data taken from impact craters. The Russian and Syrian response has been to attack the thoroughness of the UN investigation and say that there is evidence of rebel CW use. This is good, but I was waiting for someone to take on the trajectory argument directly because it is being used as the new "smoking gun" to justify Chapter VII sanctions in the Security Council.
I don't think the warmongers will succeed because Russia will not allow Chapter VII and the U.S., about to go through another government shutdown scare, can't engage in additional saber rattling. Remember, a super-majority of Americans were opposed to military intervention in Syria even though 70% believe that the Syrian government was responsible for the August 21 gassing. The warmongers remain caught between a rock (a Russian Security Council veto) and a hard place (American public opinion).
Posted by: Mike Maloney | Sep 18, 2013 3:12:57 PM | 17
@ 9 b, do you think Turkey is actively favoring Al Qaeda linked groups over 'FSA'?
Or do they fear some groups are about to rejoin the government just as the Aleppo offensive starts? They may worry about fighting SAA and 'FSA' at the same time.
Posted by: Lysander | Sep 18, 2013 3:16:36 PM | 18
b@9 If they are rounding up "liberals" they can't be all bad. There are millions of Obot "liberals" over here I would gladly send them.
Posted by: par4 | Sep 18, 2013 3:19:29 PM | 19
"By products of organophosphate degradations are the same as from some fertilizer or some solid rocket fuels. They do NOT point to CW agents."
Of course he knew this info already, before he commented above @11
MoonofAlabama published a BlogPost on that exact issue on Sept 2.
And we already know he read it because he commented at least 4 or 5 times in the posts comment thread.
Posted by: hmm | Sep 18, 2013 3:24:43 PM | 20
the fact that none of the other environmental samples taken at that site on 26th aug, tested positive for Sarin or compounds associated with it's breakdown, would have told anyone that those soil sample tests were inconclusive when it comes to confirming the presence Sarin
Of course he knew that too, before he posted @ 11
Posted by: hmm | Sep 18, 2013 3:28:32 PM | 21
Russian Ambassador to the UN Vitaly Churkin demands ‘immediate return’ of UN inspectors to Syria
Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:11AM
Damascus and Moscow, however, have described the chemical attack as an act of provocation by foreign-backed opposition militants in Syria in a bid to prompt a US-led military action against the Arab country."
Russia’s permanent UN representative has called for the “immediate return” of the world body’s inspectors to Syria to conduct additional investigations into last month’s use of chemical weapons in the country.
Ambassador Vitaly Churkin said the UN inspection mission should also investigate “the incident on March 19 near Aleppo as well as incidents of intoxication of Syrian government troops on August 22 and 24-25.”
“We hope that the full implementation of the mandate of by [Swedish professor Ake] Sellstrom’s mission will give an objective picture of the events in Syria,” Churkin added.
The development comes as UN inspectors reported on Monday that they had found “clear and convincing evidence” that chemical weapons, including the nerve agent sarin, were used in an August 21 attack that killed hundreds of people in the Damascus suburb of Ghouta.
The UN inspectors, meanwhile, had no mandate to determine who had perpetrated the chemical attack, although the US and some of its Western allies continue to insist that the government of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad was behind the incident.
Damascus and Moscow, however, have described the chemical attack as an act of provocation by foreign-backed opposition militants in Syria in a bid to prompt a US-led military action against the Arab country.
Posted by: hmm | Sep 18, 2013 3:34:29 PM | 22
Gee, this sure is weird!
One day after the Israeli ambassador claims that the apartheid state of Israel has their OWN redline as was detailed in b's earlier posts:
“The chemical weapons were an American red line, it wasn’t an Israel red line,” Oren said. “Our red line was that if Iran and Syria try to convey chemical weapons or game changing weaponry to Hezbollah or other terrorist organizations, that Israel would not remain passive. We were prepared to stand by the red line, and still are.”
Oren, who said he could not verify reports Assad was already moving his arsenal, stressed that “he is not moving them out to Hezbollah.”
Today, we get this news item from the FSA that - hey, you peeked - ASSAD IS MOVING CWs TO HEZBOLLAH!!!
Free Syrian Army Claims Assad Smuggled Chemical Weapons Out To Lebanon
Posted by: JSorrentine | Sep 18, 2013 3:42:18 PM | 23
From last night's NightWatch
Syria: Special note. The UN inspectors judged that one of the two rockets they examined was an M14 140mm rocket, which is fired from a BM-14 multiple rocket launcher. NightWatch checked the web today to try to determine whether the Syrian Arab Army still fields or keeps in inventory or storage BM-14s. The BM-14 is a an old system, a variation of the Soviet World War II BM-13 towed or truck-mounted, 16-round Katyusha multiple rocket launcher.
One reason for the search is that this weapon system is more than 70 years old and was replaced in most Soviet-equipped armies decades ago. Usually it was replaced by the BM-21 122-mm multiple rocket launcher. Syria can make these rockets.
A second reason for the search is that the BM-14 is an area saturation weapon. An army rocket unit usually would not fire it singly or in small numbers for a tactical mission. Each salvo should launch at least 16 rockets.
Global Security posts to the web detailed inventories of military equipment fielded by most national armies, including that of the Syrian army. Its charts show the Syrian army fields large numbers of BM-21s, but no BM-14s. They also show no rocket launcher that fires a rocket with a diameter of 330-mm. The UN inspectors found parts of such a rocket, but could not match it to any systems they knew. Our search found that Iran's Fajr-5 333-mm rocket is the closest in diameter, but it is 18 feet long.
Global Security's information might be incomplete and the numbers are estimates. However, the site has proven to be a reliable source of detailed military information. Its list of the types of major items of equipment that the Syrian army fields is reliable. The list does not include the BM-14.
The question for Feedback is where did the M-14 rocket come from? Who is still using this system in Syria? Does Syria still have stocks of long outdated rockets? Did the opposition capture any?
Posted by: [Name Redacted] | Sep 18, 2013 3:53:17 PM | 24
All been covered here extensively but this article attacks WaPo specifically:
5 Lies Invented to Spin UN Report on Syrian Chemical Weapons Attack
Lie 1. Chemical weapons were delivered with munitions not used by rebels
Lie 2. The sarin was fired from a regime-controlled area
Lie 3. Chemical analysis suggests sarin likely came from controlled supply
Lie 4. Cyrillic characters on the sides of the shells
Lie 5. The UN Secretary General's comments on the report
Posted by: JSorrentine | Sep 18, 2013 3:57:51 PM | 25
b: There was an interesting interview yesterday, I think on the BBC, with an analyst who pointed out the absence of evidence of a stabilizer among the chemicals collected by the UN team. He suggested that the presence of a stabilizer would be a stronger indicator that the CW had come from a government's stored supplies. I don't recall whether you've covered this angle.
Posted by: Rusty Pipes | Sep 18, 2013 5:23:57 PM | 27
'far an impregnable seat of Mr. Assad’s power '
the get more and more woeful: 'mr Assads power'? His 'power' lies in the people of syria
Posted by: brian | Sep 18, 2013 5:35:19 PM | 28
Posted by: JSorrentine | Sep 18, 2013 1:45:43 PM | 8
the chechen thugs are follwwing chivers around!
Posted by: brian | Sep 18, 2013 5:42:56 PM | 29
for the curious Ken Roth(head of HRW ) tweets here
since hes jewish his being anti-Assad is a matter of tribal interest
Posted by: brian | Sep 18, 2013 5:47:52 PM | 30
Free Syrian Army Claims Assad Smuggled Chemical Weapons Out To Lebanon
Posted by: JSorrentine | Sep 18, 2013 3:42:18 PM | 23
thats as transparent as it gets: FSA is alligned with israels IOF
Posted by: brian | Sep 18, 2013 5:48:52 PM | 31
It would be interesting to get more analysis of HRW's background and biases. The wiki article just drops a few interesting tidbits. Its origins were in the 70's as Helsinki Watch (back when Israel's efforts were just gearing up to pressure the Soviets to send more white Jews to Israel). Since it has evolved into an organization that covers more countries around the world, it has been criticized by some for having an agenda that is too close to the US State Department's policies or the agendas of its wealthy donors. Not surprisingly, groups like CAMERA bash it for issuing any mild criticism of Israel at all. Even so, it appears to shine its spotlight disproportionately on countries that resist US or Israel hegemony. The Angry Arab has been especially caustic about HRW's Beirut office's press releases toeing the Saudi line.
Posted by: Rusty Pipes | Sep 18, 2013 6:35:24 PM | 32
15) b. sure, you can argue that, then you go against what the UN inspectors summarized themselves. They explicitely stated to have established that the rockets (plural) carried Sarin with the caveat that the scene had clearly been compromised/manipulated.
In particular, the environmental, chemical and medical samples we have collected provide clear and convincing evidence that surface-to-surface rockets carrying the nerve Sarin were used in Ein Tarma, Moadamyah and Zamalka in the Ghouta area of Damascus
I would not blame HRW for taking that as basis, but to construct proof that clearly is not there from that basis, is, I agree, partisan politics. As I understand physics, even when you can reconstruct the direction a rocket came from, you need more information than given in the UN report to reconstruct the length of the flight. The rockets used were obsolete Soviet type/homemade.
There is plenty of time now for Russia to insist that the inspectors go back on the cases of rebel use of Sarin t
Posted by: somebody | Sep 18, 2013 7:05:07 PM | 33
back in 2012 i got this email from Leonor a spanish psycologist who has been tp libya and has contacts there:
Libia is living a horrible emergency as international armed groups with islamist are throughing poison gass over civil houses in Beni Walit. They have stoped foot and medicines to them from a week ago, they have surrounded and bomb. As they can not go inside the city from yesterday they are throughing poison gas.
Libia ask please urgent help!!!!!
They have doctors, videos and all kind of information ready to give it by skipe if you know any media.
which i passed on to Don De bar...as you see Leonor mentions use of poison gas by US allies the LIFG
Posted by: brian | Sep 18, 2013 7:41:19 PM | 34
Here's a blistering critique of Sellstrom and the UN report... The Sellstrom Report: The United Nations’ Syria Inspector Shills for NATO and Israel
Money Quotes... "The term “relatively large scale” chemical-weapons attack used in the introduction to the UN report on Syria is hyperbole, since any major attack with sarin would have resulted in tens of thousands of fatalities, especially if dispersed by military rockets. The first videos from Ghouta showed residents pouring out of their homes onto the street, gasping for fresh air. If indeed highly efficient rockets had been used, every one of them would have been killed instantaneous. The gassing, therefore, must have been an accidental release indoors, probably from a hidden rebel arsenal."
"Chemical residues from the alleged rockets would have been oxidized by the heat of impact and certainly no intact organophosphate traces would be detectable, since sarin is designed to decompose after 20 minutes. Rockets are designed to use a binary system by which two chemical precursors are mixed during mid-air dispersal. Thus, there is no need for stabilizers or dispersants, meaning an absence of any identifying chemicals. The UN inspectors arrived long after the expiration period for sample testing. There is a possiblity also that the site and rocket parts may have been tampered with falsified evidence by the rebels and their foreign military advisers."
Posted by: CTuttle | Sep 18, 2013 8:20:41 PM | 36
@10 Fantastic comment.
CJ Chivers is a mercenary pretending to be a reporter.
Posted by: guest77 | Sep 18, 2013 8:26:48 PM | 37
36) When you google for Ake Sellstrom the story is different from what your link claims:
Iraq arms experts probably spied - Swede Inspector
Some United Nations inspectors looking for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq in the 1990s spied on behalf of their governments, a Swede who worked as an inspector said on Thursday.
“There were episodes you could sense were strange. One team member made too many copies of documents. Then there were those who went to their embassies at night although they were not really allowed to do so," Ake Sellstrom told Swedish public service SVT television news.
Sellstrom was employed by the UN weapons inspection organization UNSCOM led by American Scott Ritter, whom Baghdad repeatedly accused of spying.
Sellstrom said information obtained by means of electronic surveillance of Iraqi security forces' communications had clearly fallen into wrong hands -- such as the US and Israeli military -- during his time with UNSCOM.
Some targets checked out by the weapons inspectors were bombed by the
United States and its allies just a week later, Sellstrom said.
Jean Pascal Zanders, head of chemical and biological warfare studies at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), told a news conference earlier on Thursday that new Iraqi weapons inspections would be extremely “If they don't come up with something in one or two months, then the United States will say 'This shows that inspections don't work' while Iraq will say 'You see, we don't have any weapons.”
I would not trust globalresearch.ca - there is a reason the credibility of UN inspectors gets undermined - remember the US tried to prevent the inspection in Syria.
The UN report itself is perfectly ok - Ban Ki Moon tried to hype it up but that is not in the actual report and Human Rights blamed the Syrian Regime though
HRW cautioned that the data was not “conclusive”, but described it as “highly suggestive and another piece of the puzzle”.
not conclusive = no proof
highly suggestive = making you think of or remember a particular thing equals manipulative
Sometimes I feel language has lost its meaning.
Posted by: somebody | Sep 18, 2013 8:50:28 PM | 38
Hypocrisy almost literally oozing from every word. That's pretty
astounding, even for you
I'm pretty sure the people @ globalresearch wouldn't trust you either, if they knew of your existance. One thing i DO know about them is that i have never seen them deliberately lie or deliberately try to mislead. YOU, on the other hand . . . .
"Sometimes I feel language has lost its meaning." - well, yes . . . Especially the way you use it.
"Highly suggestive = making you think of or remember a particular thing equals manipulative" - sounds like some sort of confession
Posted by: hmm | Sep 18, 2013 9:08:20 PM | 39
Didn't see a link to this:
Mother Agnes interview on RT.
Children filmed as victims of the Aug 21 chemical attack in a Damascus suburb had been deliberately moved to the location from a different region after being kidnapped weeks before, Mother Agnes told RT after presenting her own investigation to the UN.
Mother Agnes Mariam el-Salib and her group carried out their own investigation. They looked through the 35 videos of the incident that were posted on the internet.
What caught Mother Agnes’ eye was that the same children resurfaced in different videos.
“We see children in a video presented as victims of a chemical attack in Jobar. And then we see the same kids in a video out of Kfar-Batna, and they are claimed to be kids from Kfar-Batna, and then, from Ain Terma. We have seen one and the same boy ostensibly in agony in different settings,” she told RT Arabic.
“Who are those children? We want to know the truth,” Mother Agnes says.
First of all, there are family members who say they have recognized their children. They pointed to specific videos from Kfar Batna and Jobar. I cannot go into detail, because I don't have permission from the families to mention names. So I'll put it in general terms: as of now, we know that people have recognized some of the children. In some cases, it was a mother or a father who recognized their child in a video. In other cases, it was an aunt or an uncle, or some other relative, because some of the parents had been killed during the fighting, as the insurgents advanced through the townships and villages of Latakia. I cannot judge whether what those people say is true; that would require a DNA test. As far as we are concerned, we are trying to figure out why all those people would start claiming they see familiar faces in those videos. We look specifically at the footage selected by the Americans, and we see that it has been supplemented with footage provided by Al Jazeera, or by one of the coordination committees. We have 35 videos in our brief, but there are about 200 to 230 videos in total, each different from the others. They are peddled by a variety of sources - from local coordination committees to NGOs to media organizations. As we examined the videos, trying to identify the children in question, we noticed signs suggesting this or that had been staged and directed. For example, there is footage of a boy receiving first aid. And then there is a different video where you can see the same boy receiving first aid all over again, but in a different setting. It is like a movie production, where scenes are repeatedly edited and re-filmed. You shoot one scene, you don't like it, so you alter the settings and you try again.
Posted by: JSorrentine | Sep 18, 2013 9:10:47 PM | 40
@39 Mahalo, hmm, I knew you'd take care of a certain somebody...!
Now, I wonder how he'll impugn Mother Agnes...! ;-)
Posted by: CTuttle | Sep 18, 2013 9:30:28 PM | 41
He'll probably claim that she's actually Hassan Nasrallah in drag, and wants to "Gas all the Juice!" with Chem Weapons she got "from Assad!" and smuggled into southern Lebanon, under her Nun's Habit.
Posted by: hmm | Sep 18, 2013 9:37:33 PM | 42
Oh, don't worry I'm sure there will be a cute nickname - e.g., "truthers" - for the growing number of people such as Mother Agnes who are starting to see that this whole story - a la 9/11 - is chock full of bullshit nonsense from end to end. Just give the marketing people some time.
Anti-chemites? (my favorite)
Posted by: JSorrentine | Sep 18, 2013 9:53:43 PM | 43
Interesting link. At minimum, it helped clarify whether the presence or absence of stabilizers is a real issue or red herring.
Posted by: Rusty Pipes | Sep 18, 2013 9:54:30 PM | 44
Sarin deniers !!!!
Posted by: hmm | Sep 18, 2013 10:15:59 PM | 45
It is very simple.
1) Russia says they want further UN investigations, Syria says they want further UN investigations. So they either trust them or - if you do not want to believe that - at least find them useful.
The US and Israel do not like the UN but have preferred - up to now - to act unilaterally. Israel hates the UN because it is in conflict with a lot of UN resolutions. The UN waged the Iraq war without and against the UN that had not found weapons of mass destruction.
So when you argue against the UN you take the US/Israel side of the issue.
2) Truthers - it is well known that the main role of truthers is to ridicule very legimite questions on 9/11 - like publish all of the commission's findings - no one wants to be associated with them. It is a secret service technique, simple. Infiltrate crazies into a group to give everybody a bad name by association.
So yes, when you argue a case and ignore all likelihood and basic facts, you do not help your argument and that may be intended.
Professor Ake Sellstrom is quite the opposite of what CTuttle's link claims. So who has an interest to smear him?
Posted by: somebody | Sep 19, 2013 1:45:56 AM | 46
46) repeat: Professor Ake Sellstrom found no evidence that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and he and Hans Blix said so at the time. It was the US and the "coalition of the willing" who went to war despite of that.
Posted by: somebody | Sep 19, 2013 2:07:56 AM | 47
I start to regret the 19th c., when gentlemen could agree on a secret meeting at dawn the next day, and solve their problems without annoying everybody. Isn't it bizarre that every thread gets hijacked by the same two people? 5 posts a day keep the doctor away, my friend...
It was the talk of the day on German news yesterday. Some would not like to see all the details emerge!
And Rohani is ready to meet O' and sign the non proliferation treaty, that is, if the jackasses let them
Posted by: Mina | Sep 19, 2013 4:11:24 AM | 48
William Bowles no 1
I was the one Whois poited out the launching site. At the HQ in Qaboun. It is ontuen research wiki A Closer Look on Syria. Pepe Escobas quoted it on his RT blog.
The info was Fiat on the main talk page. But now moved to subpage rocket attacks.
I am writing this From Moscow AirPort, So sorry, no links.
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Sep 19, 2013 4:36:10 AM | 50
Daily Kos from January 2013
Syria - FSA Representative States FSA Has Chemical Weapons Capabilities
According to reports in the Turkish media, the Turkish-government-run Anadolu Agency (AA) has reported in its Arabic language service that in an interview it conducted with Bassam al-Dada*, a political analyst for the opposition Free Syrian Army (FSA), Mr. al-Dada stated that the FSA has the capability to produce and use chemical weapons.
Mr. al-Dada is reported to have said that if Syrian President Bashar al-Assad threatens the FSA with chemical weapons he needs to know that the FSA also has these weapons.
Mr. al-Dada is also reported to have said that the FSA had the materials necessary to produce chemical weapons, that the FSA acquired the expertise to produce chemical weapons from officers who had defected from the Syrian military, that if Syrian government forces didn't use chemical weapons the FSA would not use them, and that if the FSA used chemical weapons they would use them against government bases and centers.
When asked about possible international public opinion backlash if the FSA were to use chemical weapons, Mr. al-Dada is reported to have responded "If Bashar uses these weapons against us, will international public opinion protect us?".
Posted by: somebody | Sep 19, 2013 5:30:15 AM | 52
If these Brown Moses videos are obvious fakes, that doesn’t mean the government necessarily made them, to implicate the rebels. It could equally mean the reverse, that the rebels made them, intending them to be exposed as fake, to implicate the government. Don’t forget the rebels have NATO & CIA psyops people working with them.
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Sep 19, 2013 5:31:38 AM | 53
Uh..why is Dennis Kucinich interviewing for Foxnews?
While I havent watched the whole interview yet, kudos to Dennis anyway, look him up, hes sorta like a Ron Paul for those of you who dont know him and he have earlier spoken with Assad privately.
Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 19, 2013 6:02:04 AM | 54
@46 & 47
Just because you like to take a hypocritical high-moral-ground stance occasionally, don't think you are fooling anyone.
You'll still rapidly revert to the two-faced lying trogledyte you really are as, soon as you smell some advantage from doing so. You're a proven liar, you seem to feel the need to lie at least once every 2nd comment.
Despite your current temporary moralistic persona, most here know it is only pretence, as it is obvious that you have few if any scruples when it comes to telling great big whopping lies, and itwon't be long before you revert to your true persona of blatant liar.
Posted by: hmm | Sep 19, 2013 6:48:45 AM | 55
"What makes it possible to imagine we are people still"
I have no doubt that Mr. Chivers needs that kind of confirmation on a daily basis for all of the inhumanity he is a part of. The hypocrisy of the statement is surpassed only by its blind self adulation.
Posted by: guest77 | Sep 19, 2013 7:52:13 AM | 57
Dennis Kucinich was one of the first to travel to Syria in 2011. He has been right from day one as opposed to even Chomsky who has failed to make the case against the so-called rebels.
I am too surprised, bevin, to see FAIR backtrack like that after being among the first to roundly tear down the administrations case for war. There is some part of the left that cant give up on their romantic notions of the foreign invaders. My guess is that there was pressure to be more 'balanced' after the excellent first take on the issue.
Posted by: guest77 | Sep 19, 2013 7:58:00 AM | 58
Is there any coordinates where the ACTUAL rockets in Ghouta landed?
Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 19, 2013 8:10:32 AM | 59
Petri Krohn is probably the best informed around here on that issue
you should probably ask him
Posted by: hmm | Sep 19, 2013 8:37:29 AM | 60
While it has been covered here a while back, a reminder on HRW & some of the major players in its direction.
HRW was originally the Helsinki foundation, which in turn was founded by the Ford Foundation, linked to being a channel for a number of CIA organised campaigns. In this case they seemed to want to influence the direction of the anti-nuclear movement and keep the direction of it focused on the Soviets as much as possible & away from US stockpiles/testing.
Its successor HRW seemed to be an attempt to take over the role of the International Red Cross by a US organised & run group that could be influenced in the direction of US policy goals.
In both cases the bulk of the organisation are local activists, mostly young white middle-class 'liberals' who want to 'do something to make the world a better place', & are extremely naive. There is also a fair collection of people from third-world countries that are 'products' of some western run think-tank/NGO education program.
The upper management tend to be products of the great think-tank/professional NGO industry, or with direct government/DoD experience:
"Prominent HRW members include Morton Abramowitz, a former undersecretary of state, Warren Zimmerman and Paul Goble, director of Radio Free Europe." Current director is Kenneth Roth, a former US federal prosecutor who is paid $345k/yr, & a recent participant in the World Economic Forum in Davos, who runs it with the assistance of an array of senior former US officials & thinktank/NGO/business alumni.
Financing is private & confidential but George Soros is known to be a heavy backer, 'donating' atleast $100 million as well as "Soros appointed his tax lawyer to the HRW Board in 2004 as well as his legal advisor William D. Zabel".
Suzanne Nossel is perhaps the critical figure in the rise of HRW. After her tenure as Chief Operating Officer they became much more active on the political scene supporting US interventions. Nossel is the author of the 'Smart Power' doctrine, former assistant to Richard Holbrooke & Hillary Clinton, as well as "Vice President of Strategy and Operations for the Wall Street Journal, vice-president of U.S. Business Development for Bertelsmann, served as a senior fellow at the Century Foundation, the Center for American Progress and the Council on Foreign Relations.
She is a strong proponent of the doctrine that "that the USA needs to use military force and diplomacy, in concert, in order to make American power stronger", & has long been pushing for US intervention in Iran along with numerous other countries in the Middle East/Africa. She is also a strong supporter of Israel, & believes that the role of human rights groups are to defend Israel and the settlers against complaints at the UN and other official venues. These are now obviously a major part of HRW current agenda.
These are a couple of essential articles on HRW & Suzanne Nossel:
What is the code of ethics that HRW practices?
Suzanne Nossel Executive Director of Amnesty International USA
Intense Anti-Assad Propaganda
Posted by: KenM | Sep 19, 2013 8:39:10 AM | 61
Just for you Mina
Kevin Barrett is currently claiming that your Military dictator friend, Al Sisi, had an uncle that was a member of something Barrett calls the Jewish Defense League (Hamagein)
from 1948 to 1950, made his aliyah to Israel, and became a bigwig in Ben Gurion’s political party, serving as the secretary of the Israeli Labor Party in Beersheba from 1968 to 1981. Uri’s sister – al-Sisi’s mother – presumably emigrated to Egypt on a mission from the Mossad. That mission culminated when the Mossad overthrew President Morsi and installed its agent al-Sisi in the coup d’état of July 3rd, 2013.
However a cursory search of the web for "Hamagein" turns up absolutely nothing, which would suggest that wherever Barrett got his info from, some parts at least are unreliable
But the Israeli ambassador did call Al-Sisi a "national hero for all Jews" which is a pretty strange thing to call him.
Posted by: hmm | Sep 19, 2013 8:58:32 AM | 62
good information, KenM.
It is a small world: the Ford Foundation also funded Obama's mother's years in Indonesia. The executive responsible being, former Treasury Secretary, Geithner's father.
Posted by: bevin | Sep 19, 2013 9:03:17 AM | 63
Some less than reputable individuals keep mentioning the claim made by Ake Sellstrom, Brown Moses" etc, regarding the "Soviet" origins of ONE the rockets allegedly used to deliver the alleged Sarin allegedly dispersed in the alleged Sarin attack in syria.
some people are acting as if the very "sovietness" of the weaponry alleged to have been used in these alleged attacks, somehow automatically indicts the Syrian Gov't, which is of course nothing more than the usual dishonest nonsense such people post here regularly.
SO I guess now might be a good time to mention something called the "Bear Spares" program, which I noticed a reference to recently on another website
13. The United States and the CIA maintained a program known as the 'Bear Spares" program whereby the United States made sure that spare parts and ammunition for Soviet or Soviet-style weaponry were available to countries which sought to reduce their dependence on the Soviets for defense needs. I
f the "Bear Spares" were manufactured outside the United States, then the United States could arrange for the provision of these weapons to a third country without direct involvement. Israel, for example, had a very large stockpile of Soviet weaponry and ammunition captured during its various wars.
At the suggestion of the United States, the Israelis would transfer the spare parts and weapons to third countries or insurgent movements (such as the Afghan rebels and the Contras).
Similarly, Egypt manufactured weapons and spare parts from Soviet designs and porvided these weapons and ammunition to the Iraqis and other countries. Egypt also served as a supplier for the Bear Spares program. The United States approved, assisted and encouraged Egypt's manufacturing capabilities. The United States approved, assisted and encouraged Egypt's sale of weaponry, munitions and vehicles to Iraq.
Source: Sworn court declaration of former NSC official Howard Teicher, dated 1/31/95
Posted by: hmm | Sep 19, 2013 9:16:55 AM | 64
Were Nerve Gas Rockets Based on an American Design, [later modified by Israel]?
One former inspector with the U.N.'s Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, says the the weapons in Syria could well be a knock off of the SLUFAE design, but with the warhead filled with chemical weapons instead of the pressurized explosive gas found in FAEs.
SLUFAE's "design would make it useful for chemical weapons delivery," said the ex-inspector in an email.
"This type of rocket, with a similar warhead design, has been seen before as a FAE weapon," he added, describing SLUFAE. "These were typically filled with a pressurized gas, I believe the U.S. used Ethylene trioxide."
This gas would be expelled from SULFAE's warhead when it was just above the target and then explode "a split second later," according to the ex-inspector. "This gas explosion did not normally burn anything, but the detonation caused significant overpressure. This was found to be very deadly for people and animals."
People and animals unlucky enough to be near a thermobaric explosion have their internal organs crushed by waves of air pressure instead of suffering shrapnel wounds or burns.
The U.S. abandoned the SLUFAE effort before it was ever fielded. However, in the decades since it was tested, several countries have built similar weapons loosely based on SLUFAE, according to the inspector.
In fact, "a very similar munition was found 3-5 years ago, during one of the Israeli excursions," into Southern Lebanon, said the former weapons inspector. That weapon turned out to be Israel's CARPET thermobaric mine-clearing weapon (see the PDF below.)
"While it is not the same munition, you can see the similarities," adds the ex inspector.
When asked by Killer Apps about the likelihood of an actual SLUFAE prototype from the 1970s falling into Assad's hands, he replied, "I'd say about zero."
Posted by: hmm | Sep 19, 2013 9:22:40 AM | 65
If anyone hasn't had their daily chuckle yet you might want to read John "F*ckhead" McCain's op-ed response to Putin which was published in Pravda. Wow.
Seriously, I laughed so hard I pissed in my American pants after perusing the below paragraphs and was advised by my physician to discontinue reading:
A Russian citizen could not publish a testament like the one I just offered. President Putin and his associates do not believe in these values. They don't respect your dignity or accept your authority over them. They punish dissent and imprison opponents. They rig your elections. They control your media. They harass, threaten, and banish organizations that defend your right to self-governance. To perpetuate their power they foster rampant corruption in your courts and your economy and terrorize and even assassinate journalists who try to expose their corruption.
They write laws to codify bigotry against people whose sexual orientation they condemn. They throw the members of a punk rock band in jail for the crime of being provocative and vulgar and for having the audacity to protest President Putin's rule.
Seriously, I warn you, relieve your bladder before attempting to read the rest of this piece. Doctor's orders.
Senator John McCain (R-USA!!USA!!): defender of gays, punk icon, vanguard of freedom, incontinent f*ckhead.
So, now that the Zionist warmongers have been stymied in their proxy war w/ Russia they've decided - eff it - let's drop the proxy and cut right to the chase.
Posted by: JSorrentine | Sep 19, 2013 10:02:38 AM | 68
You should learn to read a little better brian.
Others out there, that can read and comprehend, can plainly see that I pointed out that the oganisation, which Barrett alleges Al Sisi's Uncle belonged to, does not turn up in any websearch.
also equally strange is that, since Al Sisi took power in the Miltary coup de tat earlier this year, the Egyptian military has attacked Palestinians numerous times, firing on fishermen for example (a tactic they learned from the israelis obviously) When they carry out these crimes they are in effect acting as an ally of the Israelis.
Now you can pretend that it was not a Military coup de tat if you want to, but I have no intention of doing so.
And you can pretend that Al Sisi is not helping the Israelis subjugate the Palestinians, if you want to, but I have no intention of doing so.
Posted by: hmm | Sep 19, 2013 10:03:32 AM | 69
KenM @ 61: Tip of the cap for the HRW info, interesting.
Posted by: ben | Sep 19, 2013 10:11:00 AM | 70
It's rather ironic that you link to an obvious Zionist propaganda front in your defence of Mr Al Sisi.
Tthe author is a chap called Daniel Greenfield (no prizes for guessing his background) who is apparently
a Shillman Journalism Fellow at the Freedom Center, is a New York writer focusing on radical Islam. He is completing a book on the international challenges America faces in the 21st century.
"Shillman" - rather apt, no?
A quick look at the headlines on the right-hand side of that zionist propaganda rag you linked to tells it's own story
- Beaten for Being Gay in a Black Neighborhood
- The Islamist-Interfaith Coalition’s War on the NYPD
- Islamic Feminism: Muslim Husbands Must Hate Non-Muslim Wives
Well done brian.
reminds me of these guys
Posted by: hmm | Sep 19, 2013 10:13:57 AM | 71
Posted by: hmm | Sep 19, 2013 10:13:57 AM | 71
why am i not surprised u support the Muslim Brotherhood? who support the overthrown of Asasd by jihadis
Posted by: brian | Sep 19, 2013 10:23:23 AM | 73
well it looks like I was right about who Mr David Grunfeld works for
Frontpage mag, the Zionist Propaganda rag you linked to, brian, is a project of "The David Horowitz Freedom Centre".
Frontpage mysteriously left out the words "David Horowitz" when describing Mr Grunfeld as "a Shillman Journalism Fellow at the Freedom Centre," which seems a little strange to me given that the Zionist rag you linked to, brian, is actually financed by Mr Horowitz's "Freedom Centre"
And if you had bothered to click on that link I left at the bottom of my previous comment, brian, you would have seen that Mr Horowitz is linked to a whole host of other Zionist-financed hate groups who spend their time spreading a Pro-zionist Anti-Muslim Anti-Arab Pro-War message.
Nice company yer keeping there, brian
Posted by: hmm | Sep 19, 2013 10:30:54 AM | 75
"why am i not surprised u support the Muslim Brotherhood?
Now brian, there really is no need to start lying.
Much too earlier in the day for that, brian
Posted by: hmm | Sep 19, 2013 10:31:51 AM | 76
Specifically the first site the UN commission visited was near Moadamiyah, south of Damascus. (....) But all environment samples taken in Moadamiyah proved negative (Appendix 6 and 7 of the UN report. Sample 1 to 12 taken on August 26.)
It cannot be ascertained with certainty that the enviro samples from Moadamiyah do not show any proof of sarin, because the enviro samples collected and the samples or ‘other’ material analysed don’t have unique codes, and the number of samples (30) and the number of ‘things, items’ analysed (42) don’t match up, and some of the descriptions of what was analysed match, while others do not (are unique to one or the other list.)
Certainly it looks likely that the Moad. samples are ‘dodgy’ for the environmental proof, it was my first intuitive conclusion.
This might have come about in various ways - bad unlucky sampling, survivors brought in from round and about, etc.
Being picky here is boring, I will shut up after this ! promise!
Aim is not to prove / disprove one or another conclusion but to show:
how unscientific and sneaky reports of this type (UN, Gvmts, S Service, etc.) are and how hard it is to sort out, often it is not possible
These are political documents, not serious studies but a version of propaganda ‘proof’ similar to the ‘science’ support for weight reducing methods. Not to mention the Pharma industry, they are the biggest fakers and cheaters hiding behind all kinds of fraud with fake protocols and excuses, etc.
The main point stands:
Few enviro samples proved clearly ‘positive’, the numbers analyzed are very small - 31 ppl positive blood tests for sarin...
MSF is still insisting 3,600 ppl turned up in hospitals (with 355 dead.)
Posted by: Noirette | Sep 19, 2013 10:34:18 AM | 77
kevin barret is an aplogist for the muslim brotherhood. He was entertained by the turkish branch of the brotherhood and spoke glowingly of them in the past.
Posted by: hilmi hakim | Sep 19, 2013 10:44:13 AM | 79
"President Barack Obama may have drawn his seemingly regretted “red line” around Syria’s chemical weapons, but it was neither he nor the international community that turned the spotlight on their use. That task fell to Israel."
Posted by: ben | Sep 19, 2013 10:48:33 AM | 80
this too, I'm sure, will have given Mr Nuttinyahoo a bit of an emotional lift
Both the Egyptian navy and the Israeli Navy attack Palestinian fishermen. One might be forgiven for suspecting a certain amount of co-ordination, wouldn't you say, brian?
Egyptian navy attacks fishermen in Palestinian waters
GAZA (PIC) 15 Sept — The Egyptian naval forces opened fire on Saturday evening at Palestinian fishermen and physically assaulted two of them during an incursion into the territorial waters of the Gaza Strip. Dean of the Gazan fishermen Nizar Ayyash told the Palestinian information center (PIC) that Egyptian naval soldiers detained fisherman Omar Bardawil, 40, along with his son Ziyad, 13, and brutally beat him before confiscating the outboard motor of his boat. Ayyash said this incident was the second of its kind after the Egyptian navy had wounded two weeks ago two Gazan fishermen and kidnapped five others during an armed attack on them in Gaza territorial waters
Israeli gunboats open fire at Palestinian fishing boats
GAZA (PIC) 15 Sept — Israeli gunboats opened heavy machine gun fire at Palestinian fishing boats off the coast of Gaza city and Sudaniya area, north of Gaza Strip, on Sunday morning. A PIC reporter said that no casualties or damages were reported in the heavy shooting that targeted fishermen and their boats.
Why does Al Sisi not want Gazans to eat, brian?
Posted by: hmm | Sep 19, 2013 10:52:29 AM | 81
<"kevin barret is an aplogist for the muslim brotherhood. He was entertained by the turkish branch of the brotherhood and spoke glowingly of them in the past."
that's nice - good thing I pointed out that the org he mentioned, the one that Al Sisi's alleged Uncle was allegedly a member of, does not seem to exist, eh?
Phew! . . . . dodged a bullet there, eh?
Posted by: hmm | Sep 19, 2013 10:54:38 AM | 82
Some politician or political groups will publicly say something but will actually run the opposite policy. Let me give you 2 examples here to prove my case and at the same time advance a theory.
Look at Erdogan: he publicly chatisized Israel and put on a show of anger and mistrust against their leaders so he can enroll more supporters at home. Then, he "coordinated" with the US on the tactics to counter the Iranian influence in the region. He presented himself and his party to the American public as some kind moderate Islamic version a la Christian Democrats in Germany to establish his credentials. He finally, in practice, implemented the strategy planned in cahoot to push on the same political lever that Israel and the US were preparing for the Middle-East, while once in a while publicly bashing Israel.
And look at the Taliban: they voluntarily display(ed) an extremist and fanatical look to the Western public and their rhetoric seems radicaly anti-american, their real actions though are all in accordance, and with the self-awareness I would say since they are clearly manipulated by Pakistani ISI and Saudis which are client states, of the model of sectarian clashes prepared for the region.
Now my theory is that the strategy followed in the region since 15 years ago at least had an overwhelming focus on the Iranian growing influence in the middle-east: To squeeze her in the legitimacy sphere a scheme was concocted of having the poiltical space being narrowed from both directions to limit her freedom of ideological movement and to pressure her in an economic and military domain a crisis was invented which would have put Iran step by step closer to a bind.
Somehow though, and the cleverness of the Iranian policy makers being a big factor in that and the huge strategic mistakes of the Bush and Obama administrations helpful too, the whole project is not going forward according to the plan. It also looks to me that the Obama administration has understood the hurdles that makes the whole plan un-realist but they either don't have the courage or the means to extradict the US from this mess.
Posted by: ATH | Sep 19, 2013 10:56:02 AM | 83
Kevin Barrett is basically an implausible character. How could anyone believe that his ultra-radical 'Truth Jihad' could flourish for years on end if it did not enjoy some protection? There are others like him who first appeared within the 9/11 Truth community and subsequently established little discursive empires of their own, which included writing regular op-eds for Press TV. It makes me wonder, quite frankly, about Press TV itself.
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Sep 19, 2013 10:56:26 AM | 84
Big yawn... And so was Qaddafi.
Could you point to me a single Muslim and/or Arab who does not have a Jewish ancestor or cousin? BTW, what are your definitions of "Muslim", "Arab" and "Jewish"? It would help clarify a question that is obviously obsessing you.
Posted by: Mina | Sep 19, 2013 11:05:36 AM | 85
"yawn", "obsess" - Nice trolling, Mina
"BTW, what are your definitions of "Muslim", "Arab" and "Jewish"?"
If you are having problems with those words Mina, don't look to me to solve them for you.
I suggest a dictionary.
Posted by: hmm | Sep 19, 2013 11:10:15 AM | 86
Kevin is a friend of mine. He has been struggling financially since he lost his job at the University of Wisconsin at Madison. The reason he has been able to "florish for years" is that he works very hard and puts in very long hours. Also, he is relatively ineffective. He is not as effective or does not have nearly as large an audience as, say, Alex Jones. If there is any "protection", it comes from that. In other words, should be be deemed to become an actual threat, he will be threatened, etc.
Posted by: Unknown Unknowns | Sep 19, 2013 11:20:16 AM | 87
I suggest you to read something (in Arabic) about the tribes living in the Arab peninsula during the first millenium. It does not mean that these tribes go back to "Adam", as some would claim. The "nations" concept I see rather as a rotten heritage from the Greek and Roman empires. Add to that the huge number of Jewish viziers who worked for every single Muslim dynasty and you'll find the ancestors of some of your converted friends. After all, Islam starts in the 7th century, so the Muslims must have some Jewish, Christian, and Pagan ancestors. But that's a topic the Saudis prefer to bury. It seems odd anyway to define an ancestor by his religion, and unfortunately I don't believe in races.
The army intervention has prevented a civil war which was planned to lead Egypt into a copy of the Syrian situation, and allow Israel to reinvade Sinai and push the Palestinians to Rafah and Al Arish. Full point. You and me are not playing in the same team: I am a woman, and the Islamist agenda hurts ME in the first place. Women had a better life under Saddam Hussein, Mubarak, and Assad, if you want my opinion.
If you want to catch up about Egypt, here are some voices who show that there are different points of views to be heard there too. I am a fan of Bassam Youssef much more than of any military guy on this planet (first link below). You can't pretend on one side that you support Putin for his rational actions, and attack anyone as a lackey of Israel, as if there were no other influent possies on this planet (the crown heads in Europe, the bankers around the world, who happen to be from very different religions background, the elite families who happen to be ruling the media empires and the weapon industry, etc.)
Please note that I am not intending to start a conversation with you, because I lack a background in psychiatry. There is one excuse I give you, it is that you probably live in the US, where the lobby is indeed the heaviest parameter on Capitol Hill. But not every reader of MoA lives in the US, and you should allow them not to share your obsession.
Recent readings on Egypt
Posted by: Mina | Sep 19, 2013 11:38:38 AM | 88
Gaza decries Egypt's crackdown on tunnels
The tunnels' destruction, which began after Egypt's army in July ousted president Mohammed Mursi of the Muslim Brotherhood, a Hamas ally, has already affected residents of Rafah.
Basel Taha, a man in his 30s who worked guarding a now-defunct tunnel through which building materials were brought into Gaza, said the move had "destroyed the lives of hundreds of workers.
"I don't have even one shekel (25 cents, 20 eurocents) to spend on my children's schooling. I think night and day trying to find a solution but I can't. Death is better than this," he told AFP.
A 40-year-old man who requested anonymity said he had to help extend a tunnel from 400 meters in length to 1.5 kilometers to try to avoid the demolitions, but the Egyptian army found the new exit and destroyed it.
Bulldozers on the other side of barbed wire fences, within sight of Palestinian residents of Rafah, mow down trees, sand banks, tents and even houses that sit over the tunnel entrances on the Egyptian side.
"They've destroyed 700 tunnels for the buffer zone," said Abu Taha, a 30-year-old in charge of a tunnel used to smuggle in fuel.
Posted by: hmm | Sep 19, 2013 11:47:53 AM | 89
"Please note that I am not intending to start a conversation with you
well thank gawd fer that. Small mercies are as welcome as big ones. Though to be honest, for someone that claims that they "do not want to start a conversation", you certainly do a good impression of someone engaging in a conversation, Mina.
If yer really intent on not starting a conversation, it would probably best not to make several-hundred-word replies, tbh.
Oh btw: You really should not make so many unfounded presumptions, Mina. Just leaves you looking silly
"After all, Islam starts in the 7th century, so the Muslims must have some Jewish, Christian, and Pagan ancestors.
Lot's of them in fact. even amongst Israeli Scholars it is acknowledged that many Arabs in the area would certainly have had Jewish ancestors, since many many once-Jewish inhabitants of the area are presumed to have converted to Islam over the years. This is all documented, even in English, and no doubt in other languages too.
But what confuses me about your several-hundred-word non-conversational reply, Mina , complete with http links no less, is: "What does any of that have to do with anything I said relating to Zionist-financed hate groups who spend their time spreading a Pro-zionist Anti-Muslim Anti-Arab Pro-War message?"
That's the bit that I'm wondering about right now.
Posted by: hmm | Sep 19, 2013 12:02:51 PM | 90
Thank you for your blog, b. It has quickly become a daily read for me over the last couple of months, and your comments and analysis are always well informed and worth giving some attention and thought to.
However, I have to say that all the personal invective in the comment threads here -- NOT your fault, I know -- is extremely discouraging and, ultimately, exhausting. To those commenters, PLEASE, it is difficult to take your offerings seriously when they are laced with such poisonous distractions.
Posted by: M.Black | Sep 19, 2013 12:48:47 PM | 91
I agree. We must stop abusing each other. Hmmm, you must stop being horrible to Zomebody.
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Sep 19, 2013 1:12:27 PM | 92
I've just noticed that that Kevin Barrett thing is on the Veterans Today site. God knows who Press TV thinks it's talking to with Gordon Duff, Jim Dean, and Jim Fetzer. What can I say. It's a smell test. I just smell phonies straight away. Perhaps when you are developing the capacity to smell phonies, it takes a while. Perhaps after reading 10 or 20 Gordon Duff columns, you realise you are dealing with a phony. Perhaps it's the fact that he's completely incapable of providing what anyone outside his tiny flock would call evidence. A good example would be his claim that US school shootings are actually carried out by Israeli death squads, in what he bizarrely imagines is a 'psy-op'. I mean, life is too short to listen to nonsense, surely. Some non-phony people allow their stuff to appear there, because they just don't care, or perhaps it's simply pirated, eg Wayne Madsen. Some people never appear there, for some reason, eg Christopher Bollyn. But anyway, to hell with all of them, and all their wild theories and polemics, including Kevin Barrett, AFAIC. This is not because of the content necessarily. I mean, I have no problem with holocaust deniers, for instance. It's a matter of arguing responsibly and bringing evidence, which none of these so-called veterans ever do.
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Sep 19, 2013 3:54:44 PM | 95
Shameless Zio-Nazis still angling for attacks on Syria and Iran
Counterpunch – 18 September 2013
President Barack Obama may have drawn his seemingly regretted “red line” around Syria’s chemical weapons, but it was neither he nor the international community that turned the spotlight on their use.
That task fell to Israel.
It was an Israeli general who claimed in April that Damascus had used chemical weapons, forcing Obama into an embarrassing demurral on his stated commitment to intervene should that happen.
According to the Israeli media, it was also Israel that provided the intelligence that blamed the Syrian president, Bashar Al Assad, for the latest chemical weapons attack, near Damascus on August 21, triggering the clamour for a US military response.
It is worth remembering that Obama’s supposed “dithering” on the question of military action has only been accentuated by Israel’s “daring” strikes on Syria – at least three since the start of the year.It looks as though Israel, while remaining largely mute about its interests in the civil war raging there, has been doing a great deal to pressure the White House into direct involvement in Syria.That momentum appears to have been halted, for the time being at least, by the deal agreed at the weekend by the US and Russia to dismantle Syria’s chemical weapons arsenal.
To understand the respective views of the White House and Israel on attacking Syria, one needs to revisit the US-led invasion of Iraq a decade ago.
Israel and its ideological twin in Washington, the neoconservatives, rallied to the cause of toppling Saddam Hussein, believing that it should be the prelude to an equally devastating blow against Iran.
Israel was keen to see its two chief regional enemies weakened simultaneously. Saddam’s Iraq had been the chief sponsor of Palestinian resistance against Israel. Iran, meanwhile, had begun developing a civilian nuclear programme that Israel feared could pave the way to an Iranian bomb, ending Israel’s regional monopoly on nuclear weapons.
The neocons carried out the first phase of the plan, destroying Iraq, but then ran up against domestic opposition that blocked implementation of the second stage: the break-up of Iran.The consequences are well known. As Iraq imploded into sectarian violence, Iran’s fortunes rose.
Tehran strengthened its role as regional sponsor of resistance against Israel – or what became Washington’s new “axis of evil” – that included Hizbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza.
Israel and the US both regard Syria as the geographical “keystone” of that axis, as Israel’s outgoing ambassador to the US, Michael Oren, told the Jerusalem Post this week, and one that needs to be removed if Iran is to be isolated, weakened or attacked.-
Posted by: hmm | Sep 19, 2013 4:05:40 PM | 96
@38 and 39
While there is much to admire at Global Research, there is an undeniable blind-spot. Here is what Chris Bollyn said about it, in an email of 9/13/12:
Dear Mr. Chossudovsky,
Recently, I have been getting a lot of email messages about how CRG seems to be avoiding the evidence of Israeli/Zionist involvement in the crimes of 9-11. I would like to ask you why so many people seem to think that CRG is avoiding this matter. Do you think that Israelis and Zionists played a key role in the events of 9-11 - and the subsequent cover-up?
There was no reply. Perhaps not surprising. In the year after 9/11 Chossudovsky had put out a very long and complicated article in which he put the blame for 9/11 squarely on Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, but not a word about Israel. Last year, around the anniversary of 9/11, Chossudovsky sent out a self-congratulatory letter: "In an era of media disinformation, our focus has essentially been to center on the “unspoken truth”." But not a word about Jews. He mentioned that his website had come into existence just two days before 9/11. About the GR founding date, a nagging thought entered my head - maybe the timing MC speaks of was not a coincidence. Like the sudden failure of Muslim websites, and the September 10 announcement by Rumsfeld that two trillion dollars were missing from the Pentagon. Bollyn agrees: "What amazing timing for a site that seems to be involved in disinfo. Chossudovsky is an orthodox Jew from London, after all."
Posted by: sarz | Sep 19, 2013 4:07:46 PM | 97
They believe they are doing some anti-MSM propaganda. Do you have any reason denigrating such activities ? Even if you think they are bullsh...ng just don't read them whenever they are linked here.
Posted by: ATH | Sep 19, 2013 4:14:28 PM | 98
Posted by: des | Sep 19, 2013 7:28:36 PM | 99
95/97 :-)) it is a genre: polit fiction.
Actually, these people give the MSM a good name. How can anybody be taken seriously who criticizes propaganda that is based on fact whilst approving propaganda that is pure fiction.
Posted by: somebody | Sep 19, 2013 8:05:31 PM | 100