Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 31, 2013

Why Kerry's "Know" Speech Is Fundamentally Wrong

To assess something, without having confirmation, is fundamentally different from knowing something.

Secretary of State John Kerry’s remarks on Syria on Aug. 30

what we know ... I know that ... what we know will ... some things we do know ... we really know ... we know that ... We know that the regime ... We know that the regime ... We know that for three days ... And we know that the Syrian regime ... We know that these were ... We know where ... We know where they ... We know rockets ... And we know, as does the world, ... And we know it was ... we know what ... now knows that ... We also know ... We know that ... We know this. ... And we know what they did ... as we now know ... things that we know ... what do we know ... we know what we know ... that we don’t already know. ... we know that after a decade ... these things we do know ... We also know ... because we know ... So that is what we know ... now know ... need to know
U.S. Government Assessment of the Syrian Government’s Use of Chemical Weapons on August 21, 2013
The United States Government assesses ... We further assess ... all-source assessments ... Our classified assessments ... A preliminary U.S. government assessment ... though this assessment will certainly evolve ... We assess with ... We assess that ... this assessment includes ... Our high confidence assessment is the strongest position that the U.S. Intelligence Community can take short of confirmation.
Kerry may think something or believe something but, despite him using the word 35 times, he does not know s....

Posted by b on August 31, 2013 at 10:54 AM | Permalink

Comments

A lot of people have sensed the BS being spewed from Washington..Putin today called BS and asked the US to present their so-called evidence to the UNSC.

This won't happen as there's a lot of holes in the evidence... Again, we see the US painting itself again into a corner with stupid pronouncements.

Posted by: Zico | Aug 31, 2013 11:32:05 AM | 1

Great post b, they have no proof.

Could it be that Obama not only will ignore UNSC but ignore the Congress too? People talking about a strike this coming night, how stupid is this man?!

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 31, 2013 11:46:32 AM | 2

Never trust people that claim as fact what can only at best be described as conjecture

When arabs or muslims are the target, the perps are usually Zio-Nazis of one form or another

Just saying

Mr Kerry for example, is NOT descended from emigrants from Kerry, nor has he any connection to that place.

The family name was changed in order to disguise it's origins.

No prizes for guessing why he chose to disguise those origins, not for why he chose to sound a little "Irishy"

Posted by: hmm | Aug 31, 2013 11:47:18 AM | 3

US intel may actually KNOW "how many rockets", "where they landed", and "when..." but will never know for sure who or how some poison may have been delivered to victims... very clever rhetoric.
what the US DOES KNOW, it isn't saying. the secrecy of the evidence could simply be because the US helped someone with materials or planning. WE KNOW the US is backing terrorists. WE KNOW the US is helping "train" them in Jordan. WE KNOW the US is facilitating arms sales. WE KNOW gulf states are writing huge checks. WE KNOW special ops guys have been in Syria. WE KNOW the US badly wanted to say Assad used CW's to use as an excuse to take out Syria's infrastructure.

WE DON'T KNOW why the omniscient NSA couldn't learn anything BEFORE people got killed with apparent CW's. WE DON'T KNOW why the US relies on secret notes from Israel instead of the omniscient NSA (probably so they can sef-reference sources like the Judith Miller scam). WE DON'T KNOW why deaths of Arab children and families are suddenly so sad for the US while it knocks them out daily without any tears. WE DON'T KNOW why Israel gets away with firing missiles into Syria without staging "colin powell" speeches first. WE DON'T KNOW what the hell the US thinks it is doing with all of this except creating a bigger problem with Iran.

Posted by: anon | Aug 31, 2013 11:56:26 AM | 4

Craig Murray has a very interesting and well informed post today, on the British Communications centre of Troodos in Cyprus, at:


http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

This is a brief excerpt showing that Mossad's "evidence", the keystone of the Kerry case, is clearly fabricated:
"...Israel has repeatedly been involved in the Syrian civil war, carrying out a number of illegal bombings and missile strikes over many months. This absolutely illegal activity by Israel- which has killed a great many civilians, including children - has brought no condemnation at all from the West. Israel has now provided “intelligence” to the United States designed to allow the United States to join in with Israel’s bombing and missile campaign.

"The answer to the Troodos Conundrum is simple. Troodos did not pick up the intercepts because they do not exist. Mossad fabricated them. John Kerry’s “evidence” is the shabbiest of tricks. More children may now be blown to pieces by massive American missile blasts. It is nothing to do with humanitarian intervention. It is, yet again, the USA acting at the behest of Israel."


Posted by: bevin | Aug 31, 2013 11:59:10 AM | 5

One wonders why Mr. Kerry like his predecessors as an enforcing evidence deprived the word of nice cartoonish colorful drawings likes of what world is used to see from our own very imaginative CIA graphic artists (mobile Iraqi chemical units, Iran’s nuclear test chamber etc.)

Since not many (any) people including in his own country were convinced with his yesterday’s ridiculous speech of “We know, we know we know……believe us we know.” one would have thought a series of nice colorful sketches playing in the background on power point would have been more convincing while he was BSing his known known to the world.

Fortunately and justifiably foreign policy of this country (super hyper exceptional of the mankind is now totally degraded down to Tom and Jerry cartoons.


Posted by: kooshy | Aug 31, 2013 12:05:43 PM | 6

US intel may actually KNOW "how many rockets", "where they landed", and "when..."
Even that may be untrue. Do you remember Petri Krohn's theory? It's on here, but I shall just copy it. This is how it works, at its maximum: first, the Dale Gavlak and Yahya Ababneh scenario. Untrained rebel underlings let off the chemical bombs by accident:
We conducted numerous interviews with doctors, Ghouta residents, rebel fighters and their families. Many believe that certain rebels received chemical weapons from Saudi intelligence chief Prince Bandar, and were responsible for carrying out the gas attack. Abu Abdel-Moneim, the father of a rebel fighting to unseat Assad, who lives in Ghouta, said: "My son and 12 other rebels were killed during the chemical weapons attack, inside a tunnel used to store weapons provided by a Saudi known as Abu Ayesha, who was leading a fighting battalion. My son came to me two weeks ago asking what I thought the weapons were that he had been asked to carry. Some of the weapons were like tubes and others were like huge gas bottles." Ghouta townspeople said the rebels were using mosques and private houses to sleep while storing their weapons in tunnels. A female fighter said: "They didn’t tell us what these arms were or how to use them. We didn’t know they were chemical weapons. We never imagined they were chemical weapons. When Saudi Prince Bandar gives such weapons to people, he must give them to those who know how to handle and use them." A well-known rebel leader in Ghouta said: "Jabhat al-Nusra militants do not cooperate with other rebels, except with fighting on the ground. They do not share secret information. They merely used some ordinary rebels to carry and operate this material. We were very curious about these arms. And unfortunately, some of the fighters handled the weapons improperly and set off the explosions."
Then the bodies are dumped all around:
About 1000 hostages are still missing from the recent al-Qaeda massacres in Latakia and Tal Abyad. These Alawite and Kurd hostages, and some more from Damascus or from Douma were gassed in some confined space, then left dead or dying at the hospital. Some teargas was released here and there to cause panic. Drops of sarin were left somewhere for the UN team to find. Petri Krohn, Aug 29 2013 1:41:54 PM | 30

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Aug 31, 2013 12:07:33 PM | 7

@5

This is a brief excerpt showing that Mossad's "evidence", the keystone of the Kerry case, is clearly fabricated

So it is all based on a steaming pile of Zio-Nazi lies?

Well there's a surprise!

Posted by: hmm | Aug 31, 2013 12:13:15 PM | 8

@5

Problem with Mr Murray though is that he seems to accept that "humanitarian intervention" is somehow a legitimate concept

One suspects that were the circumstances otherwise, were for example the Zio-Nazi fabrications less obviously fabricated, Mr Murray might take a different view as to the legitimacy of the whole concept of "humanitarian intervention"

Iirc, Mr Murray initially somewhat supported the Libyan takedown

Posted by: hmm | Aug 31, 2013 12:21:09 PM | 9

re#5: which makes skull&bones kerry(et al)liars of the first magnitude. and more swabo's will die for that shitty little country,just like in '67...

Posted by: bfrakes | Aug 31, 2013 12:22:38 PM | 10

test - my apologies. apparently 3 links are stopping my post.

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 31, 2013 12:38:13 PM | 11

It is interesting to watch the governments in the US and UK play out the Iraq issue.

What the Gulf War was to Vietnam, so is this potential war in Syria is to be seen as the "repudiation" of public "war weariness" after the debacle in Iraq.

The similarities are remarkable. Just as it had to be the Republicans to make militarism palatable following the deep defeats of the Democrats, now in both the US and UK governments it is the former opposition parties who seek to bury the Iraq experience. Just as the Gulf war was billed as a case of "clear aggression" with "an exit strategy" as opposed to entering the open-ended civil conflict in Vietnam, so is this war billed as "limited" and "humanitarian" as opposed to Iraq occupation's "clearly political" nature. In both cases the government derides the people's overwhelming concerns not as the moral objections learned from decades of watching their countries butcher others for no good reason, but simply as "war weary" and "stuck in the past".

What is bizarre is that they try this while the wars they seek to "put behind us" are still well underway, both in Iraq and Afghanistan. There are a few very young Americans who, because of their age and the full court press in the media, see the "Arab Spring" as the mythic moment from which the Syrian conflict emerged. But they were not old enough to remember the first bombings by Sunni extremists against the Shia in Iraq. There is a young group that weren't there when we were told the exact same things about Saddam Hussein - evil dictator, WMD, what if we don't act - only to watch our nation create, seemingly out of thin air, a violent civil war and descend into a regime of torture and spying.

It is astonishing to watch Barack Obama who was elected on a platform of, if nothing else, his repudiation of the Iraq War, seek to bomb Syria under even more questionable circumstances and with even fewer foreign friends. We all knew by 2009 or so that "Hope and Change" was little more than an empty slogan, but this is just rubbing it in.

Luckily, the people of the world are not buying this rush to war.

.....

On his latest "Comment" George Galloway reported that David Cameron's phone call to the Chinese foreign ministry was met with an answer from a low level staffer who told him that the minister was not available to speak and that in any case there were no circumstances under which China would vote for an attack on Syria in the UNSC.

The question is - what do they do to prevent it or at the very least make it costly.

They should bring their own resolutions to the UNSC condemning any strike seeking to sanction the US for carrying it out. They will lose of course, but it will bring the issue into the spotlight and they'll have the sympathy of the 90% of the Western people who don't want to see this war happen.

Posted by: guest77 | Aug 31, 2013 12:45:26 PM | 12

So rumours has it that an attack will occur the coming Days, it could be this coming night, remember when Libya were attacked they started bombing just past midnight, so if something going to happen, this is the time and forward we should focus on tonight.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 31, 2013 12:46:48 PM | 13

Completely random bits of news I've picked up.

- The scum Barack Obama will be speaking in under an hour (1:20 US Time, 6:20 Western European Time)

- My prediction (in a long line of wrong predictions) is that the bombs will start falling tonight.

- Iran's head of National Security, Alaeddin Boroujerdi paid an unscheduled public visit to Damascus today. A bold move likely to offer public support and coordinate any response.

- From watching Sky News there is a large Anti-War protest in London today impressed they could pull it off on such short notice. Was the one benefit of Iraq that the months long build up to war gave the anti-war movement time to prepare. US and European governments learned the lesson now wars are hyped and started within a week. No prolonged build-up.

- Sky News also reporting a lot of activity in the US-run Turkish Incirlik Air base.

Posted by: Colm O' Toole | Aug 31, 2013 12:47:04 PM | 14

Ok, big news is apparently coming, Obama is about to talk in 30 minutes. Seems indeed like this would be the declaration of way by the idiot Obama.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 31, 2013 12:51:41 PM | 15

Kerry is the new Jean Gabin, altough he dropped the best lines...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEkJ45ZXK-o

"Quand j'étais gosse, haut comme trois pommes,
J'parlais bien fort pour être un homme
J'disais, JE SAIS, JE SAIS, JE SAIS, JE SAIS
C'était l'début, c'était l'printemps
Mais quand j'ai eu mes 18 ans
J'ai dit, JE SAIS, ça y est, cette fois JE SAIS
Et aujourd'hui, les jours où je m'retourne
J'regarde la terre où j'ai quand même fait les 100 pas
Et je n'sais toujours pas comment elle tourne !
Vers 25 ans, j'savais tout : l'amour, les roses, la vie, les sous
Tiens oui l'amour ! J'en avais fait tout le tour !
Et heureusement, comme les copains, j'avais pas mangé tout mon pain :
Au milieu de ma vie, j'ai encore appris.
C'que j'ai appris, ça tient en trois, quatre mots :
"Le jour où quelqu'un vous aime, il fait très beau,
j'peux pas mieux dire, il fait très beau !
C'est encore ce qui m'étonne dans la vie,
Moi qui suis à l'automne de ma vie
On oublie tant de soirs de tristesse
Mais jamais un matin de tendresse !
Toute ma jeunesse, j'ai voulu dire JE SAIS
Seulement, plus je cherchais, et puis moins j' savais
Il y a 60 coups qui ont sonné à l'horloge
Je suis encore à ma fenêtre, je regarde, et j'm'interroge ?
Maintenant JE SAIS, JE SAIS QU'ON NE SAIT JAMAIS !
La vie, l'amour, l'argent, les amis et les roses
On ne sait jamais le bruit ni la couleur des choses
C'est tout c'que j'sais ! Mais ça, j'le SAIS... !"

english version (some indulgence required plz, you know how we frenchies suck when we speak english ^^ )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxXLTCIFwFo

Posted by: zingaro | Aug 31, 2013 12:55:40 PM | 16

Syria CW attack. Petri Khon on another thread wrote, quote,

What we would need to see is:

– Video of dead family killed in their home.
– Video of family member or neighbor, in situ, describing how the whole family was killed.
– Video of dead animals in situ.
– Video of the attack site, empty houses, without fresh bomb damage, abandoned in panic or cleared of dead bodies.
– Lists of victims with addresses.
– Any sign that the claimed victims ever lived in the effected areas.

---

Videos only, watched for 5 hours.

I am not arguing for it’s own sake, or prove anything. It is simply hallucinating that such a hullaballoo should explode on so little fact or evidence. I list some grave points of difficulty, of different types.

1) There were several previous alleged CW attacks. I did not sort these out, as concerned only with the attack in the early hours of 21 aug - I accepted the date 22-25 Aug as a mistake in reporting/or as upload date.

The foaming mouth vids (except maybe for one child) are all from pre Aug21. As are those who show women (Aleppo, May, which is clearly by pro Assad activists. No link for now.)

The vids of all the attacks get muddled together in the MSM without proper dating. I came to the conclusion that the previous ‘attacks’ were far better documented. The bulk of vids. with consequent content are previous to Aug21. Ex Douma, May:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmZvbO6wGn0

2) None of the Aug21 vids can be securely dated by me, although a few do show scenes different from the other attacks. Maybe : something did take place but I have doubts about the amplitude, scope, etc.

3) All the vids. have a somewhat staged, hyper-real air. Now this is partly natural. It is the Zeitgeist - dramatic images required. Cultural factors: No women victims are portrayed, unless dead in a shroud, completely covered with a blanket, etc. I saw not one fully dressed woman (except for med staff with scarves and a few relatives in full abayas, but they are not victims...) This in itself shows that filming was selective and the scenes ‘arranged’ by e.g. skipping the women, removing them, covering the dead ones. All the live victims suffering are men and children. Some crowd scenes contain no women at all. (Victims need to be shown partly undressed so as to appear shocking, vulnerable, etc.) So how far does the arranging go?
4) Aug21 took place in the dead of night, reports from 2.00, 2.30 to 4.00. In many of the vids the dead victims (a few alive) are wearing day clothes, incl. tied shoes, belts, etc. The children, specially if wholly or partly naked, are of course ambiguous. The uncovered men all wear ‘day’ underpants, and a ‘day‘ top like a white shirt if that is shown. This is odd. There is no way that in a serious CW attack ppl got dressed to then instantly fall over and die in the street. Or bothered with belts and shoes before leaving a closed space filled with gas.

black pants (typical day clothes vid.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU7gnT9Pz4A

Or a family escaping fully dressed to die on the stairs and in the street. (no link, there are too many in this post)

5) Nothing much can be made of the ‘crowd dead’ scenes (lines of bodies in shrouds, or dressed, on the floor in some kind of locale, etc.) They could be from all kinds of events.

6) Finer analysis shows some disturbing aspects.

continued...

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 31, 2013 12:58:20 PM | 17

So C-Span will switch from the replay of the 50th Anniversary of the March on Washington.

In fact, they are showing Obama standing with Jimmy Carter now, he may well be speaking of the important legacy of that peacemaker and friend of the poor Martin Luther King Jr when they cut to his live speech where he announces he will murder thousands of poor people in Syria at the behest of racist murderers.

We may well have the first American casualties of this war when the cognitive dissonance breaks a few necks.

Posted by: guest77 | Aug 31, 2013 1:08:33 PM | 18

Here goes without the links, I will try and post them afterwards.

Syria CW attack. Petri Khon on another thread wrote, quote,

What we would need to see is:


– Video of dead family killed in their home.


– Video of family member or neighbor, in situ, describing how the whole family was killed.


– Video of dead animals in situ.


– Video of the attack site, empty houses, without fresh bomb damage, abandoned in panic or cleared of dead bodies.


– Lists of victims with addresses.
– Any sign that the claimed victims ever lived in the effected areas.

---

Videos only, watched for 5 hours.

I am not arguing for it’s own sake, or prove anything. It is simply hallucinating that such a hullaballoo should explode on so little fact or evidence. I list some grave points of difficulty, of different types.

1) There were several previous alleged CW attacks. I did not sort these out, as concerned only with the attack in the early hours of 21 aug - I accepted the date 22-25 Aug as a mistake in reporting/or as upload date.

The foaming mouth vids (except maybe for one child) are all from pre Aug21. As are those who show women (Aleppo, May, which is clearly by pro Assad activists. No link for now.)

The vids of all the attacks get muddled together in the MSM without proper dating. I came to the conclusion that the previous ‘attacks’ were far better documented. The bulk of vids. with consequent content are previous to Aug21. Ex. Douma, May:

link 1 (see hopefully subsequent post)

2) None of the Aug21 vids can be securely dated by me, although a few do show scenes different from the other attacks. Maybe : something did take place but I have doubts about the amplitude, scope, etc.

3) All the vids. have a somewhat staged, hyper-real air. Now this is partly natural. It is the Zeitgeist - dramatic images required. Cultural factors: No women victims are portrayed, unless dead in a shroud, completely covered with a blanket, etc. I saw not one fully dressed woman (except for med staff with scarves and a few relatives in full abayas, but they are not victims...) This in itself shows that filming was selective and the scenes ‘arranged’ by e.g. skipping the women, removing them, covering the dead ones. All the live victims suffering are men and children. Some crowd scenes contain no women at all. (Victims need to be shown partly undressed so as to appear shocking, vulnerable, etc.) So how far does the arranging go?

4) Aug21 took place in the dead of night, reports from 2.00, 2.30 to 4.00. In many of the vids the dead victims (a few alive) are wearing day clothes, incl. tied shoes, belts, etc. The children, specially if wholly or partly naked, are of course ambiguous. The uncovered men all wear ‘day’ underpants, and a ‘day‘ top like a white shirt if that is shown. This is odd. There is no way that in a serious CW attack ppl got dressed to then instantly fall over and die in the street. Or bothered with belts and shoes before leaving a closed space filled with gas.

black pants (typical day clothes vid.)

link 2 (see hopefully subsequent post)

Or a family escaping fully dressed to die on the stairs and in the street. (no link, ...)

5) Nothing much can be made of the ‘crowd dead’ scenes (lines of bodies in shrouds, or dressed, on the floor in some kind of locale, etc.) They could be from all kinds of events.

6) Finer analysis shows some disturbing aspects.

----------------

to be continued.

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 31, 2013 1:10:14 PM | 19

nyah, nyah, nyah ...

Zeke Miller ‏@ZekeJMiller 32m

WH official: Obama will not announce imminent military operation in Syria. The President will instead provide update on his deliberations

:-))

Posted by: somebody | Aug 31, 2013 1:12:14 PM | 20

link 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmZvbO6wGn0

link 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU7gnT9Pz4A

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 31, 2013 1:14:21 PM | 21

Hilarious, i'm sure

Posted by: hmm | Aug 31, 2013 1:15:10 PM | 22

See this new post by Amal Saad Ghorayeb, a leading Lebanese scholar of Hezbollah:

http://resistance-episteme.tumblr.com/post/59860197187/hizbullahs-expected-response-to-a-strike-that-exceeds

Posted by: anon4569245555 | Aug 31, 2013 1:16:13 PM | 23

My prediction? - no military attack

Posted by: hmm | Aug 31, 2013 1:22:59 PM | 24

Just an hypothesis here but...
If ZUSA strike and Syria retaliates by sending some missiles to Israel, is it possible that the zionist entity will ask all countries they got military co-operation agreement with to come to the rescue? Could it be what they're waiting for?

Posted by: Gregg | Aug 31, 2013 1:23:25 PM | 25

UN/Ban Ki Moon is getting Cold feet, obviously they are complicit in the attack on Syria. They leave so US could attack.

United nations rejects that it is pulling out of Syria to allow US strikes
http://www.thestar.com.my/News/World/2013/09/01/UN-rejects-suggestion-its-pulling-out-of-Syria-to-allow-strikes.aspx

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 31, 2013 1:27:00 PM | 26

where is this speech? Nothing on CSpan so far...

Posted by: guest77 | Aug 31, 2013 1:29:50 PM | 27

Apologies for this piece-meal post. I guess it looks incoherent.

I found only a very few ‘pyjama’ and ‘night’ videos, for the night attacks of 21 Aug. The most realistic vids of alleged 21 Aug. Best docs!

yellow PJ boy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU7gnT9Pz4A

red T girl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WTAQ5_e52U

the green vid

This is in two parts and shows a man being hosed by day, thus 5-10 hours after the attacks?

> sadly the green vid was posted on 9 (nine) August

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgyE4AIES8A

All the above vids are most likely? from the same locale, the Douma Emergency collection facility (?) (Entrance, lay out, flooring.) This is where 213 deaths were reported. But it happened before 21 Aug as the one vid attests.

One vid from Ghouta. (150 dead reported.) Note the differing policies of the hospitals. The markings / shrouding is not done in the same way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKJgPk1gfk8

Many vids make a mix, even the supposed ‘raw’ footage on You tube.

Locales, times, dates, it is an unholy mess. I’m seriously left wondering.

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 31, 2013 1:32:14 PM | 28

"...The President will instead provide update on his deliberations.."
Let us hope that this doesn't become a habit.

Posted by: bevin | Aug 31, 2013 1:34:56 PM | 29

"...The President will instead provide update on his deliberations.."

Is it OK for Syrians to go home now?

Posted by: dh | Aug 31, 2013 1:41:41 PM | 30

Go to

http://www.whitehouse.gov/live

Turn up the volume, one could hear anti-war protest chants.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 31, 2013 1:46:24 PM | 31

@29 Perhaps we'll have a closeup of him wringing his bloody hands...

Posted by: guest77 | Aug 31, 2013 1:50:18 PM | 32

Obama is digging in. He cannot back out of such a speech.

"I have decided the US should take military action..."

That's it. It will happen.

Posted by: guest77 | Aug 31, 2013 1:53:09 PM | 33

Nobel Peace Prize #2 coming up.....

Posted by: georgeg | Aug 31, 2013 1:53:56 PM | 34

what a fuckhead, note the cocky statement "we could act whenever I want tommorow or 1 month later".

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 31, 2013 1:55:47 PM | 35

obama live
http://live.foxnews.com/#/2553565094001

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 31, 2013 1:59:28 PM | 36

ok this sicko he will not attack Before Congress have met and approved thats for sure.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 31, 2013 2:00:14 PM | 37

He made his pitch, and took no questions. Obama is above being questioned.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 31, 2013 2:01:37 PM | 38

GOTCHA!

Obama to seek authorisation from Congress on Syria air strikes
There will be a debate and a vote "as soon as Congress comes back into session", Obama says. He says he is "confident" that he has the authority to launch strikes without that authorisation, but says the decision will be stronger with it. You might notice there is no audio on the White House's live feed right now. Earlier protesters – there is a demonstration against military action taking place in DC – could be heard in the background.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Aug 31, 2013 2:02:09 PM | 39

18) Noirette the videos are useless, they might have been taken anywhere.

Anna News claims to have filmed the battle in Jobar throughout the time of the attack:

The Syrian village (Jobar) has been occupied by elite units of the al-Nusra Front (Jabhat al-Nusra) at the end of last year.

Due to the constant fighting, the place was long abandoned by the Syrian civilians since then. At the moment, there are only rebel fighters there, no civilians.

Here, there are no Syrian women or children anymore, whose dead bodies are shown to us by the Western media today.

There are also no units of the “Free Syrian Army” (FSA) at this place, but only international terrorists of foreign al-Qaeda units as well as professional foreign mercenaries, who among other things have been trained by U.S. instructors in Jordan.

A massive 45 minutes incessant shelling has been carried out before the attack of the infantry. The foreign fighters suffered heavy losses by the fire of the Sturmartillerie (assault artillery) and they got into the danger of a complete encirclement and annihilation.

At 8 o`clock in the morning, the infantry got into direct contact with the enemy, close combats have begun at the entire front. Here, the battles are taking place within the buildings, dozens of the rebel fighters die by splinters and bullet hits.

Their desperate call to their sponsors in the West to stop the attack under any arbitrary excuse is therefore is understandable: in this case, under the pretext of alleged use of chemical weapons by the Syrian Arab Army (SAA), after the already earlier proven scheme of an intervention by UN observers.

At about 10 o`clock, the disinformation was published by the media in Saudi-Arabia, the United States and Israel that the Syrian Army units would have used weapons of mass destruction. In the first hours, the rebel fighters have, whether out of stupidity or desperation, named Jobar (Dschobar) as the area in which the chemical weapons would have been used.

We documented the entire progress of the military operation without interruption with dozens of cameras that have worked with different camera angles. Every expert is able to easily notice by the images of the explosions that the Syrian Army has only used standard ammunition.

There is no crawling smoke. Under consideration of the windy weather, the conditions under close combat and that the soldiers do not use gas masks, the soldiers and the camera team, who have filmed at the front, would themselves be severely affected by the effects of chemical warfare agents.

But there is nothing like that. This demonstrates once again the fact that the campaign in the media about chemical weapons operations of the Syrian army is a lie.

The intensity of the fighting is shown by the massive use of heavy weapons, rockets, recoilless guns, rocket launchers, grenade launchers and modern air defence weapons by the rebel fighters.

There will be more proof on the Syrian/Russian side. It does not matter, it is a pretext. They cannot argue the war otherwise but this pretext (which is silly, there is no international law of "punishment strikes" and the US does use chemical weapons on their own people like CS gas - that acturally is forbidden in warfare but not on civilians).

The chemical weapons accusations have been flying round for quite some time. Ever since Obama pronounced his "red line".

Posted by: somebody | Aug 31, 2013 2:02:16 PM | 40

Under International Law, Syria now have the lawful right to strike US according to the self defense principle.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 31, 2013 2:03:19 PM | 41

CSPAN showing a tiny "Free Syria" demo instead of the larger anti-War demo.

Echoes of the "Give War a Chance" protests ahead of the Iraq War.

Posted by: guest77 | Aug 31, 2013 2:04:25 PM | 42

He was obviously not in a good mood, almost demanding that Congress bail him out (by 'sending a message') -- for a conundrum that he has created.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 31, 2013 2:04:50 PM | 43

Looks like the brakes been put on Syria. Obama gonna get congressional authorization which pushes the deadline way back. Monday is Labor Day in the US and Wednesday he is meeting Putin so we looking at next week at the least.

Good news for Assad. Obama has already said he plans to hit command and control centres, so assume Assad is busy moving all assets to backup locations and securing all top military and political figures in safehouses. By the time Obama acts Assad should have insulated a lot of important assets to the war effort. Gives Hezbollah and Iran time to prepare a response as well.

Another great effect of the Cameron's defeat in the UK Parliament. Not only has it taken out Britain from the mix, but also shamed Obama into following the Constitution and going before his own Parliament.

Posted by: Colm O' Toole | Aug 31, 2013 2:09:04 PM | 44

CSPAN caller: "If we let this go, we're going to end up with another Hitler."

I laughed out loud.

Posted by: guest77 | Aug 31, 2013 2:11:19 PM | 45

It's an old, familiar, tired story -- Obama wanted to do the right thing, he really did, but now he's got no choice.

NPR -- "How A Reluctant Obama Ended Up Preparing For A Strike"

The devil made him do it!
Reminds me of the line from West Side Story, about the gang members --
"They're not depraved, they're deprived."
It's somebody elses fault.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 31, 2013 2:11:40 PM | 46

Obviously the Congress will vote for war otherwhise Obama wouldnt just have declared war on Syria.

Now its time for Syria to make up their plans..

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 31, 2013 2:11:48 PM | 47

@45 Oh, I guess I should specify: the caller was referring to Assad. Had she been referring to the US she may have had a point.

Posted by: guest77 | Aug 31, 2013 2:12:27 PM | 48

@43 He definitely looked grumpy. Still doing the tough guy act I think but quietly hoping Congress will get him off the hook.

Posted by: dh | Aug 31, 2013 2:12:43 PM | 49

@guest77
CSPAN caller: "If we let this go, we're going to end up with another Hitler."

It's Godwin's Law

On the Internet, there is a dictum known as "Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies," coined in 1990 by a man named Mike Godwin. This law holds that "as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1." Anyone who has spent time on political discussion boards can see that it's true; in any charged debate (abortion, Iraq, Israel, foreign policy), it's only a matter of time before someone compares his opponent to Hitler.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 31, 2013 2:14:05 PM | 50

49 addendum. Come to think of it he wins either way.....if Congress vote for an attack he can blame them.

Posted by: dh | Aug 31, 2013 2:15:20 PM | 51

Obviously the Congress will vote for war

Not so fast, please. There's many a slip twixt cup and lip.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 31, 2013 2:16:09 PM | 52

"The video coming out of young children crying..."

Wow. Fourth generation war at its finest. Bandar and Netanyahu must be really patting themselves on the back over this.

Posted by: guest77 | Aug 31, 2013 2:17:19 PM | 53

well, to be fair, cspan showed all the demos...but as usual the depths of IGNORANCE displayed by their onair callers is abysmal...
my local laborday "celebration" has been cancelled...o ja i'm a US'an
awrite, yoo betcha!

Posted by: bfrakes | Aug 31, 2013 2:18:06 PM | 54

Don Bacon

Why would he declare war if he not know that Congress, which he need approval at, wouldnt support him. That makes no sense.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 31, 2013 2:18:40 PM | 55

Saw a headline on bbc "Obama hampered by awkward timing"

It referred to something called "Labor Day"

Silly me, I thought it might have mentioned that Sept 1st is the anniversary of the start of WW2

Posted by: hmm | Aug 31, 2013 2:20:00 PM | 56

@7

you missed my point. Kerry said "we know THE rockets" and everyone ASSUMED he meant THE rockets that delivered sarin gas. but he never SAID that.
you fell for it, too!

if the US had proof that sarin gas was delivered by certain rockets, we'd have physical parts in our hands. we don't. it's pure rhetoric, and apparently very clever. some rockets fell. the US can probably figure out details about some rockets falling. but talking about them in the same speech with poisoned victims is designed to make everyone think the US means that it knew what was in certain rockets and verified the oontents. if they had, they would have put it in a museum, but instead they are just suggesting it without actually saying it so they aren't technically lying but everyone is hearing it as intended.

it's still lying to me. Colin Powell did it too, and he knew he was doing it.

Posted by: anon | Aug 31, 2013 2:21:26 PM | 57

Did you notice how he almost used the "either you are against us or with us"-bush line?

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 31, 2013 2:24:03 PM | 58

What is amazing is the way that the debate was completely narrowed down to if it is right to carry out the attack or not. The underlying assumptions - Kerry's "We Know"s - are taken at face value despite our recent experience with Iraq and the emergence of NSA spying.

Chomsky & Herman's propaganda theory holds, though it should be updated to include the effects of social media and it's effects on "sources" and "flak".

Posted by: guest77 | Aug 31, 2013 2:27:47 PM | 59

51) Sure everybody now has to confess and can't blame him afterwards when things go wrong. Will be difficult for people intending to be contenders for the next presidential election.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 31, 2013 2:32:43 PM | 60

There is actually a parallel situation between Syria and Afghanistan.

In Afghanistan the US has knowingly aided the resistance to the Afghan government by financially supporting the Taliban both directly in Afghanistan (diverted contract funds) and via Pakistan despite a US assessment in 2009 that the Taliban is directly supported by Pakistan.

In Syria, the US has allowed, and even encouraged, US allies Qatar and Saudi Arabia to fund anti-Syria fighters, as well as providing direct financial and military aid to them.

In both cases the US is supporting people -- "insurgents" -- it claims to be against because they are extremists. US enemies. (US enemies are always extremists.)

Of course one difference is that the US has threatened to bomb the Syria government and not Afghanistan because Syria is an Iran ally and Afghanistan isn't, yet.

This is why Obama can't talk strategy, at least one reason.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 31, 2013 2:36:32 PM | 61

Another difference is of course that that Zio-nazi Israelis are heavily involved in the War on Syria

Posted by: hmm | Aug 31, 2013 2:40:01 PM | 62

Another piece on Ghouta, h/t Pat Lang.
Dave Gavlak is a woman? (see footnote)

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 31, 2013 2:41:39 PM | 63

somebody @ 40. I agree that much is fake, strange, arranged, etc.

But that the vids. could have been taken anywhere is not so. There is a lot of info but it is hard to analyze.

For CW attacks Syria few outside persons have tried to sort it out from the raw video up. I made some small, amateur, stab, not finished, though doubt I will post again here about that.

The details don’t interest. Ppl’s minds are made up. They take sides.

To conclude, without the details, the pressure of supposed, alleged, or real or partly so, CW attacks in Syria, and the vague supporting evidence grew over time, to then explode exactly after a year when Obiman pontificated about the red line.

Without solid evidence for CW attacks at all. As said before, the previous alleged attacks were far better documented, yet ignored, and not investigated.

These things take time. The evidence, such as it is, only serves one or another political faction. The game is who can impose their scenario. The facts matter not at all.

But some ppl are interested in the crude facts.

Here is one vid. Aleppo, March, pro-Assad.

Each side accuses the other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nac9zdGTOOo

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 31, 2013 2:41:52 PM | 64

It's a pity that hasbara-boy zomebody is unwilling to apply his scarce critical thinking facilities to "evidence" he claims indicts hezb and the Syrian gov

His selective application of critical thinking is curious, to say the least

Posted by: hmm | Aug 31, 2013 2:48:32 PM | 65

Obama: I can break the law bigger than you can, so there.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 31, 2013 2:58:31 PM | 66

Kerry:

The Arab League pledged, quote, “to hold the Syrian regime fully responsible for this crime.”

Anadolu
Arab FMs to meet Sunday on Syria crisis

The Arab League has brought forward a planned Arab foreign ministers' meeting devoted to discussing the Syria crisis from Tuesday to Sunday.

Arab League Deputy Secretary-General Ahmed bin Heli said the meeting had been brought forward based on a request by Arab countries and consultations by Arab League chief Nabil al-Arabi with both Egypt (current chair of the Arab League Council) and Libya (the incoming council chair).

According to bin Heli, Arab delegates will convene before the ministerial meeting in order to set the meeting's agenda, which will include several issues concerning joint Arab action.

Meanwhile, a high-level source in the Arab League Secretariat-General denied that the pan-Arab body had endorsed a proposed US military strike against Syria.

Al-Arabi, the source added, has stressed the necessity of taking the issue before the UN Security Council before taking any decision.

A final decision will be taken during the league's upcoming foreign ministers' meeting, the source said, adding that an earlier league decision prohibited foreign military intervention in Syria "without the approval of the Security Council."

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 31, 2013 3:08:27 PM | 67

64) It is the worst type of unconventional war. Probably tear gas mixtures get used. Sarin type chemical weapons do not make sense in close combat in residential areas. The US left a completely toxic legacy in Falludja they need a huge blind spot to have this "moral" discussion now on Syria.
Possibly the subject is hyped to pressure Syria into giving up their deterrence against Israel - analogous to Iran's potential nuclear weapons though I don't think they need chemical weapons to deter Israel.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 31, 2013 3:10:57 PM | 68

Right on time - Hasbara boy arrives with yet another post, in a loooooooong line of Zio-Nazi bullshit posts, to inform us how scared the poor little zio-nazis must be

Not only are the poor little dears facing dastardly Iranian (non-existant) [potential?] Nuclear Weapons, but they also have to face Evil Assad's "deterrence against Israel" ( a sly and dishonest reference to CBW's)

Can a sly oblique bullshit reference to "The hollycaust"®™ be far behind?

Posted by: hmm | Aug 31, 2013 3:31:21 PM | 69

The issue with Obama's speech is entirely an American one. Was it ever otherwise?

It's an interesting decision by Obama.

In principle, close to 100% of congressmen are committed to supporting Israel, but public opinion polls don't pass 20% for support of an attack.
It's a question how best to interpret the incongruity. The conventional interpretation would be that the war motion would pass without problem. Within Washington AIPAC wins. In the country it doesn't.

I have no doubt that Obama knows what he is doing. In a way it is very subtle. A way to rid himself of Israeli influence. If Congress votes against war, he can point to that; if they vote for war, there could be a revolt in the states against the Congressmen elected. Evidently Obama himself will suffer from a lost vote.

I admit that I don't know enough about American politics, but the answer is there. The true situation in the Middle East is not interesting for Americans, rather how it will play in the States. Obama's speech has to be seen in this context

Posted by: alexno | Aug 31, 2013 3:46:06 PM | 70

@70 It probably won't be a vote for or against war per se. More likely it will be framed as a 'limited strike' or 'use of force'. There are subtle differences which will make for some interesting political acrobatics.

Posted by: dh | Aug 31, 2013 3:51:03 PM | 71

Noirette #17, #28, #64

Your comments and observations are very useful. I have collected them here:
http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack,_August_21,_2013/Noirette

(Our wiki is back on-line after yet another attack today.)

somebody #40 is right, the videos do not prove anything. That is just the point; there are no videos with evidence of a CW rocket attack. If the people are dead, they were most likely killed in yet another hostage massacre!

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Aug 31, 2013 4:11:09 PM | 72

AIPAC ties Syria to Iran, making it difficult for congress-critters to represent US citizens when they vote on Syria.

As we witness unthinkable horror in Syria, the urgency of stopping Iran’s nuclear ambitions is paramount. We cannot allow Assad to operate with the support of his greatest ally in Tehran backed by a nuclear weapons capability. The Islamic Republic is already expanding its influence throughout the region, moving military equipment and resources into Syria and Lebanon. Now is the time to increase the pressure on the Iranian regime, and the U.S. must quickly and measurably test Iranian President Rouhani’s determination to bring about a diplomatic solution to the nuclear dispute.

In July, the House passed the Nuclear Iran Prevention Act of 2013 (H.R. 850) by an overwhelmingly bipartisan vote of 400-20, which will strengthen enforcement of current U.S. sanctions on Iran. The new legislation will expand sanctions targeting Iran’s human rights violations, and, for the first time, specifically authorize the president to impose sanctions on any entity that maintains significant commercial ties to Iran.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 31, 2013 4:11:14 PM | 73

Text of Obama's speech on Syria.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 31, 2013 4:27:27 PM | 74

So, among the Americans here, who can tell me whether Congressmen will choose their AIPAC commitments over and above their commitments to their voters? It's an interesting question that Obama has posed.

Posted by: alexno | Aug 31, 2013 4:30:34 PM | 75

@72

somebody #40 is right, the videos do not prove anything. That is just the point; there are no videos with evidence of a CW rocket attack. If the people are dead, they were most likely killed in yet another hostage massacre!

Zomebody already knows that their is no evidence, videoed or otherwise, that supports claims of a CB rocket attack

Hasn't stopped him lying and making-shit-up about Syrian gov culpability though, has it?

Posted by: hmm | Aug 31, 2013 4:49:25 PM | 76

CB should be "CW rocket attack"

Posted by: hmm | Aug 31, 2013 4:52:45 PM | 77

john kerry aka kohn *does* know something: He will, no matter what, do his israeli masters bidding.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Aug 31, 2013 5:33:41 PM | 78

@75
congress always does AIPAC's bidding. as with all lobbies and caucuses, they do it against the wishes of their voters. the Israel caucus consists of 100% of congress.
most textbook fascism is a one-party system in control of private corporations. ours is a one-party system in control of the private corporations which is taking more and more power and money, but it has two faces: "democrat" and "republican". the two parties collude together against the people in a divide-and-rule method where the division is over ANYTHING THAT CORPORATIONS DON'T CARE ABOUT. such as religion, gays, abortion, but NOTHING that matters to what PEOPLE WOULD GET FROM A GOVERNMENT IN A DECENT DEMOCRACY.
it will continue to get worse. on behalf of my f-ing country, I apologize to the rest of the world. I am truly sorry.

Posted by: anon | Aug 31, 2013 11:36:10 PM | 79

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