Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 22, 2013

The I-P Negotiation Scam

May 19, 2011 - Obama Sees ’67 Borders as Starting Point for Peace Deal
Mr. Obama declared that the prevailing borders before the 1967 Arab-Israeli war — adjusted to some degree to account for Israeli settlements in the West Bank — should be the basis of a deal. While the 1967 borders have long been viewed as the foundation for a peace agreement, Mr. Obama’s formula of land swaps to compensate for disputed territory created a new benchmark for a diplomatic solution.
July 20, 2013 - Palestinian officials say Kerry gave guarantees that 1967 borders are basis for new talks
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas agreed to resume peace talks with Israel only after U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry gave him a letter guaranteeing that the basis of the negotiations will be Israel’s pre-1967 borders, two senior Palestinian officials said Saturday.

A Western official, however, later denied that the ‘67 lines would be the basis of negotiations.

So Obama, for once, actually did what he said? The "Western official" in the above is likely an Israeli. The article later refers to an "U.S. official" distinguishing it from the "Western official" source. The Israeli may be lying. But what did Kerry guarantee or not?

July 22, 2013 - Analysis: How Netanyahu averted coalition crisis

Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu succeeded in preventing his governing coalition from unraveling over the weekend following the announcement of forthcoming negotiations with the Palestinian Authority.

Netanyahu kept Bayit Yehudi leader Naftali Bennett satisfied by receiving a commitment from the Americans that they would not say the talks would be based on pre-1967 borders.

It seems to me that Kerry (and Obama) are giving each side diverging promises. That shows that they are not serious about finding any solution. The scam of negotiations between the two already very unequal sides continues with the U.S. putting its weight as always on the already too strong side of the Israelis. Meanwhile the colonizing of Palestine continues.

Posted by b on July 22, 2013 at 02:20 PM | Permalink


So is Obama speaking out of one side of Kerry's mouth and Kerry the other?
Or does Kerry speak out of both sides of his mouth?
Either way Yankee promises, written or not, aren't worth the paper they're written on (or not).

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 22, 2013 3:33:29 PM | 1

When Putin refers to Yankees as "partners" everyone except Obama and Kerry knows he's joking.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 22, 2013 3:40:20 PM | 2

Since the Jerusalem Post often reads like a warmed over press release from the Foreign Ministry and the Washington Post is heavily influenced by the Israel Lobby, both reports should be consumed with salt shaker at hand. Kerry is playing his cards very close to his vest at this point, so the unnamed US official and the unnamed Palestinian official may not even know what Kerry has offered the Palestinians. Right now, he just seems to be trying to get both sides to the negotiating table. If he can't even offer the Palestinians that the US believes that negotiations should start at the 67 borders, I can't imagine what would entice them to put their UN and ICC plans on ice for another 9 months.

Posted by: Rusty Pipes | Jul 22, 2013 5:22:23 PM | 3

I think it’s a mistake to take “Kerry’s breakthrough” at all seriously. It’s just a media stunt. Netanyahu’s motivation to pay lip service to the “two state solution” is just that of playing for time. Israel’s strategy on the international stage regarding the Palestinians has always been to play for time, while the “facts on the ground” continue to advance. That is why you have this particular balance between top leadership saying yes and lower leadership saying no. It allows the Likud-led coalition to retain the confidence of its electorate, which overwhelmingly dismisses any idea of a Palestinian state, and increasingly feels that it doesn’t matter what the rest of the world thinks, because Israel has enough power to do what it pleases. And it saves the appearances on the international level, where I feel quite certain that no one takes it seriously, not Kerry, not Bibi and not Mahmoud Abbas.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 22, 2013 5:24:11 PM | 4

Forget the movies... oscars should have been awarded long ago to the play-acting pols!

Posted by: crone | Jul 22, 2013 5:30:15 PM | 5

It's good to update the Balfour Declaration periodicly.

Posted by: dh | Jul 22, 2013 5:31:44 PM | 6

Is Israel's Piece Process (a perfect example of Jewish humour and the 20th Century's sickest joke) destined to carry over to the 21st Century as well?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 22, 2013 5:43:00 PM | 7

The U.S. routinely considers Israel's interests to be more important than any U.S. state even. The U.S. continually says and demonstrates that there are no differences or disagreements with Israel.

The U.S. has fought any recognition of Palestine. The "no" votes, Nov 29, 2012: Canada, Czech Rep, Israel, Marshall Isl, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau, Panama, US

And yet we're supposed to believe that the U.S. could be an honest broker on I/P?
Actually, if one looks at the shrinking "P" areas on the map, which are continually shrinking, one must conclude that only a one-state solution is possible. It will happen eventually, and it will be ruled by Arabs. Israel will disappear.

So, as stated above, this is only media hype. How many times has it happened already?

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 22, 2013 5:44:34 PM | 8

Irrefutable evidence that these negotiations will be an exercise in futility: the NY Times reports that Martin Indak has been tabbed as the lead mediator.

Netanyahu may have agreed to this pretense in an effort to defer American & European condemnation of the forced displacement of Bedouins in the Negev. At least 30,000 Bedouins will be removed from their homes, and an estimated 40 Bedouin villages will be destroyed. This marks the first time Israel has displaced part of its Bedouin population.

Regarding the placement of Hezbollah on the EU blacklist: Hezbollah recently disclosed the name of head of CIA operations in Beirut, as well as the names of other CIA operatives. (Hezbollah acquired this info through a double agent). The Obama Administration may have pressed for this in response.

Hezbollah may have outed CIA operatives in response to suspected Israeli involvement in a recent car bombing in a Beirut suburb. The website Debka recently implied (rather artfully) that Israel may be responsible for the bombing. (See the last two paragraphs of this article).

Posted by: Harper Langston | Jul 22, 2013 6:10:50 PM | 9

Actually, I think the Americans are playing this pretty straight.

Note that the 2nd report mentions that Kerry gave Abbas a letter saying that the talks WILL start from the 1967 lines, whereas the 3rd report merely has the Americans committing to the Israelis that nobody will rub their noses in it.

Those two reports are not *actually* mutually-exclusive:
1) Kerry can give Abbas those assurances in writing (But You Must Not Say It!)
2) Kerry can also tell Netanyahu "It's the 1967 Lines, dude" (But We Won't Say That!).

(1) and (2) don't actually contradict each other, but the obvious downside to that latter commitment is that it leads the field wide open for Israeli (oops, sorry, "western sources") to crow that Black Is White, Up is Down, Left is Right and Kerry can't say anything to the contrary.

Posted by: Johnboy | Jul 22, 2013 6:33:59 PM | 10

@HL #9
Indyk hasn't been tabbed as yet, he's a candidate.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 22, 2013 6:54:42 PM | 11

MW takes Martin Indyk apart here.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 22, 2013 6:59:53 PM | 12

George Washington warned Americans against alliances with foreign nations… he was the first but certainly not the last to do so. Here are excerpts from his Farewell Address:

“… [Page 23]

In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent inveterate antipathies against particular Nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded; and that in place of them just & amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The Nation, which indulges towards another an habitual hatred, or an habitual fondness, is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one Nation against another–disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable, when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence frequent collisions, obstinate envenomed and bloody contests. The Nation, prompted by ill will & resentment sometimes impels to War the Government, contrary to the best calculations of policy. The Government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject; at other times, it makes the animosity of the Nation subservient to projects of hostility instigated by pride, ambition and other sinister & pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the Liberty, of Nations has been the victim. [return to top]

[Page 24]

So likewise, a passionate attachment of one Nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favourite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest, in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels & Wars of the latter, without adequate inducement or justification: It leads also to concessions to the favourite Nation of priviledges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the Nation making the concessions–by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained–& by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom eql priviledges are withheld: And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favourite Nation) facility to betray, or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition corruption or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent Patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper [return to top]

[Page 25]

with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public Councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak, towards a great & powerful Nation, dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter.

Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence, (I conjure you to believe me fellow citizens,), the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake; since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of Republican Government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defence against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another, cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real Patriots, who may resist the intriegues of the favourite, are liable to become suspected and odious; while its tools and dupes usurp the applause & confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.

The Great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign Nations is in extending our comercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled, [return to top]

[Page 26]

with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.”

Posted by: crone | Jul 22, 2013 8:09:37 PM | 13

@11: "Indyk hasn't been tabbed as yet, he's a candidate"

They are probably waiting to see if Dennis Ross puts his hand up, in which case they dump the Aussie shill who puts Israel first and go with the American Shill who puts Israel first, last, and everywhere in between.

Posted by: Johnboy | Jul 22, 2013 9:04:22 PM | 14

"30,000 Bedouins will be removed from their homes"

Really unbelievable if you didn't know about all the other unbelievable crimes.

If any other country tried something like this, they'd be discussed as a potential candidate for a brutal R2P'ing.

If you use the "Israeli to American Population Victim Ratio" that was so popular during the 2002 rash of suicide bombings, that's like ethnically cleansing some 1.5 million people.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 22, 2013 9:09:53 PM | 15

The UN Human Rights Council has adopted more resolutions condemning Israel than it has all other states combined.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 22, 2013 9:28:14 PM | 16

Fucking awful.

Marketing 'no-blacks' apartment buildings in Tel Aviv

Amid efforts to deport, imprison and segregate African asylum seekers in Israel, real estate agents are now marketing ‘clean’ apartment blocs, meaning no foreign workers or asylum seekers will live there.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 22, 2013 10:14:42 PM | 17

Apparently redlining isn't just for Americans any more.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 22, 2013 11:15:42 PM | 18

I said "playing for time," but the correct phrase is "getting past September":

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 22, 2013 11:31:49 PM | 19

On the other hand, Abbas can use September (UNGA meetings) as a club to force Netanyahoo to talk seriously (about what I haven't a clue). Abbas says that otherwise "all options are open."

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 22, 2013 11:53:48 PM | 20

Oh goody! More I/P peace talks. (Yawn) Oh, but, this time will be different. NOT!

Posted by: ben | Jul 23, 2013 12:08:22 AM | 21

Israeli violations of U.N. Security Council Resolutions listed here.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 23, 2013 12:15:26 AM | 22

The Israeli position is for a "Greater Israel," the territory of the State of Israel and the Palestinian territories, the territory of the former British Mandate of Palestine. However, because of the controversial nature of the term, the term Land of Israel is used.--wiki

The Israeli position on borders goes back to UNSC Res 242 which included:

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."

The Israeli position: Israel, in any future agreement with the Palestinians, has a critical need for defensible borders in order to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.

As this video shows, Israel's "defensible borders" coincide with Palestine's plus the airspace above it.
"Israel's Critical Security Needs for a Viable Peace"

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 23, 2013 12:19:46 AM | 23

The Jews will negotiate hard, they will not give up a centimeter without some hard, hard bargaining. It's incredible that it takes a global effort to make them move an inch. Even in light of the fact that this is mostly stolen property!!
Their brazenness knows no end, CABRONES israelitas!

Posted by: Fernando | Jul 23, 2013 1:34:18 AM | 24

@24 Agreed, the Israelis negotiate on the basis of not-giving-an-inch.

But "negotiating hard" is not at all the same thing as "negotiating wisely".

After all, if the Israelis get their way then the end result of any *agreement* that a "hard-nosed Israel" would be willing to sign will produce a non-viable Palestine, which pretty much guarantees that Israel will have a Somalia-type situation on their doorstep.

And - let's face it - doesn't sound too wise to me.

The dictum of "cutting off your nose to spite your face" rather springs to mind.

Posted by: Johnboy | Jul 23, 2013 2:32:44 AM | 25

just 3 to 6 hundred km off topic but the chair of the Joints Chief of Staff has just advised the US to stay out of the Syrian civil war:

It is a sad day that rational Americans have to rely on the US military for good advice on how to conduct foreign policy. But to come completely back OT there is this ex-marine offering even better advice to Kerry:

The US has sunk to an incredible low when the most rational analysts in positions of power are in the military. It is true that there is are precedents such as Admiral Dewey after the Spanish war and the often quoted Marine General Butler about US aggression against Central American during the early 20th century. But why is it that Democrats are the worse imperial war mongers among the bunch?

Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 23, 2013 2:44:04 AM | 26

It is a sad day that rational Americans have to rely on the US military for good advice on how to conduct foreign (and domestic?) policy.

Imo, there'll be a military coup in the US within 18 months (+/- 6 months).
The entire US military has been outrageously and abusively sacrificed on the altar of Mammon for more than 50 years. If they don't make a stand soon there'll be more walking wounded and other abandoned basket cases than 'whole' people.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 23, 2013 3:34:57 AM | 27


It is good to see your change of mind.
I remember awfully biased comments from you on RFI against Iran , defending the US- ZOG agenda.

Posted by: Sufi | Jul 23, 2013 3:38:19 AM | 28

its all very very low key ,hush hush,need to know,underground,below decks and top secret .by stealth they fly below the radar and then they strike .
who do I refer to,well none other than the flying black hat.

Posted by: jub | Jul 23, 2013 6:22:02 AM | 29

Israel's "right to live in peace"?

Hmm. Maybe it should be the Palestinians turn to live in peace.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 23, 2013 9:50:07 AM | 30

These "negotiations" make me wonder whatever happened to that investigation into the cause of Yasser Arafat's death?

This is also, if anyone has any links, a perfect time to review the revelations, in the Guardian some months ago, of the detail of the Erekat-Abbas negotiating team's basic list of demands. As I recall they added up to "carve out a couple of estates for us. Throw a billion bucks into our bank accounts. And do what the fuck you want with the place. But first bomb Gaza, in revenge for what they did to our friend Dahlan."

Posted by: bevin | Jul 23, 2013 10:48:27 AM | 31

Credit to the EU.

Reportedly there is a new European Union directive concerning EU funding for entities established beyond the 1967 border lines including the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. It covers grants, prizes or financial instruments which may be awarded to Israeli entities or to their activities in the territories occupied by Israel since June 1967. It doesn't cover trade.

In a broadcast statementon Tuesday evening , Binyamin Netanyahu said: "As prime minister of Israel, I will not allow the hundreds of thousands of Israelis who live in the West Bank, Golan Heights and our united capital Jerusalem to be harmed. We will not accept any external diktats about our borders. This matter will only be settled in direct negotiations between the parties."

Times of Israel, Jul 18 (excerpts)

The EU does not recognise Israel’s sovereignty over any of the territories referred to in point 2 and does not consider them to be part of Israel’s territory, irrespective of their legal status under domestic Israeli law. The EU has made it clear that it will not recognise any changes to pre-1967 borders, other than those agreed by the parties to the Middle East Peace Process (MEPP). The EU’s Foreign Affairs Council has underlined the importance of limiting the application of agreements with Israel to the territory of Israel as recognised by the EU.

These guidelines apply to EU support in the form of grants, prizes or financial instruments within the meaning of Titles VI, VII and VIII of the Financial Regulation which may be awarded to Israeli entities or to their activities in the territories occupied by Israel since June 1967. Their application is without prejudice to specific eligibility conditions which may be laid down in the relevant basic act.

This directive is not available at the EU website, it was leaked to Israel and to media sources. The UN often does the same.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 23, 2013 11:07:14 AM | 32

That is impossible, the military in the USA is very much under the thumb of the civilians. No señor, the only way this could happen, maybe is if a big time social cataclysm takes place and the central govt is unable to make a decision. I believe that is what happened with Mr. Kennedy, that poor bastardo was taken down by the military for his perceived ineptness in prosecuting the war in Cuba and then the war in Vietnam.
If the massive amounts of disaffected and unemployed rise up as they very well should. For example look at what happened after Zimmerman was exonerated of his murder of Trayvon, hundreds of people protested.
If this got repeated, more injustice, police begin to lose control.
The military gets called in.
The Boston scenario gets repeated where the city is shut down by the authorities.
Peaceful protesters are crushed more violent extemists rise.
More killings.
The president is taken into protective custody.
An interim council takes control.
Congress is already split in the middle.
Part of the military, the loyalists attempt to reinstall the president.
All hell breaks loose.
Mama mia.
Israel, Saudi Arabia loses it's protector,
It's payback time bitch.

Posted by: Fernando | Jul 23, 2013 11:11:17 AM | 33

Netanyahoo: ". . .united capital Jerusalem"

Reminds me of Senator Obama's speech to AIPAC when he had his campaign kneepads on, Jun 4, 2008.

Let me be clear. Israel's security is sacrosanct. It is non-negotiable. The Palestinians need a state that is contiguous and cohesive, and that allows them to prosper — but any agreement with the Palestinian people must preserve Israel's identity as a Jewish state, with secure, recognized and defensible borders. Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 23, 2013 11:12:49 AM | 34

How I hate that man, Nutjobyahoo, his brain is divided.

Posted by: Fernando | Jul 23, 2013 12:02:43 PM | 35

fernando 33

keep an eye on what happens to Detroit. There are many places in the US in deep doodoo like that. The question is do those state county and city governments dump their employees or put their residents on the hook for the employees.

don 34 that statement by bibi is the Holyland problem in a nutshell; you can't have one state solution because you can't have a Jewish state with 'others' and the 'Pals' can't have a state because its not contigous and cohesive (because the Israelis have prevented that) so yeah.....

Posted by: heath | Jul 23, 2013 12:47:34 PM | 36

Kind of like the US negotiating with the Native Americans toward a two-state solution.

There was a piece on MW a while back with a historical perspective, indicating that when outside people take over a territory they must (mostly) exterminate the natives in order to prevail. That's what happened in the US.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 23, 2013 1:07:51 PM | 37

off topic, but nevertheless very important:

for all of you and exsp. the Holy Grail of The Ayatollah Followers (HGAF) here, in german and english:

Please stand up against the new rise of killings in Iran

Posted by: thomas | Jul 23, 2013 1:16:43 PM | 38

@thomas | Jul 23, 2013 1:16:43 PM

Are you joking , man ?
Mina Ahadi is a convicted murderer and a PJAK terrorist ,are you interested in her history ?

Posted by: Sufi | Jul 23, 2013 1:34:41 PM | 39

are you joking man? convicted by the Ayatollah murderer clique (AMC)? man, become serious and grow up, I still remember the times when all my CISNU comrades were declared traitors and terrorists by the shah and many of them murdered, later also by the AMC

Posted by: thomas | Jul 23, 2013 1:41:10 PM | 40


The best 'coup' this person landed , was her laughable Sakineh Ashtiani 'stoning case ' , the time for murderers like Mina Ahadi is over , the world is awakened !

Posted by: Sufi | Jul 23, 2013 1:50:27 PM | 41

@ 39.
Based in London? AKA a 1 person Iranian Observatory for Human Rights?
Coincidence? Much?
Assuming there's a factual basis for her claims, how do these examples of Iranian justice-for-Iranians compare with the 'justice' meted out to "other peoples people" by Israel and the US?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 23, 2013 2:00:32 PM | 42


Facts are that since the aggression war of the US against Afghanistan , the opium production in AFG increased from 200 MT in 2001 to around 10 000 MT today.
As a result there are about 10 000 drug related deaths in Iran and around 50 000 in Russia and it is the declared aim of the US/UK/ISR in AFG of kill as much as possible Iranians and Russians and they are damned successful.
Iran lost around 4000 soldiers and police forces in their struggle to contain to drug flow from AFG to Iran , if there was no capital punishment the drug deaths would rise to tens of thousands , this is the bitter truth and I am only scratching the surface , there is a lot , lot more into this issue.

Posted by: Sufi | Jul 23, 2013 2:13:58 PM | 43

The issue imo is a non-issue.

The israelis will "negotiate" only if forced to and then only to win time. zusa will "moderate" by pushing with extreme pro-israel bias. And in the end there will be no peace. For simple reason: Of all things peace is the one israel never wanted, never wants, never will.

The reason to the non-issue, more precisely the trigger, lies in Syria. While for zusa a "let them live, albeit in very modest and toughly (if nedded brutally) controlled circumstances" might be achievable, concerning israel there is only one solution, termination. Being at that, any long-term solution re. zusa must necessarily include to ship all israel-friends and double citizens to their beloved home country israel - before terminating it, that is.

By termination I mean: Relocating israels citizens and fans to some peace of land in neighbouring cheap whore jordania, establishing a tough control regime supported by reliable forces from Iran and others, not allowing any leaving of the new israel zone, severely punishing israelis who burn down houses, orchards, etc. in israel or similar, handing over all of Palestine to Palestinians, pay with israel wealth for damages compensation and establishing of a free Palestine.

The means to reach that? Further demise of zusa and some Iskanders in Syria.

Anything less won't do. If israel - and their scum in zusa - isn't brutally broken and crippled, zusa has no chance whatsoever. If zusa isn't broken in at least 5 pieces, forced to become civilized (but insignificant) members of humanity, and severely punished and made to compensate for what it has done to the world, the world has no chance.

Going that hard route among those to considerably profit will be the americans themselves that is, the (I guess) 80% - 90% who are primitive, lousily educated (if at all) and without any significant culture and socialization.
I might sound excessively friendly and benevolent, I know, but I think that we must be fair enough to see that americans basically had no chance to become members of civilized humanity under their regimes of the past 50 -70 years.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Jul 23, 2013 2:19:16 PM | 44


Of course "The reason to the non-issue ..." at the beginning of the third paragraph (in post 44) was an error.

Correct: "The solution to the non-issue ..."


Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Jul 23, 2013 2:24:48 PM | 45


Considering how frequently I/P discussions are highjacked elsewhere on the web, an entirely unrelated post about Iran could be perceived as more than off-topic. Are you familiar with the purpose of an Open Thread?

Posted by: Rusty Pipes | Jul 23, 2013 2:45:21 PM | 46

Apologies, Of course "The reason to the non-issue ..." at the beginning of the third paragraph (in post 44) was an error. Correct: "The solution to the non-issue ..." Sorry. Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Jul 23, 2013 2:24:48 PM | 45
I'm glad to see I'm not the only person who is unable to follow your complex and sardonic mode of expression, Mr P.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 23, 2013 2:49:55 PM | 47

Now that entity calling itself "Mr Pragma" becomes openly racist, this time against the so-called "americans":

"Going that hard route among those to considerably profit will be the americans themselves that is, the (I guess) 80% - 90% who are primitive, lousily educated (if at all) and without any significant culture and socialization."

As I already stated in the Navalny thread about "Mr Pragma": "@17: bullshit is very healthy, I think what we really have to fear is pragma - shit. poisonous discharge of an authoritarian and dictatorian small intellect, not caring for any observation of the rules of law"

I feel sorry for any commenter on this website still engaging with this entity and thereby damaging the reputation of MoA

Posted by: thomas | Jul 23, 2013 2:52:35 PM | 48

@46: my dear rusty, the israel / palastine issue and the newest dev there is really nothing new, but just boring, has been put through the mills over and over again, whereas other issues like the undiscriminate hanging and killing in and around Teheran doesn't get any attention, here and in other pipes

Posted by: thomas | Jul 23, 2013 3:03:58 PM | 49

Now, thomas,

that you've explained it, I understand it. Thanks.

So, it is not racist to mass-murder "ragheads" (not my term but the americans) and to piss on their dead bodies? But it is racist to call "80% -90% of the americans" primitive, even when not picking out e.g. blacks but talking generally, and even when mentioning that it's not their fault that they aren't guilty but their rotten regimes?

I see.

Let me guess: You consider it racist, too, when someone hates the israeli mass murderers but you do not consider it racist when israelis mass murder Palestinians?

No answers needed, thanks.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Jul 23, 2013 3:09:11 PM | 50

@Mr. P "Of all things peace is the one israel never wanted, never wants, never will."

This is exactly what the content of the leaks made to Al Jazeera not long ago showed. Everyone in the world knows this of course, only the United States is as dishonest enough to pretend otherwise.

Expecting the Israelis to engage is a "peace process" with the US as broker that clearly will not apply even the slightest amount of pressure upon them is without a doubt the most distasteful joke going in international relations.

That any entity with the nerve to call itself "Palestinian" that engages in such talks is clearly, as Bevin points out, merely hoping, at best, for a personal payoff.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 23, 2013 4:01:53 PM | 51

@Mr. P "Of all things peace is the one israel never wanted, never wants, never will."

dear mr p

my cousins who live in Israel want peace ,so does my friend itzik.itzik has a Palestinian working for him and he also wants peace,where do you live in Israel ?
mr p
seriously where do you live.because if it is not in Israel or the west bank or gaza then maybe you should use your resources to promote peace-the right kind-in fact I have met some amazing people doing just that lately

as to your "Israeli mass murder" comment I could not agree more its just a pity that the Israelis just don,t have the balls like the americans or germans or Russians or brits or turks or japs or Australians or[......]to do the job properly and just finish it once and all."bomb the ragheads back to the stone ages" like in the movies

because that's the kind of peace the Israelis do not want-

mr P (eace) or is it (piece)

Posted by: jub (aipac rep.bolivia) | Jul 23, 2013 6:12:52 PM | 52

Israel (country) does not equal Israeli (citizen).

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 23, 2013 6:25:51 PM | 53

@51, peace schmeace. Vanity states are not going to happen.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 23, 2013 6:35:58 PM | 54

I know, I know, israel is full of peace-loving itziks who treat Palestinians well and as equal citizens.

For some strange reasons, however, there must somewhere be secret reservoirs of people who mass murder Palestinians and even kill children.

How to explain that? Are there after all secret Nazi garrisons in israel who do the mass murdering wearing israel uniforms? And sharon, netanyahu, meir, and all the other faschist mass murderers, are they after all peace-loving peace-loving fine democrats who were tricked by Nazi look-alikes?

It seems so because as we just have been explained (for the 3.000th time ...) israel is populated by peace loving palestinian loving itziks.

But why do I get complaints when I demand some "peace-loving" for israel? Is israeli peace-loving after all something bad or maybe even (mass) killing?

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Jul 23, 2013 6:36:08 PM | 55

Hoarsewhispher @ 7 -- Re: Israeli Piece Process.

Here a piece of Palestine, there a piece, and some pieces...and pretty soon Israel controls another access to an important acquifer....

Posted by: jawbone | Jul 23, 2013 10:53:03 PM | 56

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Jul 23, 2013 6:36:08 PM | 54

mr pragma

what about the 2002-2006 suicide bombings in Israel -were they also mass killings

sbarro restaurant bombing

Response and activism of victims' families[edit]

In 2001, the family of Malka Chana (Malki) Roth, a 15-year-old victim of the attack, founded The Malki Foundation, a charity organization that supports families of children with disabilities. All services and equipment are provided at no cost to the families. People of all religions and backgrounds are eligible for assistance.[38] The organization is a memorial to Malka Roth's life.[39] Later, Malka's parents, Arnold and Frimet Roth, participated in a mass protest in Europe alongside the families of other terror victims in support of the legality the Israeli West Bank barrier. Arnold remarked, "Do I feel bad about the destruction the fence is causing? I do. But do not compare the murder of my daughter to the inability of a Palestinian to get to work by 9:00 A.M."[40]

The husband of Shoshana Greenbaum, the pregnant woman killed in the attack, responded by organizing a group called "A Partner in Kindness" and writing a column called "A Daily Dose of Kindness". He explained that he made these efforts in attempt to "improve the world".[41]

how about you mr pragma---and the thousands ,like you ,what have you done for peace in Israel,as in actual acts that stop violence or support peace organizations with cash donations

mr pragma -how about you donate $10 usd to this foundation and I will match it with $50 usd on proof of receipt---- that way you can do something positive instead of spreading your one legged crow sorrow on internet sites

Posted by: jub | Jul 24, 2013 6:18:04 AM | 57

Jub, why pick on Mr P? You won't find anybody here who has the slightest political sympathy for the victims of the Sbarro bombing. Personal sympathy, yes: nobody really takes pleasure in the idea of blown-up teenagers. But political sympathy, no. We're all too aware of the appalling quantity of death and torture visited upon the innocent peoples of Asia, Africa and south America, in particular, by western imperialist military terrorism, which has continued with intermittent bursts of outright genocide for hundreds of years now. Campaigns such as yours are nothing but cynical attempts at mass emotional blackmail.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 24, 2013 6:55:19 AM | 58

@Mr. P & thomas: Having just watched the outcome of the Trayvon Martin trial - the current keystone for centuries of ignorant American racism (and quite possibly the cornerstone laid for centuries more) - followed by interviews of jurors saying "George Zimmerman's heart was in the right place" and "of course he should have his gun back, no one in the world would be more careful now" and "I feel badly for both Trayvon and George" (all true!) I have to think that Mr. Pragma is not only right in his judgement of the American people, but possibly too forgiving.

@jub I don't see how this intractable tragedy will ever end in true peace and justice if the vastly more powerful side, Israel (do I have to say it?) continues to claim that the problem of violence can be solved through building giant walls instead of laying a foundation for justice.

I can't imagine the pain he must have gone through in losing a child, but his statement is still unforgivable. To see the answer to his loss to be causing more injustices, to go on to imagine that the solution is to build a huge wall that vainly taunts god and justice - like some low set tower of babel - without seeing the other side and solving the problem only condemns more children to death on both sides of that wall.

I can't accept that anyone who can reduce the struggle going on in I/P to "the inability of a Palestinian to get to work by 9:00 A.M." and thinks that the apartheid wall offers any kind of even remotely acceptable solution at all, has any interest in peace of any sort.

If the Israelis want peace, they must stop working only for themselves. If the Israelis aim is too "stop violence" without addressing the underlying real and massive injustices, they will never hit the mark.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 24, 2013 10:11:42 AM | 59

"Do I feel bad about the destruction the fence is causing? I do. But do not compare the murder of my daughter to the inability of a Palestinian to get to work by 9:00 A.M."

The more I read this, the more disgusted I am. What an impossibly short-sighted view. What a shocking dearth of empathy for Palestinians who have lost, and will lose, their own children.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 24, 2013 10:26:18 AM | 60

@guest77 #59
There is no evidence of racism in the Zimmerman case and it is racist to say that there was. The chief inspector said he saw no sign of it. Zimmerman shot Martin in self defense and was acquitted of murder charges.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 24, 2013 11:49:51 AM | 61

@ Don Bacon #61
"... in self defense"? Surely you jest! That was satire, yes?

Zimmerman stalked Martin... Zimmerman was 'packing'... teenager Martin was unarmed.

As for being acquainted, look at the jury members... You do the math.

Posted by: crone | Jul 24, 2013 11:59:42 AM | 62

@crone #62
There's your opinion, and there's the juries'. I side with the latter, since they heard all the evidence. To suggest that the jury was racist is racist.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 24, 2013 12:03:50 PM | 63

@ 62 - meant to add the following...

would Zimmerman have stalked Martin if Martin had been white? obviously a walking case of 'driving Black'

again, surely you jest Don Bacon

Posted by: crone | Jul 24, 2013 12:04:00 PM | 64

fyi ~ (back on thread)

jub identified as a member of AIPAC upthread...

Posted by: crone | Jul 24, 2013 12:05:50 PM | 65

Mr. Obama declared that the prevailing borders before the 1967 Arab-Israeli war — adjusted to some degree to account for Israeli settlements in the West Bank

I's sure like to see some proposals, on a map, of such "adjustments." What parts of Israel is Israel prepared to cede to Palestine?

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 24, 2013 12:08:19 PM | 66

@crone #64
There was no evidence of "stalking." Zimmerman did not exit his vehicle until he was asked by the dispatcher which way Martin was running. Because Martin had run around the corner of a building and was now out of sight, Zimmerman exited the vehicle in order to be able to observe where Martin had gone.

So, not only is it untrue that Zimmerman “chased/followed/stalked” Martin contrary to police instructions, he was in fact seeking to obtain information explicitly requested by the dispatcher.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 24, 2013 12:14:20 PM | 67

Sorry to be off-thread, but when crap is thrown it must be cleaned up.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 24, 2013 12:15:24 PM | 68

Don, if you really think there is any excuse - legal or moral - for a grown man to shoot and kill an unarmed teenager, I don't even know what to say.

It's fucked up Don. For someone who seems to have quite a clear look at the way America operates across the globe, I'm surprised you're so blind to how things work at home.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 24, 2013 12:18:15 PM | 69

@Don "There is no evidence of racism in the Zimmerman case and it is racist to say that there was."

I'm really not bothered by accusations of this sort. Frankly, they're even less credible than hearing the ADL call people anti-semites.

"he was in fact seeking to obtain information explicitly requested by the dispatcher" which is all part of the problem, it should be quite clear. I don't see how you can defend such an act, no matter how much "legal" mumbo jumbo from the United State's racist and failed judicial system it might be dressed up in. No matter what cop told what wanna-be vigilante to do what.

If you want to call defending the right of people to carry on with their lives without being harassed by vigilanties "crap" you're welcome to your opinion, but George Zimmerman is not a man by too many people's calculation. In fact, he might just be the lowest form of wanna-be cop shit that's ever been so filled with hate and fear and yet so weak as to need to shoot an unarmed boy. Just my opinion though its one shared by many.

I know it's not the Christian thing to say, but I hope he gets killed Don. And I won't say any more.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 24, 2013 12:32:33 PM | 70

@ Don Bacon #61 & #62
one should clean up one's own crap, esp. when it comes from Faux News or some other conservative, racist source...

"... Instead, Zimmerman's legal team went straight to the self-defense, defense.....calculating that because witness accounts were sketchy and inconsistent, and whose voice was crying out, inconclusive.....the burden was on the prosecution to prove that Zimmerman's life WASN'T on the line. Zimmerman stalked Martin, yes. Zimmerman instigated the tragic event by stalking Martin, yes. But, the defense argued, Martin attacked Zimmerman with such life-threatening ferocity that George Zimmerman had no choice but to use lethal force against the 17 year old.

Fear is subjective, of course.....but medical examiner reports usually aren't.....

Dr. Valerie Rao, the Jacksonville, Fla., medical examiner for Duval, Clay and Nassau counties, testified that she reviewed Zimmerman’s photographs and medical records. She was not involved in the autopsy of Martin.

The wounds displayed on Zimmerman’s head and face were “consistent with one strike, two injuries at one time,” she testified. “The injuries were not life-threatening,” she said, adding they were “very insignificant.”

Other than the gunshot wound, Trayvon Martin only had one other pertinent injury. A 1/8 inch-by-1/4 inch mark on his ring finger. This, with the medical examiner's testimony, suggests, although not conclusively, that Trayvon Martin did surprise the stalking Zimmerman with a sucker punch...which could have resulted in Martin getting on top of Zimmerman very briefly.

But what do you do with the medical examiner's words....."the injuries (to Zimmerman) were not life-threatening" fact, they were "very insignificant?" Not just "insignificant" but "very insignificant." Can objective evidence from the medical examiner simply be discounted in favor of the "feelings" of George Zimmerman at the time? If Zimmerman's life was not actually being threatened.....and how could it have been otherwise if Zimmerman's injuries were "very insignificant?" justice served by discounting the nature of those injuries and, instead, deferring to how George Zimmerman "felt"?

That brings us back to Florida's "stand your ground" law. Yes, I know, Zimmerman waived his appeal to "stand your ground".....but Zimmerman's defense team still used "stand your ground" rationale. It's the 'resonable fear' thing....


776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force.

However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony...

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

"imminent death or great bodily harm".....and the entirely subjective "reasonably believes". Isn't that Zimmerman's defense? George Zimmerman's story is that he feared for his life.....he "believed", he said, that his life was in grave danger. But was Zimmerman's claimed "belief" "reasonable?"

The medical examiner testified under oath, (something Zimmerman did not do), that injuries to Zimmerman were "very insignificant." If Zimmerman's injuries, the delivery of which allegedly led Zimmerman to his "belief" that his life was in imminent danger, were medically-speaking, "very insignificant" was Zimmerman's belief that his life was in imminent danger "reasonable?"

And if Zimmerman's claim of fear of death or grave bodily harm from Trayvon Martin is not "reasonable".....then shouldn't Mr. Zimmerman be found guilty of manslaughter?"

Documentation for blog comments is affirmed in LATimes article here:,0,1358679.story

Posted by: crone | Jul 24, 2013 12:39:08 PM | 71

Don Bacon acting as Troll. It's like learning your mother is a hooker... Cleaning up shit in deed.


Posted by: oboblomov | Jul 24, 2013 12:45:08 PM | 72

This white woman has live for over seven decades in racist South Carolina... my forebears on both sides have been in South Carolina for almost 400 years. Goodness only knows how I escaped being a bigot, but I did... and I certainly recognize racism when I see it, and imho George Zimmerman is a racist.

Putting racism aside, imho George Zimmerman is a killer... and the evidence supports this opinion. Too bad the jury members did not consider the evidence when rendering their verdict. Not the first time this has happened and it won't be the last.

Posted by: crone | Jul 24, 2013 12:48:04 PM | 73

A poignant example of how Israel via the so-called 'holocaust museum' becomes part of the machine of imperial ideology:

"The US has to step up and show leadership in helping prevent atrocities and genocide around the world, two former top policy makers say in a new report Tuesday. The report by former US Sec State Madeleine Albright and former US envoy to Sudan Richard Williamson says R2P guidelines have been "unevenly" adopted. Commissioned by the US Holocaust Museum, the US Institute of Peace and the Brookings Institution (that means the Haim Saban Center at Brookings, probably - RB), it sets out a series of recommendations for the US administration to step up its commitment and move to engage other nations. Both Albright and Williamson "have been very concerned about the ongoing prevalence of atrocities," said Mike Abramowitz, director for the Center for the Prevention of Genocide at the Holocaust Museum, adding that "we seem perpetually to do not such a great job in preventing these kinds of atrocities." The report argued the US should draw up a plan to boost its own capacity to help prevent atrocities. It could also employ tools such as satellite imagery, intercepting or jamming communications, blocking financial accounts, and exposing the names of individuals or groups known to be helping perpetrators."

I have quoted an AFP version because I've used up my NYT quota for the month.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 24, 2013 12:54:04 PM | 74

Counterpunch has an article on US v. Trayvon Martin

Frankly, I don't consider discussion of the Martin case off-thread... imho Israelis are bigots as demonstrated in their treatment/separation of/from Palestinians and all Arabs/Muslims.

Posted by: crone | Jul 24, 2013 1:09:24 PM | 75

jub (57)

Unless Palestinians a) without proper reason b) intentionally c) planfully and selectively d) target an israeli child - whatever they do *is* justified and in fact justified by prior - and usually worse - israel actions.

Did they single that young israeli out, did they go intentionally and particularly against her? No. She just happened to be there. Case closed, Palestinian action justified.
Remember the israeli soldiers who shot Palestinian children? Those were single cases, those israeli scumbags could and did choose to willfully kill children.

The "state" of israel was illegitimate and criminal from the start and has been engaged in savage acts, deception, and mass murder ever since.

Not that I particularly like the zusa-americans but I can't but be fair and recognize that the large majority are primitive but not per se bad or aggressive; the murderous creatures both at home and abroad have been created by "dual citizens" and israelis and their cut outs.

Terminating israel is a necessity of highest priority for humanity on this planet to recover - no matter the cost for israel or israelis (incl. those abroad and their willing servants).

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Jul 24, 2013 1:17:46 PM | 76

Much of the trouble people have with the Trayvon Martin case arises from the ease with which, in accord with contemporary culture, those horrified at the abiding, systemic racism which pervades US society (and in which Florida is marinated)evidenced once again in the ludicrous verdict exonerating Zimmerman, feel obliged, as our respected fellow guest77 does, to call for Zimmerman to be treated as badly as he treats others.

"Let us not disfigure ourselves with the obloquy of hatred" a survivor of the Glencoe massacre, counselled his fellows.

And let us, who surely weep for the loss of this seventeen year old's life, not attempt to switch the blame from the United States and Florida to the almost as young and not much less innocent Zimmerman.

Putting Zimmerman in jail or executing him would deter nobody from committing racist violence. On the contrary it would simply contribute more fuel to the cesspool of hatred and fear which is the United States gift to our civilisation and which is the epicentre of the criminal warmaking which threatens all human life and the planet itself. Born of genocidal rage and the guilt of enslaving kidnapped Africans, American violence is a disease which shows no sign of abating. Ask and Arab. Or a Haitian.

As to that Florida Jury, Don, they are clearly racists so deeply saturated in racism that they are ignorant of their most distinguishing cultural characteristic.

This whole continent is disfigured by racism: it is what makes us unable, as societies, to think straight. And, if there is one thing we know about it, it is that racism does not disappear when we pretend we cannot see it. Nor does it diminish as time passes: it is a shape shifting evil that changes its forms without altering its nature. As it does so it gets worse and worse: in 2013 it makes the distemper of 1863 seem mild. Now the riots rage not just across cities but continents. And the casualties of this racist cruelty are counted in millions.

And the bottom line on this calculation is that an enormously disproportionate share of the black males in the United States are in jail, or have been to jail. And that once a day another black man is killed by a "peace officer." And that there are more blacks enslaved in the United States today-incarcerated- than there were when audiences around the world were weeping over Uncle Toms Cabin.

Something needs to be done about the state of affairs that led to the lynching of Trayvon Martin, by the son of a Virginia magistrate, carrying out a negro patrol of his own, to prove himself, probably, and show that deep down he was as white as the next regular guy.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 24, 2013 1:33:04 PM | 77


We need a new open thread.

Posted by: Rusty Pipes | Jul 24, 2013 1:39:50 PM | 78

@crone #73
Goodness only knows how I escaped being a bigot
According to what you've said here, you haven't.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 24, 2013 2:02:53 PM | 79

I'm afraid we experience a phenomenon here that is very american and frankly, pissing off quite a few people.

zusa-americans aren't self-centric, as is often said, no, they are self-obsessed and in some kind of self-importance rage.

Even otherwise educated people have no qualms or problem to quote whatever any whatsoever (and be it smallville) gazette or mayors personal assistant or congressman or football captain happens to have to say to whatever.

Did zimmerman kill travyon? I don't know and I don't care the slightest. For three reasons:
- I'm (obviously) not living there - and so do 95% of this worlds population. Btw. zusa may seem to think they be 114% (little joke on zusa math skills *g) of the relevant population but the other 95% in this world consider them a rather irrelevant 5% group (albeit a loud one).
- Even if zimmerman did - or did not - murder that kid, so what? zusa is full of killers, be they basic criminals, crime members, cops, amok running ex-soldiers, etc.
- How to know a zusa-american lies? - His lips move.

So, please: There are 3 gazillion zimmerman threads out there. Could we possibly just sometimes *not* pay tribute to zusa maniacal self-importance hysteria?!

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Jul 24, 2013 2:15:58 PM | 80

@Don, crone & bevin

This whole continent is disfigured by racism: it is what makes us unable, as societies, to think straight. And, if there is one thing we know about it, it is that racism does not disappear when we pretend we cannot see it. Nor does it diminish as time passes: it is a shape shifting evil that changes its forms without altering its nature. As it does so it gets worse and worse: in 2013 it makes the distemper of 1863 seem mild. Now the riots rage not just across cities but continents. And the casualties of this racist cruelty are counted in millions.

Right on, brother bevin!

Don: It's not that I personally object to OT stuff (my near-octagenarian status accepts digression), just surprised that you of all people would jump off the straight and narrow and with such vehemence. bevin, as usual has the answer. We (Americans... but why stop there?) carry such unacknowledged racist baggage it's bound to gush forth when we least wish it to.

Don, I respect your contributions here greatly, but marvel at your credulus acceptance of the US legal system. I won't even try to go into explaining how I feel about that topic here. I see too that you like your guns (correct me if I am wrong). Your wits will, and I assume, have, protected you far better than guns ever will.

Respectfully to all, obob

Posted by: oboblomov | Jul 24, 2013 2:22:41 PM | 81

That same onion has a little piece on trayvon & zimmerman:,33126/

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 24, 2013 3:16:48 PM | 83

oboblomov, you accuse Don of his "credulus acceptance of the US legal system", but you obviously like this "legal orthodox religious system" of the "Holy Grail of the Russian Orthodox Popes" (HGROP), just to distinguish them from the HGAF in Iran

Posted by: thomas | Jul 24, 2013 3:43:37 PM | 84

Rowan Berkeley 74:

You can get around your NYT quota by viewing the Times website from a different browser. Another option is to google "NY Times" and the first few words from a headline. You can access the article even if your quota has expired.

Posted by: Harper Langston | Jul 24, 2013 3:58:02 PM | 85

If el señor Zimmerman was in a car, following that young man? If he was in a car, and his role was to be a "watch man"?
If he was only to watch, why did he need to engage Trayvon? Why did he need to step out of the car?
Once he did, he became the agressor & Trayvon was actually the one who was covered by stand your ground, no?

I live in America and this was murder. It is a sin that this man is free and that The youth is muerto.

Now on to one of my stories about Israel!!
I had a friend from Israel called.....erm...let's call him Nahum...
Nahum like me is a party animal. He was very well known by all the Hebrews in the area.
So I came to meet many sabra's, I was able to medaber ivrit.

And based on all these contacts I planned a trip to Terra Sancta.
I informed Nahum and he was going to plan around the trip to show me around his hometown, Tel Av.

He was always bragging about how well the Arabs in this country are treated and how they "prefer" hebrew rule. As opposed to living in other country's where their fellow arabs live.

I think to myself, Dios mio. I must go and check this out. So I start making alternative arrangements to visit Palestinian refugee camps and arab areas.

As Im getting ready to depart, I ask Nahum what he thinks about my "arabic"?

He looks at me laughing saying, I won't need that shit since we won't go to arab area.

I tell Nahum, I have made plans to see the Arabs.

His smile fades slightly, and asks me, why?

His tone was also very different, I responded that I wanted to learn Arabic and practice with the locals.

He smiles again and mentions that he can arrange a side trip to Egypt and I can practice there.

I mention I made contacts to go to one of the camps.

His smile fades completely. He says that it is dangerous.

I tell him, I don't care.

Fast forward. Ben Gurion Airport, Nahum never arrives to pick me up.
I use the basic hebrew I learned, thanks to him and my studies. A four hour detainment. An explosives check.
Another friend revealed to me the possibility of Nahum being Mossad.
I don't know, I don't care.

I went to Palestine and met amazing Palestinians. Notice how I no longer call them "Arabs"....
Brotherhood, hospitable and kindness.
A lot of coffee, many invitations to visit homes.
Much pride but humility.
My impression is that these are two traumatized people's.
One the victim and the other the oppressor.
Palestinians are to be seen and not heard. Submissive and caution in their dealings is part of the dialectics.
While the Hebrews are proud, confident, rude and arrogant.
The faces of fear & kindness in the Palestinians haunt me everyday.
Ever since then I decided to help the Palestinian people as much as I can.

These peace talks are just
Mucha mierda

Posted by: Fernando | Jul 24, 2013 4:38:57 PM | 86

Posted by: Fernando | Jul 24, 2013 4:38:57 PM | 85

"These peace talks are just"

one day I was walking in the forest and I saw a snake about 2 meters away ,without even thinking I picked up a rock and held it ready to throw.
I looked at the snake and it looked at me ,we both watched each other intently,then as if on cue ,we both turned away and moved on, sensing we were not a threat to each other
there are 3 side to a coin,heads,tails and the edge,the edge is the hand of G-d both seen and unseen

Posted by: jub | Jul 24, 2013 6:25:50 PM | 87

If you can medaber ivrit, Fernando, you're doing better than I am. I started attending some classes, but then one of them looked me up on the web and announced that I was an antisemitic monster & they threw me out. They don't want enemies learning their language, and translating the things they write for their own audiences, which are often very different from the things they put in their left-liberal showcases like Haaretz.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Jul 25, 2013 2:42:41 AM | 88

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