October 07, 2012
Syria: False Flag Attacks To Clear A Border Zone
It seems I was wrong in suggesting that Erdogan was made to step back from the brink
. The false flag mortar shots from Syria onto Turkish grounds are said to continue. It defies any logic that the Syrian army would do such continues provocations. The Syrian government has no interest in giving Turkey a pretext for using its troops against Syria.
Each time such an unverifiable event happens the Turkish military is now using it (Dutch video report) to hold down Syrian army units with its artillery while the foreign sponsored insurgents take this or that town or army position.
This all together looks like a coordinated plan to push the Syrian army out of the border region with Turkey and to establish a zone there that the rebels can control and use for training and rest. It is Erdogan's solution for the increasing problem those insurgents create for him on the Turkish side of the border.
It is also an escalation that deserves a response.
Posted by b on October 7, 2012 at 11:50 AM | Permalink
There will be some skirmishes but no escalation.
This fuss will all die down soon.
Neither Syria (any faction) or Turkey wants, or can afford, or can profit from, in any way, armed and aggressive confrontation.
I hope I am right.
Posted by: Noirette | Oct 7, 2012 12:00:30 PM | 1
Or they carving out a sustainable zone for a ceasefire. This here is Ahmadinejad on Al Jazeera talking about the method of change.
Posted by: somebody | Oct 7, 2012 12:19:11 PM | 2
If Turkey indeed plans to escalate and escalate until Syria finally responds and "gives an excuse" then it may be Syria's best bet to respond forcefully against Turkey now. It would let Erdogan know that there is now slow, but cost free victory for him. He has to actually fight a real war or back down.
Syria can precede any retaliation with a warning that continued fire from the Turkish side of the border will bring a heavy retaliation.
I understand NATO might come to the 'defense' of Turkey, but at this rate, they will simply keep firing at Syria without fear of being hit back. Syria will definitely loose this way.
Syria must not allow itself to be killed off by inches.
Posted by: Lysander | Oct 7, 2012 12:55:18 PM | 3
It will be interesting to see how much artillery support the Turks can give without making the strategy too obvious.
Posted by: dh | Oct 7, 2012 3:19:09 PM | 4
I can't see this working. Presumably the area between two armies firing at each other is very unsafe.
Posted by: somebody | Oct 7, 2012 5:31:38 PM | 5
Check out this awesome post, and the ensuing thread, ya'll...! ;-)
Posted by: CTuttle | Oct 7, 2012 6:38:15 PM | 6
"Presumably the area between two armies firing at each other is very unsafe."
There are at a minimum THREE different "Armies".
I can only presume that, provided your statement was made in good faith, one of the two armies you are referring to MUST be the NATO-Financed/backed/armed/trained Mercenary FSA, since, as b has noted
"It defies any [sane - my edit] logic that the Syrian army would do such continues provocations"
while the other MUST be the NATO-Member-State Army of Turkey.
So, provided your statement was made in good faith, you appear to be saying that the area between the NATO-Army on the Turkish side and the NATO-Army on the Syrian side of the border is very unsafe
So why not dispense with any ambiguity and just come out and name the Armies you are referring to? - The FSA and the Turkish Army.
Posted by: SufferingFools | Oct 7, 2012 6:47:04 PM | 7
ps: unless of course you are trying to claim that the only two armies involved in this conflict are the Syrian State military and their opponents, the NATO Mercenary-army known generally as the FSA?
Posted by: SufferingFools | Oct 7, 2012 6:51:08 PM | 8
Turkey has claimed that one of the shells fired from Syria into turkey was an artillery shell not a mortar shell. Anti-Syria forces have mortars which might have responsible for the mortar fire incursions, but these forces would be unlikely to have a howitzer.
Zaman - Oct 7, 2012
Speaking on the state-run TRT1 TV channel on Saturday, Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu stated that the Syrian artillery shell that landed on Turkish territory was 122 millimeter, D30 type. “Its origin is clear. Such an artillery shell only exists in the inventory of the Syrian army,” said Davutoğlu.
He also added that Turkey is very well aware of where the artillery shell came from and who fired it. “This artillery shell landed on our territory, therefore, we know it,” said Davutoğlu.
- 122 mm howitzer 2A18 (D-30)
The D-30, or 122-mm howitzer D-30 (GRAU index 2A18), is a Soviet howitzer that first entered service in the 1960s. It is a robust piece that focuses on the essential features of a towed field gun suitable for all conditions. The D-30 has a maximum range of 15.4 kilometers, or over 21 km using RAP ammunition.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 7, 2012 7:16:30 PM | 9
Even Hague isn't specific about which exact forces....
“The Turkish response is understandable; an outrageous act has taken place, Turkish citizens have been killed inside Turkey by forces from another country,” Hague said. “So we express our strong solidarity with Turkey but we don't want to see a continuing escalation of this incident.”
Posted by: dh | Oct 7, 2012 7:26:46 PM | 10
.... a coordinated plan to push the Syrian army out of the border region with Turkey and to establish a (safe) zone there....
For the present Turkey is hoping that the Syrians will just pull their troops out of the border area. (There are reports that already Syria has stopped flying planes in a 10 km zone along the border).
Posted by: FB Ali | Oct 7, 2012 8:37:31 PM | 11
If Turkey is unable to keep the Kurdish 'rebels' from doing what they're doing, how on Earth is it going to defeat the Syrian army [let's not even delve into the hypocritical idiocy of Erdogan 'freeing' Syrians' whilst killing Kurds]?
I think it all depends on who is financing this entire endeavor and what their ultimate goal is [neither the Syrian populace or these so called, self-proclaimed 'rebels' will be part of this final solution].
Obama will be reelected and there will be no attack on Iran.
Posted by: Daniel Rich | Oct 7, 2012 8:51:13 PM | 12
FB Ali @11
...There are reports that already Syria has stopped flying planes in a 10 km zone along the border...
They've since extended it 4 more km's, from the already self-imposed 6 km NFZ...? 8-(
Posted by: CTuttle | Oct 7, 2012 8:54:21 PM | 13
It seems I was wrong in suggesting that Erdogan was made to step back from the brink.
There is no current evidence that you were wrong. The public war-promoting is, as usual, coming from the western press, and Turkish leaders currently don't seem to be sabre-rattling beyond the usual. Turkey isn't united on Syria policy, it has the PKK problem which involves Iran and Iraq, and Russia (I imagine) has given Turkey a large "Nyet." (Remember that most of Turkey's much-needed natural gas comes through s pipe from Russia.)
Meanwhile the ant-Syria forces are disorganized, relying more on terrorism which Turkey itself doesn't need to import more of.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 7, 2012 9:07:08 PM | 15
DR # 12,
I'm afraid fighting a war is easy if the other side accepts bombardment without ever hitting back. If the Turkish leadership is divided, it will be easy for Erdogan to convince the other factions to go along with him if he can point to how little Syria can do in retaliation. By not firing back, Syria is saying that the army is simply to fractured, to exhausted or too demoralized to repel a foreign attack.
That may in fact be the case. Even so, Syria may be better off "bluffing" than folding. A short artillery barrage into an appropriate military target inside Turkey, followed by a warning to cease and desist may very well get Erdogan to think twice or his opponents inside the Turkish government to pressure him to back down.
I recognize this can easily backfire and draw in NATO. At the same time, if Turkey creates a defacto FSA safe haven inside Syria, it will be a death by a thousand cuts, and with relatively small cost to Turkey. Syria should let it be known that if it's going down, its taking Erdogan and his government with them. Otherwise, I don't see a positive ending for Syria.
Posted by: Lysander | Oct 7, 2012 9:50:48 PM | 16
Authorities Kill Members of Armed Terrorist Group in Aleppo Countryside
Authorities hunted an armed terrorist group in al-Halabiyeh town in al-Safira in Aleppo countryside which was attacking the locals and perpetrating acts of killing and kidnapping.
The authorities killed most of the terrorist group's members during the clash, as the bodies of Ragheb Mohammad al-Safadi, the leader of the group, Ahmad Hussein al-Ali, Kheiro Hussein Allami and Kamel al-Alo al-Ibrahim were identified among the dead, according to an official source in the province.
Five Explosive Devices Seized in Hama
In Hama, a unit of the armed forces destroyed a terrorists' hideout in al-Hweiz village in al-Ghab area in Hama countryside.
SANA reporter quoted a source in the province as saying that the armed forces killed all the terrorists in the hideout which they were using as a center to attack the citizens in the area.
The source added that the authorities also seized 5 explosive devices in a terrorists' hideout in al-Baroudiyeh neighborhood in Hama, asserting that the devices weighed between 15 kg and 40 kg .
The source pointed out that the authorities also discovered a tunnel inside the hideout which the armed terrorist groups were using to smuggle weapons, ammunition and terrorists into the city.
Authorities Destroy 4 DShK-equipped Cars in Homs Countryside
The competent authorities destroyed four DShK-equipped cars and killed a number of terrorists in Jossiyeh and al-Atifiyeh in al-Qussayr countryside in Homs, and confiscated their weapons.
Two Children Martyred, Three Others Injured in Terrorists' Mortar Shelling on al-Joura Neighborhood in Deir Ezzor
A group of terrorists fired a mortar shell on al-Joura neighborhood in the city of Deir Ezzor killing two children and wounding three others.
Posted by: brian | Oct 7, 2012 10:42:20 PM | 17
@ Lysander 
I think we're way beyond the point of a 'happy' outcome one way or another. The FSA supporters are hellbent on the outcome they want [western-friendly puppet on center stage, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah] and f***k the population [as per usual]. Turkey reminds me of the idiot who yells 'I'm gonna kill you, you mf!!!" Saying is one thing, following through another. But it has been said on this site that some politicians rather drag an entire country with them down into the abyss than act like one would expect a 'statesman' to act, so I try to keep an open mind and not to hastily jump to one conclusion or another. The fog of war is thicker than my thigh and in it all sorts of truths get lost.
Posted by: Daniel Rich | Oct 8, 2012 12:28:32 AM | 18
DR, I hope you are right about Turkey being all bark and no bite.
For some good news, at least Hugo Chavez has been reelected, and by a very comfortable margin. He's supporters are flooding the streets in celebration and his opponent has conceded. So it doesn't look like a color revolution so far.
Posted by: Lysander | Oct 8, 2012 1:04:09 AM | 19
Lebanese Journalist for Al Jadeed TV, Yumna Fawaz was embedded with Syrian opposition groups on the Syria-Lebanese border. When she witnessed Turkish officers distributing weapons to insurgent groups inside Syria, as a result she was taken hostage by the Turkish officers and her video tapes siezed. The intention may have been to execute and silence her and blame the Syrian government, because at the same her station received news from the Free Syrian Army claiming that she has been killed by the Syrian government. A phone call may have saved her.
ok this is what has been happening. The FSA killed the japanese journalist and blamed it on the syrian govt...this Al Jaddeed journo was also to be killed and her dfeath blamed on Assad...and we can see that Alex Thomas also met the same fate: kill journalists and then the FSA blames it on the syrian government. Thankfully she survived so we can now see what they are doing
Posted by: brian | Oct 8, 2012 2:44:24 AM | 20
SufferingFools, have you ever talked to people who know what a front line is?
Posted by: somebody | Oct 8, 2012 5:14:19 AM | 21
Nice: http://libyasos.blogspot.co.at/2012/10/syria-syrias-ayn-el-isa-village-was-in.html :
Oct 7, 2012
Syria: Syria’s Ayn El Isa village was in the control of the rebels when the mortar shells were fired to the Akcakale
It was confirmed that Syria’s Ayn El Isa village was in the control of the rebels for 10 days when the mortar shells were fired to the Turkish town Akcakale and killed 5 Turkish civilians.
Posted by: m_s | Oct 8, 2012 9:44:48 AM | 23
If the situation escalates between Syria and Turkey and NATO become involved, then international anarchy and the rule of international law will receive a dagger in the heart. Right now, the world has been set back to a time when the League of Nations were in a crisis and unlawful behavior like we see today in Libya, Syria and various African states brought about (If my history is correct?), a world war. If the hired mercenaries, using the strategy of swarming provided by Western interest, are successful, then we can look forward to a further destabilization. This destabilization will go from Syria to Iran througout Eurasia. I'm certain that a fellow by the name of Brezinski must be really full of himself right now, gleefully looking down on his grand chess board.
Posted by: A.E.Williams | Oct 8, 2012 10:25:31 AM | 24
I very much doubt reports that there is a self-imposed no-fly zone or buffer zone in northern Syria.
Posted by: revenire | Oct 8, 2012 10:27:29 AM | 25
One Turkish columnist believes this mortar business has a purpose: Turkish takeover of the Syrian Kurdish area.
Hurriyet, Oct 8, 2012
. . .Now the government is using the pretext of a Syrian mortar which killed five civilians in the border town Akçakale to escalate the crises. . . . If Turkey was bothered by border clashes for security reasons, it would also warn the Free Syrian Army to keep clashes away from the Turkish border. Forget warning the Free Syrian Army, Turkey is encouraging the militants by all means.
Besides, nobody is willing to discuss the possible eagerness of the Turkish government to use the motion to start military control of northern Kurdish regions of Syria. When the Syrian Kurds took the control of Kurdish-dominated regions of Syria, pro-government analysis openly suggested the government give more support to the Free Syrian Army to stop the Kurds. . .
This has a ring of truth despite the flakey Turkish FM Davutoglu saying recently that the Kurds were fine with him.
, Aug 9, 2012
“I told them, the leader of the SNC chairs the council as a Syrian Kurd. And you [KNC] are sitting here as Syrian Kurds. Sit down and come to terms. What we oppose is the threat of terrorism and the possibility of one of you claiming possession of somewhere. Elections should be held in Syria; a parliament should be formed that includes Kurds, Turkmens and Arabs. You can come together and say we will grant autonomy [to the Kurds]. This is up to you. We would not oppose that,” Davutoglu said.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 8, 2012 10:35:02 AM | 26
'Saudi">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19874256">'Saudi weapons' seen at Syria rebel base
BBC News has uncovered evidence that weapons intended for the Saudi military have been diverted to Syrian rebels.
Three crates from an arms manufacturer - addressed to Saudi Arabia - have been seen in a base being used by rebel fighters in the city of Aleppo.
How the small crates reached Aleppo is unknown, and the BBC was not allowed to film their contents. The BBC is seeking a response from the Saudi authorities.
Separately, Turkey is calling for "international action" on Syria.
For a sixth day in a row, Turkey has returned fire across the border after a Syrian shell fell on its territory.
Posted by: b | Oct 8, 2012 1:16:43 PM | 27
As for what Turkey can afford of military 'response' against Syria, is calculated by how much receiving refugees cost. The strategy seems to be to establish a zone within Syrian borders where Syrian refugees and rebels can have their playground, surely that would be a worthwhile investment by the Turkish military - using the false flag 'Syrian' shells as a pretext to clear a zone (DMZ) along the border inside Syria.
Posted by: Alexander | Oct 8, 2012 2:34:19 PM | 30
Romney's FP speech today: "In Syria, I will work with our partners to identify and organize those members of the opposition who share our values and ensure they obtain the arms they need to defeat Assad’s tanks, helicopters, and fighter jets."
Romney: Screw the UN Secretary General, and the Pope.
AP, Oct 8, 2012
UN chief warns regional stability at threat in Syria, calls for ending arms flow into country Ban Ki-moon says he is "deeply concerned" about the continued flow of arms to both the Syrian government and opposition forces, and said a "political solution" is "the only way out of the crisis."
, Sep 15, 2012
In Lebanon, pope decries arms flow into Syria
BEIRUT - Pope Benedict XVI arrived in the Lebanese capital Friday as anti-U.S. protests convulsed the region and fighting with sectarian overtones raged in neighboring Syria. The pontiff, calling himself "a pilgrim of peace," denounced as a "grave sin" the transfer of weapons from any country to Syria, where rebels armed in part with smuggled weapons are waging a violent campaign to oust President Bashar al-Assad.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 8, 2012 3:15:12 PM | 31
@ KerKeraje #29 : I didn't read the article by Robert Fisk (I don't read anything by that writer; I regard him as an incorrigible fool on the basis of a few articles I read by him in times past), but let me point out to you that Akcakale town is in Turkey's Sanliurfa province and there are essentially no Alawite families living in that province in Turkey, nor across the border in Syria's Raqqa province either, for that matter.
Posted by: Parviziyi | Oct 8, 2012 3:34:26 PM | 32
Interesting note: The Hatay province where Akcakale lies is inhabited by native Arabs of syrian origin of whom many are Alawites. It is very unlikely Assads forces fired intentionally into that area.
Posted by: KerKaraje | Oct 8, 2012 2:25:04 PM | 29
Posted by: brian | Oct 8, 2012 4:44:48 PM | 33
It's very unlikely that Syria fired into any area of Turkey, given their relative strengths and vulnerabilities.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 8, 2012 4:48:37 PM | 34
Don Bacon, I read Romney's position as quite conservative: "identify and organize those members of the opposition who share our values": could well pave the ground for not taking action at all;
Bank Ki-moon and the Pope, on whose independence I wouldn't bet a dime, confirm that currently the Us position is at least wait-and-see (see also Morsi's attendance of NAM in Iran, which I think didn't happen without a green light from the Us)
the problem in Us political discourse is you can't advance rational positions anymore, you can only list obstacles and drawbacks and try to slow down the impetus towards the next crusade
Posted by: claudio | Oct 8, 2012 5:03:25 PM | 35
Don Bacon, I read Romney's position as quite conservative: "identify and organize those members of the opposition who share our values": could well pave the ground for not taking action at all;
You omitted the implementing half of Romney's sentence on Syria, in his VMI speech (and my #31) today:
In Syria, I will work with our partners to identify and organize those members of the opposition who share our values and ensure they obtain the arms they need to defeat Assad's tanks, helicopters, and fighter jets.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 8, 2012 5:22:44 PM | 36
Interesting note: The Hatay province where Akcakale lies is inhabited by native Arabs of syrian origin of whom many are Alawites.
The situation is more complicated than that. Akçakale is not in Hatay, but rather part of Sanliurfa province.
The Syrian Arabic-speakers a
Posted by: alexno | Oct 8, 2012 5:30:08 PM | 37
The Syrian Arabic-speakers are majority in Hatay, but thin out towards the East. There are more south of Urfa, close to Harran, and Akçakale (version Turk of Tell al-Abyad).
Posted by: alexno | Oct 8, 2012 5:34:46 PM | 38
Akcakale had a nice outing to Hatay today, and thankfully is back home again in Sanliurfa.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 8, 2012 5:39:27 PM | 39
Let us hope they didn't do anything to disrupt the flow of the Euphrates.
Posted by: dh | Oct 8, 2012 6:53:41 PM | 40
@Don Bacon #36, my point is that Romney is saying that if he doesn't find like-minded friends, there'll be no one to arm - he might well be preparing for a Us step back from Syria (it won't be him who decides, anyways, he must just be prepared to justify the decision);
if he wanted to push for a war he wouldn't be so "selective"
just my impressions, of course; there probably are thick dialogues undergoing behind the scenes between Us, Russia, Israel, Iran, China, etc, where Syria is just a pawn: it can't win in the long run without outside support if the West maintains the pressure, and maybe Iran and Hezbollah alone (who pledged such support) isn't enough; but they have means of retaliation that the big players (and Israel) sure are taking into account
Posted by: claudio | Oct 8, 2012 7:10:18 PM | 41
Romney's main objective, as he phrased it, is to bring down Syria because it is an ally of Iran which is the major enemy of the U.S., a threat to Israel, a scourge to the world, and besides that they talk funny.
So Mitt should have no trouble finding like-minded friends and arming them. The U.S has experience doing it, too, in other places. Didn't work out too well because the like-minded friends -- surprise! -- had their own agendas. Imagine that.
Remember in grade school where we had to find the lowest common denominators? We've found them.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 8, 2012 7:28:07 PM | 42
"out of a certain type of fiberglass which is absorbent to radar beams. This explains why it was not detected by Israeli air defense radar.
This alerted the investigators to the possibility that Iranian engineers were able to reverse-engineer the stealth and radar-repellent elements embodied in the secret US RQ-170 drone they captured on Dec. 13, 2011, and incorporate them in the UAV which breached Israeli air space.
Iran then claimed "
Posted by: nikon | Oct 9, 2012 2:50:41 AM | 43
Syrian political parties urge peaceful solution to end unrest
...Nine political parties in Syria gathered under the umbrella of the National Progressive Front held a political forum to discuss means of peacefully solving their country’s unrest.
They said Syria is subjected to an international conspiracy geared by some Arab countries and the west, but at the same time expressed belief that the unity of the Syrians will foil all plots. Fighting terrorism and rejecting foreign intervention were the main headlines of the meeting...
Posted by: CTuttle | Oct 9, 2012 3:14:58 AM | 44
@ 43 'Debka + nikon = CAMERA?' Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Debka is as trustworthy as Saddam's 'Tanks? Wot tanks?' propaganda master. I don't trust 'em no matter how far I can throw them.
Posted by: Daniel Rich | Oct 9, 2012 3:31:00 AM | 46
real propaganda is broadcasted through mainstream media, not obscure website like debka.
Posted by: nikon | Oct 9, 2012 3:47:32 AM | 47
Debka is more biased than propaganda.
Posted by: nikon | Oct 9, 2012 3:48:56 AM | 48
@ 43 - I’m calling b*llsh*t on this one as well.
Lebanon is at the opposite side of Israel to where Dimona is, so it would have to travel over 400 miles directly over one of the most militarised places on earth if it went in a straight line.
If it didn’t, & reports have said that it wandered over from the Mediterranean sea, paid a visit near Dimona before wandering over near Gaza, you’re getting around the 600 mile mark or more, also across some extremely heavily militarized areas – in a locally produced helicopter style UAV?
The most sophisticated UAV's in the world either work from an extensive satellite communications network & require hundreds of support personnel, like the US Predator/Reaper drones, or they work from the communications range of their launch platform, generally ranging from 90-200km's.
The extremely sophisticated Sentinel, Global Hawk, etc. can fly sophisticated pre-programmed flight paths outside this range, but even these have problems on genuinely long range flights, & generally require correction from satellite communications to keep them on course.
For this, Iran would have to completely reverse engineered a Sentinel, including the flight programming software & hardware, as well as its stealth materials, incorporate it into a new drone design, then prototype, flight test & build, all in a 10 month period, before handing it over to Hezbollah???
Got some nice river-front property in Brooklyn for you if you buy that…
Posted by: KenM | Oct 9, 2012 4:12:27 AM | 49
And today NATO is saying they are ready to "defend" Turkey
A number of links in this post
NATO says it is ready to defend alliance member Turkey amid artillery exchanges along its tense southeastern border with Syria.
Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said Tuesday that Ankara can rely on the alliance, which has "all necessary plans in place to protect and defend Turkey if necessary."
Syria says it is not seeking any escalation of violence with Turkey.
And quite obviously Syria would not be seeking an escalation.
I also posted, for those interested an A HREF="http://pennyforyourthoughts2.blogspot.ca/2012/10/turkey-continues-attacks-madness-behind.html"> Delusion of a limited Strike article originally from Washington Post- war plans for Syria absolutely horrible to contemplate IMO
Beginning with cruise missile strikes from the Med
and continuing on from there
Posted by: Penny | Oct 9, 2012 9:24:35 AM | 51
Posted by: tst | Oct 9, 2012 9:35:06 AM | 53
Posted by: tst | Oct 9, 2012 9:35:25 AM | 54
I blame Tuttle
Posted by: tst | Oct 9, 2012 9:36:11 AM | 55
I just used Ctrl/u to look at the code and it doesn't look like Tuttle did anything wrong in #44. There's a
in #44 that doesn't look right. (If you use Ctrl/u then use Ctrl/w to exit.)
Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 9, 2012 9:57:02 AM | 56
There's a "series of symbols" (didn't publish) in #44 that doesn't look right.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 9, 2012 9:58:56 AM | 57
In the "What took so long?" department --
from Hurriyet: Main opposition Republican People's Party (CHP) leader Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu slammed Turkey's foreign policy decisions today, calling Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu "an idiot," daily Hürriyet reported.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 9, 2012 10:00:05 AM | 58
s'Tuttle alright :)
first noticeable is he used an 'em' instead of an 'i'
then on the first paragraph he opens an "em" and it hangs there, with all manner of blatant html-codes going on until it finally, almost as a 'system-afterthought', gets closed just before the ending "/div" - which is weird -
Posted by: tst | Oct 9, 2012 10:59:42 AM | 59
okay - I didn't catch it. I tried a slash em and a slash i w/o success.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 9, 2012 11:05:55 AM | 60
aha - the slash em worked this time. gracias.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 9, 2012 11:06:41 AM | 61
phew - for a while there we were all wrapped up in a cloying swathe of infinite emphasis
Posted by: tst | Oct 9, 2012 11:10:16 AM | 62
Make that infinite emphasis. ooops
Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 9, 2012 11:21:14 AM | 63
"the slash em worked this time"
the definition of Imperialism, right there!!!!!!
Posted by: tst | Oct 9, 2012 11:24:38 AM | 64
Romney is blowing smoke about *everything.*
He has no foreign policy to speak of and his tepid and somewhat late pro-war guff is mainly directed towards ‘red’ states to tell them that the compensatory industries they benefit from (military, defense contracts, arms production, plus prisons) will endure.
The second sentence quoted by Don at 36 ....obtain the arms to defeat Assad’s tanks etc. is a nice illustration. The first part is anodyne, or regular Beacon-on-the-Hill about shared values.
Barring Israel and Iran... Yet even here he seems to be playing to the base, obligatory to campaign, never mind win, and concentrating on other dimensions.
I will recommit America to the goal of a democratic, prosperous Palestinian state living side by side in peace and security with the Jewish state of Israel.
We can’t support our friends and defeat our enemies in the Middle East when our words are not backed up by deeds, when our defense spending is being arbitrarily and deeply cut, when we have no trade agenda to speak of and the perception of our strategy is not one of partnership, but of passivity.
from news sites. OK that was cherry picking!
Posted by: Noirette | Oct 9, 2012 11:46:37 AM | 65
Romney is blowing smoke about *everything.*
Think Glenn Greenwald sumed up the US elections pretty well on Twitter. What he learned yesterday "1) Romney is a dangerous warmongering radical 2) Romney's foreign policy is basically the same as Obama's".
Two candidates but one military industrial complex.
Or as the Angry Arab observed from Romney's Foreign Policy Speech:
"I will put the leaders of Iran on notice..." I am sure that Iranian leaders would shift policies and end the nuclear program after being put on notice by Romney.
Something very funny about Mormons trying to talk tough, reminds me of spoiled private school-educated British leaders like David Cameron or Prince William playing at war. They just cannot pull it off.
Posted by: Colm O' Toole | Oct 9, 2012 12:15:20 PM | 66
I don't have a problem with a presidential candidate who hasn't formulated precise foreign policies, or domestic policies for that matter. We have too much presidential executive privilege being exercised as it is without encouraging them to be even more of a decider, particularly considering the quality of their decisions. The U.S. claims to be a democracy, after all.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 9, 2012 12:21:24 PM | 67
NATO mortar ‘gift’ from Turkey to Syrian rebels
Russia Today, Oct 7 2012
According to Turkey’s Yurt newspaper, the mortar used to attack the Turkish town of Akcakale last Wednesday, Oct 3, is a design specific to NATO and was given to Syrian rebels by Ankara.
An article by editor Merdan Yanardag states that the newspaper received information from a reliable source which claimed that Turkey itself sent the mortars to the FSA.
Editor of the Pan-African Newswire, Abayomi Azikiwe, told RT:
Turkey is a longtime member of NATO, and they’re going to act in conjunction with other NATO powers, so it’s not surprising that this has happened. NATO is deeply involved in every decision that Turkey makes. Ankara isn’t taking any military actions or contemplating any type of military strategy without being in full cooperation with NATO forces.
Turkey retaliated at Syria for a sixth consecutive day on Monday, after a mortar from Syria landed in Turkey’s Hatay province. Pres Abdullah Gul said in a statement on Monday said:
The worst-case scenarios are taking place right now in Syria. Our government is in constant consultation with the Turkish military. Whatever is needed is being done immediately as you see, and it will continue to be done.
But it’s not only leaders within Turkey that are stating their opinions on the conflict. Earlier on Monday, UN Sec-Gen Ban warned of the consequences that the conflict could bring to the region. Ban said at the opening of the World Forum for Democracy in Strasbourg, France:
The escalation of the conflict along the Syrian-Turkish border and the impact of the crisis on Lebanon are extremely dangerous.
The exchange of fire began last Wednesday, when Syrian mortar shells killed a woman and four children from the same family in Akcakale. Many fear the situation will lead to regional conflict, with political analyst Dan Glazebrook, saying that Ankara aims to drag NATO into a war with Syria. Glazebrook told RT:
On the one hand they are trying to give cover to the rebels to continue their fight, as they know that the rebels are getting defeated on the ground so they are bombarding Syria as a way to help the rebels not lose too many of their positions. But I think also they may be hoping that they can somehow nudge, provoke NATO into taking action as well, into prompting a kind of blitzkrieg that is actually the only thing really that would enable the rebels to win now at this state.
Posted by: SufferingFools | Oct 9, 2012 2:44:15 PM | 68
Not bad: http://www.innercitypress.com/aleppo1sc100512.html
Security Council Press Statement on terrorist attacks in Aleppo
The members of the Security Council condemned in the strongest terms the terrorist attacks in Aleppo, Syria on 3 October, causing dozens of deaths and over one hundred civilians injured, responsibility for which was claimed by the Jebhat al-Nusra group affiliated with Al-Qaeda. They expressed their deep sympathy and sincere condolences to the families of the victims of these heinous acts and to the people of Syria.
The members of the Security Council reaffirmed that terrorism in all its forms and manifestations constitutes one of the most serious threats to international peace and security, and that any acts of terrorism are criminal and unjustifiable, regardless of their motivation, wherever, whenever and by whomsoever committed.
The members of the Security Council reiterated their determination to combat all forms of terrorism, in accordance with its responsibilities under the Charter of the United Nations.
The members of the Security Council reminded States that they must ensure that measures taken to combat terrorism comply with all their obligations under international law, in particular international human rights, refugee and humanitarian law.
Posted by: m_s | Oct 9, 2012 2:54:56 PM | 69
My humble apologies, tst and all...! One too many Bitburgers last nite...! ;-)
Posted by: CTuttle | Oct 9, 2012 2:59:50 PM | 70
FSA threatens to take fight to Hezbollah stronghold in Beirut
...Syrian rebels said they have detained 13 Hezbollah members and threatened to take the fight to Hezbollah’s stronghold in Beirut’s southern suburbs unless the party ends its support for President Bashar Assad’s regime.
“We [vow] to take the battle in Syria to the heart of the [Beirut] southern suburbs if [Hezbollah] does not stop supporting the killer-Syrian regime,” Free Syrian Army spokesman Fahd al-Masri told media outlets Tuesday...
Posted by: CTuttle | Oct 9, 2012 6:53:40 PM | 71
proving once again (for the n-teenth time) that the FSA(and others like them) are, despite their rhetoric, interested ONLY in destroying Arab/Non-Jewish Middle Eastern states - they have absolutely NO interest whatsoever in opposing Israeli Zionism - and indeed ALL their recent targets are in fact States which actually DID make an attempt to oppose Zionism.
Ergo: if one opposes Zionism one will be attacked by the "Wests" mercenary Armies
Posted by: SufferingFools | Oct 9, 2012 7:00:57 PM | 72
Come on. If Hez can defeat an IDF invasion they can certainly handle the rag-tag FSA, should they have the bad judgment to actually try anything.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 9, 2012 7:05:02 PM | 73
What the head line said was " FSA threatens to take fight to Hezbollah stronghold in Beirut"
Given their behaviour so far, I'd take that to mean that they are going to start car/suicide (etc) bombing, throat slitting, beheading etc Shia civilians that live in Beiru, and posting it all to YOutube.
All the usual US-trained Death-squad stuff PLUS extras we've come to know and love (beheading, mutilations etc) just so's the Arabs/Muslims look bad - Basically start a sectarian war in the most blood-thirsty psychopathic nihilistic manner imaginable -
pretty much what this lot have been doing since day one in Benhazi, morphing through various different incarnations, easily crossing borders, international "Just In Time" Jihadis, hiding behind silly makey-uppy "Jihadi" names like "Al Queada in the Sweaty Armpit of Unga-bungaLand" -
Posted by: SufferingFools | Oct 9, 2012 7:50:16 PM | 74
The anti-Syria forces are not monolithic. What you're describing is Al Nusrah Front mostly, and other jihadists, and not FSA, as I understand the situation. They don't fight, they blow stuff up.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 9, 2012 8:12:42 PM | 75
SF @74 ...international "Just In Time" Jihadis, hiding behind silly makey-uppy "Jihadi" names like "Al Queada in the Sweaty Armpit of Unga-bungaLand"
*snort* Can I quote ya...? ;-)
Posted by: CTuttle | Oct 9, 2012 8:23:30 PM | 76
The anti-Syria forces are not monolithic. What you're describing is Al Nusrah Front mostly, and other jihadists, and not FSA, as I understand the situation. They don't fight, they blow stuff up."
let's hope your (marginally) more optimistic view is more realistic
@CTuttle - quote away - in fact if you can improve on "Unga-bungaLand" I'd be grateful
Posted by: SufferingFools | Oct 9, 2012 8:41:52 PM | 77
The anti-Syria forces are not monolithic
the exact opposite in fact - Shape-shifters would be a better description.
Posted by: SufferingFools | Oct 9, 2012 8:44:24 PM | 78
SF @ 77 'Bumfuckistan'...? ;-)
Posted by: CTuttle | Oct 9, 2012 9:33:49 PM | 79
Posted by: tst | Oct 9, 2012 9:37:07 PM | 80
tst @80 *ooh* Nice one...! ;-)
Posted by: CTuttle | Oct 9, 2012 9:46:07 PM | 81
Posted by: tst | Oct 9, 2012 9:46:16 PM | 82
News at ITAR Tass from SANA correspondants in Syria.
Unsurprisingly the 'FSA' tried to use the latest shelling to step up infiltrations - the Syrians say they nailed them - sounds pretty solid in details as well. (Russian news so I'll post the whole thing)
Syrian troops to repel an invasion of militants from Turkey and Lebanon
BEIRUT, October 10. / Correspondent. ITAR-TASS Zelenin /.
Syrian troops repelled the invading fighters on Tuesday from Turkey and Lebanon, the news agency SANA reported. Squad of mercenaries entered the mountainous area of Tel Nahbi next to the settlement Dzhanudiya, and tried to block the road, passing through the mountain pass of Jisr al-Shugur.
"Syrian army engaged in battle with the enemy, several militants were killed, while others fled to the Turkish side of the border," - the agency.
At Khirbet Nueymate on the Lebanese-Syrian border were stopped by two armed units / total number of 300 /. They tried to break through to the rescue of the opposition militias surrounded near the town of El Quseir, 30 km south of Homs, where a large-scale anti-terrorist operation. Faced with resistance, the rebels retreated into Lebanese territory in the area Mashari El Kaa.
In the industrial center of Homs / 165 km north of Damascus / Government forces entered Tuesday quarterly Khalidiya, who served for a long time bastion of so-called "Free Syrian Army" / SSA /. During the sweeps began, according to the channel "Al-Alam", destroyed more than a hundred militants hiding there.
Reports of heavy fighting coming from the city Maarat-Naaman / province of Idlib /. Formations PAS managed to capture several army checkpoints there and move to the city center. At the siege situation the base of the 46th Regiment in Ataribe, west of Aleppo. Militants second week unsuccessfully trying to take it by storm. Garrison helps air support of Syrian Air Force.
In the northern capital redeployed military reinforcements "for the decisive offensive" to remain under the control of the rebel districts - in the north, east and south-east of Aleppo. In Sheikh Masud Kurdish militia on Tuesday re-match themselves against the militants barricaded in a nearby district Bustan al-Basha. As a result of a mortar attack in the area, two workers were killed and four others were injured. On the outskirts of the city - in Kfar Hamra, Kfar Turan Zavrane and Karam El Jebel army special forces carried out several successful operations during which they destroyed gangs with military vehicles.
PS. somebody@50 - Cool! hobby drones. If I had some spare cash I'd be tempted myself - be great for some interesting photo's around the city...
PPS. agree with Don Bacon@75 - the last bunch of "Just In Time" Jihadis (great moniker, SufferingFools!) that tried to take Hezbollah, the survivors ended up heading in the opposite direction quick smart. Hezbollah know the local ground too well, & the FSA will stand out like, well, like a bunch of salafi fruitcakes.
Most likely, the locals point them out to Hezbollah as soon as they get near the Shia suburbs before they get a chance to do their usual torture/murder spree.
They need chaos to operate in, & I don't think that the chaos has spread to the Lebanese Shia suburbs yet.
Posted by: KenM | Oct 10, 2012 12:53:53 AM | 83
I think the fsa will be advised to wage their terror war one battle at a time..They're not even wining in Syria yet they're threatening to open a new front in Beirut???
Have they considered Hezbollah's not a conventional army and therefore not bound by any international treaties??? Hezbollah will turn them into mincemeat like they did once in Beirut when the march 14 idiots tried to take over Hezbollah's communications network.
Posted by: Zico | Oct 10, 2012 4:22:53 AM | 84
Is something turning in the UK? Yesterday the BBC showed Saudi supplied weapons being in the hands of Aleppo fighters. Today the anti terrorist police arrest 2 people in connection with travel to Syria to commit terrorist crimes; http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/10/10/uk-britain-syria-arrests-idUKBRE89909P20121010
The UK Foreign Secretary has made a statement about this arrest. So is this to protect the UK from active fighters returning to the UK or to calm down Syria? I don't know and like so much world history the events we are shown get determined behind closed doors.
Posted by: NICK | Oct 10, 2012 4:37:55 AM | 85
Wayne Sonter : While there has been no reference to Carr's criminal comments in the press in Australia, outside responses to the ABC program, which has stirred SBS to run with his pathetic response, it has come to the attention of Global Research, which demolishes Carr's 'just saying' ambit - as if he is not flying ballons to test likely public response for what is already underway behind the scenes among the "Friends of Syria" conspirators! See: http://www.globalresearch.ca/syria-is-the-west-contemplating-the-assassination-of-president-bashar-al-assad/
Posted by: brian | Oct 10, 2012 5:10:00 AM | 86
The US/UK/France is - again - fighting a proxy terrorist war with the help of their allies Saudi Arabia/Quatar/Turkey whilst officially supporting secularism and democracy according to their populations' values. So whenever Jihadis take over, they adjust the policy, and support an indigenous group fighting the Jihadis. Blowback ensured (last time Libya).
This standard policy however does not work very well when the aim is not to intervene and get bogged down (see Libya and now Syria), it does not work very well either when the aim is to intervene and stay (see Iraq, Afghanistan). Maybe they should try something else.
See this Analysis of "The Hill"
"Such a policy may serve the interests of the Saudi Kingdom by undermining a key ally of its strategic adversary, Iran but the results can only be disastrous for U.S. interests and the future of Syria.
As it has in other conflicts throughout the Muslim world, Saudi Arabia is expanding its influence in the Syrian conflict by arming and funding those elements of the opposition whose aims are limited to the establishment of a narrowly defined Sunni, Salafist government, one that takes its religious inspiration from the Wahabi government in Riyadh. Such an approach will only alienate the secularly oriented segments of the opposition as well as those religious minorities, Christians, Shia, and assorted others, that are already wary of the opposition’s goals for a future Syria. These religions minorities, while often finding the Assad regime distasteful, see the minority Alawite government as the last layer of protection for minorities from the Sunni mass movements taking control throughout the region.
In addition to narrowing the base of support for the Syrian opposition, Saudi support for the religious extremist segments of the opposition will strike a blow against the future of a Syrian democracy. No nation is more singularly unsuited to the fostering of a pluralistic democracy in Syria than the tribal absolute monarchy of Saudi Arabia. The nature of the Saudi regime does not simply make it unlikely that it will pursue a democratic alternative to the Assad government, it guarantees that the Saudis will be outright hostile to a pluralistic, secular democracy that does not hold a narrowly-defined version of Sunni Islam at its center.
Last, a Syrian government brought to power and buttressed primarily by Saudi support would likely draw the immediate opposition of the Assad regime’s primary ally and Saudi Arabia’s strategic adversary, Iran. Iran’s overt and covert interference in Lebanese and Iraqi politics suggests that the Islamic Republic would not hesitate to intervene in the affairs of a post-Assad Syria if it perceived that its interests were threatened in the region.
Each of these outcomes would be a direct result of Saudi Arabia’s current policies in Syria and each is inimical to U.S. interests. U.S. policy in Syria should shift to a more active footing to counter Saudi influence. With or without U.N. Security Counsel support, the U.S. should work closely with its European and regional allies, Turkey in particular, to create a safe corridor through which to supply select secular elements in the Syrian opposition. More than anything, the U.S. must make its presence felt with the Syrian resistance and must, within the limits of its resources, influence the composition and tenor of a future Syrian state.
While the administration’s reticence to escalate its involvement in Syria is understandable, Saudi Arabia’s unobstructed interference in the Syrian conflict is likely to produce a political outcome that is inimical to American interest and to the future of a democratic Syria."
Posted by: somebody | Oct 10, 2012 5:24:47 AM | 88
Posted by: somebody | Oct 10, 2012 5:43:16 AM | 89
ah yes somebody...but it did half an hour ago.....consider this:
Link 2 used to point to article 1...now it does not...the change took places 5 - 10 min before i posted this note. Its called WEB SCRUBBING
Suicide bomber 'hits Syria military HQ' Published on 10 October 2012 - 9:01am
Two suicide bombers, one driving an ambulance packed with explosives, blasted an air force intelligence base near Damascus, a jihadist group which claimed the attack and a watchdog said on Tuesday.
The attack late Monday in Harasta just northeast of the Syrian capital sparked intense fighting between rebels and the army, which at daybreak pounded the town with shells, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.
"We cannot confirm the exact number of casualties right now, but we expect the number is very high," Observatory director Rami Abdel Rahman told AFP.
The attack was claimed by the Al-Nusra Front, which was unknown before the start of the revolt against the regime of President Bashar al-Assad but which now regularly issues statements claiming suicide attacks in Syria.
"In revenge for those who have oppressed or killed Muslims, the decision was taken to strike the Air Force intelligence branch in Harasta," Al-Nusra said in a statement posted to online jihadist forums.
The group described a three phase operation in which a suicide bomber drove a car loaded with nine tonnes of explosives to the front of the building, and 25 minutes later, another fighter drove through with a booby-trapped ambulance.
The fighters then targeted the area with mortars, according to the statement.
The Observatory confirmed that an air force intelligence branch in Harasta was bombed Monday night, followed by a second blast that hit a nearby army maintenance centre about 20 minutes later.
It said that the bombings shook the adjacent Damascus neighbourhoods of Qaboon and Jobar.
State media made no immediate mention of the bombings.
Syria sends extra troops after rebels 'seize key town'
(AFP) – 39 minutes ago
BEIRUT — Syria's army has rushed extra troops to Idlib after a strategic town in the northwestern province was seized by rebels, cutting off routes to the embattled commercial capital Aleppo, a watchdog said Wednesday.
"Helicopters are overflying the area," said Rami Abdel Rahman, director of the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, without elaborating on how many additional troops were on their way to the town of Maaret al-Numan.
The Britain-based Observatory said six civilians were killed in army shelling of Maaret al-Numan on Tuesday, while 12 rebel fighters died in the fight for control of the town.
The Observatory had on Tuesday reported that rebels overran Maaret al-Numan, on the highway linking Damascus with Aleppo, after a fierce 48-hour gunbattle and heavy shelling.
"Regular forces pulled back from all of their checkpoints around Maaret al-Numan, except for one at the entrance of the town," said Abdel Rahman.
"This is a strategic location on the route from Damascus to Aleppo. All the regime reinforcements headed to Aleppo must pass through Maaret al-Numan."
In a video released by activists on Tuesday, about 20 fighters belonging to the Martyrs' Brigade can be seen gathered around a tank at a captured army checkpoint in Maaret al-Numan shooting into the air in celebration.
Maaret al-Numan had originally fallen under rebel control on June 10, but it was retaken by the army in August, said the Observatory.
Aleppo, north of Maaret al-Numan, has been rocked by intense fighting between rebels and regime forces since mid-July and has become the focal point of the conflict ravaging Syria.
the 2nd link had the same story....till it was changed moments ago
Posted by: brian | Oct 10, 2012 6:52:28 AM | 91
Thanks Brian, it seems to be this here and the original source seems to be a statement by Al Nusra Front with partly corroboration from the "Syrian Observatory of Human Rights", plus no confirmation by Syrian Sana news. I would use salt and pepper on this one.
This here is the New York Times on the same incident putting it in context with potential NATO intervention.
Some sides are trying to draw Turkish and NATO military into the conflict and I guess the reason for that is that they are losing.
Posted by: somebody | Oct 10, 2012 7:13:41 AM | 92
"PPS. agree with Don Bacon@75 - the last bunch of "Just In Time" Jihadis (great moniker, SufferingFools!) that tried to take Hezbollah, the survivors ended up heading in the opposite direction quick smart. Hezbollah know the local ground too well, & the FSA will stand out like, well, like a bunch of salafi fruitcakes. "
you guys completely seem to misunderstand what these guys do - the job is the Fubar things - they don't really need to 'take anyone on' per se - they just need to demonstrate that HizB cannot protect civilians in S Beirut. In that scenario the aim is to force HizB to act, against their will. These actions can then be used against them
Salafists are already on the ground in Leb. They've had several years now to get to know the place
Posted by: SufferingFools | Oct 10, 2012 8:34:23 AM | 94
" I would use salt and pepper on this one"
It's real pity you are completely unable to do such a a thing when there's a Syrian Gov't to be falsely blamed for a NATO-Massacre somewhere - all of a sudden you jettison the salt and pepper and start lying like a WhiteHouse Press Spokesman
In fact you giving advice to anyone on what not to beleive if frankly fucking hilariously hypocritical
Posted by: tst | Oct 10, 2012 8:40:01 AM | 95
"Some sides are trying to draw Turkish and NATO military into the conflict and I guess the reason for that is that they are losing."
wow - your deliberate ambiguity is a joke at this stage
Since Turkey and NATO control the FSA, for your statement (provided of course it was actually made in good faith in the first place, which IMHO would in itself be a major stretch ;-) would seem to indicate that you seem to think that there is a possibility that the Syrian Gov't is trying to "draw Turkish and NATO military into the conflict "
If not, then who could these mysterious "Some Sides" you refer to be?
Posted by: tst | Oct 10, 2012 8:55:43 AM | 96
"Al-Nusra Front or Jabhat al-Nusra (Arabic: جبهة النصرة لأهل الشام Jabhat al-Nusra li-ahl al-Sham, literal translation: " Front for the protection of the people of the Levant"
That's a much sillier silly-Jihadi name than "Al Queada in the Sweaty Armpit of BumFuckistan" don't you think?
Posted by: tst | Oct 10, 2012 9:35:55 AM | 97
96 tst, sufferingfools, whoever :-))
1) I assume if NATO countries including Turkey had an interest to enter Syria/dared to start a regional war they would already be there
2) The psychology of terrorism is such that people unite against it, and force terrorist supporters to denounce it.
What you assume as a devilishly clever policy is the utmost stupidity for US/UK/France to endorse, it might be considered a survival strategy for states with no future in their present form like Israel and Saudi Arabia. The US could consider WW III as it would in all likelihood not be fought on their territory, however, it would cost them the rest of their influence zone for sure.
None of the parties that started World War I and II profited.
Posted by: somebody | Oct 10, 2012 11:03:39 AM | 98
So this seems to be the plan from Al Jazeera
"Syrian opposition fighters have said that they are creating a buffer zone on the Turkish border - a safe haven for the thousands of people trying to escape the bitter fighting in their country. Several rebel groups joined forces to drive government troops out of the area, but they are demanding that NATO intervenes to defend the buffer zone against airstrikes."
Somehow I do not see them getting there ...
Posted by: somebody | Oct 10, 2012 11:15:18 AM | 99
Drone in Israel?Obviously a propaganda false flag to make American sheeple think that the poor little racist state of idiocy is at threat by those crazy Muslims.
Drones are the most defenseless weapons on the battlefield,slow moving and a rich target for those equipped with SAMs whatever,And notice they are only flown in areas where the government is in collusion with US,ala Pakistan,Afghanistan Somalia where ever,as those nations are fully equipped to down them,but instead collude with US to kill their own people.We aint seen nuthin yet,as far as retribution to these traitors.
Posted by: dahoit | Oct 10, 2012 11:47:23 AM | 100