July 04, 2012
Syria: Assad Attacks Erdogan
Each time the Syrian opposition meets to show a united face it turns out to be less united than ever. Yesterday's meeting even included fist fights and flying shoes.
With each such stunts the opposition will lose outside support. That is good for Syria.
Meanwhile Bashar Assad, in an interview with the Turkish daily Cumhurieyt, started a full attack on Erdogan. In the first part of the interview he emphasized friendship with the Turkish people. In the second part he accuses Erdogan of having a "sectarian mentality" and of being merely a stooge for the United States-Israel-Gulf axis:
President al-Assad: [...] Today, Erdogan is shedding the tears of hypocrites for the Syrian people. Why hasn’t he cried for those killed in some Gulf countries, although they are innocent, peaceful and unarmed? Why isn’t he speaking about democracy in some Gulf countries?
Journalist: Which country?
President al-Assad: Qatar, for instance. Why didn’t he do anything after the Marmara ship incident except shouting? Why did he challenge Israel, and then suddenly agreed to deploy the missile shield in Turkey? Did he deploy it in order to protect Turkey from the attack of a hostile country? Did America build these bases in order to protect itself against this region? Which country in the region has the capability to threaten America? No country. So, the answer is that he deployed it to protect Israel. These circumstances revealed Erdogan’s reality, no more, no less. Erdogan hasn’t changed. What has changed is the way the people of the region look at him. He has failed on the Arab arena. He no longer exists, neither him nor his credibility.
A good interview (which Erdogan tried to prevent) and recommended reading.
This, and the sorry state of the opposition, will increase the pressure on Erdogan to change course and to stop the support of the opposition. That will not happen immediately. But when the Syrian army has pushed the insurgents back into the Turkish border zone the question of further escalation or folding will have to be answered by Erdogan. My bet is that he will fold.
Posted by b on July 4, 2012 at 10:30 AM | Permalink
The opposition groups doesn't want to start the political process until the current government has fallen, obviously the strategy of all are to take the power alone, instating a defacto dictatorship. As we all know, the political opposition groups never had any intention of democratic reform, it looks as only the Baath-party are willing to deliver that. Obviously the reason Assad can promise democracy, is because he in that case would be in power anyway. This process looks to be going Assads way.
Posted by: Alexander | Jul 4, 2012 12:32:56 PM | 1
I was watching RDI the other night and they interviewed some Turkish Alawites and a French professor based in Istanbul. It appears that the Turkish government, even though theoretically secular, has, like in Germany, been supporting Religions (actually almost all support goes to Sunni Islam) by paying imams, maintaining mosques, etc. and asserting that Turkey is 99% Sunni. The professor said that was not the case: Alawites have for centuries been persecuted in the Ottoman empire and later in the Turkish republic and that they represent some 25% of the population and receive no support from the government. They are basically a hidden people.
Posted by: Albertde | Jul 4, 2012 2:19:10 PM | 3
The problem of Bashshar is that he is a softy - a nice ophthalmologist who spent most of his career in London, until his brother Basil, the prepared successor, was killed in a 200 mph accident of his sports car on the road to the Damascus airport. (Basil should have had more sense; that road always has slow-moving traffic, and like any road in Syria, unexpected movements. But no doubt testosterone was too strong).
Once in power, Bashshar has always tried to re-conciliate people. The example of his statement in the Turkish interview that Syria didn't intend to knock down a Turkish aircraft is typical. But the background in the family, and other Ba'athists, remains hard. Since his appointment ten or more years ago, there have been attempts at reform, and all have foundered.
Bashshar is stuck with a hard line he doesn't necessarily support. I don't mean to support him; he has accepted a lot of evil he should have resisted. Isn't that typical of weak people (of which I am one, by the way, so I know what I am talking about)?
I should think in the end he will fail. He doesn't have the strength to impose his point of view on the family.
Posted by: alexno | Jul 4, 2012 3:04:48 PM | 4
Albertde, replace "supporting religion" with "controlling religion", and cut the "like in Germany".
Germany has for a long time simply ignored what went on in mosques, so German mosques could be and partially were much more radical than Turkish mosques.
Sharia law does not apply in the Turkish state.
The catholic church dominant in West Germany had for a long time had a habit to tell people whom to vote for, so the attempt to control the state would have come from the religious side. This would be impossible in Turkey's state islam.
Sunni does not really apply in Turkey: General wisdom - I am no expert - claims there is a Kemal Atta Türk state islam, a home grown non arab islam that mixes with all kinds of pre Islamic superstitions and political Islam which would be Erdogan. State islam bans women's headscarves e.g.
Turkey's integration is not just religion, they speak different languages there, too ...
It is impossible to integrate state religion into Germany's constitution Basically the constitution guarantees religious freedom.
For the past years the German government has tried to find forms of communication and agreements with Islamic religious communities, which has been and still is quite a challenge as there is no definite number of authorities in Islam ...
Posted by: somebody | Jul 4, 2012 3:11:05 PM | 5
Another case where you could argue that Bashshar has been 'soft' is the bombardment of Syrian cities. That didn't start until the armed rebellion was well launched. Bashshar hesitated.
In any case what do you expect of the Syrian army? They're not trained for hand-to-hand street-fighting. Bombardment is the limit of what they're capable.
Posted by: alexno | Jul 4, 2012 3:36:09 PM | 7
Re Erdogan. He seems to me pretty trigger-happy, and has been held back in the past by his colleagues and by the vote of the Turkish parliament. Turkish opinion is strongly against intervention, and I should think that will win.
There is still a party, among the elite of Taksim and the military, for integration into Europe, and NATO. But it is not a majority.
On other Turkish matters, the danger that was suggested, tha
Posted by: alexno | Jul 4, 2012 4:04:03 PM | 8
b. I suggest that both sides deserve each other. Problem is there are a lot of nice people caught up in between.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 4, 2012 4:07:31 PM | 9
On other Turkish matters, the danger that was suggested, that the Syrians of Antakya (robbed from from Syria in 1939) might rise against Turkey in favour of their Syrian relatives, seems to have disappeared.
The Antakyan waiter in my local Turkish restaurant assures me that his relatives prefer life in Turkey. And that seems confirmed elsewhere.
Posted by: alexno | Jul 4, 2012 4:11:41 PM | 10
I guess they will not want to go to war either ... the longer this draws on
For the inhabitants of the ancient city, it is clear that a quick and a peaceful resolution is the only way to both democratize Syria, and prevent the horrifying prospect of starting a full-blown sectarian/religious conflict in the region. Clearly, Syria is a very difficult gamble for the Turkish diplomacy. As the military conflict is prolonged and more powers are drawn into it, it becomes more difficult to pursue a policy which would not only stop the bloodshed at the moment, but also prevent further hostilities in the future.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 4, 2012 4:50:21 PM | 11
'In the second part he accuses Erdogan of having a "sectarian mentality" and of being merely a stooge for the United States-Israel-Gulf axis:'
which is exactly the way it is..Once more the truth lies with president Assad and the lies lie with Erdogan...wanna be pasha odf a new ottoman empire!
Posted by: brian | Jul 4, 2012 5:47:00 PM | 12
Bodies of two Turkish pilots found
Turkey's military says the bodies of two pilots whose jet was shot down by Syria have been found in the sea bed. A US deep-sea exploration vessel, E/V Nautilus, found the bodies in the eastern Mediterranean on Wednesday, state-run TRT television reported. Syrian forces shot down the RF-4 plane last month. Ankara says the plane was hit in international airspace while Syria insists it was flying inside Syrian airspace.
[so they say…but we cant be sure…itsUS and Turkey who make the claims…not the most trustworthy sources!...do we get to see the corpses?!]
Posted by: brian | Jul 4, 2012 6:45:19 PM | 13
I have no problem with people who aren't Turkish or Syrian reporting on events in Syria & Turkey even opinionating on which story is most likely to resemble reality.
But I believe outsiders should not be expressing opinions on what "They reckon should happen" in Syria or Turkey.
Not only is it no one's business other than a Syrian who lives in Syria, what the political structure of Syria is/isn't/should be, outsiders who advocate one particular 'solution' for Syria over another are a short step away from providing some sort of support from the outside for that viewpoint. That is imperialism in its most basic form.
If I don't wanna hear what Syrians reckon should happen in my country why should Syrians hafta put up with what a bunch of non-Syrians post to MoA about what Syria 'needs to do'?
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jul 4, 2012 8:52:59 PM | 14
A regime sniper shoots a young man dead in Zamalka, a suburb of Damascus. The body of Abdul Hadi Al-Halabi, the Martyr, is washed and shrouded by his family members. The funeral procession marches thru Zamalka streets toward the cemetery where Halabi is supposed to be laid to rest. Pall-bearer and community members chant anti-regime and anti-Assad slogans while waving the revolution flags. A bomb explodes. 85 people will accompany Halabi to his final resting place. 150 people are severely injured. This is happening daily in Syria. Assad is still hoping to scare people off the streets. His propagandists will blame "terrorists" whom miraculously are only killing demonstrators and opposition figures. He will blame the US, Israel, the Gulf states and Klingons. No one believes him in Syria. The only exception is that he still has numerous believers on the dark side of the Moon of Alabama. This video will be removed soon, watch it if you still defend Assad. We Syrians wish it on no one and we will be free from Assad tyranny sooner or later.
Russia is standing up to its values and is fully protecting the Dictator by supplying him with weapons and financial resources. Russia supports dictators and at least Putin is honest about it. The US is also standing up to its values by talking the talk of democracy and walking the walk of hypocrite, populist election politics. Obama lies when he declares Assad must go a year ago and he keeps on lying.
Posted by: Freedom | Jul 4, 2012 9:00:32 PM | 15
@Debs is dead
Correct, but I do not think this is big issue, people may and should be entitled on own opinion.
What is the issue that folks from the West doesn't see themselves as the oppressors, the occupations, the tortures, the plunderers, the killers; they see themselves as saviors of the world and in supremacy of political practice called "democracy", not to mention others buzz words from arsenal which only purpose is to cause cognitive dissonance.
Whenever this kind of things I pull out of memory dialog at 2:55 from the movie Missing of Costa Gavras.
Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 4, 2012 9:23:55 PM | 16
Post to MoA, or to any venue for that matter...
@Debs, wonderful paragraph:
If I don't wanna hear what Syrians reckon should happen in my country why should Syrians hafta put up with what a bunch of non-Syrians post to MoA about what Syria 'needs to do'?
Posted by: citizen x | Jul 4, 2012 9:41:09 PM | 17
Whenever someone writing in this way, in the name of the people, I know he/she is manipulating. We are dealing with demagogue. Out of estimated 18.000 Nato's mercenaries which causing carnage and mayhem in Syria 10.000 of them are not Syrians.
Of what "We Syrians..." are you talking about? Waiting another La Mission Civilisatrice?
Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 4, 2012 9:51:13 PM | 18
Fisk had a piece in the Independent the other day. His sources say that everybody has decided that stability in Syria is essential, so Assad will be allowed to stay, for the time being anyway.
The reason stability is so essential is that the usual suspects want to bring an oil and gas pipeline from the Gulf via Basra and Jordan to Mediterranean Syria.
This would break Russia's stranglehold on European gas supply.
If this is so, Erdogan is being taken for a chump. First he gives in to the US missile "defense," which is meant to protect not Europe, but Israel, from Iran. Then he gets blindsided by the "international community's" pipeline plan, which would break Turkey's stranglehold on Gulf pipeline routes to the Mediterranean.
If Erdogan had any brains, he'd be doing a deal with Assad and Putin to lock in a European pipeline supply cartel. Instead, he decides to shoot himself in the foot by warmongering against Syria, letting the "international community" divide and conquer the wogs, just like the did a hundred years ago after the demise of the Ottoman Empire.
Posted by: JohnH | Jul 4, 2012 11:22:16 PM | 19
>>> Russia is standing up to its values and is fully protecting the Dictator by supplying him with weapons and financial resources. Russia supports dictators and at least Putin is honest about it. The US is also standing up to its values by talking the talk of democracy and walking the walk of hypocrite, populist election politics. Obama lies when he declares Assad must go a year ago and he keeps on lying.>>>
Freedom, you sound disappointed with the US that hasn't come through and turned Syria into another Iraq. Russia is legitimately supplying arms to the legitimate government of Syria; the US and the Gulf states are illegitimately supplying arms to the terrorists to kill other Syrians. Big difference. Why did most Syrians vote for Assad if they didn't want him?
Posted by: www | Jul 4, 2012 11:24:56 PM | 20
Fisk's sources say that everybody has decided that stability in Syria is essential, so Assad will be allowed to stay, for the time being anyway.
Best offer so far. Assad would stay another 2 years to end his term and leave honorably and in the meantime some more opposition members could be brought into the government. The US and Qatar would get their oil and gas pipelines to the Med. Must be a big disappointment for the world's super villains that the Iraq-Haifa pipeline will never happen.
Posted by: www | Jul 4, 2012 11:46:23 PM | 21
Who're you kidding here? From your posing, I can tell you're not even Syrian so stop fooling yourself - you're not convincing anyone here with your sob/victim stories.
I hope you'll be writing the same about the "peaceful protesters" who've been killing anybody and everyone that doesn't agree with them..Go to Utube and see for yourself, they've stupidly posted hundreds, if not thousands of videos of themselves commenting murders. It's all been documented and with time, justice will be served to each and every one of them.
From the very beginning of the chaos in Syria, these same "peaceful protesters" where killing real protesters on the streets in order to incite the people against the government. So if they can do that to real protesters, why can't they do it to mourners? Feeling sad your terrorist friends have been routed out of Doumma?
Posted by: Ali | Jul 5, 2012 1:23:16 AM | 22
There's a sudden rise in the number of "defecting" generals to Turkish refugee camps - of all places. This comes after the Syrian army's cleared an area and arrested several terrorist commanders..Could it be that these "defecting" generals run for fear that the captured rebel commanders will name them as their main backers? just a thought...
There were reports of some dubious Syrian officers selling weapons to the rebels..My hunch is that most of the "defecting" generals fear they'll be found out after their terrorist commanders have been captured so the natural innstinct will be be to flee..There's also the Qatari/Saudi money factor. I heard they're pumping an INSANE amount for senior officers to defect - so far with little effect.
Posted by: Ali | Jul 5, 2012 1:35:00 AM | 23
>>> @Debs, wonderful paragraph:
If I don't wanna hear what Syrians reckon should happen in my country why should Syrians hafta put up with what a bunch of non-Syrians post to MoA about what Syria 'needs to do'?
Posted by: citizen x | Jul 4, 2012 9:41:09 PM | 17>>>
Not that wonderful, Citizen X, it's the Syrians posting here that are inviting the comments of others. Speaking for myself,I have an opinion of what the Syrians should do, but it doesn't involve in any way having NATO or the GCC meddling in changing anything in the country since this should be done by Syrians. It's amazing that not many here are aware of how the Syrian regime had been carrying on for the past 40 years or why the problems started almost 2 years ago. Of course, it's a fact that outsiders influenced much of the rebellion's momentum with arms and money, but to deny that there was a problem with the regime to begin with is to stick one's head in the sand. Debs and mostly everyone here don't want to see anything negative being written about the regime because they think that NATO and the Gulf Arabs are all assholes and the guys of the Syrian regime are all Mother Teresa types.
Posted by: www | Jul 5, 2012 2:45:19 AM | 24
I suppose, it never has been and will less and less be an "internal" Syrian issue. If it was, Syrians would have had a democracy a long time ago.
By the interviews he gave to a Turkish conservative "Kemalist" newspaper, Assad now officially has entered Turkish politics
"Although the al-Assad regime has been facing gloomy days, it is not an overstatement to say that Syria is ahead in terms of making proxy war compared to Turkey.
There are various reasons. Firstly, Syria’s authoritarian regime gives it the ability to conduct covert operations. However, in Turkey, competition between institutions, distrust and compartmentalization causes difficulties and sometimes turn them into a fiasco. The militaries’ documents have been leaked on the Internet systemically over recent years. Similarly, the negotiations with the PKK in Oslo were also leaked on the Internet.
Secondly, Syria has historical experience with proxy war. Compared to Syria, Turkey has a lower capacity. Thirdly, Syria has “experienced” allies regarding proxy war to get help from such as Iran and Russia. In addition, Syria even can provide their orders.
Furthermore, Syria’s assigning meaning to the issue is vital. Thus, its risk-taking capacity extends from Turkey. Lastly, Syria has experienced, ready and efficient organizations such as its former ally, the PKK. Turkey tries to take its road devoid of ideological integrity, without a leader, inexperienced, and with a dispersed structure.
As a result, while center of gravity of the struggle is shifting to proxy war, it will not be a surprise to face interesting developments on the Turkish front."
It was a really brillant US idea to coopt Turkey and Qatar to the fight for Arab hearts and minds - so sure to backfire ...
Posted by: somebody | Jul 5, 2012 3:56:17 AM | 25
Turkey supports terrorists killing Syrians: President Assad
July 4, 2012
“Turkey has supplied all logistic support to the terrorists who have killed our people." Syrian President Bashar al-Assad
Syrian President Bashar al-Assad says Turkey supports terrorists who commit atrocities against the people in Syria, urging Ankara to stop meddling in his country's internal affairs.
“Turkey has supplied all logistic support to the terrorists who have killed our people,” Assad said in an interview with the Turkish Cumhuriyet daily published on Wednesday. The first part of the interview was published Tuesday.
“Turkey’s desire to interfere in Syria’s internal affairs has put it in a position which unfortunately makes it a party to all the bloody activities” in Syria, he added.
Assad also accused Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of being motivated by "sectarian instincts." He said while Ankara is trying to persuade Damascus to introduce political reforms, it ignores the killings and democratic shortfalls in other Arab states.
In the first part of the interview, Assad had expressed regret that his country's defense forces shot down a Turkish F-4 Phantom on June 22, but insisted that the plane was downed for violating Syria's airspace.
"I would have wished 100 percent that we had not attacked it," Assad said.
He said the plane was flying at low altitude and in an air corridor used in the past by the Israeli planes to attack Syria. Ankara, however, claims that the jet was downed in international airspace.
On June 26, Erdogan said in an address to the parliament that Ankara would retaliate “with determination” and take the “necessary steps by determining the time, place and method by itself.”
The Turkish Hurriyet Daily reported on the same day that Turkey had deployed a “large number of military vehicles to the Syrian border,” including “15 armored tanks, in addition to long-distance guns and other military vehicles.”
President Assad said on June 26 that Syria was in a “real situation of war.”
“When one is in a state of war, all our policies and capabilities must be used to secure victory,” Assad stated.
Posted by: brian | Jul 5, 2012 4:15:08 AM | 26
ed-handed: gangs, "Farouq Battalion" explosion of houses in the neighborhood of "deficiencies" in Homs to accuse the army shelling
Criminals pointing a camera at the apartment to be detonated by the explosion, and then waiting to do their comrades blown up in order to filmed and distributed to the media, as usual!? in one of the tape rare the most obvious which form the evidence is compelling that the gang of Islamic armed criminal bombing of houses in order to portray the accused Syrian army shelling. If we pointed out in earlier times, and a few months ago, the gangs of "battalion-Faruq" Wahhabism, a subsidiary of the so-called "army" free and funded by Saudi Arabia, blowing up dozens of homes in the neighborhood of "Baba Amr" before the arrival of Arab observers to accuse the army, they are the rare times that where we can get the presumption so clearly set the criminals red-handed. tape published by the "truth" and the photographer a few days ago in the "neighborhood of the Palace" in Homs, shows how criminals are installing the camera on one of the apartments, as they know that the explosion will happen there. And when he gets the explosion they start yelling "bombing the neighborhood palaces .. Oh God .. oh God!" explosion, as can any ignorant or blind to note, there has been not because of artillery fire, nor any other kind of bombardment, but an improvised explosive device placed inside home. And conclusive evidence, it is not only that the region is living a quiet moment when the bombing occurred, and the moment there is no any kind of military operations, but more importantly because it is crystal clear that he did not fall to the flat target any missile of any kind and from any party whatsoever , and because the direction of cumulus projectiles from the explosion comes out from inside the apartment to outer space force and violence, which means that the center of the explosion is an explosive inside the house. Had the apartment been any shelling, of any kind, to the direction of projectiles cumulus went toward random inside the apartment! on April 25 / April, we published a report we catch a gang of "Battalion Ansar", a subsidiary of "Front victory" in Homs, a bombed areas residential in the same neighborhood, the "neighborhood of the Palace", a mortar, although the neighborhood is one of the "neighborhood opposition" controlled by various armed groups! Source: The Truth
Posted by: brian | Jul 5, 2012 4:18:08 AM | 27
>>> Assad also accused Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of being motivated by "sectarian instincts." >>>
Those instincts sometime backfire, Brian. After the fall of Mubarak Erdogan made a cameo appearance at Tahrir Square to tell the Brothers there that the Turkish Brothers were ready to show them the ropes. They told him that they didn't want his help and he ended up with egg all over his face.
Posted by: www | Jul 5, 2012 6:13:21 AM | 28
>>> Criminals pointing a camera at the apartment to be detonated by the explosion, and then waiting to do their comrades blown up in order to filmed and distributed to the media, as usual!? >>>
Exactly what I thought when I saw the news clip of the explosion at the funeral procession. The camera was there ready for the explosion to happen. Same with many other ones.
Posted by: www | Jul 5, 2012 6:17:28 AM | 29
There will be some interesting stories in these just released files ...
Thursday 5 July 2012, WikiLeaks began publishing the Syria Files – more than two million emails from Syrian political figures, ministries and associated companies, dating from August 2006 to March 2012. This extraordinary data set derives from 680 Syria-related entities or domain names, including those of the Ministries of Presidential Affairs, Foreign Affairs, Finance, Information, Transport and Culture. At this time Syria is undergoing a violent internal conflict that has killed between 6,000 and 15,000 people in the last 18 months. The Syria Files shine a light on the inner workings of the Syrian government and economy, but they also reveal how the West and Western companies say one thing and do another.
The Syria Files
Posted by: b | Jul 5, 2012 6:38:46 AM | 30
great, b. this will blow up in the face of everybody :-))
Posted by: somebody | Jul 5, 2012 7:12:03 AM | 32
It will help get some heads out of the sand about Syria's not-so-elegant side of the story. Looking forward to seeing how the fancy skaters here are going to go around it. This is al-Akhbar's announcement of the coming releases:
Published Thursday, July 5, 2012
Al-Akhbar will work with WikiLeaks over coming weeks to release a large number of emails detailing the inner workings of Syria's political and business elite, the two organizations confirmed on Thursday.
WikiLeaks announced in a statement on Thursday it will publish more than 2 million emails "from Syrian political figures, ministries and associated companies, dating from August 2006 to March 2012."
The Syria Files are set to reveal the intimate workings of the country's ruling elite, as well as its opponents. Among the government departments included are the Ministries of Presidential Affairs, Foreign Affairs, Finance, Information, Transport and Culture.
"The material is embarrassing to Syria, but it is also embarrassing to Syria’s opponents," WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange said.
"It helps us not merely to criticize one group or another, but to understand their interests, actions and thoughts. It is only through understanding this conflict that we can hope to resolve it."
Al-Akhbar's Editor-in-Chief Ibrahim al-Amin confirmed the collaborative effort, saying it was important to determine the facts of what is transpiring on the ground in Syria.
"It is a sensitive time in Syria and it is important to sort out what is real and what is fabricated," he said.
"One thing is obvious though, the hypocrisy of global politics has reached a new high when dealing with Syria."
At least 10,000 people have been killed, according to UN figures, in a 16-month uprising against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, which is showing no signs of abating. Opposition groups claim the death toll is much higher.
WikiLeaks revealed Al-Akhbar was one of its co-publishing partners, along with Egypt's Al Masry Al Youm, Germany's ARD, Italy's L'Espresso, France's Owni, Spain's Publico.es, and Associated Press.
Al-Akhbar will be publishing stories from the Syria Files in the coming weeks as they are verified.
Posted by: www | Jul 5, 2012 7:27:42 AM | 33
this is rather bizarrely vicious!
'While I was waiting the “big boss” I heard one of the kids – the older one – telling the other how he and large group of his "brothers" - as he called them - attacked an army checkpoint the night earlier and killed bunch of them.
He was telling details that scared me personally, including burning one soldier alive when they captured him. The other 12 years old was smiling and chanting Allah Akbar (God is Great) saying those Alawites deserve this.
I interrupted the conversation saying in a very smooth tone, but they are not all Alawites, some of them are Sunni, and some others are Christians and Druze, I personally have been stopped by couple of checkpoints from Eastern Syria (Dier Elzor) as appeared from their language, the older kid looked at me saying:
"why would they fight with the Army, they deserve to be slaughtered with a sword, Alawites are all godless and infidel, and those who support them are all the same."
When we overthrow Assad – the 16 years continues – we will force Sharia rules on those who aren't “Muslims” including killing their men and enslaving their women, we will also punish those Muslims who didn't stand by us particularly Damascus residents who kept letting us down repeatedly.'
Posted by: brian | Jul 5, 2012 7:53:03 AM | 34
Germany's ARD is big news, as they are state owned ...
Posted by: somebody | Jul 5, 2012 8:03:32 AM | 35
Kids can be brutal. Moral is most often learned values.
Posted by: Alexander | Jul 5, 2012 10:07:25 AM | 36
No translation is needed.
German Weapons and Warmongering in the Middle East
Germany is playing very insidious role in MENA countries (just as they did in destruction of Yugoslavia, under CSU's Kohl and Genscher), and Africa as well. It is little known that German Navy control the shores of Lebanon (UNIFIL), and there is huge probability that majority of the weapons smuggled into Syria somehow had passed German Navy.
Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 5, 2012 11:54:35 AM | 39
Re the Syria Files:
"There will be some interesting 'stories'"
The operative word is "stories." It's going to be complete bullshit. Yet another opportunity for the CIA and pals to paint a picture of Syria.
Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.
It's too convenient. How many doucement dumps by the CIA are people going to fall for?
Let me guess . . . the emails will confirm that the "rebels" are crazy terrorists but the "regime" will also admit to crimes, etc.
Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.
Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 5, 2012 11:55:37 AM | 40
Somebody. Let me guess. The "pilots" were found somewhere between the border 9 miles or so out and the crash site, one mile or so from land, right?
This nice little convenient fact would support Turkey's bullshit story that the plane was hit in international space but careened into Syrian space. Finding their bodies in between would indicate an ejection.
Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.
Don't these guys wear homing beacons? You're telling me they ejected without being detected by anyone so they are only found weeks later? What are the odds of their helmets and boots being found but not either body?
Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.
Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 5, 2012 12:00:10 PM | 41
Doesn't surprise me that www is already running interference for the CIA. I suspected this was his game from the very beginning.
CIA document dumps will get some heads out of the sand?????
You need to get your head out of the sand if you believe this Wikileaks bullshit that is conveniently going to lay all the "regime's DAMN EMAILS (!!!@!) on us.
Bullshit. If Syria and Russia claimed to have 6 years of emails from Obama and his cabinet members where they revealed the biggest state secrets would you unquestionably believe it? Bullshit.
It's ridiculous. It doesn't surprise me you're peddling this crap and already vouching for the authenticity of CIA lies. You're peddling an attack on Syria my friend. You're no different than Juan Cole or Josh Landis or the many other neoliberal killers. You pretend to see both sides and pretend that you care about Syria but your MAIN GOAL is to support the bullshit western propaganda that the Syrian government should be overthrown.
You're weeping crocodile tears for Syria as you justify a Western attack.
Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 5, 2012 12:11:48 PM | 42
Walter, wait until the "stories" start coming out and we'll see if there is something serious in them or just bullshit. From the al-Akhbar intro, you can expect some spicy stories about the elites running Syria. There's more to Syria than Bashar Assad.
Manaf Tlass, chief of the Syrian Republican Guard and son of retired General Mustapha Tlass, jumped ship and fled to Turkey. We discussed this last week but there are still a lot of heads in the sand here about what's happening in Syria. Manaf's brother Firas, a very successful businessman is probably not far behind.
Posted by: www | Jul 5, 2012 12:13:20 PM | 43
I agree with you it was most likely a QF-4 drone which apparently is used for training. So there presumably are experienced operators and the drone capabilities fully tested. I first saw this suggested by LVB on Penny's blog:
It also seems probable the drone QF-4 was using an Israeli squawking signal. Based on Syria's statement (and they have not been proven to be liars and their info has been proved true in the past so I'm relying on it), the incursion was going on for 20 minutes or so (and this explains the presence of the guys on the beach filming it), and I bet the QF-4 was zooming into Sryia like it was going to attack then turning around. So I bet the drone simply got closer and closer until Syria could hit it.
Since international law requires Syria to allow Turkey to get the plane back Syria agreed to allow them Turkey into their waters to search for the alleged pilots. Turkey could have either planted the boots and helmets at this point or simply placed the boots and helmets into the empty cockpit of the drone.
The "father" was an actor or someone under cover making a propaganda speech. The bodies are probably not pilots but were staged by Turkey to give credibility to their false story.
Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 5, 2012 12:29:28 PM | 45
Oh, now www wants to wait and see what these emails say before we jump to conclusions . . . that's cute.
Because he confidently predicted those of us that don't believe the tales of massive crimes by the Syrian government aren't going to be able to put our heads in the sand any longer.
Seems like you're pretty sure of what these emails will say. As you should be, because they are LIES designed to assist in the attack on Syria.
And attack you are running interference for.
You are not open minded. You are peddling a war. Just like scumbags like Juan Williams and William Hague who I am seeing on twitter right now.
Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 5, 2012 12:46:49 PM | 46
I meant Juan "Cole" but Juan Williams probably works as well.
Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 5, 2012 12:47:50 PM | 47
well, according to our inscrutable host, Bashar had things pretty much under control against all those foreign "terrorists" who were willing to die in order to change the political situation in a country that these "thugs" do not properly call their home.
So, I look forward to b's wondrously intractable spin on the latest wiki leaks "Syria" document dump.
Posted by: slothrop | Jul 5, 2012 1:59:00 PM | 49
somehow slothrop, I get the feeling the "armed opposition" is loosing area after area they held, and the high ranking defector was not yet spotted in Turkey ...
I think, as Assange said, the E-Mails will be slightly embarrassing for the Syrian Regime, but also embarrassing for everybody who has been dealing with it, and the actions that were different from the rethoric. I can imagine it to be highly embarrassing for Turkey.
Corruption usually does not leave a clear paper trail ...
Posted by: somebody | Jul 5, 2012 2:42:19 PM | 50
What gives with al-Akbar English? I just get Feed Burner version of it when I click from my website now. They seem to have gone all pro-rebel Syrian with a lot of photos that look like glossy shots for Western glamour magazines. The ridiculous pics of "front line" fighters look like they are made with professional models. The clothes and uniforms look pristine, like they were just pressed out from the laundry.
I never knew war could look so fab.
Posted by: Copeland | Jul 5, 2012 3:13:42 PM | 51
I think they got hacked :-))
from google, caption under the SERP-Link
Al Akhbar English
A farewell to Al Akhbar and Assad's apologists | Jun 20 2012. Max ...
Posted by: somebody | Jul 5, 2012 3:23:29 PM | 52
What is it with dingbats like the latest 'cia is everywhere' turkey, that has to hold to the Syrian administration being spotlessly white before it can be supported?
The Ba'ath Party has been in power and without a 'legitimate' opposition for decades; of course the usual corrupt creeps are gonna be riddled through the administration like worms are through a dingbat's brains, but that doesn't mean it is OK for amerika israel or any of their ass-licking buddies to interfere in what goes on in Syria.
Especially not amerika or israel because their only difference from the points they will try and make about Syria is that they are more corrupt and a lot less naive. They have extra layers of media handlers guarding against reality leaking out into the consciousness of the people.
That matters most likely to be seized on by western media are those entirely the concern of Syrians and no one else.
Some of us will be looking for info about corporate deviousness which is likely still there as WL will have tried to ensure all archives are complete before they published.
I have no doubt that these paranoid ramblings about wikileaks will be refined into allegations that Assange is selling out to get free or that he always was a plant. Yawn. There are always a few who believe the world’s sole business is ensuring that anything they want won't happen, that everyone else is whispering and plotting for the sole purpose of frustrating the egocentric’s hopes and dreams.
If they stopped and actually considered wikileaks for what it is and always has been; an organisation that publishes whatever it is given as soon as the veracity of a docu-dump has been confirmed, they may just get an insight into the likely scenarios which have led to this publication.
Undoubtedly the leakers of these docs are no friends of the Assad administration, nor Julian Assange but that can never be a reason for wikileaks not to publish. If the documents are genuine the only thing a decision not to publish could have done would have been to show wikileaks to have bias and made it very easy for mainstream media to allege that everything else WL has published is therefore suspect. If wikileaks had refused to publish the documents would have been given to others, they would have leaked anyway but WL would have been shown to be partial.
Assange of all people will understand that this dump was made to them by the same people who are currently persecuting him and that some dingbats are gonna regard the publication of evidence of partiality when in fact it is just the opposite.
Picking wikileaks as the publisher was what some chinless spook would have sold as a win win move for fukusi.
For the real world, hopefully only a minor victory, especially now that WL has published them.
Sure it will tend to divide WL support, but only among those who imagine that Syria vs fukusi is a battle between black and white, and not an exercise in imperial adventure. An exercise targeting a country that has strategic significance that happens to be run by somewhat dubious types. What country isn’t run by creeps? I don’t know any myself, but most of them don’t cop what the Syrians are having to put up with thanks to amerika’s insatiable desire to grab Iran’s hydrocarbons.
WL have picked the slightly less stinky position because now if fukusi want peeps to read the Syria docu dump they are gonna have to tell peeps that WL stuff is good right after they have been refusing to respond to the continuing wealth of info from the amerikan embassy cables, on the grounds that Wikileaks was an 'untrustworthy' source.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jul 5, 2012 3:46:22 PM | 53
The Ba'ath Party has been in power and without a 'legitimate' opposition for decades; of course the usual corrupt creeps are gonna be riddled through the administration like worms are through a dingbat's brains
Sounds like the bankers in the City of London, corrupt I mean or the Semate and Congress!!
Posted by: hans | Jul 5, 2012 3:55:24 PM | 54
Look Debs is dead, I am with you on most of this, just not on who passed it on to Wikileaks. They startet with an Italian firm doing surveillance for Syria.
Siemens will have been involved, too. We know about Russia and Iran who supported the regime, we do not know about the others. Turkey will figure big from 2006 on. The US tried to be nice to Syria (like with this Vogue article), they will figure. Lots of journalists will figure, remember Nir Rosen?
The US partly coordinated security involving Iraq. France will figure big. You think these countries left Syria alone from 2006 to 2012?
For all, whose interests this serves, it might have been Syria themselves.
The sheer amount of it will be a big issue though.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 5, 2012 3:58:14 PM | 55
Excellent post, Debs. I think you've got the right take on it. For sure, the propaganda engine is being revved-up until all the bolts and fittings shimmy. The bribes and other enticements are at their thickest; and as each favor, chit, and marker is being called in, the whole panoply of electronic tricks and spoofs are also called into action. All the sets and mockups are being adjusted.
The empire is desperate now and believes it must have the Iranian resources, if only to deny them to its rivals. The sociopathic players have the dice cupped in their hands, but have only a few more throws remaining.
Posted by: Copeland | Jul 5, 2012 4:20:00 PM | 56
>>> The Ba'ath Party has been in power and without a 'legitimate' opposition for decades; of course the usual corrupt creeps are gonna be riddled through the administration like worms are through a dingbat's brains>>>
It's looking like already there's a couple of heads being taken out of the sand. That's an encouraging sign. Today Debs is saying that after decades without a legitimate opposition, the Baathists are going to have corrupt people. A couple of days back, I think it was b that posted an article that included a one-liner about the regime not being angels.
Posted by: www | Jul 5, 2012 4:56:50 PM | 57
Has ABC removed the interview Mother Agnes?
Susan Dirgham @SusanDirgham
@occupySYDNEY Download of P.Adams interview with Mother Agnes Mariam on ABC LNL interfered with. By whom? Any theories? http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/latenightlive/mother-agnes-mariam/4105266
Syd Walker @SydWalker
@SusanDirgham Susan, I don;t understand what happened with the Phillip Adams tape. Did he ever interview Mother Agnes Mariam?
It should be here:
susan Dirgham :
02 Jul 2012 11:26:34pm
Dear Phillip and team,
It is wonderful to hear the voice of Mother Mariam. We hear so few voices from Syria except for those of the 'opposition' or 'activists' who want to overthrow the government no matter what the cost in human life and to the society and country.
There have been other Christian voices coming from Syria. For example, an interview with Reverend Adib Awad confirms what Mother Mariam said about the Christian tradition of protesting injustice etc in Syria. Link to interview:
Another voice of reason (I believe) is that of the Archbishop of Aleppo. http://www.france24.com/en/20120113-interview-jean-clement-jeanbart-archbishop-aleppo-syria-bashar-al-assad-christian-community
I have interviewed some Christian Syrians and Lebanese as well as an Iraqi Christian about the crisis in Syria, and their message is very similar to that of Mother Mariam's.
The message Mother Mariam was presenting at the end of your interview was an important one, one which I can concur with. The hope for people's of the three Abrahamic faiths being able to live in harmony lies in the Middle East.
Many of the tens of thousands of Christians forced from their homes in Homs by Islamist militias will want to seek asylum overseas. It will be a tragedy for the world if Syria loses its wonderful mosaic of cultures and religions - that is the real treasure it offers the world.
Alan Lonergan :
04 Jul 2012 8:55:11am
This interview is surly one of those rare events when people get a glimpse inside the daily life of a Syrian and likewise the life of an amazingly interesting woman. I have been troubled by the black and white portrayal of the Syrian conflict as a struggle between the good and the bad. Mindful of what is happening to Syrian Christians at the hands of rebel fighters I am thankful to you that you opened a window onto a different view of Syria.
Ever since the killing on January 25th last of Fr. Basil Nassar I have been concerned at the way in which the crises in Syria has been reported. Fr. Basil was gunned down in the street while helping a dying parishioner. CNN said he was the victim of the Government’s armed forces but his own Church confirmed that he died at the hands of armed terrorists. Following on from this I encountered the tragic story (as so many stories are on all sides) of the young Christian boy Sari Saoud, filmed by the “Free” Syrian Army as he lay dying in his mother’s arms and while she pleaded for help to get him to a hospital they were busy uploading the video to the Al Jazeera and Al Arabia networks who instantly broadcast the even as showing another child victim of the regime. In interviews after the event the mother, aunt and uncle of the boy categorically state the child was killed by a rebel sniper and that if the army had been present her child would still be alive. I have long wondered since how many more misreported deaths have occurred. Video of Sari’s story as told by his mother is here with subtitles http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIuWsV79Uok
While the ending of conflict and the saving of all human life is the paramount consideration in the current situation one of the sad tragedies sitting as a footnote to this dreadful conflict and the distorted media representation of events must surely be the wholesale destruction of Syria’s ancient architectural heritage. Among other things the six churches at the heart of Homs old city now lay in partial or total ruin. The old district of the City, Diwan Al Bustan and Hamidieh, where the majority of Christians lived was over ran by rebel fighters many like the Brigade Farouq with affiliations to extremist Islamic ideologies alien to Syria’s Muslim community. From these Christian vantage points and to the total distress of the local inhabitants the armed militants fired on regime positions from which fire was returned and by extension the old city was turned into a battle ground by the rebels against the wishes of those who lived there. Of the six churches lost to the destruction surly the greatest loss is the extensive damage done to the Syriac Orthodox Church of St. Mary - Shrine of the Belt (Um al-Zennar) located in the district of Bustan Diwan. Few people realise that this is or was one of the world’s oldest working place of Christian worship. The crypt / cave beneath the current structure contains a place of Christian worship dating back to 59
Posted by: brian | Jul 5, 2012 5:50:52 PM | 58
'The Ba'ath Party has been in power and without a 'legitimate' opposition for decades; '
says debsis dead...
oh really lets counter this bull with some reality:
'"There is only one party in the United States, the Property Party...and it has two right wings: Republican and Democrat. Republicans are a bit stupider, more rigid, more doctrinaire in their laissez-faire capitalism than the Democrats, who are cuter, prettier, a bit more corrupt--until recently... and more willing than the Republicans to make small adjustments when the poor, the black, the anti-imperialists get out of hand. But, essentially, there is no difference between the two parties."'
there are no oppostion parties in any of the so called 'democracies'...
Posted by: brian | Jul 5, 2012 5:54:06 PM | 59
Ha. Good effort there Debs is Dead @ 53,
I'm a dingbat for suspecting the CIA is involved in Syrian affairs eh? That must make you an outright genius for making this statement:
"If they stopped and actually considered wikileaks for what it is and always has been; an organisation that publishes whatever it is given as soon as the veracity of a docu-dump has been confirmed, they may just get an insight into the likely scenarios which have led to this publication.
Undoubtedly the leakers of these docs are no friends of the Assad administration . . ."
Ha. Ha. Ha.
In other words, you're vouching for the credibility of Wikileaks and the leakers before you even see the evidence. You're even vouching for the Wikileaks process EVEN though they allow gatekeeper MSM orgs to help do their vetting. Yep, good logic there genius. These same western media gatekeepers who have been reporting false stories in Syria should be blindly trusted on vetting documents.
My skepticism is "paranoid ramblings" whereas Debs is Dead is super smart for unquestionably believing the western-created and western sourced stories about Assad the Huge Giant DICKtator.
As far as it being paranoid to suspect the CIA in Syria . . . this actually reflects on your intelligence if you think it's paranoid to suspect this. Hell, even the MSM who you trust to vet our news about Syria has reported CIA personnell in the rebel camps to keep an eye on things. What, are the MSM that you trust also "paranoid" "dinbats"?
www @ 57,
You are commending this logic as pulling one's head out of the sand? How does he know the "usual corrupt creeps are gonna be riddled through the administration?" What does this mean? Sounds like basic conventional wisdom that I'm not sure can automatically be applied here and in any case I don't know if it's good conventional wisdom and can probably be misleading.
Does this mean that any government that has one dominant party or officially sanctioned party is automatically corrupt? What evidence does he have for this logic? Does it also apply to the U.S. that has only two dominant parties? Or does this only apply to countries (like Mexico for many years) that had one dominant party? Also, what about the changes recently made to the government in Syria? I notice you two "experts" gloss over these changes.
Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 5, 2012 5:55:10 PM | 60
Posted by: somebody | Jul 5, 2012 11:36:33 AM | 38
so neo-nazi germany is aiding FSA terrorists...who are being aided by neo-otoman turks.
For all Germanys mea culpa over the nazis, they have learned nothing from history
Posted by: brian | Jul 5, 2012 6:03:03 PM | 61
How's this for paranoid?
I suspect there are multiple people commenting on this very site working in intelligence. I further suspect there these perps PRETEND to be sympathetic to an attack on Syria in order to establish their bona fides. They shed crocodile tears for Syria as Assad put it the other day.
But they also engage in propaganda to justify an attack on Syria. By pretending to care about an attack on the people of Syria these perps establish their opposition credibility so when they say Assad is guilt of crimes and "deserves" his fate or shouldn't be supported, or whatever, it diminishes the ability to stop the war. I'm not saying people should defend Assad. I'm not defending Assad! It's not personal. But he is no more of a dictator than Obama or Cameron. Full stop.
Actually, from the evidence I've seen that I can trust (i.e. not the bs lies we've been told from the opposition the last year), both Assad and Qaddafi are BETTER than Obama or Bush. Both of them are less tyrannical than Obama or Bush.
I've long thought Wikileaks to be disinformation. Simply look at who it's benefited. Any "dingbat" intelligence analyst is going to look at who these things benefit. It's not crazy to look at it this way.
Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 5, 2012 6:07:46 PM | 62
i do appreciate a sense of farcical humor:
'A handout picture released by the Syrian opposition's Shaam News Network on 4 July 2012 shows Syrian rebels allegedly taking over an outpost belonging to government forces in Idlib on July 3. (Photo: AFP - SHAAM NEWS NETWORK)'
we all know what SHAM means in english!
Posted by: brian | Jul 5, 2012 6:13:06 PM | 63
Straight Talking: The Syrian Cauldron
By Jeremy Salt
Ankara – Tension between Turkey and Syria along their border is edging closer to flashpoint. Last week a Turkish air force jet was shot down after violating Syrian air space. The Syrian government said the plane was hit while inside Syrian air space. Turkey says it had already left Syrian air space and was hit in international air space.
- Jeremy Salt is an associate professor of Middle Eastern history and politics at Bilkent University in Ankara, Turkey
Posted by: brian | Jul 5, 2012 6:18:47 PM | 64
Brian @ 63,
Good article. The "Third Wayers" the article describes is what www and Debs is Dead want us to think is the typical Syrian position. This is the point of their propaganda. And why Juan Cole, Josh Landis or Angry Arab will e-mail a friend in the region and this friend will tell them that everyone in the Middle East is a Third Wayer. These Third Wayers are the cab drivers that talk to Tom Friedman when he visits the Middle East.
The Third Way, as in American (and probably British) politics, is intended to sucker people into a false middle.
I saw recently that 95% of Tripoli came out to support Qaddafi and to protest a NATO invasion. How many in Syria really want the opposition and how many are even Third Wayers? I get the sense it's this Third Way category that is getting exaggerated in the western press.
Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 5, 2012 6:22:35 PM | 65
And I don't mean to endorse the article . . . that too could likely be more propaganda along these same lines . . . I've already suspected that FARS and SANA have been hijacked recently and there is no news source I trust anymore.
Just mostly like the "Third Wayer" term.
Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 5, 2012 6:33:11 PM | 66
egyptian salafist caught with pants down:
LOL the rigid doctrinaire salafist..like the saudi wahhabis..
[“Abide by the law of God,” is the statement that Islamist MPs in the Egyptian parliament insisted on adding to the swearing-in oath. But this religious reference was not respected by al-Nour party MP]
[Does that law of god include killing raping torturing?]
Posted by: brian | Jul 5, 2012 7:21:37 PM | 67
Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 5, 2012 6:22:35 PM | 65
millions also rally for Assad:
Umayyad square - Damscus : Massive Gathering in support of ...
Pro Assad rallies in different faculties of Aleppo University 19-05-2012
Posted by: brian | Jul 5, 2012 7:27:29 PM | 68
Here is amnesty: it wants the syrian govt arms embargoed but NOT the terrorists insurgency..Its time Amnesty was exposed as a fraud actually aiding islamic terrorists (as if there were no War on Terror):
Amnesty wants partial arms embargo in Syria
Members of rebel group Khaled ibin al Walid Fighters pose with their weapons at the front-line fighting against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's forces at Hamidiyeh district in Homs (Photo: Reuters – Yazen Homsy)
Published Thursday, July 5, 2012
Leading rights group Amnesty International called on Thursday for an immediate arms embargo on the Syrian government, but held back from including armed opposition groups, despite stated concerns over human rights abuses carried out by rebels.
The British-based rights group issued a statement urging states meeting at the "Friends of Syria" summit in Paris this weekend to push for a complete halt of arms transfers to the Syrian government.
Posted by: brian | Jul 5, 2012 7:29:27 PM | 69
I'm totally astounded by the amount of suppossedly intellignet people that STILL have not figured out what Assange and Wikileaks are.
The idea that they are 'good guys' just passing on what has been given to them is "Seriously Fucking Retarded"™
Anyone still pimping for Assange and Wikileaks really has lost ALL credivbility IMHO - listening to such people make pronouncements about what is happening in Syria, or indeed anywhere but the inside of their own heads, gives me the heeby-jeebies.
How can people so utterly, stupidly, gullible think for one second that they might have anything worth saying that could possibly be of ANY value to anyone else, when they can't even recognise a classic, almost textbook, example of a disinformation conduit?
Do you lot even know anything about how a Disinformation conduit might operate?
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 5, 2012 10:08:54 PM | 70
Hannah Arendt in Lying in Politics about Daniel Ellsberg's Pentagon Papers:
What calls for further close and detailed study is the fact, much
commented on, that the Pentagon Papers revealed little
significant news that was not available to the average reader of
dailies and weeklies; nor are there any arguments, pro or con,
in the "History of the US Decision−Making Process on
Vietnam Policy" that have not been debated publicly for years
in magazines, television shows, and radio broadcasts.
As of today, not much difference. Technology and speed of information dissemination is different but the substance is the same.
Pretty much based on, What Monkey See Monkey Do.
Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 5, 2012 11:48:47 PM | 71
I don't understand people who have a need to divide events and their perpetrators into 'black' and 'white'. I have been a longtime opponent of amerika, england, france, israel or any other whitefella mob who thinks there is an earner in meddling in ME affairs.
I absolutely oppose the meddling in the Arab nations that every allegedly 'democratic' nation has supported since at least the 10th century AD and considerably longer if one considers the roman empire and its morphing into the "holy Roman Empire'.
But my opposition to imperialism doesn't come with an automatic 'big tick' for the existing political structures in place in those nations.
Unlike the drop kicks who have commented just above me, I am capable of recognising that virtually all centralised political structures are corrupt by nature and exist primarily to meet the needs of those who run them rather than those whom they are meant to serve.
I have no liking for the Syrian opposition parties because a/ that haven't demonstrated any more concern for the average Syrian than the incumbent govt and 2/ by accepting help from the same whitefella regimes that have had their feet on the throat of ME countries for centuries they have sold out Syrians to get power, a sure indication they are corrupt and self serving.
I realise that the world would be a lot simpler, maybe even simple enough for some of the brains on display here, if everything fell into one of two categories; good or bad, but binary situations such as that are rare in nature and virtually non-existent in human endeavour.
The situation that most peeps confront when assessing a political situation is bad, worse, and much worse . That is a simple fact of life.
I made those comments about the Syrian government precisely because that unless defenders of the Assad administration are mature enough to recognise this, and recognise that there is going to be stuff made public over the next while that will embarrass senior figures in the Assad government that will in all likelihood be correct, they are gonna do more harm than good if they wheel out the usual paranoid conspiracy fantasies in a piss weak attempt to wash the issues raised away.
You see even the most sheep-like follower of TV News recognises deep down that those who want to lead other humans aren't who they claim to be. The reasons those types continue to support the insupportable are complex and worthy of debate another time, but the point I want to make is that if those who claim to want to help Syria resist invasion and interference, simply play a denial game when discussing the info which is released by WL, they will find out their entire argument has been destroyed when hard evidence supporting some of the claims surfaces.
Some of the stuff coming out will likely implicate opposition figures particularly those that jumped ship when they thought fukusi was gonna invade and chuck Assad & co out. What will the paranoid deniers say then? That this information shouldn't be trusted either? Or will they destroy their already tattered credibility by claiming the usual good vs evil position of everything that is derogatory for Assad figures is lies but the stuff which exposes the opposition leaders is true?
As for the tin foil hat wearers still claiming that Assange was a cia plant right from the time he encrypted the info used by 'the agency' to co-ordinate the destruction of the twin towers or building n or however that wet dream goes, I always wonder how such people wipe the shit off themselves in the mornings. It looks like toilet tissue, smells like toilet tissue so, using the logic they apply to everything else, that must mean that it cannot be toilet tissue, it must in fact be secretly coated asshole dissolver.
"How come wikileaks didn't have more about israel?" is the usual cry from those logic perverting types demanding the rest of us prove a negative.
Well it seems to me that the sort of low but secret classification which the WL cables were (remember they were available to a couple hundred thousand amerikan imperialists) would be a level lower than virtually any communication bwtween amerika's jerusalem embassy and the zionist pricks who wanna slaughter palestinians. All of that stuff would be sensitive and handled by types much further up the food chain than the 200,000 shitkickers responsible for developing strategies for oppressing unwhites outside israel.
I've posted it before so I'll post it again - the addle-brained paranoiacs who claim everything is a CIA conspiracy are worse amerikan exceptionalists than any thuggish no-neck amerikan rapist and murderer of arabs. These are the people who claim the cia must have been behind 911 "because 'those people in caves' could never have done that".
One of the greatest victories of the left last century, the liquidation of the man who engineered the slaughter of millions, amerikan prez kennedy, was never seen as the victory for humanist endeavour it was, because so many of these lefty 'the CIA is everywhere' types, fell for the ultimate cia disinformation campaign.
That was that Kennedy was killed by some sort of rightist conspiracy. Yeah right. Of course he was. Even though that creep was worse than oblamblam for doing everything the elites wanted.
The last thing amerika’s ruling class wanted was for Kennedy's death to be seen as the work of 'the commies'. That would have exposed the cia to even more ridicule since they had tried to kill Fidel hundreds of times and failed, yet Castro's boy Oswald popped kennedy’s brains across the trunk of his convertible first time.
Even worse for the elites exposing Oswald as a dedicated lefty and competent single assassin would have roused the population and moved the situation from the 'cold war' everyone was making money off of, straight into to a hot war where making an earner gets subsumed by the need to appear loyal to the war effort.
But you mob - you just keep thinking yer simple minded derp garbage, just don't expect the rest of us to buy into it, cause it just doesn't fit with any observable reality.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jul 5, 2012 11:58:21 PM | 72
"As for the tin foil hat wearers still claiming that Assange was a cia plant right from the time he encrypted the info used by 'the agency' to co-ordinate the destruction of the twin towers or building n or however that wet dream goes, I always wonder how such people wipe the shit off themselves in the mornings. It looks like toilet tissue, smells like toilet tissue so, using the logic they apply to everything else, that must mean that it cannot be toilet tissue, it must in fact be secretly coated asshole dissolver."
Poor old debs. Clueless as ever
Dude - time has passed you by - you're still stuck in the age of print, in your head. Still yearn for the old certainties you thought existed in your youth.
You still apparently believe in heroes. How sad.
In the age of spin and counter-spin there are no heroes - no real truth-tellers on the global stage -
Let me see if I can sum it up a little better - people like you are cynical as hell about the Media - me too - but then along comes likkle old saint Julian - canonnised by that very same Media you're sooooo cynical about, and you swallow that bullshit like you'd never even heard of the phrase 'there's a sucker born every minute'
The media is there to misinform you - so if it's telling you that Julian is 'The REAL Deal' there's a damn good chance that he's anything but.
And the ramblings of some washed up old fart such as yourself, who hasn't really 'got' how things work in the digital age won't change any of that.
People like you have yet to realise that nothing, and I really do mean nothing that wikileaks could leak would EVER do any real harm to the US or even Israel - irrespective of whatever is 'revealed' - the Empire has too much inherent momemtum to ever be halted in it's tracks or deflected from it's course by anything Wikileaks could ever 'reveal' about it.
And the people behind this operation know that all too well.
Less powerful nations on the other hand, targets of the Emipre, can suffer quite a lot form Wikileaks 'revelations' - and THAT is the real reason Wikileaks was invented.
".Some of the stuff coming out will likely implicate opposition figures particularly those that jumped ship when they thought fukusi was gonna invade and chuck Assad & co out.
really? How fascinating - and you know this how? You've seen nothing as yet and here you are making fairly specfic predictions about it - could your Assange Worship be any more ridiculous?
What will the [people far less gullible than Debs] say then?
Personallly I'd say that some people are idiots and will believe any old shit if it has the stamp of approval from Saint Julian of Assange
That this information shouldn't be trusted either? Or will they destroy their already tattered credibility by claiming the usual good vs evil position of everything that is derogatory for Assad figures is lies but the stuff which exposes the opposition leaders is true?"
Me personally I just ignore it ALL - and guess what? It makes absolutley no differnece whatsoever to anything that goes on in Syria whether I or you or anyone here choose to believe Assange's bullshit or not.
Basically I just work on the principle that none of it should be trusted - becasuse it's too easy for it to be salted with lies - and since neither you nor I nor ANYONE here - have yet to devise a method by which we could determine what is lies and what is reliable it's best just to treat it all as unreliable. And pretending otherwise is to me just like sticking a flag on your head that says 'idiot below!'
but you're welcome to keep worshipping at the altar of Saint Julian if you like - and I'll keep laughing at you, mKay?
"you just keep thinking yer simple minded derp garbage, just don't expect the rest of us to buy into it, cause it just doesn't fit with any observable reality."
It's like you're lecturing yourself there, without even being aware of it Debs - 'simpleminded' is how I would describe anyone that pays ANY attention to the shit spewed out by Assange and Wikileaks
Wikileaks never told any alert person anything they didn't already know that they actually really needed to know- and anything they didn't already know that might have been revealed to them by Wikileaks was of no fucking use whatsoever.
That you still have not realised that is fucking hilarious though
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 6, 2012 12:46:06 AM | 73
Name ONE truely important thing ever revealed by Wikileaks
Name ONE truely important thing/event that has changed because of a Wikileeaks 'revelation'
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 6, 2012 12:57:22 AM | 74
The point I want to make is that if those who claim to want to help Syria resist invasion and interference, simply play a denial game when discussing the info which is released by WL,
Nothing WL ever reveals has ever damaged the Empire in any real or meaningful fashion - but it does damage the weaker parties opposing them - and THAT is precisely it's purpose
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 6, 2012 1:01:45 AM | 75
WL could not operate the way it does without the help of the corrupt-to-the-core Western Media - if WL really posed any sort of threat to the Empire then the corrupt-to-the-core Western Media would just simply ignore it - instead Assange partner up with these people and allows THEM to filter the 'revelations' without any comment from WL on what the corrupt-to-the-core Western Media did or did not choose to highlight
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 6, 2012 1:05:17 AM | 76
Maybe not important to you, Hu Bris, but lot of other feel it was important, I do. and the world and people are a lot more complex than you imagine them to be. So claim more than one person follows exactly the same conspiracy is hubris, indeed.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 6, 2012 1:48:00 AM | 77
"Maybe not important to you, Hu Bris, but lot of other feel it was important, I do. and the world and people are a lot more complex than you imagine them to be."
[This new Religion of Wikileaks Worship] May not be important to you, Hu Bris, but lot of other feel it was important, I do. and the world and people are a lot more [gullible] than [they] imagine them[selves] to be.
Fixed it for ya!
Now maybe you'd be so kind as to try and provide some sort of an answer to my earlier questions?
Q 1) Name ONE truely important thing ever revealed by Wikileaks
Q 2) Name ONE truely important thing/event that has changed because of a Wikileeaks 'revelation'.
ta very much like
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 6, 2012 1:57:09 AM | 78
The thing that WL has revealed or rather, further revealed, is that the truth doesn't matter, no less it setting anybody free. Whoever has the power, either from controlling the state, the media, the economy, retains the power to control the rules of the game. Load up your hard drive with the history of the last ten or twenty years and travel back in time to 1992. Who are you going to tell and what difference would you make? The best use of it you could make is to play the futures market, make a shitload of money and buy some politicians and 'grass roots' political movements. Hmmm. Soros, Koch brothers, Schwartzenegger/Terminator?
Changing people's minds, one by one, is slow and sometimes tedious- but it's the thing that changes the direction of societies. WL provides supporting evidence in that process. What I would love is to see someone of the caliber of b produce some deep analysis of WL cables. It may be happening but I haven't seen it yet.
And, IMO, Debs is always thinking two steps ahead of you guys snapping to grid and shouting past each other.
Posted by: Biklett | Jul 6, 2012 2:29:25 AM | 79
so your answers appear to be
1) there are none
2) there are none
you could have said that with far fewer words than you used in your reply above
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 6, 2012 2:42:02 AM | 80
"WL provides supporting evidence in that process."
Surely you are able to provide some examples?
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 6, 2012 2:43:09 AM | 81
"And, IMO, Debs is always thinking two steps ahead of you guys "
Well at least you have a sense of humour
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 6, 2012 2:44:00 AM | 82
I'm still working on a joke using bris and dickhead.
Posted by: Biklett | Jul 6, 2012 3:00:26 AM | 83
Wikileaks is the biggest CIA disinformation ever - half-truths mixed with whole lies intended to convince the weakest of minds. Occasionally, the of state department officials thrown in a few warning lines about "activists" lives being in danger blah blah......as a result of the "leaks" being published to make it sound legit. I mean, since when did the CIA gave sh*t about the lives of "activists"? It's no like the CIA is a some charity/humanitarian organization that cares about the well-being of people, right? "Activists", to the CIA, are dumb expendables with the weakest of minds who're brainwashed into believing their actions actually make a difference...F*ck em and gaaaaaad bless Amerika!!!
I'll believe Wikileaks when Assange dumps everything he knows about Israel..The sh*tbag never criticizes Israel yet all his actions seems to be geared towards throwing all of US/Israel's enemies into a state of confusion causing them to fight among themselves. Classic case of disinformation.
Now back to Syria. Another Top general "defected"(aka, run for cover [escaped])..After a bit of research, it turned out this very general had been a member of the fsa all along and sensing his cover was blown, escaped to their favorite destination - A TURKISH REFUGEE CAMP FOR DEFECTING GENERALS(dig that?). Kinda confirms my suspicion all along.Many more will follow as their cover gets blown day by day.
It appears the military drenched regime change plans will have to be binned until another opportunity arises, after the Turkish jet fiasco. What the West are now focused on is the diplomatic front. This involves rallying some dumb countries, who've suddenly become "friends of Syrians" into a united front and......take it from there.
But the Russians and Chinese, after having their words twisted many times by the Billary and her tag-alongs in the EU after other previous meetings, are having none of it. They've decided to boycott the next "friends of Syria" in Paris, much to the dismay of Merkel(the empire's facilitator). One thing for sure, if the Russians and Chinese have decided not to play ball again on the diplomatic front, the line's been drawn.
It's quite sad seeing how the West is trying frantically to unite the so-called Syrian opposition, who've lived outside Syria most of their lives, with very little success. Every time they meet, they come out more dis-united than before(the latest being their Cairo meeting).If I were an investor, I'll pull out my assets asap. An incompetent bunch of free-loaders if ya ask me.
The whole regime change plan on Syria has nothing to do with democracy and human right..The West are perfectly happy doing business with democratic powerhouses like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Turkey etc..It's just that Assad isn't one of their bastards. The keywords here are GAS and OIL PIPELINES. Not too long ago, Syria, Iraq and Iran signed a deal to build a pipeline across to a port in Syria where OIL and GAS will flow to Europe. Alarm bells rang across Turkey,US and the reactionary Persian gulf monarchs who see this as a threat to their key investments in the region. So Assad had to go - at all cost. And here we are today. I bet if Assad agrees to give them a piece of the cake, all these "activists" pumping propaganda from Syria will immediately be labelled "terrorist", droned out or put of US no-fly-lists.
There's more to say but will leave it here for others to take over..Peace to all!!!
Posted by: Zico | Jul 6, 2012 3:14:32 AM | 84
Agree with Hu Bris.
Hope you can think up a joke if it makes you feel better.
Posted by: DM | Jul 6, 2012 3:29:16 AM | 85
"The cutting remark comes later."
Oh, you tease!
and as for "Was the U.S. behind the Paraguayan coup?"
Well DUH! ya think?
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 6, 2012 3:55:40 AM | 87
Now If you could name a SA Coup that the US was NOT behind, THAT might be newsworthy ;-)
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 6, 2012 3:57:02 AM | 88
"I'll believe Wikileaks when Assange dumps everything he knows about Israel..The sh*tbag never criticizes Israel "
I stopped paying any attention to wikileaks as soon as I realised that they actually didn't reveal anything I hadn't already worked out for myself, or read elsewhere, long beforehand.
Like I said earlier - any actual new material was so inconsequential as to be utterly useless.
Why anyone would treat St Julian of the Sacred Wiki with anything more than ridicule is beyond my ken.
But then I've been told several times now that I'm nowhere near as perceptive as theose believers in the true divinity of the "One True Julian "™, so that might explain it, eh?
"Lucky ME!" is all I can can say to that
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 6, 2012 4:07:33 AM | 89
You True Believers know absolutely NOTHING, (Zero, Nada, Ziltch) about the source(s) suppossedly supplying wikileaks with these cables etc.
Yet because it comes through the Sacred Wikileaks you all accord it some sort of "immediately elevated above bullshit" status.
If the exact same info were fed to you through another source, printed in the National Enquirer for instance, you'd probably (rightly) not touch it with a 10-foot barge pole
Actually I'd bet the National Enquirer has a higher Signal-to-Bullshit ratio than the Church of the Sacred Wiki
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 6, 2012 4:13:17 AM | 90
"WL provides supporting evidence in that process."
Here's a counterpoint, using WL:
Was the U.S. behind the Paraguayan coup?
So basically the first example you can provide is one where anyone with even half a working braincell could have easily guessed for themselves
So it's just like I pointed out earlier, and essentially you are just confirming what I said earlier
1) Nothing WL ever reveals has ever damaged the Empire in any real or meaningful fashion
since no one with any intelligence doubted even for a second that the US would have been involved in Lugo's ouster
2) Wikileaks never told any alert person anything they didn't already know that they actually really needed to know- and anything they didn't already know that might have been revealed to them by Wikileaks was of no fucking use whatsoever.
So thanks for confirming my earlier statements
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 6, 2012 4:40:26 AM | 91
Say good night Gracie.
Posted by: Biklett | Jul 6, 2012 5:10:38 AM | 93
I presume your latest communique was not the Joke which you promised us all earlier, right?
cos I'd hate to miss that! ;-)
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 6, 2012 5:43:17 AM | 94
Posted by: Walter Wit Man | Jul 5, 2012 12:11:48 PM | 42
some stories already coming out in australia media. the stories that show wiki's 'evenhandedness' in that both sides are embarrassed? western govts covert business dealings with Syria are part of the first batch that "embarrasses" western govts- not anything about how west is arming and training terrorist proxies to invade another m.e. land. maybe in the next batch???
yest you are right about the phony Juan Cole (CIA consultant) and Landis (sits on a syria regime change org for 'peace' or some such rubbish) etc etc
Posted by: vatick | Jul 6, 2012 5:44:40 AM | 95
*Actually I'd bet the National Enquirer has a higher Signal-to-Bullshit ratio than the Church of the Sacred Wiki*
some wit says that a good psyop is 99% sugar, its the 1% poison that's lethal
by this standard, wiki outght to be the most transparent psyop ever, its signal to bs [lol] ratio is at best a dismay 99% poison
so far its *street cred* all comes from dog n ponny shows like the aborted prosecution for alleged sex scandal, the current staged drama of attempted extradiction.
all this while he is living it up and going around the chat show circuits
Posted by: denk | Jul 6, 2012 5:45:41 AM | 96
>>> Do you lot even know anything about how a Disinformation conduit might operate? >>>
Hubris, I'm not looking forward to Wikileaks telling me something I already know, I'm hoping some of those revelations will be telling you new things that you didn't know about the close ties between the US and the Syrian regime. "Head in the sand" ia about those insisting to not look into Syria's past because they could discover that there are people in Syria that may rightfully feel oppressed by the regime. This has nothing to do with terrorists running all over Syria committing horrors like at Houla or at the funeral procession last week and it has nothing to do with Assad but with the regime. Had you ever heard about Syria's un-Club Med-like facilities at Mezzeh, Tadmor and Adra or about the CIA's rendition program at Damascus' Palestine Branch? It's amusing how Walter and others here think I'm preaching for the CIA.
Posted by: www | Jul 6, 2012 6:10:58 AM | 97
anybody who's been paying attention knows that fukusi has been busy taking out china's energy sources all over the world,
for example, the *messiah* himself had a hand in the coup in kenya, to thwart china's biz opportunity
but u wouldnt know these from wiki,
nothing about the fukus skullduggery in kenya, sudan, yemen, congo etc
nothing about africom's fake wot to recolonise the *dark continent*
zero, nein, nada, zilch,
see, according to wiki
*forget the west, china is the new evil colonial overlord in africa *!!
if i m uncle scam
i surely wouldnt mind having such a *whistleblower* by my side
Posted by: denk | Jul 6, 2012 6:28:15 AM | 98
"Hubris, I'm not looking forward to Wikileaks telling me something I already know, I'm hoping some of those revelations will be telling you new things that you didn't know about the close ties between the US and the Syrian regime."
But even you seem to admit that Wikileaks has just been telling you stuff you already know
3W - Like most here (I'm guessing) I already know about the Brits and the Yanks (and Canadians?) kidnapping people and sending them to Damascus to be Tortured.
Anyone that paid any attention to the copious volumes of info already made available and easily accesible, both on the web and in the more traditional formats in use by the MSM, about the euphemistically named 'rendition' already knows about this stuff, and has had easy access to such info for years now.
So there REALLY is nothing new about any such info - IF that is what the dubious Wikileaks has chosen to 'reveal' this time
So imho that is exactly how a disinformation conduit might go about establishing it's bona fides - that and telling us some silly useless little tidbits of 'new' info that really amount to nothing at all
Syria's past because they could discover that there are people in Syria that may rightfully feel oppressed by the regime
Oh I'm sure there ARE, many of them - and equally there's probably many of those having seen what happened in Libya and what has been happening in their own State, that would now prefer to stick with Bashir, and his promises of 'reform' rather than switch to the clearly psychopatic members of the FSA
Had you ever heard about Syria's un-Club Med-like facilities at Mezzeh, Tadmor and Adra or about the CIA's rendition program at Damascus' Palestine Branch?
It's amusing how Walter and others here think I'm preaching for the CIA.<
yes, almost as amusing as certain silly leftists chucking every "conspiracy theory" they could think of into a rant just cos I dared question the motives of St Julian and his Church of the Wiki, and the sanity/intelligence of those that lionise them both
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 6, 2012 7:01:40 AM | 99
That last one deserves highlighting - it's almost as if these cables (provided they are even genuine in the first place) are being written with one eye firmly on how they will play to the gallery when Wikileaks finally gets around to 'revealing' them, ain't it?
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/eo20101219a2.html (same as denks 2nd link - http://tinyurl.com/7jbfj3k)
"China found itself in the unwelcome WikiLeaks spotlight the week before last with sweeping claims against its "aggressive" policies in giving aid to Africa. Johnnie Carson, the U.S. assistant secretary of state for Africa, called China "a pernicious economic competitor with no morals" about propping up rogue regimes.
"China is not in Africa for altruistic reasons," he said. "China is in Africa primarily for China. A secondary reason for China's presence is to secure votes in the United Nations from African countries," he claimed."
gosh - imagine that, eh?
one can imagine the cries around the White House conference tables: - "those dirty bastards!! That's OUR Job!!"
Talk about "Ham-acting", eh?
Posted by: Hu Bris | Jul 6, 2012 7:22:58 AM | 100