June 17, 2012
Google: Egypt's Husni Mubarak Presidency To Continue
Egypt elects a new president. If the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces allows the Muslim Bortherhood candidate Morsi to win, they will issue an annex to the constitution that makes him powerless. If the former air force general and last prime minister Shafiq wins, the annex to the constitution may grant him some power.
But according to Google translate neither will matter.
Translated from English to Arabic:
|I will respect Egypt's future president
||وأنا أحترم الرئيس المصري حسني مبارك في المستقبل
Translating the last phrase back from Arabic to English:
|وأنا أحترم الرئيس المصري حسني مبارك في المستقبل
||And I respect Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in the future
We are pretty sure that - in this case - Google's translation is absolutly correct. It doesn't matter who wins because the military and SCAF will rule until the next phases of the revolution wash them away. Meanwhile some voters have sad fun spoiling their ballots.
Posted by b on June 17, 2012 at 10:47 AM | Permalink
Huh? Where did this "i will respect the future president come from?"
The first should be translated:
"I respect Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak in the future."
The second reads:
"I respect Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak
in the future."
The difference is a carriage return...
Posted by: JohnH | Jun 17, 2012 11:08:57 AM | 1
Posted by: Alexander | Jun 17, 2012 11:11:19 AM | 2
Checking out the screenshots of voters speaking their minds on their paper ballots, I really, really, really miss paper ballots!
Write-in's are so limited on computer voting machines....
Egyptians had two choices somewhat close to the extremes of the politiy's views.
We in the USA will have two peas in a Corporatist pod to choose from.
Which is worse? Discuss, compare and contrast. (Heh.)
Posted by: jawbone | Jun 17, 2012 1:40:42 PM | 3
At least you in the US don't have to worry about the campaign, the results are rigged anyhwo. That's the only advantage I can see with anonymous electronic voting machines. I can't think of any other democracy in the world where the voting results are so easy to manipulate. It only has to keep within the realistic bounds of the previous opinion polls, which are also manipulated.
Posted by: Alexander | Jun 17, 2012 1:49:49 PM | 4
Yeah, and by the way, you wonder who is going to win this election in the US? It's Obama, I guarantee it.
Posted by: Alexander | Jun 17, 2012 1:52:05 PM | 5
I respect Obama/Romney/Bush III/IV in the future...
Posted by: JohnH | Jun 17, 2012 2:53:26 PM | 6
And muslim brotherhood thought US and Saudi will give them power if they promised to play nice
Posted by: nikon | Jun 17, 2012 8:26:04 PM | 7
Mitt Romney was seen at this year's Bilderberg group meeting
Posted by: nikon | Jun 17, 2012 8:29:07 PM | 8
Here's a marvellous example of the sort of "journalism" that makes The Guardian irrelevant.
Who it was written by is unknown but Jason Burke lends his by-line to this classic farago of Mossad tips and CIA lies with a strong dose of Anglo-Indian nonsense mixed in with them:
"A multinational investigation into bomb plots targeting Israeli diplomats earlier this year has produced the clearest evidence yet that Iran was involved, illustrating the risks to the west if it fails to reach detente with Tehran over its nuclear weapons programme.
Talks on Iran's nuclear aspirations resume in Moscow on Monday, and western intelligence officials have told the Guardian the price of failure could be high. With Israel refusing to rule out military action if diplomacy fails, intelligence officials fear the volley of attacks carried out by Iranian operatives show Tehran is capable of an asymmetric response. Though the officials admit that predictions are extremely difficult to make, their concerns are based on investigations into plots against Israeli diplomats in India, Thailand and Georgia in February which point to the involvement of Iran.
In India, local agencies told ministers a bomb attack which badly injured the wife of the Israeli military attaché in New Delhi in February was the work of an Iranian "security entity". Their conclusions have not previously been made public and Indian officials have made significant efforts to avoid blaming Tehran, an ally and oil supplier.
The governments of Georgia and Thailand, which both uncovered bomb plots on the day of the Delhi attack, have also not officially blamed Iran....(it goes on. And The Guardian which is itching for another Iraq in Iran gives it top billing.
Posted by: bevin | Jun 17, 2012 8:33:09 PM | 9
Midnite here on the West Coast and I see that the MB candidate just announced that he has won. That should twist the military's underpants in a knot. Good political move on their part it seems to me. Everyone knows that the election is fixed but this move should throw them out of balance just a bit.
The next phase of the Egyptian people's struggle is now beginning. I do hope that the progressive secular forces, workers and peasants can build an alliance with the more enlightened forces within the MB that can now undermine the military junta. If not there really could be some kind of stage 4 terror that b mentioned before. In any case this rebellion is not over. Even if the military high command succeeds in holding on to power it will only be over the bodies of many already mobilized rebels.
Posted by: ToivoS | Jun 18, 2012 3:15:15 AM | 10
"Egypt's ruling military has issued a declaration granting itself sweeping powers, as the country awaits results of presidential elections."
"It has issued amendments to last year's Constitutional Declaration that will limit the powers of the next president and boost the role of the armed forces.
It will also have a strong influence over the writing of Egypt's new constitution."
"Postpones new parliamentary elections until new constitution is approved"
Egypt's military grants itself sweeping powers
Posted by: Rod | Jun 18, 2012 4:24:29 AM | 11
Sorry,Obomba is toast.Guaranteed,now that he gave US the finger with his special interest vote procuring,lets see, 4% gay,0% illegal aliens(can't vote)and splitting the wacko Zios vote,1%,only by appealing to women in gender division,could he possibly pull it off,but I don't think women are that dumb,and our panderer is gone,thank you very much.
Romney sucks also,but at least some critiques by the monsters fickle press would ensue,instead of this media hagiography we have now.
As for Egypt,we aint seen nothing yet,stay tuned,the blood is gonna flow,and our monsters are on board the corpuscle express.
Israel owns US,and tells US to our face,and we just sit there,watching the monster.
Posted by: dahoit | Jun 18, 2012 9:41:54 AM | 12
A Muslim brotherhood win in Egypt will in no way cause the Egyptian Military any discomfort.
The Egyptian Military takes it's orders from elsewhere.
A Muslim brotherhood win is good for the US and good for Israel
Israel is already gearing up for the attack on the Sinai, an attack they will win as the bought and paid for Egyptian army (with US taxpayers dollars) will fall.
Many will die, to be sure.
NATO can't wait...
Posted by: Penny | Jun 18, 2012 11:32:43 AM | 13
As always, Pennys thoughts on this too are interesting, and regarding the Egyptian military, might unfortunately be surprisingly accurate.
Posted by: Alexander | Jun 18, 2012 12:22:47 PM | 14
Someone from the Shafik campaign announced the result as 52% Morsi, 51.5% Shafiq
Not that it really matters: The head of council advising SCAF says 'new president is a transitional one for few months only'
They make the rules up as they go.
Some thoughts by Egyptian revolutionary blogger and activist Sandmonkey: Chapter’s end!
I have resolved, many months ago, that this revolution is continuing with or without me, and that the clash with the state and the MB is inevitable and coming, and that it won’t stop anytime soon, mainly because the problems that sparked it are real, and no one has attempted to fix them, and they are getting worse by the minute. Whether we like it or not, whether we live to see it or not, this fight will continue. Many people keep saying that there is no turning back, without actually understanding what that means. Well, it means that there is no exit strategy for this mess, no quick fix solution, and no way out without serious compromises by all parties, which will not happen without political or real clashes, and won’t stop until equilibrium is reached. For better or worse, what we had before won’t happen again. This ship has sailed. Understand what that means, and make your choices accordingly, but know this: Fight or Flight, there is no going back. The next Chapter begins now.
Posted by: b | Jun 18, 2012 12:57:30 PM | 15
Alexander @ 14:
He who pays the piper calls the tunes
Since the Egyptian military is largely funded by the US and Saudi Arabia.... well, you can see where I am going.
It looks as if, using the pretext of "instability" and the boogie man of the compromised Muslim Brotherhood as a "threat" Israel is prepping to launch an attack on Egypt
Posted by: Penny | Jun 18, 2012 1:03:40 PM | 16
Penny, I think Israeli placement of tanks in the demilitarized zone, in violation if camp David, is likely a warning to to the scaf that they had better get the rable back in line.
That said, they are a very expansionist power and would love to steal Sinai again.
Posted by: lysander | Jun 18, 2012 2:28:06 PM | 17
The Israeli placement of tanks is a direct breach of the peace agreement.
That's quite an action to take to as a 'warning'
Lysander, I hope to be wrong. But, taking into consideration the covetous nature of Israel towards the Sinai and the very strategic global position that would become Israel's if they get that control.....
Posted by: Penny | Jun 18, 2012 2:41:10 PM | 18
Penny, I'm not saying you are wrong. That May be what will happen. But it almost seems coordinated with scaf's dismissal of parliament and revising the constitution.
I'm not sure Mubarak and his ilk were acting solely for bribes. There was likely a threat involved as well. Scaf May feel they are acting to avoid an Israeli attack. It is the logic placed on the Palestinian authority: it's their job to make sure Palestinians cause no harm to Israel.
I don't discount an Israeli attack. But it if they did it now they would be dispensing with any pretense that Egypt started it.
They are usually keen to do that, but they have grown bolder in recent years.
Posted by: lysander | Jun 18, 2012 3:09:18 PM | 19
Dang! Israel placing tanks closer to Egyptian Sinai border, breaking terms of peace treaty, per Penny.
US Dept. of Defense (not State) announcing it has plans in place for interfering internally in Syria, due to declaration of status being civil war.
Is the Peace Prize Nobel Laureate Obama trying to bring war to the entire Middle East? As prelude to taking on Iran, or somehow one big smash and grab?
I don't know enough about how this is going to play out, but, obviously, with the nearly nonstop propaganda against Syria's government, something was being prepared for. The American populace won't like it, but, hey, those Syrians are such Bad Guys.
Will there be a flurry of propaganda against the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt to give Israel cover? Or...dang, who the hell knows?
Posted by: jawbone | Jun 18, 2012 4:31:58 PM | 20
I don't remember hitting Post, and I was just going to edit, to say:
imminent declaration of state of civil war in Syria.
Posted by: jawbone | Jun 18, 2012 4:34:03 PM | 21
I have to admit that I'm fascinated by the potential results of the Egyptian election. Is SCAF going to admit that Mursi won? Or are we going to hear that somehow Shafiq slid past to get to get the majority? My prediction is the latter.
I'm thinking of the consequences. SCAF has been saying recently that Shafiq is not their candidate. Big Joke, it's only to remove them from responsability, if they lose.
If Shafiq does slide past to be the winner, there are going to be a lot of accusations of cheating. which would not be the case if Mursi won.
Posted by: alexno | Jun 18, 2012 4:37:07 PM | 22
Egypt MPs to convene in Tahrir Square if parliament's doors remain shut:
Members of Egypt’s dissolved Islamist-led parliament on Monday threatened to convene in Cairo’s Tahrir Square if they were barred from entering the parliament building.
Members of the Muslim Brotherhood’s Freedom and Justice Party (FJP) and the Salafist Nour Party, along with several independent MPs, have vowed to hold a sit-in in the flashpoint square to express their rejection of the “counter-revolution,” which, they say, “has been exposed by recent moves by Egypt’s ruling Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF).”
Is anybody else reminded of the Tennis Court Oath [Serment du jeu de paume]?
Posted by: lysias | Jun 18, 2012 6:51:57 PM | 23
Penny #18, nothing about tanks in the Egypt-Israel agreement, it only mentions the specific areas that are demilitarized (on Egyptian side ranging from 12 to 40 km from the border and 3 km on the Israeli side) and it limits the number of soldiers that each country can have within the zone. It talks of one division allowed for Egypt and 4 battalions for Israel and this would include their equipment such as tanks and so on.
Posted by: www | Jun 19, 2012 2:09:12 AM | 24
Someone from the Shafik campaign announced the result as 52% Morsi, 51.5% Shafiq
Actually that was a mistake by a Western journalist; what the Shafiq campaign man said was that Shafiq was winning by between 51.5 and 52%.
Shows you still read the Guardian, b.
Posted by: alexno | Jun 19, 2012 2:11:17 AM | 25
b #15, your link that was supposed to be to the Sandmonkey is actually a link to a LRB article on the UK's overthrow of Iran's Mossadegh.
Posted by: www | Jun 19, 2012 2:57:21 AM | 26
Alexno, I'm also still reading the Guardian. It has always been a good source about what Israel has been doing to the Paletinians and now about what is appearing as a failed revolution in Egypt. From last Sunday:
'Down with the next Egyptian president'
Whoever is declared the next president of Egypt will not be the person most Egyptians want
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 17 June 2012
The man who will be declared president of Egypt shortly will not be the president Egyptians want. We are a nation of 85 million. Fifty million of us have a vote. How many will have voted for this president?
... Unsurprisingly, when the time came for parliamentary elections, the electorate, feeling tricked and wrong-footed, reduced its participation to about 50%. And now, clearly, the disillusionment with the mechanics of democracy under Scaf continues. This will be Scaf's proudest achievement: that it has disabused the country of any notion that the machinery of the existing state will deliver the system the majority long for.
The spectacle that we have in Egypt right now is everything that the people rejected in January last year. What Ahmad Shafiq and the generals bring is the Not Revolution.
... Right now, it seems that the coalition of the military, the power-brokers of the old regime and their foreign friends think they've won the battle for Egypt. They talk of the nonsense of the revolution being over – the interior ministry says that once the president is declared it will not tolerate protests, and stands ready to deal with them. But a tweet at 11.30pm last Thursday said: "Intermission for the elections, then we continue the revolution."
The revolution will continue because neither the old regime nor the Islamist trend in its current form are going to deliver "bread, freedom, social justice". Neither of them are going to validate the sacrifices made by the 1,200 young people murdered by the regime, the 8,000 maimed, the 16,000 court-martialled. As the weekend's spectacle unfolds, thousand of young men are in military jails, many of them on hunger strike.
Posted by: www | Jun 19, 2012 3:31:57 AM | 27
I think it's very misleading to equate Mubarak's rule with this military dictatorship. Mubarak, for all his faults, had a stabilising influence that the military is apparently incapable of reproducing. As Egyptians say themselves, the generals just don't know how to run the society, they try to manage everything like the army. I don't subscribe to any romantic theory that the masses have awakened (as if that could be the reason for the sharp rise of attacks of people's homes, on the top of all chaos and incompetence), and much less that the imperialists micromanage every step.
Posted by: Levantine | Jun 19, 2012 6:57:06 AM | 28
much less that the imperialists micromanage every step
Indeed, I believe the 0.1%, Bilderberger elite has lost it's grip, they can't possibly manage to keep control of a world in chaos, and various springs, which even if they are part instigationg these revolts, they can't ever hope to manage down to detail how they develop.
Posted by: Alexander | Jun 19, 2012 7:10:50 AM | 29
regarding tank movement "maneuvers which are barred by Jerusalem's peace treaty with Cairo." that is a direct quote from the news article
Regarding: www "It talks of one division allowed for Egypt and 4 battalions for Israel and this would include their equipment such as tanks and so on."
From my post and bear in mind this is all older information from May 2/2012 and May 06/2012 "Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) gave emergency call up orders to six reserve battalions"
If you are correct and Israel is allowed 4 batallions then the six reserve batallions already called up (with 16 more one the ready) would exceed the peace treaty and put Israel in breach of said peace treaty. Along with the additional tanks.
Additionally:"Israel needs its army in place when it attacks Iran"
Israel is preparing for war and making no bones about it.
Posted by: Penny | Jun 19, 2012 7:40:37 AM | 30
A regional war, or worse, could be touched off by escalating troop movements. But when they make their move, the Israelis are certainly counting on coordination with US. I'm afraid the aggression is unfolding as planned. The commitment to escalate is built in, no doubt, as far as the military planners of this fiasco are concerned.
I can't help thinking of Barbara Tuchman's history of 1914, "The Guns of August".
Posted by: Copeland | Jun 19, 2012 8:15:35 AM | 31
Penny #30, those warmongers are definitely preparing something nasty. It could be for Iran, Syria, Sinai, or Lebanon or a combination of countries. Last year when things got hot at the Egyptian border, Israel and Egypt agreed to increase the border forces on both sides but no details were made public.
Posted by: www | Jun 19, 2012 8:19:17 AM | 32
It is a mistake to consider these mind games as being anything other than mind games.
I'm reckoning that Morsi will be declared the winner. If that had happened without any apparent resistance from the military (whose budget is huge, much larger than the coupla billion amerika tosses into the pot), egyptians would know they had been tricked. many already do sure, but that is like saying a few dems understand the true extent of oblamblam's sellout - most dems will still vote for that prick- similarly in Egypt if Morsi gets to be president after yet another seemingly failed attempt by the military to stymy the people's will; that will seem to give Morsi the imprimateur of legitimacy. And it will certainly re-legitimse the 'arab spring' amongst the masses in those nations whose governments are planning yet another armed colonisation of an ME nation in the name of 'freedom'.
The local cia agent of influence was on tv here this morning telling us that amerika was 'talking sternly to scaf to get them to back down'.
As for the israelis, if they have stationed more than they are permitted to under camp david, this is just more schoolyard bullyboy tactics designed to force a confrontation with a newly elected Morsi. Morsi will be forced to ask them to withdraw which will then reinforce the zionist meme of the poor little jews being surrounded by nazi killers among their legions of deluded supporters.
I cannot see israel easily defeating Egypt if it came down to yer actual shooting n bombing war. Even if they won the idf would be in no state to threaten iran for quite a few years.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 19, 2012 6:26:11 PM | 33
Debs, I worry that all the equipment sold/given to Egypt by the US is designed to fail in a war against Israel. About a year or two ago we heard that the Turkish military had for the first time changed the IFF system in their fighter aircraft so as not to read Israeli aircraft as "friend." I suspect Egypt has not made that change so all of its F-16s would be nothing but targets in the air.
I hope and pray I'm wrong.
Also IIRC, the entire eastern two thirds of Sinai is demilitarized so the Israelis can just walk through it. The western third I think can have one mechanized infantry division.
In a way that might be for the best. It means the Egyptian army would not have to maneuver in the open desert against the IDF. They can dig in in the defensible western part. That would at least deny the Israelis control of the Suez canal.
Lastly, there is no USSR to help Egypt rebuild and recover where the Israelis can still rely on the US for everything.
Israel's main incentive not to fight Egypt is that it would put their puppets in Jordan and KSA in very awkward positions and it would totally destroy the Sunni vs Shia' narrative they want to build. But the lure of retaking Sinai might be too much to resist.
Posted by: Lysander | Jun 19, 2012 11:01:57 PM | 34
Lysander, that's really the crux of it. If we think this through and Israel does invade the Sinai it wouldn't matter who was in power, that would mean war with Egypt and if you are correct the weapons amerika has sold Egypt did fail, well that would destroy not only Israel's alliances in the ME (overt and nudge, nudge wink wink ones) a failure of US arms and equipment would spell the end of the US's standing in the region plus be the final nail into amerika's economy.
I know amerikans are sold on the notion that these arms n munitions are all 'given' as some sort of aid package, but the reality is the tab is picked up by Saudi, Kuwait, and even Iraq supplying oil which amerika pays for by bartering armaments in lieu of cash.
The whole point of those countries buying alla that expensive shit which most never plan on using is to create an illusion of invincibility That means a massive fail of amerikan technology in Egypt would seriously threaten the stability of all the countries signed up for them. Not just in the ME either.
Even if the Saudi princes had previously been read into the scam, they wouldn't have any choice but to ditch amerika as arms supplier. Then a newly resurgent Russia who is just getting into the swing of supplying those ME nations who aren't in amerika's back pocket with guns n aircraft would fly straight into Cairo and Riyadh with their order books open.
As you said yerself the whole delicately constructed sectarian conflict house of cards would fall by the wayside throughout the ME if the zionists tried to annex Sinai.
Sure israel's leaders are swimming in hubris and it will be just such a stupidity that eventually brings the zionists undone, but amerika still has a few realists in positions of power who would pull the pin on an invasion if it looked set to happen.
It will take another decade or so of amerikan insolvency when they simply no longer have any cards to play anywhere, before israel will get away with attempting something this asinine.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 20, 2012 3:39:55 AM | 35
Lysander @ 34
I forgot about that. If a friendly is recognized the weapons will fail.
I read this previously. Allegedly in Gaza, Hamas got some weapons that failed to work against Israeli attacks, because Israel is a friend.
If I can find that I will bring the link here..
Should Israel launch an attack, IMO they will, Egyptian equipment supplied by America and Saudi Arabia will most definitely recognize a friendly and fail
Posted by: Penny | Jun 20, 2012 8:29:57 AM | 36
and it ties nicely in to what you are saying about Egyptian military equipment
Here it is
"Hamas sources said the Islamic military has acquired the Stinger man-portable air defense system. The sources said the Stingers were acquired from smugglers in Egypt's Sinai Peninsula in 2008 and deployed in the 22-day war against Israel in January 2009.
"We were disappointed by them, and they were found to have been useless," a Hamas source said.
The source said Hamas smuggled four Stinger systems in 2008. The source said the Hamas military deployed the Stingers against Israel Air Force AH-64 Apache attack helicopters during strike missions in the northern Gaza Strip.
"Our gunners couldn't fire the weapon," the source recalled. "A notice came up on the display saying 'friendly aircraft.'"
Posted by: Penny | Jun 20, 2012 8:50:12 AM | 37
Penny, thanks. I'm no military expert, but I didn't think IFF systems would be a factor for ground equipment. Anyone who knows better, please chime in. I still think its possible for Egypt to defend the western third of Sinai long enough for the Israelis to decide it isn't worth it. But of course we would be depending on the same traitorous generals running Egypt right now. But If they don't even try to put up a fight, I doubt they will be able to hold power in Egypt, so maybe that would be an incentive.
Debs, the KSA and Gulf puppets but weapons because that is what they are told to do. Throughout most its existence KSA has tried to hide its blatant services to zionism. (Nasser had them pegged back in the 60's but not everyone understood it.) The Saudis wanted to avoid having to act in public in such a way as to make the conspiracy obvious and it used to be that the US respected that. It didn't want to kill the goose laying the golden eggs.
In recent years, its like they don't care as much anymore. Still, an Israeli attack on Egypt would force Egypt to turn to the only country that would try to help: Iran. That would really scare the Saudis if the largest Sunni nation in the region became allies with the largest Shia nation, while the "custodian" of the two holy places tried so obviously to stab them in the back.
Posted by: Lysander | Jun 20, 2012 8:54:12 AM | 38
Great info guys, with US software in much of the military hardware, they would be useful only as long as the US wants it to. A point to consider when the gov in my country are getting some JSF airplanes.
Posted by: Alexander | Jun 20, 2012 9:21:01 AM | 39
>>> A point to consider when the gov in my country are getting some JSF airplanes.>>>
Why would your country that doesn't have any enemies, need the very expensive JSF when its current small fleet of F16s has been adequately serving its NATO duties?
Posted by: www | Jun 20, 2012 11:52:37 AM | 40
The only place Gadaffi's weaponry went was straight to the rebels in Syria. Or into the hands of "al quaeda" Or Boko Harum or whoever else NATO is naming their front groups as
Russian weapons give deniability to NATO backed rebels, it allows them to create the perception of "clean hands"
Posted by: Penny | Jun 20, 2012 12:07:03 PM | 42
your linked article does nothing to bolster your assertion.
NO Hezbollah or Hamas mentioned anywhere. Though it does reinforce what I had said..
'Defeated in battle, Moammar Gadhafi's army left behind armories brimming with weapons, and the rebels have helped themselves."
And we know the rebels, many of them, made there way to Syria
And we know a ship was stopped in Lebanon brimming with arms from Libya.
Posted by: Penny | Jun 20, 2012 12:14:15 PM | 43
www @ 40
Norway are buying somewhere around 40 - 50 American Joint Strike Fighters, the single biggest investment ever by the Norwegian government. In a competition between the swedish and the Eurofighetr, and the US JSF planes, in a corrupted decision, the Norwegian labour party (Ap) chose the American - with promises of mutual purchases from NAMMO and other military equipment supplyers in Norway. Its a dirty business, and a lot of money, and a lot of money both on the table, and under the table.
Posted by: Alexander | Jun 20, 2012 12:36:19 PM | 44
Those JSF planes are lumpy pieces of shit that can only be kept in the air with some intensive cycle-intensive software, and I suspect the Pentagon can anytime send an encrypted packet to the planes computer and make it go down anytime they want. I wouldn't trust that piece of shit with my luggage.
Posted by: Alexander | Jun 20, 2012 12:40:09 PM | 45
Anyone remember 1990 the first gulf war? The fools and weak-kneed asskissers who got into power in Russia after Breznev's death, were persuaded to give up Iraq's 'friendly' codes to the amerikans so Bush1 could hit the Iraqi airforce on the ground. This was despite strong opposition from both Russian military and their arms industry.
Prior to 1990 Russia supplied arms to nearly as many ME markets as amerika.
The result was predictable Russians couldn't give MIGs away after all the Iraqi airforce got knocked out on the first day, it signalled the end of Russia's arms business in its biggest market.
Now amerika can give up its 'friendly' codes to israel nothing stopping it; but if it did all that would happen is that amerika would lose most of its major markets in the area.
Don't let the propaganda fool you Saudi and Egypt buy from amerika because the arrangement suits them and their elites not because they 'have' to, anything can change and the blatant alliance with israel to attack Egypt by rendering its military hardware useless would be a gamechanger. No one likes to be shown as weak and humiliated if Obama did that he could forget about any defense pacts across the ME since amerika had just broken a major one in a public and undeniable way - for what?
The Sinai? You've got to be kidding because not only are amerika gonna lose the biggest and best paying market for their arms, and in the process israel would dip out too. Israel needs those cross subsidies from the big arab defense contracts that amerika steers their way prolly more than amerika does.
This action would let Russian arms back in, who this time would bid offering guarantees on total code security thereby denying amerika the chance to pull that stunt at some time in the future when it would matter more-not that I believe they would do it even if the Saudis went to war with amerika. Lockheed & Northrop-Grumman etc would jack up no end n scramble their squadrons of senators onto any attempt to weaken their business model and revenue stream.
I realise that thinking has become distorted around here and many have conflated zionism, a means to an end, with the end itself.
We're talking about a fascist state where all needs are suborned to the wants of the major capitalists and those gun spruikers are the top of the major league.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 20, 2012 4:56:58 PM | 46
>>> Norway are buying somewhere around 40 - 50 American Joint Strike Fighters>>>
As I said, your country has no enemies and the few F16s it has are more than adequate for American ordered pounding missions on defenseless countries; the over 600 bombs it dropped over Libya must have killed a few civilians and the F35, had it been around, wouldn't have killed them in any nicer way. NATO is still around to help with those defense contracts. If you think Norway's got s problem with the JSF purchase, you should read about the scandal it created in Canada. At a current unit price of about $300 million, it's a piece of garbage:
From a couple of months back
From a couple of days back
Posted by: www | Jun 21, 2012 1:25:00 AM | 47
Penny #43, the info came from several different articles. Some said that stolen arms ended up with Hamas and Hezbollah. Nobody knows how much of this is true and how much is plain Israeli paranoia. This ship you mentioned miraculously slipped through the UN patrol off Lebanon's coast, through Israel's patrol all over the Med and through the US and Israeli satellite surveillance systems. The cargo destined for the Syrian rebels surely had something to do with all these slippings.
Posted by: www | Jun 21, 2012 1:57:07 AM | 48
>>> Nasser had them pegged back in the 60's >>>
Lysander #38, it went way back to 1919 when they offered to give Palestine away but the deal fell through because it went against British plans for the area.
Posted by: www | Jun 21, 2012 2:12:04 AM | 49
Debs... @ 46
"Egypt buy from amerika because the arrangement suits them and their elites not because they 'have' to"
If they "buy" from America you can bet it is because they have to.
Egypt is the second biggest recipient of US "aid" in the ME
Second only to Israel.
Their "aid" is provided for them to buy weapons.
Therefore they have to. No choice involved
A delay or a cut in $1.3 billion in military aid to Egypt risked breaking existing contracts with American arms manufacturers that could have shut down production lines in the middle of President Obama’s re-election campaign and involved significant financial penalties, according to officials involved in the debate.
Since the Pentagon buys weapons for foreign armed forces like Egypt’s, the cost of those penalties — which one senior official said could have reached $2 billion if all sales had been halted — would have been borne by the American taxpayer, not Egypt’s ruling generals.
You see Egypt has to buy weapons from the US. American just purchases and provided them.
Anyway....I have my own blog to work on.
Posted by: Penny | Jun 21, 2012 6:53:39 AM | 50
@ Penny I can't really discern if our disgreement is substantive or merely semantic. But I stand by what I said. It suits the egyptian military leaders to buy subsidised arms from amerika at the moment for a range of reasons, that is why they do it.
The moment it no longer suits those military leaders they will stop doing it. amerika blatantly siding with israel in a war caused by israel invading egyptian territory would cause the egyptian 'generals' to decide that the 'deal' wasn't worth it.
Sure the seppos probably have a few members of egyptian general staff who are 100% bought and paid for, but they don't own em all and those who continued to kiss a hand which publicly assisted in deaths of egyptian airmen fighting for their country, would have to resign or be 'sadated'.
This isn't new or restricted to egyptian generals - since roman times or hell, even since the days of the egyptian empire, dominant empires have over-estimated the cupidity of foreign soldiers who they believe they have 'bought'. amerika made this mistake in Vietnam and Iraq when they imagined their puppet generals would do as they were told, and they pushed those soldiers into situations where the soldiers couldn't avoid confronting the reality of their treason.
In both those cases that ignorant & greedy amerikan self-delusion caused amerika to lose, and lose big.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 22, 2012 9:59:02 PM | 51