October 20, 2011
Gaddahfi's Death Is Not The End Of The Fighting
First the news was that Gaddhafi had been captured alive in Sirte with two wounds in his legs.
Then the news was that he has been killed and a picture of what may be a dead Gaddhafi.
I guess it would have been too embarrassing for those revolution leaders and former Gaddhafi functionaries and for those "western" politicians (I am looking at you Sarkozy) who earlier embraced him to have him testify in court.
This will not be the end of the fighting in Libya. With Gaddhafi dead the various groups which made up this revolution will now fully turn to fighting each other over their share of the loot. Without a strong common leadership and without a common ideology the different interests of the people from Benghazi, Misurata, Tripoli and the south will be unable to agree on a new government structure. Additionally guerrilla and sabotage activities by Gaddhafi followers are likely to continue. This revolution then, like others, will eat its children.
I am sad for the people of Libya.
Posted by b on October 20, 2011 at 09:53 AM | Permalink
Funny how we as Westerners are gloating over his death.....Even the local sports talk show (FAN in NYC) had to make what I consider an inappropriate remark..
Posted by: georgeg | Oct 20, 2011 10:17:34 AM | 1
Yeah Sky News currently showing footage of Gaddaffi being dragged through the streets similar to the Black Hawk Down footage. It is fairly clear that it is him.
First question that I had was Sirte? Why the hell did he stay in Sirte? For months now the assumption was that he went into hiding in the lawless Southern deserts that make up the bulk of Libya. If not there then in the Western region under the control of the Warfalla clan which remained loyal and is linked to him through his wife. Why the hell did he go to Sirte knowing the city would be under-siege from every direction. The day Tripoli fell everyone knew that the rebels would move onto Sirte next.
Of course the whole situation is sickening. The NATO rebels did to Sirte what they accused Gaddaffi of planning in Benghazi. Pepe Escobar mentioned today that the situation in Sirte is so bad that the local imams have issued a decree allowing for dogs and cats to be eaten. I guess you won't hear about that in the "Responsibilty 2 Protect" friendly media.
Posted by: Colm O' Toole | Oct 20, 2011 10:21:33 AM | 2
In checking for news, found this article from 10/14 about Sufis being killed and their mosques attacked. This is sad, but predicted.
And, why go to Sirte? I seem to recall Gaddaffi said he would die fighting in Libya, so why not the place where he was born? Symbolism is important.
A commenter on WNYC, NYC's public radio station, said it would be important for the revolutionaries to kill Gaddaffi themselves (or be seen to have done so -- I doubt there will be an autopsy) rather than have NATO kill him by raining death from the sky. For future PR reasons. And, again, symbolism is important.
Posted by: jawbone | Oct 20, 2011 10:40:22 AM | 3
Pepe Escobar mentioned today that the situation in Sirte is so bad that the local imams have issued a decree allowing for dogs and cats to be eaten.
How callous of them....do they not care a wit about the Chinese Restaurant Owners who have to make a living?
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Oct 20, 2011 10:42:05 AM | 4
I doubt there will be an autopsy
Especially if they issue a decree including humans with those poor cats and dogs.
World....meet your future....it's coming to a theater near all of us in the not too distant future.
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Oct 20, 2011 10:44:10 AM | 5
He is dead? (haven’t heard/seen news for 24 hrs)...One had gotten used to thinking of him as invincible. He always said he would go down fighting and would die at home.
Lybians can say good bye to health care, free studies, marriage stipends, etc. Westerners like to say that was all paid for by oil revenues, which is in part true, they sure help, but contrast with Saudi, Venezuela or Nigeria. Lybia under Khadafi had a functioning central bank and had no (or almost no) sovereign debt. None of its citizens / municipalities / local entities had significant debts of any kind, and ‘never’ to foreign entities. (Compare with Iceland or Greece..) I guess Austerity measures had to be implemented at bomb and gun point...
Lybia did not join the Bank for International Settlements, the hmm err, Bank of (private) Banks. Afaik, Iraq was in the same position in 2002. Khadafi refused Dollar and Euro hegemony and was looking to an African monetary Union. -> Sarkoléon’s Mediterranean countries new-Union-or-Alliance-thingie was a failed attempt at preventing such independence. (The US-EU managed to take over some of the naive ex-USSR countries.)
Posted by: Noirette | Oct 20, 2011 11:39:22 AM | 6
maybe, maybe not. it is funny how people do not believe words but believe photos and videos. photos have been changed for over a century, famously Russian photographs moving historic figures out of events. you can do that with videos too, you have to be good, but you can. Gaddafi looked too young and relaxed on what I saw, I have no intention to look through more of them, I cannot stand blood. probably it is true anyway.
ex-rebels now claim all of the really central regime figures were or are about to be caught/killed, like security chief, sons, if true, it would be the height of incompentence or suicidal to stay together with the back to the sea. could be they were at a political dead end. could be the main bomb proof bunker was in Sirte.
could be it is a provocation to find them. basically we all know nothing.
it is just that this is a continuation of the "official" news that he is on his way to Venezuela, confirmed by the British government.
so expect to be lied to.
it would make sense for Libyans to stop fighting. however if the fight continues, which side will NATO pick?
Posted by: somebody | Oct 20, 2011 11:41:45 AM | 7
This all seems extremely suspicious, Probably a negotiated settlement for NATO to end bombing.
Posted by: nikon | Oct 20, 2011 11:42:14 AM | 8
Apparent #gaddafi timeline: convoy hit by NATO,loyalists take wounded chief into drain for protection.NTC troops get him
Posted by: b | Oct 20, 2011 12:07:02 PM | 9
And this is how Sirte looks now.
Posted by: b | Oct 20, 2011 12:08:28 PM | 10
Video of captured Gaddhafi, still alive then.
Posted by: b | Oct 20, 2011 12:13:31 PM | 11
I wonder how grateful all the Euro & US victims of the global financial meltdown will be that their leaders were so busy daydreaming about destroying pissant non-threatening countries that they forgot to rein in the banksters?
Still, at least now everyone can go to Hell in the same handbasket as the 'liberated' Libyans.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 20, 2011 12:15:44 PM | 12
Picture of Sirte looks just like Iraq.
Posted by: Noirette | Oct 20, 2011 1:42:36 PM | 14
Can’t resist, sorry:
Obama speech, slightly amended:
Today the Gvmt of the US announced the death of Obama, myself. This marks the end of a long and painful chapter for the ppl of the US.
Who now have the opportunity to determine their own destiny in a new and democratic US.
For four decades - the regime ruled the ppl with an iron fist, basic human rights were denied, civilians were detained, beaten and killed, the US wealth was squandered, the enormous potential of the US ppl was held back and terror was used as a political weapon.
Today we can definitively say, ...the last major regime’s strongholds have fallen...the New Gvmt is consolidating control over the country, and one of the world’s longest serving dictators (aka despotic regimes) is no more.
One year ago, the notion of a free US seemed impossible. But then the US ppl rose up and demanded their rights. (...) the world refused to stand idly by...a call for help from the US ppl...and our friend and allies stopped the US forces in their tracks.
Posted by: Noirette | Oct 20, 2011 4:52:23 PM | 16
hmm. the videos I've seen so far don't clearly show enough for me to conclude that it is really Gaddhafi. IMHO this is another OBL psuedo-assassination dog&pony show. If they have his body, let's see it. Let them lay it out on a slab somewhere so everybody can take a good look, including journalists who aren't entirely in the Qatari/Nato pocket.
I got an email of a story today, in Espanol, which claims facts in the writer's possession indicate that this is a charade:
Início da mensagem encaminhada
De: Revista Caracola
Data: October 20, 2011 12:55:26 EDT
Assunto: [Revista Caracola] Fotos de Gaddafi "muerto" denunciadas como falsas
Responder A: Revista Caracola
Revista Caracola ha publicado un nuevo artículo, 'Fotos de Gaddafi "muerto"
denunciadas como falsas'
whatreallyhappened.comLos medios de comunicación pro-Gaddafi califican como
"nada más que rumores" los informes que afirman que el coronel ha sido
asesinado. Según el sitio web de televisión Al-Libiya, Muammar Gaddafi, "goza
de buena salud". El medio de comunicación también advierte contra las
imágenes falsas, de un Gaddafi muerto, que han aparecido en internet.
//SNIP, go to the URL for rest of post.
Posted by: kwibono | Oct 20, 2011 4:59:39 PM | 17
I have "accidentally" found readings about Mr Gaddafi when in Canada 25 years ago. I understood between lines that he was actually NOT a bad leader of his people...and then I thought of him as a man with ideal and expectation for the Arab region. That was not a bag thing!...many leaders including Western leaders had and have similar expectation. Now...with certain media portraying him as a criminal against humanity...I am still NOT convince he was a bad man to his people!
May he rest in Peace and history will later assess him (and also me)...correctly!
A woman in best of both Worlds!
Posted by: Nguyen | Oct 20, 2011 7:14:26 PM | 19
Did Gaddahfi undergo plastic surgery in recent weeks ? On all the pictures he looks much longer then he appeared during summer 2011.
Posted by: philippe | Oct 20, 2011 10:00:29 PM | 22
Cameron's enablers at the BBC put some disgracefully dishonest spin to air in the hours immediately following Gaddafi's reported demise. The most outlandish was a female, with a Cockney accent, who said that Gaddafi had wrecked Libya's education and health care systems.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 21, 2011 12:54:17 AM | 23
does anyone writing here actually 1) know any libyans? 2) have familiarity with libyan history? gaddafi was a despot. and was is the operative word. he is clearly dead and for those who need western reporters to prove it, there are plenty in the country who will view the body today. lindsey hilsum from channel 4 tweeted this morning that she was up early and heading to sirte and misrata. but no matter, there are multiple videos up on youtube, surely they weren't all photoshopped. why am i surprised that no one here seems to be aware that the libyan people rose up? and i wonder where you all as concerned about the decimation of misrata? that is not to say i applaud what has happened to sirte or that the thuwar have all handled themselves well, but there were 8 months previous to the fighting in sirte which resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of libyans and a repressive regime in place for 42 years prior. i know too many people who lost family members to gaddafi to not speak up. there is an overwhelming amount of work ahead of the libyans in disarming the thuwar, caring for the injured, resolving differences between islamic extremists and secularists, writing a constitution and setting up a government, restoring commerce, and revamping education and infrastructure. however, i have seen their commitment and perseverance and believe they will succeed.
Posted by: sharon | Oct 21, 2011 2:19:19 AM | 24
sharon, I hope for the best, this deadly conflict, however, could have been avoided by two sides, not just by one. don't you think it is ridiculous for people to suddenly refuse to talk and negotiate when they have shared government and responsibilities for a long time?
Everybody in the Transitional Libyan Governement except the Islamists was part of the Libyan system. Jalil was responsible for justice. If you say he was good at justice, you say Gaddafi's government was good at it. Gaddafi served for all kind of purposes, now he is gone people have to look at each other for responsibility.
From the start both sides said "it is victory or death", with that death for 50% of fighting Libyans seems guaranteed, or do you think one side can do all the losing? Do you think with "it is victory or death" one side can stop fighting? Do you really think there are two sides? How are the prospects of unity, do you think, when one part wants a strict Islamic society, and the other part Western freedom?
When people are divided on being Arab or African, Berber or Tuareg, Sufi or Salafi? I think Jalils assessement "We have moved into a political struggle with no boundaries," Jibril said, looking glum, rather than like a man rejoicing liberation. "The political struggle requires finances, organization, arms and ideologies," he said. "I am afraid I don't have any of this." http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2097333,00.html#ixzz1bOhDAheT is correct, now who in Libya has got finances, organization, arms and ideologies?
For some reason, Gaddafi took the decision to go back to Sirte, for the same reason Jalil probably will announce the liberation of Libya from Benghazi, and for the same reason, and because divisions will be fuelled by outside interests, if, if, if the TNC does not suddenly manage to be inclusive, it is likely that the fight in Libya will continue.
Posted by: somebody | Oct 21, 2011 3:10:24 AM | 25
Sharon seems to think NATO's Luftwaffe and a Freikorps composed of the dregs of international terrorism is a rising of the Libyan people. Compare what they did with their oil wealth, Sharon, bringing prosperity to all, with the way Britain and the US pissed theirs in the sand.
What is it about black women having their breasts cut off, Sharon, or black men being castrated, or the emptying of whole towns, that you find so inspiring? Or the gruesome lynching at the NTC Benghazi headquarters, whose YouTube video brought Camoron and Sarkovichy at the run to be photographed on the very spot? Nice girls like you may be turned on by a bit of rough, but please spare us the barbaric pomposity. UNSCR 1973 called for a no-fly zone, no troops on the ground, no supplying of arms, and every effort to find a peaceful settlement, all of which goes right over your head. How appropriate that you should bear a notorious war criminal's name.
Posted by: Bob Jackson | Oct 21, 2011 3:50:53 AM | 26
Libya was the most stupid intervention since Vietnam. It definitly beats Iraq and Afg. Maybe Not in terms of gravity but in stupidity.
To intervene in a civil war in favor of a weak fraction you don't even know is...nevermind. I hope for the people that their destiny is not that ill-fated as Somalias.
Posted by: c.k. | Oct 21, 2011 4:00:29 AM | 27
Sharon @ 24.
"i know too many people who lost family members to gaddafi to not speak up."
Tell us their names and addresses.
Then give us the names and addresses of the 1.3 million Iraqis murdered by Bush II, Cheney and Tony Bliar and explain how and why Gaddafi was worse.
And while you're at it, tell us what Obama, Cameron and Sarko did with Libya's cash reserves (which Gaddafi was multiplying while the West's leaders were complicit in deep-sixing their own economies).
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 21, 2011 5:35:50 AM | 28
this is getting fun now
does age change an ear
:)) I bet the above is photoshopped too, but I am too lazy to find out
"Disagreements appear to have broken out over what should be done with it. Under Islamic law Col Gaddafi should be buried within 24 hours of his death. Interim authorities want a secret burial but no decision has yet been taken on where it should take place - in Misrata, Sirte or out in the Libyan desert.
One official told the BBC that fighters from Misrata who captured the fugitive leader don't want to give up control over what happens to his body now."
Posted by: somebody | Oct 21, 2011 6:54:38 AM | 29
i know too many people who lost family members to gaddafi to not speak up.
They should be thankful......for the Marvelous Mug doing their Dirty Work for them. You don't kill people like the Mug, you need them....to make yourselves feel good.....and superior. If you kill off the Mugs of the world, you kill off your fabricated and juxtaposed Benchmarks....and then you're left with nothing but a mirror in which to see your putrid reflection, and the mob coming your way in the background. The West's Plutocrats are witnessing their own fate in the not too distant future........if their is one more plague, it will be by Pharoah's hand...meaning the decreed tactics now visited upon one's fabricated enemies will one day be used against those decreeing them. Who or what fills the rather substantial Power Vacuum after that remains a matter of conjecture, but most assuredly, it won't be a Shangri La.
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Oct 21, 2011 6:55:58 AM | 30
@29, the point of the post is that it doesn't matter whether he's dead or alive, Libya is now a purposefully failed state, and now the business of culling the population is at hand. It's a method....and a rather transparent one. Look at the American Indians, The Vietnamese, The Yugoslavians, and pretty much all the Africans. It almost seems as those it's a ritual blood sacrifice to Mammon it's so routine and predictable in its manner.
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Oct 21, 2011 7:00:46 AM | 31
georgeg, they need to describe him as mad, because he was saying uncomfortable truths from time to time.
as any good provocateur, Gaddafi managed to bring out the worst in people, and by staying in Sirte and by the many mobile videos now shown around has effectively achieved the following:
connected the French, NATO, Hillary Clinton to an obvious war crime,
brought the ex-rebels to the moral - Al Queida - equivalent of Somali troups dragging dead US soldiers through the streets, thereby demonstrating - the most effective, visually - he had a right to fight them.
I have no idea how the videos themselves play politically in Libya and Africa, I assume they are deeply offensive to religiously conservative people (I feel offended, and I am neither religios nor conservative, might be offensive to lots of people in US and Europe also
caught the TNC in obvious lies about something that they are supposed to control not cover up for
after this the TNC will have a problem in polite society. those stupid youngsters who had their faces filmed will have a problem, too.
Russia is already taking revenge for years of having to listen to advice on human rights by telling NATO, those fleeing people they killed were no threat to civilians, all the good will and political capital Obama had at the start is spent now, they sound as hypocritical - and will be as hated as - Bush.
it makes a difference if you kill anonymous tribal people by drone strikes in Afghanistan, or a viral marketing genius of a dictator.
Posted by: somebody | Oct 21, 2011 3:33:48 PM | 33
Where is that war mongering little pommie prick who was in here daily back in January insisting that the FukUS cartel would only protect civilians if allowed to establish a 'no fly zone' over Libya?
I can't be bothered calling him out on that lie but I seem to remember that back in 2008 when I called for celebrations because amerika and its bedwetting little english companion had been given the heave-ho from iraq, and we needed to celebrate Moqtada al-Sadr's victory over the forces of darkness, the same idjit joined up wit the usual band of amerikan exceptionalist conspiracy nuts who hang around here and claimed that it would never happen. They reckoned it was all a put up job that the invaders would never actually leave Iraq. guess what they were wrong on that too!
"Oh blam blam" is pretending to focus on the economy (iow bash the thousands of pissed off people jamming up his bosses' finance plants into insensibility) as a distraction from the reality that he has just done the one thing rethugs do that the dem half of the amerikan thug's party is never allowed to do; that is, lose a war. Hahahahahaha!
Of course it is not that funny. Not when 1.5 million Iraqis have been slaughtered butchered massacred, whatever verb you prefer, by these grubby little greedheads.
Even worse, my black arm band reminds me of the murder of one of the last great non-aligned leaders. Only Fidel remains and he can't last much longer.
Take heart the pricks are getting bigger which can only lead to a self absorbed mutual destruction of each and every one of em.
See the Ukrainian slapper who got about dressed as a medieval lady of the estate lording it over the peasants is on trial for destroying her nation. Yulia Tymoshenko rose to fame on the back of the amerikan designed Ukrainian colour revolution but Ukranians eventually learned the new boss was markedly worse than the old boss and want her head.
Imagine Libya where life was pretty damn good if you weren't an arab supremacist and beliebved that all citizens had a right to participate in the life of their nation. Once the people there discover it isn't all laughter and skittling niggers, thet the new western masters expect everyone including the average arab shit kicker to live a life of quiet servitude with no job, no free medical care and an education system whose access is dependant upon parental wealth, the things being done to Ms Tymoshenko will seem a mild slap with a damp note.
Somehow I doubt the englanders frenchmen and italians will permit a system of government that could have their puppet voted out. Not too worry there are now enough weapons in Libya to ensure oppositon forces won't be stuck with unwiedly and ineffective ballot boxes as their only means of ridding the nation of the sociopathic puppets for foreign greedheads that are just about to be
This is where the essential strategy of murdering the good Colonel will come back to bite them in the ass. Without the manufactured evil that surrounded Ghaddaffi to draw on FukUS will have no chance of getting UN permission to bomb the beejesus outta Libyans once more.
So the Libyans will win eventually but an awful lot of em are gonna have to die before the pernicious and grasping whitefellas are chased out again. Perhaps before then the penny will drop in Europe and europeans will grasp the essential reality around the run on the euro. That it has nothing to do with banks, credit downgrades, or Greek pensions and everything to do with USuk determination to ensure the dollar and it's erstwhile junior partner-in-crime the pound remain the only reserve currencies the world is permitted to trade with.
If that happens the boil-over will provide the first bit of genuine fun over people killing each other that normal humans have had for many a long year.
ps sharon take the zionist claptrap to someone who cares. I have met and still correspond with sufficient Libyans to know exactly what grimy scams have been pulled on that nation since UN decolonisation forced england and france out in 1956.
Posted by: Debs is as dead as the two dollar lunch | Oct 21, 2011 7:24:47 PM | 34
One particularly sordid thing in this tragedy is that evil toad, Sarkozy, who had the benefit of Gadhafi's contribution to his party's political war chest. The French president embraced the man at diplomatic soirees, and kissed him on the cheek in the perfectly civilized style, only to move with whispers and intrigue, like Shakespeare's Iago. It's necessary to scrape the bottom of the barrel to reach down to such a scummy piece of work.
Then I guess there is Hillary Clinton, caught on camera, gushing like a Sorority girl, while she read about the Colonel's demise on her Blackberry. What a detestable bunch of thugs.
Then there is the nauseating stuff in the Western press, the overworked gloating over Gadhafi's death by the usual vultures. I've been in ill health lately; but all of this makes me feel sicker. Gadhafi's face is, in a sense, being superimposed over the face of bin Laden, as all the enemies of the West, and all impediments to the oil, are being cast in the same frame.
Posted by: Copeland | Oct 22, 2011 12:55:13 PM | 36
As an American who has had the 'opportunity' to serve my gov't, I have to agree with (Posted by: Debs is as dead as the two dollar lunch) How stupid are we as a people? I have to tell you my friends that there are alot of us here in the U.S.A that have had enough of what is going on in the middle east. I really do not care about any of you and your 'faith'. It is obvious that you have all sold out to criminals, and by that I mean your mom and dad and then you and your siblings over generations. You people do not have the brain power to run for office and then try to help your own. You would, if you are an Arab and reading this, do the same as all the leaders you helped to depose. You would screw your people and enrich yourself while paying your 'help' peanuts to keep you in that position. You would and will take any money given to you 'as a leader' and pocket it instead of helping your people. It is the same OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!!! I am at the point where I feel that the West needs to make a big decision......and we all know what that is. I have to say, as hard as it is, its time to start over in the middle east. I wish you all luck there and I hope that does not happen but....we have had enough of your nonsense. Keep fu***** each other guys...its working out real well. Time to move on and take the young that survive and teach them how to love. Ed
Posted by: Ed J WTF | Oct 22, 2011 3:32:41 PM | 37
you & i, both
take care, dear comrade
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Oct 22, 2011 4:30:49 PM | 38
You are a good friend. Thanks again.
It's been not just breaking bones, or the prospect of convalescence in bed, that's made me silent in my writing; I need time I suppose, & more for reflection. I've been writing some today and lately, as usual, still puzzling over a little poetry. History is moving so fast my head is spinning.
Take good care of yourself.
Posted by: Copeland | Oct 22, 2011 5:17:51 PM | 39
If there was any doubt, this youtube video is evidence of true evil.
What is scary is the tremendous power that our world leaders hold to destroy people and their entire nations. And then they can laugh about it. This video reminds me of Bush laughing about not finding “Weapons of Mass Destruction” in Iraq.
I was never a fan of the Libyan dictator but his crimes pale in comparison to destroying the lives of millions. It is more than heartbreaking when thinking of the children who are forced to be victims.
Posted by: Rick | Oct 22, 2011 11:47:42 PM | 40
Oh, Rick (comment 40), that video is truly evil (titled: Hillary Clinton on Gaddafi: We came, we saw, he died). Good thing I watched it midway through the day, or else I'd have serious nightmares. Not good for my health.
Posted by: philippe | Oct 23, 2011 3:52:47 AM | 41
She will come to regret this
This video should be shown again and again.
That was the intention of this stupid war: To make an example of Gadhafi. Using young kids as cannonfodder hiding the pros.
The US has found their wars are too expensive. They have decided to use intimidation and terrorism. Exclusively. Al Queida has won. It is a mafia message. To Hugo Chavez, to Iran, whoever dares to call them out.
And this is why they had to demonize him.
Posted by: somebody | Oct 23, 2011 4:50:17 AM | 42
that's it. he made it into pop culture
http://twitpic.com/74jl5l "Halloween in Tripoli"
for somebody who was politically quite dead last year that is a real achievement.
how stupid can US politicians be? seems endless.
Posted by: somebody | Oct 23, 2011 6:16:38 AM | 43
how stupid can US politicians be? seems endless.
Dumb like Foxes, stupid. I bet they have more money in the too large to fail bank than you do.....so who's the stupid one?
As for OWS, Wall Street's response is to rally....the DOW's up over a thousand points since its inception. Maybe that was the intention.
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Oct 23, 2011 9:15:20 AM | 44
Kadhafi’s Green Book can be read as self-justificatory rubbish, or packed with truisms nobody contests (women are different from men, etc.), or as irrelevant in any case as not directly related to some of his more dastardly actions on the ground.
The first part is a critique both of Parliamentary democracy and Marx, ostensibly or between the lines. Flavor:
Classes, parties, sects and tribes emerge because blood-relationship, social rank, economic interest, standard of living, belief, culture and locality create a common outlook to achieve a common end. Thus, social structures, in the form of classes, parties, tribes or sects, emerge. These eventually develop into political entities directed toward the realization of the goals of that group.
..... However, the economic problem still persists unsolved in the world. Attempts aimed at ownership have failed to solve the problems of producers. They are still wage-earners, despite the state ownership which may vary from the extreme right to the extreme left to the centre of the political spectrum.
... Attempts to improve wages were equally significant to those that were aimed at the transferral of ownership.
... As time passed, workers, technicians, and administrators have acquired certain rights which were previously unattainable. However, in reality, the economic problem still exists.
... All previous historical theories tackled the economic problem either from the angle of ownership of any of the components of production, or from that of wages for production. They failed to solve the real problem; the problem of production itself. Thus, the most important characteristic of economic order prevailing in the world today is a wage system that deprives the workers of any right to the products being produced, be it for the society or for a private establishment.
Housing is an essential need for both the individual and the family and should not be owned by others. Living in another's house, whether paying rent or not, compromises freedom.
And so on. “Socialist” becomes a much used word subsequently. Only 33 pages.
If one reads one of the latest OWS proposals, the 99 percent declaration,
the echoes between these texts are uncanny (kinda taking other 99 % beefs into account.)
While K and the OWS disagree about the role and implementation of democracy > the OWS proposes a copy paste of the present US Democratic structure, a kind of shadow Gvmt, yet note that K writes Direct democracy, if put into practice, is indisputably the ideal method of government ...
for the rest, the differences are easily washed away.
Posted by: Noirette | Oct 23, 2011 12:28:13 PM | 46
Gaddafi was very much a 1960`s person, Noirette, most of the stuff, people wrote then sounds strange now. It is amazing he survived as long as he did.
He did not have much chance to run Libya other than a dictatorship as he had to unite a country with artificial colonial borders and an uneducated population believing all kind of different myths. Plus his country was always too small for him.
They tried this direct democracy stuff in the 1960's, it means people discussing endlessly and nothing getting done, all the "alternative" businesses I know of reverted to hiring traditional management and restricting discussion to twice a year. I encountered the same in team trainings in international firms where you go through hell in new teams when roles are not clearly defined.
So yes, basically his model means that after everybody exhausted themselves fighting, everybody would be glad that he took the decision.
So yes b. the next phase in Libya will be that everybody exhausts themselves fighting, and everybody will be glad in the end when the dictator takes over (the joy of being a dictator by the way is overrated, either you get paranoid, or you need permanent war.
Morocco Bama, it is news to me that money and intelligence are related, can you clarify? :-)) As it is, I am able to get the money for the kind of life I prefer, don't you think it would be stupid of me to waste time on getting more?
I know this is a strange idea for a Christian fundamentalist, the majority of religions however do not connect success with god, nor does the Bible.
Posted by: somebody | Oct 23, 2011 5:02:38 PM | 48
@48, you are correct, money does not equal intelligence, but it does give one power and status if they so desire it, and many do. In our present system, that power and status enables those with the money, if they so desire, to determine the fate of millions, if not billions. Intelligence hasn't figured a way out of that juggernaut...not yet, at least. I suppose my point is that it's rather meaningless and ineffective to call sociopaths stupid, when in fact, they're savvy enough to hold your intelligent fate in the palm of their hands. Such arrogance serves no purpose. Know their strengths and weaknesses, and use it to your advantage in opposing them and denying them, but don't pretend they are just a bunch of incompetent boobs because it makes you feel superior. That's counterproductive, and only plays right into their hands.
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Oct 23, 2011 6:07:35 PM | 49
Somehow Morocco Bama, I do not share your worldview. Hillary Clinton does not decide the fate of millions or billions. She just does not. Nor does Obama. The world is much to complex for that. When I say stupid, I mean stupid. As in acting stupid. Hillary Clinton's IQ is probably higher than mine. If IQ means anything at all, last time I checked there was no definition. It just is not important for a US politician to know the world to be successful. Their foreign policy used to be knowledgable by immigration. Not any more.
Posted by: somebody | Oct 23, 2011 8:47:38 PM | 50
@50, I was watching the Pianist last night, and one of the Middle-Aged Jewish fellas waiting all day to cross back into the Warsaw Jewish Ghetto scoffed that the Germans were stupid. Polanski put that scene in the movie for a reason....and that reason was to show the absurdity of such arrogance, and yet it was understandable under the circumstances. It was a futile gesture to hold onto any shreds of dignity the man had left, when the fact of the matter was, the stupid Germans held his fate, and the fate of millions, if not tens of millions, of Jews in their hands.
Personally, Clinton's intelligence, or lack thereof, is irrelevant. What is more relevant is what she is doing, what she represents and what she is capable of doing based off of that. Frankly, it's the System that has allowed her to come to and hold power, and thus sway over people's destinies, so in the end, it's the System that must be the focus of any positive action. She, and her ilk, are merely, in the aggregate, a face to that System.....and what a grotesquely ugly face it is.
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Oct 24, 2011 6:51:42 AM | 53
@51, if that's so, one can expect an invasion of Venezuela in short order.
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Oct 24, 2011 6:55:46 AM | 54
Morocco Bama, I am sure Polanski meant much more than that, an artist creates space for thought, does not think for you.
Yes, the Nazis were stupid, just as a crazy person is crazy, and still just crazy when they hold a gun and shoot you, and maybe even innocent because they were born that way.
Why do you feel offended when I call the US foreign policy stupid? Because you think it is a clever way to atomize Africa into fighting tribes and exploit it? Without having to spend much?
Let me tell you that people do not forget bombs for three to four generations. It is that traumatic. That attempt to "celebrate" liberation in Libya was pathetic. You dream of good business relations with Libya? Dream on.
Posted by: somebody | Oct 24, 2011 9:27:15 AM | 56
yes Marocco Bama
hmmmm...where have I seen that error before?
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Oct 24, 2011 1:17:31 PM | 58
You know, I was actually seriously asking at #51 above.
Posted by: Monolycus | Oct 24, 2011 7:42:34 PM | 60
@Monolycus - yes that Golden Dinar was a plan by the Gaddahfi government, along with lending money to African countries, bypassing the usual channels of the international banking system. Check previous Libia threads on this site, there are some links.
Like this one: Libya all about oil, or central banking? (atol).
Posted by: Philippe | Oct 24, 2011 10:19:29 PM | 61
Thanks, Philippe. I haven't been keeping up with Libya very closely. My coworker is a cheerleader for American led leveraged regime changes, so I have been kind of involuntarily tuning out a lot of the news and developments in order to keep my blood pressure lower and to keep the office environment running as smoothly as can be reasonably expected.
I should have realised that this would have been touched upon here already and gone through the archives, but time is something of a premium these days.
Posted by: Monolycus | Oct 24, 2011 11:35:30 PM | 62
This Is My Will
by Muammar Gaddafi
This is my will. I, Muammar bin Mohammad bin Abdussalam bi Humayd bin Abu Manyar bin Humayd bin Nayil al Fuhsi Gaddafi, do swear that there is no other God but Allah and that Mohammad is God's Prophet, peace be upon him. I pledge that I will die as Muslim.
Should I be killed, I would like to be buried, according to Muslim rituals, in the clothes I was wearing at the time of my death and my body unwashed, in the cemetery of Sirte, next to my family and relatives.
I would like that my family, especially women and children, be treated well after my death.
The Libyan people should protect its identity, achievements, history, and the honorable image of its ancestors and heroes. The Libyan people should not relinquish the sacrifices of the free and best people.
I call on my supporters to continue the resistance, and fight any foreign aggressor against Libya, today, tomorrow, and always.
Let the free people of the world know that we could have bargained over and sold out our cause in return for a personal secure and stable life. We received many offers to this effect but we chose to be at the vanguard of the confrontation as a badge of duty and honor.
Even if we do not win immediately, we will give a lesson to future generations that choosing to protect the nation is an honor and selling it out is the greatest betrayal that history will remember forever despite the attempts of the others to tell you otherwise.
He is resting in peace; but what horrific tragedies are waiting to be unleashed on his people; those who betrayed him and humanity. Man never learns, NEVER.
Posted by: hans | Oct 25, 2011 4:55:06 AM | 63
I'm not sold on the gold dinar angle. The Mug was increasingly isolated from other leaders and Libya was losing whatever influence it once enjoyed, so he couldn't have pulled this off. Iran, with its Bourse, is a much greater threat in this regard.
However, all the major players at this point are hedging their bets against the dollar, and it appears that the destruction of the U.S. economy has been ordained to be replaced with emerging economies elsewhere, so the dollar is dying an ordained and accepted death. The Mug didn't have the clout to create something that would be the replacement. Those plans are most likely already in effect and if I had to pick a highly plausible replacement, I'd say it would be the SDR.
Posted by: Morocco Bama | Oct 25, 2011 8:45:18 AM | 64