Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 29, 2008

Israel "Absorbs" Bombs

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Israel of GBU-39 Small Diameter Bombs as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $77 million.
...
Israel will have no difficulty absorbing these additional bombs into its armed forces. The proposed sale will not affect the basic military balance in the region.
Defense Security Cooperation Agency - Israel - GBU-39 Small Diameter Bombs, Sept. 9, 2008

The bombs now get "absorbed" by people in Gaza.

The Israel Air Force used a new bunker-buster missile that it received recently from the United States in strikes against Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip on Saturday, The Jerusalem Post learned on Sunday.

The missile, called GBU-39, was developed in recent years by the US as a small-diameter bomb for low-cost, high-precision and low collateral damage strikes.

Israel received approval from Congress to purchase 1,000 units in September and defense officials said on Sunday that the first shipment had arrived earlier this month ...
IAF uses new US-supplied smart bomb, Dec. 29, 2008

Notice the fast, just in time, delivery ...

Posted by b on December 29, 2008 at 01:07 AM | Permalink

Comments
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I cannot express how I feel about these butchering bastards without foul language. The only faint, ever-so faint, hope that I can report is that Australian SBS which appears to be bought and paid for by Nazi zionists has finally relented and reported some of the violations, even if only with an Israeli slant. This is horrible beyond belief.

There has to be a boycott on Israel. It's all that we can do. Except for the Europeans who - surely - can organise to kick them out of European football organisations etc.

Posted by: Fred | Dec 29, 2008 6:09:43 AM | 1

Gee, I don't know about kicking them out of football -- that can have unforeseen consequences!

The last time they kicked somebody out of the European Championships was when they kicked Yugoslavia out for what would later be known to be war crimes in their civil war(s). Denmark then got to participate on the Yugo ticket and won the championship over Germany in the finals.

The news coverage here, although not coming with much background info, is not as out-right pro-Israel as usual and I sense the mood is changing here. They keep pointing out that they are bombing extremely densely populated areas, for example, that Gaza is about the same size and shape as Langeland with a pop. of 14,000, but Gaza has a pop. of 1,4000,000 -- that comparision hits.

Otherwise, damn good catch, b.

Posted by: Chuck Cliff | Dec 29, 2008 6:49:12 AM | 2

@fred
I am like you helpless, Except for the Europeans who - surely - can organise to kick them out of European football organisations etc. don't think so.
The remedy lies in the mobilisation of citizens of the Arab states. See this speech by
Hezbollah Secretary General Sayyed
Hasan Nasrallah is the most popular leader in any Islamic or Arab state, so maybe there is hope in this clutch of straw. Other then that I am lost
I cringe everytime I switch the TV or radio and news comes.

Posted by: H Blink | Dec 29, 2008 6:54:18 AM | 3

Please read this brilliant commentary by Nir Rosen:

The Logic of Colonial Power

Posted by: bea | Dec 29, 2008 7:49:24 AM | 4

Thanks for flagging the Nir Rosen article.

I share the sense of helplessness and rage over these crimes. I sent a letter to my Congressman asking that he work to achieve 1) an immediate cessation of Israeli air and ground attacks; 2) allowance of humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza; 3) open a normalized border crossing with Egypt. I made the points that Israels' actions are illegal, immoral, and detrimental to the security and interests of the United States, that Israel's actions are grossly disproportionate to the provocation of a few rockets, and that toothless pronouncements and condemnations are worse than inadequate.

I do not expect it to accomplish anything other than to register (hopefully with many others) that many of his constituents do not support these actions and want constructive action.

Posted by: Maxcrat | Dec 29, 2008 8:48:47 AM | 5

We sit and watch the murder of civilians by a Jewish state and complain that nothing can be done. The USA has failed and in fact is supporting the crimes
Firstly we must now boycott all Israeli goods.
Secondly everyone NOW call on Mr Putin and Russia to lead non USA forces to a "World with Peace and Justice" :-
A) occupy Israel and disarm her nuclear and conventional forces
B) Guarantee her 1967 Borders
C) Call a meeting thro the UN that the USA cannot veto to agree a long term solution to the Area
This solution will have the agreement of all decent Countries and US citizens who want to keep their taxes to pay for education and health. The USA has lost its mandate to police the world.

Posted by: john stack | Dec 29, 2008 9:03:00 AM | 6

In 2007, the U.S. imported about $21 billion worth of goods from Israel. Top categories:

1. Diamonds $9.5 billion
2. Medicine $2.7 billion
3. Civilian aircraft plus parts and engines $1.2 billion
4. Telecommunications equipment $0.7 billion
5. Scientific, medical, hospital, lab equipment $0.7 billion
6. Computers & accessories, peripherals $0.5 billion

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/product/enduse/imports/c5081.html

Posted by: Maxcrat | Dec 29, 2008 9:42:28 AM | 7

I believe that jewish state is now us. And we are powerless against it. Financial institutions get billions and normal Americans become homeless, just like in Palestine.

Posted by: alas | Dec 29, 2008 10:24:47 AM | 8

Thanks bea, that Nir Rosen piece is truly brilliant.

Posted by: b | Dec 29, 2008 10:28:08 AM | 9

the boycott idea is a good one but nearly impossible to do. you can not find anything on the shelves anymore that have the "Made in Israel" label. Even fruit producers like Jaffa have a different name for the products sold in Europe. For consumers to pull this off is daunting at best and would need to happen at the wholesale level....perhaps pressure can be exerted on them somehow.

Posted by: dan of steele | Dec 29, 2008 10:34:33 AM | 10

It doesn't look like there is much Hope or Change for the future of the Palestinians.

Axelrod: Obama Understands Israel's Urge To Respond

One of Barack Obama's chief spokesmen repeated on Sunday that it would be counterproductive for the president-elect to weigh too deeply into the crisis between Israel and Hamas while another commander-in-chief occupied the Oval Office.

But David Axelrod, appearing on CBS's Face the Nation, did reaffirm Obama's commitment to the "special relationship between the United States and Israel" in a way that suggested general sympathy for the Jewish state's actions.

Speaking a day after Israeli airstrikes, targeting and destroying Hamas facilities in Gaza, killed more than 275, Axelrod said the president-elect, from on-the-ground experience, understood the urge for retaliatory action.

Last July, Obama visited Sderot, a southern Israel town on the border of the Gaza Strip that has taken the brunt of Hamas attacks, Axelrod reminded host Chip Reid. "He said then that when bombs are raining down on your citizens, there is an urge to respond and act to try to put an end to that. That's what he said then. I think that's what he believes."

Posted by: Fran | Dec 29, 2008 10:44:02 AM | 11

It's looking increasingly clear that Obama is tightly sown into the back pockets of not only the Israel lobby, but the war profiteers as well. Otherwise, he wouldn't be so damn heartless as to look the other way as the Israelis bomb the hell out of the Gazans. And it's blindingly clear that the O-Man is blind as a bat to the fact that one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter!

Posted by: Cynthia | Dec 29, 2008 10:44:22 AM | 12

Even without the rights and wrongs of it, for a hindu born (atheist/agnostic now), Palestine for Palestinians(Arabs/jews/Xians/clowns/dwarves/Snow White) is all there to it. It seems so open and shut to me.

Technically, from the distance(India), I have nothing to do with the ME (apart from the price of oil imported from there) and yet I'm drawn to it much like viewing an accident scene.

The photos. I force myself to see them. Because I will passively watch when Israel is paid in the same cards. In spades.

I didn't raise my voice in protest now and I won't later when the winds of fortune blow in the other direction.

Pacifist Nihilist.

Posted by: shanks | Dec 29, 2008 10:55:48 AM | 13

The wringing of liberal hands is deafening. The UN's power structure is revealed again to be a sham which neuters most of the world's opinion. To think that Obama wasn't thoroughly briefed on this is naive. 'You kids better clean up this mess before dad gets home!'

It seems obvious to me that Israel, with all its weapons and intel, could have eliminated the Qassam rockets if it wanted to. Better to let them be used as a pretext.

Posted by: biklett | Dec 29, 2008 11:23:08 AM | 14

One probable intention of the IAF was to test the application of the new smart bunker-buster bombs they got recently from the US. The coming ground incursion will provide them with an on-site analysis (along with USAF experts?) of the ensuing bomb damage against tunnels etc. and help them (and the US?) with plans against Iran's nuclear facility bunkers.

Call it the Palestinian Bomb Testing Grounds.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 29, 2008 11:25:35 AM | 15

@ 12

one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter!
Indeed, the bottom line is that all the bombs are in the hands of terrorists

Other than that, this use of these new bunker bust bombs being tried out reminds me of the shit that went down in the civil war in Spain where the fascists tried out their new means of delivering bombs on a civilian population before the main acts of the second world war.


Posted by: Chuck Cliff | Dec 29, 2008 12:08:16 PM | 16

After Israel/Palestine discussions were practically banned at Daily Kos and any critic of Israel was suppressed, the last days were quite different:

Israel's ongoing war on Palestinian self-determination (EDIT: 200+ dead, Obama: no comment)
by Daisy Cutter
Sat Dec 27, 2008 at 07:20:44 AM PST

2260 comments

Rec List Place 1


Today I end my support of Israel
by Chilean Jew

Sun Dec 28, 2008

Rec List Place 1

1500 comments

Top Israeli Newspaper Raises Doubts About Gaza Attack
by GregMitch
Sun Dec 28, 2008 at 07:28:24 AM PST

626 comments

Rec List Place 2


Quite astonishing. In the comments the Zionist supporters are really taken down.

The effect of Walt/Mearsheimer?! It is finally allowed to criticize Israel and its lobby in the U.S. ...

Posted by: b | Dec 29, 2008 12:12:33 PM | 17

From Gaza:

Israeli warships rocketed the Gazas only port only moments ago, 15 missiles exploded, destroying boats and parts of the ports. These are just initial reports over the radio. We don't know what the extent of the damage is. We do know that the fishing industry that thousands of families depend on either directly or indirectly didn't pose a threat on Israeli security The radio reporter started counting the explosions, I think he lost count after 6. At his moment we heard 3 more blasts. "I'm mostly scared of the whoosh", I told my sister, referring to the sound a missile makes before it hits. Those moments of wondering where it's going to fall are agonizing. Once the whooshes and hits were over the radio reporter announced that the fish market (vacant of course) had been bombed.

We just heard that 4 sisters from the family of "Ba'lousha" have been killed in an attack that targeted the mosque by their home in the northern Gaza Strip.

You know what bothers me more than the bangs and the blasts, the smoke, the ambulance sirens and the whooshs? The constant, ominous, maddening droning sound of the Apaches overhead that's been buzzing in my head day and night. It's like I'm hearing things, which I'm not, but I am.

Posted by: b | Dec 29, 2008 12:15:49 PM | 18

US veto blocks UN anti-Israel resolution

The UN Security Council has been unable to force an end to Israeli attacks against Gaza due to the intervention of the United States. Washington once again used its veto powers on Sunday to block a resolution calling for an end to the massive ongoing Israeli attacks against the Gaza Strip

Of course..

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Dec 29, 2008 12:32:52 PM | 19

Regarding b's #17

I find it interesting that here in the end of Bush's second term, that many find themselves as if stuck in time in that the collective out rage against Israel with regards to TREATMENT OF Gaza and the Palestinian people is in the same place it was pre-SEPT 11th. As the tide of opinion was turning when along came the GWOT. We are back where we were as if stuck in amber. Hurry, false flag! They're waking up!


Obama stands by Sderot.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Dec 29, 2008 12:52:38 PM | 20

The only country that supports Israel is the US. The others who on occasion support or overtly/tacitly agree or keep quiet or vote with the US and so on do so because they are US ‘allies’, recipients of aid, simply terrified of offending, or keen to be ‘cool’ with the US. Variously, that might be India, France, Egypt, Saudi, etc.

If the US withdrew its support - and I mean financial and military support not guff about peace conferences and moaning about intractable conflicts - it would all be over instantly.

Direct action, of the peaceful pressure kind, should thus be targeted to the root.

Boycotts - be it football or academic - end up by failing because at the top levels there are always ppl who quash them because of US pressure. The pressure goes down the chain and those even with tiny power give in. Commercial boycott can’t work because Isr. is very small and produces almost nothing, and their commercial import/export circuits, ‘international’ trade deals, etc. are all regulated, if ness. by the US. The Israelis don’t grow diamonds, they are imported...and the tech start ups are funded from abroad. That is how I see it ..but it for sure is hard to get solid numbers. Israel is financially very opaque.

Posted by: Tangerine | Dec 29, 2008 1:10:47 PM | 21

it would be even harder to boycott the US Tangerine, we don't make anything anymore.

watching the German news tonight, they all seem to be in agreement that the fault is exclusively that of Hamas "terrorists"

the Palestinians are all alone again. same as it ever was.

Posted by: dan of steele | Dec 29, 2008 1:41:29 PM | 22

the terror bombing of a people has a long & inglorious history. it has always been the tool of tyrants. overwhelming force has always been the weapons of colonists, of imperialists

rosen cites darwich when he sd nothing is forgotten - what is remembered is placed in a notebook; the apathy of the world in front of these crimes is a complicity

the practical response of the united nations is a disgrace. the arab league is showered in shame at its inactivity. again it is nasrallah who speaks the truth

imperialism created out of cloth the dictatorships of the middle east that have hitherto benefited the united states & israel. it was the covert policy of the u s & israel to support the fundamentalists from occupied palestine to the phillipines - so opposed was it to a secular, nationalist - or even socialist movements. the secular movements have been liquidated at the behest on often operationally by imperialists & their puppets

imperialism is craven - they whine & whelp day & night over zimbabwe & not a word, not a whisper for the people of gaza

the only positive thing i view is that since the new depression - people all over the world are making the connections between their own parlous state & the oppressed all over the world - we are seeing in europe an immediate response on the streets against the barbarity of the state of israel. so too elsewhere. the people are making connections

the people understand as jose marti did - that the suffering that is taking place elsewhere is also happening to you, & will happen

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 29, 2008 1:49:05 PM | 23

dan of steel

in part, because the fascist ideologues of israel have been very succesful in the west & especially europe - in attacking any criticism of israel as being anti semitic

this rhetorical gambit is stained in blood & it dishonours the jewish resistance & energy that made itself a central aspect of the enlightenment. i believe a baruch spinoza would weep before the criminal, the sheer criminal acts of the state of israel

the legitimate demands not only of the palestinian but also of the entire arab peoples are denied again & again & in a moment like this where we witness the crimes before our eyes - the media says the opposite, the direct opposite of what we see

at the end of her life the great journalist oriana fallaci swallowed by cance & hate - spoke for that part of europe that dominates in screaming, soiled & sordid epithets - her hatred extended to all the 'sons of allah" - the ugliest texts written by a human being since julius streicher - yet she spoke for those journalist we read & watch here in europe

their hatred repels me & only adds to the sadness i feel dor our species who seem on the surface so easy to control

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 29, 2008 2:01:15 PM | 24

Helena Cobban:

I see that Obama adviser David Axelrod today repeated on national television the little saying Obama said when he visited the southern Israeli town of Sderot back in July:

“If somebody was sending rockets into my house, where my two daughters sleep at night, I’m going to do everything in my power to stop that... And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.”

So how about Palestinians, Barack Obama? Do you think they are equally as human as Israelis, and that they have equally strong needs for the security of their families?

If so, what kind of a "response" would it be justifiable for them to make after everything their families have gone through in the past three days and the past three years?

Just wondering....

Yup. And I would add, the past 60 years...

Posted by: bea | Dec 29, 2008 2:01:42 PM | 25

Oops -- that last line was my commentary, not HC's. Sorry.

Posted by: bea | Dec 29, 2008 2:02:27 PM | 26

jennifer looewenstein

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 29, 2008 2:09:08 PM | 27

jennifer looewenstein

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 29, 2008 2:11:03 PM | 28

Uncle $cam,

That clip of Obama in Sderot speaking about his unwavering support for Israel against a backdrop of spent rocket shells has the same look and feel of propaganda as the image of US marines helping Iraqi civilians topple a huge bronze statue of Saddam in Firdos Square does.

Posted by: Cynthia | Dec 29, 2008 2:11:46 PM | 29

& history offers us this most clearest of opportunites - to see what happens in pakistan & what happens in israel

wee what words mean - we see what act mean

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 29, 2008 2:22:54 PM | 30

Obama knows full well on which side his toast is buttered. He's being handed facts by Olmert, and he's going to eat them and like them. The zionist cancer will not go into remission on Hope's watch. That hundred million plus buck investment by Wall Street isn't to buy peanuts, after all, and the last thing he needs is to be lewinskyed right off the bat.

Posted by: Thrasyboulos | Dec 29, 2008 2:54:29 PM | 31

Criminal Israel government is doing what they know the best, war crime against defenseless civilian. They do that with full support and help from United States, US has been partner in crime with Zionists. One way to change things is change in USA. Obama is just another Puppet for Zionist. Look for what he does not what he says, look at his pick Rahm (Annihilate Palestinian) and Hilary (Annihilate Iran for Israel)…

Posted by: Loyal | Dec 29, 2008 4:05:40 PM | 32

inner city press blogging from the u.n.

UNITED NATIONS, December 28 -- Deviating from the way it reports casualties in conflicts from Darfur to the Congo, the UN on Monday announced that less than 65 women and children have been killed since Saturday in Gaza. Inner City Press asked UN Humanitarian Coordinator John Holmes who had decided to use this methodology, and how it contrasts with that used by the UN and his Office in Darfur and the Congo. It's not a methodology, Holmes answered, we were just trying to be helpful. One wag asked, helpful to whom?

Posted by: b real | Dec 29, 2008 5:07:22 PM | 33

i have a terrible flu which is why i have not been posting.

but i have certainly been following along.

god it just breaks my heart. i am so fearful what the immediate future will bring. how long will this last?

Posted by: annie | Dec 29, 2008 5:13:32 PM | 34

annie

i think we are going to see the horror intensified to such a degree that it will surpass the indecencies of sabra/chatilla & the terror bombing of lebanon in 2006

i have the eerie feeling every time i hear a spokesperson from the state of israel - that i am listening to someone from the reichsministerium od propaganda - they are - almost without exception - thugs with themes - repeated over & over again, brutally trying to hide the disproportionality of their crimes

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 29, 2008 6:04:56 PM | 35

i know r'giap

i read an editorial about the 'real goals' today at jpost. it is so gruesome i won't link to it.

Posted by: annie | Dec 29, 2008 8:27:59 PM | 36

Get well annie, we need ya..

If I was there I'd fix one of these... ;-) double the bourbon of course...lol

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Dec 29, 2008 10:08:52 PM | 37

Justin Raimondo breaks it down

As the new Sparta of the Middle East runs roughshod over the laws of morality and basic human decency, Israel's amen corner in the U.S. is going into overdrive in an effort to prettify one of the ugliest incidents in a decade of unmitigated cruelty and brutality. All the familiar "progressive" voices – with certain sterling exceptions – are suddenly stilled: we hear nothing from our Democratic politicians, those fabled agents of "change," except expressions of support for Israel's war crimes. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi declares that Israel has "the right to defend itself," without deigning to inform us as to whether the Palestinians have the same right. Given her record as AIPAC's most reliable congressional ally, who can always be counted on to echo the Israel-first party line, one assumes not. Powerful foreign affairs committee chair Howard Berman concurs, as does our about-to-be-sworn-in chief executive.

Appearing on Face the Nation, Obama's chief adviser, David Axelrod, averred that "we have only one president at a time" – a consideration that hasn't stopped the world's most famous community organizer from publicly organizing the biggest raid on the U.S. Treasury in American history. In any case, as the Huffington Post put it, Axelrod "did reaffirm Obama's commitment to the 'special relationship between the United States and Israel' in a way that suggested general sympathy for the Jewish state's actions."

Posted by: ran | Dec 29, 2008 11:14:34 PM | 38

Things will continue until the Israelis get bored, or until our new Imperial Manager (who provides the Zionists with $3B/yr. in weapons, important trade relations, and global corporate media support) decides otherwise. Since he ran on a publicly announced platform of supporting and abetting Zionist war crimes, I wouldn't be surprised if the murdering of innocents goes on for quite a while.

Of course one can never trust campaign promises, but it seems clear that our Dear Leader will prove to be a man of his word when it comes to servicing his corporate and military benefactors who put him in office, and prove to be far less reliable in keeping the promises made to ordinary people who accounted for only one third as much funding.

George Bush had his "Pet Goat" moment when he chose to have no say in world affairs. And now Obama has his "vacation in Hawaii" moment while innocents are being slaughtered. To believe that the man who is to be President in several weeks cannot be reached is absurd. If he is really that far out of the loop, then he will only act as the sales department, while his handlers make the real decisions.

Posted by: Malooga | Dec 30, 2008 2:28:25 AM | 39

One need not believe all the assertions of this poorly edited Debka bulletin to find it interesting. The "money quote" seems to be

... military sources report that Monday, Hamas had recovered sufficiently from Israel's air offensive to bring out its new Iranian Grad rockets to expand their range up to 40 km and launch them over the heads of the hundreds of Israel tanks, armored cars and artillery piled up outside the gates of Gaza and awaiting the order to move in.

Reading between the lines, one can anticipate the "discovery" of a cache these Iranian Grad rockets shortly after the "tanks, armored cars, and artillery" move in to Gaza, thus creating a dilemma for American policy mavens who will be prodded by both the Republican and Democratic branches of the Likud lobby to draw the "appropriate" conclusions and take the "necessary retaliatory" action against Iran. A suitably orchestrated media campaign in the U.S. may make the "public pressure" for such action appear well-nigh irresistible.

Of course, I may be wrong about this. Nevertheless, it's difficult to discern countervailing forces sufficiently potent to derail the onrushing train of belligerence. In the U.S. Israel's "right to self defense" will continue to trump all objections until such time as the American Jewish community breaks with Tel Aviv. There are already significant parts, perhaps even a numerical majority, of that community at odds with Israeli policy, but the capillary conditioning of mass media by its most fervent and well-positioned acolytes has, thus far, succeeded in marginalizing such "internal" opposition as well as all its allies within the broader U.S. body politic.

Posted by: Hannah K. O'Luthon | Dec 30, 2008 5:37:08 AM | 40

not that it makes any difference to anyone here, but this so called Iranian Grad is a Soviet era rocket used by more than 50 countries. Iran ALSO manufactures a version. Wiki has some info on them.

but as HKOL states above, that will not stop the noise machine.

Posted by: dan of steele | Dec 30, 2008 7:21:01 AM | 41

America is changing, the president elect is only one sign of this, although, he will not stand up for US interests against the political power of israeli influence on the US. Barak is drifing to the right just as Clinton did. Its practical politics of the moment.
The population of the US will not forever be wasp dominated, I have been called a wasp by a columbian friend, he did not understand that no irish catholic american can be a wasp.
With the demographic change, european ancestry will no longer dominate, Just as we have a significant somali population her from just a minor occupation, some day a large arab and iraqi constituency will also exist. Some will be elected to office. The old print media will shrink to insignificance, the broadcast media will fail from lack of revenue as new media replace it. The overreaching and treason from such as AIPAC and JINSA will finally produce scandals that the new media will not cover up as the failed old media do. Only this demographic change will uncouple the israeli media and policy stranglehold on the US. Its gonna take half a century to get there.
1967 israel attacks USN Liberty, politicians and media instantly cover it up
1968 abraham shapiro is allowed to get away with stealing 200 lbs of plutonium from apollo pennsylvania, the tame media bury the story.
1970s we pay israel to make peace, perfidious israel cheats as usual.
'80s, '90s, israel cements stranglehold on american propaganda media.
and is allowed to attack UN peacekeepers in Qana lebanon, site of the marrage at Cana in the new testament.
2000, Ariel Sharon and a battalion of bodyguards deliberatly ignite the second intifada as a ploy in his political ambition.
Traitors like wolfowitz and pearle, feith, etc combine with corrupt politicans cheney/rumsfeld/bush to create a war with iraq that was planned by mossad, (plan mentioned in Victor Ostrouskys book "Beyond deception")using americans as their tool. It was never about 911 or WMD, it was mossad sleepers and corrupt oil magnates.
The story of the diaspora as a mass expulsion from ancient judah, simply never rings true, the only people who left were the ruling 2 percent, the tiny literate minority, who had warning and the means,camels,ships, slaves or whatever to escape to the black sea shores,and go into slav trading with the vikings. The majority of the people, the carpenters, farmers, and fishermen mentioned in the new testament had no means of escape and the romans had no reason to kill them, as they were useful. These and the succeeding waves of invasions are the palestinian people. The money lenders in the temple are the diaspora ancestry.
The new testament cancels the old deal, true christians know that. The conmen of the televangelical scam forget that. their dangerous and naive followers are a serious threat to the Constitution of the United States.
Israel has a peace faction that is large, no such views are allowed in american life. The pollards of the government and media lie and try to keep the people stupid, its working, but the demographic change will disrupt that.

Posted by: patriot in a time of official treason | Dec 30, 2008 12:01:01 PM | 42

yes Dan @ 22, I was just expressing my pessimism.

As for re-labelling: the two main supermarkets in CH, who share 90% (or even more) of the custom, sell very little, almost no, produce from Israel, sometimes avocadoes, and that is about it. Neither sell any Kosher products (with the exception of a very few of the ‘high up versions’ which have added shelves with ‘speciality items’ which they import outside their usual). Now I don’t know about the market for Kosher, that is a different question, but they don’t sell the Israeli produce because they can’t, it doesn’t move. So we have seen a flush of strange brands - Sunflight oranges and the like - ...but as the law says that the provenance must be given, this probably works for a week or two not more. The Coop at one point took to tagging from Palestine, which guarantees an immediate sell-out, but that is illegal, as Palestine is not a country. So they had to desist. Upshot, boycotting Israeli goods harms Palestinians as well and nobody knows what to buy or not.

Note: the Coop shops let in activists (this is 2 years ago) to walk around the stores and politely ask ppl, did they know where they were buying from, etc.

Posted by: Tangerine | Dec 30, 2008 12:36:39 PM | 43

Tangerine,
since Israel = USA a boycott of USA goods, wines, white goods etc would be effective if it could be started. Why does the USA put itself up for hatred and disgust from the world to please Israel ?. Are the people really that stupid ?. Disarm Israel and guarantee her 67 borders. Most of your problems disappear. Time to look after USA intrests. Everyone knows but appear bovine. Why not occupy Government buildings which is non violent but easily done?. The people of the US must stop all that happens in their name.

Posted by: john stack | Dec 30, 2008 1:03:53 PM | 44

john@44Are the people really that stupid ? yes and no

i don't think us 'mericans are capable of grasping, collectively, how much Israel depends on 'merican cash and hardware to murder palestinians, and we certainly aren't seeing the degree of world protest against Israel and us, its enabler.

it might also be the case that many of the brainwashed citizens here don't care because all the mainstream info we get is so sanitized and skewed, only those of us who actively seek out alternative news sources are horrified and disgusted by what is happening.

the left-leaning local progressive bloggers i antagonize sure don't like it when i point out Obama, surrounded by zionist hawks, is either unable, unwilling, or both when it comes to trying to curtail these zionist fuckers from starving and blowing up the native inhabitants of the occupied territories.

people here are scared, angry, and confused; our capacity to care is limited selfishly to only ourselves because that is how we've been conditioned to think. and we are loathe to acknowledge the reality that we are a broke, dangerous, despicable nation of obscene consumers slowly waking up from the binge of boom decades with one hell of a hangover.

Posted by: Lizard | Dec 30, 2008 2:29:08 PM | 45

sara roy gaza

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 30, 2008 3:30:17 PM | 46

Gaza relief boat carrying Cynthia McKinney rammed by Israelis

An Israeli patrol boat intercepted a yacht carrying three tons of medical supplies to Gaza in international waters early on Tuesday as it attempted to run an Israeli blockade. According to those on board, the patrol boat accused the relief vessel of being involved in terrorist activity and then deliberately rammed it, forcing it to return to port in Lebanon.

Among the yacht's 16 passengers were doctors, journalists, and human rights activists, including former Rep. Cynthia McKinney (D-GA). McKinney spoke to CNN from Lebanon, telling John Roberts, "Our boat was rammed three times, twice in the front and once on the side."

McKinney described as "outright disinformation" a statement by the Israeli Foreign Ministry which called the charge that the ramming was deliberate "absurd." According to the Israeli spokesman, the boat was struck as it attempted to outmaneuver the Israeli vessel.

Also see this one..


Drama on High Seas: Navy Stops Pro-Arab Boat

Drama on High Seas: Navy Stops Pro-Arab Boat

by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu

(IsraelNN.com) The Navy stopped pro-Arab activists around midnight Monday from reaching Gaza by stopping their "Free Gaza" vessel for the first time after several previous landings in Gaza. Activists claim the Navy rammed their boat, and they charged Israel with "piracy on the high seas."

The movement's spokeswoman Greta Berlin told Israel National News that the incident occurred approximately 50-60 miles off the Gaza coast, in international waters. Any vessel can be legally required to identify itself in order to prevent it from entering prohibited territory although its passengers cannot be arrested in international waters, explained Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor.


The Free Gaza boat, dubbed the Dignity, collided with a Navy boat, but Berlin said the activists on board have pictures to prove it was rammed, an allegation that Palmor said is ridiculous. "If we wanted to hit it intentionally, everyone would have drowned," he told Israel National News.

Ministry spokesman Yossi Levy was quoted by a CNN correspondent on board the 60-foot vessel as saying that the collision occurred when a Navy boat tried to turn around. Free Gaza claimed that at least half a dozen Navy boats surrounded the Dignity.
Defense Ministry spokesman Shlomo Dror said 'the time has come to put a stop to these anarchists.'


The activists reported they did not have enough fuel to return to Cyprus and that the Navy did not allow the boat to proceed to Egypt but is allowing the vessel to sail to Lebanon after originally ordering it to turn back to Cyprus.

..more..

From the above:

"The Free Gaza boat, dubbed the Dignity, collided with a Navy boat, but Berlin said the activists on board have pictures to prove it was rammed, an allegation that Palmor said is ridiculous. "If we wanted to hit it intentionally, everyone would have drowned," he told Israel National News."

WTF? If they wanted to, they would have let the Dignity's crew and passengers just drown? As someone from another board asks, " so now humanitarian relief is anarchy, [terrorism]?

Anyone else remember how the Israeli lobby threw boatloads (pun intended) of cash to McKinney's opponent? Which in turn made her lose her seat in congress? by the nation’s most powerful lobby and attack dog republican group, for her failure to tow the Israeli line, mostly because she confronts corporate media malice in court, defense contractors and jackals during hearings?

Yeah, that Cynthia McKinney.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Dec 30, 2008 4:42:52 PM | 47

one big thing you really have to think about with regard to the seeming lack of interest toward the Palestinians from Europe and especially from the US is that most people really don't care. We don't care about the massacres in Rwanda, we don't care about the famines in Ethiopia or Bangladesh. those are places far far away inhabited by people who can't even speak English. Besides, what can we do? throw a few coins in a bucket around Christmas time...that sure enough makes you feel good about yourself.

what the hell, we got problems of our own. it seems "those people" are always having stupid wars, have too many children for the available food, and often have flies crawling around their eyes and mouths *shudder*. they just need to learn how to knuckle down and do some good honest work.

So john stack, go out and ask 100 random people what they think should be done in Palestine. Ask them to explain UN Resolution 242 to you. I wager you will get blank stares wrt the last question and something along the line that they have been going at it for thousands of years and there is no stopping them now for the first. it is not a question of the US being stupid, not at all. the narrative is there and deeply embedded from years of talk radio, serious editorials in all the major newspapers, and countless films depicting the horrors of the holocaust and reminding us to feel so very guilty about what happened to the 6 million souls in Germany. throw in for good measure that the US has about the same percentage of religious people as Saudi Arabia and that religion is all about the very place this crap is going down and you get some pretty crazy results. sure there are the crazies who are breathlessly awaiting the rapture but many more slightly more sane ones simply feel that the "Holy Land" is better off in hands of the Israelis than with those smarmy Ay-rabs.

four years ago a quarter million people died in a huge tsunami in the Indian Ocean. who remembers that? four years from now who will remember that 300 people were killed in Gaza?

all you can do john is to gently try to tell your friends what is really happening, to encourage them to look elsewhere for information and not rely on NBCCBSABCFoxCNN for the real deal.

good luck

Posted by: dan of steele | Dec 30, 2008 5:00:17 PM | 48

b, (17)

I too have been surprised, and in a good way by DKos. I'd really written it off for anything I/P related.

And Mondo Weiss is excellent.

Posted by: Diane Mason | Dec 30, 2008 5:32:18 PM | 49

grrr.. b why do you split up posts on the same or similar topics?

Anyway, with regards to my #47, for those who watched Cynthia McKinney grill rummy, on trafficking in women and children, here's a 'for instance'...

Child Maid Trafficking Spreads to US

IRVINE, Calif. (Dec. 29) -- Late at night, the neighbors saw a little girl at the kitchen sink of the house next door. They watched through their window as the child rinsed plates under the open faucet. She wasn't much taller than the counter and the soapy water swallowed her slender arms.

To put the dishes away, she climbed on a chair.

Shyima Hall, 19, was just 9 when she began working as a servant for a wealthy couple in Alexandria, Egypt. A year later, the couple moved to California with their five children and took Shyima with them. She worked up to 20 hours a day with no days off. Her pay: $45 a week. She is part of a surge of child trafficking for domestic labor in the United States.

But she was not the daughter of the couple next door doing chores. She was their maid.

In America? Really? so these kinds of things are now blatant and out in the open? And not one goddamn law maker, leader, public servant says and goddamn thing about it, and those whom do get shit canned? This is not goddamn acceptable! Either covertly or openly! But as my friend Lizard says above, the American people have become numb and the "leaders" are fucking career treasonous criminals of the highest order. This burns my ass!

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Dec 30, 2008 5:42:54 PM | 50

Glad to see so many voices of outrage regarding the slaughter in Gaza. It appears that Obama has chosen to side with the Lobby and turn a blind eye to Palestinian suffering. We in the US are prisoners as well, it seems.

"MURDER as COVER for THEFT is NOT *self-defense*!" ~ LT

Posted by: LanceThruster | Dec 30, 2008 10:23:26 PM | 51

The label of "terrorist" is the new means of justifying genocide. In the past, those being killed off to make way for the "right" people were called barbarians or savages. American Indians were "savages" who had no rights to be called fully human and thus could be mercilessly hunted down.

Now, it's "terrists," in BushBoy's pronounciation, who can be hunted down and killed off. Or, as is being done in Gaza, placed under seige inside ghettos and hunted down, bombed, starved.

There seems to presently be no other way to justify genocide except by labeling persons and groups as terrorists.

Israel's actions toward Gazans have been sickening for many months--this is just more obvious killing. Ugly, obvious--yet our MCM has bought the Israeli government's justifications hook, line, and sinker. A few reports come out that civilians are being killed, but Americans are used to that: It's the price of hunting down "terrists." The BBC, however, has made some comments which show a realization that the bombing of Gaza is a war crime. Not said outright, but right up to the line.

And I watch helplessly....

Posted by: jawbone | Dec 31, 2008 12:52:18 AM | 52

inner city press, blogging from the u.n., follows up on a post i linked to yesterday

UNITED NATIONS, December 30 -- A number of civilians killed in Gaza, 62, that the UN put out on Monday and then later qualified has nevertheless gone all over the world without the qualification attached, thus understating the deaths of non-combatants. UN Humanitarian Coorindator John Holmes on Monday told the Press that "on the Palestinian side, there's something like 320 dead... sixty two of those killed we believe are civilian casualties." Video here, from Minute 7:50. Holmes went on, "that simply encompasses those who are women and children."

Inner City Press asked Holmes, who made the decision to use a methodology which excluded all men? Holmes replied that it is not a methodology, and emphasized that the number is only for women and children. Video here, from Minute 48:34.

But the phrase "62 of those killed we believe are civilian casualties," which Holmes himself read out from a prepared statement, went out on wire services, leavened by what credibility the UN has.

Associated Press reported that "the UN said at least 62 of the dead were civilians." The same phrase then showed up in an article in the Washington Times bylined by Richard Gross, "At least 62 of the dead were civilians, the U.N. said."

Reuters followed in what they called a "Fact Box" that "the Israeli strikes have killed at least 335 Palestinians, including at least 62 civilians."

The Wall Street Journal dropped the phrase "at least" and reported on "casualties, which United Nations estimated Monday at 320 dead, including 62 civilians." From there it continued, from Sky News to Radio Netherlands, from India to Turkey and beyond.

So who is responsible? And what will be done to correct this?

Posted by: b real | Dec 31, 2008 1:06:35 AM | 53

..with regard to the seeming lack of interest toward the Palestinians from Europe and especially from the US is that most people really don't care. (..)

(dan @ 48)

Ppl care, but the caring is distant, leads to shifting op-eds and ‘liberal’ hand wringing. Ppl follow the MSM lead. Their pols, bosses.

Typically: “So sad. Such stupid ethnic hate”, etc. All the excuses are legion.

Never again is a hollow empty slogan, a ludicrous farce, vicious in its double speak.

Better, more honest, to admit to powerlessness, to fear of facing up to Gvmts, the PTB, etc.

That is the first step to getting some initiative back.

Posted by: Tangerine | Dec 31, 2008 2:10:20 PM | 54

Re: the UN using "civilian" to mean only women and children--doesn't that echo what the US has done in Iraq? Afghanistan? Where all men are suspect of being possible insurgents, terrorists,fighters of some ilk, thus only women and children may be labeled "civilian"? Of course, with the women acting as suicide bombers, soon even women may not be labelled "civilian"....

Same reasoning?

Posted by: jawbone | Jan 1, 2009 2:15:43 PM | 55

What sort of sick redneck antisemitic site have I accidentally stumbled across? I am stunned by such idiotic bile.
Are any of you aware that Judaism is about 6,000 years old, Christianity 2,000 & the Muslim faith 1,600.
The Jews lived in the area around Jerusalem from year one. They were enslaved & taken to Egypt for many years, conquered by the Romans, fought the Assyrians,etc.etc. But Jerusalem was the center of Judaism. In fact, Jerusalem is mentioned in the Old Testament more than 600 times. In the Koran, Jerusalem is not mentioned once but Medina & Mecca each rank about 600 mentions.
As well, there is no such place as "Palestine".

After the Balfour Declaration of 1917 & further promises from the Brits. in 1947, the State of Israel was born in 1948. Now in 2009, Israel which probably occupies less than 1%(perhaps 1/2%)of the entire Middle East, having won such wars as the "6 day war" against overwhelming odds, have returned much of the "spoils of war" (Britain, Spain, Portugal, Belgium etc took centuries to return anything).

What do these mongrels Hamas do, after a "democratic election" against Fatah, but thoroughly subdue Fatah and rain about 8,000 rockets on towns in Southern Israel over a period of 2 years. And let's not forget that Jesus...a Jew...was born in Bethlehem, a stone's throw from Jerusalem.
Israel could take no more, warned Hamas, then took the necessary action to force peace. Certainly innocent lives were lost but the way Hamas fought...in civilian clothing, arms hidden in mosques, schools, UN buildings, mortars near schools, housing etc...this was inevitable.
Then Israel is declared by the world as being barbaric, over-reacting, evil...you name it.

May I now mention WW2 when the USA finally but rightfully and thankfully declared war on Japan on December 7 1941. Australia and Britain had all but been wiped out trying to defend S.E.Asia & perhaps bombing Pearl Harbor was the greatest mistake the Japanese ever made.
America won this War as well as the European War with the aid of its allies.

I however I make this point. Although they warned Japan (as Israel did Hamas), in both cases the enemy took no notice of these warnings. Consequently, USA dropped two atom bombs on Japan killing and maiming tens of thousands innocents. Did Turkey (as it did to Israel), throw up its hand in horror and revile America for overreacting. Did anyone? I was a babe so am unaware.

For what it's worth, my grandfather who was a Russian and two of his brothers joined the British Army for WW1 and were killed at Flanders Field. My father and his one brother joined the Australian Army and were killed in New Guinea.

Posted by: Harry Gunzburg | Feb 1, 2009 1:43:09 AM | 56

Harry,
Sorry you didn't get the memo, but my people decided to move into your house. Please send us your address. I'm sure you'll understand. If you don't, just read our book. It's all in there.
Ta ta for now.

Posted by: biklett | Feb 1, 2009 2:14:51 AM | 57

Harry, with all due respect, but my guess is that your ancestors who fell in battle fighting Nazis and brutal oppression, would be turning in their graves if they could read your justification for the inhumane horrors dished out by the IDF and Israel's despicable treatment of the Palestinian people.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Feb 1, 2009 2:28:25 AM | 58

"biklett"...sorry, but I do not understand a word you say or imply. Let's face it, I am a simple Aussie whose country supported USA in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.
"Juan Moment"...the five members of my family who died, did so in WW1 because they were then British citizens (migrated from Russia at a time when there were no nazis), and in WW2 simply because they were Australian citizens. If I was only older, I would have fought in Korea.

Yes, I am a Jew. I love Jews, Christians, Muslims, Bhuddists, Asians...you name it. I detest Hamas because of their principles & the way they engage in war.

But refer to my first letter. I simply say " If Israel was accused of overacting after giving Hamas countless warnings, does not the same apply to the way USA warned, then finally bombed Japan. Could that not also be called an overreaction?

Posted by: Harry Gunzburg | Feb 1, 2009 3:39:27 AM | 59

Of course (it was an overreaction).

Harry, you're not making any sense. Is Israel suppose to be the "good" example of how to make war? Killing civilians with illegal weapons in collective punishment? Using one horrific blot to justify another only leads to worse. Read the Likude Charter on the other thread:

The Likud charter from 1999 as available on www.knesset.gov.il says:

The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.
...
The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

Or in simple English, the government of Israel does not accept the right of a Palestinian state to exist - and is literally trying to push it into the sea.

Posted by: anna missed | Feb 1, 2009 4:28:10 AM | 60

anna missed
Having been directed to your site, I realise that I am corresponding with a bunch of fruitcakes.

All Israel wants is its own promised and rightful homeland. They want to live in harmony with Palestinians as they currently do with the Egyptians who are basically Muslims but not Arabs.

It is you who is not making sense! Hamas is an evil foe intent on the total destruction of Israel. What would America do if (hypothetically) Toronto started lobbing missiles on Buffalo, Albany and other New York State small cities? They would not put up with it for 2 years pleading & threatening Toronto to desist.They would simply wipe Toronto off the map.
The "run of the mill" Palestinian was not responsible for 9/11 although to their shame, some living in USA openly applauded the incident. You refuse to recognise that Israel had the Gaza war forced upon them and until you do, you will always condemn them.

And a pox on your Likud Charter of 1999. Gaza belongs to the Palestinians thus your "so called charter" is dead.

G-d, I'd heard that sick, unreasoning, unthinking people like you existed but thought it was a myth. I am so glad I stumbled upon your web site.

You madam are brainwashed and will only realise when a few more 9/11s happen.

Posted by: Harry Gunzburg | Feb 1, 2009 7:57:56 AM | 61

jesus, who let the dog in.

Posted by: annie | Feb 1, 2009 9:24:25 AM | 62

Having been directed to your site

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 1, 2009 9:42:41 AM | 63

Unfair to dogs!

;)

Posted by: beq | Feb 1, 2009 9:46:48 AM | 64

megaphone keeps directing bloggers to our loverly site.

you're right beq, i shouldn't have insulted dogs comparing them to the stinky smell of these genocide supporters.

Posted by: annie | Feb 1, 2009 11:31:33 AM | 65

b,

can you tell if Harry came from Australia or was he using a proxy? seems they do not refresh their talking points ever. these are the same exact ones they use everywhere and have been for the last 3 weeks.

maybe their disinformation campaign is not as effective as they think it is, then again....it doesn't take much.

Posted by: dan of steele | Feb 1, 2009 1:22:43 PM | 66

dos

no, their talking point are as blunt as a piece of 2 by 4 - you always catch a glimpse of regev's foaming mouth

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 1, 2009 1:35:37 PM | 67

Seeing as Harry Gunzburg brought up his ancestors who died in Flanders, it might be worth pointing out that a significant reason why British men joined up in 1914 and afterwards, and continued to believe they were fighting a 'just war,' was the Rape of Belgium - atrocities committed by a huge modern army against the women and children of a small and effectively defenseless country.

Posted by: Tantalus | Feb 1, 2009 2:29:21 PM | 68

Having been directed to your site

If that were so, I'm a little embarrassed that they sent such a (rhetorical) third stringer over here. But then again they're probably really really busy these days.

Posted by: anna missed | Feb 1, 2009 2:48:48 PM | 69

annie...I might be a dog but you are a goat.
beq...Wrong. Unfair to goats.
dan of steele...I am Australian, NOT a proxy and am not afraid to use my full true name.
rememberinggiap...Regev does not and never has foamed from the mouth. I feel that you are a mouthfoaming retard.
Tatalus...The "Rape of Belgium" was the violation of a Pact, something symptomatic of Germans and Arab militants.Innocent civilians were targeted and murdered. This can in no way compare with how Hamas acted in Gaza. England joined France to fight the Germans because of this violation and my Grandfather & his two brothers were "first in the line" to join the army. Actually, the sinking of a British passenger ship (the Lusitania)in 1915 was one of the events which finally brought America into WW2,
anna missed...I accidentally came across this rotten site. The site I was directed to was your highlighted pseudonym which revealed further antisemitism.

My wife and I have been to USA 31 times...mainly for skiing in Aspen & Vale. We have visited 38 of your 50 States,& were never scared to hide the fact that we were Jews. I also included business in these trips and one of my best friends was the late Sam Walton. He was my mentor and was always prepared to give me advice.
One thing he never told me was that people like you existed.

Posted by: Harry Gunzburg | Feb 1, 2009 11:09:41 PM | 70

@Harry Gunzburg

What gives you the right to barge into this community and spew your invective, bullshit and bile ... given your fatuous 'introductory' family history snaphsot, meant to signify what, exactly ? Credibility ? BARF !

You have the manners and courtesy of a drunk baboon and clearly have nothing to contribute of any substance.

One of the most base and rude trolls to puke on the carpet in a damn long time ... 1300 to 13 ... a kill ratio of a hundred to one against the virtually defenceless ... the wounded ratio is even more obscene ... disproportionate ?

Ironically, only something that Zionists and Einsatzgruppen would probably be proud of ... the 'armed to the teeth' IDF military machine stomping the Palestinian Untermensch beneath the military boot ... Gilat is held hostage, so 1.5 Million Gazans must CONTINUE to be imprisoned and forced to subsist on barely starvation rations ... collective punishment on such a scale is unequivacably a WAR CRIME ... the equivalent of Lodz, Warsaw, Krakow only now the Zionists fulfill the role of Nazi's ?!

Israel was established and led by acknowledged terrorists ... the Irgun, Haganah, etc ... but this is all forgotten ... "... We don't deal with terrorists" (unless they're jewish ?) ... your memory and acknowledgedment of history in your 'intro' appears irrevocably schizophrenically selective and skewed ....

Kindly, FUCK-OFF !!!

Posted by: Outraged | Feb 1, 2009 11:44:52 PM | 71

Quick! Order that man a whiskey on me! Good to see you Outraged! Refreshing and electric catharsis. Thank-you.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 2, 2009 12:14:16 AM | 72

Harry's impolite tactics only exposes the weakness of his "argument." A friend of Sam Walton? Traveling to Aspen and Vale? That's rich, Harry. Cheers.

Posted by: Lizard | Feb 2, 2009 12:53:58 AM | 73

Skiing in aspen and vail, oh my dear me, we didn't realize we were talking to mr gunzburg, the famous aspen tourist. I think I remember you... yeah, you're the knucklehead staying in a condo at the Snowmass Club that gave me a two percent tip with a big hoary smile like you were doing a fella a big favor. I remember handing it back to you and telling you that you probably needed it more than I did... Yeah I remember you alright.

Posted by: David | Feb 2, 2009 12:55:14 AM | 74

Due to a huge time difference between ALL parts of Australia and all parts of USA, and because I can not afford to spend 24/7 conversing with Nazis, I will get back to you tomorrow.
But I ask you...is it a sin to ski in Colorado, have been a friend of the late Sam Walton, see more of USA than all of you combined and have a bit of money?
And to you Outraged,shove your head up what must be the biggest arsehole in the world. You forgot the Stern Gang and make sure you are not late for tonight's KKK meeting. I recommend a movie called "Mississippi Burning"...you might learn a little...but only a little.

Posted by: Harry Gunzburg | Feb 2, 2009 8:13:14 AM | 75

Harry Balls, with all due respect bugger off. You are a confused zionist who is obviously in need of some sleep.

Did you see america with the rest of your Mossad buddies? When? I'd guess sometime near 9/11, you were one of those flecks of feces managing a cart at a mall weren't ya'? Mossad?

I doubt Outraged will gain much from either of your suggestions. Both of your comments show you know feces about what all this is about-we weren't discussing race relations, but how to deal with a bunch of criminal fuck heads better know as zionist. This has nothing to do with race, culture or religion but everything to do with stopping a country of criminals, baby murderers and general whinny assholes who deserve to wander the desert for another forty years for all the crap they've put the rest of us through.

So Harry Balls, take your racist hate mongering and your hollow excuses for supporting murder and go have a pleasant night dreaming of your heros in the white robes...

Posted by: David | Feb 2, 2009 8:43:52 AM | 76

So is this bloke a Nazi, then, Harry? My Military's Moral Low.

What about Yuri Avnery?

What about all the Jewish and Israeli voices raised against the atrocities of Gaza?

Posted by: Tantalus | Feb 2, 2009 12:32:43 PM | 77

David...a very Jewish name! Do you know what a Zionist is? Simply, a Zionist is a Jew who believes in a homeland for the Jews. Having been kicked out of England and Spain and not wanted anywhere else, naturally they wanted their old homeland back.
There are Palestinians but no such place as "Palestine".
I've been in about 85 countries but unlike my wife & sons, never in Israel. Thus I have no Mossad buddies.
Tantalus...of course their are Jews who are against what is happening in Gaza. You obviously have not read a word I have written before justifying Israels offensive.
If you were my neighbor & I kept throwing bricks over the fence into your yard,occasionally killing one of your kids and causing a lot of damage, and you begged and threatened me over 2 years to desist or pay the consequences. Then out of frustration you gathered all your mates and bashed the living shit out of me despite the fact that I hid behind my wife, mother, children and as many innocents as I could find, wouldn't you feel justified?

And what's this crap about having a few bucks, skiing at Vale & Aspen and having Sam Walton as a friend. How many of you have been out of your own State let alone out of USA.
I worked like the proverbial dog to get where I am and deserve the rewards.

A pox on all you anti-semits.

Posted by: Harry Gunzburg | Feb 2, 2009 10:21:33 PM | 78

no such place as "Palestine".

yawn

Posted by: annie | Feb 2, 2009 11:05:19 PM | 79

Harry Gunzburg:

If you were my neighbor & I kept throwing bricks over the fence into your yard,occasionally killing one of your kids and causing a lot of damage, and you begged and threatened me over 2 years to desist or pay the consequences.

That's the right description but you got it framed from the wrong side. It is Israel that is killing the "kids" not Palestinians. Zero Israeli kids have died in the past couple of years by Palestinian attacks. Hundreds of Palestinian kids have been killed by Israeli attacks. So even by your own words:

wouldn't you feel justified?

Oh by the way, this isn't a neighborly affair like you describe it, it's an occupation. It is legal under international law to resist occupation. End the occupation then talk to us about justification.

And not one person on this site or any Arab government on the planet is denying Israel a state. The killing is over the size of the state.

Posted by: Sam | Feb 2, 2009 11:57:01 PM | 80

Nice diversion from the routine of intelligent informative discourse harry. It kind of brings the high beings trying to communicate for the good of our whole species, and planet, back into focus for me so maybe we can all eventually transcend the pernicious ethos you seem to support (in your uniformed, culturally conditioned way with a great deal of denial to boot).

Hey all. I suggest we just let harry post all he wants and totally shun him in the form of zero response and maybe he’ll glean a morsel or two before he bugs off.

Caveat:

I wrote the above before I read your #78 Harry. Your 78 sounds like you are not just a psychopath or blind true believer but do have a shred of self inquiry and seeking for a better truth than you presently believe.

If I judge your sincerity correctly then I suggest you just stick around and read the conversation here for a month or so, without comment, (I never learned anything by talking but a great deal from listening) and then again enter the conversation.

Posted by: Juannie | Feb 3, 2009 12:52:45 AM | 81

"How many of you have been out of your own State let alone out of USA.

That's rich. Yes. Stick around Harry.

Posted by: beq | Feb 3, 2009 6:55:35 AM | 82

...shouldn't judge a book by the cover, Harry.

-just sayin'

Posted by: beq | Feb 3, 2009 7:20:38 AM | 83

The Process: Understanding Human Cruelty

Ow, my head:

Israeli soccer matches were suspended during the assault on Gaza. When the games resumed last week, the fans had come up with a new chant: "Why have the schools in Gaza been shut down?" sang the crowd. "Because all the children were gunned down!" came the answer.

It's hard to belong to a species that often acts with such berserk cruelty. We don't just cause each other horrible pain; we do it gratuitously, far beyond what's necessary to reach any of our conscious goals, and in fact to the point it's completely counterproductive for anything we believe we're trying to do.

Why?

more at the link.

We are negotiating with insanity...

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 3, 2009 7:41:29 AM | 84

It is 4.03AM as I start this note.
Do you boneheads really believe I enjoy the terror that Israel has inflicted on the innocents of Gaza? I am not such a barbarian that my heart does not bleed for the civilian population of Gaza. Having lost probably 5 of the most important people in my life in WW1 & WW2, I have a permanent lump in my throat for the innocents of Gaza.
My hatred is only for the militants of Hamas, Iran and the offshoots.
I have just read on Australian Google News (half an hour ago) under the headlines "U.S.-allied Arab states back Abbas in Hamas row"
Obviously I cannot type the whole article, but the crux of it is "Our aim is to boost Arab solidarity, to mobalise our backing for the Arab peace initiative& bolster support for the Palestinian Authority under the leadership of President Mahmoud Abbas Arab Emirates Foreign Minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayad al- Nahayayn told Reuters.
The meeting comes on a day when a rocket fired from the Hamas-ruled Gaza-Strip struck yhe Israeli port city of Ashkelon & Israeli aircraft bombed smuggling tunnels connecting Gaza with Egypt.

The co-sponsors of this arrangement were Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Bahrain, Jordan, Morocco, Tunisia, Yemen and the Palestinian Authority.

Posted by: Harry Gunzburg | Feb 3, 2009 3:10:44 PM | 85

harry, Rolf Verleger, a German psychology professor and Jewish activist wrote about Gaza: The Bad, Bad Neighbor . check it out.

you also may appreciate From Policy Intention To Legal Justification, or Everything you wanted to know about how Zionists control US policy.

these and other enlightening posts can all be found by following the jan 09 link on the homepage under the Monthly Archives, including this graphic. if you plan on sticking around, rather than making assumptions about who we are and where we live, read thru some of the comment sections.

Posted by: annie | Feb 3, 2009 3:23:46 PM | 86

@Mr. Gunzburg

Just to notice - Hamas won the election for the Palestinian Authority. Since January 9(?), Abbas is no longer President of Palestine as his mandate ended then.

Why your list of U.S.-allied(!) Arab countries? What do they have to do with Palestinians? Did they ever help them?

Why do you mention Iran? Did it ever help Palestinians but through rhetoric?

Facts:
- The Palestinians are occupied by Israel.

- The have the human right to fight the occupation.

- They do so by the means available.


What is your problem with that?

Posted by: b | Feb 3, 2009 3:25:44 PM | 87

Harry, check out this article and dialogue. I'll admit that a lot of it is over my head, not being Jewish, let alone Orthodox, but it strikes me as a very human approach to the problem - sort of what one might wish religion should be for. Judah Leon Magnes sounds like an extremely interesting person - I'm going to investigate further. More proof, as well, that being opposed to Israel's policies does not make one an anti-semite.

If one takes the trouble to look, these sentiments exist on both sides of the religious divide. Not being religious myself, my revulsion is for the bald fact of murdered children, be they in Gaza, Israel, Congo, Afghanistan, Lebanon or Sudan. The longer we can look at these facts and use them as nothing more than reasons to spew invective, propogate misinformation and ignorance and engender hatred, the more thoroughly we undermine basic human dignity.

Posted by: Tantalus | Feb 3, 2009 3:38:34 PM | 88

H. Gunzburg in a recent Jerusalem Post comment:

21. Of course the Palestinian Authority was correct.
Why on earth did Olmert pull back without completing the job? Hamas is the most evil of all of Israel's enemies. They should have been totally wiped out. Was he worried about world opinion or perhaps Obama's inauguration. I am an Australian and totally dumbfounded by his weak and totally incorrect decision.
Harry Gunzburg - Western Australia (01/23/2009 09:59)

The plurality (44%) of Palestinians voted for Hamas. More than voted for any other Palestinian party.

Ahhh - wipe them off the map - and blame Iranian president who never said such ....

Der Stürmer would have been proud to print such a comment.

Posted by: b | Feb 3, 2009 3:41:50 PM | 89

I'd like to remind everyone that there was a time in my life when my views were not that different from Harry's.

Those views never would have changed if people insulted me for my beliefs right off the bat.

For those beliefs to change, a whole paradigm shift must occur; very often that means coming to see that everyone you have ever trusted has, perhaps unquestioningly, mislead you. Psychologically, it often means holding even tighter to your views as you feel more and more threatened by the increasing cognitive dissonance you are perceiving. It usually takes many people's efforts to help someone across this rift. One can never tell when the dam will break.

It seems to me that if you come to this bar to inform yourselves in the hope of making this world a little less bad, that it is a great opportunity to engage with someone who doesn't share your views but has questions. Otherwise we can all sit around and agree with each other that the rest of the world is stupid. I guess if I had that amount of free time I'd choose physical masturbation over mental. Cause if you don't use your knowledge that is all this is in the end.

This is the second person this week sent packing with accusations of "troll" before the person is heard and engaged once or twice, before they are given a chance. Unfortunately, I don't have the time or opportunity these days to do this.

But the glee with which others have been attacked here is, to my sensibilities, really quite shameful. It bespeaks more of a canine pack mentality, than informed wisdom.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 3, 2009 11:05:22 PM | 90

I'd like to remind everyone that there was a time in my life when my views were not that different from Harry's.

Those views never would have changed if people insulted me for my beliefs right off the bat.

For those beliefs to change, a whole paradigm shift must occur; very often that means coming to see that everyone you have ever trusted has, perhaps unquestioningly, mislead you. Psychologically, it often means holding even tighter to your views as you feel more and more threatened by the increasing cognitive dissonance you are perceiving. It usually takes many people's efforts to help someone across this rift. One can never tell when the dam will break.

It seems to me that if you come to this bar to inform yourselves in the hope of making this world a little less bad, that it is a great opportunity to engage with someone who doesn't share your views but has questions. Otherwise we can all sit around and agree with each other that the rest of the world is stupid. I guess if I had that amount of free time I'd choose physical masturbation over mental. Cause if you don't use your knowledge that is all this is in the end.

This is the second person this week sent packing with accusations of "troll" before the person is heard and engaged once or twice, before they are given a chance. Unfortunately, I don't have the time or opportunity these days to do this.

But the glee with which others have been attacked here is, to my sensibilities, really quite shameful. It bespeaks more of a canine pack mentality, than informed wisdom.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 3, 2009 11:06:07 PM | 91

Sam...all I can say is please go back to my postings 56 (particularly the early part) and 59 (particularly the end)and read my comments

Juanne & Uncle $cam...what short or selective memories all of us have. Does anyone remember what the Jordanians, then the Lebanese did when the Palestinians tried settling there?
Has everyone forgotten about the "homicide" bombers who used to walk into cafes and kill up to 30 kids ad nauseam. And the same bombers walking into crowded open markets in Jerusalem slaughtering and wounding hundreds of civilians.

Thankfully for you, I'll just leave it at that.

Posted by: Harry Gunzburg | Feb 3, 2009 11:41:18 PM | 92

Malooga, we haven't evolved too far beyond our basest mammalian instincts, which is indeed unfortunate. if this were a real bar, and Mr. Gunzburg walked through the door, shouting What sort of sick redneck antisemitic site have I accidentally stumbled across? I am stunned by such idiotic bile. he would have probably received a traditional ass-kicking. Since that delightful initial comment, Harry has shown a slight variance in the predictable rhetoric to indicate there might be hope of "the dam breaking," but frankly many of us don't have the patience to try and persuade Harry why Israel, like America, is only making its citizens less safe by slaughtering a MAJORITY of innocent people.

everyone has their examples to bolster their chosen point of view. I think most folks have been less vitriolic to Harry than his rude behavior deserves. maybe Harry G. will actually listen to the valid criticism offered here and think twice about the dying paradigm that is zionism. and it's not just zionism getting exposed by it's own psychotic and ultimately self-defeating policies. lot's of -ism's will hopefully follow the same path into the dustbin of history.

Posted by: Lizard | Feb 4, 2009 12:27:08 AM | 93

Thanks for your comments Lizard. I came across the site by accident and was stunned by what I read. I'm not used to sites like this in Australia and I must admit that I WAS EXTREMELY RUDE. For this I sincerely apologise to all I offended.

To b, regarding Iran. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, in virtually every speech he has made has said (freely translated) "Israel must be wiped off the map". Iran is known to buying some pretty classy rockets from Russia as well as other smart arms. These are being passed on to Hamas.
For this reason only, Israel wants the Egypt/Gaza tunnels destroyed or thoroughly policed.

My apology at the start of this note is totally sincere but I must admit that Aussies are very different.

Posted by: Harry Gunzburg | Feb 4, 2009 1:07:30 AM | 94

To b, regarding Iran. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, in virtually every speech he has made has said (freely translated) "Israel must be wiped off the map". Iran is known to buying some pretty classy rockets from Russia as well as other smart arms. These are being passed on to Hamas.
For this reason only, Israel wants the Egypt/Gaza tunnels destroyed or thoroughly policed.

Ahmedinajad did not say that. He quoted Khomeni who once said Israel will "vanish from the pages of history." Just like what happened to the Soviet Union and the South African apartheid regime.

There is none, zero, null evidence that Iran is providing weapons to Hamas. Show proof if you have.

The tunnels to Gaza are delivering food and medicine to the people there. As Israel blockades all other routes into Gaza (against international law) that is their only means of survival.

Posted by: b | Feb 4, 2009 1:47:30 AM | 95

there are many insightful contributors here, Harry, who have taught me a great deal, but one of the reasons i benefit from different perspectives is because I'm willing to consider that i might be wrong. ultimately we all have opinions based on very limited experiences, which makes us not all that much different from each other.

Posted by: Lizard | Feb 4, 2009 1:56:59 AM | 96

Harry:

Actually, it is Israel's prefered interlocutor, Mahmoud Abbas who has been a "Holocaust Denier."

Following Tantalus's link, I find an interesting moral discussion here. Not to much Halakha, more reason and analogy.

Simply put, I was never taught the Palestinian narrative in Hebrew school. When I heard their story, and researched about the Nakba, I was astounded by the inhumanity the Israeli Jews showed to the people living in Palestine. This was not the religion I had been brought up to believe in, the actions were not in accord with my personal moral code. All people are equal, in my book. (I make this sound quick and easy. Actually the research and gradual realization took almost twenty years.)

Israel has occupied Palestine for 42 years. The "Peace Process" has resulted in the settling of almost a half million Jews on Palestinian land, the theft of their water, agricultural destruction, displacement, blockading, checkpoints, a state of siege, etc.

There will never be a "war to end all wars." Killing a billion people who hate you is not only physically impossible and criminally insane, it is morally juvenile. (It took the American settlers 350 years - but this was against 10M unarmed Natives, not 1B.) The only intelligent adult approach is to make peace.

Give the Palestinians back their land, and give them the full rights of any nation. Make restitutions for those forcibly expelled in 1948 just as the Germans paid reparations for the Holocaust. Or, create a single state with equal rights for all.

After all, what are the options:

1) Continue to fight until one side vanquishes the other.
2) Continue to fight until the world is destroyed by man.
3) Make peace through dialogue and compromise.

The third option is the only one which makes sense to me, and, I believe, others on this blog.

So, no matter what you say about how threatening and inhuman the Palestinians are, the only option in the long run is peace through dialogue and compromise. Dehumanizing one group of people as "animals" always creates another non-human group: "monsters" who are free to treat others in ways that they would never consent to be treated. Rabbi Hillel knew what he was talking about.

Harry, we are both old enough to realize how quickly life passes. If the conditions are not there for peace now, we must work to create those conditions for the next generation. If peace is broken, we must restore it, not avenge it, mip'nei tikkun ha-olam.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 4, 2009 7:57:47 AM | 97

To.b It is 2.15am in Western Australia, I cannot sleep because I am due to be in hospital in 8 hours for a one day (in/out) operation for a rather horrific piece of surgery. Believe it or not, I was once a 6 foot, 13 stone footballer who represented my State and a gym junkie who pushed the envelope just a little too far. But too many of us do this!

I felt obliged to answer your response to some of my comments.
Firstly, when I said that Ahmedinajad rarely made a speech without saying "Israel must be wiped off the map", I did say (FREELY TRANSLATED) meaning that his rantings were not word perfect.In many I have read he refers to the "Iman" (obviously the vile Khomeni) and his words were not always couched in the same way.
I wont go into this as I have just taken sleeping tablets & am sipping JW Black.
Incidentally, how did you feel when the USA
troops were held hostage for 400+ days in the infamous raid which Israel offered to come in and "release" them pronto with the offer being rejected by USA.
Secondly, regarding Iran supplying arms to Hamas. Please type into Google the words"WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE RUSSIAN ROCKET BEING SUPPLIED TO IRAN WHO IN TURN SUPPLIES HAMAS?"
There are a number of replies (some differing) but please at least read the 4th posting down first, then the others. You should also find one FEARFUL posting headed.."IRAN HAPPY ABOUT A BOMBS-UNHAPPY WITH HAMAS".
And on tonight's news came the news that Iran is ecstatic about launching its first nuclear device.
Finally, the tunnels from Egypt to Gaza. Were so many of these tunnels needed...in the many hundreds...most privately owned with the owners charging "fees"? Israel only closed the border routes into Gaza because they were fearful that not only food & medical supplies were getting into Gaza. The same applies in spades to the hundreds of Egypt/Gaza tunnels.
b. I do not mean to offend you in any way. I am simply putting forward the facts as I see them.
My Great Grandfather on my Grandmothers's side was in partnership with Edmond de Rothschild and they created the towns (then villages) of Rishon le Zion and Peta Tichva...now both thriving small cities. Perhaps you cannot forgive me for what I have said before but perhaps understand me.

Posted by: Harry Gunzburg | Feb 4, 2009 2:02:35 PM | 98

Thanks for your apology Harry. And I offer my apology for any canine pack mentality that influenced the way I phrased my first post to you.

The patrons to this bar are the furthest thing from sick redneck anti-Semites and it sounds like you may even be suspecting this yourself by now. I hope you’ll stick around long enough to get to know us a little better. When you present your point of view with respect here in this bar you will get a spirited conversation but usually not ad hominem abuse. That is often the first thing that triggers our pack response as we sense a provocateurs.

BTW, Sam Walton, or more correctly Walmart is, in my mind, one of the major icons of what is so dreadfully wrong and degenerate about American/Western culture. But that’s an issue for the Open Thread if you want to stop by over there and pursue it but it seems like you probably have all the disputation you need for now right here. In the meantime I wish you well during and after your horrific piece of surgery.

Posted by: Juannie | Feb 4, 2009 2:41:29 PM | 99

@HG - don't know if this is worth the effort, but I'll give it a try:

Firstly, when I said that Ahmedinajad rarely made a speech without saying "Israel must be wiped off the map", I did say (FREELY TRANSLATED) meaning that his rantings were not word perfect.In many I have read he refers to the "Iman" (obviously the vile Khomeni) and his words were not always couched in the same way.

Ahmedinejad used that line only once. And why did you not use the correct translation?

Incidentally, how did you feel when the USA troops were held hostage for 400+ days in the infamous raid which Israel offered to come in and "release" them pronto with the offer being rejected by USA.

First: Not troops were held, but U.S. diplomats and a lot of CIA folks who had an active part in the horrible deeds of the Savak, the Iranian secret service under the Shah, against the people of Iran.

I did not care about those at all. Israel's "offer" to free them was a joke.

Secondly, regarding Iran supplying arms to Hamas. Please type into Google the words"WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE RUSSIAN ROCKET BEING SUPPLIED TO IRAN WHO IN TURN SUPPLIES HAMAS?"

Just did that. The first link coming up is JINSA Blames Iran for Hamas’ Glorified Bottle Rockets a interesting read, indeed.

There are a number of replies (some differing) but please at least read the 4th posting down first, then the others. You should also find one FEARFUL posting headed.."IRAN HAPPY ABOUT A BOMBS-UNHAPPY WITH HAMAS".

Googling that brings be to some totally uninformed rant by a metallurgist at Hypocrisy.com - the name is the program ....


And on tonight's news came the news that Iran is ecstatic about launching its first nuclear device.

Iran launched a 25kg telecommunication satellite that has not anything nuclear with it (unlike U.S. and Russian satellites that carry nuclear batteries).

Finally, the tunnels from Egypt to Gaza. Were so many of these tunnels needed...in the many hundreds...most privately owned with the owners charging "fees"? Israel only closed the border routes into Gaza because they were fearful that not only food & medical supplies were getting into Gaza.

Israel is in FULL control of what goes through the borders. It searches every load and every bit that goes through those borders. Today it denied the UN to import paper for UN schools in Gaza.

How can writing paper be used to make rockets? Is Israel just in fearing that school writing paper could be used to make rockets?


The same applies in spades to the hundreds of Egypt/Gaza tunnels.

The tunnels are deliver the most basic stuff the people in Gaza need.

b. I do not mean to offend you in any way. I am simply putting forward the facts as I see them.

May I suggest better glasses?

My Great Grandfather on my Grandmothers's side was in partnership with Edmond de Rothschild and they created the towns (then villages) of Rishon le Zion and Peta Tichva...now both thriving small cities.

The same Rothschild who denied war credits to the UK in its WWI fight with Germany until he got the Balfour declaration that later was used to press for a Zionist state when the UN was founded?

Oh yeah, that Rothschild financed lots of killing.

Perhaps you cannot forgive me for what I have said before but perhaps understand me.

I do not have anything to forgive. I understand that you do not understand.

Posted by: b | Feb 4, 2009 2:51:41 PM | 100

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