Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 27, 2008

The Attack in Mumbai II

The cleanup operation in Mumbai are still ongoing as the police and army search and fight through two big hotels that were attacked. The latest casualties numbers are 125 dead, 327 injured.

As said before, there is something weird about these attacks.

There was no clear target.

The major attacks were on a railway station, two big hotels, a multiplex movie theater and a bar. Two taxis were blown up. Two terrorists allegedly were at a hospital.

Of the dead only 6 were foreigners, of the wounded 7. While those hotels and the bar frequently have foreigners those numbers and the attack on the railway station and the cinema do not fit to an "attack on foreigners" scheme.

There also seams to be no special religious anti-Muslim or anti-Hindi scheme in this as no place of worship was attacked.

The attacks, even while there were a lot of casualties, seem not designed to cause the maximum number of dead. One would do that with explosives within the crowded railway station. Not by  shooting into the masses or by blowing up a random taxi.

There were no suicide bombings. Apparently there was no hostage taking either. But the attackers did not care or prepare to get away either. Instead they waited for the police and then had a shootout at each place.

The group that allegedly claimed the attack has never been heard of. For maximum international media attention thanksgiving is not a good day.

This coordinated attack brought out all anti-terror units in Mumbai. That, I think, might have well been the intended aim. The attacks seem to have been designed to do and to create direct battle situations with the anti-terror forces.

Here is my conspiracy theory:

The right-wing, Hindu-nationalist  BJP party is competing with the ruling Congress party for upcoming elections. A big election theme is Islamic terrorism.

On September 28 a bomb blast in Malegaon, some 150 miles north of Mumbai, killed four and injured 80.

Two years before in a series of bombings at a Muslim cemetery in Malegaon 31 were killed and over 100 wounded. Most were Muslim, but the local police then pointed to some people from the Student Islamic Movement of India as the culprits.

The investigation of this years blast in Malegaon was carried out by the Anti Terrorism Squad from the state capitol Mumbai under its chief Hemant Karkare. It figured that a right-wing nationalist Hindu groups, which included some former higher ranking military and had some ties to the BJP, was the culprit.

It is an ongoing huge investigation which has had loud echoes in the parliament and the election campaigns.

A week ago Hemant Karkare was in a tussle with the nationalist BJP:

The Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS) on Thursday invoked the stringent Maharashtra Control of Organised Crime Act (MCOCA) against the ten accused arrested so far in the September 29 Malegaon blast case.

One more suspect would be arrested soon, ATS chief Hemant Karkare said at a press conference.
...
Rebutting senior BJP leader L K Advani's charge, Maharashtra Anti-Terrorism Squad said there was no political pressure on it in handling the Malegaon blast probe nor was there any substance in the charge that accused Lt Col P S Purohit was tortured in custody.

"There is zero political pressure and we are working professionally. Purohit has said in open court that ATS has not ill treated him," ATS head Hemant Karkare said.

Two days ago Karkare received death threats:

The Pune cyber cell officer on Tuesday received a call from an unknown caller who issued death threat to Mumbai's Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS) chief Hemant Karkare, TV channels reported.

Yesterday Hemant Karkare was killed when he responded to the attack on the Taj hotel (video showing him preparing to go in).

All together four top anti-terror policemen were killed.

Mumbai Police Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS) chief Hemant Karkare was among the dead. Two Indian Police Service (IPS) officers, additional police commissioners Ashok Kamte and Sadanand Date, were killed in separate gun battles with terrorists, the authorities said.

Mumbai Police "encounter specialist" Vijay Salaskar were also shot dead in another gun battle. Karkare was heading investigations into several recent cases of terrorist attacks here.

All four were in the first response wave against the attacks. Salaskar was a Mumbai top response officer with 75 criminals killed on his list. Kamte was the key officer in the state police and known to be 'in the thick of it'.

Karkare died when he tried to enter the Taj hotel. Kamte and Salaskar died at the multiplex.(I could find out about Date.)

In total 14 police were killed and 26 wounded.

These are high numbers. How many of them were ambushed?

With Karkare dead, the investigation into the Malegaon explosions and their backers will likely be postponed until after the election.

Meanwhile BJP leader Advani is milking the attacks as good as he can:

The BJP's prime minister-in-waiting's remarks makes it clear that the party is going to ratchet up its "soft-on-terror'' campaign against the Manmohan Singh government in the coming days. While the latest serial attacks are likely to boost its prospects in the ongoing assembly polls, it is expected to add more strength to its anti-terror tirade. The party is certain to spare no effort to bring the issue towards the centre of the country's political discourse in the run-up to the general election.
...
While the party stated that the priority was "to bring the seize to a close with the least amount of casualty", the larger questions were not far behind. "Such a well-orchestrated attack could not have taken place without a long and large scale conspiracy, we hope that the political establishment, security agencies, and the country as a whole would draw the right lessons from the incident. We need to strengthen our intelligence network and have a strong legal and security mechanism to fight terror," BJP general secretary Arun Jaitley stated.

From asking "Qui bono?" I arrive at the BJP's door.

The attack, designed to created fight-outs with police, killed the man who was the biggest danger for the BJP as he was revealing Hindu terrorism and made the BJP campaign against Muslim terrorism seem bigot. The current attack, which will reliably be charged on some Muslim entity, will help the BJP win against the Congress party.

But me arriving at that door does not mean that the BJP really is responsible here, I only find it possible to likely.

Posted by b on November 27, 2008 at 01:04 PM | Permalink

Comments

Official says siege ends at Mumbai's Taj hotel

MUMBAI, India – A state official says the siege has ended Mumbai's Taj Mahal hotel and the last three gunmen there have been killed.
...
A state official also said eight hostages have been freed from the Mumbai headquarters of Jewish outreach group.
...
About 10 to 12 gunmen remained holed up inside the hotels and a Jewish center, a top Indian general said. The remaining gunmen appeared to have been killed or captured, Maj. Gen. R.K. Hooda told New Delhi Television.
...
Officials said eight militants were also killed.
Hmm - so how big was the group? 20-25?

Seems small for the carnage ...

Posted by: b | Nov 27, 2008 1:55:49 PM | 1

On the other hand Tariq Ali argues that the most likely culprits are disaffected Indian Muslims. There are 140 million Muslims born in and living in India. A sizeable minority who suffer economically and socially. Tariq Ali maintains that the Indian government is desperate to prove that foreigners (ie Pakistan, even Somalia) are responsible because if it transpires that this is the result of internal sectarian division it demonstrates that everything is not well in the 'new India'. eg:

Why should it be such a surprise if the perpetrators are themselves Indian Muslims? Its hardly a secret that there has been much anger within the poorest sections of the Muslim community against the systematic discrimination and acts of violence carried out against them of which the 2002 anti-Muslim pogrom in shining Gujarat was only the most blatant and the most investigated episode, supported by the Chief Minister of the State and the local state apparatuses.

Add to this the continuing sore of Kashmir which has for decades been treated as a colony by Indian troops with random arrests, torture and rape of Kashmiris an everyday occurrence. Conditions have been much worse than in Tibet, but have aroused little sympathy in the West where the defense of human rights is heavily instrumentalised.

Indian intelligence outfits are well aware of all this and they should not encourage the fantasies of their political leaders. Its best to come out and accept that there are severe problems inside the country. A billion Indians: 80 percent Hindus and 14 percent Muslims. A very large minority that cannot be ethnically cleansed without provoking a wider conflict.

On the other hand b's analysis also appears to have substance to it, but since (to quote our new PM) "perception is reality" none of this matters as most of the world is going to be made to believe that these attacks were the result of 'rogue elements' within Pakistan's ISI working alongside Pakistani 'muslim fundamentalists' and their comrades in the Taliban.

Incidentally I don't think Obama needs convincing, it is becoming woefully apparent that Obama is reagan the second, that is his art lies in convincing the voters, the actual policy decisions are made by his shadowy backers. Obviously in order to do this, particularly when ramping up war will strike many Obama voters as a volte-face, certain stage props such as terror attacks are required.

And that doesn't mean that this particular action was planned outta Washington either, it just means that those who did plan it know their business and know amerika won't look a gift horse in the mouth.
Not when it seems to so clearly meet their needs.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 27, 2008 1:58:03 PM | 2

Hmm - so how big was the group? 20-25?

Seems small for the carnage ...

Exactly. This stinks to high heaven of intelligence backing of some sort. Let's see, how many perps in the JFK assassination.....just one, but such success? Hardly. It was many perps and much planning but the real perps fade into the background as though they never existed and the dopes buy the cover presented by a neutered and compromised press.

Sorry of that sounds racist.

Posted by: | Nov 27, 2008 2:33:42 PM | 3

Interesting theory, b, but they'd have to lure in bona fide Muslims on false premises to serve as the suicide commandos, because I doubt even the most fanatical BJP militants would agree to circumcision just before they gave themselves up to martyrdom; and the dead bodies would be a giveaway.

Check this for a new batch of telling details:

Terrorists did recee, set up control rooms in luxury hotels

Terrorists who struck Mumbai had set up advance "Control Rooms" in the luxury Taj and Trident Oberoi hotels which was also targeted and did prior reconnaisance executing plans worked "over months", Union Cabinet minister Kapil Sibal said on Thursday night.

Sibal said the unprecedented terror attack in the country's financial capital was planned "over months" and the terrorists were not carrying AK-47 rifles but sophisticated weapons like MP-6.

"The terrorists have identified the targets earlier. Somebody had told them earlier. Enormous planning went into the incident. The terrorists were dropped by a mother ship and travelled in rubber boats which they docked (at Mumbai)," Sibal said.

Terrorists were not attacking people at random. It was a well though out plan, Sibal said.

They had targeted certain key police officers even when they were wearing vests and protective head gears, he said, adding the terrorists shot them dead within minutes of their arrival.
(snip)

Posted by: Alamet | Nov 27, 2008 2:39:28 PM | 4

B

2007, Musharraf's last year in power - there were 2 terrorist spectaculars in India.

2008, Zardari takes charge, year to date, 11 terrorist spectaculars in India, apparently.

Last week, Zardari disbands the ISI political wing. Wonder if there's a connection there?

Zardari wants to deploy Pakistani military forces in ever greater numbers to fight in the tribal regions. This strikes me as an effort to force India's hand and get it to deploy it's military to the border, which will thereby force Pakistan to counter, which, in so doing, will involve a reduction of forces allocated to the tribal regions and the conflict against the Pakistani Taliban factions.
I think, that as conspiracy theories go, this one makes a lot more sense than a false flag that is beyond the known competency of any Hindu terrorist group ( the Malegaon bombings are VERY different in scope, scale and MO ).

Apart from the deaths of the police officials, who would have a wide and deep pool of enemies ( including the Pak. ISI ) - the attacks strikes me as a hit on the "psychogeographical fabric of elite Bombay" - the sites hit have "iconic" status in the city.

There's also a lot of reporting that some of the attackers came in by sea - I'm a tad skeptical of this at present, in spite of the piccies of the fast boats that are being shown liberally on UK news channels ( this has been the major story of the past 24 hours and little else is being reported - Thanksgiving is only a slow news day in the US ).

Posted by: dan | Nov 27, 2008 2:46:25 PM | 5

Islamic Terrorists.............. blah ........................blah Islamic Terrorists.............. blah ........................blah Islamic Terrorists.............. blah ........................blah Islamic Terrorists.............. blah ........................blah Islamic Terrorists.............. blah ........................blah

Posted by: Sky News | Nov 27, 2008 3:03:02 PM | 6

Well, with the nasty hit Indian counter-terrorism troops took, I expect them to be pissed off and try to nail who attacked them. In which case, it would be quite foolish from the BJP to be behind this, because if they are guilty, they'll be found out - after the election probably, but they'll be uncovered and there'll be some payback. Merely blowing up a bunch of civilians would have been far less risky than targetting directly special forces (unless it was the target, but that means hell to pay later).

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Nov 27, 2008 3:05:21 PM | 7

As usual b, your analysis is persuasive and compelling. If your past record of prognostication is indicative I’d even give odds you’re pretty close to right on. Have you ever been far off since the Moon’s inception?

This episode brings up for me the risk associated with trying to expose and correct corruption, especially in high places. I’ve thought a lot about this and fear that anyone who gets too close to the truth is in extreme jeopardy. I guess this has always been true but in today’s technologically advanced world is seems even more true.

Posted by: Juannie | Nov 27, 2008 3:47:10 PM | 8

Telling details or disinformation?

That's making it look not like a terrorist operation but as a raid by heavily trained commandos. Next step is to say that they were from the pakistani army.

I don't think that in a city the size of Bombai a few dozen 'terrorists' need 'motherships' and 'rubber boats' to infiltrate. And passing a few weapons wouldn't be a problem either. Someone here has been reading too many Tom Clancy novels.

There is something very weird at so many deads and no clear details about is happening. But that could be explained if part of the security operative was actually working to increase the confusion.

What is obvious is that the high police officers were directly targeted. But why in hell would a muslim terrorist bother with a simple anti terrorist police officer? Terrorism is about terrorizing, not making targeted tactic killings. So either bomb out hundreds of people or target politicians or a random police station. The objective is carnage, not as much who you kill unless it's a very simbolic target and those police officers don't make the cut.

Posted by: ThePaper | Nov 27, 2008 3:47:11 PM | 9

Literally millions of ppl are dying because of war; Aids and other diseases; hunger; pollution, global warming, agri. mismanagement, filthy water or lack of any; invisible in jails; or of despair, tears of blood, screams of agony, suicide; or in camps, insanitary tents, with blue helmets either cynical and bored, or exploiting sexually; and so on and on.

Terrorism is supposed to make all us Westerners outraged, afraid, questioning, apprehensive, and ready to be suspicious of our neighbors, trusting in Strong Authority, happy to kill without question.

Posted by: Tangerine | Nov 27, 2008 3:47:37 PM | 10

Sorry, that was me at #3. I keep forgetting.

Posted by: Obamageddon | Nov 27, 2008 3:50:59 PM | 11

Before anyone else says it, yeah what I'm gonna say sounds sick in light of the 125 deaths reported so far.
But look out Bollywood this is gonna make a great movie - set the explosions in counterpoint to 'sitar pop' rhythms giving the tabla a whole new sound. The thing that inspired me to come out with that piece of bad taste was the last par in the piece Alamet linked to:
The assessment by the Centre as Mumbai continued to be under siege for the second day came amid reports that the leader of the armed terrorists involved in the attack was killed by his own men.

Forget whether that is accurate, the seed has been sown, that factoid will become a central part of the Siege of Mumbai myth. The drama encapsulated in "the leader of the armed terrorists involved in the attack was killed by his own men" is enough for 3 expose paperbacks, one hardbound academic work that claims to identify the the'truth' behind the activists motives and the 'real plot' - all of which can be turned into straight to dvd 'entertainments'.

It is in these ways that we become inured to others' pain and suffering.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 27, 2008 3:52:51 PM | 12

What of the reports that tey were "targeting people with US and UK passports"?

Posted by: ralphieboy | Nov 27, 2008 4:39:54 PM | 13

MSNBC http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27858161#27858161>link

after publicity for credit cards, a Santa Clown, whatnot, shows:

1) unseen video of Ziad Jarrah...and it is really new, and really, truly Jarrah. (9/11, flight 93.)

Believe me. I know these ‘terrorists’ as well as any one can, and all the docs. This vid. was made public in the trial of KSM at Gitmo, where or how it came from and why kept back is one of those unknown unknowns.

Then, 2) quote .. Worry about Your own Safety and Security! unquote.

Follows, a switch over to “Bill” who is calling from the Taj Hotel, Mumbai ..and the rest is confused phone call about that.

Posted by: Tangerine | Nov 27, 2008 5:00:07 PM | 14

"As usual b, your analysis is persuasive and compelling."

Can't really agree. It appears to come down to "the BJP benefits from any Islamic terrorism, hence any "Islamic terrorism" must actually be committed by the BJP."

Sorry if I'm not impressed.

As for the attacks, they seem to have been a success from the dramaturgical perspective. They were an excellent mix of random killing aimed at creating chaos, and creating a prolonged battle in Mumbai. From a European media perspective it's been a smash hit - it's been dominating news completely for over 24 hours here. It's something new and fresh - people are used to bombs going off, but this is more spectacular.

As for creating false flag terror attacks, bombing is usually best. Few traces, and finger pointing is easy. Using 20-25 suicidal commandoes? Some of which will inevitably be captured and interrogated? That's just plain insane from both a recruitment and operational security perspective.

Posted by: hupplon | Nov 27, 2008 5:02:09 PM | 15

"As for creating false flag terror attacks, bombing is usually best. Few traces, and finger pointing is easy. Using 20-25 suicidal commandoes? Some of which will inevitably be captured and interrogated? That's just plain insane from both a recruitment and operational security perspective."

they seem to be well organized and efficient, so they probably are meant to be known, they create maximum media attention and maximum embarassment for the state, police and army, they have a new group name nobody knows about, like Fatah al Islam in Lebanon ....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5241036.ece

Posted by: outsider | Nov 27, 2008 5:36:04 PM | 16

ThePaper @ 9, yes, it is possible that the report is disinformation or at least back covering by the authorities, as in, "Oh, no, there is much more to this attack than the small handful of half-sized teenagers you've been seeing on your TVs!" (So far, every eyewitness account I've come across emphasizes how young the attackers are.)

*****

Separately, I see another of the killed police officers, encounter specialist Vijay Salaskar was also a very big name in his field, which was organised crime. That adds another element to the picture.

Posted by: Alamet | Nov 27, 2008 5:42:00 PM | 17

It looks like there is more to Hindu terrorism than the Malegaon bombing:

Dead man’s tale holds key to Hindutva terror secrets

(snip)
Forensic evidence and leads from informants, investigators say, suggest that the Hindutva terrorist group Abhinav Bharat was responsible for a series of unsolved bombings so far blamed on Islamists: the February 2007, firebombing of the Samjhauta Express; the attack on the Mecca Masjid in Hyderabad that May; and the October 2007, attack on the shrine of Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti in Ajmer.
(snip)

(Debs, another story with the "leader killed by his own men" plot line for you!)

Posted by: Alamet | Nov 27, 2008 5:51:55 PM | 18

Pictures showing attacker wearing "red thread" on wrist. Significant?

Posted by: jeff65 | Nov 27, 2008 6:43:20 PM | 19

jeff65, that is interesting. I checked news sources to see if the pictures at your link might be photoshopped, but they appear legit. The pics at the IBNLive gallery also show that reddish wristband. But wouldn't such a symbol be instantly recognizable in India? I think there'd have been an outcry long before now if there was such direct linkage to a certain identity...

Posted by: Alamet | Nov 27, 2008 7:18:56 PM | 20

Forgive my naivete, but could this just be "stirring up the hornets' nest" - either to see if the 'spooks' can get any group to start attacking any other group (war for war's sake), or for pure distraction? What else is going on that needs to be distracted from? The fishing boat incident, perhaps?

Posted by: Dr. Wellington Yueh | Nov 27, 2008 8:00:05 PM | 21

From another board..


Who could be behind the Mumbai attacks?

Witnesses say the attackers were young South Asian men speaking Hindi or Urdu, suggesting they are probably members of an Indian militant group rather than foreigners.

this much seems clear, they are far more likely to be indian nationalist extremists than outsiders or muslim extremists,

here is a little snippet of hate from hindutva.org, a site that seeks to bring you analysis of Current Global Politics and History from a Hindutva viewpoint

Coming back to India, we can note that only after mass-actions like the anti-Muslim riots of 2002, did Gujarat have a relative period of peace for the last six years. If Gujarat has to have peace, the Hindus have to deliver a decisive message to the Muslims in the form of bombing Masjids (mosques) during Ibadat/Namaz (Muslim congregational prayer) time, torching Muslim localities, targeting individual Muslims who venture out of their Mohallas (localities), and above all and at least enforce a total economic Boycott of the Muslims. Only such actions can deter the terrorists from further attacks. Remember this is a global war with the Muslims and in any war, victory comes only when the enemy is either entirely annihilated or the survivors surrender to accept the victor’s terms. The enemy is “Muslims”, and victory can be had only after they are either all annihilated, or accept terms by giving up Islam. This is mortal combat with the Muslims. At least now you Kafirs should act upon your survival instinct and prove that you are sagacious and astute human beings. Our message to all Kafirs: “Only when you ensure the death or surrender of all Muslims across the globe, can we ensure peace, prosperity and progress across the globe. O Kafirs, Awaken your astute courage to survive, before it is too late!”

- Hindutva Team
on behalf of hindutva.com

so a group that is clearly anti-muslim, is possibly responsible and is portrayed in the western media as a muslim linked terrorist group

deju vu


riding the coattails of fear?

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Nov 27, 2008 8:11:59 PM | 22

Regarding the recent bombing in Mumbai. You may or may not be aware of the cae of Kenneth Haywood, a man implicated in earlier bombings in Ahmadebad:

kenneth haywood

kenhaywood

Posted by: brian | Nov 27, 2008 8:35:48 PM | 23

It is interesting that this group you mention also use RDX as seen in the email linked .

quote: At least three retired army officers have till now been detained by the ATS for having been actively involved, mainly in terms of necessary trainings and supply of the explosives – RDX. And at least one of them, retired Army officer Major Prabhakar Kulkarni, is/was actively engaged with the institute.

http://www.sacw.net/article195.html

Posted by: Benny | Nov 27, 2008 9:07:28 PM | 24

Red band thing?

Yes, that's predominantly a Hindu thing but not necessarily Hindu. If you go to Ajmer Dargah, the amulets are a bunch of thread tied around the wrists. My muslim colleague got one for my son as a good luck charm for his health. Though I don't think any nutter liked sufi saints.

Good catch though.

Posted by: shanks | Nov 27, 2008 9:32:32 PM | 25

b,

The only flaw I see, is the odds of taking out the 4 people who knew a lot about the Malegoan blasts. That presumes a lot of conditions being met and that they could successfully be taken out.

Posted by: shanks | Nov 27, 2008 9:36:57 PM | 26

Why are all conspiracy theories always more logical then official version?

Posted by: vbo | Nov 27, 2008 10:01:35 PM | 27

There are surely still some Eliot Nesses’s (iconic) out there dedicated to fighting the ruthless gangster mentality and their carnage in this world. That Hemant Karkare is one such individual is not a known fact to me but the record surely indicates that he and the ATS have made a significant negative impact on organized crime in their local. This is impermissible to the ruthless in their ascendance to yet higher power.

Is there any question that the norm for global corporations is the most nefarious ways of a well run mafia mob? World class mafia have become the most ruthless in the realm of the global corporate world.

In the hotbed of favorable gangster protection legislation, the US, they are certainly in the ascendancy. Not so in other nations of the world. India is known for it’s anti-corporate sentiments. Whether it’s that they have been burned enough by the colonials or they just have the cultural maturity to detect the flim-flam I don’t know but it’s a nightmare for the corporate globalist that needs to secure total control of the local and Gandhi like small scale way of life in India. How can I doubt that the BJP plays into this deal?


A summary of b’s points make this obvious to me:

The investigation of this years blast in Malegaon was carried out by the Anti Terrorism Squad from the state capitol Mumbai under its chief Hemant Karkare.

Two days ago Karkare received death threats:

Yesterday Hemant Karkare was killed when he responded to the attack on the Taj hotel

All together four top anti-terror policemen were killed.

All four were in the first response wave against the attacks.

In total 14 police were killed and 26 wounded.

These are high numbers. How many of them were ambushed?

The right-wing, Hindu-nationalist BJP party is competing with the ruling Congress party for upcoming elections. A big election theme is Islamic terrorism.

The investigation of this years blast in Malegaon was carried out by the Anti Terrorism Squad from the state capitol Mumbai under its chief Hemant Karkare. It figured that a right-wing nationalist Hindu groups, which included some former higher ranking military and had some ties to the BJP, was the culprit.

The attack, designed to created fight-outs with police, killed the man who was the biggest danger for the BJP as he was revealing Hindu terrorism and made the BJP campaign against Muslim terrorism seem bigot.

The criminal psychopathic mentality is ruling in US corporate ethos and is reaching out to every potentially profitable niche in the world. Fighting and thwarting this deviance is crucial. As with Ossetia early detection and analysis are a keystone in this battle.

Posted by: Juannie | Nov 27, 2008 10:14:26 PM | 28

Now, what say you debs? NYT http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/28/world/asia/28mumbai.html?hp>pandering to the pro-jews?

Ok. I'm a slight asshole. "Framed" as it is, our bold "western press" seems to favor, uh, a master narrative.

But let's not jump to conclusions, brothers, sisters!

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 27, 2008 10:58:57 PM | 29

The photos of the extremists, though I've seen only three or so, such as in Jeff65's #19 (but this morning everywhere), reveal no signs of being Muslim to me. No beards, no shaved heads, no Islamic clothing, no physical types from the north-west (Pakistan).

According to this: Witnesses describe Mumbai attackers' arrival by sea, they said they came from Kerala. I don't suppose they were telling the truth, but the physical characteristics do correspond.

Just a thought.

Posted by: Alex | Nov 28, 2008 2:26:11 AM | 30


There was no clear target
The places these terrorists ended up were significant.

Of the dead only 6 were foreigners, of the wounded 7
Nothing certain here yet.

The attacks, even while there were a lot of casualties, seem not designed to cause the maximum number of dead.
A lot of anonymous deaths may not have been a primary goal,but even on this scale the terror was significant. How do the number of deaths ascertain possible suspects? A hundred and more dead is significant.

There were no suicide bombings.
These terrorists faced almost certain death in their attacks. As you stated,"the attackers did not care or prepare to get away either. Instead they waited for the police and then had a shootout at each place." Sounds like suicide to me. Yeah, no strap on bombs, car bombs, or any big bombs were used. 911 had no big bombs either.


Apparently there was no hostage taking either.
How do you know there were no attempts at hostage taking?
What makes you so sure that foreigners were not targeted for hostages at some point by at least some of the terrorists?

For maximum international media attention thanksgiving is not a good day.
What is a good day? Seems good enough.

None of your statements above or my associated comments support or discredit your theory which has much merit. But these terrorist actions, if in some way are supported by BJP, seem awful extreme and quite prone to backfire as Alamet and hupplon point out. How much hate toward Muslims, as a people, exist in the minds of those in power at BJP? Or was all this just to take out Karkare and a few others - couldn't they do it some easier way?

In the spirit of real change, I wish to not even further the use of the descriptions "Muslim" terrorists or "Hindu" terrorists. Terrorism is terrorism and both Hindu and Muslim leaders have renounced such tactics.

Juannie,
Good point. No doubt, just as in the U.S., racists use capitalist methods and often terrorism in the extreme to subjugate. Most likely, the reverse is not true. That is, class struggle/poverty/subjugation/terrorism does not necessarily promote a desire among a population towards capitalism.

Posted by: Rick | Nov 28, 2008 2:34:46 AM | 31

@Rick -

The places these terrorists ended up were significant.

Significant, but not for maximum effect. The Mumbai stock exchange or some government building would have been more significant.

Of the dead only 6 were foreigners, of the wounded 7

The official numbers linked above. While the 'western' media write about an attack on foreigners, the numbers do not confirm this.

high numbers of casualties

Yes, it was a terrorist attack with some numbers of dead and wounded, but again, why such 'restrain'? Why not go for maximum effect? This is unusual.

suicide bombing

Again it is very unusual the way it was done. Usually such attacks are either
- outright suicide bombings
- hostage taking to get some demand fulfilled, free prisoners or such
- hit and escape

This was attack and let them kill me - very unsual

hostage taking

No demands were issued and the BBC link above says no deliberate hostage taking except for some random folks who happened to be in this or that room.

International media attention

The stock exchange would have been more significant for that. Starting the action in the morning instead of 10pm local time too.

---

What I am looking at are patterns of 'usual' terrorist attacks and this one does not fit at all. It is something new. That makes it significant and suspicious.

Also - these guys seem to have some some training. One is still at the Taj as I write. 48 hours against massive police assault. Incredible.

As others above, I dismiss the coming by boat stuff. To complicate. Why not come by train, car or whatever?

Posted by: b | Nov 28, 2008 3:24:06 AM | 32

As others above, I dismiss the coming by boat stuff. To complicate. Why not come by train, car or whatever?

You may be right, but there seem to be independent witnesses of this, as link in #30. However they talk about eight or so extremists, and eight doesn't seem enough for all that was done. Perhaps multiple arrival routes.

A sea arrival looks ok to me; you don't get seen by others until the last moment. In India, on land, there are plenty to see you.

Posted by: Alex | Nov 28, 2008 3:37:44 AM | 33

The BBC has one 'expert' who thinks the unusual 'style' of this attack points to Kashmir: So what is new about Mumbai, November 2008?

The obvious novelty is the use of frontal assault tactics instead of timed explosive devices.

This is new in the urban Indian context
...
But frontal assaults, usually carried out by two-man teams firing semi-automatic rifles and lobbing grenades, were the favoured tactic of the insurgency in Indian-administered Kashmir between 1999 and 2003.

The Washington Post also mentions the usual aspect of this attack and attributes it (why?) to "outside help": Attributes Suggest Outside Help

Counterterrorism officials and experts said the scale, sophistication and targets involved in the Mumbai attacks were markedly different from previous terrorist plots in India and suggested the gunmen had received training from outside the country. But they cautioned it was too soon to tell who may have masterminded the operation, despite an assertion from a previously unknown Islamist radical group.
...
The shootings in Mumbai were far from the worst to strike India's financial capital; bombings in 1993 and 2006 each killed more than 180 people.
...
"Anything could be in the cards," said Magnus Ranstorp, a terrorism analyst at the Swedish National Defense College. "With most terrorist attacks, it's relatively clear-cut who is involved. In this case, it could be all sorts of constellations that are at work."

Posted by: b | Nov 28, 2008 3:59:33 AM | 34

For maximum international media attention thanksgiving is not a good day.
On this point, I beg to differ. Apart from N America, no one gives a flying fuck about Thanksgiving. So, the attacks are quite big news in most non-US media. In fact, the attackers could even have come to the conclusion that attacking while Wall Street was closed was a better way to gain exposure, since it would limit the risk of a market crash taking the headline when they were busy having a showdown.
Besides, attacking at 10PM instead of 10AM meant they would get instant massive coverage in evening European TV news - and hopefully in US ones as well.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Nov 28, 2008 4:47:53 AM | 35

"There were no suicide bombings"

I'm fairly certain - please correct me if I'm mistaken - that there has never been a suicide bombing on Indian soil, with the sole exception of the assassination of Rajiv Ghandi by a Tamil Tiger operative.

Even in Pakistan and Afghanistan, suicide bombings are very recent additions to the terrorist tactical portfolio.

There are lots of echoes in the style of this attack, from the Tet offensive to the 2001 assault on the Indian parliament, to the 2006 Samarra mosque bombing, to 1970's Palestinian commando-style actions to a similar-style of attack conducted in Thailand a couple of years ago ( altho' far less pro and less well-armed and mounted against the local security apparatus in the south of the country ). I don't think it really helps trying to force things into a stereotypical pattern, deviation from which is a cause for suspicion - I mean, seriously, what is the pattern of a "usual" terrorist attack?

Skepticism regarding the dissemination of memes, conventional wisdom and "dodgy" information is one thing; trying to connect this attack to Hindu terrorists who have previously mounted crude-ish bomb attacks against specifically Muslim targets ( ie mosques ) is another.

The attack has now been ongoing for some 48 hours; there are reports of 24-28 bodies in one of the hotels, some gunmen are still at large, operations are continuing at the Taj Hotel and there is no sense that this is definitively over.

Clearly, hostages were taken at various locations.

The official death toll is now well over 140, 300 plus injured, with more to come without doubt - that's a lot of bodies; I don't understand why this would be in any way suss - notionally, death tolls can always be higher, perhaps one should just be thankful that the "maximum possible video game kill figure" never gets reached. I think that you're making the "utilitarian" mistake that the goal of a terrorist attack is the complete maximisation of casualties, whilst ignoring other dimensions that come into play. Attacks on the Bombay local transport network have killed far greater numbers - to me it would be personal as I've used those networks; the bulk of foreigners/the Mumbai elite don't, as it's too crowded, chaotic and smelly. Killing 200 Mumbai commuters is a "local" event ( I apologise if this sounds cold ).

I don't understand why the sites targeted are in any way suspicious either - you're simply reflecting a particular bias that the BSE is somehow more important than the Taj Palace, when I would assert that its cultural, psychological and symbolic significance is far, far greater ( note, I've never been to the BSE, but the Taj Palace and some of the other sites attacked are well known to me and have a great deal of resonance to a very wide range of people - both local and foreign ).

Posted by: dan | Nov 28, 2008 6:03:00 AM | 36

Thanks dan and all others - I'll defer to your knowledge.

I wrote 'Here is my conspiracy theory:' It may be totally wrong. Then again ...

Posted by: b | Nov 28, 2008 6:41:06 AM | 37

Can't keep Americans away from a murder story?

http://qlipoth.blogspot.com/2008/11/curious-case-of-ken-haywood.html

Posted by: andrew | Nov 28, 2008 7:02:10 AM | 38

What else is going on that needs to be distracted from?

The ongoing finance collapse? If things look dire in the rich end of the world, imagined what it must look like if you have no safety net at all.

Posted by: a swedish kind of death | Nov 28, 2008 7:18:39 AM | 39

After reading your two postings on the Mumbai incident I must say that I disagree that this is some isolated attack gone astray besides that issue I agree on much of the rest of the postings. This is absolutely a terroristic attack on Indies financial sector and also upon western targets of opportunity. From the start it appeared that some highly trained and motivated people planned and struck at the height of the American holiday to maximize media attention and gain some unknown agenda besides just kill some westerners. The culprits (terrorists) obviously knew their targets and also got paid off (or their families) well enough that they knew that they didn't need a round way ticket. To me it seems that this is almost as severely bad as the Spanish train bombings and the U.K. trams bombings. Now let us just hope that this doesn't explode into another Pakistan India war. Which perhaps someone would like to see for some unknown reason. Just my two cents.

Posted by: whisker | Nov 28, 2008 9:43:55 AM | 40

Yes, I really wonder who is interested on weakening Pakistan and its government and if possible even dismantling the country into small states ... without nuclear weapons of course.

From the conspirancy point of view there are two events that happened there:

A) A terrorist attack to multiple targets that is being reported with many confusing details (at least from the western media sources). Most of reports seems to be related to the seizing by a small number of terrorist of two large hotels (with western foreigners) and a jewish related building. But it's quite unclear if there were actually hostages taken or not. And now knowing how many foreigners where staying in those hotels the current death tool seems surprisingly low given how easily they massacred other people. This event has been on going for at least 48 hours.

B) Four 'random' police officers got killed at the early moments of the first event. For some unlucky reason those top officers are related with on going investigations about a 'conspiracy' to blame terrorist attacks on muslims that affects the main oposition party (ultranacionalist) and militar officers (or ex militar officers). And I'm certain that one of the operational rules of the Mombai police is to rush top officers to the heat of a terrorist attack ... and get killed in an ambush.

Posted by: ThePaper | Nov 28, 2008 11:53:30 AM | 41

Yesterday's bout of terrorist attacks in India just goes to show that the US presence in Afghanistan isn't doing a damn thing to stamp out terrorism in Central Asia. If anything, our presence in this region is having the opposite effect on terrorism. Our presence there is igniting a domino effect in this region -- meaning that as our military forces fan the flames of terrorism in Afghanistan, these flames are spreading into Pakistan, which, in turn, are spreading into India.

But the hawks in the US State Department, with the media pundits acting as their cheerleaders, aren't spinning this story of terrorism in this way. Instead, they are spinning this story in such a way as to say that these terrorist attacks in India oughta give us even more reason to fight terrorism in Central Asia. What troubles me most about the way the media pundits are covering this story is that they are downplaying the fact that our war on terrorism has spread into two nontrivial nuke nations. So, they are, in turn, downplaying the fact that our efforts to fight terrorists in this region is likely to lead us to nowhere but a damn nuke war!

Posted by: Cynthia | Nov 28, 2008 12:06:42 PM | 42

People,

Can you all pipe down about nuke wars? Please? If war is a racket, then this is generally a no brainer with respect to nukes.

The distance, as the crow flies from Delhi to Karachi/Islamabad is less than 1000 km, which is less than 20 minutes for a nuke tipped missile.

The rich and the powerful are within 20 minutes of destruction of each other in case of nukes. these kind, on both sides of the divide, know if anyone starts it between them, they're toast. literally and are the first ones to.

Will they?

All the posturing is for "whitey" and a page from N. Korea's playbook.


Posted by: shanks | Nov 28, 2008 12:46:48 PM | 43

The only interesting part of this horror of people killing each other for entertainment, for that is what this sort of attack aimed at generating publicity must be considered as, is the inability of the mainstream media to construct a durable, credible meme on the fly. Oh they will eventually decide that this is 'muslim terror' whatever the real causes were, but in the meantime it is interesting to watch them make a mess of out of their hastily constructed collection of sparse facts, half truths and outright lie.

The bitter and twisted man/woman that was screeching about the ultra-orthodox jewish centre missed a great piece of reportage on the BBC last night. The BBC showed one commentator who was enthusing about the cheers from the crowd as the Israeli commandos arrived and how pleased the audience was to see the Israelis arrive, that the commandos despite their masked faces were giving deprecating waves to the crowd. The reporter emphasised several times about how pleased the people of Mumbai were to see help from the elite Israeli anti terror unit. That must have been recorded some time earlier because then we cut to another beeb reporter mournfully describing that at least 5 hostages possibly more had died in the 'liberation' of the centre by an "Indian Anti Terror Squad" and this morning (NZ time) the papers said :

Israel's ambassador to India, Mark Sofer, said they believed there were up to nine hostages inside. Their fate was not clear. Sofer denied reports that Israeli commandos were taking part in the operation.

That was the interim line later we learn that all the hostages are dead. The two year old child which we were told was released by the hostage takers, before the attack, is now deemed to have been 'rescued'. And the denials of Israeli commando involvement have become considerably more emphatic.

Oh well shit happens can't cheapen the brand by having it associated with fuck-ups. Remember Entebbe, not Munich.

All night the BBC commentators were harping on about the Pakistan connection and the Pakistani authorities were denying that Pakistan either officially, or 'unofficially' had anything to do with it. The BBC commentators completely ignore what is said and then hammer on as if the Pakistani Foreign Minister has claimed responsibility for the attack.
Pakistan officials' comments like, "Sadly India now knows first hand the type of horror we confront daily" are treated with contempt by the english paid liars.

Later on it surfaces that one of the dead fighters may have a Pakistani connection whatever than means - perhaps his great uncle moved to Karachi in 48. The bulk of those identified thus far are indian nationals. Then we cop the kicker.

Some of the dead fighters hold english passports. Oops!
What can that mean?

The BBC quickly skip over the implication that if one dead fighter having vague links to Pakistan is a possible trigger for an Indo-Pakistani war, does that mean some of the dead being english is going to trigger the great retribution for the Raj?

Of course not - england is one of India's biggest markets for their mass produced crap. Still the look of a rabbit caught in the headlights from senior BBC liar and propagandist Nik Gowing was about the only light moment in the hours of tedious anti-Pakistan innuendo.

There are insufficient facts to speculate on the real source of the attacks but one thing we can be sure of is that the inevitable result of this will that by invasion or 'invitation', big mobs of foreign troops are gonna be occupying Pakistan by the end of '09.

Silly silly india hasn't thought this through. This war on terror spreads in a manner much like the fallacious 'domino theory' amerika claimed would cause all of IndoChina to 'go communist' in the 1960's.

The invasion of Pakistan by amerika, england, Nato or even some mercenary outfit out of a tame Islamic regime will inevitably lead to increase violence by some of India's muslim population.

As I said in another post India has 140 million Islamic citizens, if even a tiny percentage of them decide that they must help save Pakistan, India would descend into a chaos that would make Mumbai 09 seem minor in comparison.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 28, 2008 2:17:43 PM | 44

nah the invaders have got no money left.

if anybody inherits this it will be China, where did those Nepalese Maoists come from by the way?

Posted by: outsider | Nov 28, 2008 2:41:26 PM | 45

"There are insufficient facts to speculate on the real source of the attacks but one thing we can be sure of is that the inevitable result of this will that by invasion or 'invitation', big mobs of foreign troops are gonna be occupying Pakistan by the end of '09"

Most conspiracy kooks never make verifiable predictions, so this is rather refreshing! And yea, occupying a gazzillion more moslems is *exactly* what Obama is likely to want for the coming year...

"The BBC quickly skip over the implication that if one dead fighter having vague links to Pakistan is a possible trigger for an Indo-Pakistani war, does that mean some of the dead being english is going to trigger the great retribution for the Raj?"

They are "english" in the sense that the British were silly enough to grant them residency, and you really know better than being so silly as to push this line of argument yourself.

"Oh well shit happens can't cheapen the brand by having it associated with fuck-ups. Remember Entebbe, not Munich."

Why would a German operational fuckup cheapen the brand of Israeli forces?

"This war on terror spreads in a manner much like the fallacious 'domino theory' amerika claimed would cause all of IndoChina to 'go communist' in the 1960's."

IndoChina:

* Cambodia (Went communist)
* Laos (Went communist)
* Vietnam (Went communist)

Silly yanks! (I guess you could include Thailand as well, and the UK et al did manage to snuff out that communist rebellion...)

"Some of the dead fighters hold english passports. Oops!
What can that mean?"

Most likely it means that lots of Pakistanis have immigrated to the UK.

"And the denials of Israeli commando involvement have become considerably more emphatic."

Funny, this is the first thing I hear anywhere of Israelis being involved in any rescue operation. In a standard-issue anti-western online conspiracy theory - imagine that!

Posted by: hupplon | Nov 28, 2008 3:25:53 PM | 46

Was that sarcasm, hupplon? The reference to "conspiracy kooks," I mean. Was that sarcasm?

I'm just trying to sort out personality/perspective. I don't want to criticize your post if it's all in jest.

Posted by: micah pyre | Nov 28, 2008 3:38:22 PM | 47

"Was that sarcasm, hupplon? The reference to "conspiracy kooks," I mean. Was that sarcasm?"

It should certainly be taken in a light-hearted manner - I appriciate the entertainment value of a good conspiracy as much as the next guy. But I wouldn't call it sarcasm, because I really do think people making actual predictions based on their scenarios is refreshing.

Posted by: hupplon | Nov 28, 2008 3:46:11 PM | 48

Actually there is more than a thousand dead poeple in this
attack and it is been cover up to us by the local authoritys
of India and everybody in the intel service around the world
are very aware of the true numbers.
It is a force way of trying to start a war between India and
Pakistan.

Posted by: erik roy | Nov 28, 2008 8:58:18 PM | 49

"And the denials of Israeli commando involvement have become considerably more emphatic."

Thou protesteth too much!

This attack's got the Mossad written all over it. In the end, they are the ones who gain (qui bono?)the most from having Hindus and Moslems at odds with one another.

Posted by: TP | Nov 28, 2008 9:12:52 PM | 50

Good article, but it is "cui bono", not "qui bono".

Posted by: RH | Nov 28, 2008 9:33:51 PM | 51

I found the link to this page from a website I visit now and then. Whatreallyhappened.com
Tired tonight and have nothing to say except, this is one of the best blog pages. You are all intelligent and quite courteous to each other. A breath of fresh air. I hope to contribute in the future.

Posted by: stephen | Nov 28, 2008 9:59:44 PM | 52

Debs above:"Incidentally I don't think Obama needs convincing, it is becoming woefully apparent that Obama is reagan the second, that is his art lies in convincing the voters, the actual policy decisions are made by his shadowy backers.”

Debs makes an important point here that I wish to expand upon. One of the reasons I enjoy the comments at MOA is that many here believe like myself that the U.S. is actually causing terrorism. There are firm examples of direct actions, but the biggest ad poster for someone to become a terrorist is a general mantra of nonsense, that is, the U.S. "War on Terror". If one's family is killed in collateral damage by U.S. bombs falling from 20 to 30 thousand feet above, such trauma could easily turn any moderate into another terrorist. Yet, President –elect Obama has been in the unique position of being able to come into office with the support of many outside the "western world", and in particular, he has been uniquely accepted by many in the Muslim and Hindu World.

I worry Obama is losing credibility. Obvious examples come to mind. Pilot less U.S. drones dropping bombs in Pakistan needs to be loudly addressed as an outrage by President elect Obama. Similarly, the war in Afghanistan needs to be looked at as something the U.S. must immediately extinguish. Instead, we continue to hear Obama calling for more troops to be moved into Afghanistan. Perhaps not so obvious, but Obama should have addressed these latest terrorist actions in India differently. Here is an opportunity to ease the tension/cooperation between Pakistan and India. Perhaps something is happening behind the scenes, but so far, all I have heard from Obama on the Mumbai attacks has been fairly standard rhetoric. Unfortunately, the corporate press is already framing the scene for our new President.


Posted by: Rick | Nov 28, 2008 10:05:26 PM | 53

Here is some additional information which might make your theory even more valid.

1. NSG commandos called in after 8/10 hours (after the death of the police officers).

2. Some of the officers were against the Mumbai underworld which has connections with both the Hindu extremists (shiv sena/etc) and links to Dubai/Dawood Ibrahim.

Links:
Malegaon blast case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Malegaon_blasts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29_September_2008_western_India_bombings


Police Officers murdered were all finding issues with Hindu extremists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemant_Karkare
http://onlybombay.blogspot.com/2007/10/encounter-specialist-vijay-salaskar.html

Interesting Article.
http://www.prempanicker.com/index.php?/site/an_officer_and_gentleman_and_a_moron/
http://news.webindia123.com/news/articles/India/20081127/1115181.html

Posted by: | Nov 28, 2008 10:11:10 PM | 54

Here is some additional information which might make your theory even more valid.

1. NSG commandos called in after 8/10 hours (after the death of the police officers).

2. Some of the officers were against the Mumbai underworld which has connections with both the Hindu extremists (shiv sena/etc) and links to Dubai/Dawood Ibrahim.

Links:
Malegaon blast case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Malegaon_blasts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29_September_2008_western_India_bombings


Police Officers murdered were all finding issues with Hindu extremists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemant_Karkare
http://onlybombay.blogspot.com/2007/10/encounter-specialist-vijay-salaskar.html

Interesting Article.
http://www.prempanicker.com/index.php?/site/an_officer_and_gentleman_and_a_moron/
http://news.webindia123.com/news/articles/India/20081127/1115181.html

Posted by: mowghli | Nov 28, 2008 10:11:58 PM | 55

It was Al-Qaeda I tell you! Led by that evil Muslim Adam Pearlman (aka "Adam Ghadan"-a zionist jew terrorist from California and leader of the cia/mossad created boogeyman "Al Qaeda") working with some guy named Osama Bin Laden who died in 2001 with assistance from Lee Harvey Oswald and little green men from Mars!

It was Al Qaeda I tell you!

Posted by: Marty | Nov 29, 2008 12:39:51 AM | 56

Thanks to all for making this a useful and provocative thread. In particular thanks to Brian @ 23 for the links to Ken Haywood, and the Campbell White "school", which has all the ear-marks of being some sort of DIA cut-out and which was outed in the aftermath on an earlier act of terrorism by none other than Hemant Karkare of the Mumbai ATS, one of the "illustrious" victims of this latest atrocity. There is more than enough material here for both "serious historians" and "avid conspiracy theorists". I suspect that, as Debs and others have suggested, we will be able to conclude (not prove) the true matrix of the underlying conspiracy when we see the international repercussions over the next few months (just as, for many, the real purpose of 9/11 became "obvious" only with the invasion of Iraq). It we see nothing more than a BJP victory and anti-Islamic activity in India, then , b 's hypothesis will gain plausibility. If, instead, we see an attempt to dismember Pakistan, or, less plausibly, Iran, then it will be more pertinent to contemplate the well-known "universal objects" in the category of subversive activities.

Again, at present we can only make tentative judgments based on the "promulgated wisdom" of the "anti-terrorist" community and its media acolytes. Here, as Debs points out, the highlighting of the heli-transported shock troops landing on the roof of the Lubavitscher Center might well merit deeper analysis. The scenes were, of course, excellent TV material, much better than a mere listing of the other skirmishes or even the smoke pouring out of the Taj Mahal Hotel. So there was an "objective" reason to highlight them. Nevertheless, even the slightest bit of doubt about the independence of sources like the BBC or CNN from their intelligence community sources (masters?) gives pause about the "intended effect" of the repeated screening such scenes. Conversely, it has been almost pathetic to see the reaction on Iran's Press TV outlet, where at least one "anchorman" openly and repeatedly complained that since such attacks obviously bring widely diffused discredit to Islam, it is implausible that convinced Muslims would carry them out. This may be wishful thinking, but it is no less plausible than other suggested configurations of responsibility.

It is easy to forget that India has suffered several major terrorist attacks in recent years (including the memorable assault on the Indian parliament) but has, so far, resisted lashing out at neighboring Islamic states in response to those attacks. One can only hope that this restraint will not be abandoned, and that the guilty parties will be brought to justice as quickly as possible, but with due process of law, something which the United States has egregiously failed to do under Bush. No state, even those with functional democratic institutions, is free of defects or unresolved historical issues, but one can hope that free and open discussion will impede the taking root of destructive national myths (HT to the late Levy-Strauss) to be then manipulated by our 21-st century shamans as priestly classes and aristocracies have ever exploited national mythologies for their all too worldly ends.

Posted by: Hannah K. O'Luthon | Nov 29, 2008 4:07:45 AM | 57

http://www.shturem.org/index.php?section=news&id=31585

“When the news of top police officials getting killed flashed in the television, we heard loud noises from the flat. It seemed they were celebrating,” Anand Raorane, a resident
in a building opposite Nariman House, said.

I wonder why they were celebrating.

Posted by: anon | Nov 29, 2008 9:52:00 AM | 58

Even Pakistan does better in such hostage situation. Sixty-plus hours of scrubbing hotel while fighting 3-4 terrorists, and only 80 deaths in Taj Hotel is too low a number. I have heard that on a given night there are between 1000-1200 Mumbaikers dine, excluding the hotel guests. Therefore, I think there must be over 400 deaths in Taj only, but most of them would be Indians.

Effective use of crowd controlling gas was not used, but instead National Security Guards (NSG) burnt the room to expel one or two terrorist. That seems implausible at best. Yes, implausible since only two NSG deaths were reported.

Nevertheless, I admire the NSG, Anti-Terror Squad (ATS) specialist, and paramilitary who had to fight while removing dead bodies. On the spot scenario is very difficult to comprehend in real time manner. However, foreigner's account does support the viscious, poison-filled acts of terrorists.

Shame that NSG or ATS have no chemical warfare (mixture of 3-methylfentanyl, halothane, benzodiazepine) like that was used by Russia over hostage crisis of House of Culture Theatre (Nord-Ost act). But that is Indian way of doing thing -- slowly but not lethargic at this time.

On the other hand, Indian Muslims must be spied upon and phone conversations must be taped and analyzed. Not that Hindu majority does not believe in their plight of poverty and lack of education and access to job market, the Madrasas must be abolished based on hint of subversive activity.

Additionally, India must repeal two-religion laws. India cannot harbor _ANY_ Muslim laws. Such laws give rise to exploding population, grown from thin 15 million during partition to sizable 180million now, of which 25 millions poured over from Bangladesh in last 35 years.

Finally, Mumbai Hostage Crisis of November 26, 2008 exposed India to ill-prepared state to a level that the next crisis could involve even larger number of innocent people. Lack of administrative and management cohesion can be visualized by apathetic police squad waiting and watching as by-stander. Further, I could see not more than three or four fire brigade trucks that could not even pump water to a level of 140 ft (47m) even though the hotel is barely 1000ft (250m) away from the Bay of Mumbai. I cannot think but India's IT has to get into this to help the country out of its archaic and despotic politics, if it will invite further foreign capital infusion.

Posted by: Siobhan | Nov 29, 2008 11:15:12 AM | 59

This is weird.
It is sad they bought( per the store clerk) food & alcohol worth about $ 250.00 that doesnt sound Muslum to me.

Posted by: jakapakaj | Nov 29, 2008 4:01:10 PM | 60


Arundhati Roy predicted Mumbai?

Just food for thought, in other words, supplemental reading. I haven't been keeping up with this, as I've been watching other events...

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Nov 29, 2008 4:14:54 PM | 61

Who were the blond guys involved, Mossad? They're always starting S@#$ all over the world, including 9/11.

Posted by: escapefromobamastan | Dec 1, 2008 1:59:39 PM | 62

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